WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.410 --> 00:00:04.110 align:center line:-1Interviewer: Hello! Thank you for accepting my interview. 2 00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:07.420 align:center line:-1 Sure! Thank you for interviewing me. 3 00:00:07.430 --> 00:00:13.260 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: First, could you please tell me the decade of your birth, such as "'30s," "'40s," "'50s," or "'60s"? 4 00:00:13.270 --> 00:00:17.760 align:center line:-1 Me? I'll tell you exactly. I was born in '47. 5 00:00:17.770 --> 00:00:29.220 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Oh, 1947. Could you tell us where you lived in China for the 10 years of the Cultural Revolution, from 1966 to 1976? 6 00:00:29.230 --> 00:00:31.990 align:center line:-1 I was in Shanghai. For the whole [period], I was in Shanghai. 7 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:34.240 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: You were always in Shanghai. 8 00:00:34.250 --> 00:00:38.470 align:center line:-1 Right, except for a period in the Shanghai suburbs. 9 00:00:38.480 --> 00:00:46.430 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: You were born in 1947. Since you've experienced a lot of things, you certainly must have many memories. 10 00:00:46.440 --> 00:01:05.130 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: If I only give you about 10 minutes, what are the clearest memories or the memories or impressions you'd most like to share with us? What would you like to say? 11 00:01:05.140 --> 00:01:09.240 align:center line:-1 May I start now? 12 00:01:09.250 --> 00:01:13.350 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Yes, please go ahead. 13 00:01:13.360 --> 00:01:17.330 align:center line:-1 Should I talk about my family background, identity, and profession? 14 00:01:17.340 --> 00:01:22.810 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: You can, if you like. You could tell me your family background, roughly speaking. 15 00:01:22.820 --> 00:01:29.490 align:center line:-1 My family was a workers' family that had problems. 16 00:01:29.500 --> 00:01:32.880 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: A workers' family that had problems? 17 00:01:32.890 --> 00:01:43.650 align:center line:-1 Right, but I don't need to go into detail. I was born in 1947; in 1966 I had just graduated from high school. 18 00:01:43.660 --> 00:01:53.690 align:center line:-1 I was in the class of '66. The Cultural Revolution started in 1966. 19 00:01:53.700 --> 00:02:06.490 align:center line:-1 I had no work assignment, so I stayed at home until 1968. In 1968, I went to a farm. It was in the Shanghai suburbs, in Chongming. 20 00:02:06.500 --> 00:02:19.540 align:center line:-1 [I was in] Chongming up until 1974, and then I came back [to the city]. After I came back, I worked in a factory for three years. 21 00:02:19.550 --> 00:02:31.490 align:center line:-1 In 1977 [I took] the university entrance examination, and went to school. That's a summary of my experience. 22 00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:47.100 align:center line:-1 My experience wasn't the typical regular person's experience. It was rather unusual. How should I put it? 23 00:02:47.110 --> 00:02:55.620 align:center line:-1 [My experience] was somewhat unique. I think I'll speak from a rather broad topic. 24 00:02:55.630 --> 00:03:15.050 align:center line:-1 As far as the Cultural Revolution goes, it started in '66. Today, how do most researchers and scholars from outside China view the Cultural Revolution? 25 00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:29.990 align:center line:-1 Generally speaking, the average person's impression of the Cultural Revolution involves thousands of people holding up Quotations from Chairman Mao. 26 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:39.400 align:center line:-1 Another [impression] is that the Cultural Revolution was a disaster; many people were struggled against and imprisoned, and experienced terrible hardships. 27 00:03:39.410 --> 00:03:45.990 align:center line:-1 Entire families were exterminated. That's how things were. 28 00:03:46.000 --> 00:04:09.990 align:center line:-1 My point of view is, that opinion is right, but there's another side to it. It seems as if China's ordinary people were cowardly, and there was no resistance. 29 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:21.780 align:center line:-1 There was no deep thinking; they only knew how to wave [Mao's] "little red book." If the authorities told you to do something, you did it. 30 00:04:21.790 --> 00:04:32.050 align:center line:-1 It was insane; people could be killed with no will to resist. At least, many people have this impression. 31 00:04:32.060 --> 00:04:43.730 align:center line:-1 But what I'd like to say is that the actual situation wasn't like that, or at least wasn't exactly like that. 32 00:04:43.740 --> 00:04:55.580 align:center line:-1 It's like looking at a great ocean: the surface of the ocean is calm; sometimes there are waves. 33 00:04:55.590 --> 00:05:03.040 align:center line:-1 But how about the depths of the ocean? There's life there, but you're unable to see it. 34 00:05:03.050 --> 00:05:13.020 align:center line:-1 The Cultural Revolution was like that. In reality, [during] the Cultural Revolution, there were quite a few people who resisted. 35 00:05:13.030 --> 00:05:27.490 align:center line:-1 The entire situation at that time was a complete mess. It could not have gotten any more absurd. 36 00:05:27.500 --> 00:05:40.450 align:center line:-1 I'll speak about myself. In 1966, I had just graduated from high school. To use today's way of speaking, I was a student of the sciences; I really liked science. 37 00:05:40.460 --> 00:05:47.240 align:center line:-1 I liked humanities, too, of course; I read books, but primarily [I liked] science. 38 00:05:47.250 --> 00:05:56.010 align:center line:-1 In the Cultural Revolution, loyalty to Chairman Mao was the main thing. 39 00:05:56.020 --> 00:06:09.390 align:center line:-1 This was true in the entire Cultural Revolution, from 1966 to 1976. This theoretical structure in itself was incredibly absurd. 40 00:06:09.400 --> 00:06:18.990 align:center line:-1 At the time, how did I start down this road [of pondering the Cultural Revolution]? Actually, it was simple. 41 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:31.690 align:center line:-1 In the world of physics, everyone knows Marie Curie; many people use her as an model and admire her; she was quite noble. 42 00:06:31.700 --> 00:06:45.340 align:center line:-1 Since Marie Curie is so great and worthy, you ought to use her as an example, and of course, many people do. 43 00:06:45.350 --> 00:06:58.990 align:center line:-1 At the time, my thinking was this: Mao Zedong was mighty; he had established New China. 44 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:06.850 align:center line:-1 Students in the graduating class of 1966 were 18, 19 years old. 45 00:07:06.860 --> 00:07:20.530 align:center line:-1 As we had studied the greatness of Marie Curie, so should we study the greatness of Mao Zedong, right? 46 00:07:20.540 --> 00:07:37.210 align:center line:-1 What was so great about Mao Zedong? In his youth, he'd had the courage to critique the nation; he had coined many famous phrases. 47 00:07:37.220 --> 00:07:46.660 align:center line:-1 So, we needed to study him. At the time, I spent two years in the library reading. 48 00:07:46.670 --> 00:07:56.690 align:center line:-1 I read what Mao Zedong was doing at the time, read Lu Xun's books, and saw what their criticisms of society were. 49 00:07:56.700 --> 00:08:12.430 align:center line:-1 I read a lot of books at that time. When he was young, Mao Zedong went to survey many areas. He established Hunan Self-Study University. 50 00:08:12.440 --> 00:08:18.350 align:center line:-1 It was simple: since Mao Zedong had acted in this way, so should we. 51 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:30.230 align:center line:-1 We should also write with passion, and critique our nation. Go inspect society, set up schools, etc. 52 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:35.510 align:center line:-1 But why did we have to be loyal to him? Wasn't it like this? 53 00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:37.500 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: So, this is what you were thinking at the time, right? 54 00:08:37.510 --> 00:08:50.830 align:center line:-1 Right, this was the first step in my reflection. At that time, I wrote a somewhat long essay called "Glory's Exemplar." 55 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:54.990 align:center line:-1 Who was "Glory's Exemplar"? It was Mao Zedong. 56 00:08:55.000 --> 00:09:00.820 align:center line:-1 But my [essay] "Glory's Exemplar" was different from how everyone else sang the praises of Mao Zedong. 57 00:09:00.830 --> 00:09:16.990 align:center line:-1 I wrote about what he had done in his youth, how he had gone to many different places, how he had set up the Self-Study University, and so on. 58 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:33.320 align:center line:-1 [I wrote that] it was different when compared to the situation [at the time]. [At the time] we only knew to memorize his quotations -- was that stupid, or what? No one thought too deeply! 59 00:09:33.330 --> 00:09:44.410 align:center line:-1 This essay I wrote was quite long, probably at least twenty or thirty thousand characters. After I'd written it, I traced it onto stencil paper. 60 00:09:44.420 --> 00:09:47.100 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Did you carve it onto a steel plate [for printing] yourself? 61 00:09:47.110 --> 00:10:01.650 align:center line:-1 Yes. I was preparing to distribute it. However, I was still a bit afraid; I didn't dare, since it didn't fit the mainstream [point of view]. 62 00:10:01.660 --> 00:10:13.110 align:center line:-1 Under these circumstances, I kept setting it aside. I held onto the stencil paper until the time I went abroad, and then I burned it. 63 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:17.450 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Do you still have the original draft? 64 00:10:17.460 --> 00:10:21.100 align:center line:-1 I don't have it at hand, but it's still out there in the world. 65 00:10:21.110 --> 00:10:25.990 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: You ought to give it to a library to preserve. 66 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:32.690 align:center line:-1 It's still out there, but it's not in my possession. 67 00:10:32.700 --> 00:10:46.990 align:center line:-1 This must have been in 1967; I completed the tracing in September 1967. 68 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:52.750 align:center line:-1 Then, I wrote down some of my impressions; they were just casually written. 69 00:10:52.760 --> 00:11:10.640 align:center line:-1 What did the first essay say? A man's wife had been crushed to death by a car, and he wrote an essay about it. 70 00:11:10.650 --> 00:11:22.950 align:center line:-1 He wrote, "No matter how big a single person's problem is, it's a minor issue; no matter how small the nation's problem is, it's a major issue." 71 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:28.110 align:center line:-1 I was deeply disgusted by this statement. My first essay was inspired by this [matter]. 72 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:40.900 align:center line:-1 I wrote that this wasn't a matter of big issues and small issues, that things must be done according to law, and that the people involved must take responsibility. 73 00:11:40.910 --> 00:11:44.290 align:center line:-1 It was this sort of issue. Otherwise, it would be chaos. 74 00:11:44.300 --> 00:11:55.680 align:center line:-1 His wife's death was a personal matter...I wasn't encouraging [people] to rebel; these were two separate issues. 75 00:11:55.690 --> 00:12:08.520 align:center line:-1 My first essay started from this, but I wrote quite a bit more after that, focusing on the Cultural Revolution. 76 00:12:08.530 --> 00:12:23.990 align:center line:-1 During the Cultural Revolution, [there were these kinds of slogans]: "Whoever opposes Mao Zedong, smash that dog's head in!" "Whoever opposes Mao Zedong Thought, smash that dog's head in!" 77 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:39.370 align:center line:-1 I said that such slogans were wrong. Doesn't China have left, center, and right? 78 00:12:39.380 --> 00:12:48.990 align:center line:-1 Was there nothing in [people's] heads that opposed Mao Zedong Thought? If [heads] were smashed, what kind of nation would we turn into? 79 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:58.020 align:center line:-1 Never mind everything else, China had so many religious figures -- Buddhist monks, Daoist priests, Buddhists -- so many religious people. 80 00:12:58.030 --> 00:13:05.430 align:center line:-1 Should these "dogs" have their heads smashes as well? Religious thought and Mao Zedong Thought were incompatible. 81 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.440 align:center line:-1 Should all these heads be smashed? It was ridiculous. 82 00:13:09.450 --> 00:13:13.080 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Did you write articles, or rather talk about these ideas with other people? 83 00:13:13.090 --> 00:13:18.990 align:center line:-1 I wrote articles. 84 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:22.450 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Did you get into trouble? 85 00:13:22.460 --> 00:13:28.990 align:center line:-1 No, not a bit of trouble. I never gave them to others to read. 86 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:31.140 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: You wrote them for yourself, and kept them. 87 00:13:31.150 --> 00:14:00.600 align:center line:-1 That's right. It was step by step, like a child growing up step by step. I experienced it personally, that a person's thinking develops step by step. 88 00:14:00.610 --> 00:14:11.990 align:center line:-1 Later, I wrote "Discussing Revolution," which was divided into five parts, I think. 89 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:22.900 align:center line:-1 The first part [concerned how], during the Cultural Revolution, many people were executed or imprisoned. 90 00:14:22.910 --> 00:14:37.570 align:center line:-1 One accusation was [that a person was] "dissatisfied with reality." The first part of my "Discussing Revolution" expressed that this was not a crime. 91 00:14:37.580 --> 00:14:51.770 align:center line:-1 Why? Society must develop, so we must be dissatisfied with society. If we have to be satisfied with society, then what is there to develop? 92 00:14:51.780 --> 00:15:12.350 align:center line:-1 The second part was directed at "Old Mao." "Old Mao" had a famous judgment: "Those who expose are not necessarily important; those who praise are not necessarily insignificant." 93 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:16.600 align:center line:-1 He said this during the 1957 Anti-Rightist campaign. 94 00:15:16.610 --> 00:15:33.270 align:center line:-1 In "Discussing Revolution," I said -- [of course] it was still a nascent, tentative, transitional viewpoint -- I just said it was incorrect. 95 00:15:33.280 --> 00:15:44.560 align:center line:-1 If we want to have revolution, if we want to move society forward, the dark side must be exposed. 96 00:15:44.570 --> 00:15:54.350 align:center line:-1 [In] the third [part]...during the Cultural Revolution, there was a rather important slogan, "fight selfishness, repudiate revisionism." 97 00:15:54.360 --> 00:16:10.330 align:center line:-1 I said this was incorrect. People needed to transform themselves within society. 98 00:16:10.340 --> 00:16:21.830 align:center line:-1 How could there be anyone who locked himself at home, managed to struggle with and get rid of all the selfish things in his mind, and then transformed society? Could this be done? 99 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:28.160 align:center line:-1 There was not a single person whose thinking could be completely proletariat. 100 00:16:28.170 --> 00:16:39.900 align:center line:-1 In actuality, people's thinking was contradictory, with right and wrong, proletariat and bourgeoisie -- anyway, it was contradictory. 101 00:16:39.910 --> 00:16:48.480 align:center line:-1 You'd be old or [dead] before you managed to get rid of it. So I said this [slogan] was wrong. 102 00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:54.730 align:center line:-1 I also wrote that people must "establish themselves as authorities," as the saying goes--one must make a name for oneself. 103 00:16:54.740 --> 00:17:09.620 align:center line:-1 During the Cultural Revolution, there was a lot of confused criticism of this idea. I said it was simple; people must do great things. 104 00:17:09.630 --> 00:17:15.890 align:center line:-1 If a person had the ability to do something big, then that person must do it. 105 00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:22.350 align:center line:-1 "Making a name for oneself" must not become a taboo. 106 00:17:22.360 --> 00:17:26.950 align:center line:-1 What good did it do humanity for someone to be just a "screw"? 107 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:35.710 align:center line:-1 Compared to a big machine, which one [had a greater contribution]? 108 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:51.760 align:center line:-1 After writing five pieces, I started critiquing editorials from People's Daily. 109 00:17:51.770 --> 00:18:11.410 align:center line:-1 In about June or July of 1966, there was a piece in People's Daily called "All 700 Million People Are Critics," meaning that everyone must perform "great criticism." 110 00:18:11.420 --> 00:18:24.590 align:center line:-1 I myself targeted this editorial for criticism. I said that in society, there were people on the left and right, and in the middle. 111 00:18:24.600 --> 00:18:30.570 align:center line:-1 There was no way 700 million people should be made active in criticism. 112 00:18:30.580 --> 00:18:35.990 align:center line:-1 [People's] minds had opposing thoughts in them. 113 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:42.720 align:center line:-1 The editorial said we all must wield Mao Zedong Thought as a weapon [in criticizing], but how would that be possible? 114 00:18:42.730 --> 00:18:46.020 align:center line:-1 People had anti-Mao Zedong Thought ideas in their minds. 115 00:18:46.030 --> 00:18:53.550 align:center line:-1 Wielding Mao Zedong Thought [to perform criticism] was nonsense, right? I [wrote] really passionately. 116 00:18:53.560 --> 00:18:58.880 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Really passionately. So everything you wrote was just for yourself, and you never distributed it? 117 00:18:58.890 --> 00:19:02.580 align:center line:-1 Just keep listening. 118 00:19:02.590 --> 00:19:18.990 align:center line:-1 Then, there was a series of articles, criticizing an editorial from June 4th whose title was "Destroy the Last Semblance of Bourgeoisie Freedom, Equality, and Fraternity." 119 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:23.790 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: "Destroy the Last Semblance of Bourgeoisie Freedom, Equality, and Fraternity"? 120 00:19:23.800 --> 00:19:33.820 align:center line:-1 Yes. So, I criticized this article. I'll give you a little background. 121 00:19:33.830 --> 00:19:54.200 align:center line:-1 This editorial [was published] on June 4th, in accordance with [Mao Zedong's] May 16 Circular; many of the views expressed in it came from the May 16 Circular. 122 00:19:54.210 --> 00:19:59.790 align:center line:-1 For example, the May 16 Circular said that [Peng Zhen's principle of] "everyone is equal before the truth" was incorrect. 123 00:19:59.800 --> 00:20:14.920 align:center line:-1 It said this was a bourgeoisie [idea]. I focused on this for criticism. I said, everyone must be equal before the truth. 124 00:20:14.930 --> 00:20:30.750 align:center line:-1 I said, if you want to advance a proletariat revolution, want to ferret out the bourgeoisie, you can't say for yourself if you're bourgeoisie or proletariat. 125 00:20:30.760 --> 00:20:46.020 align:center line:-1 Anyone could say anything. We need equality, need facts and reason. Only then could you really identify people. 126 00:20:46.030 --> 00:20:53.760 align:center line:-1 If there was no equality, I could say you were anything I wanted to say you were. What kind of way of doing things was this? 127 00:20:53.770 --> 00:21:04.420 align:center line:-1 Also, I focused on freedom. [That editorial] discussed "freedom, equality, and fraternity." 128 00:21:04.430 --> 00:21:15.490 align:center line:-1 I said [we] must have equality as well as freedom. 129 00:21:15.500 --> 00:21:30.850 align:center line:-1 Equality and freedom touch on the system of society, which should be standardized. 130 00:21:30.860 --> 00:21:41.990 align:center line:-1 Fraternity is different. That people should have fraternity and brotherly love was a proposition, so I didn't discuss this. 131 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:52.100 align:center line:-1 What I focused on was that society should have equality and freedom. 132 00:21:52.110 --> 00:22:13.840 align:center line:-1 From September 1967 onward -- this was after I wrote "Glory's Exemplar" -- I was writing this essay, up until August 1968, when I was assigned to go to the farm. 133 00:22:13.850 --> 00:22:37.460 align:center line:-1 In ten months, I had written 200,000 characters. At the time, I really wanted to publish what I had written, but I knew I could not. 134 00:22:37.470 --> 00:22:57.470 align:center line:-1 In 1968, I went to the farm; in 1969, I began arranging my old manuscripts. 135 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:08.670 align:center line:-1 When I first started writing, I [was writing on] miscellaneous scraps of paper, but then I arranged them into nine notebooks. 136 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:12.430 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Did you copy them fresh, or paste them in? 137 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:14.990 align:center line:-1 I revised and arranged them, copied -- 138 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:17.090 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: You copied them out? 139 00:23:17.100 --> 00:23:26.790 align:center line:-1 Right. I transcribed and revised at the same time. When I was transcribing, of course I was revising, too. 140 00:23:26.800 --> 00:23:38.560 align:center line:-1 From 1969 to 1971, all I was doing was revising and transcribing. 141 00:23:38.570 --> 00:23:44.570 align:center line:-1 Then, in 1971, the Lin Biao Incident happened. 142 00:23:44.580 --> 00:23:46.640 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: 9/13. 143 00:23:46.650 --> 00:24:04.110 align:center line:-1 Right, 9/13. All that time, I'd been thinking of how to distribute [what I'd written]. If I didn't get it out, I'd be a fool. 144 00:24:04.120 --> 00:24:33.310 align:center line:-1 What I'd written was a beheaded thing. I'd written it, but not put it out there; it was hidden, covered up, beheaded...Of course, I never found a channel [for publication]. 145 00:24:33.320 --> 00:24:44.210 align:center line:-1 Actually, the Lin Biao Incident in 1971 really touched me greatly. I felt that China was already ridiculous in the extreme. 146 00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:54.870 align:center line:-1 [A country's] second-in-command, who always had good things to say, [such as] "Every word [Mao Zedong speaks] is truth," "One sentence [from Mao] is worth ten thousand sentences," etc. 147 00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:03.990 align:center line:-1 In the end, it turned into something like this! What was [our] country doing? 148 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:23.210 align:center line:-1 I could say, this period was the second stage in my writing, writing things to criticize society. 149 00:25:23.220 --> 00:25:38.590 align:center line:-1 From 1967 to 1968, in those ten months, I wrote 200,000 words. In 1971 I wrote about 100,000 words. 150 00:25:38.600 --> 00:25:51.540 align:center line:-1 At the time, the essays I wrote were "Down with Reactionary Class Struggle," "Thoughts on the Death of Lin Biao," and "More Thoughts on the Death of Lin Biao," and "Even More Thoughts About the Death of Lin Biao." 151 00:25:51.550 --> 00:25:56.120 align:center line:-1 Everyone else was [involved in] the Criticize Lin [Biao] and Criticize Confucius campaign. 152 00:25:56.130 --> 00:26:05.680 align:center line:-1 Actually, I was totally disgusted with Lin Biao. [He] was such a disgrace. 153 00:26:05.690 --> 00:26:12.840 align:center line:-1 I didn't write "big-character posters" criticizing Lin and Confucius, but I wrote something myself. 154 00:26:12.850 --> 00:26:20.220 align:center line:-1 Primarily, I was criticizing society. Why was this society able to bring about this result? 155 00:26:20.230 --> 00:26:28.870 align:center line:-1 In reality, it was a totalitarian system. Regular people didn't have room to speak. 156 00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:42.990 align:center line:-1 In reality, at the time many people opposed Lin Biao, but they were killed or taken into custody--and then this situation happened! 157 00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:57.990 align:center line:-1 One thing was that the Lin Biao incident really got me worked up, and I decided I needed to stand up. 158 00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:19.470 align:center line:-1 On May 12, 1972 -- it's now 45 years ago -- I put up a "big-character poster" in Shanghai. 159 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:24.790 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Where did you post it? In a university, or outside? 160 00:27:24.800 --> 00:27:31.520 align:center line:-1 It was in Shanghai city center. You've certainly been to Shanghai. 161 00:27:31.530 --> 00:27:36.770 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: I've been there, but during the Cultural Revolution I was pretty small; at that time, I hadn't been there. 162 00:27:36.780 --> 00:27:38.990 align:center line:-1 Shanghai People's Square -- you've heard of it, right? 163 00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:45.350 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Yes, I have. I'd heard of it at the time, but during the Cultural Revolution, I was only in the third grade. 164 00:27:45.360 --> 00:27:52.990 align:center line:-1 People's Square is the center of Shanghai. My "big-character poster" was hung up in People's Square. 165 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:56.610 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Whoa! That must've been terrible, right? 166 00:27:56.620 --> 00:28:11.860 align:center line:-1 Oh, no, it wasn't. The content of this "big-character poster" was "Does truth have a class element?" That was the topic. 167 00:28:11.870 --> 00:28:19.990 align:center line:-1 Where did this proposition that truth has a class element come from? It was from the May 16 Circular. 168 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:25.220 align:center line:-1 If you read [the May 16 Circular], then you'll know. At the time, I didn't know the May 16 Circular. 169 00:28:25.230 --> 00:28:37.160 align:center line:-1 I just knew the editorial that had appeared in People's Daily on June 4th--“Destroy the Last Semblance of Bourgeoisie Freedom, Liberty, and Fraternity"--which had this claim in it. 170 00:28:37.170 --> 00:28:41.260 align:center line:-1 I just said that truth did not have a class element. 171 00:28:41.270 --> 00:28:51.030 align:center line:-1 Does the Sun revolve around the Earth, or is it the other way around -- and does the Sun have a class [element]? 172 00:28:51.040 --> 00:28:54.600 align:center line:-1 Altogether, there were 22 pages in this "big-character poster." 173 00:28:54.610 --> 00:28:56.370 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Did you copy them yourself? 174 00:28:56.380 --> 00:29:12.010 align:center line:-1 Of course! No one else took part. The things I wrote, I gave to a few extremely dependable, trustworthy friends to look at. 175 00:29:12.020 --> 00:29:15.310 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Did anyone discourage you? 176 00:29:15.320 --> 00:29:28.730 align:center line:-1 My friends all discouraged me; none of them encouraged me. However, these were friends I definitely trusted; they would never have betrayed me. 177 00:29:28.740 --> 00:29:37.480 align:center line:-1 I wanted to guarantee [that they wouldn't betray me]. Why did I give these things to them to read? I wanted to receive their support. 178 00:29:37.490 --> 00:29:41.990 align:center line:-1 What support? I wanted them to hold on to my manuscripts for me. 179 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:51.320 align:center line:-1 This way, if the authorities took me in, if I died, my writings would still be there. 180 00:29:51.330 --> 00:30:01.090 align:center line:-1 If I didn't die, these things would still belong to me. My [manuscripts] were stored at my friends' houses. 181 00:30:01.100 --> 00:30:05.050 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Did your own family know? 182 00:30:05.060 --> 00:30:11.410 align:center line:-1 They didn't know a thing. Why didn't they know? 183 00:30:11.420 --> 00:30:13.690 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: To protect your family? 184 00:30:13.700 --> 00:30:24.590 align:center line:-1 One [reason] was to protect them, and another was that I have younger brothers and a younger sister, and I'd never spoken about [these issues] with them. 185 00:30:24.600 --> 00:30:35.040 align:center line:-1 It was because if you were going to do this kind of thing, you had to have a definite foundation for your thought. 186 00:30:35.050 --> 00:30:37.170 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: A common language. 187 00:30:37.180 --> 00:30:45.990 align:center line:-1 Right. You had to have a common way of thinking. I talked to my friend [about this]. 188 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:50.990 align:center line:-1 How can I put this? I had gone through a period of observation and reflection. 189 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:59.260 align:center line:-1 [My friends] all had their own foundation for their thinking, but my younger brothers and my little sister didn't have this. 190 00:30:59.270 --> 00:31:06.390 align:center line:-1 I couldn't just teach them from the beginning; their understanding of society wouldn't allow them [to understand me]. 191 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:18.650 align:center line:-1 So, under these circumstances, not letting them know [what I was doing] was a way of protecting them. 192 00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:21.270 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: That's understandable. 193 00:31:21.280 --> 00:31:35.720 align:center line:-1 At the time, I was still on the farm. In 1971, some of those on the farm were sent back. 194 00:31:35.730 --> 00:31:37.700 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Back to the city, right? 195 00:31:37.710 --> 00:31:47.380 align:center line:-1 Right. The first group to return to the city [worked as] middle school teachers. 196 00:31:47.390 --> 00:31:57.940 align:center line:-1 The requirements for middle school teachers were that they were those with good family backgrounds, so of course I was excluded. 197 00:31:57.950 --> 00:32:11.920 align:center line:-1 At the end of 1971 it was Chongming Farm, or rather it was China farm system's first group [of Educated Youth] to be sent back. 198 00:32:11.930 --> 00:32:26.750 align:center line:-1 You know the difference between the farm and the factory was that [people on] the farm desperately wanted to go back to the city. 199 00:32:26.760 --> 00:32:31.170 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Right. 200 00:32:31.180 --> 00:32:37.520 align:center line:-1 I should mention, at the time I had the qualifications [to return to the city]. 201 00:32:37.530 --> 00:32:49.300 align:center line:-1 One thing was that in Shanghai during the entirety of the Cultural Revolution, policies were adhered to rather well. 202 00:32:49.310 --> 00:32:59.290 align:center line:-1 [Shanghai] did not experience widespread violent struggle on the scale that other places did. 203 00:32:59.300 --> 00:33:07.040 align:center line:-1 What beneficial qualifications did I have, then? My relationships within our production team were rather good. 204 00:33:07.050 --> 00:33:08.990 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: What was [good] within the production team? 205 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:18.690 align:center line:-1 Relationships. Usually I wasn't lazy in my work. 206 00:33:18.700 --> 00:33:30.170 align:center line:-1 What's more important is that my two younger brothers had both joined a production team. My younger sister had not yet been assigned [to a job]. 207 00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:39.810 align:center line:-1 In Shanghai at that time, these issues were most important when determining whether or not someone would be sent back to the city. 208 00:33:39.820 --> 00:33:43.070 align:center line:-1 And it wasn't just for promotions; work assignments were also like this. 209 00:33:43.080 --> 00:33:49.040 align:center line:-1 For example, if an older sister stayed in Shanghai, her younger brother would be sent to a rural community. 210 00:33:49.050 --> 00:33:51.590 align:center line:-1 Or, if a younger brother was sent to a rural community, his older sister would be assigned to stay in Shanghai. 211 00:33:51.600 --> 00:33:55.130 align:center line:-1 On this point, Shanghai adhered [to regulations] quite well. 212 00:33:55.140 --> 00:34:04.230 align:center line:-1 My two younger brothers had joined production teams, my younger sister had not yet been assigned; our family was all farm[ers], no work[ers]. 213 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:09.990 align:center line:-1 Under these circumstances, it was quite likely I'd be sent back [to the city] at the end of the year. 214 00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:32.370 align:center line:-1 However, in 1971, the Lin Biao Incident happened, and I decided to put up "big-character posters." I had already decided I'd do this, definitely. 215 00:34:32.380 --> 00:34:38.210 align:center line:-1 After deciding this, I could consider other matters – did I want to be sent back [to the city] after all? 216 00:34:38.220 --> 00:34:42.100 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: You were thinking of the consequences? 217 00:34:42.110 --> 00:34:51.640 align:center line:-1 That was one thing. Another thing was that I was thinking what would most benefit my putting up of "big-character posters." 218 00:34:51.650 --> 00:34:54.990 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: So, you didn't feel being sent back to the city was as important as putting up "big-character posters"? 219 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.380 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Putting up posters was most important, is that it? 220 00:34:58.390 --> 00:35:05.680 align:center line:-1 Putting up posters was most important. However, [I considered] what would be most beneficial to this activity. 221 00:35:05.690 --> 00:35:10.570 align:center line:-1 I had to think about whether or not being sent back [to the city] would contribute to this. 222 00:35:10.580 --> 00:35:17.700 align:center line:-1 Being sent back would mean returning to the city, while not being sent back would mean [staying] in Chongming. 223 00:35:17.710 --> 00:35:31.040 align:center line:-1 Putting up "big-character posters" would definitely lead to trouble, but would the trouble from the authorities be greater in Shanghai, or in Chongming? 224 00:35:31.050 --> 00:35:33.440 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Oh, so this is how you thought it over. 225 00:35:33.450 --> 00:35:43.690 align:center line:-1 Right. I was just thinking about what would be most favorable toward my putting up "big-character posters." 226 00:35:43.700 --> 00:35:57.990 align:center line:-1 I wanted to write and put up posters, while at the same time I wanted as much as possible to decrease the possibility that authorities would retaliate against me. 227 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.710 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: You really were unusual for the time. 228 00:36:01.720 --> 00:36:13.090 align:center line:-1 I was, definitely. So, in this way, I decided not to sign up to be sent back to the city. 229 00:36:13.100 --> 00:36:23.900 align:center line:-1 I didn't sign up because if I did, I might be sent back to the city, [because] my family was all farm[ers], no work[ers]. In Shanghai, you know, [the policy] at the time was like this. 230 00:36:23.910 --> 00:36:29.240 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: When you say "no work," what you mean is "no workers," right? 231 00:36:29.250 --> 00:36:33.990 align:center line:-1 It means that there were no workers among the children. 232 00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:43.990 align:center line:-1 My two younger brothers had joined production teams, and my younger sister had not yet been assigned [to a job]. 233 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:47.500 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: So this means you met the requirements for being sent back to the city. 234 00:36:47.510 --> 00:37:06.170 align:center line:-1 Right. Three of us were farming. According to Shanghai's [policy], this type of person would be given first [consideration]. 235 00:37:06.180 --> 00:37:18.040 align:center line:-1 On May 12 [1972], I put up a "big-character poster" on ruled paper in Shanghai People's Square. 236 00:37:18.050 --> 00:37:20.990 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Did you write it in calligraphy on "big-character poster" paper? 237 00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:26.340 align:center line:-1 Yes, calligraphy. [Each sheet of] paper must've been larger than a meter. 238 00:37:26.350 --> 00:37:29.080 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: I know what you mean. 239 00:37:29.090 --> 00:37:35.800 align:center line:-1 The poster used up 22 sheets [of paper] altogether. 240 00:37:35.810 --> 00:37:40.760 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Did you use your real name? 241 00:37:40.770 --> 00:37:44.140 align:center line:-1 [I used] my real name, and my real address. 242 00:37:44.150 --> 00:37:55.990 align:center line:-1 One thing was that, if I used a fake name, I'd never get away; [the authorities] would definitely investigate and find me, who'd put up the poster. 243 00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:03.170 align:center line:-1 Another thing was that if you wrote anonymously, the authorities' [punishment] would be much more severe. 244 00:38:03.180 --> 00:38:06.990 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: So you used your real name, and your real surname? 245 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:17.990 align:center line:-1