WEBVTT
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Hello.
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Interviewer: Thank you for accepting my interview.
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Interviewer: I know you’re really busy. We’ve finally
been able to arrange a time to meet. Thank you so much.
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I should thank you!
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Interviewer: Thanks. First, please tell me when you were
born. You can say the year, or just the decade, if you like: '50s, '40s,
etc.
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I was born in August 1950, in Changsha, Hunan
[Province]—a year after the foundation of New China—so-called New
China.
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Interviewer: Thank you. So, according to your age, you
probably have a lot of memories of the decade from 1966 to 1976 [the
Cultural Revolution].
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Interviewer: Probably even given days and nights to speak,
you couldn’t talk about all of them!
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Interviewer: If I limit your time, during the first 10 or
20 minutes of our interview...
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Interviewer:...which memories would you most want to share
concerning the influence of those 10 years on your character or your
psychological state?
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When the Cultural Revolution started in 1966, I was a
junior high school student at Beijing No. 10 Girls’ Middle School.
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In February 1968, I became a worker. From that year until
1976, when the Cultural Revolution ended, I was a worker.
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The first two years of the Cultural Revolution, I was a
student; the remaining eight years, I was a worker.
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I think this is the first time anyone has asked me what
influence the Cultural Revolution had on my personal character.
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I really haven’t thought about this in detail.
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I’ll talk about the first thing that comes to mind,
which is actually something that a recent event caused me to think
about.
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The first time I saw a scene of violent struggle in the
Cultural Revolution, it left an incredibly deep impression on me.
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We had gone to Beijing No. 13 Boys' Middle School to
attend a struggle meeting they were having.
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At that point struggle had already moved from schools to
society at large, to criticize and struggle against landlords in
society.
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We heard that No. 13 Middle School was going to struggle
against a landlord. We ran over to watch the action.
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It just so happened that they had just dragged him out of
his house.
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That evening it was drizzling, and the asphalt had a layer
of rain on it. This landlord was bald and very fat, and looked a little
like a butcher.
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They dragged him by his arms and legs along the asphalt.
He squealed like a pig; his back was covered in blood from being dragged
along the ground to the school.
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My feeling at the time was really confused. Since I had
never encountered this kind of situation before, my natural instinct was to
throw up—to just vomit.
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I probably won't forget this [feeling] for the rest of my
life.
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You know, recently when United Airlines [美联航] took
that Vietnamese doctor and dragged him off the plane, I immediately
recalled the scene I had witnessed that day.
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So, why should we research the Cultural Revolution?
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It might seem like the Cultural Revolution was China’s
business, was an insane group of people led by the crazy Mao Zedong, who
all did crazy things—a revolution that upturned heaven and earth.
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Actually, the natural evil of human nature exists
everywhere in this world.
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I think this United Airlines [美联航] [incident] is not
that much different from the evil that drove No. 13 Middle School
[students] to drag that landlord along the road.
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However, the United States has law, has a system, to keep
this kind of evil in check. But during the Cultural Revolution, this kind
of evil reached its pinnacle; this kind of evil was praised.
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This was the first indelible impression the Cultural
Revolution left on me.
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And since then, any time I’ve seen similar situations
elsewhere in the world, I’ve naturally immediately thought about
China’s Cultural Revolution; I think this is a common issue.
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Just like a few years ago, when Carma [Hinton] made the
documentary Morning Sun, she was
interviewed by a Chinese TV network from the Bay Area, who asked why she
would want to make an English documentary in America about the Cultural
Revolution.
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She said that after 9/11, the United States also
experienced a period of madness, in which they changed the name of French
fries [薯条].
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What did they call French fries? I forget now. [“Freedom
fries”]. Anyway, they changed the name, since at that time France’s
attitude toward 9/11 was not clear-cut.
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It was like in China, when sachima started being called
“revolutionary sachima.”
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So, I think that your project really has a lot of
significance for human culture and civilization. That’s what I would like
to say first.
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Interviewer: Thank you. I’d like to clarify something:
you said you were born in Changsha, Hunan [Province], but during the 10
years of the Cultural Revolution, were you in Changsha, or Beijing?
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I was in Beijing. I went to Beijing when I was two and a
half. When I was just past two, my parents went to Beijing to work, so I
went, too.
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For kindergarten, elementary school, and middle school, I
was in Beijing.
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Interviewer: I just wanted to double check with you. When
you said No. 13 Middle School, it must’ve been Beijing No. 13 Middle
School.
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Right, it was Beijing No. 13 Middle School, which was a
boys’ school.
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Interview: Oh, I see. Please go on.
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The second thing that left a deep impression on me was
that I heard the Central Conservatory of Music was struggling against
“capitalist-roaders” and “those in power.”
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Once again, we ran over to check it out. At that time, I
thought the Central Conservatory of Music was a sacred site, a really
elegant place; usually it was not easy to step onto its grounds.
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During the Cultural Revolution, society was unrestricted,
so we could go right in.
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On that day, when I went into the school, I received
another shock. What was it?
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The art students were singing “The East is Red,” but
the way they sang it and the way we sang it was different.
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Their voices were resonant; it was so good, it was like
professionals were singing it!
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That resonance, reverberation, and professional quality
really fired you up. It was beautiful.
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But at the same time, in sharp contrast to that beauty, a
lady, Su Lingyang, was pulled up on stage to have her head shaved in
“yin-yang” style,
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and have black ink poured on her from head to toe.
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I think at the time she was principal of the school. [Su
Lingyang was principal of Beijing Normal University Affiliated Girls'
Middle School].
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I believe she was Zhou Yang's wife -- I forget.
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Su Lingyang was a very thin, elderly woman. It was an
extreme contrast—the beauty of art, [alongside] such ugliness.
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It was a contrast you’d remember your whole life, that
these beautiful students, who were studying art, could do something like
this.
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During the Cultural Revolution, I could not approve of or
accept how people were humiliated like this.
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After seeing that, I constantly felt shocked and upset.
What I want to talk about are these two things.
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Interviewer: So, do you think everything you experienced
during the Cultural Revolution left an underlying mark on your character,
psychology, and behavior?
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I don’t know whether or not some things were cultivated
beginning when I was very young.
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When the “work group” came in, at that time, I was
really earnestly and sincerely carrying out revolution based on my own
understanding of Chairman Mao’s intentions.
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It was really pure, with no selfish distractions.
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However, the people from the “work group” said to my
friends, you all who are taking part in the Cultural Revolution are
sincere; there’s no problem.
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But, they told my friends that [I], Li Nanyang, had
problems in [my] family background; if I were [taking part in the Cultural
Revolution], I must have an ulterior motive.
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I was 16 at that time. It was the first time I'd heard
adults link my behavior and my father’s together; it was the first I’d
heard I had an ulterior motive.
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That kind of purely malicious talk toward me, the lack of
trust, made me incredibly rebellious; later on, I was really insubordinate
toward the “work group.”
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Later on, the [People’s] Liberation Army came to [our]
school. This was also a means of enforcement: if I make you do something,
you’ll do it.
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I was really rebellious then, too. I don’t know if it
was the Cultural Revolution that formed this attitude, or if it was just my
natural disposition.
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People say the back of my brain has a stubborn bone
growing in it. I just naturally don’t like to have anything forced or
imposed upon me.
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I won’t just grin and bear it. Or to put it nicely, to
praise myself a little bit, I don’t have that slavish mentality; I don't
want to be a slave.
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This is a difference between myself and many others who
experienced the Cultural Revolution.
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This is also why I cannot understand how, even though the
Cultural Revolution occurred decades ago, there are people who are still
unwilling to show their faces or reveal their names when they talk about
the Cultural Revolution.
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I absolutely have no way of understanding this.
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I was a “son of a dog” during the Cultural Revolution,
because of my family, and so toward every bit of external pressure and
every humiliation, I was rebellious, disgusted, and resistant.
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I think this is what the Cultural Revolution left me with.
It didn’t bring me down, but instead, made me very self-aware.
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Interviewer: So this is one manifestation of that era’s
influence on your character. Are there others?
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In Beijing’s middle schools, there were the April 3
Faction and the April 4 Faction.
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When [I] got to 60 or 70 years old, [I] realized that at
this age, the people of the April 3 Faction still have more common
language.
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Interviewer: Still have more what?
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Common language. The April 3 Faction and April 4 Faction
was a completely laughable situation.
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[The two groups] were established because the Central
Cultural Revolution [Small Group] received a group of students on April 3,
and another group of students on April 4.
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Today they’d say one thing; tomorrow they’d say
another, with the result that the two groups of people were completely
confused.
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But they each believed their group was supported by the
Central Cultural Revolution [Small Group].
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But what’s important, I think, is that the April 3
people were able to think through things independently.
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That’s why, after [so many years], our point of view is
relatively similar, because of this ability to think independently.
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As for the April 4 Faction, they were more likely to
listen to the [orders of] the army representative.
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This army representative was a symbol of the Party, was
sent by Chairman Mao, and made the middle school students form a “grand
alliance,” conclude the Cultural Revolution, and then “resume classes
[to] make revolution.”
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Interviewer: At that time, I was in the third grade. I had
heard of April 3 Faction and April 4 Faction. But your [experience] and
ours were completely different.
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Interviewer: You all had an understanding of the sequence
of events, the causes and effects, what was actually happening.
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Interviewer: And then afterward, like you said, you had a
common language. This is something we had absolutely no experience
with.
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You know, at the time it was really funny.
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What was interesting was that later on, when they got out
into society and it came time to choose a spouse, many of the April 3
Faction and April 4 Faction [members] strove to marry someone from within
their faction.
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It must have been a decade or more after going to [work
in] factories that this kind of factionalism began to fade away.
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Interviewer: It persisted [for a long time]?
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Right! As soon as [you] came to the factory, people would
ask around, to find out if you were April 3 Faction or April 4 Faction.
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The April 3 Faction [members] would naturally become
friends, and would naturally not have anything to do with the April 4
Faction. It was so weird.
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What’s more, for example, if I [an April 3 Faction
member] were looking for a boyfriend, [I] most definitely would not look
amongst the April 4 Faction. It’s ridiculous, but it was indeed like
that.
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Interviewer: That’s really interesting! I’ve never
heard about this.
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That’s what it was like. I don’t know how it was [for
people who] joined a production team, but those who went into the factory
would always know who was April 3 Faction, and who was April 4 Faction.
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[Each faction] would become friends with its own
members.
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Interviewer: To use a contemporary way of putting it, they
had similar value systems?
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Yes. After going [to work in] the factory, [the April 3
Faction members'] attitude toward the factory leader was similar as
well.
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[We] wouldn’t suck up to the leader, or pay much
attention to how the leader acted toward [us].
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[We] didn’t care if the head liked [us] or not; [we]
just did [our] own thing.
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I guess this is the influence those two years of middle
school had on the rest of my life.
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Interviewer: I truly believe it when you say your own
resistance and that era have a relationship.
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Interviewer: You are the 62nd person we have interviewed
[采访]; of the other 61 interviews [被采访者], each person had a
different experience.
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Interviewer: There are workers, peasants, intellectuals,
and an elderly woman who cannot read.
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Interviewer: Their experiences during the Cultural
Revolution were different, and this has directly influenced their
understanding of the Cultural Revolution up until the present.
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Here I could bring up Jiang Wen’s movie In
the Heat of the Sun.
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Interviewer: Right.
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I think [Jiang Wen’s] feelings--or the feelings of the
protagonist in the movie--are true.
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From their perspective, the Cultural Revolution completely
lacked restraint.
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It was an era when you could be headstrong, undisciplined,
and brash. But this is why we must deeply reflect on the Cultural
Revolution.
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The essence of that movie is that we don’t fully
understand how many people their brash attitude harmed.
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These kids could make a person look just like a pig being
dragged along the ground, and feel happy about it.
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But they fundamentally have no understanding of the insult
this was toward humanity and civilization, or the shame it brought upon
themselves.
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This is why up until now, Chinese people won’t allow
discussion of how deeply the Cultural Revolution hurt us.
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So, actually, if China wants to restore a humane
civilization, this is probably not an issue that can be resolved in one or
two generations.
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Interviewer: For this reason, I really thank you for
accepting my interview.
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I thank you very much for selecting this topic.
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Interviewer: You’ve shared with us some perspectives
from your particular viewpoint, which comes from the particular experiences
you had.
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Interviewer: It is very distinct, but doesn’t just
represent one individual. I believe it can represent other people as well.
That’s its significance.
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There were also two terrifying events during the Cultural
Revolution that penetrated every family and every individual.
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My family was made to move from a private apartment to a
dormitory-style building where the kitchen and bathroom were shared.
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Our rooms were at the farthest end of the corridor. [One
day,] the glass [window] of the corridor was smashed.
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[We] looked for a piece of paper to cover the broken part.
During the Cultural Revolution, finding paper that didn’t have
Quotations from Chairman Mao printed
on it wasn’t easy.
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So, [we] just put up a piece of paper that had Mao’s
quotations on it.
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People spontaneously started coming off the streets—they
weren’t organized or anything—they just came up and angrily pounded on
our door.
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They said this was counter-revolutionary behavior—how
could we have used Chairman Mao’s quotations to patch broken glass? This
kind of terror penetrated people’s souls.
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And another thing is that, at that time, every home had a
porcelain image of Mao. When we were moving, it got broken—people today
just cannot imagine that kind of terror.
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Interviewer: At that time, you could’ve been [labeled]
an “active counter-revolutionary.”
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I just didn’t know what to I should do with the broken
parts. At midnight, I turned off the lights, tightly closed the curtains,
and then smashed the thing into tiny pieces.
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Then, I put it in the garbage in batches. This was not at all
like In the Heat of the Sun—it was
a crime punishable by death.
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Interviewer: Only those who have experienced such a thing
would believe it’s real.
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Right. It’s not fake; it’s not something made up for a
movie.
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Interviewer: Today’s young people might ask, is this
something from a novel?
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And also, seeing a doctor. [One time,] I had a fever, so I
went to the hospital to see a doctor. I really didn’t want to go, because
the first question they’d ask would concern my family background.
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[I] had no way to answer. If [I] said “revolutionary
cadre,” and [I] happened to run into a classmate from my middle school,
he or she would reveal [I] was actually a “son of a dog.”
141
00:18:07.050 --> 00:18:22.990 align:center line:-1
That would be a drowning calamity. But if [I] said I was a
child of the "black gang," what would the doctor’s attitude be like? That
was such a humiliation!
142
00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:27.400 align:center line:-1
At that time, shame and humiliation were everywhere.
143
00:18:27.410 --> 00:18:39.990 align:center line:-1
Although it wasn’t like the Nazis making [the Jewish
people] wear a [Star of David] to indicate their identity, that humiliation
was still stamped [upon us].
144
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:45.550 align:center line:-1
We couldn’t get away from it anywhere in society.
145
00:18:45.560 --> 00:18:50.400 align:center line:-1
Interviewer: Right. Thank you so much. Is there anything
else you’d like to say?
146
00:18:50.410 --> 00:18:59.990 align:center line:-1
The Cultural Revolution is already far in the past; I’ve
already forgotten many concrete details, but these few details are the
things I’ll remember for the rest of my life.
147
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:07.990 align:center line:-1
So, I think the Cultural Revolution is not just something
that should never return to China; it’s also something that no corner of
the earth should ever experience.
148
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:09.291 align:center line:-1
Interviewer: Thank you so, so much.
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