WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.020 --> 00:00:03.200 align:center line:-1Interviewer: Hi. Thank you for accepting our interview. 2 00:00:03.210 --> 00:00:04.720 align:center line:-1 You’re welcome. 3 00:00:04.730 --> 00:00:07.360 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Could you please tell me when you were born? 4 00:00:07.370 --> 00:00:10.990 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: You don’t need to say your exact age; just the decade of your birth is fine – such as “’40s,” “’50s,” “’60s.” 5 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:13.360 align:center line:-1 [I was born in the] ‘50s. 6 00:00:13.370 --> 00:00:21.790 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Could you tell me where you lived in China during the period of time from 1966 to 1976? 7 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:26.690 align:center line:-1 I was in Wuhan, and later in the countryside of Hubei Province for a while. 8 00:00:26.700 --> 00:00:39.020 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: OK. I believe that if I were to ask you to share your memories of what you experienced during the 10 years of the Cultural Revolution, it might take you 10 days or more. 9 00:00:39.030 --> 00:00:44.960 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: But if I only give you 10 minutes, what would you most want to share? 10 00:00:44.970 --> 00:00:54.320 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Some experiences, a certain scene, a certain incident, or some of your ideas -- please say whatever you’d like. 11 00:00:54.330 --> 00:00:58.230 align:center line:-1 Sure. May I start? 12 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:00.020 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Go ahead. 13 00:01:00.030 --> 00:01:08.820 align:center line:-1 When people talk about the Cultural Revolution, they say that it was miserable, or talk about being struggled against. 14 00:01:08.830 --> 00:01:14.300 align:center line:-1 I feel that the greatest disaster of the Cultural Revolution, which of course I only figured out many years later, 15 00:01:14.310 --> 00:01:22.390 align:center line:-1 was its unleashing of the dark side of human nature. 16 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:30.590 align:center line:-1 All religions try to suppress one’s dark side and praise one's virtues, but the Cultural Revolution was actually completely opposite. 17 00:01:30.600 --> 00:01:39.680 align:center line:-1 At the time, when you saw your friends or loved ones being struggled against, you couldn't stay quiet. 18 00:01:39.690 --> 00:01:42.990 align:center line:-1 You had to -- people would force you to -- get up [to join in the struggle]. 19 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:47.990 align:center line:-1 The better your relationship [with the accused], the more others forced you [to participate in the struggle]. 20 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:54.300 align:center line:-1 Interpersonal relationships were thoroughly destroyed. 21 00:01:54.310 --> 00:02:03.670 align:center line:-1 That is why after the Cultural Revolution, though China has become rich and people's material lives have greatly improved, 22 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:09.690 align:center line:-1 interpersonal relationships are still a source of anxiety. 23 00:02:09.700 --> 00:02:18.310 align:center line:-1 My personal impression is that during the first few years of the Cultural Revolution, we were not greatly impacted. 24 00:02:18.320 --> 00:02:27.180 align:center line:-1 Although my parents were cadres, and were written about on "big-character posters," we were not affected too much. 25 00:02:27.190 --> 00:02:31.640 align:center line:-1 But during the Rectify the Class Ranks campaign, my mother was ordered to the "cow shed." 26 00:02:31.650 --> 00:02:38.330 align:center line:-1 It was because right before Liberation, she had gone to Kuomintang-occupied Nanjing [the Nationalists' headquarters]. 27 00:02:38.340 --> 00:02:44.090 align:center line:-1 The Kuomintang [KMT] government had lied to the students, saying poor students could go to college for free in Nanjing, 28 00:02:44.100 --> 00:02:45.050 align:center line:-1 so my mother and her friends went there. 29 00:02:45.060 --> 00:02:50.980 align:center line:-1 Then, seeing the KMT continuously defeated, [my mother and her friends] came back [to Communist-occupied areas]. 30 00:02:50.990 --> 00:02:58.430 align:center line:-1 [I later joked that] they were really opportunists. Later, she joined the Communist Party and became a firmly-committed Communist. 31 00:02:58.440 --> 00:03:08.440 align:center line:-1 During the Rectify the Class Ranks campaign, one of her friends who had gone [to Nanjing] with her revealed this piece of history, 32 00:03:08.450 --> 00:03:12.240 align:center line:-1 since everyone had to confess his or her past. Then my mother was treated as a spy and was arrested. 33 00:03:12.250 --> 00:03:16.040 align:center line:-1 After the arrest, she was imprisoned in a cafeteria at her workplace, a university. 34 00:03:16.050 --> 00:03:20.180 align:center line:-1 Such a place was [referred to as] a “cow shed" -- that kind of place. 35 00:03:20.190 --> 00:03:26.010 align:center line:-1 At that time, the greatest impact on us was that the atmosphere around us became very tense. 36 00:03:26.020 --> 00:03:33.990 align:center line:-1 For example, sometimes when I was walking down the street, if her old friends came to greet me, they'd ask, 37 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:43.590 align:center line:-1 “Xiao Lin, how are you and your sister?" Then I knew this was a very special, unusual thing. 38 00:03:43.600 --> 00:03:52.570 align:center line:-1 You could feel that these people still had goodness, but they could not express it -- they did not have any other way to express it. 39 00:03:52.580 --> 00:04:04.950 align:center line:-1 I still remember a little thing that illustrates this tense situation -- people lived in this kind of fear not only due to political pressure. 40 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:09.500 align:center line:-1 Instead, people around you reinforced the fear. 41 00:04:09.510 --> 00:04:14.990 align:center line:-1 I was about 12 or 13 years old at that time and I kept hens for eggs. 42 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:20.570 align:center line:-1 Someone killed one of my chickens, and afterward, I sat at home crying. 43 00:04:20.580 --> 00:04:24.820 align:center line:-1 Of course, I couldn’t go over and argue with the people who’d done it. 44 00:04:24.830 --> 00:04:29.090 align:center line:-1 Because of my family’s situation at the time, we would never have won. I knew this. 45 00:04:29.100 --> 00:04:37.530 align:center line:-1 My father came and said, “You’re crying over a dead chicken. Do you know what will happen if people find out about this?” 46 00:04:37.540 --> 00:04:40.380 align:center line:-1 I immediately didn’t dare keep crying. 47 00:04:40.390 --> 00:04:49.890 align:center line:-1 I remember that my father tried to make salted eggs. Because eggs were a bit cheaper in the spring, my father salted them, to keep them longer. 48 00:04:49.900 --> 00:04:53.050 align:center line:-1 But he did not know how to do that, so the eggs got spoiled. 49 00:04:53.060 --> 00:04:56.780 align:center line:-1 If this were to happen today, we would just throw the eggs away, laugh it off, and be done with it. 50 00:04:56.790 --> 00:05:02.030 align:center line:-1 But my father went to the river, dug a deep hole, and buried the eggs in the night. 51 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:06.610 align:center line:-1 [Back then], your own business became everyone's business. 52 00:05:06.620 --> 00:05:20.180 align:center line:-1 If, let’s say, you just threw the eggs away, someone would definitely say, how wasteful, how rich you are, how could you spoil such good food?, and so on. 53 00:05:20.190 --> 00:05:26.680 align:center line:-1 These small things left really deep impressions in my heart. 54 00:05:26.690 --> 00:05:31.020 align:center line:-1 Still, generally speaking, during the Cultural Revolution our family was pretty lucky. 55 00:05:31.030 --> 00:05:41.510 align:center line:-1 Nobody was beaten or injured, and we all survived intact. 56 00:05:41.520 --> 00:05:53.980 align:center line:-1 I feel that, relatively speaking, my personal experience was not particularly tragic. 57 00:05:53.990 --> 00:06:01.860 align:center line:-1 However, from these experiences I've come to feel that this movement's greatest injury was not who was beaten. 58 00:06:01.870 --> 00:06:04.160 align:center line:-1 Of course, being beaten was terrible. 59 00:06:04.170 --> 00:06:14.390 align:center line:-1 But for the whole nation, the worst [injury] was that no person can really say he or she was not a persecutor during the Cultural Revolution. 60 00:06:14.400 --> 00:06:20.330 align:center line:-1 Turning every innocent person into a guilty one -- this is the very worst aspect of the Cultural Revolution, in my opinion. 61 00:06:20.340 --> 00:06:24.680 align:center line:-1 Take myself as an example. I was only 11 years old when I joined in the Cultural Revolution. 62 00:06:24.690 --> 00:06:29.490 align:center line:-1 But because I was good at writing, I was called upon to write all of the big critiques [denouncing people], 63 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:32.990 align:center line:-1 even up until the first few years after the Cultural Revolution. 64 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:38.610 align:center line:-1 I remember that after I completed my Worker-Peasant-Soldier student period [of college], I returned to my [original workplace], a research institute. 65 00:06:38.620 --> 00:06:41.610 align:center line:-1 At that time, my workplace wanted to attack someone. 66 00:06:41.620 --> 00:06:44.720 align:center line:-1 What's funny is, I can’t even remember who the victim was now. 67 00:06:44.730 --> 00:06:51.590 align:center line:-1 But our vice director asked me to write a critique, although the Cultural Revolution was over already. 68 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:57.600 align:center line:-1 Anyway, since they asked me to write, I wrote. 69 00:06:57.610 --> 00:07:11.280 align:center line:-1 During the Cultural Revolution, because I could write passably well, I criticized at least 10 people -- people who had nothing to do with me. 70 00:07:11.290 --> 00:07:24.350 align:center line:-1 I didn't even know some of them. So it is very difficult to say who really did nothing bad. 71 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:33.650 align:center line:-1 Another thing left a huge impression on me. I had a good friend, who went to school in Jiangsu Province. 72 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:38.140 align:center line:-1 He had a physics teacher who particularly liked him. 73 00:07:38.150 --> 00:07:43.990 align:center line:-1 When the Cultural Revolution started, this teacher was singled out. It must have been because he had had "improper male-female relations." 74 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:46.670 align:center line:-1 [The teacher] was given a hat to wear [with his crimes written on it], 75 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:50.310 align:center line:-1 and made to sweep the floors every day, or parade around in the streets. 76 00:07:50.320 --> 00:07:55.700 align:center line:-1 The teacher and my friend were not only teacher and student, but also neighbors. 77 00:07:55.710 --> 00:08:02.350 align:center line:-1 One day [the teacher] went out, carrying his hat. Seeing that no one was around, he didn't put it on. 78 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:12.100 align:center line:-1 My friend, who was just a junior high school-aged kid, saw his teacher acting so sneaky and thought it was really funny. So he laughed out loud a little. 79 00:08:12.110 --> 00:08:16.590 align:center line:-1 That night, the teacher committed suicide. 80 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:27.230 align:center line:-1 For his whole life, my friend has felt guilty, thinking that because he was a student the teacher really liked, his laughter led to this tragedy. 81 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:30.430 align:center line:-1 In fact, there may have been no connection at all. 82 00:08:30.440 --> 00:08:33.730 align:center line:-1 It could’ve just been that the teacher couldn’t stand the pressure from outside, or something like that. 83 00:08:33.740 --> 00:08:44.170 align:center line:-1 More tragically, the teacher's wife saw that her husband had committed suicide in the kitchen, and so she tried to hang herself. 84 00:08:44.180 --> 00:08:51.440 align:center line:-1 Fortunately, due to her weight or for some other reason, the rope broke, and she did not die. 85 00:08:51.450 --> 00:08:57.000 align:center line:-1 The couple had three children, so if [she had died], I do not know how those children could have survived. 86 00:08:57.010 --> 00:09:11.130 align:center line:-1 Although I have a lot of negative memories from the Cultural Revolution, in terms of my personal maturation – how can I put this? 87 00:09:11.140 --> 00:09:21.430 align:center line:-1 It’s given me [the ability to] reflect on the Cultural Revolution now, and to ponder many things. 88 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:35.990 align:center line:-1 I don't dare say I'm a deep person, but after you sink to the bottom, you can think more deeply. It offers that opportunity. 89 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:44.280 align:center line:-1 For example, when I went “down to the countryside,” my biggest surprise was the poverty of the peasants, 90 00:09:44.290 --> 00:09:49.680 align:center line:-1 and their human nature -- they were incredibly kindhearted. 91 00:09:49.690 --> 00:09:58.020 align:center line:-1 When we were young, of course, we would say, “Oh, the workers and peasants are the main force of the revolution,” but the concept was abstract. 92 00:09:58.030 --> 00:10:06.280 align:center line:-1 Maybe I felt abstractly that [peasants] were worthy of respect, but I had no real idea about them, 93 00:10:06.290 --> 00:10:11.640 align:center line:-1 since we never had any contact with them, growing up on a university campus. 94 00:10:11.650 --> 00:10:15.900 align:center line:-1 As a result, it was not until after going “down to the countryside” that I got to know the peasants as real people. 95 00:10:15.910 --> 00:10:27.450 align:center line:-1 Being with them, especially playing with some of the children who were my age -- I was not yet 16 years old at the time -- I formed really, really good relationships. 96 00:10:27.460 --> 00:10:29.590 align:center line:-1 Together we solved math problems and such, and I realized that there were many very talented people among these folks, 97 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:34.990 align:center line:-1 who were tied to the village [since they were not permitted to migrate at that time]. 98 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:42.340 align:center line:-1 [If they had been allowed to migrate,] many very talented people might have emerged from among them. 99 00:10:42.350 --> 00:10:46.810 align:center line:-1 I think the most important thing I learned there was sympathy. 100 00:10:46.820 --> 00:10:54.160 align:center line:-1 This experience greatly influenced my life and my worldview. 101 00:10:54.170 --> 00:11:02.560 align:center line:-1 Now I firmly believe that all people who use their own hands and their own labor to earn a living, 102 00:11:02.570 --> 00:11:13.620 align:center line:-1 no matter how simple they are, or how lacking in education, or how common – they are all extremely worthy of respect. 103 00:11:13.630 --> 00:11:23.680 align:center line:-1 Because I saw those peasants -- their life was not easy, but they could live a happy life, and were ready to help others. 104 00:11:23.690 --> 00:11:29.040 align:center line:-1 They gave a lot of help to us, the Educated Youth. They were so tolerant of us. 105 00:11:29.050 --> 00:11:36.130 align:center line:-1 I remember the day we arrived there, we had no firewood. 106 00:11:36.140 --> 00:11:48.110 align:center line:-1 We went to the path at the edge of the rice paddies, where some grass was growing, and cut a bunch of it down with a sickle. 107 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:52.180 align:center line:-1 We took a big pile of grass and used it to cook dinner. 108 00:11:52.190 --> 00:12:01.930 align:center line:-1 It was only later that we knew the grass on the edges of the paddies was allotted to each family as cooking fuel, which was in short supply there. 109 00:12:01.940 --> 00:12:08.780 align:center line:-1 We were really clueless, but they took great care of us. 110 00:12:08.790 --> 00:12:13.900 align:center line:-1 To thresh rice after harvest, you’d tie the ox in the threshing court, 111 00:12:13.910 --> 00:12:17.260 align:center line:-1 and lead it around and around in circles as it pulled a roller over the harvested rice plants. 112 00:12:17.270 --> 00:12:24.320 align:center line:-1 It would be really hot, and so we’d rest, and the peasants would come to take turns with us – they’d continue leading the ox. 113 00:12:24.330 --> 00:12:36.350 align:center line:-1 They took good care of us. After a shift, since we were still so young, we’d fall asleep in the shade. 114 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:43.960 align:center line:-1 Usually, the peasants wouldn’t wake us until mealtime. Therefore, threshing was easy work for us. 115 00:12:43.970 --> 00:12:52.660 align:center line:-1 I usually tried to work the first shift and then take a nap, to make sure I did some work before going back to sleep. 116 00:12:52.670 --> 00:12:58.830 align:center line:-1 Overall, the impression being in the countryside gave me was that peasants were particularly good people. 117 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:03.740 align:center line:-1 Sometimes we did not have vegetables to eat, so we’d go to the production team’s garden to steal some. 118 00:13:03.750 --> 00:13:11.110 align:center line:-1 When we encountered the production team leader, we hid our hands behind our backs, though surely he knew what we were doing. 119 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:13.770 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: How long did you stay in the village? 120 00:13:13.780 --> 00:13:27.440 align:center line:-1 Actually, I was very, very lucky. Hubei was one of the Third Front provinces. That is, many factories and research institutes moved to the mountains there. 121 00:13:27.450 --> 00:13:35.220 align:center line:-1 These places had to recruit workers, so hiring in Hubei moved quickly. I stayed in the countryside less than a year. 122 00:13:35.230 --> 00:13:46.370 align:center line:-1 Within 11 months, I was recruited back to my hometown, to a computer research institute, where I worked in a lab. One could hardly be luckier than this. 123 00:13:46.380 --> 00:13:51.980 align:center line:-1 Moreover, my parents did not have to “go through the back door” [use connections to arrange this position]. 124 00:13:51.990 --> 00:13:59.250 align:center line:-1 In fact, they really wanted to use their social capital to help, but before they got the chance, I had already come back. 125 00:13:59.260 --> 00:14:09.850 align:center line:-1 I knew only one other person who was as lucky. We came back on the same truck together, and later became good friends. 126 00:14:09.860 --> 00:14:15.660 align:center line:-1 Even though it was just a year [in the countryside], to me, in terms of my maturation, it was— 127 00:14:15.670 --> 00:14:17.330 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: --very important. 128 00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:23.180 align:center line:-1 Yes, very important. In fact, if I had stayed longer, this experience might have turned into a negative one, right? 129 00:14:23.190 --> 00:14:26.730 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: There is a saying similar to this: if it’s a short stay, the fresh enthusiasm won’t wear off. 130 00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:32.500 align:center line:-1 Yes -- because you stayed there for a short time, went through enough hardship and got enough education, 131 00:14:32.510 --> 00:14:42.280 align:center line:-1 but you weren't there long enough to develop a disgust for the world and become extremely pessimistic. 132 00:14:42.290 --> 00:14:48.940 align:center line:-1 Then, you came back to the city after learning a lot of positive lessons. 133 00:14:48.950 --> 00:15:00.350 align:center line:-1 It's often said the lessons of being in the countryside were about withstanding hardship, working hard, etc. 134 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:14.980 align:center line:-1 The best thing, to me, was learning who the peasants were, understanding how to have empathy with them and think about things from their point of view. 135 00:15:14.990 --> 00:15:16.620 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: It’s very important. 136 00:15:16.630 --> 00:15:34.560 align:center line:-1 Another [benefit] was lifelong friendship. If you weren't eating meals from the same pot, then you wouldn’t form that kind of relationship. 137 00:15:34.570 --> 00:15:43.380 align:center line:-1 Our landlord was the son of a rich peasant. His parents had died long before, and he was all alone. 138 00:15:43.390 --> 00:15:50.310 align:center line:-1 He was a strong worker for the production team, so the production team never treated him as the son of a rich peasant [a class enemy]. 139 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:53.270 align:center line:-1 Still, no matter what, he had that shadow over him, you know? 140 00:15:53.280 --> 00:16:01.990 align:center line:-1 We [were assigned to live] in his house, and everyone treated him so rudely. 141 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:09.220 align:center line:-1 For example, a girl in my group was washing clothes at the river bank, and he went to wash there, too. 142 00:16:09.230 --> 00:16:14.360 align:center line:-1 He used her soap, just a little bit, and so the girl pushed him and he fell into the water. 143 00:16:14.370 --> 00:16:20.840 align:center line:-1 He climbed up as if nothing had happened. He wasn't even angry. 144 00:16:20.850 --> 00:16:28.990 align:center line:-1 One time, we were using the waste from the girls’ outhouse to fertilize the [Educated Youth allotment] garden, but there wasn't enough. 145 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:34.800 align:center line:-1 The boys were lazy, so they had been using the landlord’s toilet to save a few steps. 146 00:16:34.810 --> 00:16:41.990 align:center line:-1 The landlord was named Shagu, a real country name meaning "ox in the sand." 147 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.990 align:center line:-1 I said [to one of the boys], “Go to Shagu's outhouse and get some waste for the garden.” 148 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:49.370 align:center line:-1 My teammates said, “Is it really okay?” They were concerned, since manure was like gold in the village. 149 00:16:49.380 --> 00:16:56.900 align:center line:-1 I said, “Why not? You guys used his toilet, so why can’t we get half the waste back?” 150 00:16:56.910 --> 00:17:02.200 align:center line:-1 Then they went and got half of the waste to fertilize our garden. 151 00:17:02.210 --> 00:17:04.890 align:center line:-1 When it got dark, we finished up to go home. 152 00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:18.190 align:center line:-1 Just then, a good friend of mine, a country boy, ran over [and said,] “You'd better not go back! Shagu is standing at the entrance to the village, ready to fight you!” 153 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.060 align:center line:-1 Clearly Shagu knew I was the one who’d instigated it. 154 00:17:21.070 --> 00:17:28.380 align:center line:-1 I said, “What do I have to fear? Two of our boys used his toilet, but we only took half of the waste. He got off easy!” 155 00:17:28.390 --> 00:17:30.660 align:center line:-1 Then I just swaggered back. 156 00:17:30.670 --> 00:17:39.570 align:center line:-1 When I got to the village entrance, Shagu was indeed standing there with a darkened face, the kind of expression that made you feel a real storm was coming. 157 00:17:39.580 --> 00:17:44.340 align:center line:-1 Then I saw our production brigade secretary, whose home was the first house as you came into the village. 158 00:17:44.350 --> 00:17:48.850 align:center line:-1 He was standing there, watching from a distance -- he knew something big was going to happen. 159 00:17:48.860 --> 00:17:56.440 align:center line:-1 He was afraid of something bad happening to the Educated Youth sent by Chairman Mao. 160 00:17:56.450 --> 00:18:05.770 align:center line:-1 I figured, Shagu is a rich peasant, and the secretary is watching, so Shagu won't dare do anything to me. 161 00:18:05.780 --> 00:18:18.020 align:center line:-1 So I passed him as if nothing had happened. The case was closed that day, but later on, it became apparent that Shagu was really, really angry. 162 00:18:18.030 --> 00:18:28.190 align:center line:-1 According to the fundamental principles of Marxism-Leninism, the economic base determines the superstructure [of society], right? 163 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:39.940 align:center line:-1 Through this incident, I realized that although I had studied Marxist-Leninist theory more than the villagers and my fellow Educated Youth, in practice, they obviously knew it better than I did. 164 00:18:39.950 --> 00:18:44.000 align:center line:-1 Those folks knew that to take Shagu’s waste was to take your life into your own hands! 165 00:18:44.010 --> 00:18:51.730 align:center line:-1 I was the only one who didn’t know. I thought, we only took half! We didn’t even take two-thirds, which we deserved—but no, that just wasn’t done. 166 00:18:51.740 --> 00:18:54.990 align:center line:-1 Shagu wouldn't stand for it. After that, he totally hated me. 167 00:18:55.000 --> 00:19:01.790 align:center line:-1 Even before that, he had never liked me much, because I treated him with total disregard. 168 00:19:01.800 --> 00:19:11.620 align:center line:-1 Actually, I think that hurt him much more than being pushed into the river. Because I didn't treat him like a person. 169 00:19:11.630 --> 00:19:15.960 align:center line:-1 One day later on, we were eating breakfast, and he was there. 170 00:19:15.970 --> 00:19:26.010 align:center line:-1 He had never bothered me before, but that day he said something sarcastic, and so I put my empty rice bowl on his head. 171 00:19:26.020 --> 00:19:36.420 align:center line:-1 He pushed me down, knocking my head against a heavy piece of furniture. I almost passed out. 172 00:19:36.430 --> 00:19:43.430 align:center line:-1 Then I stood up ready to fight him tooth and nail! I was only 16 years old. Eventually the others pulled me away. 173 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:52.010 align:center line:-1 Many years later, I gradually understood that I was very unfair to him. 174 00:19:52.020 --> 00:20:02.620 align:center line:-1 One time when I went back to China, seven or eight years ago, I took my family back to the countryside. 175 00:20:02.630 --> 00:20:04.960 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Did you see him? 176 00:20:04.970 --> 00:20:11.480 align:center line:-1 I didn’t see him, but I met with our production brigade secretary’s wife. She was also a very important person to us. 177 00:20:11.490 --> 00:20:21.290 align:center line:-1 Because she was wife of the production brigade secretary, he assigned her an easy job—to be our instructor on [country] life. 178 00:20:21.300 --> 00:20:29.070 align:center line:-1 She taught us how to tend our allotted vegetable garden. Our vegetables grew well, all because of her teaching. 179 00:20:29.080 --> 00:20:36.590 align:center line:-1 She showed us how to make soft tofu, pickled vegetables, etc. Therefore she was important to us, too. I saw her. 180 00:20:36.600 --> 00:20:47.070 align:center line:-1 As for Shagu, he had taken his grandson to town to have fun, so I didn’t see him, but I saw his wife. 181 00:20:47.080 --> 00:20:51.190 align:center line:-1 When we were in the countryside, Shagu wasn’t yet married. 182 00:20:51.200 --> 00:21:01.810 align:center line:-1 But every time the production team had a day off, Shagu would carry a load of food and wool yarn to charm his prospective wife. 183 00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:11.990 align:center line:-1 At that time, a pound of wool yarn, just about enough to knit a sweater, was a valuable thing. 184 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:16.900 align:center line:-1 When I saw his wife, I asked, “Has Shagu ever mentioned me?” 185 00:21:16.910 --> 00:21:24.750 align:center line:-1 She said yes, he said that you were “too” capable, which is our way of saying "very hardworking." 186 00:21:24.760 --> 00:21:28.570 align:center line:-1 I asked if he had ever mentioned fighting with me. She said he had never mentioned it. I just felt that— 187 00:21:28.580 --> 00:21:31.070 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: All he remembered were the good things about you. 188 00:21:31.080 --> 00:21:34.530 align:center line:-1 Right. They really always remembered the good things about you. 189 00:21:34.540 --> 00:21:45.100 align:center line:-1 We brought some cigarettes and gave her a carton, and she was really appreciative. In fact, I always felt sorry toward him. 190 00:21:45.110 --> 00:21:48.490 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: A little bit guilty toward him, right? 191 00:21:48.500 --> 00:21:57.870 align:center line:-1 I really feel guilty towards him. At that time, actually, I was not stupid enough to think Shagu was a class enemy. 192 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:02.320 align:center line:-1 Although that’s how we had been educated, I was not stupid to such an extent. 193 00:22:02.330 --> 00:22:07.100 align:center line:-1 However, you would still think he was different from others. 194 00:22:07.110 --> 00:22:13.810 align:center line:-1 My relationship with others in the village was really good. Why did [I] specifically discriminate against him? 195 00:22:13.820 --> 00:22:24.140 align:center line:-1 Obviously, his family background still made me consider him incompatible. 196 00:22:24.150 --> 00:22:33.040 align:center line:-1 Another thing is that Shagu was an orphan with a bad family background. He had a lowly look to him. 197 00:22:33.050 --> 00:22:43.430 align:center line:-1 Even though he was a strong worker in the production team, he seemed sneaky. 198 00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:49.920 align:center line:-1 He couldn’t stand up straight, and he didn’t make people feel sympathetic or respectful toward him. 199 00:22:49.930 --> 00:23:00.050 align:center line:-1 Therefore, the first impression he made on people was pretty bad. But it wasn’t his fault; it was the fault of the circumstances. 200 00:23:00.060 --> 00:23:05.170 align:center line:-1 There is a writer from Hubei named Hu Fayun. I don’t know if you know of him. 201 00:23:05.180 --> 00:23:09.790 align:center line:-1 Hu Fayun wrote a book titled Mi Dong [Winter of Confusion]; his most famous book is Ru Yan [Such is This World@sars.come]. 202 00:23:09.800 --> 00:23:11.990 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Oh, right! 203 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:24.670 align:center line:-1 Mi Dong is a story about a group of children with bad family backgrounds who form a Mao Zedong Thought propaganda team during the Cultural Revolution. 204 00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:32.980 align:center line:-1 In the beginning there is a section that implies that the protagonist, the propaganda team captain, may in fact be [the author] Hu Fayun himself. 205 00:23:32.990 --> 00:23:41.990 align:center line:-1 [The protagonist] has a music teacher who is impacted by the Cultural Revolution; before, he had greatly respected this teacher. 206 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:57.160 align:center line:-1 When he sees the teacher being made to parade through the streets, cowering and pitiful, his respect disappears; he doesn’t even have any sympathy. 207 00:23:57.170 --> 00:24:05.030 align:center line:-1 That is to say, sympathy for people who were suffering could easily fade away. 208 00:24:05.040 --> 00:24:15.220 align:center line:-1 The sufferers had a kind of non-human appearance, without their own dignity, so it was difficult for them to gain others’ respect and sympathy. 209 00:24:15.230 --> 00:24:19.810 align:center line:-1 After reading the book, I wrote a letter to Hu Fayun, whom I had met before. 210 00:24:19.820 --> 00:24:29.120 align:center line:-1 I said the way I viewed Shagu, to whom I showed no pity, was similar to the music teacher he’d written about. 211 00:24:29.130 --> 00:24:42.590 align:center line:-1 It is because the sufferers themselves gave an appearance of being victims, physically and mentally, so they could not evoke sympathy. 212 00:24:42.600 --> 00:24:50.810 align:center line:-1 I'm not saying this to defend myself. I'm just saying that this was a kind of person shaped by that era. 213 00:24:50.820 --> 00:25:01.990 align:center line:-1 [Hu Fayun] also said that the attitude toward the victims is an interesting psychological issue to research. 214 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:10.050 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Right, right, right. In that historical environment, it was a kind of self-denial on their part. 215 00:25:10.060 --> 00:25:14.100 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: The way you talk about this makes me think it is a unique point of view from which to ponder this issue. 216 00:25:14.110 --> 00:25:23.840 align:center line:-1 Yes, that is why I respect my mother. Though she was put in the “cow shed,” she was a loyal Communist. 217 00:25:23.850 --> 00:25:31.530 align:center line:-1 They pressured her [to confess]. During the Cultural Revolution, it was common for people to betray one another. 218 00:25:31.540 --> 00:25:36.390 align:center line:-1 The most profound case I know was of a math professor at Wuhan University, called XXX. 219 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:45.450 align:center line:-1 He was a high-ranking professor and the honorary director of my research institute. He was that famous. 220 00:25:45.460 --> 00:25:56.680 align:center line:-1 His son, being a young man full of passion, went to China’s border with Vietnam, wanting to cross over and join the war [against the United States]. 221 00:25:56.690 --> 00:26:01.390 align:center line:-1 He was caught and sent back, labeled a traitor [in light of his family background]. 222 00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:06.990 align:center line:-1 What resulted was guilt by association – all his relatives were subsequently condemned. 223 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:13.900 align:center line:-1 [The professor] was locked up and interrogated. They said, "Your son went to the border -- did it have anything to do with you?" 224 00:26:13.910 --> 00:26:20.710 align:center line:-1 I heard that under this pressure, [the professor] eventually implicated about one hundred people. 225 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:26.460 align:center line:-1 It was quite a lot of people, many of them his former students and colleagues. 226 00:26:26.470 --> 00:26:30.140 align:center line:-1 I know there was one person he betrayed, [a student] whose family’s social status was bad. 227 00:26:30.150 --> 00:26:35.990 align:center line:-1 That student’s father had been a city garrison commander for the Kuomintang, so [the son] was imprisoned. 228 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:40.910 align:center line:-1 This young man tried to commit suicide many times without succeeding. 229 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:44.990 align:center line:-1 He was a very, very talented young man who had been a graduate student of [that professor]. 230 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:48.930 align:center line:-1 You could say [that professor] was without moral integrity. 231 00:26:48.940 --> 00:26:55.870 align:center line:-1 However, I cannot blame him, because this kind of extreme pressure could really break people down. 232 00:26:55.880 --> 00:27:00.840 align:center line:-1 My mother was sent to the "cow shed" because someone pointed the finger at her under such pressure. 233 00:27:00.850 --> 00:27:02.990 align:center line:-1 However, when she herself was pressured to disclose something about others, 234 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:11.410 align:center line:-1 she said, “I want to be loyal to the Party. One is one and two is two. Even if you kill me, I can't just say something out of thin air. Doing that would be deceiving the Party." 235 00:27:11.420 --> 00:27:21.690 align:center line:-1 I remember very, very clearly, it was around the Spring Festival of 1969. Our family was taken to [the "cow shed"] to persuade my mother [to confess]. 236 00:27:21.700 --> 00:27:26.770 align:center line:-1 They said, “Look, your family is here; if you go ahead and confess, you can go home early and reunite with your relatives.” 237 00:27:26.780 --> 00:27:33.560 align:center line:-1 It was all lies. When you were done, they would never actually let you go home. 238 00:27:33.570 --> 00:27:42.180 align:center line:-1 At that time, I was 14 years old; my sister was 12. She was younger, and not particularly mature. 239 00:27:42.190 --> 00:27:49.190 align:center line:-1 She leaned over the table, her head buried in her arms. She didn’t speak for hours. 240 00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:57.080 align:center line:-1 Finally, when we were about to go, my sister raised her head and said, “Mom, just say it, as long as you say it, you can go home to celebrate Spring Festival.” 241 00:27:57.090 --> 00:28:03.740 align:center line:-1 My mother said, “You know I cannot deceive the Party.” 242 00:28:03.750 --> 00:28:11.960 align:center line:-1 Of course, my mother did not say, “They’re the ones lying to you; we can’t go home for the Spring Festival even if we confess something.” But my sister believed them. 243 00:28:11.970 --> 00:28:20.780 align:center line:-1 My mother said she could not deceive the Party; if there was nothing to say, she couldn’t say anything. 244 00:28:20.790 --> 00:28:33.810 align:center line:-1 During the Cultural Revolution, you could discern that some people were able to stick to the moral bottom line. My mother is one of them. 245 00:28:33.820 --> 00:28:43.600 align:center line:-1