WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.700 --> 00:00:10.600 align:center line:-1Interviewer: Hello, and thank you for accepting my interview. Could you first tell me approximately when you were born, such as “1940s,” “1950s,” “1960s”? 2 00:00:10.610 --> 00:00:12.390 align:center line:-1 I was born in 1962. 3 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:22.060 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: OK, 1962. During the Cultural Revolution, the decade from 1966 to 1976, where were you living in China? 4 00:00:22.070 --> 00:00:24.790 align:center line:-1 I lived in Suzhou, Jiangsu Province. 5 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:32.690 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: You must have many memories of that period, which you could probably speak about for several days. 6 00:00:32.700 --> 00:00:42.260 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: However, if I only give you ten minutes – or, in other words, during the first ten minutes of the interview, what memories do you most want to share with us? 7 00:00:42.270 --> 00:00:54.690 align:center line:-1 I was only four years old when the Cultural Revolution started in 1966, so I have few clear memories of [the early stage of the Cultural Revolution]. 8 00:00:54.700 --> 00:01:12.690 align:center line:-1 But I have distinct memories of the middle period of it, especially what happened in 1969. The Cultural Revolution had quite a large impact in Suzhou. 9 00:01:12.700 --> 00:01:25.710 align:center line:-1 Every few days search teams would come through our neighborhood to search people’s houses and confiscate their possessions. 10 00:01:25.720 --> 00:01:38.530 align:center line:-1 I remember the winter of 1969 very well; it was a very cold winter. From the time I was a small child, I didn’t live with my parents. 11 00:01:38.540 --> 00:01:49.280 align:center line:-1 I lived with my paternal grandparents, because after graduating from university in the 1950s, my parents went to support the “border region.” 12 00:01:49.290 --> 00:01:54.780 align:center line:-1 In 1953, after my father graduated from Saint John’s University, Shanghai and Shanghai University of Finance and Economics, 13 00:01:54.790 --> 00:02:02.490 align:center line:-1 he was sent to work at the second department of the Beijing Ministry of Commerce; it was the department in charge of foreign trade. 14 00:02:02.500 --> 00:02:14.080 align:center line:-1 At that time, in order to support the Great Northwestern region—which was called “supporting the border” back then—he signed up to go to Xining in Qinghai Province, 15 00:02:14.090 --> 00:02:26.500 align:center line:-1 without obtaining permission from his family. This was in 1956. At that time, my grandfather was living in Suzhou, after retiring from XX Bank. 16 00:02:26.510 --> 00:02:36.490 align:center line:-1 In 1956, to his surprise, he received a telegram from Qinghai. “We don’t have relatives in Qinghai,” [he said,] “Why am I getting a telegram from there?” 17 00:02:36.500 --> 00:02:44.680 align:center line:-1 The telegram said that my grandfather’s oldest son [my father] had already arrived in Xining, Qinghai Province. The Qinghai of that time was totally different from today. 18 00:02:44.690 --> 00:02:56.820 align:center line:-1 After I was born in Qinghai in 1962, my parents thought over the problems of the plateau climate, and when I was only eight months old, they sent me back to Suzhou to live with my grandparents. 19 00:02:56.830 --> 00:03:07.810 align:center line:-1 So I spent my childhood “under my grandparents’ knees.” Let’s go back to something I just mentioned. What happened in 1969? 20 00:03:07.820 --> 00:03:22.150 align:center line:-1 On a very cold winter night, someone knocked on the door, and then a team of Red Guards rushed into my home. They didn’t do anything to our home, but they took away my grandfather. 21 00:03:22.160 --> 00:03:33.900 align:center line:-1 My grandpa did not return that night, and my grandma was very worried. My grandfather was not released until noon the next day. 22 00:03:33.910 --> 00:03:45.230 align:center line:-1 He was asked to confess his “problematic history,” because someone else had revealed [his history] along with that person’s own confession. 23 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:53.570 align:center line:-1 He had a colleague, who was also our neighbor; that colleague’s home was searched [by the Red Guards] and he was asked to inform on his friends. 24 00:03:53.580 --> 00:04:06.060 align:center line:-1 As a result, the neighbor said my grandpa was his best friend, since at the time, they were both senior executives at Shanghai XX Bank. 25 00:04:06.070 --> 00:04:19.350 align:center line:-1 People like them were called “foreign slaves” at that time. Though my grandfather looked calm after he came back, I could tell [he was not]. 26 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:42.050 align:center line:-1 After he got back, he made some decisions. Until then, we had been renting a courtyard home that had about ten rooms. He said, “There are only three of us. This house is much too big.” 27 00:04:42.060 --> 00:05:10.060 align:center line:-1 He said we would voluntarily give it up, and only rent two of its rooms, one upstairs and one downstairs. In addition, we gave away all the furniture to the housing authority for our street. 28 00:05:10.070 --> 00:05:27.040 align:center line:-1 As for all the calligraphy, paintings, and china, we smashed or burned them in our courtyard. I remember this so clearly. There was nothing left of them. 29 00:05:27.050 --> 00:05:35.820 align:center line:-1 I remember asking the Red Guards if we could donate the artwork and china to our nation, but the Red Guards said that they did not want them. 30 00:05:35.830 --> 00:05:47.500 align:center line:-1 They said those were all “capitalist things,” which were not appropriate to have in our home, and it was best to smash them or burn them to ashes. 31 00:05:47.510 --> 00:05:58.760 align:center line:-1 At that time, our landlord was from a well-known family in Suzhou, a descendant of the master of Suzhou Liu [Lingering] Garden. 32 00:05:58.770 --> 00:06:11.770 align:center line:-1 Because our families had been relatives as well as friends for several generations, they had rented one big courtyard of their larger complex to us. 33 00:06:11.780 --> 00:06:30.440 align:center line:-1 Their family was truly impacted. A few trucks came—I don’t even know from where--and took away everything in their home. In their family there was an old grandma and a little grandson. 34 00:06:30.450 --> 00:06:43.980 align:center line:-1 It was truly tragic. These are my memories of the Cultural Revolution. My grandma was someone who had received a bit of education. 35 00:06:43.990 --> 00:06:53.910 align:center line:-1 She was already quite old in 1969, and after the fright [of these events,] she got sick and stayed in bed. 36 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:59.620 align:center line:-1 Less than one month later, she passed away, around the winter solstice in December 1969. 37 00:06:59.630 --> 00:07:11.320 align:center line:-1 I can’t say it was directly caused by the Cultural Revolution, but at the very least, she was terribly frightened on the night my grandfather was taken away. 38 00:07:11.330 --> 00:07:23.050 align:center line:-1 After all, she was quite old. And so in this way, she passed. Afterward, the one thing that my grandfather told me most often was, 39 00:07:23.060 --> 00:07:29.550 align:center line:-1 “You must be careful. Never talk nonsense, and don't talk too much.” 40 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:46.050 align:center line:-1 After he retired, he returned to Suzhou; his friends there were the same type of people—the intellectuals and literati—and all of them were affected [by the Cultural Revolution]. 41 00:07:46.060 --> 00:07:53.560 align:center line:-1 He had a relative who was labeled a capitalist at that time—[he] was the boss of a textile factory. 42 00:07:53.570 --> 00:08:07.410 align:center line:-1 [He and his wife] hanged themselves together. After the suicide, none of their children were there, and the neighbors were the ones who helped take care of the bodies and cremate them. 43 00:08:07.420 --> 00:08:20.370 align:center line:-1 I remember that my grandpa also went to help. From about ’69 to ’70, the Cultural Revolution was quite serious in Suzhou. At the time, within the city center, things were relatively okay. 44 00:08:20.380 --> 00:08:35.910 align:center line:-1 My grandfather did not belong to any work unit in Suzhou, since he had already retired from the bank in Shanghai. The people who came to him were all Red Guards from our neighborhood. 45 00:08:35.920 --> 00:08:51.500 align:center line:-1 We lived in the city; on summer nights, when we sat outside to keep cool, we often heard that something [bad] had happened outside of the city. 46 00:08:51.510 --> 00:09:02.630 align:center line:-1 Some said there were gunshots, or that there were people slashing others with machetes and fishing out their victims’ intestines with harpoons. 47 00:09:02.640 --> 00:09:17.020 align:center line:-1 As these rumors spread throughout the city, everyone was shocked and anxious. Later, after our house had been surrendered and all of our furniture and collections destroyed, 48 00:09:17.030 --> 00:09:33.700 align:center line:-1 I lived in a little room of about ten square meters with my grandfather. As a small child, I felt life was completely different from how it had been. 49 00:09:33.710 --> 00:09:45.690 align:center line:-1 Before [the house was surrendered], I could run around a big house, playing hide-and-seek with the neighbor kids, feeling that I had very large space. 50 00:09:45.700 --> 00:09:53.960 align:center line:-1 But after 1969, everything was different. That’s how things were for my grandpa and me in Suzhou. 51 00:09:53.970 --> 00:10:03.060 align:center line:-1 But my parents were in Qinghai during the Cultural Revolution, and they never told me about [their living situation]. 52 00:10:03.070 --> 00:10:12.080 align:center line:-1 It was only later on, when my father grew old, that they started to talk a little about [what they experienced]. They were sent down to the countryside during the Cultural Revolution. 53 00:10:12.090 --> 00:10:21.520 align:center line:-1 My mom was a doctor. She graduated from Shanghai Second Medical College. As a doctor, she had the professional habit of frequently washing her hands. 54 00:10:21.530 --> 00:10:29.810 align:center line:-1 The Red Guards in Qinghai Medical College said, “If you like washing your hands and keeping tidy so much, how about you go feed the pigs?” 55 00:10:29.820 --> 00:10:47.100 align:center line:-1 They made her do the dirtiest work, but somehow she got through it. Xining is the capital of Qinghai Province. In the border areas around Qinghai, there are many Tibetan districts. 56 00:10:47.110 --> 00:11:02.250 align:center line:-1 At that time, my mom was sent to these Tibetan areas; she was a gynecologist, and traveled around helping Tibetan people with childbirth. 57 00:11:02.260 --> 00:11:11.440 align:center line:-1 She was really good at riding horses, and she would camp and cook outdoors. At that time, even for emergency calls, there was no ambulance, and every doctor had to go on horseback, 58 00:11:11.450 --> 00:11:27.380 align:center line:-1 with assistance and protection from two Tibetan locals. People were often surrounded by wolves, or fell into ice holes. 59 00:11:27.390 --> 00:11:36.530 align:center line:-1 My parents lived in these “border areas,” and they only had one vacation every four years to return and visit their parents. 60 00:11:36.540 --> 00:11:47.140 align:center line:-1 As a result, I could only see my parents once every four years, for one month each time. My father came to Suzhou to visit his father, while my mom went to Shanghai to see her parents. 61 00:11:47.150 --> 00:12:03.920 align:center line:-1 So, my impressions of the Cultural Revolution were mainly about [things that happened] in Suzhou. Now, my mother often tells me about how difficult the environment of the pastureland was. 62 00:12:03.930 --> 00:12:15.670 align:center line:-1 These days, she speaks casually about it all, but back then—since she was Shanghainese, and went to university around Liberation, around the end of the ’40s and the beginning of the ’50s, 63 00:12:15.680 --> 00:12:27.090 align:center line:-1 these kinds of experiences were a cultural shock to her, and left a lifelong impression on [both of my parents]. 64 00:12:27.100 --> 00:12:35.480 align:center line:-1 Because I was living in Suzhou [at that time], I didn’t know much about their circumstances, and only learned more later on. Our school in Suzhou also did "open-door schooling." 65 00:12:35.490 --> 00:12:40.640 align:center line:-1 [At school], kids like me found it hard to hold our heads up, 66 00:12:40.650 --> 00:12:53.670 align:center line:-1 because when we had to fill in our family background [on a form, I wrote] that both my parents were college graduates and my father worked at a bank— 67 00:12:53.680 --> 00:13:06.340 align:center line:-1 oh sorry, I mean my grandfather—we were labeled “foreign slaves.” Although [my grandfather] was not severely impacted, he became a target of street supervision. 68 00:13:06.350 --> 00:13:16.780 align:center line:-1 Some of his colleagues and friends who did not have good interpersonal relations were put in jail—in the south, we cared a lot about interpersonal relations. 69 00:13:16.790 --> 00:13:25.980 align:center line:-1 Some couldn’t bear the misery caused by all of this, so they committed suicide, some by jumping into the river—there were all kinds of situations. 70 00:13:25.990 --> 00:13:34.930 align:center line:-1 In the south, these people all were those with so-called bad family backgrounds. 71 00:13:34.940 --> 00:13:45.040 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: As a little kid, you only met your parents once every four years—how do you feel about this? Do you think it had any influence on your life later on? 72 00:13:45.050 --> 00:14:02.810 align:center line:-1 I think the most direct [influence] might be that I am not as attached to my parents as to my grandparents. But this is not uncommon among the people around me. 73 00:14:02.820 --> 00:14:16.750 align:center line:-1 Children of people like my grandfather were [mostly] college students. At that time, if college students had what was called “revolutionary awareness,” 74 00:14:16.760 --> 00:14:25.630 align:center line:-1 this meant they were aware of the problems of their family background and were thus willing to respond to the calls of the nation. 75 00:14:25.640 --> 00:14:37.360 align:center line:-1 Once they were summoned, many were sent to Tibet, Qinghai, Ningxia, and other “border areas.” So, they all sent their children to live with grandparents. 76 00:14:37.370 --> 00:14:50.410 align:center line:-1 I have many [friends] my age who lived with their grandparents. I lived with my grandparents and didn’t have a deep impression of my parents, since I only saw them once every four years; 77 00:14:50.420 --> 00:15:02.550 align:center line:-1 of course our emotional connection was not that deep. But my grandparents had a great influence on my education. For example, I learned English from my grandpa. 78 00:15:02.560 --> 00:15:16.400 align:center line:-1 Since he worked at a foreign bank, he read English newspapers and spoke English well. My choice to major in English primarily due to my grandfather’s influence. 79 00:15:16.410 --> 00:15:26.480 align:center line:-1 In addition, my grandpa was firmly grounded in the Chinese classics. He had me practicing calligraphy when I was only three years old, and also taught me about the classic texts. 80 00:15:26.490 --> 00:15:40.630 align:center line:-1 At that time, all the schools were shut down and our house had been given up. My grandpa just stayed at home and told me fables and stories from all the books he had read. 81 00:15:40.640 --> 00:16:00.230 align:center line:-1 So, most of my knowledge of traditional Chinese culture came from my grandpa. As a result, I majored in English at college and studied history in graduate school. 82 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:11.720 align:center line:-1 After I came to the United States, I have been able to research modern Chinese history, and have enjoyed it a lot. That’s because the perspectives are different. 83 00:16:11.730 --> 00:16:19.700 align:center line:-1 Due to the absence of political influence [in the United States], I’ve been able to have a relatively objective view of the history of that time. 84 00:16:19.710 --> 00:16:28.830 align:center line:-1 So, my views on life, the world, [and values]—the so-called three views—were influenced by my grandfather the most. 85 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:43.330 align:center line:-1 The climax of Cultural Revolution’s influence on Suzhou happened between 1969 and 1971, before the Lin Biao Incident. 86 00:16:43.340 --> 00:16:56.960 align:center line:-1 In the two years from October 1969 to September 1971, Suzhou was horribly impacted by the Cultural Revolution. My grandfather was quite brave. 87 00:16:56.970 --> 00:17:08.850 align:center line:-1 Although he was “wearing a hat” [given a negative label] himself, he was very generous to his friends and relatives. Some of his friends and relatives were living extremely hard lives. 88 00:17:08.860 --> 00:17:24.850 align:center line:-1 He often went to visit them, sometimes sneaking a few little things to them. He always took me with him, so I knew what was going on. 89 00:17:24.860 --> 00:17:43.470 align:center line:-1 There was one old lady, who was already over 80 at the time, who was locked up in a kitchen. There was no one to even give her a sip of hot water, since she had no children. 90 00:17:43.480 --> 00:18:04.950 align:center line:-1 But [she came from] a prominent family in Suzhou, and her family’s house in the Dongshan area has become a museum now. This woman passed away a few days after my grandpa visited her. 91 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:16.710 align:center line:-1 My grandpa often took me to visit and console others. He’d sometimes take them a few items or give them a little money—one or two RMB. 92 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:28.040 align:center line:-1 Considering his position at the foreign bank and his family background, my grandpa should have— 93 00:18:28.050 --> 00:18:30.180 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: —been more miserable. 94 00:18:30.190 --> 00:18:39.010 align:center line:-1 Yes, he should’ve been more greatly affected. But because he had quite good interpersonal relationships in our neighborhood, [he wasn’t impacted as much]. 95 00:18:39.020 --> 00:18:51.660 align:center line:-1 He was not only supportive of his relatives and friends, but also of neighbors whose living conditions were not so good, because he had some savings. 96 00:18:51.670 --> 00:18:58.300 align:center line:-1 For example, some of my elementary classmates still [say,] “Your grandpa helped me pay the elementary school tuition.” 97 00:18:58.310 --> 00:19:03.730 align:center line:-1 Back then, tuition per semester was only about one or two RMB, but some people couldn't afford it. 98 00:19:03.740 --> 00:19:14.290 align:center line:-1 [In that situation,] my grandpa just paid for them. Also, every time the courtyard collected electricity fees, it was really like “hounding a hero to death just for a bit of money.” 99 00:19:14.300 --> 00:19:22.140 align:center line:-1 Some people couldn't afford to pay, so my grandpa paid the fees for them. He passed away at age 87. 100 00:19:22.150 --> 00:19:30.080 align:center line:-1 There was no one in our neighborhood who didn’t know Old Mister Ye living at #14 Miaotang Alley. 101 00:19:30.090 --> 00:19:38.550 align:center line:-1 His good personal relationships saved him from many of the impacts his colleagues felt during the Cultural Revolution. 102 00:19:38.560 --> 00:19:45.960 align:center line:-1 [Even though] his colleagues hadn’t attained positions like his in the foreign bank, their experiences during the Cultural Revolution were miserable, and their homes were all ransacked. 103 00:19:45.970 --> 00:19:58.100 align:center line:-1 Our home was not searched; what my grandfather did was to give one of our old houses in Dongshan, a suburban area of Suzhou, to the nation. 104 00:19:58.110 --> 00:20:04.820 align:center line:-1 He wrote the letter himself, saying that he was willing to give the house away. Later on, this house became a private museum. 105 00:20:04.830 --> 00:20:05.800 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: It’s still there? 106 00:20:05.810 --> 00:20:22.480 align:center line:-1 Yes, it is. Originally he donated it to a production team, and the team used it as a threshing ground that contained more than one hundred rooms, pavilions, and kiosks. 107 00:20:22.490 --> 00:20:37.000 align:center line:-1 After “reform and opening-up,” since the house was built in the Ming Dynasty, the team divided it into four sections and sold them to four private collectors. 108 00:20:37.010 --> 00:20:45.860 align:center line:-1 It’s open to the public now, and has become a famous tourist attraction in the Lu Alley of Dongting, Dongshan. 109 00:20:45.870 --> 00:20:53.000 align:center line:-1 Why did this leave such a deep impression on me? It was because when he was writing the letter with a brush— 110 00:20:53.010 --> 00:20:55.110 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Oh, you saw him writing the letter? 111 00:20:55.120 --> 00:21:02.520 align:center line:-1 Yes, I did. He said he was willing to donate [the house] to the nation, that we no longer wanted it. 112 00:21:02.530 --> 00:21:12.560 align:center line:-1 He did many things of this kind, and as a result, the nation kept this in mind and did not physically attack him during the Cultural Revolution. 113 00:21:12.570 --> 00:21:18.070 align:center line:-1 But all of his friends were all among what were known as the “four categories”—landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, and bad elements. 114 00:21:18.080 --> 00:21:19.680 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Add the rightists, and it became the “five [black] categories.” 115 00:21:19.690 --> 00:21:29.840 align:center line:-1 Right, adding the ones who worked for foreign [organizations,] these people were the major targets of strict street supervision. 116 00:21:29.850 --> 00:21:37.600 align:center line:-1 Later on, my grandpa also served the residential district by copying and writing things, since he had good writing skills. 117 00:21:37.610 --> 00:21:49.020 align:center line:-1 So, in a word, our family was scared by [my grandfather being taken away] in 1969; afterwards, we basically felt little impact of the Cultural Revolution. 118 00:21:49.030 --> 00:21:53.560 align:center line:-1 The only thing that changed dramatically were our living conditions at home. 119 00:21:53.570 --> 00:21:55.010 align:center line:-1 Interviewer: Thank you. Thank you so much.
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