The Origins of Policing and Civil Rights Movements

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Keith: Why don’t you start with your name, what you’re
doing here,
and what your position is within this sort of
conversation.

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Okay, yeah, so my name is
Eddie Bonilla I'm a postdoctoral fellow in Latinx
Studies

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and in History and so I'm affiliated with the UCIS
Program here at the University of Pittsburgh and also
involved

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with the history department. And so part of what I'm
doing
here is working on my book manuscript and trying to kind
of

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think through these issues of civil rights, policing,
and
ultimately social movements throughout the 20th
century.

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Keith: Have you been to Latin America for your
book or for any sort of research purposes?

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: So I originally did take a trip to
Mexico City
for research purposes when I was... most of my work looks
at

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leftists in the United States, but what I found is that
these
leftists were often in conversation with people in
Mexico

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or people in Puerto Rico and Cuba. And so one of the
things I first
became aware of is that not only are activists speaking to
one another

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but also the nation state as well. And policing and so
the
CIA and Mexican police are working together to try to kind
of quell

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some of these movements and this is kind of a theme that
comes
up throughout Latin America is the relationship between
the United States

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and Latin America especially during the Cold War trying to
contain
communism and make sure that communism isn't in the United
States'

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backyard as it used to be called, or is still kind of
considered today.

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Keith: Yeah, so that's really interesting the way
that,
 like, you're saying that the way that, like,
activists

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and governments and, like, leaders and all that, like,
they communicate
internationally as well as people that are trying to work
against the

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democratic state or the, you know, work for pro-national
purposes.

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Right, so transnationalism is key
here.
So the the movement of not only people and bodies but
the

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movement of ideas as well. So... and this relates for both
communism,
marxism, socialism, anarchism, as well as capitalism and
democracy, right?

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So the United States, wanting to be kind of this global
leader
in democracy and also at the same time promoting
capitalism

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but in Latin America you also have these responses to
United States
imperialism or this kind of imposition of U.S. values and
U.S. democratic style.

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But sometimes what happens is there's a little bit
of…
what's the word I'm looking for... an unequal power
relationship

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where some of these... in some of these Latin American
nations you see
that the citizens are losing land to United States banana
companies

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or to oil companies and so this creates this sort of
tension between
activists fighting for their own kind of
self-determination their own rights

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against an imperial power that is the United States.
And so this is kind of the trend of 20th century U.S.
Latin America

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relations even 19th century as well, right, but also even
stretching
back to older imperial powers...Europe, places like
England and Portugal

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and the Spanish who are the original, I guess I'll use
the word conquerors of Barbados, of Cuba, of Haiti, of
places

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in Brazil. And this is kind of going back to the slave
trade right,
and this relationship between a colonial entity or a
colonial

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holding to these imperial powers and what are they doing
is producing
sugar, producing cotton, producing these kind of global
commodities

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that makes these nations rich. And so in the long kind of
arc of history
then, what you have is when people try to take back the
land that these

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products are being used on is they're met with resistance
by their own nation state, by the those that are in charge as well as those
that are backing these

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groups people from the United States these kind of
connections…
there's these connections between the CIA and banana
companies

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and these connections between these different global
elites and so I'm
kind of more interested in the activists and their
responses to this imperialism.

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Keith: You just mentioned the movement of land...
land and movement of people. They seem to be like
intertwined

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and they seem to be, I mean for lack of a better term
racially
motivated, racist. Do... are Black folks in Latin America,
do they have

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the same sort of land... land right status that
Indigenous folks or White Latin Americans do?

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: So this is also kind of a big
important
conversation is the kind of around gentrification or
displacement

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and Afro Latinx folks, Afro Brazilians or others, even
folk... Black folks
in Haiti going back to again back to slavery, were
fighting for land.

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The Haitian revolution is in particular kind of one node
in a longer
Black freedom struggle that is across the diasporas across
nation states.

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And so yeah in Brazil you have examples of Afro-Brazilians
owning
or reclaiming land but also being displaced so whether
it's being kicked

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out of land that they've been on for a long time, and then
here it kind of correlates to, I think of like Harlem in New York and the
gentrification

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process that's going right now in Harlem but also in
Oakland, California
and so these kind of... here in Pittsburgh. And so you
have these

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kind of mo... you have these different types of different
forms of
displacement but also thinking about kind of the way that
place is policed.

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There's examples of Afro-Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico
being policed more heavily than, you know, some other more
White suburban

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kind of locations and so there's this kind of weird
relationship between
there might be more crime in these areas but these areas
already

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being more heavily policed due to race and
policing kind of seeps into everyday life, right.

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It seeps into the way that you go to, perhaps, how you
go
to the grocery store if you're driving and I'm thinking
here of people who are

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quote unquote deemed illegal in the United States or
illegal in whatever
nation that you're thinking about, in Mexico or in Brazil.
And so something

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as simple as going to the grocery store is seen as kind of
a
threat to some folks. You're scared that you're going to
be kind of

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stopped by the police and what I want to
say is that there's different types of policing,
right.

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There's everything from local policing departments to kind
of statewide
or we're thinking here in the US context statewide like
highway patrol

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but then this also goes bigger, right, the military, the
Army,
the Navy, the Air Force, the Marines as well as you know
the CIA,

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the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of
Investigation
and then now I'm thinking about Immigration Customs
Enforcement, ICE.

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And then thinking again also border patrol down in the
southern
border and also the northern border between the US and
Canada.

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But yeah, so all to kind of come back around to say
that
Black bodies are especially policed both in the U.S. and
in

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throughout the Americas in a way that's...
it's a higher rate than in than other groups of
people.

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Keith: Oh, the police brutality... the way that
policing
happens in America versus Latin America…

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is there a difference and is there a reason, a stark
reason for that difference?

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Okay, yeah, so there's definitely a lot
of similarities and
definitely a lot of differences as well in the styles of
policing.

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But for one example in 2014 when Trayvon Martin is killed
here
in the United States, there's an example of an
Afro-Brazilian woman

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being dragged in the streets by Brazilian police and
it...both of these murders
are put on YouTube and they go viral and thinking about
you know our 2010s

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and how this stuff kind of circulates very quickly
is...
I believe as Keisha Khan Perry talked about in her own
presentation

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with the webinar is that, you know, Brazilian police don't
hesitate to shoot
often times the way that United States police are not
hesitant to shoot

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on a moment's notice. And you know you'll have examples
particularly
brought up...brought to light by the Black Lives Matter
movement

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or the movement for Black lives here in the US talking
about,
well why is X person being shot 14, 16, 20  times in the
back

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or, you know, why is there so many bullets being shot at
some
of these folks and police throughout Latin America also
have

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many countless examples of murdering folks on the streets
and there's examples of in Puerto Rico as well of
again Afro-Puerto Ricans being murdered.

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Sometimes Afro Puerto Rican trans folk are being murdered
in the way
that's being kind of placed, and so you have these
examples

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and part of this goes back to again this conversation
between
the U.S. and Latin America is militaries are also
speaking.

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And so a lot of local police departments or military
police in…
throughout the Americas are trained by U.S. policing
agencies.

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Sometimes it's by the Los Angeles PD, sometimes
it's by higher entities such as the CIA.

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And so what you see is you see a lot of these techniques
and these tactics
that are being used that are quote unquote
counterinsurgency

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or trying to counter subversives or counter folks that
are...
what's the... are deemed... can't think of the word…

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essentially folks that are deemed as you know a danger
to the nation-state or a danger to the way that society
should be

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ordered and so for folks in Latin America similar to folks
here in the
US is that spaces are policed differently. And so Black
bodies are

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going to be policed at a higher rate in certain
spaces.
There's examples for example of you know African Americans
being afraid

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of going to the woods and they're afraid of hiking or
they're afraid
of you know doing these outdoor activities that other
racial and ethnic groups

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do kind of without a second moment's notice.
But there's this long recollection of you know these
murders

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and these hangings these public hangings of African
Americans
during the Jim Crow era or just the way that slaves were
running

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into the woods trying to get away from their slave masters
and also possibly
being met with their own demise, you know, when they're
trying to be recaptured.

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And so things like that are I think common in both
location…
in throughout the Americas is this kind of notion of
certain spaces

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are available to certain groups of people and then
also these certain spaces are going to be policed more
heavily.

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Here I'm thinking of the war on drugs in the United States
and
South Central Los Angeles or Compton in Los Angeles in
California,

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Oakland, Detroit...these locations where there was
predominantly Black
communities also Black and Latinx communities and then
Afro-Latinx folks

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as well... and this notion that you know drugs are being
sold here,
prostitution is happening here. And what people such
as

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Michelle Alexander have talked about this kind of new Jim
Crow this mass incarceration that's going on in the United States is pretty
unique to the US

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as far as how many Black and Latino -- Latinx folks are
incarcerated.
And so that's related to these policing styles and
techniques to go into these

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communities and to heavily, you know, police them and
here I'd kind of say you know we can look to hip-hop music
for example,

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where you have groups like the NWA who are talking about
the police
and their own lyrics they get arrested after they're on
stage

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and they sing a song again... they rap a song against
the police in Detroit and the police meets them once they
get off stage.

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And so these types of things are being policed again that
everyday life notion, music, you’re policing, kind
of, the spaces people can go in and out of.

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Keith: What part does race play in all of this?

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, race as you mentioned…
race is one of the the key parts right, and you can't

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also you can't detach race from capitalism either,
so this is why folks talk about racial capitalism as kind
of what the

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nation state is trying to one protect. And so here I'd
like to kind of
step back a little and say local policing departments,

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thinking of New York, and LA, and Philadelphia and also
the
Federal Bureau of Investigation that's founded around the
early

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1900s, are formed because of this fear of these new
immigrant populations
coming into the United States. Originally it's around like
Eastern Europe

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and you know a certain category of White immigrants,
these that were deemed kind of lower than the others,

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and people were scared that these folks were coming in
with these
radical ideas of anarchism, of socialism, of, you know,
not communism

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yet, but eventually of communism as well. But this also
happens with
African American with Black and Latinx folks as well.

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Scholars have talked about what's known as the “Brown
Scare”
or the “Black Scare” where you have this kind of
intimate

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relationship between radicalism and race and
ethnicity.
And so you have nativist sentiments at the turn of the
20th century around

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you know, what should we do with these, you know, these
recently
freed Black people, these recently arrived people from
Mexico

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people arriving later in the 20th century from what the
from
Central America or from South America and also the
Caribbean as well,

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you have to have, you ask this question, well where
are
they going to go? What's the social order going to look
like?

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How do we keep certain folks you know in their rung of
society
versus you know that... I forgot what the original
question was...

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Keith: ...something about, something about race
just talking about race in general how that plays a
role...

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, and so it's not a coincidence
that the FBI and local policing departments, when you look
at their

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kind of numbers there's higher rates of arrests, thinking
again
here of the war on drugs of Black and Latinx individuals
or

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Black and Brown folk I would say and the question then
becomes,
you know if we think about the war on drugs there's a
battle against cocaine,

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or crack, the crack epidemic and the communities that were
kind of more…
these two things were policed differently. Crack being
kind of deemed

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this kind of lower status drug for that was found more in
Black and Brown communities versus cocaine found more in wealthy White
communities.

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One received a higher sentencing than the other, and so
all of these things kind of tie back into these greater societal issues
such as disenfranchisement.

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What happens when somebody goes and is incarcerated
they come out and they can lose the possibility to
vote.

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And so what we're seeing today in 2021, but also just
recently in
the 2020 election is you have people in Florida, people in
Georgia that are disenfranchised

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meaning they can't vote in elections. So policing kind of
seeps
in again into that kind of everyday notion of our
life.

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But this stuff is also tied to economics and
de-industrialization
and the loss of jobs in locations such as Pittsburgh that
was hit very heavily

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by de-industrialization and in the 1980s and you have the
leaving of
wealth. So these once vibrant communities are now filled
with empty factories

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filled with empty just places that are now kind of being
turned into
new developments sort of like here. But you know these
things

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are all kind of intertwined, capitalism, racism and
that's
why we talk about racial capitalism, you can't detach the
two from one another.

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And and so police going back are these departments are
founded
for a few reasons; one is to protect capital or to protect
businesses,

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two to protect property... protecting, you know, people's
homes
protecting people's own holdings and their businesses,

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but also to protect against labor unions to protect
against
radicals or Black and Brown radicals. J Edgar Hoover from
the FBI

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will have kind of throughout the 20th century this
important notion
that you know there's going to be a Black messiah that's
going to

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lead the revolution and going to lead Black Americans to
creating
this kind of societal change and he thinks it's going to
be

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Martin Luther King Jr for a while, he thinks it's going to
be Malcolm X for a while. And so the FBI is policing all these different
radical groups and whether they were

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following a kind of communist idea or following a
nationalist kind of
Black pride self-determination position they're being
followed.

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And the nation state is always worried about kind of these
activists and these organizers or even everyday people that are trying to
shake the system,

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right, that are trying to create better economic
conditions,
better education for their own groups of people.

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But this is often kind of times misconstrued as a broader
societal revolution
when it's some of these minor things that these activists
are talking about.

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The Black Panther Party is... originates in Oakland,
California
as an organization that is trying to police the
police.

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They're tired of being, you know, harassed or tracked
down
or followed by the Oakland police or the San Francisco
PD,

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policing department as well as Los Angeles and that's kind
of how they start.
And then they start feeding children. They're...they're
feeding kids breakfast

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because these kids aren't being fed either in their homes
or in their elementary
schools and so they don't want kids to go to school hungry
so all of these

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things are kind of intertwined in more than a few
ways.

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Keith: You bring up capitalism a lot too and makes me
think
of human capital theory and how, like certain people are
probably

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just viewed to be more valuable than other people,
and does that...does the sort of perception of value of
a

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human life play into how police interact with people?

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: I think that's that's kind of at the
heart of this…
there is this kind of dehumanization process. There is
this notion

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that either Black or Brown folk are less than someone
else.
And so I think that might seep into kind of this
notion

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of well you can shoot first because it's a X type of
person versus,
you know, if it is a White person there might be a little
bit of hesitancy

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to shoot and I'm thinking here this stark example
of just, was it January 7th, January 8th 2020, of White
folk kind of

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storming the Capitol right, and you have you did have one
person
that was shot and killed. But then everybody on kind of
the

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Twitter sphere and just on social media or on television
were talking
about kind of, well what if this was the Black Lives
Matter movement?

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What if this was immigrant rights activists? There was
there was people
sharing examples of disability rights activists that were
peacefully protesting

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on the Capitol Hill and were escorted out by police the
same police
that was, you know, present yet at the Capitol when White
act…

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White Trump supporters stormed the Capitol. And so I think
that's kind of
one real example we can look at. And a couple months ago
during

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the movement for Black lives or the summer that just
passed in 2020,
you had, you know, militarized police in very heavily
armed vehicles

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wearing you know outfits that would be styled for war
some…
here in our own domestic situation that we're protecting
the Capitol steps

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from activists that we're talking about you know, we need
to make sure
that Black Lives Matter it move... the movement for Black
lives is

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important this is following of course many killings
and
many murders of Black people, Black everyday people here
in the US

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and I want to stress both Black men and Black women
because this isn't
just...this is something that crosses gendered lines
and... as well as

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the LGBTQ+ community as well. So yeah I think a little bit
of that kind of
starts seeping in and in the longer kind of arc of history
what you see is

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that there's this dehumanization process since slavery
right?
The transatlantic slave trade is embed... it is built on
this notion

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that these people, thinking of Black African slaves, are
less than those
in Europe or less than others. And so this allows for the
slave system

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to kind of develop and be maintained throughout from
the
1500s to the 1800s right and this is something that is
familiar

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to the Americas in general is we were talking that the
slave trade
oftentimes here in the United States we think about you
know slaves

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are brought here, but in reality it was only about 5% of
the
slaves brought to the Americas arrived to the United
States.

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95% are actually going to South America, the
Caribbean,
and places like Central America as well. So you have this
kind of this…

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again, this notion that these humans are
less than someone else throughout the Americas.

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And you can't detach that the slave trade from what we're
looking
at today because this is a hundreds of years of history,
right,

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of these folks being seen as another or being seen as
less.
And what we see then is that...I had something
coming…

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is that this also develops even post-slavery during Jim
Crow during…
and I also had to stress here that there's a... there's
Jim Crow

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relating to Brown folks as well, to Mexicans and to others
as well as
Asian folks so sometimes people will call it Juan Crow or
Jaime Crow

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and then there's Jap Crow and again this goes back to that
policing
of space who's allowed in who's not, segregation,
different

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drinking fountains and, you know, it's easy for us here in
the
United States to think that you know this segregation and
Jim Crow

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is so long in our lifetimes but things don't start getting
better
until after Brown versus Board of Education in the
1950s

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so we're talking less than 70 years. There's still people
alive today
that remember going to separate bathrooms they remember
going to

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separate water fountains and so this kind of notion that
these people are less than. And also relating to Latinx individuals and and
people from Latin America or you know people from Brazil,

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people from Mexico, people from Puerto Rico or Central
America
is that they too were treated as backward or as kind of
needing

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help and this is here I'm thinking of the the turn of the
19th century
the late 1800s into the early 1900s is that the United
States goes from being,

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you know, kind of this isolated country that's looking
inward
trying to expand from the east coast to places like to
what we now…

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now know as California, they acquired
this land in 1848 the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

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But what happens is you then had to consider, well,
what do we do with these Mexicans that are already living
in California,

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what do we do with these Native Americans, these
Indigenous peoples
that are already living in New Mexico that are living in
Colorado?

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And so what happens is you just... you displace them,
right,
you create kind of this notion that they can't be
educated,

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they don't know how to hold on to money, they're
backward
they need help, and this was kind of known as the White
man's burden,

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that White people, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants were to
bring kind of
civilization and progress to Latin America and to those
already in the US but also,

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so these things are going on at the same time, Jim Crow,
and these ideas
that these folks are different than X person they're
different

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they don't have the mental capacity to, you know get a
higher education,
they don't have the mental capacity to go to the same
schools.

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For example in California, Mexican children were expected
to go
to separate schools as well because they were deemed

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that they were, you know, two steps behind White
students.
And even into the present we're just now seeing, you
know,

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the catching up of some Black and Brown students in higher
education. But most universities in the US are still primarily White
institutions and so again,

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going back that these policing and movement social
movements
are all kind of tied to these broader societal issues
of

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unequal education, of unequal economics...and, and so,
yeah.

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Keith: ...like I'm... I'm scared of either of what you
represent
to the things that I've accumulated or to my Whiteness

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or my positionality that I will be somehow attacked or
knocked down a peg or something by people that don't look
like me?

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, and again kind of going back to
this
nativist kind of thinking, around the turn of the 20th
century

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you have the Mexican revolution and you kind of have the
first mass
wave of Mexican immigrants coming to the United States and
again,

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there's this fear of like well, you know, these people are
different
than us and they're coming to the US and so the FBI and
others

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are like well we need to watch them. Some of the
people that are immigrating are anarchists and they are
following

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what's known as Anarcho-syndicalism particularly here of
the
Flores Macron Brothers, and so they create their own
organization

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known as the Partido Liberal Mexicano or Mexican,
and they're in St Louis, they're in Los Angeles, and their
offices are being

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raided and, you know they are being already tracked and
policed and
everything as simple as their newspapers are being kind of
destroyed

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because there is this fear that they're going to try to
change the
social order... yeah, and man I'm losing it now.

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This...and bringing it to the present right, just a couple
weeks
ago in... at the towards the end of 2020 you had a Black
teen

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who was carrying his iPhone, his own personal iPhone
in a hotel and a White woman accused him of stealing her
phone

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and you know the hotel admin was kind of on her side and
it
turned out being that, you know, she lost it in an Uber
like a day or two before.

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And so why is it then that she approaches the Black
teenager?
But also here there's countless more examples of

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Black individuals being in the wrong places and getting
the police called on them. There's examples of Black professors and Black
graduate students

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at some of these elite institutions such as Harvard,
or other schools being kind of questioned about you
know,

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like why are you here? Asking for their ID but not asking
for somebody
else's ID. And so again this kind of policing of space and
so these Black faces

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or these Black bodies in White spaces
automatically kind of raises up an alarm.

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There's examples of, you know, Black individuals Black
business owners
who either owned a home in a you know a condo type of
cul-de-sac

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type of community, gated communities or use kind of these
cooperative
spaces for their businesses and these two different sets
of examples

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where the cops are called on them because people felt
that,
you know, they couldn't own a home in the same place that
they

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owned a home they couldn't have their own business
running
in the same place that somebody else might have their
business running.

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And so automatically the police are called and, you know
there's this
kind of notion of we see these things now so much because
of cameras, right?

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We see police violence we see just again these kind of
individuals trying to police space on their own or this
kind of vigilante justice

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I guess I would say they're trying to commit, is that
Black folk
have to have been dealing with this throughout the 20th
century

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throughout the 19th, 18th centuries, this isn't anything
new.
What's new about 2021 and 2020 and the 2010s in general is
that

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it's now being videotaped on people's iPhones on
people's,
you know their phone cameras. And so this is being kind of
broadcasted

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to the world and broadcasted to people in the United
States
but the same goes for Latin America as well. We're seeing,
as I

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00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:47.910  align:center  line:-1
mentioned earlier, examples of you know the murders of
a
Black woman in Brazil being put onto YouTube and going
viral

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and now we're starting to kind of... folks are...
folks that have been connecting the dots, activists and
everything,

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00:30:54.540 --> 00:31:03.750  align:center  line:-1
but I think now we're kind of having this more broader
conversation about what is policing what does policing look like why is
there police in schools?

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00:31:03.760 --> 00:31:13.040  align:center  line:-1
In particular there's a lot of police in Black and Brown
schools.
I went to a high school that was predominantly 99.9%
Latino

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and we had police officers that were there from the moment
we walked
in to the moment we left campus, even a couple hours after
campus.

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00:31:20.810 --> 00:31:27.290  align:center  line:-1
But in those communities, and I'm from the Southeast LA
area
so not quite South Central Los Angeles and not quite East
LA,

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00:31:27.300 --> 00:31:33.820  align:center  line:-1
but the same thing is happening in those schools is you
have
police there and what the movement for Black lives

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00:31:33.830 --> 00:31:41.850  align:center  line:-1
and Black Lives Matter has created here in the United
States
is a conversation about, you know, how children are going
to elementary

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00:31:41.860 --> 00:31:51.740  align:center  line:-1
school and they're already having an antagonistic
relationship
with the police. They're having this kind of this not good
relationship, and

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00:31:51.750 --> 00:32:00.880  align:center  line:-1
so when they start becoming... when they graduate or when
they're,
you know, just out doing their everyday life, they are
fearful of police brutality.

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00:32:00.890 --> 00:32:11.110  align:center  line:-1
So there is this kind of long history of resistance and
also just kind
of a suspecting look at policing and folks have tried to
talk about,

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00:32:11.120 --> 00:32:21.610  align:center  line:-1
you know, new forms of, you know, what we need to try to
de-escalate
or try to train police to be, to go through a process, to
not have kind of a

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00:32:21.620 --> 00:32:31.200  align:center  line:-1
‘shoot first’ mentality, but they are trained in this
way and there still is this
kind of prevalent notion and this kind of relationship
that's being seen…

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00:32:31.210 --> 00:32:41.930  align:center  line:-1
that's being broadcasted today is, you know, a lot of
these White nationalists
that are active today in White nationalist groups are
oftentimes police officers.

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So you have this intimate relationship of these kind of
ideologies of,
you know Whiteness and what it means to be a proper
citizen being

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enforced by police officers who are kind of already having
these
mental ideas or these notions that these others are
different

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00:33:00.970 --> 00:33:08.910  align:center  line:-1
than them and they're not as good. And it all goes back
again to this
kind of notion of racial superiority and this notion that
you know it's

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White people's job to kind of, you know, make sure that
Black and Brown
people fall in line and it might not be as kind of in your
face as it is…

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00:33:16.280 --> 00:33:25.370  align:center  line:-1
as it might have been back in in the early 20th century as
far as thinking
of you know political cartoons that depicted Black and
Black and Brown

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00:33:25.380 --> 00:33:32.690  align:center  line:-1
people in across the Americas as children as
child-like or as women needing to be saved.

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00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:39.860  align:center  line:-1
All of this stuff is kind of built this ideological
kind
of thread of these people being less than.

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: So this definitely is one area where I
think,
it's like Keisha's a little bit more trained, maybe even
Michele.

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00:33:48.950 --> 00:34:01.750  align:center  line:-1
But I think you kind of see the similarities of you know
Black
folk being police... I'm trying to think of a good way to
answer this...

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00:34:01.760 --> 00:34:10.140  align:center  line:-1
Keith: Yeah, there's a million different ways to talk
about…
to ask it and to answer it... I could ask the question in
a different way.

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You're from Latin descent, Latinx descent?

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah.

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00:34:18.160 --> 00:34:26.710  align:center  line:-1
Keith: ...not African descent, so neither of us are
really
in a position to discuss what it's like to be a Black
person in

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Brazil or in Latin America. But maybe something along
those lines,
like I mean what is it... what do we think it would be
like to be Black in Brazil?

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00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:41.150  align:center  line:-1
That's not probably not the best way to ask...

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00:34:41.160 --> 00:34:48.400  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, I'm trying to think
of a way to...it's a it's a tough one
just given...

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00:34:48.410 --> 00:34:50.330  align:center  line:-1
Keith: Yeah...

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00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:57.750  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: I mean one thing I can say is
that the police response in Latin America is as
intense

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00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:07.130  align:center  line:-1
as it is here in the US if not more. That there is there's
always been
kind of what we can call a movement for Black lives in the
diaspora,

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00:35:07.140 --> 00:35:11.350  align:center  line:-1
in the Americas and I want to make sure to note that it's
not

247
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:20.270  align:center  line:-1
that Black Lives Matter you know...it is kind of a US
centered movement.
It's not that it traveled to other parts of the world and
it's influencing

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00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:26.990  align:center  line:-1
the other parts of the world. Oftentimes we think about
that we think
that the US is bringing things to the Americas or bringing
things to

249
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:35.040  align:center  line:-1
quote unquote third world countries or the “Global
South”
rather there's been political movements against police
violence

250
00:35:35.050 --> 00:35:46.420  align:center  line:-1
against racism throughout the Americas before the 2010s or
before
the notion of you know the hashtag
for Black Lives Matter, there have been

251
00:35:46.430 --> 00:35:52.660  align:center  line:-1
their own respective movements and I believe that's kind
of
what Keisha was trying... Keisha Khan Perry was trying to
get at is that

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00:35:52.670 --> 00:36:04.790  align:center  line:-1
in locations such as
favelas like where you
might see more Black Brazilians
there is this kind of again this heavier police presence
and also again

253
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:13.280  align:center  line:-1
this notion of you know these people are... if we
dehumanize them we can,
you know, shoot first ask questions later and I think that
kind of speaks

254
00:36:13.290 --> 00:36:20.530  align:center  line:-1
a little bit to the quote about you know if the police are
coming
you know kind of runaway type of thing... is that
individuals

255
00:36:20.540 --> 00:36:28.490  align:center  line:-1
on the individual personal level people know... people
know
if they see a police officer coming to their door that
they could be in danger.

256
00:36:28.500 --> 00:36:35.380  align:center  line:-1
They know if they're stopped by a, you know, a police
officer
stopped for a broken taillight they know that they're in
danger

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00:36:35.390 --> 00:36:43.550  align:center  line:-1
they know that, you know, things might not develop the
same way…
things might escalate very quickly if they don't follow X
rules and

258
00:36:43.560 --> 00:36:54.750  align:center  line:-1
sometimes even if they follow what you know kind of
opponents of…
I don't even know how to phrase... that people who don't
understand

259
00:36:54.760 --> 00:37:00.880  align:center  line:-1
what it's like to be Black don't understand what it means
to be,
you know, stopped by the police and fearful that you know
your broken

260
00:37:00.890 --> 00:37:09.200  align:center  line:-1
tail light might cost you your life. I myself am not a
Black individual
so I don't know what this is like, but I do know that you
know,

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00:37:09.210 --> 00:37:14.080  align:center  line:-1
Latinos...Latinos and Latinas and Brown folk
in general are also a little bit afraid of this.

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They are afraid in a different way, sometimes they're more
afraid of
being stopped by ICE. There's
examples of local police being in conversation

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with entities such as ICE, arresting people where
individuals get so
scared to the point where they don't want to go to a
grocery grocery store

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to buy food because they're fearful that they might get
stopped
from their...where they live to where they're going to go
buy their groceries.

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So they...the communities have kind of developed a way
for,
you know, if you need me to go back groceries for you I
will.

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But those kind of, you know, those winks and those nods by
people
in their everyday lives, they know that they're in danger
at a moment's

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notice especially when it involves the police and when it
involves
ICE or CIA or FBI. And I do want to note that this also
relates to other

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types of Latin Americans as well and Brown folk is that
thinking
here of what's known as the Dirty Wars in the 1970s in
South America,

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in Argentina, and Chile, in Brazil, but also in Central
America
in the 1980s in Nicaragua, in Guatemala, and El
Salvador,

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is that you have the creation of these authoritarian
military right-wing
dictatorships who sometimes are backed by the US
financially

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or they're trained by the US and the School of the
Americas, soldiers or generals. And what they do is they use these tactics
that they learned

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00:38:49.580 --> 00:38:59.420  align:center  line:-1
in the School of the Americas on their own citizens, on
Chileans
on Argentinians and sometimes these folks are Black
sometimes they're not.

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But what happened then was this was all in the name of
fighting
communism, right, during the cold war the the “C” word
was... it was a very

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bad word or the “S” word: socialism, which still today
in 2021
is still kind of seen as these words that automatically
mean subversives

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is that the militaries were rounding up people by the
thousands.
ESPN, for example, has a 30 for 30 about a Chilean soccer
stadium

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where it used to be used for, you know, Chilean soccer
teams to
play their games or to play their international games
versus other countries.

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It was used as a detention holding center... we're talking
a full-on
stadium that holds thousands of people... has political
prisoners there

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and what happened in these camps and in
these locations is that people were tortured.

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People were...they were shocked at... not shocked
therapy,
but they were given shock treatment to try to get them to
speak.

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People lost their children, sometimes babies were
kidnapped
and this is all kind of happening during the 70s and 80s
and the US

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knows about these things, maybe not to the amount
to the large amount of the thousands of numbers, but
they're kind of okay

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with it because these these dictatorships were
fighting
you know communism, they were fighting you know that big
“C” word

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that people were afraid was going to shake up the world
order,
that communism was going to spread across the world and
you know

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people all the nations were going to be Red. And so the US
is trying
to prevent this and one way that they did this is that
they were

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00:40:37.260 --> 00:40:44.590  align:center  line:-1
training these militaries and these police departments
to
fight against this stuff. So, not so much related to the,
you know, what

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00:40:44.600 --> 00:40:54.150  align:center  line:-1
it's like to be Afrola...Afro-Latino or Afro-Latina in the
U... 
in the Americas and policing, but I think just kind of
this broader notion of,

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00:40:54.160 --> 00:41:02.880  align:center  line:-1
you know, that there's a lot adopted by the US and the
Americas
that are used and what the US learned from, you know, some
of the

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stuff that was going on in Latin America they now use here
in the
United States, for their counter insurgency movements here
in the US

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00:41:10.810 --> 00:41:21.910  align:center  line:-1
and presently there's new forms of policing such as, you
know, facial recognition. Police like the FBI are using people's ETSY
accounts and their

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00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:30.590  align:center  line:-1
Twitter accounts and their Linkedin’s and you know in
some ways,
we are putting a lot more on the internet as everyday
citizens which makes…

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00:41:30.600 --> 00:41:42.750  align:center  line:-1
might make it a little bit easier for these folks to be
policed and tracked.
But what it creates is that these policing agencies are
using these

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00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:52.700  align:center  line:-1
new techniques and so as policing techniques develop
throughout the 20th
century social movement activists also have to kind of
develop with them.

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00:41:52.710 --> 00:41:59.000  align:center  line:-1
And so there's always this kind of intricate relationship
between
policing and social movements. Sometimes policing can
actually

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lead to the creation of new social movements and sometimes
social movements create new types of policing, or what
some might call 'dialectic.'

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Keith: ...an example of like, of where one has
kind of afforded the other maybe for both sides?

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Because that’s really interesting, like, subject matter
to dive into...

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Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, so there's kind of two types
of examples one relating to Latin America and one relating
to the US.

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But in 1954 in Latin America... in Guatemala a president
was
democratically elected who might have been kind of
socialist

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00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:43.690  align:center  line:-1
or communist leaning might not have been…
it's still kind of debated, and what happened was the US
intervened.

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The US used different types of psycho-psychological
warfare…
they used, they aired was it Orson Welles
End of the World…

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00:42:53.610 --> 00:43:01.330  align:center  line:-1
or one of these propaganda type of radio shows
and they played that on the airwaves making it seem like
there was a

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00:43:01.340 --> 00:43:06.690  align:center  line:-1
revolution happening in Guatemala to create…
to destabilize this newly elected government.

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00:43:06.700 --> 00:43:14.470  align:center  line:-1
And so what happened was that there was a overthrow of
this
democratically elected president and the United States
learned

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00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:21.150  align:center  line:-1
that you know they could do this in other places. 
And what... who was on the ground in Guatemala when this
democratically

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00:43:21.160 --> 00:43:29.250  align:center  line:-1
elected president Jacobo Arbenz was overthrown, is Che
Guevara who...
Ernesto Che Guevara goes on to become one of the key
leaders-

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00:43:29.260 --> 00:43:39.170  align:center  line:-1
he's Argentinian born, but he is now kind of one of
these
key leaders we associate with the Cuban Revolution in the
1950s and 1960s

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00:43:39.180 --> 00:43:48.370  align:center  line:-1
and the Cuban Revolution was an armed struggle versus
in
Guatemala it was a, it was an electoral ballot... struggle
this kind of

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00:43:48.380 --> 00:43:57.830  align:center  line:-1
and the same thing happens in Chile in the 1970s.
Democratically socially elected president Salvador Allende
is elected,

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00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:07.450  align:center  line:-1
but he is later overthrown by a military dictatorship by
Augusto Pinochet,
who is buddy buddy with the US and has ties to the School
of the Americas

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00:44:07.460 --> 00:44:16.320  align:center  line:-1
and he goes on to be one of those people that uses torture
techniques
that he learned on his opponents and he makes people
disappear.

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There's a lot of disappearances during this time.
But back to kind of Guatemala is that Che Guevara learns,
you know,

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00:44:23.650 --> 00:44:31.580  align:center  line:-1
we can't have a revolution without having an armed
revolution.
So this is where you kind of have this moment of
polarization.

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00:44:31.590 --> 00:44:38.730  align:center  line:-1
The left is realizing, you know if we want to create an
actual revolution
we're going to have to take up weapons, we're going to
have to have

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00:44:38.740 --> 00:44:49.110  align:center  line:-1
armed struggle and you know Cuba ends up working out
where
Che and Fidel stormed the Capitol, they overthrow somebody
that was

315
00:44:49.120 --> 00:44:59.290  align:center  line:-1
actually very close to the United States, Fulgencio
Batista,
and what then the political right learns in the Americas
is that

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00:44:59.300 --> 00:45:10.960  align:center  line:-1
they too can use police force on you know, leftists or on
their own opponents so you have this kind of, again
this kind of dialectic between the two.

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00:45:10.970 --> 00:45:17.730  align:center  line:-1
The left learns, you know, we need to
participate in armed struggle where the right learns, you
know,

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00:45:17.740 --> 00:45:26.350  align:center  line:-1
what we need to suppress armed struggle with political
violence.
And so at the end of the day the military and local

319
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:33.270  align:center  line:-1
policing agencies have a monopoly on violence.
And what I mean by that is they have this kind of
unchecked...

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00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:41.380  align:center  line:-1
essentially this kind of green light to
use violence when need be, right?  If you feel threatened
you

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00:45:41.390 --> 00:45:49.010  align:center  line:-1
can go ahead and, you know, do whatever use whatever
technique
you think is suited for the situation and that kind of is
one of the issues

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00:45:49.020 --> 00:45:58.020  align:center  line:-1
we run into right now in our present day moment is that
sometimes
it's easy for a police officer to say I was in danger thus
I…

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00:45:58.030 --> 00:46:05.770  align:center  line:-1
you know, shot 20 rounds or something like that.
But then it turns out being after the fact that it
was...there's examples

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00:46:05.780 --> 00:46:14.270  align:center  line:-1
of like kids having Airsoft pellet guns and,
you know being treated... and there's examples of kids on
Zoom

325
00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:22.110  align:center  line:-1
having kind of these play toys and, you know, being
policed in
those ways. But yeah, so you have this kind of monopoly on
violence

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00:46:22.120 --> 00:46:31.390  align:center  line:-1
from policing agencies and an example here in the United
States
is what's known as the Chicano Movement of the 1960s and
1970s

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00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:36.940  align:center  line:-1
that was a political movement by Mexican-Americans who
were...
at this point were now adopting the word Chicano.

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00:46:36.950 --> 00:46:46.520  align:center  line:-1
They too had issues with police. The Brown Berets in
particular
was an organization created in Los Angeles that was
modeled

329
00:46:46.530 --> 00:46:54.710  align:center  line:-1
after the Black Panther Party up in Oakland
and they wore berets, they wore, you know, military style
jackets

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00:46:54.720 --> 00:47:03.560  align:center  line:-1
they were some of them were idolizing Che Guevara and the
Cuban Revolution. Many Chicano movement activists at that point are looking
at Cuba

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00:47:03.570 --> 00:47:13.790  align:center  line:-1
as a model that is different than the Soviet Union and
different than communist
China and the Black Panthers are also kind of looking to
Cuba and looking

332
00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:21.340  align:center  line:-1
to these other locations-Black activists in general.
Robert F Williams who was an activist with the NAACP

333
00:47:21.350 --> 00:47:28.850  align:center  line:-1
who believed in armed struggle, he eventually had to run
away-he eventually had to leave the United States and ended up in Cuba for
a little bit.

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00:47:28.860 --> 00:47:37.740  align:center  line:-1
Cuba welcomes him with open arms and then later some of
these
Black activists are going to China and Mao Zedong is
opening his arms

335
00:47:37.750 --> 00:47:46.180  align:center  line:-1
to them and saying that the United States has an issue
with race…
doesn't know...it isn't doing its its best with with Black
Americans

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00:47:46.190 --> 00:47:54.500  align:center  line:-1
and he's kind of using it as a propaganda tool for talking
about, you know,
communism is better during the Cold War. But back to the
Chicano movement,

337
00:47:54.510 --> 00:48:04.620  align:center  line:-1
the Brown Berets were infiltrated by the local police
departments
they were always scared that you know they would have an
agent provocateur

338
00:48:04.630 --> 00:48:11.220  align:center  line:-1
amongst their myths and what the FBI and local
policing
departments were able to do is they were able to create
this

339
00:48:11.230 --> 00:48:18.910  align:center  line:-1
kind of notion in people's heads that the person next to
them,
the activist next to them, that they're organizing with
could be a police

340
00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:29.310  align:center  line:-1
agent could be a kind of infiltrator. And so what happened
during 1970
what's known as the Chicano Moratorium it was one of the
largest

341
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:38.650  align:center  line:-1
anti-Vietnam war demonstrations to ever to be held
throughout the United States and it's predominantly
Latinos in LA.

342
00:48:38.660 --> 00:48:49.950  align:center  line:-1
They take to the streets they're promote- they're
peacefully
protesting against the Vietnam war
and eventually Ruben Salazar

343
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:59.350  align:center  line:-1
who is a writer for the LA times at this moment, is shot
and killed
while he's having a beer inside of...inside one of the
bars on the

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00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:09.800  align:center  line:-1
route that the activists were taking. So he was there
reporting on the occasion.
And so his murder... and then also the police brutality,
so the police

345
00:49:09.810 --> 00:49:19.320  align:center  line:-1
end up brutalizing...end up beating up some of these
peaceful protesters
many of the activists then that were present at the
moratorium are realizing

346
00:49:19.330 --> 00:49:28.800  align:center  line:-1
that the police is essentially their enemy right, the
police are coming
after them and so with the Brown Berets...start becoming
a

347
00:49:28.810 --> 00:49:36.730  align:center  line:-1
little bit more radicalized other activists are becoming a
little bit more
radicalized as well. So again this kind of... in that
example the police

348
00:49:36.740 --> 00:49:49.300  align:center  line:-1
actually pushed a few more people into activism into
social movement building.
But then it later became known that the Brown Berets were
going to protest

349
00:49:49.310 --> 00:49:56.710  align:center  line:-1
against, I believe it was Ronald Reagan like,
I could be wrong. They were protesting somebody's
speech

350
00:49:56.720 --> 00:50:05.000  align:center  line:-1
at the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles, which is this large
kind of
really luxurious hotel... my high school prom was
there…

351
00:50:05.010 --> 00:50:13.750  align:center  line:-1
but what happened was a fire was set on a
different floor that wherever the speech was happening and
it

352
00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:24.010  align:center  line:-1
ended up coming out that some of these activists were
arrested
and the person that actually further radicalized the
moment was a police agent.

353
00:50:24.020 --> 00:50:33.770  align:center  line:-1
It was a...it was somebody that had infiltrated the Brown
Berets
and so he actually escalated the war right, he escalated
the types

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00:50:33.780 --> 00:50:41.040  align:center  line:-1
of things that the Brown Berets were trying to do and this
is…
I want to stress that this is something that happens to
other social movement

355
00:50:41.050 --> 00:50:50.560  align:center  line:-1
organizations. The Black Panther Party is always fearful
that they're
going to be infiltrated, and the police... back to this
kind of notion

356
00:50:50.570 --> 00:50:56.980  align:center  line:-1
that they have a monopoly on violence,
is that sometimes assassinations did happen.

357
00:50:56.990 --> 00:51:04.660  align:center  line:-1
Fred Hampton in Chicago, who was a key leader of the Black
Panther
Party there, was building what was known as a Rainbow
Coalition.

358
00:51:04.670 --> 00:51:11.890  align:center  line:-1
He was organizing with the Chicago Young Lords,
which is a Puerto Rican...a primarily Puerto Rican
organization.

359
00:51:11.900 --> 00:51:20.450  align:center  line:-1
He's also organizing with the Young Patriots that are
a
White Appalachian organization. And so this strikes fear
right,

360
00:51:20.460 --> 00:51:31.930  align:center  line:-1
we're seeing this cross-racial coalition and ultimately
Fred Hampton and
another individual are assassinated in and Fred is in his
bed when he's killed.

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And so in some ways it's kind of this notion
of chopping off the head of a snake.

362
00:51:36.710 --> 00:51:46.690  align:center  line:-1
But then there's these other questions. There's these
infiltrators
actually exasperate these racial tensions these group-

363
00:51:46.700 --> 00:51:54.000  align:center  line:-1
intergroup tensions in the Black Power movement between
the
Black Panther Party and an organization known as US that
was

364
00:51:54.010 --> 00:52:01.800  align:center  line:-1
a cultural nationalist organization that was in LA
and there's an example at the University of California Los
Angeles

365
00:52:01.810 --> 00:52:08.450  align:center  line:-1
where a shootout happens between these two
organizations
and the two organizations are having this kind of
disagreement.

366
00:52:08.460 --> 00:52:17.480  align:center  line:-1
But the FBI was actually magnifying this disagreement.
They were publishing fake documents by either side of the
groups,

367
00:52:17.490 --> 00:52:24.850  align:center  line:-1
talking badly about the other group. And so they were
kind of pushing and trying to press on these kind of
divisions

368
00:52:24.860 --> 00:52:30.690  align:center  line:-1
to create further divisions in the Black Power
movement as well as this broader Black freedom
struggle.

369
00:52:30.700 --> 00:52:39.820  align:center  line:-1
And some of these tactics that they're using here in Los
Angeles
during the 60s and 70s go back to 1954 and Guatemala
and

370
00:52:39.830 --> 00:52:50.310  align:center  line:-1
using the psychological warfare. The FBI the CIA at this
point is use
is doing they're dropping leaflets, they're dropping
leaflets

371
00:52:50.320 --> 00:53:00.540  align:center  line:-1
that are against Jacobo Arbenz, they are creating again
this kind of massive…
they're having this massive psychological warfare to try
to create...

372
00:53:00.550 --> 00:53:09.680  align:center  line:-1
to try to destabilize the government and here in the US
that happens
as well trying to destabilize these Black
organizations.

373
00:53:09.690 --> 00:53:20.720  align:center  line:-1
But then also the US tries to use the similar tactics
they
use in Guatemala in Cuba with the Bay of Pigs.

374
00:53:20.730 --> 00:53:31.590  align:center  line:-1
The United States famously tries to attack Fidel and Che
and this
newly established Cuban government or this newly
established Cuban regime.

375
00:53:31.600 --> 00:53:40.460  align:center  line:-1
And they fail. And the reason that they fail is that they
don't recognize
that many of the Cubans actually were rooting for the
revolution,

376
00:53:40.470 --> 00:53:48.600  align:center  line:-1
but also that Che Guevara had learned, you know, we need
to
be ready for US intervention because I saw what they did
in Guatemala.

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00:53:48.610 --> 00:54:00.280  align:center  line:-1
They're going to try to do it here in Cuba as well. And so
they're ready for it and they quell this kind of Bay of Pigs counter-attack
I guess I'll call it and, yeah.

378
00:54:02.100 --> 00:54:09.190  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, so you have kind of
the School of the Americas around the 1940s in the

379
00:54:09.200 --> 00:54:16.680  align:center  line:-1
Panama Canal zone, it later moves to Fort Denning,
Georgia.
But essentially what happens at the School of the
Americas

380
00:54:16.690 --> 00:54:23.810  align:center  line:-1
is that different military leaders from throughout the
Americas
come and they you know they get a crash course on
these

381
00:54:23.820 --> 00:54:33.290  align:center  line:-1
new styles of military techniques or investigative
techniques
and even here I'm thinking of, you know what we now know
of

382
00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:39.120  align:center  line:-1
waterboarding and what happens with the Iraq
war and in the treatment of prisoners then.

383
00:54:39.130 --> 00:54:47.020  align:center  line:-1
But you have that these different leaders learn these
techniques
and they apply them to their own citizens and as I
mentioned

384
00:54:47.030 --> 00:54:56.520  align:center  line:-1
earlier is you do have examples of mass disappearances
and again the shock treatment stuff. But you have
leaders

385
00:54:56.530 --> 00:55:03.230  align:center  line:-1
like Ephraim Rios Mott in Guatemala who's a graduate of
the
School of the Americas and all of this conversation again
is

386
00:55:03.240 --> 00:55:12.220  align:center  line:-1
kind of encapsulated by the Cold War again this notion of
we need
to contain communism as far away as possible.

387
00:55:12.230 --> 00:55:19.320  align:center  line:-1
And this is also related to the United States' own foreign
policies
at the turn of the 20th century in the around the

388
00:55:19.330 --> 00:55:29.550  align:center  line:-1
in the 19th century of the Roosevelt Corollary the Monroe
Doctrine
that essentially what they're arguing is that, you know,
no more colony-

389
00:55:29.560 --> 00:55:36.550  align:center  line:-1
no more European colonies in the Americas that
Latin America would be the backyard of the United
States.

390
00:55:36.560 --> 00:55:46.340  align:center  line:-1
And this all again this relate this expansionism that's
going on by
the US, the US obtains Puerto Rico as a protectorate in
1898.

391
00:55:46.350 --> 00:55:56.680  align:center  line:-1
The United States inserts itself in a new Cuban
constitution
around the 1890s and 1900s known as the Plat Amendment

392
00:55:56.690 --> 00:56:03.680  align:center  line:-1
that essentially says, like if Cuba wants to deal with
another
foreign power it's got to go through the United
States.

393
00:56:03.690 --> 00:56:12.320  align:center  line:-1
So they can't have their own affairs without being kind of
watched
by Big Brother and this is what Fidel and Che and these
Cuban

394
00:56:12.330 --> 00:56:18.510  align:center  line:-1
revolutionaries in the 50s and 60s are going to kind
of
harken back to saying like we want our own country.

395
00:56:18.520 --> 00:56:28.980  align:center  line:-1
Puerto Rico is still a protectorate of the United States
in 2021,
but all to kind of say that the United States is very
fearful that you know,

396
00:56:28.990 --> 00:56:38.010  align:center  line:-1
if Cuba becomes a communist nation it's only X miles
away
from the Florida shores that means communism is
closer.

397
00:56:38.020 --> 00:56:43.650  align:center  line:-1
So that's why the Cuban revolution receives
an embargo it causes an embargo.

398
00:56:43.660 --> 00:56:52.310  align:center  line:-1
But what happens is that the US who is training these kind
of
military dictators at the School of the Americas or
people

399
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:57.760  align:center  line:-1
who would go on to become military dictators I should
say,
at the point that they're at the School of the
Americas

400
00:56:57.770 --> 00:57:08.730  align:center  line:-1
they're not presidents yet or dictators yet they are
military generals,
is that again these countries are going to be
destabilized.

401
00:57:08.740 --> 00:57:18.390  align:center  line:-1
Nations with long democratic traditions like Chile,
they had kind of these massive political parties the cat-
related

402
00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:25.830  align:center  line:-1
to catholicism related to communism related to kind of
you know conservatives and left liberals.

403
00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:31.980  align:center  line:-1
And you know these different kind of political parties
that we don't so much see here in the United States,

404
00:57:31.990 --> 00:57:39.000  align:center  line:-1
they had a rich tradition of elect-democratically
electing
their own presidents where, you know, no party had won

405
00:57:39.010 --> 00:57:46.680  align:center  line:-1
I believe two elections in a row for a good amount of
years.
So there was this kind of mass turnover of who would be
elected

406
00:57:46.690 --> 00:57:57.210  align:center  line:-1
from which parties and so 1973 happened, Salvador
Allende
leftist socialist communist leaning president and what
happens-

407
00:57:57.220 --> 00:58:05.930  align:center  line:-1
what is important to tie here is back to capitalism
right,
the US has economic interests in many Latin American
nations

408
00:58:05.940 --> 00:58:13.530  align:center  line:-1
in Guatemala, for example, they own some crazy
percentage
of the arable land, meaning land that can be, you know,
used

409
00:58:13.540 --> 00:58:20.630  align:center  line:-1
for farming and X things. Same thing with Honduras,
also
same thing with different sugar companies in other
parts

410
00:58:20.640 --> 00:58:28.750  align:center  line:-1
of the Americas but what happens is that the US is
controlling
so much land that they are scared that if you know Jacobo
Arbenz

411
00:58:28.760 --> 00:58:40.270  align:center  line:-1
is elected president in Guatemala in 53 or 54 is that
they're
fearful that he is going to redistribute land that he's
going

412
00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:47.940  align:center  line:-1
to take away land from the the United Fruit Company
which is a US owned company, this transnational massive
company

413
00:58:47.950 --> 00:58:58.930  align:center  line:-1
that owns land in many nations that they're fearful that
Arden
is going to redistribute or socialize various industries,
the electric companies,

414
00:58:58.940 --> 00:59:08.310  align:center  line:-1
the you know gas and water works and nationalization
is kind of tied to this notion of socialism and again
socialism

415
00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:17.530  align:center  line:-1
or communism during the Cold War is the boogeyman.
And so things that might not have even been you know
communist

416
00:59:17.540 --> 00:59:24.370  align:center  line:-1
oriented that were more kind of nationalistic,
were read through a Cold War lens by US officials.

417
00:59:24.380 --> 00:59:29.550  align:center  line:-1
They they see the redistribution of land and
they automatically think, oh like oh no here comes
socialism

418
00:59:29.560 --> 00:59:37.640  align:center  line:-1
or communism where it might just be you know a
president is trying to do best for his own citizens
national interests.

419
00:59:37.650 --> 00:59:44.820  align:center  line:-1
There's people who didn't own a piece of land that
couldn't you know, create...have subsidence farming for
themselves

420
00:59:44.830 --> 00:59:50.500  align:center  line:-1
that wanted and needed land and there was a lot of
land
that was being used again by this banana fruit
company.

421
00:59:50.510 --> 00:59:59.120  align:center  line:-1
And so the same goes in other locations as well and
what's a way to kind of prevent these you know,
democratically elected

422
00:59:59.130 --> 01:00:06.610  align:center  line:-1
presidents from socializing or nationalizing industries
or
land or businesses is having somebody that's going

423
01:00:06.620 --> 01:00:14.040  align:center  line:-1
to be against the stuff---a military dictator.
And again I’m not really sure how much the United
States

424
01:00:14.050 --> 01:00:20.520  align:center  line:-1
absolutely knew about how many thousands of people
go missing but we need to kind of have a conversation

425
01:00:20.530 --> 01:00:27.710  align:center  line:-1
around human rights, right, human rights violations
is-
we talked a little bit about dehumanization of
individuals

426
01:00:27.720 --> 01:00:35.890  align:center  line:-1
but there's also this broader mobilization of human
rights
organizations that the WHO is who I'm thinking of and,
but

427
01:00:35.900 --> 01:00:44.040  align:center  line:-1
also other groups and this is again kind of this
relationship
between policing and social movements is that out of
these

428
01:00:44.050 --> 01:00:54.160  align:center  line:-1
kind of massive disappearances these mass murders,
there's been movements by individuals that have been
trying to right

429
01:00:54.170 --> 01:01:01.160  align:center  line:-1
the wrongs of what happens in the 70s and 80s
throughout
the Americas. I'm thinking here of the example of what
are

430
01:01:01.170 --> 01:01:10.060  align:center  line:-1
known as the Mothers of La Plaza,
or mothers of the you know of a certain space and that's
right…

431
01:01:10.070 --> 01:01:19.700  align:center  line:-1
that was a bad... essentially, yeah essentially,
mothers
and grandmothers are still looking for their kids in 2021
that

432
01:01:19.710 --> 01:01:24.980  align:center  line:-1
disappeared in the 70s or 80s that want
to know, you know, where is my son buried?

433
01:01:24.990 --> 01:01:31.570  align:center  line:-1
Where is my daughter buried? My daughter was pregnant,
what happened to the baby while they were being
policed?

434
01:01:31.580 --> 01:01:41.210  align:center  line:-1
And sometimes this...these more kind of wealthy elite
families
actually adopted the kids of these people that were being
detained

435
01:01:41.220 --> 01:01:48.420  align:center  line:-1
by these military dictatorships what are known as
La Saparacillos, The
Disappeared, and so these mothers and these

436
01:01:48.430 --> 01:01:57.020  align:center  line:-1
grandmothers every, I believe it's every Thursday,
they go to the plaza in Buenos Aires in Argentina and they
wear

437
01:01:57.030 --> 01:02:05.270  align:center  line:-1
the images of their kids and they're asking
where is my- again where's my where's my son? Where's my
daughter?

438
01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:12.250  align:center  line:-1
And these kind of mass graves are now being
discovered in Guatemala in Argentina.

439
01:02:12.260 --> 01:02:20.910  align:center  line:-1
There's actually a professional team of
anthropologists
that their mission is to find mass graves like, through
the Americas.

440
01:02:20.920 --> 01:02:25.580  align:center  line:-1
They've been commissioned in Guatemala
where death squads were being used.

441
01:02:25.590 --> 01:02:33.570  align:center  line:-1
And so these death squads were committing genocide on
Indigenous Guatemalans in the 70s and 80s because
sometimes

442
01:02:33.580 --> 01:02:41.170  align:center  line:-1
Indigenous folks are seen as backward or kind of this
this kind of group of people that are connected to the

443
01:02:41.180 --> 01:02:47.430  align:center  line:-1
past that isn't progressing and isn't civilizing
and they're holding on to their own ways.

444
01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:53.800  align:center  line:-1
And so you fi- you have the discovery of mass
graves in Argentina, the discovery of mass graves in
Guatemala,

445
01:02:53.810 --> 01:03:01.690  align:center  line:-1
you also have the discovery of mass graves in El
Salvador,
what's known as the Massacre at El
Mozote where hundreds of people –

446
01:03:01.700 --> 01:03:09.940  align:center  line:-1
and we're talking men women and children–
are being found. Skulls that are smashed from children

447
01:03:09.950 --> 01:03:16.090  align:center  line:-1
and these are human rights violations, right.
And so different organizations have come out of these
things,

448
01:03:16.100 --> 01:03:24.860  align:center  line:-1
truth and reconciliation commissions trying to kind of
right the
wrongs and and I believe even a few years ago there
have

449
01:03:24.870 --> 01:03:35.360  align:center  line:-1
been military soldiers that have been charged with murder
and charged with
these kind of retroactive crimes that they committed in
the 70s and 80s.

450
01:03:35.370 --> 01:03:44.060  align:center  line:-1
Again part of it in the name of fighting communism but
part of it also in the name of just fighting dissidents or opponents of
these military dictators.

451
01:03:44.070 --> 01:03:51.430  align:center  line:-1
And this included college students, this included
activists,
sometimes it included communists. You could be arrested
for having

452
01:03:51.440 --> 01:04:01.370  align:center  line:-1
you know, Karl Marx's Communist
Manifesto in your building.
You can get arrested for having Che Guevara's poster on
your wall.

453
01:04:01.380 --> 01:04:08.820  align:center  line:-1
And so all these things, and I always tell my students,
you know,
many times it was people that are our age people

454
01:04:08.830 --> 01:04:16.860  align:center  line:-1
that are that were 18, 19, 20, curious about the world
that were reading X literature in their classrooms, and
could be

455
01:04:16.870 --> 01:04:23.730  align:center  line:-1
arrested based on what their course books were.
And so all of these things are kind of tied in and
these

456
01:04:23.740 --> 01:04:32.590  align:center  line:-1
counterinsurgent tactics do have kind of their roots
in
the School of the Americas. And so the question then
becomes,

457
01:04:32.600 --> 01:04:37.900  align:center  line:-1
you know, well what role does the US-
what what blood does the US have on
its hands?

458
01:04:37.910 --> 01:04:48.190  align:center  line:-1
And one kind of major thing to consider here is that this
is very much
tied to immigration or what some would deem an immigration
problem right.

459
01:04:48.200 --> 01:04:55.380  align:center  line:-1
The last couple years we've been learning about these
mass caravans from Central America from Guatemala from

460
01:04:55.390 --> 01:05:04.010  align:center  line:-1
Nicaragua from these different Central American
countries,
El Salvador, that are that, you know, are being...

461
01:05:04.020 --> 01:05:08.990  align:center  line:-1
that are immigrating to United States and I try to tell
students
like, who wants to leave their home?

462
01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:17.060  align:center  line:-1
Who physically wants to leave the place that they've
known
since they were a child willfully and to journey thousands
of miles across,

463
01:05:17.070 --> 01:05:26.950  align:center  line:-1
not only their own country but to journey across
Mexico?
And so they face policing from the Mexican government,

464
01:05:26.960 --> 01:05:31.490  align:center  line:-1
the Mexican government too is also having–
they have their own southern wall and they're trying to
police

465
01:05:31.500 --> 01:05:39.530  align:center  line:-1
their borders while also trying to police the
northern border with the United States. And here it goes
back

466
01:05:39.540 --> 01:05:45.580  align:center  line:-1
to that conversation again, right, of these
conversations
between nation states the US and Mexico having this
relationship

467
01:05:45.590 --> 01:05:52.480  align:center  line:-1
dating even back further back to the 1940s and
1950s of what's known as Operation Wetback.

468
01:05:52.490 --> 01:06:01.510  align:center  line:-1
And Operation Wetback was a program of mass
deportation
or of the deportation of Mexican immigrants, right back to
Mexico.

469
01:06:01.520 --> 01:06:08.590  align:center  line:-1
And Mexicans tried to enforce their own border then
and now we're seeing that they're enforcing the border

470
01:06:08.600 --> 01:06:19.310  align:center  line:-1
once again and sometimes in more ruthless ways than than
the
US government does in their own border. And so some these
mass

471
01:06:19.320 --> 01:06:26.970  align:center  line:-1
immigration these massive waves of immigration
we can tie them back to these wars of the 70s and 80s

472
01:06:26.980 --> 01:06:34.710  align:center  line:-1
in the Americas and so for the United States to
recognize,
you know, that they had a hand in El Salvador, that they
had a hand

473
01:06:34.720 --> 01:06:42.170  align:center  line:-1
in Guatemala that has now created this immigration
quote-unquote crisis,
is that they would have to admit that they, you know,
trained

474
01:06:42.180 --> 01:06:52.620  align:center  line:-1
or they had a hand in funding some of these campaigns.
And so they're-- it's not a coincidence that Cubans,

475
01:06:52.630 --> 01:06:59.340  align:center  line:-1
receive kind of citizenship a little bit more easier
here
in the United States than someone from El Salvador or
someone

476
01:06:59.350 --> 01:07:08.360  align:center  line:-1
from Guatemala who is seeking political asylum. The reason
being,
if the US admits that Salvadorians and Guatemalans should
have

477
01:07:08.370 --> 01:07:17.340  align:center  line:-1
political asylum is then kind of acknowledging that, you
know,
there's a political crisis or there's a military crisis in
these nations.

478
01:07:17.350 --> 01:07:28.900  align:center  line:-1
And so the kind of if we follow the the trail, we follow
the money, we follow the weaponry, we follow the military techniques, it
kind of comes back to the US, right?

479
01:07:29.850 --> 01:07:34.620  align:center  line:-1
Keith: ...what does all this do to the psyche of a person,
you know?

480
01:07:34.630 --> 01:07:42.160  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, I think I do think I'm a little
bit
more equipped to talk about kind of the Brown Latino

481
01:07:42.170 --> 01:07:48.780  align:center  line:-1
experience or even just the the White Latino
experience a little bit more. But it relates a little
bit

482
01:07:48.790 --> 01:07:57.630  align:center  line:-1
to Afro-Latinx individuals as well and if not
magnified.
But I think of here of immigrants right in the United
States

483
01:07:57.640 --> 01:08:06.590  align:center  line:-1
of Dominican...Dominicans in the US particularly
Dominicans you know in regions such as New York but
also

484
01:08:06.600 --> 01:08:15.910  align:center  line:-1
people from, you know Jamaica people from other parts
of the Caribbean, Haiti. So Haitians in Florida and, you
know,

485
01:08:15.920 --> 01:08:23.730  align:center  line:-1
it is that, you know, there's these certain types
of codes that you have to live by that other folks
don't...

486
01:08:23.740 --> 01:08:29.500  align:center  line:-1
aren't really aware of. There was what was known as
Sundown Towns throughout the America- throughout the
United States

487
01:08:29.510 --> 01:08:36.710  align:center  line:-1
where Black and Brown folk knew, you know, if the
sun's
going down I better be indoors because you know that
could

488
01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:46.180  align:center  line:-1
be seen as dangerous if I'm out after the sun goes
down.
But thinking in particular the immigrant experience of

489
01:08:46.190 --> 01:08:52.940  align:center  line:-1
you know for example an immigration raid. If your home
is
raided it's normally not in a nice gentle manner.

490
01:08:52.950 --> 01:09:00.980  align:center  line:-1
It's going to be in a kind of loud way that can scare
anybody
and William Lopez is somebody who just wrote a book called
Separated,

491
01:09:00.990 --> 01:09:09.710  align:center  line:-1
who he talks about a county in Michigan and I believe he
gives
it a pseudonym so that the reader doesn't know exactly
who

492
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:17.680  align:center  line:-1
are the immigrant folks he's talking about or the
immigrant community.
But what happens is he details a raid of a home that's
above a–

493
01:09:17.690 --> 01:09:24.820  align:center  line:-1
auto mechanic business and one of the women in the
home
was pregnant and she got-- or she had just had a
newborn

494
01:09:24.830 --> 01:09:31.730  align:center  line:-1
and she was so frightened that she could no longer
produce breast milk. And, so this kind of there's this

495
01:09:31.740 --> 01:09:42.310  align:center  line:-1
not only mental health but also this physical health
tied
component to being scared of policing, whether it's
ICE

496
01:09:42.320 --> 01:09:51.620  align:center  line:-1
or a different type of policing agency is that it does
cause
you know stress, it causes this notion that you

497
01:09:51.630 --> 01:09:57.570  align:center  line:-1
have to watch your back you have to watch your every
step.
And and I gotta imagine it's exhausting, right, knowing,
you know,

498
01:09:57.580 --> 01:10:05.390  align:center  line:-1
whether you're a Black person in the United States
or in the Americas or a quote-unquote immigrant here in
the United States

499
01:10:05.400 --> 01:10:11.500  align:center  line:-1
who is deemed quote-unquote illegal,
is that, you know, you're always on alert.

500
01:10:11.510 --> 01:10:16.300  align:center  line:-1
You're always on constant surveillance and that
doesn't
do any good for the physical body.

501
01:10:16.310 --> 01:10:25.790  align:center  line:-1
And then as far as the mental aspect goes is some
folks deal with it very differently. Many people
particularly

502
01:10:25.800 --> 01:10:34.540  align:center  line:-1
of Black or of African descent that have ties to slavery
here,
have found kind of a way to create a home here in the
United States

503
01:10:34.550 --> 01:10:40.520  align:center  line:-1
even after being displaced from their
own African roots or their own roots.

504
01:10:40.530 --> 01:10:47.000  align:center  line:-1
And also related to Latin Americans as well leaving
going back to that notion that they're leaving their homes
for good, right?

505
01:10:47.010 --> 01:10:53.360  align:center  line:-1
My own parents, for example, leaving Guatemala in the
70s are coming here to the United States.

506
01:10:53.370 --> 01:10:56.590  align:center  line:-1
It's a nation where they don't know anybody,
they don't know anything.

507
01:10:56.600 --> 01:11:05.500  align:center  line:-1
But Black Americans here in the US have to deal with
you know their own roots their own racial past,

508
01:11:05.510 --> 01:11:10.130  align:center  line:-1
and for some it that means kind of
having that Black cultural pride, right?

509
01:11:10.140 --> 01:11:20.220  align:center  line:-1
Taking pride in being Black and taking pride in
traditions
or religions or whatever it is that it that helps folks
cope

510
01:11:20.230 --> 01:11:28.010  align:center  line:-1
with that constant surveillance, right. And this isn't
true for everybody
that the personal experience of course is going to be
defined by

511
01:11:28.020 --> 01:11:40.360  align:center  line:-1
you know someone's experience and their own run-ins with
the police.
So back to kind of police in schools, I have friends and I
know of folks

512
01:11:40.370 --> 01:11:46.420  align:center  line:-1
that you know might have gotten into a fight–
physical fight at school where they were slammed or they
were,

513
01:11:46.430 --> 01:11:53.160  align:center  line:-1
you know arrested in a certain way by a police officer
and what that does now create is, you know this kind of
again,

514
01:11:53.170 --> 01:11:59.650  align:center  line:-1
this weariness of you know is that police
officer actually going to you know, kill me.

515
01:11:59.660 --> 01:12:07.710  align:center  line:-1
And so all of that kind of plays on the mental health,
and that's kind of the best way I think I can a little bit
speak on it.

516
01:12:08.020 --> 01:12:09.670  align:center  line:-1
Keith: Yeah, that's great.

517
01:12:09.680 --> 01:12:14.090  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: That's a hard... only just because I
don't know
like clear I wish I had, like clear examples...

518
01:12:14.100 --> 01:12:16.530  align:center  line:-1
Keith: What's the what's the next step for us?

519
01:12:16.540 --> 01:12:21.870  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: I think the first step
I think is to listen to Black men and Black women

520
01:12:21.880 --> 01:12:28.600  align:center  line:-1
and listen to the leaders of, you know, Black
communities,
whether it's African-American community or the
Afro-Latinx

521
01:12:28.610 --> 01:12:35.820  align:center  line:-1
community and hearing what they're saying because
as I mentioned, you know, we might, I might not have the
same

522
01:12:35.830 --> 01:12:42.650  align:center  line:-1
experiences with police that someone else might.
And you know taking people for their word and taking
people

523
01:12:42.660 --> 01:12:51.850  align:center  line:-1
for, you know, what they're saying, not just believing
only
you know, video footage on Instagram or on Twitter or on
social media,

524
01:12:51.860 --> 01:12:58.840  align:center  line:-1
but also trying to do our own kind of self-educating.
There's different types of things that non-Black folks

525
01:12:58.850 --> 01:13:04.650  align:center  line:-1
can do to support the Black struggle or to support,
you know, the movement for Black lives and Black Lives
Matter

526
01:13:04.660 --> 01:13:11.680  align:center  line:-1
and that can be anything from attending a protest and,
you know, adding a number to a mass protest.

527
01:13:11.690 --> 01:13:19.900  align:center  line:-1
Or it could be donating money to organizations that
know...
that have a better sense of what they want to do with with
our future.

528
01:13:19.910 --> 01:13:27.290  align:center  line:-1
And so that's kind of I think the basic level
that could even be things like joining a book club and,
you know,

529
01:13:27.300 --> 01:13:34.440  align:center  line:-1
oftentimes some folks will you know critique book
clubs
or anti-racist readings and, but there's a long history
there of,

530
01:13:34.450 --> 01:13:42.940  align:center  line:-1
you know, reading groups in the in feminist movements
in
the anti-war movements in Marxist communist movements

531
01:13:42.950 --> 01:13:48.050  align:center  line:-1
and in Black cultural nationalist movements.
But reading is always something to be done–

532
01:13:48.060 --> 01:13:54.230  align:center  line:-1
that can be done on one's own, right, and so I'm thinking
here
of the work of Michelle Alexander on mass incarceration
and

533
01:13:54.240 --> 01:14:02.100  align:center  line:-1
what she calls as the New Jim Crow is the mass
incarceration
of Black men and Latino men but also Black and Latina

534
01:14:02.110 --> 01:14:10.650  align:center  line:-1
women as well right. And so those types of books
Ibram Kendi's work on anti-racism is also important
and

535
01:14:10.660 --> 01:14:21.050  align:center  line:-1
so starting there I think is good but also believing and
having
an imagination that we can create another world, another
world is possible.

536
01:14:21.060 --> 01:14:30.340  align:center  line:-1
And oftentimes when you hear from activists or when
you know, you hear from a professor, or just students is
that some

537
01:14:30.350 --> 01:14:36.190  align:center  line:-1
of these things sound too broad and too imaginative.
But I think it's actually the opposite. People like
Robin-

538
01:14:36.200 --> 01:14:43.420  align:center  line:-1
historian Robin Kelley and others talk about, you
know,
social movements are powerful because there is a radical
imagination

539
01:14:43.430 --> 01:14:51.250  align:center  line:-1
people are thinking about that, we can defund the
police
or that we can abolish the police, or we can abolish
ICE,

540
01:14:51.260 --> 01:15:00.870  align:center  line:-1
we can abolish, you know, prisons and so or--and
abolishing
as well deportation centers and so that's kind of I think
the broader

541
01:15:00.880 --> 01:15:10.670  align:center  line:-1
ultimate end goal is thinking about, well what are we
going to do if, what happens if we defund the police and funnel that money
into social services?

542
01:15:10.680 --> 01:15:14.850  align:center  line:-1
Funnel that money into education?
And there's a broad scholarship around this, right?

543
01:15:14.860 --> 01:15:22.120  align:center  line:-1
People that are way more trained and way more informed
than I am on some of these issues but talking about going
back

544
01:15:22.130 --> 01:15:28.770  align:center  line:-1
again that the policing crisis and the policing issue
is not detached from these other societal issues.

545
01:15:28.780 --> 01:15:37.450  align:center  line:-1
So many activists and many other scholars and others
talk about well, you know if we bolster and strengthen
the

546
01:15:37.460 --> 01:15:46.730  align:center  line:-1
education system and we provide the resources for students
to,
you know, be in an after school program or to be in X
club

547
01:15:46.740 --> 01:15:54.740  align:center  line:-1
or something that might prevent or might lessen
their experiences with the police right. Other things
again

548
01:15:54.750 --> 01:16:00.430  align:center  line:-1
are as simple as taking police out of schools.
Why do we need police officers in an elementary school

549
01:16:00.440 --> 01:16:07.990  align:center  line:-1
that perhaps aren't trained to deal with five to
twelve-year-olds?
Or perhaps trained to deal with middle schoolers or high
schoolers,

550
01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:18.300  align:center  line:-1
because again that creates a longer kind of bad
relationship
between policing and you know communities of color or

551
01:16:18.310 --> 01:16:26.340  align:center  line:-1
these kind of second-class... deemed what are groups
that are second-class citizens in a lot of ways but social
services

552
01:16:26.350 --> 01:16:37.490  align:center  line:-1
as well as just economic opportunity.
And so the revitalization of certain areas-- not
gentrification, per se,

553
01:16:37.500 --> 01:16:45.290  align:center  line:-1
but more so revitalization for the communities to
remain
Black or Brown or to remain X-group of people,

554
01:16:45.300 --> 01:16:49.640  align:center  line:-1
I think would be kind of one way that some
folks are talking about this. But also prisons.

555
01:16:49.650 --> 01:16:56.110  align:center  line:-1
The prison system and mass incarceration
thinking right now of covid is, you know, covid is
hitting

556
01:16:56.120 --> 01:17:02.160  align:center  line:-1
and striking these, these jails and
these prisons with massive numbers.

557
01:17:02.170 --> 01:17:09.430  align:center  line:-1
There's massive deaths in New York and in other locations
where
these folks are being treated as you know they're out of
society,

558
01:17:09.440 --> 01:17:15.740  align:center  line:-1
they're, you know, kind of out of sight out of mind.
But some of the most pertinent issues are related to
the

559
01:17:15.750 --> 01:17:25.500  align:center  line:-1
prison rights movement. We need to kind of also you
know
funnel money into these programs that allow for these
individuals,

560
01:17:25.510 --> 01:17:32.060  align:center  line:-1
these incarcerated individuals to come out and rejoin
society seamlessly and here I'm thinking of again you
know

561
01:17:32.070 --> 01:17:39.640  align:center  line:-1
there's fees that have to be paid right to post your
bail
or when you come out of jail you pay,

562
01:17:39.650 --> 01:17:45.800  align:center  line:-1
I forget what it's exactly called, but you pay a fee when
you, you know,
you owe the government money for the time you spend in
jail, essentially.

563
01:17:45.810 --> 01:17:52.850  align:center  line:-1
And so you're already coming out in debt many times,
right?
You are coming out and your job opportunities are
limited

564
01:17:52.860 --> 01:18:00.880  align:center  line:-1
and so what happens is you know you do have this cycle
of people leaving and re-entering prison but it's because
the system

565
01:18:00.890 --> 01:18:06.620  align:center  line:-1
is set up that way right to kind of get these folks.
And this is going back to the war on drugs and things

566
01:18:06.630 --> 01:18:14.410  align:center  line:-1
as minor offenses as carrying you know marijuana.
And now that states are legalizing marijuana you know that
we

567
01:18:14.420 --> 01:18:23.710  align:center  line:-1
need to retroactively re-look at cases that are open
about Black men or Black folk or Latin- Latinx folk as
well that you know,

568
01:18:23.720 --> 01:18:30.670  align:center  line:-1
went to jail for weed or for marijuana and what we
need to kind of make sure that they are you know put out
of prison

569
01:18:30.680 --> 01:18:37.620  align:center  line:-1
for what businesses are now rising out of and
are making thousands--millions of dollars off of.

570
01:18:37.630 --> 01:18:44.690  align:center  line:-1
So there needs to be a reconsideration of laws and
certain laws and cert-- and reforming definitely kind

571
01:18:44.700 --> 01:18:54.600  align:center  line:-1
of some of these things and-- yeah. So there's
definitely–
and then ICE and abolishing these mass detention
centers—

572
01:18:54.610 --> 01:19:00.470  align:center  line:-1
and these are detention centers that are that date
back
further than you know the second George Bush.

573
01:19:00.480 --> 01:19:07.530  align:center  line:-1
But these detention centers were used by people such
as
Barack Obama who some activists were referring to as
the

574
01:19:07.540 --> 01:19:15.450  align:center  line:-1
Deporter In Chief before President Trump and
President Trump's programs of, you know, separating
children.

575
01:19:15.460 --> 01:19:23.000  align:center  line:-1
There's still I believe it's, the last I checked it was
about 500
kids are still separated from their parents and their
parents

576
01:19:23.010 --> 01:19:28.590  align:center  line:-1
might have already been deported back to whatever
Latin American nation they they were
they were coming from, right?

577
01:19:28.600 --> 01:19:36.700  align:center  line:-1
So these types of things-- and it all goes back to the
humanity aspect right, the human rights component that
we

578
01:19:36.710 --> 01:19:42.610  align:center  line:-1
need to treat each other as human beings that
are you know equal and are equal citizens.

579
01:19:42.620 --> 01:19:50.370  align:center  line:-1
And you know I don't know how long it'll take us to get
there
but there's definitely a lot of work and but I think
there's a lot of imagination

580
01:19:50.380 --> 01:19:55.880  align:center  line:-1
that can be placed in and one of the things I think is
important from social movement history is that the
youth

581
01:19:55.890 --> 01:20:03.240  align:center  line:-1
are ultimately those that take the reins right.
So we have a lot of youth right now that are trying
to–

582
01:20:03.250 --> 01:20:08.840  align:center  line:-1
thinking of the Parkland shooting in Florida,
there's a lot of youth that are trying to get, again
police

583
01:20:08.850 --> 01:20:14.820  align:center  line:-1
out of their prisons---out of their schools I should
say.
And also some schools are being treated as prisons.

584
01:20:14.830 --> 01:20:22.510  align:center  line:-1
Some schools you have to you know, run your backpack
through a metal detector and so you know it can start

585
01:20:22.520 --> 01:20:27.920  align:center  line:-1
with something as little as one elementary school
and expand into something that's nationwide.

586
01:20:27.930 --> 01:20:34.750  align:center  line:-1
But one thing I like to tell students is that we don't
have to you
don't have to chew off everything at once.

587
01:20:34.760 --> 01:20:41.180  align:center  line:-1
You can kind of take bites of you know,
creating social change based on your own personal local
level

588
01:20:41.190 --> 01:20:49.000  align:center  line:-1
so that could mean again attending a rally or it could
mean even just attending a talk by an activist and,

589
01:20:49.010 --> 01:20:57.940  align:center  line:-1
money goes a long way. Activists are always...
and organizations are run on money. And so there's a lot
we can do

590
01:20:57.950 --> 01:21:03.780  align:center  line:-1
even from our even, from our you know
seats in our homes on Facebook there's like--- on
Twitter.

591
01:21:03.790 --> 01:21:08.950  align:center  line:-1
But there- there's ultimately I think there
needs to be a re-education of individuals.

592
01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:15.240  align:center  line:-1
We all need to re-educate ourselves and
we need to kind of think about Black liberation and
the

593
01:21:15.250 --> 01:21:25.030  align:center  line:-1
Black freedom struggle throughout history.  And Black
individuals
have struggled the most amongst us right, thinking of the
slave trade

594
01:21:25.040 --> 01:21:31.950  align:center  line:-1
and thinking of the way that they've been treated by
society is that many of them are calling for you know

595
01:21:31.960 --> 01:21:40.640  align:center  line:-1
they're still calling for reparations. They're still
calling for land,
they're still calling for the opportunity to control their
own

596
01:21:40.650 --> 01:21:46.900  align:center  line:-1
communities and to not have to deal with, you know
racist policing agencies or the racial capitalist
state.

597
01:21:46.910 --> 01:21:56.170  align:center  line:-1
So this notion of reparations I think is important and
many places are starting to do this. I'm thinking here of
universities

598
01:21:56.180 --> 01:22:04.360  align:center  line:-1
such as like Georgetown and others that are recognizing
that slaves
built these schools, and so they're trying to have legacy
admissions,

599
01:22:04.370 --> 01:22:11.320  align:center  line:-1
making sure that folks that are descendants of slaves
have
a right to the university that might not be open to
them.

600
01:22:11.330 --> 01:22:17.020  align:center  line:-1
But this needs to be expanded, right. This is something
that–
it's a start but we got to keep kind of---and there could
be more

601
01:22:17.030 --> 01:22:24.730  align:center  line:-1
that can be done and that's I think the goal is that we
need
to recognize that the US does have a racial capitalist
system

602
01:22:24.740 --> 01:22:31.430  align:center  line:-1
and so we need to figure out how these things
are intertwined and also how they impact the everyday
life.

603
01:22:33.160 --> 01:22:45.220  align:center  line:-1
Keith: The US owns a certain amount of land in places
where...did...do Black people in Latin America own a lot
of property?

604
01:22:45.230 --> 01:22:55.350  align:center  line:-1
Are they allowed to own? Did they get any sort of land or
was it kind of like the…like something that just
came into my head that I've been studying

605
01:22:55.360 --> 01:23:00.520  align:center  line:-1
was the Morrill Acts from 1865 and 1890 that kind of
granted...

606
01:23:00.530 --> 01:23:01.830  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: This is a land grant?

607
01:23:01.840 --> 01:23:06.460  align:center  line:-1
Keith: Yeah, that's the land grant. 
So, like, that's kind of how HBCUs started.

608
01:23:06.470 --> 01:23:20.290  align:center  line:-1
Anything like that? Like land given to help…land given
to
Black folks after slavery to either help them establish
themselves?

609
01:23:20.300 --> 01:23:26.560  align:center  line:-1
Or is land like a White person thing in Latin America?

610
01:23:26.570 --> 01:23:33.250  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: So I'm not entirely sure on like
formal,
you know, legislation or formal acts throughout the
Americas.

611
01:23:33.260 --> 01:23:41.350  align:center  line:-1
So thinking here it's definitely like a case-by-case study
right.
But I definitely know of examples of what are known as

612
01:23:41.360 --> 01:23:50.300  align:center  line:-1
maroon communities in places like Brazil where it was
these
communities of runaway slaves that ultimately created
their own, you know…

613
01:23:50.310 --> 01:23:59.000  align:center  line:-1
took a hold of land then and held that land with
force.
And so when people tried to come and you know whether they
tried

614
01:23:59.010 --> 01:24:08.100  align:center  line:-1
to you know settle this land that was owned by
where…
that was occupied by Black Brazilians or
Afro-Brazilians

615
01:24:08.110 --> 01:24:14.440  align:center  line:-1
is that they were met with force, right. So these
maroon communities were established
throughout parts of Latin America.

616
01:24:14.450 --> 01:24:23.350  align:center  line:-1
So I know by force and by you know sheer kind of
tenacity
these communities have thrived and they still exist and
also in

617
01:24:23.360 --> 01:24:32.820  align:center  line:-1
Mexico on along the what's known as...
what's the coast...I'm
forgetting the name of it... 


618
01:24:32.830 --> 01:24:35.280  align:center  line:-1
Keith: I just know the Baja coast...

619
01:24:35.290 --> 01:24:40.550  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, well so in Mexico
there along the coast there is these examples of these

620
01:24:40.560 --> 01:24:50.340  align:center  line:-1
Black Indigenous communities that have ties to both
Indigenous…Indigeneity and the
slave trade, and the examples

621
01:24:50.350 --> 01:24:56.010  align:center  line:-1
I know of there is that they kind of again there are
these
communities that have existed for a long period of time
that

622
01:24:56.020 --> 01:25:00.640  align:center  line:-1
have not been disrupted by, you know those in
charge or those that want land.

623
01:25:00.650 --> 01:25:07.110  align:center  line:-1
So those are kind of the examples I'm aware of.
There could be that there is you know there's also

624
01:25:07.120 --> 01:25:13.830  align:center  line:-1
I'm thinking of Afro-Hondurans who are along the coast
there as well and and the coast is important, right
because

625
01:25:13.840 --> 01:25:23.200  align:center  line:-1
the coast oftentimes... one it's where African
slaves would arrive. But two it the coast climate is
locations

626
01:25:23.210 --> 01:25:30.410  align:center  line:-1
that that commodities thrive better in there's
different
types of commodities throughout the Americas right,

627
01:25:30.420 --> 01:25:38.270  align:center  line:-1
but bananas and cotton, sugar and
cochineal,
which is the use for you know pigment dyes.

628
01:25:38.280 --> 01:25:46.140  align:center  line:-1
Scholars have written about this is you know all of these
things
are kind of being created by either African and
sometimes

629
01:25:46.150 --> 01:25:53.570  align:center  line:-1
even by Indigenous individuals and that kind of
creates
these communities around and so I'm not really sure...

630
01:25:55.230 --> 01:25:58.530  align:center  line:-1
Keith: ...how policing in Latin America first began?

631
01:25:58.540 --> 01:26:05.070  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, so here again is that you
have that kind of colonial and imperial relationship

632
01:26:05.080 --> 01:26:12.030  align:center  line:-1
and in the case of the Americas we think of, you know
“Columbus sails the ocean blue in 1492.”

633
01:26:12.040 --> 01:26:19.350  align:center  line:-1
After Columbus's arrival in... wherever he landed,
you have the arrival of other conquistadors.

634
01:26:19.360 --> 01:26:26.570  align:center  line:-1
You have people such as Hernan Cortes in Mexico,
and others throughout the Americas from the Spanish
empire,

635
01:26:26.580 --> 01:26:37.470  align:center  line:-1
Portugal, and from England as well who all become aware
of,
you know the climate and the regions throughout the
Americas

636
01:26:37.480 --> 01:26:44.120  align:center  line:-1
that could you know be good colonial
outposts for creating wealth and for creating goods.

637
01:26:44.130 --> 01:26:54.570  align:center  line:-1
Sugar, again sugar is now being consumed in England
by everybody with their tea because it's being so mass
produced

638
01:26:54.580 --> 01:27:02.110  align:center  line:-1
that the everyday commoner can afford sugar now the
same
way that the royal elite could. And it creates this kind
of this demand,

639
01:27:02.120 --> 01:27:12.510  align:center  line:-1
right and one way to meet this demand was first to use
Indigenous labor. Indigenous labor is used in Mexican
silver mines,

640
01:27:12.520 --> 01:27:19.290  align:center  line:-1
it's used in you know locations throughout the
Americas.
But then the slave trade starts right, you have the
transatlantic

641
01:27:19.300 --> 01:27:28.400  align:center  line:-1
slave trade where slaves are coming to the US as well
as
Latin America and the Caribbean. Goods from... that are
produced

642
01:27:28.410 --> 01:27:35.430  align:center  line:-1
by these slaves in these areas are now going to the
metro…
what's known as the metropole which is you know
wherever

643
01:27:35.440 --> 01:27:40.050  align:center  line:-1
the the high court or the clone…
or the the whoever's in charge is located.

644
01:27:40.060 --> 01:27:48.080  align:center  line:-1
And again... so those goods are going to Portugal
and others and then the machinery and all the stuff

645
01:27:48.090 --> 01:27:55.950  align:center  line:-1
all the goods that need to be used to mine silver to
mine
or to create the goods that are being processed is
coming

646
01:27:55.960 --> 01:28:05.120  align:center  line:-1
from parts of Northern Europe, so it kind of forms this
triangle.
But what happens is that slaves use whatever resistance
techniques

647
01:28:05.130 --> 01:28:15.210  align:center  line:-1
they can in the Americas and in the US. This can mean
breaking
tools, this can mean faking sick as ways of you know,
slowing down

648
01:28:15.220 --> 01:28:23.890  align:center  line:-1
the workday, slowing down how much can be produced in the
day.
And then there's the ultimate thing right is running
away.

649
01:28:23.900 --> 01:28:31.000  align:center  line:-1
And so you have examples of runaway slaves throughout
the Americas and the US, of people running away.

650
01:28:31.010 --> 01:28:37.520  align:center  line:-1
And so some of the first types of policing that hap…
that's happening is these runaway slave patrols or

651
01:28:37.530 --> 01:28:45.670  align:center  line:-1
these patrols that are created to recapture, these human
beings,
or what would have been known then as people's property
right?

652
01:28:45.680 --> 01:28:54.160  align:center  line:-1
An individual that was owned by someone else.
And so this goes back to that relationship of resistance
and policing.

653
01:28:54.170 --> 01:29:01.420  align:center  line:-1
And so folks used whatever... whatever they could
and people such as Marcus Rediker write about…

654
01:29:01.430 --> 01:29:08.580  align:center  line:-1
Marcus Rediker in the Pittsburgh history department writes
about,
you know, runaway slaves and he's now writing a book about
slaves

655
01:29:08.590 --> 01:29:19.190  align:center  line:-1
that run way through waterways. But yeah, so these first
kind of
policing agencies created by England and Barbados the
United States

656
01:29:19.200 --> 01:29:28.350  align:center  line:-1
creates them in Virginia...are created to recapture
slaves
and historians have gone through newspapers and have
gone

657
01:29:28.360 --> 01:29:37.870  align:center  line:-1
through personal documents where you know flyers are
created
or ads are printed in newspapers that are, you know
calling

658
01:29:37.880 --> 01:29:44.670  align:center  line:-1
for the recapture of someone's slave. And so you have
both
slave patrols that are commissioned and, you know, are
paid

659
01:29:44.680 --> 01:29:51.720  align:center  line:-1
by whatever entity is creating them,
but you also have vigilantes who also are going in
on…

660
01:29:51.730 --> 01:29:57.660  align:center  line:-1
you know, of course I want to capture a slave and
return
them because that means you know, I'm going to get X
amount

661
01:29:57.670 --> 01:30:07.080  align:center  line:-1
of money for returning this person. And it all goes back
again
to this dehumanization and this notion that these people
were property

662
01:30:07.090 --> 01:30:17.110  align:center  line:-1
and the police again are created in many times to protect
property.
And so this is an example of that, is these slave patrols
were protecting

663
01:30:17.120 --> 01:30:21.690  align:center  line:-1
people's property...and at this time of people's
property was an actual human being.

664
01:30:21.700 --> 01:30:29.620  align:center  line:-1
This trend... this changes throughout the center
throughout
the years to include again just physical property as well
as

665
01:30:29.630 --> 01:30:40.040  align:center  line:-1
trying to control labor and labor control and…
So police back in the 1500s, and 1600s, 1700s, 1800s,

666
01:30:40.050 --> 01:30:49.280  align:center  line:-1
are being used to keep in place the slave system so to
keep that
order whereas now we're talking more about keeping social
order

667
01:30:49.290 --> 01:30:57.110  align:center  line:-1
and keeping capitalist order... essentially keeping labor
at bay
or labor radicals at bay, or just radicals in general at
bay right.

668
01:30:57.120 --> 01:31:07.580  align:center  line:-1
And yeah, so this is kind of a little bit how that how
we've seen
it develop is from since the 1500s you know policing has
been,

669
01:31:07.590 --> 01:31:17.980  align:center  line:-1
you know, looking for Black bodies or trying to control
Black bodies, and
so this is why Black bodies are deemed a threat in the
wrong spaces today.

670
01:31:19.920 --> 01:31:24.450  align:center  line:-1
Keith: What would... what would it take to not have these
issues…
I'm trying to just try to think of the right way to phrase
the question…

671
01:31:24.460 --> 01:31:32.130  align:center  line:-1
...because it's such an interesting
comparison between the shift from property to social
order...

672
01:31:32.140 --> 01:31:39.000  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah and here I guess one thing to
consider is the reconstruction era that first

673
01:31:39.010 --> 01:31:49.480  align:center  line:-1
kind of post civil rights... that post slavery moment
towards the end
of the 1800s into the 1900s is, you know, that back to
segregation.

674
01:31:49.490 --> 01:31:58.250  align:center  line:-1
And after slavery ends the question becomes, like,
well
where do these African slave... these formerly you
know…

675
01:31:58.260 --> 01:32:05.890  align:center  line:-1
these formerly Africans... these former slaves that are
Black…
where do they, where do they fit in the social order?

676
01:32:05.900 --> 01:32:13.320  align:center  line:-1
Where do they fit in in society? Because now
they're…
some of them become politicians, some of them you know go
to

677
01:32:13.330 --> 01:32:19.740  align:center  line:-1
Harvard and become educated. You have people such as
W.E.B. Du Bois who you know starts becoming an
advocate

678
01:32:19.750 --> 01:32:26.160  align:center  line:-1
and starts writing about the reconstruction period.
But there is that kind of middle point right where

679
01:32:26.170 --> 01:32:36.040  align:center  line:-1
you do have runaway slaves in northern states such
as you know Philadelphia... or Pennsylvania and New
York

680
01:32:36.050 --> 01:32:43.810  align:center  line:-1
but it still becomes a question of, like, well where did
they
fit where what... and here in Pittsburgh I'm thinking of
what is...

681
01:32:43.820 --> 01:32:50.700  align:center  line:-1
what was it the Hill District? And, you know,
particular
kind of enclaves and this is also kind of a little bit
true

682
01:32:50.710 --> 01:32:58.990  align:center  line:-1
in portions of Latin America as well I think of
favelas in…
in Brazil but also... so this notion that these

683
01:32:59.000 --> 01:33:03.770  align:center  line:-1
places need to be policed more because
more crime is happening here.

684
01:33:03.780 --> 01:33:11.640  align:center  line:-1
And this all kind of ties into industrialization,
these new waves of labor, these new pools of labor

685
01:33:11.650 --> 01:33:20.280  align:center  line:-1
and more people coming into the cities right.
So you have to have this kind of control of the city.

686
01:33:20.290 --> 01:33:25.370  align:center  line:-1
And how do you have control of the city?
As you use the police to kind of be able to kind of
segment

687
01:33:25.380 --> 01:33:29.130  align:center  line:-1
off like where people belong where people don't
belong.

688
01:33:29.140 --> 01:33:38.530  align:center  line:-1
But trying to keep that order into place and…
yeah and so... I'm trying... I there's a big chunk

689
01:33:38.540 --> 01:33:43.390  align:center  line:-1
I guess I'm trying to think about that how that kind of
develops...

690
01:33:44.200 --> 01:33:49.150  align:center  line:-1
Keith: ...is that a neighborhood? Is that a state like
what is that because Keisha Khan-Perry talked about
favelas...

691
01:33:49.160 --> 01:33:56.880  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, so
favelas are essentially
kind
of these in some cases it's low-income housing or it's
these kind of…

692
01:33:56.890 --> 01:34:03.460  align:center  line:-1
I don't want to say caddy... not caddyshacks,
but these, essentially these homes that prop up by

693
01:34:03.470 --> 01:34:10.220  align:center  line:-1
people at almost out of nowhere and sometimes
this is in big cities like Rio... Rio de Janeiro has a few
favelas.

694
01:34:10.230 --> 01:34:16.280  align:center  line:-1
Favelas also exist in other
places like in Santiago, Chile
and sometimes these are just kind of commun…

695
01:34:16.290 --> 01:34:25.500  align:center  line:-1
these are folks that take into their own what some
people call like insurgent citizenship or the claim to
citizenship

696
01:34:25.510 --> 01:34:30.850  align:center  line:-1
rights that might not have been there before.
And so some folks create their own homes and places

697
01:34:30.860 --> 01:34:36.970  align:center  line:-1
that many other people probably wouldn't want to live.
But people such as Edward Murphy writes about how,

698
01:34:36.980 --> 01:34:46.620  align:center  line:-1
you know, folks in Chile fought to get water running to
their
favelas or fought to get
electricity into their, their home…

699
01:34:46.630 --> 01:34:55.350  align:center  line:-1
their newly established homes. And so
favelas, if you Google
kind of
an image it's a lot of rows of housing in major cities and
so

700
01:34:55.360 --> 01:35:03.680  align:center  line:-1
these would kind of probably correlate to low-income
housing or
public housing here in the United States. So places in New
York places

701
01:35:03.690 --> 01:35:11.580  align:center  line:-1
you know all over LA, New York, Detroit, but again these
places…
this is where that racial capitalism comes back in,
right?

702
01:35:11.590 --> 01:35:20.510  align:center  line:-1
This... sometimes these are going to be groups of
people
that are racially deemed and are treated as inferior,
right based on race.

703
01:35:20.520 --> 01:35:31.770  align:center  line:-1
So African Americans and others, Latinos also live in
public housing as well but also then that these are kind of places where
crime is happening more.

704
01:35:31.780 --> 01:35:40.430  align:center  line:-1
And, so many scholars have written about again back in the
case of
Puerto Rico and as well as just thinking of here in the US
and others

705
01:35:40.440 --> 01:35:49.850  align:center  line:-1
of these low-income housing units is that you do have some
forms of
crime going on, but it's similar crime that's going on in
other locations as well.

706
01:35:49.860 --> 01:35:56.460  align:center  line:-1
But the difference is that these places already
being more heavily policed because of the fear of
these

707
01:35:56.470 --> 01:36:05.370  align:center  line:-1
racialized groups right, or these fears of low-income
individuals.
And so that marriage between race and capitalism.

708
01:36:05.380 --> 01:36:12.580  align:center  line:-1
So yeah... that's kind of more or less
general kind of... I'm sure there's better definition
but…

709
01:36:13.000 --> 01:36:16.850  align:center  line:-1
Keith: No, no. That's great... and actually I was
going to ask you if you don't mind if you because I think
you…

710
01:36:16.860 --> 01:36:22.320  align:center  line:-1
the first sentence or so when you were talking
about what it is, I think you stumbled a little bit.

711
01:36:22.330 --> 01:36:30.120  align:center  line:-1
Do you mind just telling me, like the definition of a
favela or what like, from your
point of view what is it?

712
01:36:30.130 --> 01:36:38.200  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, so
favelas are a type of
house…
makeshift housing I should say that does is sometimes

713
01:36:38.210 --> 01:36:46.900  align:center  line:-1
propped up by different racial groups or low-income
individuals in cities like Rio de Janeiro or like
Santiago, Chile

714
01:36:46.910 --> 01:36:55.670  align:center  line:-1
that are places where others might not want to actually
live.
And so these places get racialized and folks do know
that

715
01:36:55.680 --> 01:37:01.490  align:center  line:-1
these places you know X-race lives there or X type of
person lives there so I'm not going to go there.

716
01:37:01.500 --> 01:37:09.760  align:center  line:-1
But the police then also know like X type of people live
there. So there might
be this type of crime that we can come in and kind of
police right.

717
01:37:09.770 --> 01:37:20.010  align:center  line:-1
And so Marisol Lebron talks about this stuff as
punitive
governance in Puerto Rico and how you know individuals

718
01:37:20.020 --> 01:37:26.320  align:center  line:-1
were being policed based on where they lived and
sometimes this correlated to Reggaeton hip-hop artists
which is a…

719
01:37:26.330 --> 01:37:32.320  align:center  line:-1
Reggaeton is a type of Spanish music but these
individuals
are making the music out of their homes and their
homes

720
01:37:32.330 --> 01:37:41.330  align:center  line:-1
were often types of low-income housing or public
housing.
And so this is different from you know a White-gated
community

721
01:37:41.340 --> 01:37:49.370  align:center  line:-1
where certain suburban communities and also inner
cities communities that have white picket fences or white
fences

722
01:37:49.380 --> 01:37:57.290  align:center  line:-1
or are gated off are trying to prevent individuals from
coming in right.
And the individuals they're trying to prevent from coming
in are

723
01:37:57.300 --> 01:38:05.890  align:center  line:-1
oftentimes these racialized low-income type of
individuals.
And here I'm thinking of St Louis, Missouri…

724
01:38:05.900 --> 01:38:12.550  align:center  line:-1
there's these famous images right of these two
individuals
with their guns out in front of their mansion that are
afraid of these

725
01:38:12.560 --> 01:38:19.850  align:center  line:-1
Black Lives Matters protesters that are walking by and
so
the question there was, you know, were they peacefully
protesting

726
01:38:19.860 --> 01:38:24.510  align:center  line:-1
what the debate is there but that's a whole that's a whole
other conversation...

727
01:38:24.520 --> 01:38:29.190  align:center  line:-1
Keith: I hesitate asking it because I don't
intend on interviewing a police officer...

728
01:38:29.200 --> 01:38:29.980  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah...

729
01:38:29.990 --> 01:38:35.620  align:center  line:-1
Keith: ...for this, and... but you know we
talked about we've talked a little bit about the
amount

730
01:38:35.630 --> 01:38:44.600  align:center  line:-1
of like what, like, shooting somebody 16 times or a kid
14
times or all of this like what are you afraid of? You know
we

731
01:38:44.610 --> 01:38:53.200  align:center  line:-1
both we share family members that are cops and
like, like what does... what pushes somebody to do that
like,

732
01:38:53.210 --> 01:39:06.360  align:center  line:-1
what's going through somebody's head... and pure
speculation of course, when you feel like you have to shoot somebody in the
back 14 times to be safe?

733
01:39:08.250 --> 01:39:14.700  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, that's one thing
that I think about is that I think back on on this
notion

734
01:39:14.710 --> 01:39:22.520  align:center  line:-1
that the police have a legal monopoly on violence,
right.
They can ultimately shoot a gun and perhaps

735
01:39:22.530 --> 01:39:29.830  align:center  line:-1
not even be charged, right? But if somebody else,
an everyday citizen were to shoot someone there's major
repercussions right.

736
01:39:29.840 --> 01:39:39.180  align:center  line:-1
So I think in this long history of policing what
we've seen is that many individuals get off…

737
01:39:39.190 --> 01:39:43.190  align:center  line:-1
get off without being charged with the
crime because they are police officers.

738
01:39:43.200 --> 01:39:48.990  align:center  line:-1
So I think for some perhaps for some police officers
there's this idea that you know they can't be
charged…

739
01:39:49.000 --> 01:39:55.350  align:center  line:-1
they're immune, they have immunity or they have…
and so it really is hard to say from an outsider's
perspective you know,

740
01:39:55.360 --> 01:40:03.580  align:center  line:-1
if X person was reaching for their, you know,
their license or their reaching for their cell phone or
they're

741
01:40:03.590 --> 01:40:09.720  align:center  line:-1
reaching for something in their pockets…
what it is in that split second...what's running

742
01:40:09.730 --> 01:40:16.460  align:center  line:-1
through a police officer's mind is is hard.
But I think one thing that we can talk about is the police
records

743
01:40:16.470 --> 01:40:22.920  align:center  line:-1
that are left behind and that's something I didn't really
talk
about is that the archive when it comes to doing

744
01:40:22.930 --> 01:40:31.650  align:center  line:-1
histories about the police is very limited.
Police officers much like you and I we have our own
positionality,

745
01:40:31.660 --> 01:40:38.480  align:center  line:-1
we have our own thoughts and views, and I think
it's not being a police officer... when you put on your
uniform,

746
01:40:38.490 --> 01:40:46.740  align:center  line:-1
you're not detaching yourself from your own views right,
your own…
whether it's your own nationalistic views, whether it's
your

747
01:40:46.750 --> 01:40:53.220  align:center  line:-1
own you know classist views, your own gender,
your own views on gender, and your own views on

748
01:40:53.230 --> 01:40:58.860  align:center  line:-1
sexuality, that doesn't leave you when you put on
your, you know, your bulletproof vest and your

749
01:40:58.870 --> 01:41:03.450  align:center  line:-1
gun and your holster the same way that,
you know, if you're playing sports...the sports metaphor
is

750
01:41:03.460 --> 01:41:07.690  align:center  line:-1
like, you know, you leave everything else you know
outside of the white lines meaning you leave
everything

751
01:41:07.700 --> 01:41:14.900  align:center  line:-1
else before you get on the basketball court or the
baseball field.
I don't...I don't think there's that kind of divide in
policing.

752
01:41:14.910 --> 01:41:24.010  align:center  line:-1
You carry your own positionality your own kind of,
you know, the way you were raised, the way you were... the
way your…

753
01:41:24.020 --> 01:41:30.930  align:center  line:-1
you view the world, right? And so that then goes
into your police positionality as well.

754
01:41:30.940 --> 01:41:38.120  align:center  line:-1
So if you already might have that inclination of you
know,
well Black people are more susceptible to crime or to
drugs

755
01:41:38.130 --> 01:41:43.930  align:center  line:-1
you're probably going to start, you know, looking for
Black people to try to kind of confirm your own bias,

756
01:41:43.940 --> 01:41:53.070  align:center  line:-1
to try to kind of you know acknowledge that you…
to try to prove yourself right in some ways and so as
far

757
01:41:53.080 --> 01:41:59.840  align:center  line:-1
as the pulling the trigger part... that's kind of that's
harder.
But as an outsider's perspective and what activists are
saying is you know...

758
01:41:59.850 --> 01:42:06.070  align:center  line:-1
Dr. Eddie Bonilla: Yeah, so for example the
Black Lives Matter movement is started and sustained

759
01:42:06.080 --> 01:42:13.730  align:center  line:-1
by Black women who are leading or leading the charge.
But the FBI in 2017 came out and said you know this

760
01:42:13.740 --> 01:42:19.410  align:center  line:-1
group is a Black identity extremist organization
and there's this kind of long history.

761
01:42:19.420 --> 01:42:26.110  align:center  line:-1
There's a Black feminist tradition dating
you know throughout the 1900s thinking here of
individuals

762
01:42:26.120 --> 01:42:35.220  align:center  line:-1
such as Fannie Lou Hamer, of Claudia Jones,
of others who were tying the battle against global White
supremacy

763
01:42:35.230 --> 01:42:46.260  align:center  line:-1
to their own individual experiences, right or experiences
with police.
And the FBI was not only following and tracking Black men
and women

764
01:42:46.270 --> 01:42:52.870  align:center  line:-1
Black men but also Black women as well.
Fannie Lou Hamer, Ashley Farmer has written about how

765
01:42:52.880 --> 01:43:00.670  align:center  line:-1
Queen Mother Audley Moore who is a major figure in the
civil rights and Black power movements but even before

766
01:43:00.680 --> 01:43:06.870  align:center  line:-1
the civil rights movements, she's a particular individual
in the
Black freedom struggle that people need to learn about

767
01:43:06.880 --> 01:43:13.310  align:center  line:-1
who didn't want to you know, collaborate with
the FBI, who was asking her for help.

768
01:43:13.320 --> 01:43:24.040  align:center  line:-1
And so Claudia Jones, a Black Trinidadian communist
is eventually deported and so deportation is a tool that
is

769
01:43:24.050 --> 01:43:30.300  align:center  line:-1
also used as a form of policing right? She was charged
for being a communist but she was also an immigrant,

770
01:43:30.310 --> 01:43:38.710  align:center  line:-1
a Black immigrant and she was deported to…
she ends up in London, right? And so there's a global

771
01:43:38.720 --> 01:43:46.730  align:center  line:-1
movement going on around Black freedom and
so this is related to Keisha Blaine who is in the history
department

772
01:43:46.740 --> 01:43:54.620  align:center  line:-1
here at the University of Pittsburgh. She writes…
she's currently writing about these kind of Asian Afro
relationships.

773
01:43:54.630 --> 01:44:04.640  align:center  line:-1
W.E.B. Du Bois is looking towards China or looking
towards
Japan as kind of a model perhaps for what can happen in
the US

774
01:44:04.650 --> 01:44:11.590  align:center  line:-1
as far as race goes. But other individuals as well are
looking at these coalitions and trying to recognize,

775
01:44:11.600 --> 01:44:17.270  align:center  line:-1
you know, what is similar that's going on in these
communities is you know there's US imperialism,

776
01:44:17.280 --> 01:44:22.960  align:center  line:-1
there's White supremacy as well as when it comes
to Black and Brown relationships is, there's this

777
01:44:22.970 --> 01:44:31.880  align:center  line:-1
common relationship to policing right. They have these
common experiences of being targeted by police.

778
01:44:31.890 --> 01:44:41.400  align:center  line:-1
And so this has kind of fomented some cross-racial
coalitions
or cross-ethnic coalitions as well and there's many
historians

779
01:44:41.410 --> 01:44:45.920  align:center  line:-1
that are up and coming that are writing about this
stuff
such as Katherine Bynum who's now at Arizona State

780
01:44:45.930 --> 01:44:53.970  align:center  line:-1
and her dissertation is looking at Black and Brown
activists
in Dallas that are responding to police brutality.

781
01:44:53.980 --> 01:45:03.500  align:center  line:-1
So police brutality... and as we talked about you know,
it…
it's one thing that can spark these new relationships
between activists.

782
01:45:03.510 --> 01:45:10.230  align:center  line:-1
And Jennifer Jones in the webinar talked about you
know,
how there's an abolish the police movement but there's

783
01:45:10.240 --> 01:45:18.600  align:center  line:-1
also an abolish ICE movement and how these two are
overlapping
in a lot of ways particularly in the south around you know
immigrant…

784
01:45:18.610 --> 01:45:25.760  align:center  line:-1
immigration and Black Lives Matter right.
So there's that kind of opportunity… there's that
there's

785
01:45:25.770 --> 01:45:33.030  align:center  line:-1
that opening for Black and Brown activists and people
to
kind of create these coalitions to support one another
against

786
01:45:33.040 --> 01:45:41.100  align:center  line:-1
police brutality but also against all these other
things of economic inequality and yea, racism etc.
Primary tabs

The Origins of Policing and Civil Rights Movements
