WEBVTT
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Gao Minglu: OK, today’s topic of discussion is Rent
Collection Courtyard.
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Rent Collection Courtyard is an extremely important
sculpture, a clay sculpture work.
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It is a series of sculptures created in 1965 by a group of
artists and students from Sichuan Fine Arts Institute.
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This work strongly represents 20th century Chinese art
history and even political history.
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It reflects the Mao era, that is, it uses a type of model
image to reflect class conflict before and during the Cultural Revolution,
from oppression, to exploitation, and finally to revolt, this kind of
actual revolutionary history.
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Today we’ll talk about how this work was made, how it
appeared, the process of its creation, and its contemporary influence.
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Today we have two honored guests; both are professors from
Sichuan Fine Arts Institute in Chongqing.
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One is Mr. Li Zhanyang. He is a sculptor, a very important
sculptor in Chinese contemporary art.
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Our other guest is Zha Hongmei, an art historian from
Sichuan Fine Arts Institute’s Department of Art History.
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Today, we’ve asked them to join in the discussion, since
they have both studied Rent Collection Courtyard.
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Teacher Zha Hongmei [is very familiar with] Sichuan Fine
Arts Institute’s history from the 1940s up until today, and can sort out
this history.
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Mr. Li Zhanyang has himself created a sculpture work
called “Rent” – Rent Collection Courtyard [2006], which used Rent
Collection Courtyard as source material, but appropriated and changed it to
become a piece of contemporary art.
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So, today we’re very happy to have these two guests
participating in our discussion.
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Next, I’d like to invite Teacher Li to talk a little
about the background of the creation of Rent Collection Courtyard, the
group who created it, and some interesting concrete historical facts about
it.
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That will help us understand why Rent Collection Courtyard
came into being. So, please…
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Li Zhanyang: Hello everyone. I am Li Zhanyang, an
instructor from Sichuan Fine Arts Institute.
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Professor Gao just introduced [Rent Collection Courtyard].
This work could only have been created during that era.
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That era was the Mao era, which took class struggle as its
primary rhythm.
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Since China was nationalistic all along, if the government
wanted to do something, that amounted to huge support. At the time, class
struggle was advocated.
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Then, a student from Sichuan Art Institute was sent to the
Liu Wencai feudal manor in Dayi County, Sichuan, to accept an
assignment.
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His name was Li Qishen. He created an artwork that was
concerned with how landlords exploited peasants.
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His work wasn’t terribly deep; after doing the
sculpture, [the figures] were dressed in clothing.
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Later, Sichuan province’s propaganda department saw the
value in this work, and held a meeting, saying this work should be expanded
upon and improved, using this foundation, since the Liu Wencai feudal manor
was quite large.
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So, this foundation became a blueprint for the cruelty
toward peasants, or the tragedy of the cruel exploitation of peasants.
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Then, regarding this student, he didn’t have the
ability, so an invitation was sent to Sichuan Fine Arts Institute.
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After the invitation was received, Sichuan Fine Arts
Institute sent Teacher Wang Guanyi, who was quite young at the time,
equivalent to a lecturer.
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He took a group of students with him: Long Taicheng, Zhang
Shaozhen, Long Xuli, Ren Yibo, a really small group of people.
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Then, after a while they went to Sichuan province’s
propaganda department to have a discussion and draw up a plan.
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Having the arts institute join in poured fresh blood into
the mix, and the Sichuan propaganda department placed even more importance
[on the project].
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Then, a professor from Sichuan Fine Arts Institute, Zhao
Shuli, quickly came along, and became a driving force behind the whole
sculpture Rent Collection Courtyard.
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He was familiar with people at every level [of society] in
China. With him involved, the draft became very full.
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Then, Sichuan province’s propaganda department decided
the draft [of the sculpture] would be placed in what was, at that time, the
site where Liu Wencai collected rent.
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That is, this very place [would be the site] for several
scenes showing the cruelty of this bloody history of exploitation.
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So, back then, there was great fanfare, and the government
committed 3000 RMB. At the time, that is, in the 1960s, 3000 RMB was a huge
sum.
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The government really supported [the project], which
cleared away a lot of obstacles.
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Another thing is that, at the time, in that era, a lot of
different things were suppressed.
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For example, no matter what type of artwork was being
created—they’d all face criticism.
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Teachers just about didn’t have the right to create
artwork; it had already been a long time since they’d created
anything.
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At that time, there was an elderly man named Guo Qixiang,
who was the head of the [sculpture] department.
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At the time, when I was sent to Sichuan Fine Arts
Institute, he told me, “All of the furniture in our home was made by
me.”
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Why was he making furniture? Because he couldn’t do
anything else—couldn’t make art.
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There was a teacher made an art work about young woman
picking flowers, who was criticized, since this [showed] bourgeois
sentiment. So, whatever you did [faced disapproval].
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Oh! Suddenly this great opportunity came along, and [these
artists] were chosen to create this [work that] reflected class
struggle.
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That showed confidence and trust in [them]. They felt it
was an honor, an endless honor and sense of purpose.
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So having been oppressed for a long time, suddenly
[creativity] burst forth. So, artists, instructors, groups, these ranks,
their passion and ability were summoned in an unprecedented way.
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Then, since the period for [the creation of Rent
Collection Courtyard] was really short, these folks were only given a few
months’ time; it had to be completed before the end of 1965.
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[Work] began in April 1965, and continued until October;
the whole thing was finished in November. So it actually used about half a
year’s time.
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[The sculpture] is a big group of people, 114 figures,
really lifelike figures. So, the people from the arts institute weren’t
enough; some folk artists joined in.
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The collaboration of the people sent by the arts institute
and these folk artists was an essential factor in completion of the
work.
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Since I work in sculpture, I’m very familiar with clay
sculpture.
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Clay has its own essential qualities; from beginning to
end, there’s a short period of time in which it’s most suitable to work
with.
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During this window, everyone must work together quickly,
in a spurt of energy.
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The folk artists would work on the texture of the
clothing, press the clay smooth, sort everything out; they had a way of
doing these things.
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But the teachers sent by the arts institute, they would
grasp the overall form and structure, the movement, skeleton and muscles;
they knew how to do these types of things.
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So, independently, these two [groups] couldn’t complete
Rent Collection Courtyard, so they collaborated, and that’s how they
successfully completed Rent Collection Courtyard.
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Then, the higher-ups had said that in this mission, the
more lifelike you could make it, the better. The more it could move
ordinary people, the better.
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You were making art for ordinary people to look at; you
were making art to serve the people. So, you always wanted to make it
lifelike, using any means necessary.
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For example, they used the doorway on the site, and had a
corpse be carried through it.
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At the time, the wicker baskets, grain-measuring peck, and
grain-sorting machine [winnower] were all things that were readily
available.
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Then, to make these [clay] figures lifelike, glass eyes
were used, so it looked a little like a Buddha, a god—that type of
feeling.
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In this way, [the work] created an artistic language
foreshadowing an early stage of Surrealism. Actually, it was quite distinct
from later [Surrealism].
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But some people believe this was a type of 1960s
[Surrealism] emerging a bit earlier than American Surrealism in the
1970s.
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Gao: Right, and also it used these “ready-mades.”
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Li: “Ready-mades”—a large number of
“ready-mades” were used.
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Gao: Right, a lot...
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Li: Actually, they didn’t know what [“ready-mades”
were]—they just did it for realism. How to—
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Gao: It didn’t have that kind of contemporary art,
“ready-made” concept.
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Li: There wasn’t this concept, and also on that site,
that site was surrounding an open courtyard, with that light, and they made
so many figures.
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The first time I went there, I felt extremely moved; it
indeed is that kind of atmosphere, a tragic atmosphere, just like The Moon
Reflected on the Er-quan Spring.
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Looking at it from start to finish was very
inspirational.
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Then, every evening when they finished working, this group
of people, from the ranks of professors and instructors, along with the
folk artists, led by the party branch, they held a meeting, and were quite
unified.
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Actually, this wasn’t an individual creation, so today
when we reflect on that work, it’s not an individual work, it is a
collective [work].
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The group worked in strong unity and collaboration, and
quickly completed [the work] in a short time, very efficiently.
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Among the professors and artists, teachers and students,
there were no ranks; that is, they ate together, lived together, and
students could offer their opinions to teachers: “There and there, you
didn’t do it right.”
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Then, teachers could also give opinions to the folk
artists, and the folk artists could also offer their opinions.
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So at that time, in such a short period, they were
completely single-minded and very efficient, so that’s how they could do
it.
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Within five short months, they completed 114 figures,
which was really astonishing.
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Also, completing [Rent Collection Courtyard] was not like
how we do sculpture in the fine arts institute, with a steel wire frame
onto which you apply the clay.
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For [Rent Collection Courtyard], wooden stakes were put
into a cement base, with a wooden frame tied to them;
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if you didn’t put it together correctly, it would fall
apart, so the degree of difficulty in this production was quite high.
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So from every aspect, the degree of difficulty was
high.
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At this time, in this short period, it was like they were
temporary Communists, achieving unprecedented unity, exciting this power in
an unprecedented way.
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Usually, this [power] was suppressed, but at this time,
when a creative opportunity was available, their own abilities were
mobilized in an unprecedented way.
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Gao: It may have been a...a creative motivation and
direction; [the project] mobilized them all, this kind of passion and
zeal.
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Li: Right, right, right.
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Gao: And another thing is this kind of team aspect—
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Li: The team aspect—at that time they collaborated
really—
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Gao: The team aspect, that was enough to, in a short
period of time, just like an army fighting a war—enough to solve this
problem in an instant.
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Li: Even today it’s still hard to imagine.
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Gao: Right, this—
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Li: Another thing is, at that time, it wasn’t distant
from Liberation, from just after Liberation.
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Actually, in southwest China, it was still the old
society; the Liberation new society and the old society were no different
from one another.
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Everywhere—vegetable markets, streets—people and
circumstances were from the old society, so at the time [the artists]
thought carefully about finding figures of oppression—
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Oh! Back then, one day Wang Guanyi saw a young woman in a
vegetable market, who hadn’t sold all of her goods, and [he] said,
“This young girl is too great!” and quickly took a photo.
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That photo later became [the model] for the girl with the
bamboo carrying pole. The girl with the bamboo carrying pole is that young
woman.
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To help [the artists] do well, the government mobilized an
entire Sichuan opera troupe to help, asking “What kind of scene do you
want to arrange?”
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It wasn’t one person [posing]; it was a group of people
[from the Sichuan opera troupe], a group of people [acting out different
scenes].
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[For example], how did the landlord’s lackey move? Hold
that pose!
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It was a bit like Caravaggio during the Renaissance; at
that time, the art had already risen to a higher realm, so everything was
being done in service to the art.
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In a short period, it was completed; they worked
diligently.
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The whole group—today we see photos, photos of each
group [of sculptures], you’d arrange a pose; then he’d come to make
it.
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He makes it by taking photos. Whatever you do, he
coordinates with you.
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Then, the masses at the time—the [site] was open, so the
masses came to have a look. They’d offer suggestions, saying, “Oh, this
isn’t right.
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When collecting rent or whatever, the landlord’s lackey
would have two steel balls in his pockets, which would make them hang down,
that kind of shape.
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Since [the lackey] had nothing to do, had time on his
hands, he’d roll the steel balls around in his hand, watching the
peasants turning in their rent or whatever”
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—these kinds of details, including the dog, what breed
it was— “You’d better not do it wrong, since our local dogs look like
this.”
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So, that is to say, [the work] really incorporated local
opinion.
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And another thing, the major thing is that those artists,
in that atmosphere, although they knew they were creating a story, but they
were full of the ideal of class struggle.
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It fit in with that kind of thinking, with the whole era
of Mao Zedong advocating class struggle.
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[The artists] believed; they’d already turned their belief
[in class struggle] into an almost religious conviction, belief in the Mao
era, that kind of spirit, so they had a conviction, a kind of fighting
spirit.
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If I speak of today, it’s a totally different thing,
since that conviction was destroyed—the bubble burst—so that kind of
impassioned feeling could never appear. So—
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Gao: Right, right, since that [feeling] seemed to depend
on a kind of—no matter if we’re speaking of the artistic mentality, or
politically, or that it was selected, was completely—that is, a kind
of—
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Li: Passionate and romantic.
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Gao: Passionate and romantic, the spirituality or
utopian—
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Li: Right, it is really utopian.
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Gao: It’s that beneath the cover of that spiritual
atmosphere, something was created.
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Let’s invite Zha Hongmei to talk a little about the
composition of Rent Collection Courtyard as well as some different aspects
of it, and to generally introduce the content a bit.
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Zha: At the time, the whole team for Rent Collection
Courtyard designed a really theatrical scene, a complete scenario that had
story-like qualities, conflict, and theatricality.
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Then, there were 114 figures that appeared in the scene,
including 82 men, 32 women, as well as 17 elderly people, 18 children, and
of course the one dog Teacher Li just mentioned.
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Also, there were over 50 artifacts, all of which came
completely from everyday life, including the large grain-measuring peck,
the scales, and then also the flywheel, this grain-sorting machine.
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Altogether there were more than 50 of these
“ready-mades.”
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At the time, all of the groups of figures were arranged
into seven major segments; altogether there were 26 specific scenes.
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The seven major segments illustrated the process of
collecting rent: the peasants and tenant farmers sending the rent, that is,
handing over the rent [in grain], walking a long way;
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and then on to the actual rent collection courtyard, with
young and old alike, many mouths to feed, carrying—or rather, pushing
handcarts to transport the grain to the rent collection courtyard.
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Then, from handing over and collecting rent, or to
examining the rent [grain], and then sorting the grain, measuring it in the
peck, then calculating the debt and extorting the rent, and finally on to
rage—these seven major segments.
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Actually, in each scene, the artists’ and the creative
team’s arrangement and forms of the figures were extremely thoughtful and
detailed,
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including that in the scenes within rent collection, the
elderly people and children were sculpted to be extremely thin.
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And then, during the examination of the rent, some
elements appear that are really theatrical and full of conflict.
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For example, the landlord’s henchman finds that, in this
wicker basket of grain being handed over, there is one weed.
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He concludes that this grain is not of the highest
quality, and knocks over the whole basket, then kicks the old man paying
rent down to the ground.
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These kinds of scenes, especially in the scene of sorting
the grain—since at the time, how could the landlord’s many levels of
exploitation, this kind of ruthlessness, this living environment, be
reflected?
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The flywheel at the time, this so-called flywheel
grain-sorting machine, actually [the landlord] could control the strength
of the wind power, could set it to the highest strength, so the grains that
were not perfectly plump would be blown away.
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This guaranteed that the landlord only accepted the
highest quality grain as rent.
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At the time, when the artists arranged for an elderly man
to come from beside the grain-sorting machine, in order to illustrate the
strength of the wind from the flywheel, the old man raised his arm [to
cover his face].
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There were a lot of details like this, such as within the
scene of extorting the rent—[the peasants] were unable to hand over
enough grain.
136
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:12.060 align:center line:-1
Even after a year of backbreaking work, the entire harvest
was not enough to repay the debt to the landlord.
137
00:21:12.070 --> 00:21:24.240 align:center line:-1
So, landlords would have all different methods of
extracting the rent, including permanently separating families,
138
00:21:24.250 --> 00:21:41.000 align:center line:-1
as well as taking the only strong worker from a family,
binding him up, taking away his personal freedom—maybe he’d become an
indentured servant, right?
139
00:21:41.010 --> 00:22:05.700 align:center line:-1
Also, young married women who were breastfeeding, if they
couldn’t pay the rent, they’d be tied up and separated from their own
children, perhaps be forced into servitude in the landlord’s home,
etc.
140
00:22:05.710 --> 00:22:15.780 align:center line:-1
The piece had a lot of arrangement of details like this.
The site was arranged with these kinds of scenes, this kind of
theatricality.
141
00:22:15.790 --> 00:22:36.720 align:center line:-1
So, when more than four months of work had been finished,
on National Day 1965, in three days of its display, 20,000 people came to
visit, and the reaction was unprecedented.
142
00:22:36.730 --> 00:22:49.890 align:center line:-1
Right away, [China Artists’ Association general
secretary] Hua Junwu and others took notice of this display in a
landlord’s feudal manor in Dayi County, Sichuan.
143
00:22:49.900 --> 00:23:02.320 align:center line:-1
The influence of his reaction to it meant that the
teachers and students from Sichuan Fine Arts Institute,
144
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and a group of teachers and students from the sculpture
workshop of the Central Fine Arts Academy, were invited to reproduce it
with 40 figures in Beijing’s National Art Museum of China.
145
00:23:21.490 --> 00:23:27.120 align:center line:-1
Toward the end of December of the same year [1965], it was
opened to the public.
146
00:23:27.130 --> 00:23:37.920 align:center line:-1
Since it was exhibited in Beijing, the immediate effect
was like a sudden clap of thunder.
147
00:23:37.930 --> 00:23:54.610 align:center line:-1
At the time—from the end of 1965 to March 1966, three
months’ time, about 480,000 people visited it.
148
00:23:54.620 --> 00:24:04.900 align:center line:-1
After this, [the piece] was moved from the National Art
Museum of China to The Palace Museum and continued to be exhibited
there.
149
00:24:04.910 --> 00:24:16.190 align:center line:-1
It was moved there in June 1966—that is, all of the
sculptures, were conveyed to The Palace Museum using all different
methods.
150
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:32.740 align:center line:-1
There, the exhibition continued until October. According
to the written accounts of the time, there must have been close to 10
million people who visited.
151
00:24:32.750 --> 00:24:39.390 align:center line:-1
Also, there were a lot of people who had hoped to go to
this exhibition, but didn’t have a chance to see it.
152
00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:55.010 align:center line:-1
Actually, from the attention to every aspect of Rent
Collection Courtyard, and from the derivative products and reproductions
that were made of it, you can see the reaction to it at the time.
153
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In early 1966, Beijing Television began planning a
documentary of the same name, which was filmed using this large-scale group
sculpture as its model.
154
00:25:12.510 --> 00:25:30.960 align:center line:-1
Then, after this documentary came out, there were [Rent
Collection Courtyard] comic books and picture albums, and then a filmmaking
factory produced 35-millimeter and 18-millimeter prints of the
documentary.
155
00:25:30.970 --> 00:25:44.720 align:center line:-1
The 35-millimeter prints were mainly for screening in
major cities nationwide. Then, the 18-millimeter prints were sent to
numerous rural areas for screenings.
156
00:25:44.730 --> 00:25:56.030 align:center line:-1
These screenings in cities and villages went on for eight
years.
157
00:25:56.040 --> 00:26:17.670 align:center line:-1
Besides this, in 1970 Huangchuan Cultural Center in
Henan’s Xinyang district sent some artists specifically to make sketches
of this sculpture for reproduction.
158
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:31.710 align:center line:-1
Then, they created a mural of equivalent size, which also
attracted about 200,000 local visitors.
159
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:55.500 align:center line:-1
Later, Sichuan Fine Arts Institute again received support
and funding from the Sichuan provincial government to organize the manpower
to make a reproduction that could be permanently preserved, a copper-plated
fiberglass version.
160
00:26:55.510 --> 00:27:02.650 align:center line:-1
This version is still place in an exhibition room in
[Sichuan Fine Arts Institute’s] Luo Zhongli Art Museum.
161
00:27:02.660 --> 00:27:17.970 align:center line:-1
And of course later on, in the ’90s, as Teacher Li just
mentioned, [many artists such as himself] appropriated Rent Collection
Courtyard and created works inspired by it,
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00:27:17.980 --> 00:27:25.770 align:center line:-1
so we can see this work’s meaning within the history of
Chinese modern and contemporary sculpture.
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00:27:25.780 --> 00:27:38.770 align:center line:-1
Gao: Exactly. Of course, it was like a textbook for the
art of the Mao era; actually, it became a benchmark.
164
00:27:38.780 --> 00:27:52.550 align:center line:-1
Actually, this piece didn’t just have a deep influence
during the Mao era in China. At the same time, it was actually extremely
important to the whole 20th century.
165
00:27:52.560 --> 00:28:05.350 align:center line:-1
Actually, internationally, when the important
international curators went to China and saw Rent Collection Courtyard,
they were quite shocked.
166
00:28:05.360 --> 00:28:23.930 align:center line:-1
So, in 1972, the international curator [Harald] Szeemann
already wanted to exhibit this work internationally, but that was during
the unique circumstances of the Cultural Revolution.
167
00:28:23.940 --> 00:28:36.290 align:center line:-1
The Cultural Revolution Small Group, with Jiang Qing as
its head must not have agreed to allow this work to be taken out of the
country, due to the issue of conflicting [Western and Chinese]
ideologies.
168
00:28:36.300 --> 00:28:42.320 align:center line:-1
But this work had a huge influence on contemporary
art.
169
00:28:42.330 --> 00:28:57.120 align:center line:-1
Finally, Szeemann was able to show this work in Venice, in
the 48th Venice Biennale in [1999], by asking Cai Guoqiang to make a
complete reproduction of Rent Collection Courtyard.
170
00:28:57.130 --> 00:29:06.330 align:center line:-1
Then, teachers from Sichuan Fine Arts Institute who had
originally participated were invited to the scene to work.
171
00:29:06.340 --> 00:29:20.430 align:center line:-1
In the end, [Cai’s] work won the Venice Biennale’s
[Golden Lion Award for the Best Artist of the international exhibition]. I
got involved in this, though I didn't go to that Venice Biennale.
172
00:29:20.440 --> 00:29:28.590 align:center line:-1
Because of the influence of this exhibition, there was an
immediate reaction in China, especially at Sichuan Fine Arts Institute.
173
00:29:28.600 --> 00:29:30.060 align:center line:-1
At the time, Luo Zhongli was its president.
174
00:29:30.070 --> 00:29:44.800 align:center line:-1
Then, some artists, those who had created [the original
Rent Collection Courtyard], as well as some theorists, including the
institute’s leadership, raised some questions about this work [by Cai
Guoqiang]—there was a dispute over copyright.
175
00:29:44.810 --> 00:29:52.950 align:center line:-1
What’s more, they wanted to sue Cai Guoqiang for
copyright infringement.
176
00:29:52.960 --> 00:30:01.640 align:center line:-1
At the time, since I was in the United States, and I’d
been back in China, I understood the situation on both sides.
177
00:30:01.650 --> 00:30:08.470 align:center line:-1
I wrote a letter to Sichuan Fine Arts Institute president
Luo Zhongli.
178
00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:15.090 align:center line:-1
What I expressed was that contemporary art, especially
from postmodern onward, takes previous classic works as creative source
material and resources,
179
00:30:15.100 --> 00:30:22.530 align:center line:-1
transforming, imitating, appropriating, and then once
again transferring them to a different kind of contemporary meaning.
180
00:30:22.540 --> 00:30:25.040 align:center line:-1
This happens all the time.
181
00:30:25.050 --> 00:30:47.660 align:center line:-1
In itself, it does involve copyright issues, but as long
as the original creator is respected, and the creation is given the honor
it ought to be given, etc., I think this may still be reasonable and
allowable.
182
00:30:47.670 --> 00:30:54.680 align:center line:-1
In this way, copyright is really a gray area, really hard
to determine. So I wrote a letter to [Luo Zhongli].
183
00:30:54.690 --> 00:31:02.290 align:center line:-1
Later, president Luo Zhongli accepted this opinion, so
this issue just quieted down.
184
00:31:02.300 --> 00:31:17.300 align:center line:-1
But as for this kind of influence on contemporary art,
including sculptor Li Zhanyang, who also transformed this work into his own
contemporary artwork—
185
00:31:17.310 --> 00:31:32.140 align:center line:-1
actually, this is also monumental, taking Rent Collection
Courtyard’s original form, including the scenes, the segments, the
narrative, and even the process—the historical
process—
186
00:31:32.150 --> 00:31:44.380 align:center line:-1
and then using some personalities from contemporary art to
replace some of the different identities from the original—
187
00:31:44.390 --> 00:31:54.280 align:center line:-1
the peasants, the landlord, the household manager—it
amounts to creating another narrative, becoming a contemporary artwork.
188
00:31:54.290 --> 00:32:06.120 align:center line:-1
So Zhanyang, you should speak a bit about your own
creative point of view at the time, your impressions, why you did it this
way, etc. Please introduce it a bit.
189
00:32:06.130 --> 00:32:24.750 align:center line:-1
Li: OK. As was just mentioned, in a very unique historical
era, Rent Collection Courtyard was created, this very emotionally radiant,
romantic, idealistic, Utopian thing.
190
00:32:24.760 --> 00:32:33.430 align:center line:-1
Actually, later, it wasn’t just me, but a lot of other
artists and theorists reflected on it.
191
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:53.090 align:center line:-1
Among them, Chen Tong wrote an essay that touched upon
this work; he believed Rent Collection Courtyard was not the creation of
those artists who’d joined in producing it, or of one particular artist,
since during that era, they all worked together.
192
00:32:53.100 --> 00:33:00.670 align:center line:-1
Then, maybe the biggest influence on [the work] was the
idealist spirit of the Mao era or the Sichuan propaganda department.
193
00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:08.100 align:center line:-1
Or it was a mission; it was a very concrete thing, an
idealistic thing.
194
00:33:08.110 --> 00:33:10.510 align:center line:-1
Gao: And it had an imaginary quality.
195
00:33:10.520 --> 00:33:15.680 align:center line:-1
Li: Of course, of course. Concerning this imaginary
quality, this is really interesting—actually it was a made-up story,
196
00:33:15.690 --> 00:33:22.260 align:center line:-1
but people at the time believed it, so that work was
completed under a genuine, real situation.
197
00:33:22.270 --> 00:33:31.260 align:center line:-1
So, in that era, that work had quite a lot of meaning. But
later on, for example, Liu Wencai’s grandson Liu Xiaofei kept suing.
198
00:33:31.270 --> 00:33:42.310 align:center line:-1
One time, he held a discussion forum and invited me to be
a target of criticism, [saying], “You artists, you slandered my
grandfather like this, blah blah blah...”
199
00:33:42.320 --> 00:33:54.980 align:center line:-1
Later, it was said that Liu Xiaofei was the world’s
saddest man, since he was the only one, who, when he wanted to go home, had
to buy a ticket—since today when you go to the Liu Manor in Dayi County,
you have to spend money on a ticket.
200
00:33:54.990 --> 00:34:02.080 align:center line:-1
Liu Wencai’s grandson is not excluded; if he wants to go
home and have a look around, he has to buy a ticket, etc.
201
00:34:02.090 --> 00:34:11.130 align:center line:-1
This history and truth are related to art, but they are
not equivalent; if [we try to see them as] completely equivalent, that’s
too extreme—
202
00:34:11.140 --> 00:34:23.120 align:center line:-1
it will definitely produce this kind of result, since at
that time, the time Rent Collection Courtyard was created, as Teacher Zha
also said, the entire country was nonstop movements, nonstop class
struggle, nonstop creation of class struggle artworks.
203
00:34:23.130 --> 00:34:30.430 align:center line:-1
For example, Lu Xun Academy of Fine Arts [created]
Miners’ Rage; Central Academy of Fine Arts made Serfs’ Rage in
Tibet.
204
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:34.320 align:center line:-1
Then, in a lot of other places like Huangshi, etc., there
were [these works].
205
00:34:34.330 --> 00:34:47.490 align:center line:-1
There were many groups [of sculptures], but as soon as
Reform and Opening happened, the Gang of Four and class struggle were
rejected, and these things were quickly destroyed.
206
00:34:47.500 --> 00:34:54.000 align:center line:-1
Interestingly, our history today is not definitely
accurate; some people say it is the victors’ history, right?
207
00:34:54.010 --> 00:35:04.250 align:center line:-1
So if today you ask, “Was Liu Wencai really that bad?”
you can make a judgment, but you can say that because this artwork creates
a fictious story, it should be thoroughly rejected.
208
00:35:04.260 --> 00:35:16.260 align:center line:-1
No. The work, with the historical background of that time,
still has a lot of meaning, so Harald Szeemann believed this work was a
representative masterpiece of the Mao era.
209
00:35:16.270 --> 00:35:27.750 align:center line:-1
In the 1970s, [he thought about] how to [exhibit it] at
Documenta Kassel. Personally, the first time I went to Dayi County in
Sichuan and entered the exhibition space, I was truly moved.
210
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:38.930 align:center line:-1
It really is a kind of attraction. Maybe you know it’s
not real, but this work indeed has an infectiousness, a feeling like you
don’t recognize the space you’re in.
211
00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:50.320 align:center line:-1
Because at the time, the artists’ ideal had not yet been
destroyed. They were full of passion, absorbing lively images from
society—[the work] was a lot of elements all put together.
212
00:35:50.330 --> 00:35:57.820 align:center line:-1
[Their] capabilities converged on that particular site, at
a certain time and a certain place.
213
00:35:57.830 --> 00:36:14.980 align:center line:-1
So later on, I had an opportunity; I felt it was destiny,
fate—just like a magnetic field, really important—so later, I had the
chance to do an exhibition, and I immediately thought that I must do a
[work] like Rent Collection Courtyard.
214
00:36:14.990 --> 00:36:29.780 align:center line:-1
So, I just said, take contemporary art—since I’m
pretty familiar with it—I believe class struggle, these kinds of facts
exist, so [I] used all aspects of Rent Collection Courtyard, the form of
each group [of sculptures], and made them contemporary.
215
00:36:29.790 --> 00:36:34.340 align:center line:-1
Of course, it had Professor Gao’s [figure] in it. Other
people said I really captured Professor Gao’s unique points—it looks a
lot like him.
216
00:36:34.350 --> 00:36:46.760 align:center line:-1
In the end, I used [Joseph] Beuys and Chairman Mao to
introduce my Rent Collection Courtyard, so later my Beuys and Mao were more
famous than Rent Collection Courtyard—they were in every magazine.
217
00:36:46.770 --> 00:36:54.110 align:center line:-1
Using a postmodern method for deconstruction, this Rent
Collection Courtyard has already become a Rent Collection Courtyard for
today.
218
00:36:54.120 --> 00:36:56.100 align:center line:-1
That’s what I’d like to say. OK.
219
00:36:56.110 --> 00:37:14.350 align:center line:-1
Gao: Right. OK, in this short time we’ve given a general
introduction to this work’s history, how it came into being at the time,
and its meaning, as well as its influence on contemporary art.
220
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:28.280 align:center line:-1
Altogether I feel that today, when we look back at this
work of art, we definitely must reflect on it. Maybe we’d restore it to
its original era [to consider it].
221
00:37:28.290 --> 00:37:38.680 align:center line:-1
Another thing this touches on is, if we talk about art and
contemporary historical factors—truth—if we discuss this issue,
actually, we run into this problem,
222
00:37:38.690 --> 00:37:49.760 align:center line:-1
which is a contemporary problem: how to reflect on
history; how to reflect on artwork from that period, [and] if they reflect
that era.
223
00:37:49.770 --> 00:38:09.780 align:center line:-1
Actually, this issue persists today; we’re always
encountering issues like this. Contemporary art renews and reuses source
material, which also reflects this issue.
224
00:38:09.790 --> 00:38:24.620 align:center line:-1
So, by studying the creation of Rent Collection Courtyard,
this contemporary issue can be deeply [pondered].
225
00:38:24.630 --> 00:38:31.340 align:center line:-1
That’s where we’ll end today. Thank you both for
coming.
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00:38:31.350 --> 00:38:32.810 align:center line:-1
Zha: Thank you, Professor Gao.
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