WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.900 --> 00:00:24.160 align:center line:-1Gao Minglu: Hello, everyone. Today we’re going to talk about an artistic phenomenon of Chinese contemporary art in the 1980s, or an artistic style, called “rationalist painting.” 2 00:00:24.170 --> 00:00:32.770 align:center line:-1 This was a major painting group within the ’85 Art Movement. 3 00:00:32.780 --> 00:00:51.750 align:center line:-1 Today we’ve invited the artist Cheng Xiaoyu. As a painter, he was very active in the 1980s, and was a part of rationalist painting. 4 00:00:51.760 --> 00:01:12.160 align:center line:-1 So first, I’ll talk about the concept of rationalist painting. It was an artistic phenomenon that appeared around 1985. Why was it “rationalist”? Why “rational”? 5 00:01:12.170 --> 00:01:30.850 align:center line:-1 We usually think of painting, of art, as primarily emphasizing intuition. As for “rationalist,” it approaches philosophy, ideas, etc. So this is an interesting question. 6 00:01:30.860 --> 00:01:44.500 align:center line:-1 Around the mid-1980s—actually “rationalist” went on until the late ’80s—this “rationalist” concept was still quite a popular concept. 7 00:01:44.510 --> 00:01:55.980 align:center line:-1 In 1987, for example, Li Zehou, when speaking about Chinese tradition, even mentioned that the Confucian school also discussed rationalism. 8 00:01:55.990 --> 00:02:07.730 align:center line:-1 Liu Xiaobo opposed this kind of rationalism from another perspective, emphasizing expressionism, this anti-rationalism. 9 00:02:07.740 --> 00:02:23.250 align:center line:-1 So at the time, a new, very active cultural debate was initiated. In the 1980s I wrote several articles discussing the concept of “rationalist.” 10 00:02:23.260 --> 00:02:42.380 align:center line:-1 From the perspective of culture and art, I feel that “rational” emerged at the time not only as a cultural and artistic reflection on the Cultural Revolution, but also as a reflection on the post-Cultural Revolution period. 11 00:02:42.390 --> 00:02:52.570 align:center line:-1 The so-called post-Cultural Revolution was [after] the Cultural Revolution ended in 1976, up until about 1984. 12 00:02:52.580 --> 00:02:58.790 align:center line:-1 In Chinese contemporary art, this period of time is called “post-Cultural Revolution.” 13 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:14.460 align:center line:-1 Everyone knows the major artistic phenomena during this post-Cultural Revolution period: one is “scar art,” and another is “rustic [realism],” “rustic art.” 14 00:03:14.470 --> 00:03:20.940 align:center line:-1 Of course, there were also some avant-garde art phenomena, for example the Stars group, the No Name group, 15 00:03:20.950 --> 00:03:31.070 align:center line:-1 these painting groups, who primarily advocated studying things from western modernism, and also advocated personal freedom of expression. 16 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:39.090 align:center line:-1 In addition, there were some who emphasized abstraction, for example, formal beauty, etc., paying special attention to formal study. 17 00:03:39.100 --> 00:03:52.710 align:center line:-1 So, from the perspective of these social and cultural trends in thinking, the “post-Cultural Revolution” period was primarily concerned with humanism, 18 00:03:52.720 --> 00:04:07.590 align:center line:-1 since actually around 1978 the discussion of humanism emerged, and practice was the only standard for examining truth, etc.—such philosophical topics emerged. 19 00:04:07.600 --> 00:04:19.910 align:center line:-1 This followed the emergence of “scar painting” and “rustic painting,” which really had the primary aim of reflecting on the Cultural Revolution, 20 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:34.560 align:center line:-1 and their major subject matter was tragedies from the Cultural Revolution: intellectuals being struggled against, violent struggle, etc., these tragedies created in the Cultural Revolution. 21 00:04:34.570 --> 00:04:46.450 align:center line:-1 This was very natural, I feel—this type of artistic phenomenon appearing after the Cultural Revolution, using the technique of realism to reflect on the Cultural Revolution, reflect on this period of tragedy in China. 22 00:04:46.460 --> 00:04:58.760 align:center line:-1 The problem was that these paintings, including the subject matter, and even literature—we all know that at the time there was also “scar literature”— 23 00:04:58.770 --> 00:05:07.370 align:center line:-1 all paid excessive attention to people’s [resentments and complaints] during the Cultural Revolution period or the “post-Cultural Revolution,” 24 00:05:07.380 --> 00:05:19.480 align:center line:-1 no matter if it was intellectuals’, or regular, ordinary people’s resentments and complaints about the Cultural Revolution. 25 00:05:19.490 --> 00:05:32.190 align:center line:-1 Of course there was also criticism—definitely there was criticism—but mostly it was expressing the Cultural Revolution from a feeling, a mood, an emotional standpoint. 26 00:05:32.200 --> 00:05:48.380 align:center line:-1 As for this kind of expression, from the viewpoint of an even younger generation of artists and intellectuals during the mid-’80s, it excessively emphasized this kind of complaint, while lacking rational reflection. 27 00:05:48.390 --> 00:06:15.390 align:center line:-1 So this rationalism, from both historical and cultural standpoints, hoped to be able to rationally reflect and ponder on grievances or complaints from the viewpoint of human nature, rather than simply from social feeling, which is anti-rational. 28 00:06:15.400 --> 00:06:28.870 align:center line:-1 So, in this way a rational trend in thinking emerged. Of course it was related to the “cultural fever” that appeared at the time. 29 00:06:28.880 --> 00:06:45.050 align:center line:-1 This “cultural fever” emerged in the mid-’80s, probing this. It was influenced by western modern culture and art, including philosophy and cultural studies. 30 00:06:45.060 --> 00:06:59.160 align:center line:-1 A large amount of western translated material was published at this time, so among university students, intellectuals, and artists, this was very influential. 31 00:06:59.170 --> 00:07:05.280 align:center line:-1 Everyone was joining these types of associations, large-scale and small-scale, and a lot of discussion conferences on this [topic]. 32 00:07:05.290 --> 00:07:18.460 align:center line:-1 I myself joined a lot of discussion conferences large and small in Beijing at the time, as well as lecture series [featuring] thinkers and intellectuals from the older generation. 33 00:07:18.470 --> 00:07:32.600 align:center line:-1 Mr. Liang Shuming, I can picture him holding all the books he’d published and putting them on the lectern, then standing there and speaking for more than two hours. 34 00:07:32.610 --> 00:07:42.900 align:center line:-1 So, no matter which generation, at this time everyone was excited, emphasizing this kind of cultural and philosophical reflection. 35 00:07:42.910 --> 00:07:49.120 align:center line:-1 In this way, rationalist painting emerging in art was inevitable. 36 00:07:49.130 --> 00:08:13.270 align:center line:-1 Rationalist painting was actually...creation from the perspective of ideas, taking one’s own mental state, taking this generation of intellectuals’ thinking and psychological state, their reflections, [and thinking of] how to incorporate them into painting. 37 00:08:13.280 --> 00:08:30.400 align:center line:-1 This question is a challenge in itself, since China’s artists, this generation of students, several generations of students, all received training in realism, in the socialist realism of the past. 38 00:08:30.410 --> 00:08:34.440 align:center line:-1 This kind of educational tradition was actually extended continuously after the Cultural Revolution. 39 00:08:34.450 --> 00:08:39.080 align:center line:-1 In this way, its particular technique, the things that were studied actually were the elements of realism, 40 00:08:39.090 --> 00:08:53.220 align:center line:-1 but at the same time, there was the influence of western modernism, including surrealism, different modern genres, futurism, even Dadaism, this kind of influence. 41 00:08:53.230 --> 00:09:04.000 align:center line:-1 But the artistic language, this "arsenal", it wasn't that full; 42 00:09:04.010 --> 00:09:23.010 align:center line:-1 the things it had stockpiled still weren’t many, so it mobilized as much as possible one’s own personal arsenal of language, especially the language of realism, to express ideas. 43 00:09:23.020 --> 00:09:39.230 align:center line:-1 So, a very interesting phenomenon was created, that is, it was a Chinese native formal language, a type of formal language, but it also incorporated a lot of the internationalization of the time— 44 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:46.060 align:center line:-1 since it had a western influence, had carried out a dialogue with the west, this type of idea was incorporated into this type of artistic creation. 45 00:09:46.070 --> 00:10:03.440 align:center line:-1 So a very unusual phenomenon occurred, that is, it used a so-called realistic scene, but at the same time this type of realistic scene was part of a more complicated, grand philosophical or cultural idea. 46 00:10:03.450 --> 00:10:14.230 align:center line:-1 So this kind of ineffable, very interesting artistic phenomenon emerged. 47 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:24.480 align:center line:-1 At that time, in 1986, I published an article called “About Rationalist Painting” in Art Monthly magazine. 48 00:10:24.490 --> 00:10:39.140 align:center line:-1 Based on the art phenomena that emerged in 1985, I put together a summary and carried out an analysis, so this concept of rationalist painting was formally mentioned. 49 00:10:39.150 --> 00:10:47.970 align:center line:-1 After [this article] was published, it gained attention, and there were a lot of discussions revolving around this topic. 50 00:10:47.980 --> 00:10:54.930 align:center line:-1 As far as this artistic phenomenon goes, its emergence was a result of two major factors. 51 00:10:54.940 --> 00:11:14.700 align:center line:-1 One was that in 1984, there was the Sixth National Art Exhibition. This National Art Exhibition actually was trying to summarize post-Cultural Revolution artistic creation in China, contemporary artistic creation. 52 00:11:14.710 --> 00:11:31.460 align:center line:-1 But because in 1983 a political movement emerged, that is, the Anti-Spiritual Pollution Campaign, the country’s government launched this Anti-Spiritual Pollution [Campaign], 53 00:11:31.470 --> 00:11:43.700 align:center line:-1 which mostly criticized the influence of western modernism on Chinese contemporary art and culture, including literature. 54 00:11:43.710 --> 00:11:55.960 align:center line:-1 After this movement came along, it criticized a lot of the exploratory behavior of the time, these artistic and literary works. 55 00:11:55.970 --> 00:12:07.810 align:center line:-1 This amounted to taking all the forward development made after the Cultural Revolution, exploration of how to modernize Chinese culture and art, this type of trend, and reining it in a bit. 56 00:12:07.820 --> 00:12:21.700 align:center line:-1 So, this National Art Exhibition in 1983 was an extremely conservative phenomenon, yet it inspired the disgust of artists of all ages. 57 00:12:21.710 --> 00:12:36.460 align:center line:-1 So, from the opposing direction, it was equal to pushing a new artistic phenomenon to emerge. Then, 1985 happened to be called International Youth Year. 58 00:12:36.470 --> 00:12:53.130 align:center line:-1 This was organized by UNESCO, who set 1985 as International Youth Year, so there were activities all over the world. 59 00:12:53.140 --> 00:13:02.380 align:center line:-1 In Beijing, in 1985, there was the International Youth Year Art Exhibition, a large-scale exhibition. 60 00:13:02.390 --> 00:13:18.840 align:center line:-1 It happened to be held right about the time students from every college and academy were graduating, so a lot of graduating students took their works to join in the 1985 International Youth Year Art Exhibition. 61 00:13:18.850 --> 00:13:22.310 align:center line:-1 I don’t know, Cheng Xiaoyu, did you take part? 62 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:34.600 align:center line:-1 Cheng: I joined in, I had one piece, but there was a pretty funny result. [My] piece was chosen and put into the catalog; [I] was put on the list of artists, etc. 63 00:13:34.610 --> 00:13:46.830 align:center line:-1 When the exhibition was about to open—I heard it was just on the last day [before the opening]— Central Committee Publicity Department censored and withdrew [my work], saying it didn’t fit the theme of the exhibition. 64 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:53.620 align:center line:-1 Gao: Oh, right, this type of occurrence also happened during this exhibition, including at the time of the judging. 65 00:13:53.630 --> 00:14:06.480 align:center line:-1 The final awards also caused a big controversy later, including, for example, Zhang Qun and Meng Luding’s [In the New Era: Revelations of] Adam and Eve; this piece incited controversy. 66 00:14:06.490 --> 00:14:12.830 align:center line:-1 So, this incident was a definite push forward at the time. 67 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:31.750 align:center line:-1 Another [factor] is that from 1985 onward there appeared a large number of self-organized young artists’ groups. Everywhere in the country... 68 00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:54.960 align:center line:-1 later, in 1987, when we wrote a book [The History of Chinese Contemporary Art], we’d already done a survey [and found that] in 1985 and ’86, 81 [art groups] had emerged, this is what we knew; this is what we had explicitly counted up. 69 00:14:54.970 --> 00:15:02.990 align:center line:-1 81 groups, in all areas of the country, including Tibet, Qinghai, these remote areas; every place had them. 70 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:13.170 align:center line:-1 Probably other than Xinjiang, every province such as Gansu, etc. all had this kind of youth group. 71 00:15:13.180 --> 00:15:21.590 align:center line:-1 These youth groups put out manifestos, held exhibitions, convened discussion conferences. 72 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:31.270 align:center line:-1 What’s important is that these ideas were actually all modernist, modern, avant-garde, vanguard, experimental; it was this kind of situation. Its impact was huge. 73 00:15:31.280 --> 00:15:44.520 align:center line:-1 Then, among these groups, one major artistic phenomenon we can introduce, which I’ve called rationalist painting—they had a lot of this... 74 00:15:44.530 --> 00:16:13.200 align:center line:-1 Though [the groups] were self-initiated and didn’t have close communication between them, for whatever reason, a commonality developed, and there were many similar artistic characteristics. 75 00:16:13.210 --> 00:16:35.010 align:center line:-1 So this is [within] the ’85 Movement; a major thing was this movement of art groups; we’ll give a full overview of the ’85 Art Movement in its own separate lecture. 76 00:16:35.020 --> 00:16:50.530 align:center line:-1 So rationalist painting was one [development] within this, a major wave in thinking, while another was something I called “current of life [painting].” 77 00:16:50.540 --> 00:17:07.250 align:center line:-1 This so-called current of life emphasized original nature, the impulses of life. It was influenced by western philosophy like Henri Bergson’s vitalism. 78 00:17:07.260 --> 00:17:19.090 align:center line:-1 As for native Chinese influences, there was “searching for roots,” origins, these kinds of expressionistic influences, 79 00:17:19.100 --> 00:17:35.400 align:center line:-1 so besides rationalist painting, this other phenomenon [“current of life”] was concentrated in China’s west, southwest and northwest, or in Shanxi, Shaanxi, these areas. 80 00:17:35.410 --> 00:17:44.660 align:center line:-1 Another thing is that in the coastal areas there appeared “idea art,” which was influenced by western conceptual art. 81 00:17:44.670 --> 00:17:56.390 align:center line:-1 For example, there was “Xiamen Dada”—Huang Yongping in Fujian [province]. Or, in Zhejiang [province] some art groups appeared, as well as in Shanghai, etc. 82 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:06.390 align:center line:-1 Those modern cities where industry was rather developed, along the southeast coast, had this form of idea art. 83 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:21.710 align:center line:-1 To return to rationalist painting, it had its own unique characteristics, different from the other two things I just mentioned; it had its own rather fresh features. 84 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:34.790 align:center line:-1 Next, I’ll talk about its major artistic thinking and features. 85 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:44.390 align:center line:-1 I just gave everyone an introduction to its background and why rationalist painting emerged at the time it did. 86 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:53.030 align:center line:-1 [I introduced the background of] its emergence from the greater national and even international context. 87 00:18:53.040 --> 00:19:14.060 align:center line:-1 So, to speak from a more narrow aspect, [I also introduced] during the ’85 Movement, China’s first contemporary art or avant-garde movement, [“rationalist painting”] was one part; why it appeared at that time. 88 00:19:14.070 --> 00:19:36.900 align:center line:-1 Next, I’ll talk about what rationalist painting was like, what kind of ideas the artists were expressing in it, and what type of language was used in these pieces, what kinds of forms, compositions, etc., were used to express these ideas. 89 00:19:36.910 --> 00:19:40.320 align:center line:-1 First, one of its unique characteristics. 90 00:19:40.330 --> 00:19:59.980 align:center line:-1 In rationalist painting, all the human forms’ identities are universal; a figure is not a concrete individual, and furthermore, its identity is very unclear, 91 00:19:59.990 --> 00:20:16.890 align:center line:-1 without, for example, [the individuality] of the post-Cultural Revolution era—for example, [Luo Zhongli’s] Father, a peasant from Dabashan, or Tibet’s Shepherd Girl, or some field, a little girl in a mountain village, etc. 92 00:20:16.900 --> 00:20:25.880 align:center line:-1 Furthermore, [in such post-Cultural Revolution paintings] there is also a concrete setting, a concrete village, or a concrete harvest area, etc. 93 00:20:25.890 --> 00:20:28.970 align:center line:-1 However, in rationalist painting, there aren’t these things. 94 00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:52.530 align:center line:-1 The human forms are even quite stern, to the point of being expressionless, expressionless to the point that in a lot of these paintings even the figures’ gender is unclear. 95 00:20:52.540 --> 00:20:57.850 align:center line:-1 For example, Zhejiang’s Geng Jianyi has a painting called Two People Under the Lamplight [1985]. 96 00:20:57.860 --> 00:21:15.420 align:center line:-1 Actually, it’s a man and a woman, two students, sitting behind a table, not speaking, just looking forward. There's a glass of water and a book on the desk. 97 00:21:15.430 --> 00:21:37.420 align:center line:-1 It’s a really simple scene; it’s not trying to explain these two people’s identity; it’s emphasizing these young students sitting there thinking, 98 00:21:37.430 --> 00:21:49.710 align:center line:-1 so I called this “philosophical contemplation,” or what we call meditation, cultural meditation, this kind of contemplation, expressing the spiritual situation. 99 00:21:49.720 --> 00:22:10.990 align:center line:-1 Also, the person, the figure in this painting, seems to have no personality; it’s a kind of universal person, transcending race, gender, even culture, group, the cultural sphere, cultural arena. 100 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:18.920 align:center line:-1 It is humanity, universality, this kind of representative of human nature. 101 00:22:18.930 --> 00:22:29.060 align:center line:-1 So, with a lot of rationalist painting, if we put [different works] together, we discover that they all have this same characteristic. This is the first feature. 102 00:22:29.070 --> 00:22:35.570 align:center line:-1 The second [feature] is that, as I just said, it is not a concrete space. 103 00:22:35.580 --> 00:22:47.190 align:center line:-1 For example, [the scene] is happening in a room, or on some corner in a rural village, or on a city street, etc. 104 00:22:47.200 --> 00:23:04.100 align:center line:-1 It doesn’t give you a concrete, realistic setting; in general, its setting usually has a blank background, or a black or gray background, without a concrete, realistic background or space. 105 00:23:04.110 --> 00:23:20.640 align:center line:-1 Another thing is that the figures within [the painting], for one thing, they are all unmoving or sitting quietly, or they are in contemplation, or in conversation. 106 00:23:20.650 --> 00:23:40.890 align:center line:-1 Also, sometimes the figures have their backs turned. For example, Yuan Qingyi’s The Spring is Coming [1985]: he paints himself, but in this case, to a certain extent he represents this generation of intellectuals. 107 00:23:40.900 --> 00:23:55.280 align:center line:-1 His head is turned and he is looking at a table in the room, on which is placed Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason, along with an apple. 108 00:23:55.290 --> 00:24:15.690 align:center line:-1 This room is very simple, decorated very simply; the major thing is the table, and we can't see the main figure’s face; we see the book and apple he is focused on. 109 00:24:15.700 --> 00:24:31.140 align:center line:-1 So, a lot of figures [in rationalist painting] have nearly no facial features. For example, Cheng Xiaoyu did a painting called The East [1985], which shows a group of people, but none of them have any facial features. 110 00:24:31.150 --> 00:24:45.760 align:center line:-1 Their heads are egg-shaped, and their postures are all the same. They seem to be riding bicycles, the whole group facing in one direction, in motion. 111 00:24:45.770 --> 00:25:01.820 align:center line:-1 The background seems to be a universe, like a star or a planet; the sky doesn’t even have anything concrete, nothing at all; the background is very, very universal. 112 00:25:01.830 --> 00:25:11.550 align:center line:-1 So this person here represents the concept of a kind of so-called “person” existing within a universal space; 113 00:25:11.560 --> 00:25:21.410 align:center line:-1 it’s not a concrete, individual person living within a so-called “reality,” but rather is a kind of representative of humanity who is currently engaging in reflection. 114 00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:28.040 align:center line:-1 Then, [the painting’s] space is certainly this kind of universal space. It is not a concrete space that exists in our own reality. 115 00:25:28.050 --> 00:25:38.290 align:center line:-1 The third [feature]: I just mentioned this kind of meditation, contemplation, philosophy, this... 116 00:25:38.300 --> 00:25:45.000 align:center line:-1 If you look at these artists, what were they often contemplating, often writing about? 117 00:25:45.010 --> 00:25:58.740 align:center line:-1 In my own archive, I’ve collected a lot of notes the artists wrote by hand at the time, handwritten articles, their own manuscripts. 118 00:25:58.750 --> 00:26:14.240 align:center line:-1 You can see that while the concrete things artists from different areas and groups were contemplating may have been different, such differences were minor. 119 00:26:14.250 --> 00:26:22.140 align:center line:-1 For example, the artists in Shanghai may contemplate philosophical questions such as the traditional eastern “being and not being,” 120 00:26:22.150 --> 00:26:34.110 align:center line:-1 like the Dao De Jing [Tao Te Ching], these philosophies, how to transfer them to a contemporary, modern cultural form. 121 00:26:34.120 --> 00:27:02.990 align:center line:-1 A group of artists in Nanjing, influenced by existentialism, were contemplating this existentialism, this kind of humanism, moving toward the future, 122 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:12.020 align:center line:-1 how could we take this future humanism, humanity, this contemplation and existentialism, and blend them together. 123 00:27:12.030 --> 00:27:30.190 align:center line:-1 So, in their paintings you can see they take some language forms from western surrealism, put together in some paintings with a representative intellectual. 124 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:41.440 align:center line:-1 It has a realistic feeling, a Chinese realism feeling, which is this generation of intellectuals’ state of thinking, while at the same time there is a kind of surrealistic tendency. 125 00:27:41.450 --> 00:27:52.360 align:center line:-1 Now, in the Northwest, for example the Northern Art Group, they emphasized this kind of culture of frigid areas, the north pole, 126 00:27:52.370 --> 00:28:04.880 align:center line:-1 how to reflect in this kind of frozen world, and this kind of reflection had a so-called metaphysical, even a religious kind of meditative spirit. 127 00:28:04.890 --> 00:28:26.320 align:center line:-1 So, for example Wang Guangyi often painting two people, or a person turned away, not concrete at all, very abstracted, this kind of figure, or two people sitting on two sides of a table, with a water kettle, an apple, etc. on the table. 128 00:28:26.330 --> 00:28:37.870 align:center line:-1 He is portraying a kind of philosophical contemplation in itself, that is, meditating on this kind of situation itself. 129 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:51.660 align:center line:-1 So, a lot of paintings are all rather static, and what’s more, the colors are black, white, and gray, avoiding the use of bright colors, the kinds of colors that arouse one’s visual sense, 130 00:28:51.670 --> 00:29:07.330 align:center line:-1 but to the contrary use these kinds of—perhaps to some degree it is related to traditional ink [painting], 131 00:29:07.340 --> 00:29:19.170 align:center line:-1 but a lot of ideas manifested in their way of thinking, far from the kinds of bright, crazy colors used in modern expressionism and abstraction. 132 00:29:19.180 --> 00:29:32.130 align:center line:-1 What’s important here is this is a kind of quiet; in meditation there must be quiet; philosophical contemplation need only have a very, very large and empty space, and a distant horizon. 133 00:29:32.140 --> 00:29:38.180 align:center line:-1 Also, the whole space should be primitive—tranquil and primitive. 134 00:29:38.190 --> 00:29:45.860 align:center line:-1 Only in this type of environment and space can people carry out philosophical contemplation and reflection. 135 00:29:45.870 --> 00:29:55.980 align:center line:-1 For example, this includes the Shanghai artist Zhang Jianjun’s Human Beings and Their Clock [1985-1986]. 136 00:29:55.990 --> 00:30:13.940 align:center line:-1 We can vaguely sense these are people of Earth, since [in the painting] there seem to be eastern and western people gathered together, and then high up above there hangs an abstract clock, which represents time. 137 00:30:13.950 --> 00:30:22.250 align:center line:-1 However, the whole space is, again, very universalized; it seems that the people are standing on a planet, a really abstracted, universal space. 138 00:30:22.260 --> 00:30:35.320 align:center line:-1 In this way, time and space are abstracted, emptied out, so it’s not a specific, concrete, narrow realistic space. 139 00:30:35.330 --> 00:30:40.780 align:center line:-1 The fourth feature—I just mentioned the third, philosophical contemplation. 140 00:30:40.790 --> 00:30:56.550 align:center line:-1 The fourth feature is that [rationalist painting] often uses symbols of the Enlightenment, such as water glasses, books, apples—these are used quite often. 141 00:30:56.560 --> 00:31:02.610 align:center line:-1 As for this phenomenon, when I was writing “[About] Rationalist Painting” in 1986, I hadn’t yet really noticed it. 142 00:31:02.620 --> 00:31:08.580 align:center line:-1 Though I mentioned some paintings had made use of these elements, I hadn’t yet put forth a generalization. 143 00:31:08.590 --> 00:31:31.850 align:center line:-1 Later, when I carefully considered these paintings together, I discovered that just by chance a lot of them used apples; books were really common, as were water glasses. Why? 144 00:31:31.860 --> 00:31:41.790 align:center line:-1 We all know, a water glass is a kind of resource, a fountainhead, right? It’s a fountainhead, the origin of existence and of knowledge. 145 00:31:41.800 --> 00:31:47.610 align:center line:-1 A book is even more so a kind of knowledge, reflection, a philosophical fountainhead. 146 00:31:47.620 --> 00:31:57.900 align:center line:-1 And the apple, we all know, it served as enlightenment in the Bible; after Adam and Eve ate the apple they realized they were humans; 147 00:31:57.910 --> 00:32:04.420 align:center line:-1 of course, this was viewed as original sin, but the apple is the symbol of original sin in the Bible. 148 00:32:04.430 --> 00:32:12.280 align:center line:-1 Placing it in 1985, in mid-’80s China’s rationalist painting, it became a symbol of cultural enlightenment. It is an active [symbol]. 149 00:32:12.290 --> 00:32:22.950 align:center line:-1 For example, in Zhang Qun and Meng Luding’s painting In the New Era: Revelations of Adam and Eve [1985], what is the revelation? 150 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:37.330 align:center line:-1 It’s the revelation of the apple. A young female student is walking out from a bunch of glass blocks she has broken through, holding an apple in her hand. 151 00:32:37.340 --> 00:32:45.950 align:center line:-1 In the lower part of the painting there is a male student, a young man, sitting at a table, with a plate and a knife on the table. 152 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:58.010 align:center line:-1 He’s waiting to eat an apple, waiting for the apple. So, you can see two large doors; the background is two large doors that look like the doors of the Forbidden City, representing two traditional Chinese doors. 153 00:32:58.020 --> 00:33:14.230 align:center line:-1 Also, below there are a naked young man and young woman, standing on the Mogao caves of Dunhuang, standing on top of this mountain range, which represents traditional Chinese culture. 154 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:28.610 align:center line:-1 So, all of these symbols accord with the enlightenment we mentioned: a new era, new cultural revelations; they are all related to a new era’s revelations. 155 00:33:28.620 --> 00:33:47.510 align:center line:-1 Gu Wenda has a piece called Self-Portrait [with a Window Behind] [1985], a self-portrait, with five of his own figures sitting there, painted in a row; each figure has an apple in his hand. 156 00:33:47.520 --> 00:34:08.490 align:center line:-1 And then, for example, a painter from Hunan, [Zuo Zhengyao] painted a piece called Laozi, Zhuangzi, and Wife [1985], three people sitting under an apple tree; he uses formalism with Chinese characteristics. 157 00:34:08.500 --> 00:34:25.390 align:center line:-1 In traditional China, this “zi” [子] denotes a sage, a philosopher, or a thinker, right? “Zi,” we often use “zi.” So everyone knows Laozi and Zhuangzi, such philosophies. 158 00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:54.620 align:center line:-1 But how about “qizi” [“wife”]? Here, “qizi” represents new youth of the ’80s, new intellectuals—this was deliberate, since “qizi” retains the “zi” character, just like Laozi and Zhuangzi. 159 00:34:54.630 --> 00:35:13.990 align:center line:-1 In the painting, we can see the three people sitting there, and then [Zhuangzi] says, “If the apple is ripe, it shall fall.” 160 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:27.510 align:center line:-1 Letting it fall is action by inaction; it will fall naturally. As for [Laozi], he is holding a plate, [as if saying], “If [the apple] falls, I’ll let nature take its course and eat it in passing.” 161 00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:35.740 align:center line:-1 But “wife” is different; she has gone ahead and picked an apple to eat. 162 00:35:35.750 --> 00:35:44.000 align:center line:-1 So, again it’s an apple, having an apple become a so-called revelation, become a symbol of a new era. 163 00:35:44.010 --> 00:35:59.030 align:center line:-1 So, this era’s young people want to assertively go to face it, actively take this new thing, this new era, this modern kind of enlightenment—they want to take hold of all of it. 164 00:35:59.040 --> 00:36:17.120 align:center line:-1 So, we can see that is how it’s being said in this painting, that is, taking a symbol of enlightenment, the apple, as a theme, and then considering how to represent this generation of artists’ or intellectuals’ ideas. 165 00:36:17.130 --> 00:36:28.610 align:center line:-1 So, we just saw that there were a few very distinct features. 166 00:36:28.620 --> 00:36:43.820 align:center line:-1 Another thing is that different areas’ rationalist painting all had different cultural claims. 167 00:36:43.830 --> 00:36:51.480 align:center line:-1 For example, in the north, the Northern Art Group in the Northeast, they emphasized the so-called polar culture. 168 00:36:51.490 --> 00:36:59.360 align:center line:-1 What is polar culture? It’s that kind of even more metaphysical, even more transcendent, to some extent containing a kind of religion— 169 00:36:59.370 --> 00:37:09.440 align:center line:-1 since these artists believed China didn’t have religion; not having religion was not having this kind of pursuit of a sublime metaphysics. 170 00:37:09.450 --> 00:37:14.980 align:center line:-1 Then, they emphasized this in their painting; in their art they emphasized this kind of polar culture. 171 00:37:14.990 --> 00:37:21.860 align:center line:-1 So, in Jiangsu, with Ding Fang as a leader, artists emphasized “yellow earth” culture. 172 00:37:21.870 --> 00:37:33.600 align:center line:-1 We know that in the mid-’80s, there was the movie Yellow Earth [1984], and “root seeking” literature, things like this emerging, 173 00:37:33.610 --> 00:37:44.470 align:center line:-1 that is, [thinking about] how to return to the original Loess Plateau of northwest China, and Chinese history and culture that had accumulated for thousands of years. 174 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:58.870 align:center line:-1 Within this, there was also a kind of simple, natural human nature, but this kind of human nature in the mid-’80s could be compared to the ideology of the Cultural Revolution and pre-Cultural Revolution, 175 00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:03.710 align:center line:-1 that kind of pragmatic, political ravaging of human nature, that type of culture. 176 00:38:03.720 --> 00:38:12.650 align:center line:-1 Undoubtedly this kind of “yellow earth” culture is long-term, eternal, noble, etc. 177 00:38:12.660 --> 00:38:18.620 align:center line:-1 So, [“yellow earth”] paintings were obviously trying to promote this kind of “yellow earth” culture. 178 00:38:18.630 --> 00:38:30.690 align:center line:-1 And then in the Southwest, from Sichuan to Yunnan, especially in Yunnan, artists emphasized “wild soil” culture and “red soil” culture. 179 00:38:30.700 --> 00:38:42.310 align:center line:-1 What is “wild soil,” “red soil”? It’s the kind of land, plant life, and vegetation that contains the original blood of China’s ethnic minorities. 180 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:54.610 align:center line:-1 It is even more able to reflect the genuine roots of this kind of humanity, genuine human nature, to address this kind of political ideology, this pragmatic humanity. 181 00:38:54.620 --> 00:39:02.540 align:center line:-1 It is even more real, genuine, and original, so this generation of people in the Southwest wanted to emphasize this culture. 182 00:39:02.550 --> 00:39:14.340 align:center line:-1 Then, in Shanghai artists put more emphasis on original eastern philosophies. 183 00:39:14.350 --> 00:39:24.850 align:center line:-1 For example, Zhang Jianjun, Li Shan, and Yu Youhan’s paintings had circles and squares, but these circles and squares were not pure geometric shapes. 184 00:39:24.860 --> 00:39:35.500 align:center line:-1 The circles often had fur growing from them, or brushstrokes inside; they were a kind of fluid, living thing. 185 00:39:35.510 --> 00:39:49.550 align:center line:-1 This was like being and not being, engendering one another, this kind of idea, but it was transferred to something a bit like abstract painting, modern abstract painting, without being that kind of completely western abstract painting with geometric shapes. 186 00:39:49.560 --> 00:40:08.400 align:center line:-1 So, these kinds of cultural claims, different cultural claims, were very apparent in “rationalist painting.” So, this is also one reason we call it “rationalist painting.” 187 00:40:08.410 --> 00:40:21.480 align:center line:-1 It was not only a kind of philosophical contemplation, philosophical reflection, but at the same time, it also contained a kind of concrete culture, meaningful content, or a cultural value system, a cultural claim. 188 00:40:21.490 --> 00:40:42.560 align:center line:-1 Taking this and placing it in the context of’80s “cultural fever,” China’s modernization, and cultural discussions, we can see that, although it emphasized a kind of surrealism, it was actually also a very concrete cultural reflection. 189 00:40:42.570 --> 00:40:56.080 align:center line:-1 But within this, there was certainly also an element of idealism; its idealism came from a kind of loss, from a reflection on earlier tragedies. 190 00:40:56.090 --> 00:41:06.780 align:center line:-1 However, at the same time, this generation of young people had a kind of advancement, a reflection, a future, etc., this kind of... 191 00:41:06.790 --> 00:41:41.750 align:center line:-1 As for sacrifice, from their writings we can see at the time a lot of artists often used what today we see as rather grand concepts and language, etc., but what was expressed was one generation’s particular experience during the 1980s. 192 00:41:41.760 --> 00:42:00.320 align:center line:-1 So, I’d like to let Cheng Xiaoyu talk about that time, since in 1985 he created a piece called The East, which I mentioned earlier. 193 00:42:00.330 --> 00:42:20.240 align:center line:-1 At the time, I was an editor at Art Monthly magazine, which in 1985 and before 1985 was China’s only art publication. 194 00:42:20.250 --> 00:42:30.750 align:center line:-1 The government began publishing it back in 1952; it was the Central Committee Publicity Department’s China Artists Association’s publication. 195 00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:40.370 align:center line:-1 Beginning in 1985, [Art Monthly] indeed felt the influence of “reform,” “opening,” “cultural fever,” etc. 196 00:42:40.380 --> 00:42:49.000 align:center line:-1 On top of that, it had several young editors, including myself, so there was a change in appearance. 197 00:42:49.010 --> 00:43:04.570 align:center line:-1 In 1985, in the 10th issue of the magazine, I put Cheng Xiaoyu’s The East on the cover, using it as the theme painting for the cover. 198 00:43:04.580 --> 00:43:09.930 align:center line:-1 As a result, after the magazine came out, this set off a controversy. 199 00:43:09.940 --> 00:43:26.850 align:center line:-1 The head of China Artists Association called to criticize me. Art Monthly’s editor-in-chief also criticized me, blaming me for publishing this piece. 200 00:43:26.860 --> 00:43:39.320 align:center line:-1 Also, their interpretation was quite interesting, since in Cheng Xiaoyu’s piece, [the figures] have no facial features; a whole group of people with no facial features. 201 00:43:39.330 --> 00:43:45.390 align:center line:-1 They all have egg-shaped heads and faces, with the same posture. 202 00:43:45.400 --> 00:44:04.070 align:center line:-1 So, the head [of China Artists Association] said, “Is this implying that Chinese people are all a bunch of mindless drones, following blindly, a satire of Chinese reality? Is the extratextual meaning a satire of China’s leadership level?” 203 00:44:04.080 --> 00:44:18.090 align:center line:-1 So because of this I was blamed and criticized, and it had a definite influence on my work. 204 00:44:18.100 --> 00:44:42.420 align:center line:-1 Of course, in 1985 Cheng Xiaoyu’s The East and similar works were not an isolated phenomenon. 205 00:44:42.430 --> 00:44:50.780 align:center line:-1 There was also the “’85 New Space” exhibition at Zhejiang Fine Arts Institute. 206 00:44:50.790 --> 00:45:03.930 align:center line:-1 In it there was Wang Qiang’s installation-type work called [Adagio in the Opening of Second Movement,] Beethoven’s Symphony No. 5. 207 00:45:03.940 --> 00:45:15.560 align:center line:-1 Within the installation was a reproduction of a person, an emptied-out sculpture wearing clothing that looks a bit like a western suit, but [the person] doesn’t have a head. 208 00:45:15.570 --> 00:45:22.960 align:center line:-1 [Wang Qiang] reproduced the whole [body], but there’s no head. The hand holds a conductor’s baton, but it’s headless conducting. 209 00:45:22.970 --> 00:45:25.680 align:center line:-1 [Gao and Cheng laugh]. Headless conducting! 210 00:45:25.690 --> 00:45:35.880 align:center line:-1 After this exhibition was over, it received a lot of criticism from the government, including China Artists Association. 211 00:45:35.890 --> 00:45:45.170 align:center line:-1 I was in China Artists Association, [and at] Art Monthly, who also criticized this piece as headless conducting, as implying mindless leadership. 212 00:45:45.180 --> 00:46:03.620 align:center line:-1 So you can see that at the time, from the perspective of politics, ideological politics, you couldn’t say you didn’t know these things, and couldn’t say the artists were not subconsciously implying them. 213 00:46:03.630 --> 00:46:16.020 align:center line:-1 Maybe these things were implied, but in terms of interpretation, it was quite sensitive, which demonstrates China’s context at the time. 214 00:46:16.030 --> 00:46:29.240 align:center line:-1 In that context, the politicized context was still quite strong, but as for “rationalist painting,” I feel that in developing this kind of unique characteristic at the time, it still had a certain transcendence of ideology. 215 00:46:29.250 --> 00:46:30.630 align:center line:-1 Cheng: Right. 216 00:46:30.640 --> 00:46:42.700 align:center line:-1 Gao: It still emphasized a kind of cultural idea, philosophy, China’s entire environment, how to be able to move toward a kind of health, this kind of cultural construction, rational construction, rational reflection. 217 00:46:42.710 --> 00:46:52.070 align:center line:-1 Cheng: That’s right. These very early constructions, we were participants at that time, maybe without such an awareness afterward. 218 00:46:52.080 --> 00:47:00.810 align:center line:-1 At the time, it was just joining in. A door opened, and suddenly things you hadn’t been allowed to say before, you were now being allowed to say. 219 00:47:00.820 --> 00:47:18.640 align:center line:-1 Compared with today, I feel that back then what was really precious was that at least the mild criticism at the time was much better than struggling to find something to say like today. 220 00:47:18.650 --> 00:47:35.480 align:center line:-1 I myself was a part of it, and later paid attention to other things, such as some characteristics of rationalist painting [Gao Minglu] just mentioned, for example contemplation and the use of symbols. 221 00:47:35.490 --> 00:47:47.570 align:center line:-1 Looking back today, these things definitely seem a bit immature; these original things seem like they were giving illustration to philosophies, were acting as diagrams. 222 00:47:47.580 --> 00:47:52.660 align:center line:-1 But at the time, since [I] had something I wanted to say, I just said it first. 223 00:47:52.670 --> 00:48:01.000 align:center line:-1 Also, another thing is that we couldn’t be sure of the so-called quality, since in the arsenal there were several kinds of things. 224 00:48:01.010 --> 00:48:17.250 align:center line:-1 I took these things and wanted to say something that had been stifled for ages, for the several generations [Gao Minglu] mentioned earlier, including the liberation of thought, and later Anti-Liberalization, Anti-Spiritual Pollution—there were things I wanted to say. 225 00:48:17.260 --> 00:48:24.200 align:center line:-1 At that time, it gave you an environment to speak in, and so these things came out; all kinds of things were said. 226 00:48:24.210 --> 00:48:32.610 align:center line:-1 As for me, the phenomena [Gao Minglu] just mentioned, for me that was instinctual. 227 00:48:32.620 --> 00:48:39.330 align:center line:-1 When I was at university, I was really interested in surrealism, especially surrealism that had just come about within literature. 228 00:48:39.340 --> 00:48:50.580 align:center line:-1 Later on, a large number of artists puts its theory into practice. At the time, I was really interested in such things, and instinctually tried it out, painting... 229 00:48:50.590 --> 00:48:57.610 align:center line:-1 I really like Dali’s paintings—I still like them today—so this made me paint that kind of scene. 230 00:48:57.620 --> 00:49:12.520 align:center line:-1 Later I thought that wasn’t right, since if you imitate [Dali], it has no value. So, I quickly gave up; that was a nightmare, a Dali-style nightmare. 231 00:49:12.530 --> 00:49:22.770 align:center line:-1 Later, after I gave up, I returned to some of my own reflection, since though I’d been influenced [by surrealism], I also couldn’t paint like that, so it forced me to think of another way to paint. 232 00:49:22.780 --> 00:49:34.480 align:center line:-1 Just like Professor Gao mentioned, toward a person, concrete people and things, and this kind of idea, I had my own way of thinking. 233 00:49:34.490 --> 00:49:45.650 align:center line:-1 And it wasn’t just me, but a lot of other people; it emerged that the concept of a person was standardized, and [features] were dropped. 234 00:49:45.660 --> 00:49:53.480 align:center line:-1 Some particular moods, expressions, all the emotions, individuality—[the figures in these paintings] were not given these kinds of—how to put it?—personality [性格] traits. 235 00:49:53.490 --> 00:50:00.580 align:center line:-1 If they don’t have these things, [or] these things are vague, this vagueness creates a semantic multiple image. 236 00:50:00.590 --> 00:50:06.760 align:center line:-1 Oh? That’s the way I made people, since at the time paintings had to have people. 237 00:50:06.770 --> 00:50:19.990 align:center line:-1 The study of realism was in our arsenal, but that technique had already handicapped [our] next step in abstract reflection, so this technique just unconsciously let it go. 238 00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:33.650 align:center line:-1 And then there’s also the background, like Professor Gao just mentioned, from a concrete background, it was transformed into a vast and empty background, with a kind of common character. 239 00:50:33.660 --> 00:50:45.740 align:center line:-1 So, Professor Gao mentioned a universe. Since the universe is our largest background at present—there’s nothing bigger—if the concrete background is standardized, this phenomenon appears. 240 00:50:45.750 --> 00:50:59.510 align:center line:-1 At the time, was there or was there not a pursuit?—I don’t dare say—but as a result of half-unconscious behavior, later you took it out of theory and made a conclusion in this universal form. 241 00:50:59.520 --> 00:51:14.740 align:center line:-1 At the time, we didn’t think of it—we thought of a universe, but didn’t overthink—first was to standardize it, take the concrete situation and form, transfer it, and it became like this. Basically it's that kind of thing. 242 00:51:14.750 --> 00:51:32.790 align:center line:-1 Gao: Right. You’ve said it very well, that is, “rationalist painting,” this kind of painting phenomenon emerged in the mid-’80s, after years of reflection on the Cultural Revolution. 243 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:57.320 align:center line:-1 I feel that to a certain extent, it is Chinese contemporary art moving toward its own language, toward its own attempts, or it is a turning point. 244 00:51:57.330 --> 00:52:06.990 align:center line:-1 As Mr. Cheng just said, you still had to use the original arsenal, and while that was limiting, some had to head toward a contemporary reflection, a contemporary idea, had to— 245 00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:08.570 align:center line:-1 Cheng: Use what you have. 246 00:52:08.580 --> 00:52:25.700 align:center line:-1 Gao: Right! Use what you have, but I think because [rationalist painting] had a kind of common consensus, a kind of symbiosis, or some similar feature—anyway, in the end you can see some things I feel are worth us pondering; 247 00:52:25.710 --> 00:52:34.280 align:center line:-1 they are worth us thinking about, such as how it has a balance between a realistic form and an abstract idea. 248 00:52:34.290 --> 00:52:42.090 align:center line:-1 Its balance has a use of both intuition and rationality; a dialogue between surrealism and realism, etc. 249 00:52:42.100 --> 00:53:04.360 align:center line:-1 I feel that today we must look back and summarize, and what’s more, actually, contemporary art from [then until now], 20 or 30 years [later], still has this kind of rationalist painting; I’ve called it the “new rationalist painting” phenomenon. 250 00:53:04.370 --> 00:53:08.040 align:center line:-1