M., Gilbert, April 9, 1976, tape 1, side 1

Gilbert M.: South Carolina.

Peter Gottlieb: South Carolina. Gilbert M.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Do you know what part of South Carolina? Gilbert M.: Williamsburg.

Gottlieb: Williams- Gilbert M.: Williamsburg, South Carolina.

Gottlieb: Did your grandparents come from the same place?

Gilbert M.: I don't know where my grandparents come from, now, you got me. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: All I can tell you, my dad and my mother was born in Williamsburg, South Carolina, 25 miles from Columbia, South Carolina. Gottlieb: Mm.

Gottlieb: So kind of in the western part of the state?

Gilbert M.: [simultaneous talking] That's east.

Gottlieb: Okay. I don't know that geography that well. Did you ever know your grandparents at all?

Gilbert M.: I know-- Yeah, I know my grandmother before she died. But my grandfather, I've seen him a couple of times, but for me to know him personal, I don't.

Gottlieb: What kind of work did your father do?

Gilbert M.: Oh, my father. He's a farmer.

Gottlieb: Did he have his own place or was he renting--

Gilbert M.: [simultaneous talking] Nope. Nope. He rent for a while. And then he sharecrop for a while.

Gottlieb: What's the difference between renting and sharecropping?

Gilbert M.: Well, if you rent-- while you rent, you pay the rent for the land. And what you raise on the farm, what you got and you rent-- You rent it, that's yours. Sharecropping. I do the work. You give me the fertilizer and stuff to plant the stuff, and I do all the work, but you get half. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: And it's my land. Is that right? Gilbert M.: Yeah.

Gilbert M.: It's your land. But you still get half of it. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Was he a farmer all his life?

Gilbert M.: Far as I know when-- I would say in July, when, uh. When they-- What they call-- by this time to stop gathering, he used to go out and would do the public work, for dollar a day, dollar a quarter day, was the limit. Gottlieb: Mm. What kind of-- Gilbert M.: 12 hours a day.

Gottlieb: What-- What kind of public work was it?

Gilbert M.: Sawmill. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: Railroad. But I don't think my dad work on the railroad-- He always worked around the sawmill.

Gottlieb: Did he have to go away from home to do this, or was--

Gilbert M.: Yep. When he goes-- come home every two weeks.

Gottlieb: Hm. Did anybody else live with your parents and your-- and you? Any other relatives, uncles and aunts? Gilbert M.: Nope. No. Never. Gottlieb: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

Gilbert M.: I have two brothers living now. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: And one sister. But all of them were way younger than I am. I'm the oldest, you know.

Gottlieb: You're the oldest child. Uh huh.

Gilbert M.: See, my mother died when I was six months old they tell me. I don't know. That's what they tell me. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: I have a brother s'posed to be older than I am. But he died, they tell me, when he about 6, 7 months old. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. Gilbert M.: And then when I was born, they tell me, my mother died when I was six months old. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: Quite natural. I don't know my mother. Gottlieb: Sure.

Gottlieb: Who-- Did your father have some help in bringing up the-- his children?

Gilbert M.: Well, was nobody but me, and his aunt helped him. And then the lady they pulled get married and she hoped, but they never did got married. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: Then when he did got married, I had a-- pretty good little s-- But I stay with my-- His aunt. His mother's sister. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: For a while. I got tired of the farm. Gottlieb: Mhm. Gilbert M.: And I run away. Gottlieb: You did? Gilbert M.: 1913.

Gottlieb: How old were you at that time?

Gilbert M.: Well, I born 1901 September the 23rd.

Gottlieb: So maybe 12 years old.

Gilbert M.: And I run away, I can, he got-- I run away the Monday morning after the second Sunday in March 1913. And I got a job carrying water in Rocky Mount, North Carolina, for $0.25 a day. 12 hours a day.

Gottlieb: Well, what kind of place was it you were working at?

Gilbert M.: It was Land Coastline Railroad.

Gottlieb: Oh, it was on the railroad.

Gilbert M.: I was a water boy for the people who were working because I wasn't big enough to do the work what they were doing. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Was it a kind of a section gang maintaining the road?

Gilbert M.: Yeah. Section gang.

Gottlieb: How long did how long did you stay on that job?

Gilbert M.: I stayed until 1913. I leave. I leave, I quit in 1913 and I went to start [??] in 1915 and I run away. And 1917, no-- 1918. 1917 I went to Detroit. I worked for Henry Ford about 3 or 4 months. Then they start asking me about where was my draft card. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: I didn't have nothing. And I leave Henry Ford and I come to Buffalo and I got a job over in Lackawanna, right across the bridge from Buffalo, the Bethlehem Steel Company. And May 15, 1918, when they register from 18 to 45, they got behind me again. Gottlieb: Mhm. Gilbert M.: And I leave and I went back home. Gottlieb: Mhm. Gilbert M.: I went back home to my dad. I didn't-- I never been-- I didn't have no draft card. And, uh, well, he was still sharecropper. And I went back and I worked with him on the farm. And I was assigned 1918, November 11th. And I stayed home until [??] December, after we got out of the war [??]. Then I leave.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Is that the first time you've been home since you left-- ran away?

Gilbert M.: Yep. Yep. I was scared to go back. Gottlieb: Why? Gilbert M.: Well, I don't know. My daddy wasn't-- left when I was 13 [??]. Gottlieb: Yeah. Uh-- Gilbert M.: Man, when I leave, 19- No, December, I leave 1918. I was still-- I was assignmed November 11th. I leave in December, I come back to Richmond. I was in Richmond and I got a job with _____[??] for that. I do-- work, detect, callin people. I make a dollar and a quarter a day. And I stayed there until 1919 in April. And I went back to Buffalo just to ask [??]. And I stayed there til 1920, October, the 31st, October the 30th, and I leave from Buffalo, I quit. And I had a uncle living in-- over in Rankin. And I stopped by to see him. And he said to me the way to get a job. And he said all about, you know, when I got a job and I started working over Carrie Furnace. I worked-- that was 1920. I worked-- the first day I worked with October the 31st was Halloween. When I went to work at 7:00 and I got off 5:30 the next morning. And I stayed over there til 1927. Then they transferred me to move right back to the job I had. Every time I go to work with about 3 or 4 hours, my nose would bleed.

Gottlieb: Well, what kind of work were you doing?

Gilbert M.: I work in uh, dumpin coke for blast furnace. And the doctor transferred me over to Homestead. And that's where I been, in Homestead until I retired.

Gottlieb: You said you ran away because you got tired of farm work.

Gilbert M.: Yeah, I got tired of work. I ain't gettin' nothin'. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: You're pretty young, though, to be out on your own, weren't you? Gilbert M.: Well I did.

Gilbert M.: Well I did. You ask a question, I'll tell you the truth. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: Twenty-five cents a day. How long with that, I think I saved up what I had and there's some of these people saving today. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: Making $40 or $50 for eight hours. Gottlieb: Mhm.

Gottlieb: Was it just the fact that you weren't earning any money on the farm that made you over--

Gilbert M.: I didn't get nothing, 'cept to eat and work. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: Some clothes. And it wasn't the best of clothes. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Why do you think you had, uh, you had gotten the idea that you wanted to do a little bit better. Were there a lot of boys who were going away from home at that time?

Gilbert M.: When I leave, I leave by myself. Nobody but me. I was plowing. I took my dad mule, plowed down to the end of the field and took them loose from the plower, tied the tree, way we wouldn't get hanged up, and took off. I had nine pennies in a bulldog bag and that's all I had.

Gottlieb: You hadn't told your father anything about it?

Gilbert M.: Nope. Hell naw. I'm gonna run away, you think I'm gonna tell him what, I'm gonna run away. No, you're not--

Gottlieb: How did you know where you could go to find work?

Gilbert M.: I didn't know where I was going. I just-- wanted to get-- Get away from home. Get off the farm. I wasn't gettin' nothing. Quite naturally, I'm getting three meals a day now, don't get me wrong. I was gettin plenty to eat, but 5:00 in the morning, you got to get up and go to work. The young boys, some of them are out. Well, it always good and bad. Some of the other boys, their parents get-- let them go for a baseball game on Saturday. Come up the wrong way and go to show for them. I had to stay home and work because my dad hadn't got married again. Yeah, I had do all the work because I didn't have no sisters then. Was nobody but me.

Gottlieb: You were the only child.

Gilbert M.: Yeah, but after my dad got married the second time, then the second wife had a child. That brother of mine. Now he's in Connecticut. I haven't seen him since 1947.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. He's your half brother? Gilbert M.: Yeah.

Gilbert M.: New brother by father. Gottlieb: Mhm. Gilbert M.: I have a sister in Charleston, South Carolina. We half brothers by father. I have a brother in Richmond, Virginia. We half brothers by father. But that's it. I don't have nobody on my mother's side with me. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Um, did you get along with your father pretty well? Gilbert M.: Yeah, sure, we got along. Gottlieb: Do you-- do you think he was pretty upset when you left?

Gilbert M.: I don't know. And I didn't write, and I didn't go back.

Gottlieb: You went back eventually. In 1918. Gilbert M.: Yep. Gottlieb: He ever say anything about you going away from home?

Gilbert M.: He just ask me why. Well, I'd save money. I had money when I went back. And I didn't smoke, I didn't drink. I had about $1,100 when I went back. Gottlieb: Wow. Gilbert M.: And that was big money back down on the farm. Gottlieb: Yeah, right. Gilbert M.: But my father bully [??]

Gottlieb: Oh, is that right?

Gilbert M.: A couple of things, gimme $50, I got myself-- paid my way in 'cause back then-- then you didn't never get too old or mama father slap you down, if you give 'em one of them smart answers.

Gottlieb: No matter how old you were.

Gilbert M.: Yeah, I used to be married and living. When they tell you, Shut up, you better listen.

Gottlieb: Was your father a churchgoing man? Gilbert M.: Yep. Gottlieb: So you were brought up in the church down there. Gilbert M.: Yep. Gottlieb: The Baptist? Gilbert M.: Yep.

Gilbert M.: No, no church. I tell you, church where I was baptized, 1912, St. Matthew Baptist Church. Gottlieb: Mhm. Gilbert M.: My dad was the first pew [??], you know, in the church.

Gottlieb: Mm hm. So he was always very strict about going to church.

Gilbert M.: Oh yeah. When he go to church, we go. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: How did you know-- How did you find this job in North Carolina? Being a water boy.

Gilbert M.: I never met before-- man that asked [??] him. He ask me where I was from and I told him, I asked him, I said, could I get a job doing something. And he said, kid, what could you do, that's what he called me, he said kid. I said, I can work. He said, Well, you be here in the morning. 'Cause what do you-- I said, I ain't got no place to stay. I slept on the back of a station on the platform that night. The next morning I met him. He took me out and told the foreman, said, I got a young kid here. He want a job. He looked at him and he said, What could he do? I couldn't work. He said, best you can do is carry 'bout four quarts of water. You know, I take the money you're going to get for water. And then I got this old man, and he-- he's the one taught me how to work. And when I worked that day, and he just told me all-- the name was Charlie Cooper. He took me home with him that evening and he give me a little-- He had a little-- ______[??] a little shed room on him and he let me sleep there. Now his wife, she give me something to eat. And when I got paid $0.25 a day, you know that money a whole lot. Gottlieb: Sure. Gilbert M.: But I paid him outta that and he didn't take it all, but he take some and he leave me with some. It were like-- He took-- took me, trained me, and I learned how to swipe [??] and I learned how to do work like girls do. Then I quit. And I went to Detroit.

Gottlieb: So you-- you worked there for about, uh, 4 or 5 years?

Gilbert M.: 1913.

Gottlieb: 1917. That's when you--

Gilbert M.: __________[??] I went to Detroit. Gottlieb: Hm. How-- Gilbert M.: And 1918, when we got back, got home and got the registration card, I quit it, uh, and I come to Buffalo, and I go work for the Bethlehem Steel Company. In Lackawanna.

Gottlieb: Had somebody told you about Detroit when you went up there. Gilbert M.: No. Gottlieb: Had you heard anything about--

Gilbert M.: Yep. I heard-- I hear older folks talkin'. Along then, the old folks-- the older people didn't talk with the young people, not so much. The only thing you can get, you have to listen. But you better not let them catch you. Just eavesdroppin'. Gottlieb: Mhm. Gilbert M.: That's how I find it.

Gottlieb: There were other men who had worked up there and come back?

Gilbert M.: Yeah. And I know, one old man, he had two sons working up there.

Gottlieb: Uh, did you know anybody up in Detroit when you went up there? Have any relatives?

Gilbert M.: I did-- This man that had them two boys over there, I-- I heard him call the name. He called his son name. Well, when I went to Detroit and I inquired, I found 'em.

Gottlieb: Hm. How did you get the job at Ford's when you were there?

Gilbert M.: Oh, the, when the boys took me down to the employment office.

Gottlieb: Mhm. And did you live with them while you were there? Gilbert M.: No. Gottlieb: Were you staying at a boarding house? Gilbert M.: Yep. Gottlieb: Were there places where you might have been able to find people from certain parts of the South if you would wanted to, like, uh-- Gilbert M.: Well, I--

Gilbert M.: --met a whole lot of people, but I never did associate with many people. When I was young, I didn't drink, I didn't smoke. And all I do, I went to work. When I come back from work, I put in my room and stayed in the room.

Gottlieb: Did you ever meet anybody from the same part of South Carolina you were from? Gilbert M.: [simultaneous talking] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Gilbert M.: I met him in Buffalo, but not in Detroit.

Gottlieb: Huh. What kind of work did they give you to do at Ford's?

Gilbert M.: I used to polish them Model-- T-Model Fords. Back then Copperhead Radiator cap brass. I used to-- I used to polish them.

Gottlieb: Do you remember how much they were paying you back at that time?

Gilbert M.: $2. Gottlieb: A day? Gilbert M.: Yeah. That was big money.

Gottlieb: Wasn't Fords the place where they were supposed to pay you $5 a day? Gilbert M.: Not then. Gottlieb: $2 a day.

Gilbert M.: The only way you-- You could make any money. Of course I make some money after I was there for about a month or maybe two months. They put me on the job doing the same-- The same work. But it was piecework. You had to do so much. And then you fill that, if you want to work over then you make extra money. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: Piece work. Gottlieb: What-- Gilbert M.: They call it then, they call it tonnage. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: When you started getting trouble by the draft, why did you decide to go to Buffalo? Of all the-- all the places you could've gone.

Gilbert M.: [simultaneous talking] 'Cause I didn't want to go to jail if you want to know it. Gottlieb: Yeah, but-- Gilbert M.: I knew I hadn't registered. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: And when they got after me in Buffalo then I went home.

Gottlieb: Well, let's-- Let's say a person who didn't know about your life, they might think you could have gone anywhere from Detroit. Why did you decide to go to Buffalo?

Gilbert M.: I never registered. Gottlieb: Mhm. Gilbert M.: I never registered. Right. When I went to Buffalo, then when they start, I went home. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: And when I went home. When I went home, this man that my dad was a sharecropper with, he was the president of the bank. And he register-- He had me register. Then he fixed up the draft and I went back on the farm and worked with my dad til after the war was over. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did you know anybody in Buffalo when you moved?

Gilbert M.: No, when I went to-- I met some people. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: Just like you do in the town. You can meet people and meet-- and make friends with them. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Had you heard-- had you heard people talking about Buffalo the way you had heard 'em talking about Detroit?

Gilbert M.: Oh I heard 'em talk about a lot of places. Just like today. One state I never been in, but I've always-- Lord let me live, I wanted to go for it now. California, I never been to California, but the way people-- I listen to people subscribe it, I imagined what it would be if I was going to California. You can see it on TV and different places. You can get a hotel on different streets. I when-- I arrived to get there, I could look up and look for them particular places. Gottlieb: Yeah, right.

Gottlieb: Um, and so you went to work for Bethlehem Steel when you were there? Gilbert M.: Yeah. Gottlieb: What kind of work did they give you to do?

Gilbert M.: Oh, well, very, very good. It was labor, and, uh, I work about three weeks. Well, you can call it labor, labor gang. Then they called it a Bull gang. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: And, uh, when I leave, I had a good job when I leave, and I was with-- Fella was a blacksmith. He was colored, but he was-- He said he was Bull gang. And they sent me over and I work with him. But I made some money then, and I makin' $12 for 6 to 6:30. I'm making $11.77 a night.

Gottlieb: Just helping him.

Gilbert M.: Yeah, I like this help. When they got behind me, with that draft, I leave.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Somebody come down to see you about that or something?

Gilbert M.: The foreman come by with my registration card. We-- I registered-- with my draft card. I said, I told them why, I said I registered down South. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: He said ____[??], I said no, at home. I ain't never register. He go, we want you in 24 hours and I quit.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. And so you left within one day. How long had you-- how long had you stayed in Buffalo when they started getting on you about that? Do you remember?

Gilbert M.: I stayed in Buffalo 'bout-- I was there about six months. I went Buffalo in February 1918. And I leave-- it wasn't six months. I went in February and I leave in July. I leave right after the registration, May the 15th, 1918 from 18 to 45. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: I leave three weeks after that. Gottlieb: And when-- Gilbert M.: They registerin' from 18 to 45.

Gottlieb: And when-- but when you went back down South, you did register. Gilbert M.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Uh huh. And-- But you were never called? Gilbert M.: No.

Gilbert M.: 'Cause I went and stay on the farm til the war was over. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: And then at that time, you were just helping your father?

Gilbert M.: I was-- Yeah, I was on the farm. But he share cropped with this white man. President of the bank. Gottlieb: Yeah. Mm. Gilbert M.: And he owned about two, three thousand acres of land. He just had people just sharing crops. Some was sharing crop, and some was renting. All of them wasn't sharing crop, now, some was renting.

Gottlieb: How many-- How many acres was your father farming at that time?

Gilbert M.: 25. Gottlieb: 25?

Gottlieb: And he was raising cotton, mainly? Gilbert M.: Hm? Gottlieb: He was raising cotton?

Gilbert M.: Yeah, he was raising cotton. Corn. Sweet potato. Tobacco and peas.

Gottlieb: Do you remember about how many bales of cotton he would be able to make on 25--

Gilbert M.: I could you numbers for what we made, 1917, 'cause I was home. But I know well as it was, it was-- brought out about-- Breed of cotton called a long steeple. Long staple cotton. Before we get two bale cotton per acre.

Gottlieb: Mm hm. Was he ever able to make anything? Gilbert M.: Who? Gottlieb: Your father? I mean, get ahead any?

Gilbert M.: Yeah, he wanted to.

Gottlieb: Yeah, I want.

Gilbert M.: Well, them people down there back then, you pay, but you never pay out of debt. When you go to pay, all the way-- he all the way to the-- Some of them was lucky enough to pay out. But they didn't have nothing left to leave when they pay out. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: But the moreso would leave in debt. He patch on the show [??] so he almost made it. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: Next year you'll make it.

Gottlieb: And they never did. Hm. So your father stayed in debt pretty much from year to year?

Gilbert M.: Well, he did got out of debt once, or twice. He got out of debt. Then he started raising cattle for himself. But he still was farming. All the cows and hogs he had and his horses and stuff, they was his. He bought her and paid for her. But so far as [??] money, I don't think he ever-- But he was accumulating no bank account. Amount or nothin. Far as I know. I don't know.

Gottlieb: Did he work right up till the time he died, or was he ever able to--

Gilbert M.: Not-- 19-7, I can't tell you. 'Cause I, the last time I talked to my father was 1927, and I came back. I went on down South and he-- talk with him when I leave, then I didn't go back. When I went back home, I didn't-- I leave 19-- 1927. And I didn't go back home when we were-- 57. Well, when I went back home in 1957, they're telling me my father died 1932. So now I can't give you no history on what happened. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Had you been able to keep in touch? I don't remember if you told me this before or not, if you'd been able to keep in touch with your-- With your father when you had been in North Carolina and Detroit.

Gilbert M.: Nope, I didn't ever-- I didn't write. I didn't write.

Gottlieb: After you left there--

Gilbert M.: When I leave, 1927, I didn't write.

Gottlieb: You didn't-- What about between 1920 and 1927?

Gilbert M.: Yeah, surely I didn't write nobody. 1927 there was some misunderstanding between me and Dad. And that would-- And I didn't write-- ever-- I even have some relation right up there. But I think all of them dead. Find out from friends. They'd go home. They'd tell them where, give 'em my address. When I get a letter, I moved. I didn't want to be bothered. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: When you left the-- South Carolina again in April 1919, I think you said it was?

Gilbert M.: Well, even-- well, even-- I went home and I was assigned 1918, November the 11th. Gottlieb: That's right. Gilbert M.: And I leave in February, 1918.

Gottlieb: Okay. You went back to Buffalo? Gilbert M.: Yep. Gottlieb: Were you able to get that same job back? Gilbert M.: Nope.

Gilbert M.: Nope. I didn't get that job back.

Gottlieb: Did they remember you from up there? Gilbert M.: Yeah. Gottlieb: They gave you your job.

Gilbert M.: I, I got another job and I stayed there, I worked there from 1920. I leave Buffalo and quit 1920, October the 30th. Gottlieb: Right. Gilbert M.: And I came-- got off the train in Braddock, October the 31st, 12:00 in the night to find my uncle. He was living in Rankin. I found him.

Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Was your-- Your father's brother? Your brother? Gilbert M.: No. Gottlieb: Your mother's brother?

Gilbert M.: No, my mother's brother.

Gottlieb: How long had he been up there?

Gilbert M.: Well, he's been up there-- He came up there in 1917.

Gottlieb: Did-- had he lived right around the same part of South Carolina, that--

Gilbert M.: Oh, right-- sure, call, just [??].

Gottlieb: Had-- had you had any plans to to come to Homestead and stay when you left Buffalo-- Gilbert M.: No. Gottlieb: --or were you just traveling?

Gilbert M.: When I came here, I came to stay three weeks.

Gottlieb: And where were you gonna go after that? Did you have any-- Gilbert M.: I did--

Gilbert M.: I did-- I had a little money. I stopped by to see my uncle. I had it in mind to go back down South. And after I got a job and stay, I didn't go. 1920 October 31st.

Gottlieb: Was there any particular reason you had quit your job in Buffalo?

Gilbert M.: No, I just got tired.

Gottlieb: You didn't like the work? Gilbert M.: Nope.

Gilbert M.: I like the work. Well, you're young. You work for it. You get your mind. I'm going to work. This is the place. That's the way it was. Gottlieb: Mhm.

Gottlieb: Are your plans to go back South to farm? Gilbert M.: Nope. Gottlieb: Did you--

Gilbert M.: I had a girlfriend down there. I said I was going down to see her and I never did go.

Gottlieb: So it was pretty much by accident, you ended up staying here? Gilbert M.: Yep. Gottlieb: When you were working--

Gilbert M.: [simultaneous talking] And I went back-- I did go home in 22, and I got married, when my wife was-- 23, I went home, and I got married and then my wife come up here.

Gottlieb: Had you known her since-- Since you were a small boy-- Gilbert M.: No. Had you met her when you were back in South-- in 1918?

Gilbert M.: Oh, back long, then. Back long in then time, why, I would just-- See what it cost you now go then to Philadelphia. One way. We used to-- guys would go home, go down South and back for $27 round trip. Now you can hardly go from to Washington, D.C. for $25. Gottlieb: Yeah, that's right. Gilbert M.: And yeah, so we used to go and then-- and then-- when in the summertime you get six month leave of absence from the steelworkers. Gottlieb: Six months? Gilbert M.: Leave of absence, then you can go to work with any contractor that you can make more money what you makin' a steelworker. But then that's-- when that six months is up. You going back to the steelworks and going to work. You don't have to be reexamined no more. You just going back. Go back a couple of days before the sixth month-- you're going back to work. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: Along then, they wasn't paying, but steelworker pays $3.35 then for 12 hours. Well, they said ten hours, they didn't have no union then. You go to work 7:00 in the morning til you get off 5:30 but then the foreman going to work, 7:00. He'd wake up maybe ten minutes, 25 or 25 minutes after 4:30 before. And he said, everybody work overtime. And if you want your job, you have to stay and work. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: But after the union come in, it's a different story. Gottlieb: Yeah, right. Gilbert M.: They had to come around and ask you, did you want to work? Just like it is now. It was back then.

Gottlieb: He said it. You did it.

Gilbert M.: And if you-- see, I knew. And maybe 5 or 6, ten more workers under the same foreman. And you, the oldest man. And you know that-- you know what the job was. And he tells you, he said, Tell me, there was-- 3 or 4 of us say. You goin' to work with him today and you-- maybe you don't like me and start with. Well, we get out on the job and maybe you don't like me. You said, Well, what's wrong with you, saying, Well, how come you ain't doing this and you fire me? Well, there ain't no need for me to go to the foreman because you fired me. I'm fired. I'm fired.

Gottlieb: Hadn't they started to-- tried to start a union around 1919? They had a big strike.

Gilbert M.: Yeah, 1919. But I wasn't here. 1919, they had a strike, what they called a Hunky strike. Gottlieb: Oh, yeah? Gilbert M.: Well, a lot of colored Philadelphians was head chairman and foreman. Well, Hunky-- that wasn't actually what you call it. They went and formed a line and all the colored come out with them on the strike. They come out of one gate and the coloreds were dumb enough. They come on up on the corner and the whites, they hunkies, they went round to the other gate and went back in the middle, went on to work and got the job.

Gottlieb: While the Blacks stayed out?

Gilbert M.: Yeah. Well they went back. When they went back they didn't get the job back they had.

Gottlieb: They got worse jobs. Gilbert M.: Yeah.

Gilbert M.: The men went back in labor. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: We were working toilets before, but I wasn't here then. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: I'm only speaking of what I was told. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Gilbert M.: But that was 1919. I didn't come here til 1920. Gottlieb: Right.

Gottlieb: You had been in Buffalo, though, at that time. Had they had to strike at Buffalo?

Gilbert M.: Never there.

Gottlieb: When you were staying, when you began to work at the Carrie Furnaces, were you living with your uncle? You stayin' with him? Gilbert M.: Yeah. Gottlieb: And you stayed there-- Did you tell me until 1927?

Gilbert M.: I stayed at my uncle two weeks. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: And I got me a room, an apartment of my own. Which it was in the same building. He had his-- he had his own apartment. I had mine.

Gottlieb: And that was over in Rankin?

Gilbert M.: Yeah, on Middle Street.

Gottlieb: What did you think of Rankin? What did you think of Homestead when you first came here as compared to the other places you had seen?

Gilbert M.: Well, I'll tell you. I don't know. You put the both in the bag together. I don't know which one would come out first. I think I liked it over in Rankin better and I like Carrie Furnace better, but on account of where-- the job I had, and I used-- my nose would bleed, I had to-- about every other night I got to go to hospital when they transferred me from Rankin over to Homestead. And I know, thank God, I knock on wood. At the time I was transferred, I never had a hemorrhage until-- I don't know-- What I don't think I'd be able to have a hemorrhage when I go to hospital. I never had another hemorrhage til after I come out on pension. Gottlieb: Mhm. Gilbert M.: The doctor ask me, did I wanted to live. I said, may [??], he said, I'll get you a job. And then he got me a job on the rail-- working the rail, on the railroad right here for the US Steel.

Gottlieb: Huh. In the mill yard? Gilbert M.: Yeah.

Gilbert M.: And I never had a hemorrhage until after they transfer me to Carrie Furnace. I never had another hemorrhage. And then after I come out on pension in 67.

Gottlieb: You said you were loading coke in the blast furnaces over there?

Gilbert M.: No. See there, you bring the cars up to them gun doors. Well, you had to dump them car in a bin and then the conveyor take it up to the furnace.

Gottlieb: What do you think it was about the job that made your nose bleed? Gilbert M.: I don't know.

Gilbert M.: Now, that's something-- I can't answer that.

Gottlieb: Was it-- was it heavy work?

Gilbert M.: No, I didn't have a shoulder-- all I do open the door and take a sledgehammer and hit on the side and all let it drop. Then I close the door. Then I wait and sit there. The engine-- engine come up and make the shift, take the empties out and put the load on. Now, what caused it? I couldn't tell you that. If you asked me that, I can't answer. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: What kind of job did you have to perform on the railroad over here in Homestead?

Gilbert M.: Oh, I just use a burning torch for 30, 33 years. One-- acetylene torch, you know one of them? You ever seen one?

Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Uh-huh. Yeah, but if you-- But if you told me that you used a torch, I still wouldn't have very good idea of what kind of job you had to do with it.

Gilbert M.: I cut real plates and anything they wanted to cut done to use on railroad.

Gottlieb: So you weren't working in any specific department. You would move around from one place to--

Gilbert M.: No, that's one department. Strictly one department.

Gottlieb: And you stayed that-- right there for the rest of your career with them. Gilbert M.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Mhm. Did you move over to Homestead when you got this other job, or did you stay in Rankin?

Gilbert M.: I moved home.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me about the places where you've lived since you've been here? The different addresses.

Gilbert M.: I live 535 Dixon Street. I live 504 alley-- alleyway on Dixon Street. I live three-twenty--what was my number? Three-twenty, 329, one of the row houses, and I live on Third Avenue. I can't remember that number, but when I moved from 535 Dixon Street. Back then, that was 964. We live in Glen Hazel, was it-- Unidentified speaker: 962. Gilbert M.: 9-- Then I moved over to Glen Hazel in the project, 962 Broadway Yard [??]. Then when we move out of the project, we move on 120 West 13th. And when I move from West 13, I move here. I've been here ever since.

Gottlieb: You lived in a lot of different places.

Gilbert M.: Well, I paid-- I paid the rent through every place I've been. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Did you ever want to own a home in Homestead?

Gilbert M.: No. Wasn't no way you're gonna get me one of those one. Tax too much [??].

Gottlieb: Were you a good friend of Mr. Middleton's for many years before you--

Gilbert M.: Were-- We moved. We project-- Well, when I moved from the project in 1954. I move in on 120 West 13th. He was living on the-- on the first floor and I live upstairs on the second floor and we stay there together until we move here. Gottlieb: Mm. Gilbert M.: And when he move in that house, I move in this one. We-- We've been together ever since. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Did you know him before you lived at West 13th Street?

Gilbert M.: Well, he-- I didn't know who-- he relation to my wife who died, but I didn't know him too personal.

Gottlieb: Mhm. When did your first wife die?

Gilbert M.: My first wife died in 17. Because she didn't live but a month.

Gottlieb: Oh, you didn't tell me about her.

Gilbert M.: Well, I ain't got nothing I can tell you. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: I can't tell you nothing about her.

Gottlieb: You were just married for one month.

Gilbert M.: We got married June the 17th. She died July the 17th.

Gottlieb: Is that when you were in Detroit, or?

Gilbert M.: Yeah, I went home, you know, 'cause my dad had decided. And her dad. Gottlieb: Oh, uh-huh. Gottlieb: Understand?

Gottlieb: Yeah, was-- she was from the same part of South Carolina.

Gilbert M.: Yep. We went to school together. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Was she living in Detroit with you?

Gilbert M.: [simultaneous talking] Nope. Don't care [??]-- How's she gonna live? And we married in 17. Me and my wife never slept in a bed together a damn night after we got married.

Gottlieb: What, did you go back to Detroit then?

Gilbert M.: No, I was in Virginia then. 1917. Gottlieb: Oh. Gilbert M.: That's why I didn't bring that in because I can't get no history on it.

Gilbert M.: Because she died in childbirth. Gottlieb: Yeah. That's true. Gilbert M.: I got one of the boys living out in Petersburg, Virginia, and one got killed about 3 or 4 years ago in Richmond. So I can't give you a whole lot of history about that.

Gottlieb: So you've been married three times? Gilbert M.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gilbert M.: I know why I been married. My wife married me for-- to make me work. Unidentified speaker [wife?]: [unintelligible] Gilbert M.: Yeah, baby. If I don't work, how are you gonna live? Huh? I mean, we young. We were much younger then.

Gottlieb: You married your second wife in-- tell me, 1922? Gilbert M.: No. 23. Gottlieb: 23.

Gilbert M.: Married her from 1940 or 42. I think 42, we were married. 51, 7 [??]. I don't know.

Gottlieb: Did your second wife die as well?

Gilbert M.: Yeah, she died 535 Dixon Street right down below the project. I ain't killin' her, though.

Gottlieb: Did you like Homestead better than the other places you had lived in the north? Better than Detroit, Better than Buffalo?

Gilbert M.: I think so. Gottlieb: Why? Gilbert M.: Um, because I have spend all-- the biggest of my life here Homestead. Gottlieb: Mhm. Do you know-- Gilbert M.: Where could I go today and walk down the street? I work in Richmond, Virginia. I work in Buffalo. I work in Detroit. And then when I was floating around, I worked-- when I was workin' for the Atlantic Coast line. Of course, you weren't stationary. You go to Savannah, Georgia. You maybe be there for a week or two weeks. You don't know nobody. You just move in and move out. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: Now, let's say Detroit, Richmond, Virginia and Buffalo. Let's say, Lackawanna. Where could I walk -- go today, in either one of those three places, and walk down to a furniture store and say, I want a TV. I ain't got no money. I'll make the payment.

Gottlieb: You could do that here?

Gilbert M.: I would-- I could get on the phone and call and say, I want a TV. How much is this? And my wife said she-- I said, well, the wife would come down and look at it. If she like it, I can't make no payment. I send this down there. You can get it. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: Now where can I do that anywhere else? Why-- Where I was born and raised, I couldn't go down there and buy a book of matches on credit. Now, why shouldn't I call this block from 1927 to 76, Right? How many years is that?

Gottlieb: 1927 to 76-- 39?

Gilbert M.: Oh, man, you better go to school. Gottlieb: 49. Gilbert M.: Take 20 from 75, from 75. Gottlieb: That's 55. Gilbert M.: Take 20 from 75. Leave 55. Gottlieb: Right. That's what I

Gottlieb: said. 55.

Gilbert M.: Now I'll be here in Homestead if I-- God, let me-- God, let me live, this coming October, be 56 years. Gottlieb: 56 years. Gilbert M.: And that could be all of my life.

Gottlieb: That's right. What I meant to ask was, what did you think of it when you first came here and was living here?

Gilbert M.: Well, now that's the million dollar question. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: When you young, you brain ain't right. Do you want to stay here, do you want to go there. And you got-- you going [??] to make up your mind, which way-- whether you want to leave or whether you want to stay. And if you just keep running when you wind up, you'll wind up as a bum. When I had in my mind, I said, If the Lord ever let me live, I wasn't gonna steal. I'm gonna work on this living. I get a job, Imma keep it. And if I get married and my wife have any children and something happen and me and my wife can't get along, I'd never stand to see another man raise my children. And it never happened. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gilbert M.: If I don't have nothing but bread and water, I give to the children have bread and water but don't ________[??].

Gottlieb: So Homestead was just a place where you finally decided you were gonna stop moving around.

Gilbert M.: I stayed and stayed-- three weeks and three weeks end up-- I was here. And look like I ain't gonna leave 'cause I got too old now.