M., Sadie, April 9, 1976, tape 1, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: The following is an interview with Mrs. Sadie M. At 328 West 13th Avenue in Homestead, recorded on April 9th, 1976. [recording paused]

Sadie M.: And they came to work in the mill. And then they were-- There was an uncle of mine. He went south to bring them here. Gottlieb: Is that right? Sadie M.: Yeah. He was a uncle by marriage, though. Uh, Charles Reynolds was his name, but he used to go down there and bring them to work in the mill.

Gottlieb: Did he-- Was this his own business, or was he working for somebody else?

Sadie M.: No, he worked for somebody else. But, uh, I don't know who that somebody else was, but he used to bring him down here and-- Before they tore and built the mill and all. A lot of women down there had rooming houses for these young men that came. I was trying to think about[??] She was over in East Liberty. ________________________[??] But she ran a boarding house. And then-- she had a lot of them young men. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: That boarded with her. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: Well, if I-- If I could get a chance to talk to her, that would probably be real interesting. You know, I have never talked to anybody who kept a boarding house and who--

Sadie M.: Oh, yeah, she kept a boarding house. I mean, Miss Smith, but she lived over in...

Gottlieb: You can give me her address later. Do you have--

Mortion: [simultaneous talking] Okay. I'll give you the telephone number, but my book is upstairs.

Sadie M.: I can get that. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Uh, what-- What would her first name be?

Sadie M.: Mariah. Gottlieb: Mariah? Sadie M.: Or Maria.

Sadie M.: She calls herself Maria, [laughs] but always was Mariah, they called her.

Gottlieb: Did your family keep any boarders at that period of time?

Sadie M.: Yeah. My grandmother, she, uh-- Well, she-- in first place, she was the first colored doormat [??]. Mr. Seward. Homestead she kept-- But that was way before that time. That was in the 1900s.

Sadie M.: in one, or two, or three . Yeah, I think it was. But she did not.

Sadie M.: But she ran a boarding house. _____________________[??] McClure.

Gottlieb: Do you remember it from your childhood? And how many men she kept, and--

Sadie M.: No. I don't know.

Sadie M.: I don't know whether my mother would remember that. I don't know if she would, um-- 92. Got a pretty good memory, but I don't know whether she would remember how many men she had--

Sadie M.: Did you go to Al Burwell [ph]?

Gottlieb: Uh, I think I called him. He. He, I think, was born in this area rather than coming from the South.

Sadie M.: Oh, no. He was born right on Sixth Avenue.

Gottlieb: Right.

Gottlieb: Um, and I'm trying to concentrate on people who came up from the South. Sadie M.: I see. I see. Gottlieb: So I called him once, and he said he was busy. I should call back later. And then I learned that he wasn't from the South. And so I've been concentrating on other people, but I probably will eventually try to get back to him.

Sadie M.: Well, I ain't from the South.

Gottlieb: Yeah, but I, I, you know a lot about the church, so I got--

Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Oh, oh. Well, he-- He's a deacon of the church.

Gottlieb: Yeah.

Sadie M.: Uh. But anyhow, uh, now he could tell you about the beginning of the church, you know, like that. And when they called Reverend M. Now see Reverend M. came from Chapel Norm [??]. Gottlieb: Mhm. They call him from Chapel Norm. And so, Alfred, he probably could tell you a little bit more about that. But I can remember when he started, he started on uh--

Sadie M.: On Sixth Avenue. That's where the meeting of the men--. It started in the second floor building. It was in church.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: He'd lead them there across the street. For 222. And then they ____[??] on Fourth Avenue.

Sadie M.: And that's when-- He wasn't-- Under his pastor. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: Now, the rest of the men. The Deacon Walker would-- was playing with me. I knew him. But the rest of them I didn't know.

Gottlieb: Um. In the little history of Second Baptist Church that you showed me, it said that, uh, Reverend Sadie M. had been pastoring a church in Homewood? Sunrise?

Sadie M.: No, it-- Sun-- It was in Brush-- in Broughton.

Sadie M.: B-R-O-U-G-H-T-O-N. Broughton. There's something wrong. It was Sun something. I just can't think. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: So he was a member of Clark Memorial at the same time he was pastoring this other church in Broughton.

Sadie M.: Yeah. He was called to this church from Clark Memorial. Worked in the mill til he was called to preach.

Sadie M.: And then he took that little church and it was very small and no money. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: And half the time he would walk from Homestead back to Broughton.

Sadie M.: And walk back. Sometimes they would pay him with garden stuff.

Sadie M.: And that's how he started out. Well, he was there cause he was sent there and he took it. And knew [??] its condition.

Sadie M.: Well he was a very dedicated man, so he knew what God was gonna do for him and he, uh-- they called him to take Second Baptist. And that's it, that's-- he only had the two charges.

Mortom: Now, he took Second Baptist in 1914. Was the pastor there and built it up to what it was and then he died in 58 [??].

Gottlieb: Um, where is Broughton?

Sadie M.: It's out near Homewood somewhere? I don't know exactly, but it's out in there somewhere. Uh, maybe somebody in that section could tell you. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: But it's in the Home-- out there near Homewood, out thataway. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: But now I've never known where Broughton was-- we-- I always thought it was Brushton. But they said no. He preached in Broughton.

Gottlieb: Hm. Can you tell me something about his earlier life, where he came from and--

Sadie M.: He came from Virginia. In Charlotte County. Charlotte County. And he met-- I think, what's her name [??] I think it was ____________ [??] And they had fifteen children. My-- my husband never told me the story. Always-- she dead, too. But, um. He was a member of Clark Memorial first.

Sadie M.: He sang on the choir and he could sing. [laughs] And he was a trustee.

Gottlieb: Do you know why he left Virginia when he first came up here?

Sadie M.: Oh, he come up here to work.

Sadie M.: Yeah. Mhm. Yeah, he came up here to work in the-- Gottlieb: Do you know what kind of work he had been doing in Virginia?

Mortion: No, I don't know nothing about him in Virginia. No.

Gottlieb: Know anything about his parents? Sadie M.: No.

Sadie M.: I have-- I had heard his mother and father's name, but I have forgotten. [laughs] Mhm.

Gottlieb: Do you know what year he came up? Sadie M.: No, I don't know, I--

Sadie M.: Wait a minute. Maybe my mother-- Let me see if she's awake. Maybe she can tell you some of these--

Gottlieb: And-- but she's not sure that he did come here in 1892. Sadie M.: No. Gottlieb: Um, do you know if he, uh, had been able to get very much education in-- during his boyhood?

Sadie M.: No, he just taught--

Sadie M.: He's self-taught man. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Sadie M.: Mhm. Yeah, we didn't--

Sadie M.: And he didn't try to make out he had so much either. He just-- He was just a God fearing servant. That's what we always called it. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: We believed in teaching of God. And he-- he was a good preacher and great big man. And just like-- he worked in the mill and he they didn't have machinery like they have now. They were very strong. And he carried a pig iron just like it was a machine. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: And I hear them, the older people that lived there, I mean, lived-- Talk about how strong

Sadie M.: he was and-- and, uh. I do have a picture of him if you wanted a picture.

Gottlieb: Oh, I'd be interested in seeing a picture. I did see one photograph of him in church. Sadie M.: Mhm. Gottlieb: Um, I would be interested in seeing any other photographs of him you have or photographs that you think I might be interested in as a person who's studying Homestead.

Sadie M.: I mean, I don't know. Well, you said you'd come back. I'll look it up-- Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Fine. Sadie M.: --because I take up too much of your time-- Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: --trying to find it now. Cause I don't-- I know it's in among the pictures, but, uh.

Sadie M.: I'll have to look for it.

Gottlieb: When he came up here, whenever it was. Do you imagine that Clark Memorial was the only Baptist church?

Sadie M.: It was. Gottlieb: Was it?

Sadie M.: Coward. It was a white First Baptist. Gottlieb: Mm. Sadie M.: It was-- It used to be on the--

Sadie M.: Ninth Avenue and Munhall. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: But they moved

Sadie M.: to West Mifflin now. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: It was First Baptist. And then the Baptist church what's over there now was-- is Clark Memorial. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: And whenever Reverend M., when they called Reverend M., they down north [??]-- It was Second Avenue.

Gottlieb: Then there was a also-- I'm not sure if the church is still there. Munhall Terrace Baptist Church?

Sadie M.: Oh, it's still out there.

Sadie M.: But this is First Baptist in-- In West Mifflin now. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Sadie M.: They changed it to West Mifflin. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: Well, Reverend Jefferson. Louis Jefferson was pastor of that. Gottlieb: Of Munhall Terrace?

Sadie M.: Mhm. Gottlieb: You know when that was formed?

Gottlieb: Go back home? [??]

Sadie M.: No, but I heard him talking about how it got formed. It was formed from one of the member's homes. How it been [??], now, not too long ago. They were talking about it and they were laughing about it. One lady-- Oh, she's up in Washington now. She just telling me about how she used to-- they made her carry the coal scuttle from their home to the little church. They had one room there. Gottlieb: Mm.

Sadie M.: And she had-- she had to chop the coal every Sunday morning, in winter or summer. Gottlieb: Oh, was it? Sadie M.: It was her.

Gottlieb: Did Reverend M. marry a woman from Virginia or from the South? Or did he--

Sadie M.: I think Miss M. was from Virginia, but he married her up here.

Gottlieb: Mm.

Sadie M.: But she just, uh-- I think she said she was born in Virginia. There was two girls, her and her sister. Both dead now. And they were in Homestead. But I believe she was born in Virginia, 'course she had some children around here. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: Which you might-- probably could verify that. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: One of them lives down here at the corner.

Gottlieb: Do you have any idea whether she might have come from the same part of Virginia that he did?

Sadie M.: No, no, no, no, he don't, no, he-- Well, they didn't know one another, til they got here. And he married very young.

Gottlieb: Did Reverend M. keep his job in the mill all the while he was-- pastor?

Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Mm-mm. Soon as he got hired as pastor, he left them job.

Gottlieb: He did.

Gottlieb: But while he was--

Sadie M.: At $40 a month.

Gottlieb: It's a sacrifice. While he was--

Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] And, uh, the thing of it is, it was a sacrifice because he had all these children but three. Gottlieb: Mm.

Sadie M.: When you take in, but he-- he really believed in his call.

Gottlieb: I know that many other people, ministers of Black churches kept working. Through all the while that they were, you know, pastoring churches.

Sadie M.: Mhm. 'Cause they-- they felt like it wasn't enough money they were being paid.

Gottlieb: Mhm.

Sadie M.: But he give up the work, at $40 a month. 'Cause he really believed in his call and he believed in his God all his life. He didn't fear nothing. Mm-mm.

Gottlieb: Um, was this-- was the money to pay his, uh, monthly salary raised by contributions from the-- From the congregation. That's where it came from?

Sadie M.: Yeah. When his salary was raised, that's how it went down. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: But when he died, he was only getting $110 a month.

Sadie M.: And that doesn't get you anything. But they did pretty good. But that's all you got. $110.

Gottlieb: Were there other ways that people would try-- to try to help him and his family?

Sadie M.: Yes, they have different-- now. They celebrated his birthday with cash, at times, and we had small anniversaries, but nothing like they do nowadays. He never received nothing like that. But they did. And he were there too.

Gottlieb: I've heard of, um, church groups, uh, called, like, uh. Hope of Aids [??], and things like that.

Gottlieb: Did they ever engage in, like, helping out the minister and his family directly, or was that more for the church, so--

Sadie M.: No, they-- They did-- a lot of the members did it directly. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: And the church would help out. But-- but he was a-- he was a very, I don't know, proud man. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: He didn't ask. If-- Any way he got, really got any kind of help mostly would be like, people get together and they say, well, we ought to do this for him. We ought to do this for him. And then they get together.

Gottlieb: Well, then, he must have been a rather poor man all his life.

Sadie M.: Practically all his younger life. Gottlieb: Mm. Sadie M.: But, uh, he seemed to make it. Gottlieb: Mm. Sadie M.: Practically all his younger life.

Gottlieb: Did he have his own home or did the church own the building?

Sadie M.: Well, no. Uh, the church gave him a home. And, uh.

Sadie M.: But he had to take care of the incidentals and expenses. They don't-- didn't do him like they doing them now. [laughs] Now they-- pastors don't have to do nothing.

Gottlieb: Um. Well, they probably didn't have the money to help him the way they would have liked to at the time either.

Sadie M.: Well, in those days, I kind of think that was the hold-up. Money. And then in those days, they didn't do that. None of the churches did that. Why all of us here-- Anniversary, everything, uh, going on. And they claimed that some of the ministers, that the churches couldn't support-- Well, they would have this big day-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: To raise money. To have support. And then they just took it from there. One group you see, this one do, and this-- all that is good for this, and they're left, and they just-- gone on. And the pastors get two, three thousand dollars. Gottlieb: Mm.

Sadie M.: Almost more than they get all year's salary. [laughs] Uh huh.

Gottlieb: If there was a Black Baptist church in Homestead at the time Second Baptist was formed, why did people feel that there should be another one? A second?

Sadie M.: Well, uh, the-- Clark Memorial was always on the hill, like. And below Eighth Avenue. Why, there wasn't any. And them people-- And it was very well populated down there. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: And they felt like they wanted a church. Some of the men-- this here Deacon Walker was the main one and Deacon Burwell and a few others I can't recall. They wanted a church in the Lower Homestead. They felt like they could be better, you know, served better if they had a church to go home to. And they just kept pounding away at it using ministers that they could get. They'd stay 2 or 3 months because they couldn't pay them nothing. And so, uh. That's the way it was.

Sadie M.: First it was up on Seventh Avenue.

Sadie M.: Then it was on Sixth Avenue. Two and three places. And why they moved so much, I don't know. Unless they couldn't pay the rent. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Do you know from whom they would be renting these buildings? Would they be Black people who would live down there or just anybody they could--

Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] No. They were more like the foreign people.

Sadie M.: Like some of the Jewish people that bought the property or something. It wasn't, you know, Blacks.

Gottlieb: So it was a pretty much a matter of the geographic location of the church that--

Sadie M.: Mm. Of why there was a Second Baptist? Mhm.

Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Uh huh. Uh, cause I was thinking, you know, well, that part of Homestead doesn't exist anymore. Sadie M.: Mm-mm. Gottlieb: But between there and Clark Memorial, not that far a walk. Sadie M.: Mm-mm. Gottlieb: I mean, if it was just a distance between a place where Black people were beginning to settle in Homestead and Clark Memorial, wouldn't seem to me that-- that shouldn't be--

Sadie M.: No, it was-- Clark Memorial was on a hill-- now Clark Memorial was just across the street.

Gottlieb: Yeah.

Sadie M.: Where Teddy's Garage is now. Did you see that Teddy's Garage?

Gottlieb: Uh, yeah. Right out here on West Street.

Speaker3: No, no. On 13th before you get down?

Gottlieb: No, I didn't notice.

Sadie M.: Well, that used to be the old Clark Memorial. And then when they built right there on the corner. We marched from that building to the corner. Gottlieb: Oh. Sadie M.: Under Reverend Marshall town [??]. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: So that was the only colored church that-- they tried to have church down there. They used to meet, sing and pray and cry to hell down there. Until-- It's when Deacon Walker after he heard Reverend Sadie M. had been called. So-- then he come up and started talking to him. He said he just had that feeling, that he could be good for it.

Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Well, was there a group of people in Lower Homestead who identified themselves differently than the people up here for any reason?

Sadie M.: No, but I heard that the people on the Hill identified themselves. They thought they were a little better-- Gottlieb: I see. Sadie M.: --than the people below the tracks, they used to say.

Gottlieb: And Deacon Walker was a person who lived down there?

Sadie M.: He lived on Sixth Avenue. Most-- majority of all of them that started with Second Baptist lived below Eighth Avenue. But, uh, Deacon Walker and the majority of Deacon Burwell, majority of them lived right on Sixth Avenue in different spots. Gottlieb: Mm hmm.

Gottlieb: It wasn't any hard, uh, difference, uh, falling out, uh, argument, um, that-- that kind of speeded up the process, that was taking--

Sadie M.: No, I-- I didn't hear about that. Of course I did hear that, um, when Reverend M. wanted to go there to pastor, but the, uh, pastor that got them all then was a Reverend General [??]. He didn't want-- he didn't want to think Homestead was big enough for two-- two Black Baptist churches. Gottlieb: Mhm.

Sadie M.: And so. I heard that, but.

Sadie M.: I didn't know if that was just--

Gottlieb: Mm. Do you know whether or not-- Well, let me ask you, do you know very much about this man, Prince Cunningham?

Sadie M.: Now my mother could tell you more about him. But I knew him to see him and he was one of the workers at this First-- Second Bap-- before it was acknowledged. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: He tried to-- Tried to preach. I never thought he could preach. But he tried to. And, uh, he was in the line up before Reverend M. went there. Gottlieb: Mhm. Mhm. Sadie M.: Reverend-- they-- none of these men was-- but Deacon Walker and Deacon Burrow. Them two went after Reverend M. Come down, after the church. And they did flourish. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Sadie M.: They flourished after he took it because--

Sadie M.: Well, we all said it was because he depended on God for his guidance and [_________][??]

Gottlieb: A lot of people have said when I ask them why, why did you join Second Baptist as opposed to Clark Memorial, said, Well, it was just closer to me, where I was living.

Sadie M.: Yeah, well, that was what a lot of them did. And they had-- And that's why these men thought that they could have a second church, because the people in the Lower Homestead, they-- some of them came up to Clark Memorial, but the majority of them didn't. So there was no church there. And, uh, they would go to this little mission, as they called it then, and-- Those that wanted to, but the majority of them didn't. Because even when Reverend M. went in there, he, uh-- don't know how to say this one.[??]

Gottlieb: Do you want me to turn off the machine? Sadie M.: Mm?

Gottlieb: Would you rather I turn off the machine?

Sadie M.: Yeah. [laughs]

Gottlieb: Uh, in your opinion, did he-- was he able to do more than that? Sadie M.: Who?

Gottlieb: Reverend M..

Sadie M.: Oh, yeah. Reverend M. was really a pastor.

Gottlieb: Mhm.

Sadie M.: He was really a pastor. I ain't saying that 'cause he was my father in law. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: But everyone will tell you that-- you know, that really knew him. He was really a pastor. He didn't go for foolishness. And he'd really--

Sadie M.: He'd give you the doctrine from that Bible. And he meant for you-- If you stayed in that church, you were gonna keep-- you were gonna do it. [laughs] He was, uh, everybody loved him, but he-- they-- they will talk about how strict he was and how scared they were of him. Gottlieb: Mm. Sadie M.: And I said, Well, there was no need of being scared. They said, No way. That man looked at you. Gottlieb: Wow. Sadie M.: He had real big eyes and he knew-- he had a habit of blaring it. And when you're doing wrong, that's all he would do. He didn't say nothing. Just blare [??] your eyes. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: The lady was telling me not too long ago about how they used to stand out in the vestibule, talking, laughing and talking and everything and he just come to the door and look. And til there's this-- [snapping noise] --and they'd be getting out of his way. [laughs]

Gottlieb: Did he used to go around the community, uh, keeping watch over his congregation-- Sadie M.: Yes, yes he did. Gottlieb: --in their homes?

Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, he did. They said that-- those that talked to me before I joined, he really was interested in me. Come to your homes and just every day, he'd be walking the streets and meet relatives and going to the hospital, going to the home. He really took care of his church. He-- he was a man that did that. He didn't do so much running the meetings and things like that. He didn't do that. He just took care of his flock, 'cause he said.

Gottlieb: What kind of, um, people did he want his-- members of his church to be? I mean, he-- he--

Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Oh, he, he want-- he just really wanted them to be God's people. I thought, you know, that-- good Christian people. Gottlieb: Oh. Sadie M.: And if they didn't do it, why, it wasn't his fault? Because he really preached the word, he preached-- just like the Bible. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: He-- no shortcuts or no saying, well, if you do this, it maybe-- it isn't what God-- He won't scold you for this or whatever they said in that Bible. That was it. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: He didn't make up-- like some of the preachers.

Sadie M.: Well, they'll change a sentence or something like that, because the Bible don't mean this or the Bible don't mean that. Mm-mm. Not Reverend M. The Bible meant everything it said. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: To him.

Gottlieb: Were there ever times when the church would hold, uh, revivals? Try to really get a lot of members? One time, was that a--

Sadie M.: He had-- held revivals. And I mean revivals, too. They had revivals. They didn't have programs like they do now. We had revivals.

Gottlieb: Do you remember what they were like?

Sadie M.: Yeah. They were spiritual, you know. Spiritual. He had preachin' and singin'. People that were-- didn't belong to church would go and they would line up and they would join. Those kind of folks don't go to revivals.

Gottlieb: And were they held at a certain time of year? Was it a regular--

Sadie M.: He always had-- He had his more or less in the spring and fall. Twice a year.

Gottlieb: Was it a regular part of the annual cycle of things?

Sadie M.: Church programming. Yeah. He-- he didn't miss them. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: Once a year in his life. And it was-- and he-- he'd get a man that really could preach too. There was no playing around having a program.

Gottlieb: It was a time when somebody, a guest minister, would come?

Sadie M.: Minister. Mm-hm. Yeah. He'd invite a guest minister. And they'd have all kind of prayer meetings, you know, prayin', singin' and prayin'--

Gottlieb: Yeah.

Sadie M.: I don't know. People were more, uh. I-- I can't really-- I'm not have the word, but I get--

Sadie M.: People were more accord with the church or something. Church program. They weren't always having everything in church. Not under him, mm-mm. I know that, sometimes the lady would be-- officers of different organizations would want to do this or do the other, and they'd go to him.

Sadie M.: And he didn't do it. He didn't have-- Mm-mm. God-fearing man, lemme tell you. Everybody that knew him would tell you that.

Gottlieb: Would, uh, would these, uh, uh, revivals be publicized very much-- Sadie M.: Mm-hm. Gottlieb: --or would it pretty much be the church members who knew--

Sadie M.: Mm-hm. Yeah, they'd be publicized, and then the members themselves would talk it up, 'cause they would be going. They wouldn't want to miss it. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: They would bring in somebody else And if they knew anybody didn't belong to church or something, they would go after them too. Sadie M.: Once. The Southern states had the largest number of people. I just-- I just can't-- I didn't get it. I ask about it, and my son, he's a financial secretary, and I asked him, would he know-- Gottlieb: Uh huh. Sadie M.: --who had it. He said, He don't think nobody has that. Gottlieb: What-- Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] See, we moved around and-- and when they tore down Lower Homestead, we had to move-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: --and pack our stuff and storage. And so when they got a place to go, so much of the stuff, they just-- just didn't bother bringing and so much of our stuff really got lost in storage.

Gottlieb: Do you think that just by going over the list that you have here in your home and by memory, trying to remember where these people were from?

Sadie M.: Mm, I just have a missionary list. I don't have the church membership roll.

Gottlieb: Well, that would be-- that would be of some considerable help to me. Just as a-- just to go over the the missionary circle list.

Sadie M.: Well I can try let-- Was the senior missionary. Gottlieb: Oh. Sadie M.: --and we had the younger groups, but they kind of give up. But we don't have the younger groups now. But now, whether Miss Jenkins would have the role or not, I'm sure she doesn't. And she might. I don't know. But this is the one that I left to-- to her and it was 90 some then. Maybe I could help you out a little, I don't know. There's Adelaide Backer. She's a-- she--

Gottlieb: She's from South Carolina. I know, I tried to, uh, from talking to different people, I found out where her husband was from because other men who were from South Carolina told me that her husband had come up. Sadie M.: Mhm.

Sadie M.: Mhm. Mary Beth is-- she lives in Lower Homestead and she's from-- I think-- I think Mary-- Mary was from Virginia.

Sadie M.: Yeah, I think she's from Virginia.

Sadie M.: And Sarah Burwell is from West Virginia. Now, that's-- you've been trying to get ahold of him-- Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] That's from Homestead. Sadie M.: --but he's from Pennsylvania.

Gottlieb: Is he from Homestead? Sadie M.: Yeah. Gottlieb: His father. Okay. His father was one of the founders of the church.

Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Yeah, his daddy. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: Yeah, his daddy was.

Gottlieb: Mhm.

Sadie M.: And they was raised right down there where the mill is now. Uh, well, not all of them, but he was born here. Gottlieb: Mm hmm. Sadie M.: I'm pretty sure Al was born in Homestead.

Sadie M.: And this here. Jamie Bennett. Pauline Bale. Martin Bean. I think he's from South Carolina. Ruth Bradley is from West Virginia. Earl Bundret [ph] is right from Homestead. Charlie Chief [ph] is from South Carolina. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: Have you been to Mr. Chief?

Gottlieb: Mhm. He's a very nice man.

Sadie M.: Mhm. And Sylvia Cole is from Virginia. Her husband was one of our deacons, now he's dead.

Sadie M.: And Danny Crawley. She lives up in Glen Hazel now. She's from--

Gottlieb: I called her once and she wasn't interested in talking to me, but I think she said she was from North Carolina. Sadie M.: Mhm. Mhm. Gottlieb: Just across the state line from Virginia.

Sadie M.: Now, you-- you should have went to her, but she ain't going to talk over telephone. She's gonna to ask you million-- million questions before, anyhow.

Gottlieb: Uh-huh. What about her husband, Luther Crawley?

Sadie M.: Well, he-- he's a-- his mind is kind of absent minded. Like he's a retiree. Gottlieb: Uh-huh? Sadie M.: He couldn't talk to you.

Gottlieb: Well, do you know where he's from?

Sadie M.: I think he's from Virginia.

Sadie M.: Maybe he's from Virginia. I used to know where all these folks was, but, um. From. But about me, I can't think now. And Inez Fuller, she's been in Homestead practically all her life. But she was born in Washington, D.C., and we met, say-- talk to her?

Gottlieb: Is that Mrs. Ruby Fuller or did you say Inez?

Sadie M.: Inez. Gottlieb: No. Sadie M.: Well, she lived down Twelfth Island. But she was born in Washington, D.C. A lot of folks don't know that 'cause I didn't know it. And me and her, personal friends. Didn't know I was born in Washington, D.C..

Gottlieb: Huh. She came up when she was a young, young person? Sadie M.: Oh, yeah.

Sadie M.: She _____[??] another bride [??]. And at first they lived in Hayes, I think. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: But we had a laugh over that because nobody really didn't know. Mhm. And Blanche Cole was from Homestead.

Sadie M.: Ruby Ellis, I believe, is from Johns-- and from We-- um, Virginia.

Sadie M.: Ruby Fuller [??]

Sadie M.: I don't know. I think she's from down South. Elizabeth Frazier's from North Carolina.

Sadie M.: Joe Green is from Georgia.

Sadie M.: Rose Green. Don't know where Rose is from. I know, too. But I can't-- I can't really think right now. Joseph Gate is definitely from-- Have you been to him? Gottlieb: South-- Yeah. Sadie M.: Definitely from South Carolina. And Laura Henderson, I think, is from West Virginia. Sadie M.: _______[??] Irma, he's dead. Lamus [ph] Hazich, from Pennsylvania.

Sadie M.: I know Johnson. I forgot-- [unintelligible]

Sadie M.: I used to know-- Indiana, James is from-- I used to know 'cause we had a state rally once and we had that all-- know--

Gottlieb: Uh huh. What's a state rally?

Sadie M.: We, uh. You know, have different people born in different states. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: You put a captain over the state, and they're supposed to get the people that's born in that state and, uh, to raise money, and that.

Gottlieb: Oh. It's like a competition between different states. Sadie M.: Mhm.

Sadie M.: I think that year Virginia won. Virginia usually-- now not our ch--, but Clark Memorial, now a majority of their folks over there are from Virginia.

Gottlieb: You'd say that-- you'd say that with pretty much certainty. Sadie M.: Yes. Gottlieb: That that's true. Sadie M.: Yeah. Clark: Because that's the impression I got when I was talking to people from Clark Memorial. And the--

Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Mhm. Yeah, the majority of them, 'cause, see, I come from Clark Memorial-- Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: I grew up in Clark Memorial. Even married in Clark Memorial. And so I do know that we used to put a states rally on there almost every year, and I kind of know that. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: But the majority of them were from Virginia.

Gottlieb: That's why I-- I noticed when I started talking to people from Second Baptist, here's something different, because these people don't seem to be all-- as much from Virginia as the people from Clark Memorial. Sadie M.: Mhm.

Sadie M.: Mhm. No, it's a scatteration of them in Second Baptist and uh, the older ones, not-- the older ones, they're from the Southern states. I can't just, you know, pick them out. Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Yeah. Sadie M.: But they're in-- going over them and then having these states rallies and all we found out, we even found out people we didn't even know-- We thought they were from Pennsylvania-- Gottlieb: Uh-huh. Sadie M.: --from even from Homestead in Pittsburgh. And they were from South, you know.

Gottlieb: Did people try to keep it a secret or something, where they were from?

Sadie M.: No, nobody never had to ask. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Sadie M.: And they I don't know what-- when they, in signing in there in the church, I don't know whether they asked that or not, but, uh. We found out, now, I found out this, though. A majority of the people from Second Baptist seem like they're either from South Carolina or North Carolina.

Gottlieb: Did you talk to somebody to find that out or--

Sadie M.: No, after just working with them. Gottlieb: Okay.

Gottlieb: All right. Well, that's what I was interested in knowing.

Sadie M.: It seems like-- And then we had well, we have them scattered, but it seemed like whenever we had their state rally, it was like between the South Carolina and North Carolina and Virginia. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: Pennsylvania was a younger group, you know.

Gottlieb: Oh, was that right? That was maybe the sons and daughters of the people who'd come up an earlier time.

Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Mhm. And then some, we found out, was born in some parts of Pennsylvania we didn't even know about. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Sadie M.: We were surprised. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Sadie M.: So these, you know, states rally came up. We were really surprised that they were-- Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: --from-- from, uh, Pennsylvania.

Sadie M.: And then this woman I was talking about with Washington, D.C., well, they was shocked when she told them that's where she was born. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: Washington, D.C.. Give them the year and everything. Give them the year and everything. Yeah. But look like me. There is a Virginia. South Carolina.

Sadie M.: Irene Lance [??], South Carolina. Cecil Johnson born in Homestead. Susie Jackson. And she's Virginia.

Sadie M.: Agnes McClintough [??].

Sadie M.: She's a Pennsylvanian. No, she isn't. She's West Virginian. Andy McCluskey, South Carolina. Alan Matthews is Virginia. Anna Murphy is North Carolina. Ray Porter is Homestead. Rob-- Ethel Robinson is Mississippi. That's the first one we got in Mississippi. Mally Robinson, Mississippi.

Sadie M.: Leanne Ross [??] is Homestead.

Sadie M.: Lillian Rowe. I don't know whether Bill is Homestead, Pennsylvania, or Virginia.

Gottlieb: Is that Mr. Walter Rowe? Sadie M.: Mhm. Gottlieb: Yeah, I wanted to talk to him, too. He was recommended to me by Mrs. Walker, but, uh, I'm going to call him later on in the week.

Sadie M.: That's her uncle.

Gottlieb: Oh. Sadie M.: Mhm. Gottlieb: I hope he's from the South. I asked them just for names of people who come from the South. Sadie M.: Mhm.

Sadie M.: I don't think so. I don't think Walter is from the South. I believe Walter is right from Homestead.

Sadie M.: Pennsylvania.

Sadie M.: But you can go see him because some of them were brought here in children, you know.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Yeah.

Sadie M.: Mhm. Virginia Roister, now I know she's Pennsylvania.

Sadie M.: Rachel Stevens, she's dead.

Sadie M.: Rufus Long, dead. He's from South Carolina. Ruth Smith, Pennsylvania. Alan Spears, now I don't know about Alan.

Sadie M.: Estelle Sutherland, Mississippi.

Sadie M.: Kathleen Spoke [??], she's from Virginia.

Sadie M.: David Taylor, North Carolina. Georgia Terry.

Speaker3: I don't know where the brother she's from. North Carolina or South Carolina. Ellen May Turner, Virginia.

Sadie M.: Norma Jean Turner that's our pastor's wife. She's from Pennsylvania, but up around the Monongahela.

Sadie M.: Pearl Long, Virginia.

Sadie M.: Ruth White, Pennsylvania.

Sadie M.: Dorothy Taylor-- I think she's from the South, too, but I don't know -- I think she's from South Carolina.

Sadie M.: Ethel Lewis [??] is from Pennsylvania. Beth Ward is from Georgia. ____________[??] Kermit Pike. Kermit Pike. I don't think-- he was raised in Pennsylvania, but I don't think he was born in Pennsylvania. Rose Wheel, Pennsylvania. [unintelligible] Warfield and Esme. May Williams is Pennsylvania. Esme Williams is from--

Sadie M.: Either Mississippi or South Carolina.

Sadie M.: Mary Walker is, um, well, I think she's from Alabama.

Sadie M.: Then there you go.

Sadie M.: So you see, we have them.