WEBVTT 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:47.000 Peter Gottlieb: The following is an interview with Mrs. Sadie M. At 328 West 13th Avenue in Homestead, recorded on April 9th, 1976. [recording paused] 00:00:47.000 --> 00:01:04.000 Sadie M.: And they came to work in the mill. And then they were-- There was an uncle of mine. He went south to bring them here. Gottlieb: Is that right? Sadie M.: Yeah. He was a uncle by marriage, though. Uh, Charles Reynolds was his name, but he used to go down there and bring them to work in the mill. 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:07.000 Gottlieb: Did he-- Was this his own business, or was he working for somebody else? 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:52.000 Sadie M.: No, he worked for somebody else. But, uh, I don't know who that somebody else was, but he used to bring him down here and-- Before they tore and built the mill and all. A lot of women down there had rooming houses for these young men that came. I was trying to think about[??] She was over in East Liberty. ________________________[??] But she ran a boarding house. And then-- she had a lot of them young men. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: That boarded with her. [unintelligible] 00:01:52.000 --> 00:02:01.000 Gottlieb: Well, if I-- If I could get a chance to talk to her, that would probably be real interesting. You know, I have never talked to anybody who kept a boarding house and who-- 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:12.000 Sadie M.: Oh, yeah, she kept a boarding house. I mean, Miss Smith, but she lived over in... 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:14.000 Gottlieb: You can give me her address later. Do you have-- 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:18.000 Mortion: [simultaneous talking] Okay. I'll give you the telephone number, but my book is upstairs. 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:19.000 Sadie M.: I can get that. Gottlieb: Yeah. 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:24.000 Gottlieb: Uh, what-- What would her first name be? 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:27.000 Sadie M.: Mariah. Gottlieb: Mariah? Sadie M.: Or Maria. 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:37.000 Sadie M.: She calls herself Maria, [laughs] but always was Mariah, they called her. 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:41.000 Gottlieb: Did your family keep any boarders at that period of time? 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:55.000 Sadie M.: Yeah. My grandmother, she, uh-- Well, she-- in first place, she was the first colored doormat [??]. Mr. Seward. Homestead she kept-- But that was way before that time. That was in the 1900s. 00:02:55.000 --> 00:03:05.000 Sadie M.: in one, or two, or three . Yeah, I think it was. But she did not. 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:15.000 Sadie M.: But she ran a boarding house. _____________________[??] McClure. 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:23.000 Gottlieb: Do you remember it from your childhood? And how many men she kept, and-- 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:24.000 Sadie M.: No. I don't know. 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Sadie M.: I don't know whether my mother would remember that. I don't know if she would, um-- 92. Got a pretty good memory, but I don't know whether she would remember how many men she had-- 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:46.000 Sadie M.: Did you go to Al Burwell [ph]? 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:53.000 Gottlieb: Uh, I think I called him. He. He, I think, was born in this area rather than coming from the South. 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:55.000 Sadie M.: Oh, no. He was born right on Sixth Avenue. 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:56.000 Gottlieb: Right. 00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:14.000 Gottlieb: Um, and I'm trying to concentrate on people who came up from the South. Sadie M.: I see. I see. Gottlieb: So I called him once, and he said he was busy. I should call back later. And then I learned that he wasn't from the South. And so I've been concentrating on other people, but I probably will eventually try to get back to him. 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:15.000 Sadie M.: Well, I ain't from the South. 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.000 Gottlieb: Yeah, but I, I, you know a lot about the church, so I got-- 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:21.000 Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Oh, oh. Well, he-- He's a deacon of the church. 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:22.000 Gottlieb: Yeah. 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:50.000 Sadie M.: Uh. But anyhow, uh, now he could tell you about the beginning of the church, you know, like that. And when they called Reverend M. Now see Reverend M. came from Chapel Norm [??]. Gottlieb: Mhm. They call him from Chapel Norm. And so, Alfred, he probably could tell you a little bit more about that. But I can remember when he started, he started on uh-- 00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:01.000 Sadie M.: On Sixth Avenue. That's where the meeting of the men--. It started in the second floor building. It was in church. 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:10.000 Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: He'd lead them there across the street. For 222. And then they ____[??] on Fourth Avenue. 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:30.000 Sadie M.: And that's when-- He wasn't-- Under his pastor. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: Now, the rest of the men. The Deacon Walker would-- was playing with me. I knew him. But the rest of them I didn't know. 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:42.000 Gottlieb: Um. In the little history of Second Baptist Church that you showed me, it said that, uh, Reverend Sadie M. had been pastoring a church in Homewood? Sunrise? 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:49.000 Sadie M.: No, it-- Sun-- It was in Brush-- in Broughton. 00:05:49.000 --> 00:06:11.000 Sadie M.: B-R-O-U-G-H-T-O-N. Broughton. There's something wrong. It was Sun something. I just can't think. [unintelligible] 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:16.000 Gottlieb: So he was a member of Clark Memorial at the same time he was pastoring this other church in Broughton. 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:27.000 Sadie M.: Yeah. He was called to this church from Clark Memorial. Worked in the mill til he was called to preach. 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:44.000 Sadie M.: And then he took that little church and it was very small and no money. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: And half the time he would walk from Homestead back to Broughton. 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:53.000 Sadie M.: And walk back. Sometimes they would pay him with garden stuff. 00:06:53.000 --> 00:07:02.000 Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: And that's how he started out. Well, he was there cause he was sent there and he took it. And knew [??] its condition. 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:21.000 Sadie M.: Well he was a very dedicated man, so he knew what God was gonna do for him and he, uh-- they called him to take Second Baptist. And that's it, that's-- he only had the two charges. 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:35.000 Mortom: Now, he took Second Baptist in 1914. Was the pastor there and built it up to what it was and then he died in 58 [??]. 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:37.000 Gottlieb: Um, where is Broughton? 00:07:37.000 --> 00:08:00.000 Sadie M.: It's out near Homewood somewhere? I don't know exactly, but it's out in there somewhere. Uh, maybe somebody in that section could tell you. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: But it's in the Home-- out there near Homewood, out thataway. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: But now I've never known where Broughton was-- we-- I always thought it was Brushton. But they said no. He preached in Broughton. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:06.000 Gottlieb: Hm. Can you tell me something about his earlier life, where he came from and-- 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:42.000 Sadie M.: He came from Virginia. In Charlotte County. Charlotte County. And he met-- I think, what's her name [??] I think it was ____________ [??] And they had fifteen children. My-- my husband never told me the story. Always-- she dead, too. But, um. He was a member of Clark Memorial first. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:58.000 Sadie M.: He sang on the choir and he could sing. [laughs] And he was a trustee. 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:01.000 Gottlieb: Do you know why he left Virginia when he first came up here? 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:06.000 Sadie M.: Oh, he come up here to work. 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:12.000 Sadie M.: Yeah. Mhm. Yeah, he came up here to work in the-- Gottlieb: Do you know what kind of work he had been doing in Virginia? 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.000 Mortion: No, I don't know nothing about him in Virginia. No. 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:19.000 Gottlieb: Know anything about his parents? Sadie M.: No. 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:27.000 Sadie M.: I have-- I had heard his mother and father's name, but I have forgotten. [laughs] Mhm. 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:35.000 Gottlieb: Do you know what year he came up? Sadie M.: No, I don't know, I-- 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:44.000 Sadie M.: Wait a minute. Maybe my mother-- Let me see if she's awake. Maybe she can tell you some of these-- 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:57.000 Gottlieb: And-- but she's not sure that he did come here in 1892. Sadie M.: No. Gottlieb: Um, do you know if he, uh, had been able to get very much education in-- during his boyhood? 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:58.000 Sadie M.: No, he just taught-- 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:02.000 Sadie M.: He's self-taught man. Gottlieb: Uh huh. 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:03.000 Sadie M.: Mhm. Yeah, we didn't-- 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:43.000 Sadie M.: And he didn't try to make out he had so much either. He just-- He was just a God fearing servant. That's what we always called it. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: We believed in teaching of God. And he-- he was a good preacher and great big man. And just like-- he worked in the mill and he they didn't have machinery like they have now. They were very strong. And he carried a pig iron just like it was a machine. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: And I hear them, the older people that lived there, I mean, lived-- Talk about how strong 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:52.000 Sadie M.: he was and-- and, uh. I do have a picture of him if you wanted a picture. 00:10:52.000 --> 00:11:08.000 Gottlieb: Oh, I'd be interested in seeing a picture. I did see one photograph of him in church. Sadie M.: Mhm. Gottlieb: Um, I would be interested in seeing any other photographs of him you have or photographs that you think I might be interested in as a person who's studying Homestead. 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:20.000 Sadie M.: I mean, I don't know. Well, you said you'd come back. I'll look it up-- Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Fine. Sadie M.: --because I take up too much of your time-- Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: --trying to find it now. Cause I don't-- I know it's in among the pictures, but, uh. 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.000 Sadie M.: I'll have to look for it. 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:27.000 Gottlieb: When he came up here, whenever it was. Do you imagine that Clark Memorial was the only Baptist church? 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:28.000 Sadie M.: It was. Gottlieb: Was it? 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:37.000 Sadie M.: Coward. It was a white First Baptist. Gottlieb: Mm. Sadie M.: It was-- It used to be on the-- 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:40.000 Sadie M.: Ninth Avenue and Munhall. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: But they moved 00:11:40.000 --> 00:12:04.000 Sadie M.: to West Mifflin now. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: It was First Baptist. And then the Baptist church what's over there now was-- is Clark Memorial. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: And whenever Reverend M., when they called Reverend M., they down north [??]-- It was Second Avenue. 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:09.000 Gottlieb: Then there was a also-- I'm not sure if the church is still there. Munhall Terrace Baptist Church? 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:10.000 Sadie M.: Oh, it's still out there. 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:24.000 Sadie M.: But this is First Baptist in-- In West Mifflin now. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Sadie M.: They changed it to West Mifflin. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: Well, Reverend Jefferson. Louis Jefferson was pastor of that. Gottlieb: Of Munhall Terrace? 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:27.000 Sadie M.: Mhm. Gottlieb: You know when that was formed? 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:29.000 Gottlieb: Go back home? [??] 00:12:29.000 --> 00:13:07.000 Sadie M.: No, but I heard him talking about how it got formed. It was formed from one of the member's homes. How it been [??], now, not too long ago. They were talking about it and they were laughing about it. One lady-- Oh, she's up in Washington now. She just telling me about how she used to-- they made her carry the coal scuttle from their home to the little church. They had one room there. Gottlieb: Mm. 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:18.000 Sadie M.: And she had-- she had to chop the coal every Sunday morning, in winter or summer. Gottlieb: Oh, was it? Sadie M.: It was her. 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:24.000 Gottlieb: Did Reverend M. marry a woman from Virginia or from the South? Or did he-- 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:32.000 Sadie M.: I think Miss M. was from Virginia, but he married her up here. 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:33.000 Gottlieb: Mm. 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:56.000 Sadie M.: But she just, uh-- I think she said she was born in Virginia. There was two girls, her and her sister. Both dead now. And they were in Homestead. But I believe she was born in Virginia, 'course she had some children around here. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: Which you might-- probably could verify that. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: One of them lives down here at the corner. 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Gottlieb: Do you have any idea whether she might have come from the same part of Virginia that he did? 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:12.000 Sadie M.: No, no, no, no, he don't, no, he-- Well, they didn't know one another, til they got here. And he married very young. 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.000 Gottlieb: Did Reverend M. keep his job in the mill all the while he was-- pastor? 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:19.000 Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Mm-mm. Soon as he got hired as pastor, he left them job. 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:21.000 Gottlieb: He did. 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:22.000 Gottlieb: But while he was-- 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.000 Sadie M.: At $40 a month. 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:28.000 Gottlieb: It's a sacrifice. While he was-- 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:37.000 Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] And, uh, the thing of it is, it was a sacrifice because he had all these children but three. Gottlieb: Mm. 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:43.000 Sadie M.: When you take in, but he-- he really believed in his call. 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:51.000 Gottlieb: I know that many other people, ministers of Black churches kept working. Through all the while that they were, you know, pastoring churches. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:52.000 Sadie M.: Mhm. 'Cause they-- they felt like it wasn't enough money they were being paid. 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:57.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. 00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:14.000 Sadie M.: But he give up the work, at $40 a month. 'Cause he really believed in his call and he believed in his God all his life. He didn't fear nothing. Mm-mm. 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:25.000 Gottlieb: Um, was this-- was the money to pay his, uh, monthly salary raised by contributions from the-- From the congregation. That's where it came from? 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:36.000 Sadie M.: Yeah. When his salary was raised, that's how it went down. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: But when he died, he was only getting $110 a month. 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:41.000 Sadie M.: And that doesn't get you anything. But they did pretty good. But that's all you got. $110. 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:44.000 Gottlieb: Were there other ways that people would try-- to try to help him and his family? 00:15:44.000 --> 00:16:03.000 Sadie M.: Yes, they have different-- now. They celebrated his birthday with cash, at times, and we had small anniversaries, but nothing like they do nowadays. He never received nothing like that. But they did. And he were there too. 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:10.000 Gottlieb: I've heard of, um, church groups, uh, called, like, uh. Hope of Aids [??], and things like that. 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:19.000 Gottlieb: Did they ever engage in, like, helping out the minister and his family directly, or was that more for the church, so-- 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:49.000 Sadie M.: No, they-- They did-- a lot of the members did it directly. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: And the church would help out. But-- but he was a-- he was a very, I don't know, proud man. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: He didn't ask. If-- Any way he got, really got any kind of help mostly would be like, people get together and they say, well, we ought to do this for him. We ought to do this for him. And then they get together. 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:52.000 Gottlieb: Well, then, he must have been a rather poor man all his life. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:59.000 Sadie M.: Practically all his younger life. Gottlieb: Mm. Sadie M.: But, uh, he seemed to make it. Gottlieb: Mm. Sadie M.: Practically all his younger life. 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:04.000 Gottlieb: Did he have his own home or did the church own the building? 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:12.000 Sadie M.: Well, no. Uh, the church gave him a home. And, uh. 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:26.000 Sadie M.: But he had to take care of the incidentals and expenses. They don't-- didn't do him like they doing them now. [laughs] Now they-- pastors don't have to do nothing. 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:33.000 Gottlieb: Um. Well, they probably didn't have the money to help him the way they would have liked to at the time either. 00:17:33.000 --> 00:18:16.000 Sadie M.: Well, in those days, I kind of think that was the hold-up. Money. And then in those days, they didn't do that. None of the churches did that. Why all of us here-- Anniversary, everything, uh, going on. And they claimed that some of the ministers, that the churches couldn't support-- Well, they would have this big day-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: To raise money. To have support. And then they just took it from there. One group you see, this one do, and this-- all that is good for this, and they're left, and they just-- gone on. And the pastors get two, three thousand dollars. Gottlieb: Mm. 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:22.000 Sadie M.: Almost more than they get all year's salary. [laughs] Uh huh. 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:30.000 Gottlieb: If there was a Black Baptist church in Homestead at the time Second Baptist was formed, why did people feel that there should be another one? A second? 00:18:30.000 --> 00:19:20.000 Sadie M.: Well, uh, the-- Clark Memorial was always on the hill, like. And below Eighth Avenue. Why, there wasn't any. And them people-- And it was very well populated down there. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: And they felt like they wanted a church. Some of the men-- this here Deacon Walker was the main one and Deacon Burwell and a few others I can't recall. They wanted a church in the Lower Homestead. They felt like they could be better, you know, served better if they had a church to go home to. And they just kept pounding away at it using ministers that they could get. They'd stay 2 or 3 months because they couldn't pay them nothing. And so, uh. That's the way it was. 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.000 Sadie M.: First it was up on Seventh Avenue. 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:30.000 Sadie M.: Then it was on Sixth Avenue. Two and three places. And why they moved so much, I don't know. Unless they couldn't pay the rent. Gottlieb: Yeah. 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:38.000 Gottlieb: Do you know from whom they would be renting these buildings? Would they be Black people who would live down there or just anybody they could-- 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.000 Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] No. They were more like the foreign people. 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:50.000 Sadie M.: Like some of the Jewish people that bought the property or something. It wasn't, you know, Blacks. 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:55.000 Gottlieb: So it was a pretty much a matter of the geographic location of the church that-- 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.000 Sadie M.: Mm. Of why there was a Second Baptist? Mhm. 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:16.000 Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Uh huh. Uh, cause I was thinking, you know, well, that part of Homestead doesn't exist anymore. Sadie M.: Mm-mm. Gottlieb: But between there and Clark Memorial, not that far a walk. Sadie M.: Mm-mm. Gottlieb: I mean, if it was just a distance between a place where Black people were beginning to settle in Homestead and Clark Memorial, wouldn't seem to me that-- that shouldn't be-- 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:21.000 Sadie M.: No, it was-- Clark Memorial was on a hill-- now Clark Memorial was just across the street. 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:22.000 Gottlieb: Yeah. 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:26.000 Sadie M.: Where Teddy's Garage is now. Did you see that Teddy's Garage? 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Gottlieb: Uh, yeah. Right out here on West Street. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.000 Speaker3: No, no. On 13th before you get down? 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Gottlieb: No, I didn't notice. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:21:11.000 Sadie M.: Well, that used to be the old Clark Memorial. And then when they built right there on the corner. We marched from that building to the corner. Gottlieb: Oh. Sadie M.: Under Reverend Marshall town [??]. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: So that was the only colored church that-- they tried to have church down there. They used to meet, sing and pray and cry to hell down there. Until-- It's when Deacon Walker after he heard Reverend Sadie M. had been called. So-- then he come up and started talking to him. He said he just had that feeling, that he could be good for it. 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.000 Gottlieb: Yeah. 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:25.000 Gottlieb: Well, was there a group of people in Lower Homestead who identified themselves differently than the people up here for any reason? 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:39.000 Sadie M.: No, but I heard that the people on the Hill identified themselves. They thought they were a little better-- Gottlieb: I see. Sadie M.: --than the people below the tracks, they used to say. 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:42.000 Gottlieb: And Deacon Walker was a person who lived down there? 00:21:42.000 --> 00:22:03.000 Sadie M.: He lived on Sixth Avenue. Most-- majority of all of them that started with Second Baptist lived below Eighth Avenue. But, uh, Deacon Walker and the majority of Deacon Burwell, majority of them lived right on Sixth Avenue in different spots. Gottlieb: Mm hmm. 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:13.000 Gottlieb: It wasn't any hard, uh, difference, uh, falling out, uh, argument, um, that-- that kind of speeded up the process, that was taking-- 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:36.000 Sadie M.: No, I-- I didn't hear about that. Of course I did hear that, um, when Reverend M. wanted to go there to pastor, but the, uh, pastor that got them all then was a Reverend General [??]. He didn't want-- he didn't want to think Homestead was big enough for two-- two Black Baptist churches. Gottlieb: Mhm. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.000 Sadie M.: And so. I heard that, but. 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:51.000 Sadie M.: I didn't know if that was just-- 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:59.000 Gottlieb: Mm. Do you know whether or not-- Well, let me ask you, do you know very much about this man, Prince Cunningham? 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:43.000 Sadie M.: Now my mother could tell you more about him. But I knew him to see him and he was one of the workers at this First-- Second Bap-- before it was acknowledged. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: He tried to-- Tried to preach. I never thought he could preach. But he tried to. And, uh, he was in the line up before Reverend M. went there. Gottlieb: Mhm. Mhm. Sadie M.: Reverend-- they-- none of these men was-- but Deacon Walker and Deacon Burrow. Them two went after Reverend M. Come down, after the church. And they did flourish. Gottlieb: Yeah. 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:46.000 Sadie M.: They flourished after he took it because-- 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:56.000 Sadie M.: Well, we all said it was because he depended on God for his guidance and [_________][??] 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:05.000 Gottlieb: A lot of people have said when I ask them why, why did you join Second Baptist as opposed to Clark Memorial, said, Well, it was just closer to me, where I was living. 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:45.000 Sadie M.: Yeah, well, that was what a lot of them did. And they had-- And that's why these men thought that they could have a second church, because the people in the Lower Homestead, they-- some of them came up to Clark Memorial, but the majority of them didn't. So there was no church there. And, uh, they would go to this little mission, as they called it then, and-- Those that wanted to, but the majority of them didn't. Because even when Reverend M. went in there, he, uh-- don't know how to say this one.[??] 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:47.000 Gottlieb: Do you want me to turn off the machine? Sadie M.: Mm? 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:49.000 Gottlieb: Would you rather I turn off the machine? 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:52.000 Sadie M.: Yeah. [laughs] 00:24:52.000 --> 00:25:02.000 Gottlieb: Uh, in your opinion, did he-- was he able to do more than that? Sadie M.: Who? 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:04.000 Gottlieb: Reverend M.. 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.000 Sadie M.: Oh, yeah. Reverend M. was really a pastor. 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:15.000 Sadie M.: He was really a pastor. I ain't saying that 'cause he was my father in law. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: But everyone will tell you that-- you know, that really knew him. He was really a pastor. He didn't go for foolishness. And he'd really-- 00:25:15.000 --> 00:26:08.000 Sadie M.: He'd give you the doctrine from that Bible. And he meant for you-- If you stayed in that church, you were gonna keep-- you were gonna do it. [laughs] He was, uh, everybody loved him, but he-- they-- they will talk about how strict he was and how scared they were of him. Gottlieb: Mm. Sadie M.: And I said, Well, there was no need of being scared. They said, No way. That man looked at you. Gottlieb: Wow. Sadie M.: He had real big eyes and he knew-- he had a habit of blaring it. And when you're doing wrong, that's all he would do. He didn't say nothing. Just blare [??] your eyes. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: The lady was telling me not too long ago about how they used to stand out in the vestibule, talking, laughing and talking and everything and he just come to the door and look. And til there's this-- [snapping noise] --and they'd be getting out of his way. [laughs] 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:14.000 Gottlieb: Did he used to go around the community, uh, keeping watch over his congregation-- Sadie M.: Yes, yes he did. Gottlieb: --in their homes? 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:52.000 Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, he did. They said that-- those that talked to me before I joined, he really was interested in me. Come to your homes and just every day, he'd be walking the streets and meet relatives and going to the hospital, going to the home. He really took care of his church. He-- he was a man that did that. He didn't do so much running the meetings and things like that. He didn't do that. He just took care of his flock, 'cause he said. 00:26:52.000 --> 00:27:01.000 Gottlieb: What kind of, um, people did he want his-- members of his church to be? I mean, he-- he-- 00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:31.000 Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Oh, he, he want-- he just really wanted them to be God's people. I thought, you know, that-- good Christian people. Gottlieb: Oh. Sadie M.: And if they didn't do it, why, it wasn't his fault? Because he really preached the word, he preached-- just like the Bible. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: He-- no shortcuts or no saying, well, if you do this, it maybe-- it isn't what God-- He won't scold you for this or whatever they said in that Bible. That was it. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: He didn't make up-- like some of the preachers. 00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:46.000 Sadie M.: Well, they'll change a sentence or something like that, because the Bible don't mean this or the Bible don't mean that. Mm-mm. Not Reverend M. The Bible meant everything it said. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: To him. 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:54.000 Gottlieb: Were there ever times when the church would hold, uh, revivals? Try to really get a lot of members? One time, was that a-- 00:27:54.000 --> 00:28:05.000 Sadie M.: Yeah. Sadie M.: He had-- held revivals. And I mean revivals, too. They had revivals. They didn't have programs like they do now. We had revivals. 00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.000 Gottlieb: Do you remember what they were like? 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:25.000 Sadie M.: Yeah. They were spiritual, you know. Spiritual. He had preachin' and singin'. People that were-- didn't belong to church would go and they would line up and they would join. Those kind of folks don't go to revivals. 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:30.000 Gottlieb: And were they held at a certain time of year? Was it a regular-- 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:36.000 Sadie M.: He always had-- He had his more or less in the spring and fall. Twice a year. 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:41.000 Gottlieb: Was it a regular part of the annual cycle of things? 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:56.000 Sadie M.: Church programming. Yeah. He-- he didn't miss them. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: Once a year in his life. And it was-- and he-- he'd get a man that really could preach too. There was no playing around having a program. 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:06.000 Gottlieb: It was a time when somebody, a guest minister, would come? 00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:09.000 Sadie M.: Minister. Mm-hm. Yeah. He'd invite a guest minister. And they'd have all kind of prayer meetings, you know, prayin', singin' and prayin'-- 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:14.000 Gottlieb: Yeah. 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:15.000 Sadie M.: I don't know. People were more, uh. I-- I can't really-- I'm not have the word, but I get-- 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:42.000 Sadie M.: People were more accord with the church or something. Church program. They weren't always having everything in church. Not under him, mm-mm. I know that, sometimes the lady would be-- officers of different organizations would want to do this or do the other, and they'd go to him. 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:55.000 Sadie M.: And he didn't do it. He didn't have-- Mm-mm. God-fearing man, lemme tell you. Everybody that knew him would tell you that. 00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:03.000 Gottlieb: Would, uh, would these, uh, uh, revivals be publicized very much-- Sadie M.: Mm-hm. Gottlieb: --or would it pretty much be the church members who knew-- 00:30:03.000 --> 00:31:16.000 Sadie M.: Mm-hm. Yeah, they'd be publicized, and then the members themselves would talk it up, 'cause they would be going. They wouldn't want to miss it. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: They would bring in somebody else And if they knew anybody didn't belong to church or something, they would go after them too. Sadie M.: Once. The Southern states had the largest number of people. I just-- I just can't-- I didn't get it. I ask about it, and my son, he's a financial secretary, and I asked him, would he know-- Gottlieb: Uh huh. Sadie M.: --who had it. He said, He don't think nobody has that. Gottlieb: What-- Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] See, we moved around and-- and when they tore down Lower Homestead, we had to move-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: --and pack our stuff and storage. And so when they got a place to go, so much of the stuff, they just-- just didn't bother bringing and so much of our stuff really got lost in storage. 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:26.000 Gottlieb: Do you think that just by going over the list that you have here in your home and by memory, trying to remember where these people were from? 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:32.000 Sadie M.: Mm, I just have a missionary list. I don't have the church membership roll. 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:42.000 Gottlieb: Well, that would be-- that would be of some considerable help to me. Just as a-- just to go over the the missionary circle list. 00:31:42.000 --> 00:32:22.000 Sadie M.: Well I can try let-- Was the senior missionary. Gottlieb: Oh. Sadie M.: --and we had the younger groups, but they kind of give up. But we don't have the younger groups now. But now, whether Miss Jenkins would have the role or not, I'm sure she doesn't. And she might. I don't know. But this is the one that I left to-- to her and it was 90 some then. Maybe I could help you out a little, I don't know. There's Adelaide Backer. She's a-- she-- 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:33.000 Gottlieb: She's from South Carolina. I know, I tried to, uh, from talking to different people, I found out where her husband was from because other men who were from South Carolina told me that her husband had come up. Sadie M.: Mhm. 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:47.000 Sadie M.: Mhm. Mary Beth is-- she lives in Lower Homestead and she's from-- I think-- I think Mary-- Mary was from Virginia. 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:49.000 Sadie M.: Yeah, I think she's from Virginia. 00:32:49.000 --> 00:33:01.000 Sadie M.: And Sarah Burwell is from West Virginia. Now, that's-- you've been trying to get ahold of him-- Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] That's from Homestead. Sadie M.: --but he's from Pennsylvania. 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:06.000 Gottlieb: Is he from Homestead? Sadie M.: Yeah. Gottlieb: His father. Okay. His father was one of the founders of the church. 00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Yeah, his daddy. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: Yeah, his daddy was. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:11.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. 00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:23.000 Sadie M.: And they was raised right down there where the mill is now. Uh, well, not all of them, but he was born here. Gottlieb: Mm hmm. Sadie M.: I'm pretty sure Al was born in Homestead. 00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:52.000 Sadie M.: And this here. Jamie Bennett. Pauline Bale. Martin Bean. I think he's from South Carolina. Ruth Bradley is from West Virginia. Earl Bundret [ph] is right from Homestead. Charlie Chief [ph] is from South Carolina. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: Have you been to Mr. Chief? 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:55.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. He's a very nice man. 00:33:55.000 --> 00:34:05.000 Sadie M.: Mhm. And Sylvia Cole is from Virginia. Her husband was one of our deacons, now he's dead. 00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:08.000 Sadie M.: And Danny Crawley. She lives up in Glen Hazel now. She's from-- 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:19.000 Gottlieb: I called her once and she wasn't interested in talking to me, but I think she said she was from North Carolina. Sadie M.: Mhm. Mhm. Gottlieb: Just across the state line from Virginia. 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:28.000 Sadie M.: Now, you-- you should have went to her, but she ain't going to talk over telephone. She's gonna to ask you million-- million questions before, anyhow. 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.000 Gottlieb: Uh-huh. What about her husband, Luther Crawley? 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:39.000 Sadie M.: Well, he-- he's a-- his mind is kind of absent minded. Like he's a retiree. Gottlieb: Uh-huh? Sadie M.: He couldn't talk to you. 00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:43.000 Gottlieb: Well, do you know where he's from? 00:34:43.000 --> 00:35:04.000 Sadie M.: I think he's from Virginia. 00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:20.000 Sadie M.: Maybe he's from Virginia. I used to know where all these folks was, but, um. From. But about me, I can't think now. And Inez Fuller, she's been in Homestead practically all her life. But she was born in Washington, D.C., and we met, say-- talk to her? 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.000 Gottlieb: Is that Mrs. Ruby Fuller or did you say Inez? 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:38.000 Sadie M.: Inez. Gottlieb: No. Sadie M.: Well, she lived down Twelfth Island. But she was born in Washington, D.C. A lot of folks don't know that 'cause I didn't know it. And me and her, personal friends. Didn't know I was born in Washington, D.C.. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:41.000 Gottlieb: Huh. She came up when she was a young, young person? Sadie M.: Oh, yeah. 00:35:41.000 --> 00:36:02.000 Sadie M.: She _____[??] another bride [??]. And at first they lived in Hayes, I think. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: But we had a laugh over that because nobody really didn't know. Mhm. And Blanche Cole was from Homestead. 00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:11.000 Sadie M.: Ruby Ellis, I believe, is from Johns-- and from We-- um, Virginia. 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:14.000 Sadie M.: Ruby Fuller [??] 00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:24.000 Sadie M.: I don't know. I think she's from down South. Elizabeth Frazier's from North Carolina. 00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:25.000 Sadie M.: Joe Green is from Georgia. 00:36:25.000 --> 00:37:02.000 Sadie M.: Rose Green. Don't know where Rose is from. I know, too. But I can't-- I can't really think right now. Joseph Gate is definitely from-- Have you been to him? Gottlieb: South-- Yeah. Sadie M.: Definitely from South Carolina. And Laura Henderson, I think, is from West Virginia. Sadie M.: _______[??] Irma, he's dead. Lamus [ph] Hazich, from Pennsylvania. 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:15.000 Sadie M.: I know Johnson. I forgot-- [unintelligible] 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:26.000 Sadie M.: I used to know-- Indiana, James is from-- I used to know 'cause we had a state rally once and we had that all-- know-- 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.000 Gottlieb: Uh huh. What's a state rally? 00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:42.000 Sadie M.: We, uh. You know, have different people born in different states. Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: You put a captain over the state, and they're supposed to get the people that's born in that state and, uh, to raise money, and that. 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:48.000 Gottlieb: Oh. It's like a competition between different states. Sadie M.: Mhm. 00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:01.000 Sadie M.: I think that year Virginia won. Virginia usually-- now not our ch--, but Clark Memorial, now a majority of their folks over there are from Virginia. 00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:10.000 Gottlieb: You'd say that-- you'd say that with pretty much certainty. Sadie M.: Yes. Gottlieb: That that's true. Sadie M.: Yeah. Clark: Because that's the impression I got when I was talking to people from Clark Memorial. And the-- 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:24.000 Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Mhm. Yeah, the majority of them, 'cause, see, I come from Clark Memorial-- Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: I grew up in Clark Memorial. Even married in Clark Memorial. And so I do know that we used to put a states rally on there almost every year, and I kind of know that. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: But the majority of them were from Virginia. 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:35.000 Gottlieb: That's why I-- I noticed when I started talking to people from Second Baptist, here's something different, because these people don't seem to be all-- as much from Virginia as the people from Clark Memorial. Sadie M.: Mhm. 00:38:35.000 --> 00:39:04.000 Sadie M.: Mhm. No, it's a scatteration of them in Second Baptist and uh, the older ones, not-- the older ones, they're from the Southern states. I can't just, you know, pick them out. Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Yeah. Sadie M.: But they're in-- going over them and then having these states rallies and all we found out, we even found out people we didn't even know-- We thought they were from Pennsylvania-- Gottlieb: Uh-huh. Sadie M.: --from even from Homestead in Pittsburgh. And they were from South, you know. 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.000 Gottlieb: Did people try to keep it a secret or something, where they were from? 00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:32.000 Sadie M.: No, nobody never had to ask. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Sadie M.: And they I don't know what-- when they, in signing in there in the church, I don't know whether they asked that or not, but, uh. We found out, now, I found out this, though. A majority of the people from Second Baptist seem like they're either from South Carolina or North Carolina. 00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:35.000 Gottlieb: Did you talk to somebody to find that out or-- 00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:37.000 Sadie M.: No, after just working with them. Gottlieb: Okay. 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:40.000 Gottlieb: All right. Well, that's what I was interested in knowing. 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:59.000 Sadie M.: It seems like-- And then we had well, we have them scattered, but it seemed like whenever we had their state rally, it was like between the South Carolina and North Carolina and Virginia. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: Pennsylvania was a younger group, you know. 00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:03.000 Gottlieb: Oh, was that right? That was maybe the sons and daughters of the people who'd come up an earlier time. 00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:18.000 Sadie M.: [simultaneous talking] Mhm. And then some, we found out, was born in some parts of Pennsylvania we didn't even know about. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Sadie M.: We were surprised. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Sadie M.: So these, you know, states rally came up. We were really surprised that they were-- Gottlieb: Yeah. Sadie M.: --from-- from, uh, Pennsylvania. 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:46.000 Gottlieb: Mm. Sadie M.: And then this woman I was talking about with Washington, D.C., well, they was shocked when she told them that's where she was born. Gottlieb: Mhm. Sadie M.: Washington, D.C.. Give them the year and everything. Give them the year and everything. Yeah. But look like me. There is a Virginia. South Carolina. 00:40:46.000 --> 00:41:01.000 Sadie M.: Irene Lance [??], South Carolina. Cecil Johnson born in Homestead. Susie Jackson. And she's Virginia. 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:03.000 Sadie M.: Agnes McClintough [??]. 00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:34.000 Sadie M.: She's a Pennsylvanian. No, she isn't. She's West Virginian. Andy McCluskey, South Carolina. Alan Matthews is Virginia. Anna Murphy is North Carolina. Ray Porter is Homestead. Rob-- Ethel Robinson is Mississippi. That's the first one we got in Mississippi. Mally Robinson, Mississippi. 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:37.000 Sadie M.: Leanne Ross [??] is Homestead. 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:45.000 Sadie M.: Lillian Rowe. I don't know whether Bill is Homestead, Pennsylvania, or Virginia. 00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:56.000 Gottlieb: Is that Mr. Walter Rowe? Sadie M.: Mhm. Gottlieb: Yeah, I wanted to talk to him, too. He was recommended to me by Mrs. Walker, but, uh, I'm going to call him later on in the week. 00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:57.000 Sadie M.: That's her uncle. 00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:07.000 Gottlieb: Oh. Sadie M.: Mhm. Gottlieb: I hope he's from the South. I asked them just for names of people who come from the South. Sadie M.: Mhm. 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:21.000 Sadie M.: I don't think so. I don't think Walter is from the South. I believe Walter is right from Homestead. 00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.000 Sadie M.: Pennsylvania. 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:27.000 Sadie M.: But you can go see him because some of them were brought here in children, you know. 00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. Yeah. 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:35.000 Sadie M.: Mhm. Virginia Roister, now I know she's Pennsylvania. 00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:37.000 Sadie M.: Rachel Stevens, she's dead. 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:49.000 Sadie M.: Rufus Long, dead. He's from South Carolina. Ruth Smith, Pennsylvania. Alan Spears, now I don't know about Alan. 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:54.000 Sadie M.: Estelle Sutherland, Mississippi. 00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:57.000 Sadie M.: Kathleen Spoke [??], she's from Virginia. 00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:05.000 Sadie M.: David Taylor, North Carolina. Georgia Terry. 00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:18.000 Speaker3: I don't know where the brother she's from. North Carolina or South Carolina. Ellen May Turner, Virginia. 00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:37.000 Sadie M.: Norma Jean Turner that's our pastor's wife. She's from Pennsylvania, but up around the Monongahela. 00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000 Sadie M.: Pearl Long, Virginia. 00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:46.000 Sadie M.: Ruth White, Pennsylvania. 00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:50.000 Sadie M.: Dorothy Taylor-- I think she's from the South, too, but I don't know -- I think she's from South Carolina. 00:43:50.000 --> 00:44:43.000 Sadie M.: Ethel Lewis [??] is from Pennsylvania. Beth Ward is from Georgia. ____________[??] Kermit Pike. Kermit Pike. I don't think-- he was raised in Pennsylvania, but I don't think he was born in Pennsylvania. Rose Wheel, Pennsylvania. [unintelligible] Warfield and Esme. May Williams is Pennsylvania. Esme Williams is from-- 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:48.000 Sadie M.: Either Mississippi or South Carolina. 00:44:48.000 --> 00:45:08.000 Sadie M.: Mary Walker is, um, well, I think she's from Alabama. 00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:11.000 Sadie M.: Then there you go. 00:45:11.000 --> 00:46:11.000 Sadie M.: So you see, we have them.
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