S., Victoria, May 26, 1976, tape 1, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: This is an interview with Mrs. Victoria S. of Maple View Terrace Apartments. Apartment 11B in Braddock, Pennsylvania, recorded on May 25th, 1976, at Mrs. Victoria S.' apartment. Can you tell me where your parents were born?

Victoria S.: My father was born in Jeanerette, Louisiana, and my mother in New Iberia, Louisiana.

Gottlieb: Do you know where your grandparents came from?

Victoria S.: New Iberia. Avery's Island. My grandmother, I think. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: But it was in that area around New Iberia.

Gottlieb: Did you know them very well? Your grandparents?

Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, I knew my mother's mother, but I didn't know the father. And I knew of-- no, I didn't know my father's people too well. They were in Jeanerette.

Gottlieb: Do you know very much about what kind of life they had?

Victoria S.: A beautiful life, from what I can understand.

Gottlieb: What kind of work were they involved with?

Victoria S.: My grandfather on my father's side was a German overseer there. On my mother's side, her father, I don't know too well, but I do know my grandmother said they worked on Avery's Island.

Gottlieb: Was that farming that they were doing?

Victoria S.: More like housekeeping and raising hot peppers? This company, they put out this hot sauce. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: They had a part of that. They worked in that.

Gottlieb: Well, what kind of work did your father do?

Victoria S.: My father was an engineer in Port Arthur, Texas, out in Sabine Pass at a fish factory, which doesn't operate anymore.

Gottlieb: He was working on a railroad then?

Victoria S.: No, no. This was a fish factory. He was an engineer. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. Victoria S.: Out taking care of the engines in this factory. My mother was a beautician. Gottlieb: Huh.

Gottlieb: She had her own business there?

Victoria S.: Uh, from house to house. Gottlieb: Uh-huh. Victoria S.: She had taken this up in New Orleans, Louisiana. Gottlieb: Hm.

Gottlieb: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

Victoria S.: It was 13 of us. Gottlieb: Mhm.

Gottlieb: Are you the oldest? Youngest?

Victoria S.: I'm the baby.

Gottlieb: You're the youngest of 13? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: Oh man.

Victoria S.: And all the rest are dead now.

Gottlieb: Did they all grow up to be adults or--

Victoria S.: No, only one. My brother and myself, see, two.

Gottlieb: And the rest of them died?

Victoria S.: Died at birth, or right after birth. A year after.

Gottlieb: When you were growing up, did anyone else live with you and your parents? Any relatives? Victoria S.: Yes. Yes.

Victoria S.: Cousin.

Gottlieb: Just one cousin. So, besides you and your brother, there was-- Victoria S.: That's all. Gottlieb: Did, uh, did your parents or any of your relatives come-- move north?

Victoria S.: No, none but myself.

Gottlieb: You were the only one.

Victoria S.: Well, I could say yes 'cause my brother did. Yes. Myself and my brother.

Gottlieb: Did you come at the same time, or--

Victoria S.: No. No, he was before me.

Gottlieb: Where did he move to?

Victoria S.: Uh, New York.

Gottlieb: Do you know why he-- he decided to leave?

Victoria S.: He wanted better conditions, better work, a better living.

Gottlieb: And he left before you did? Victoria S.: Oh, yes. Gottlieb: Quite a few years before?

Victoria S.: Quite a few. Quite a few. Oh, yes. He left when I was in school.

Gottlieb: Was he quite a bit older than you were?

Victoria S.: Oh, yes. Gottlieb: Mm. Victoria S.: My brother was-- Well, I guess he was about 30 years older than me.

Gottlieb: Hm. Wow. Did you ever visit him there? Victoria S.: Yes. Can you tell me something about those visits and what you thought of New York City?

Victoria S.: Oh, I thought it was beautiful. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: And, uh, he also moved out at New Rochelle, and I love it there. My brother and I were very close. Anything nice, he wanted me to have a part of it. Gottlieb: Mm. Victoria S.: And, uh, it was very educational. You saw things you never saw before. It really made me know what I wanted to do after my kids-- I went back home. I felt that I wanted something better for them, and that helped me to decide. Now, after I lost my mother, I had nothing to stay back there for. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: So I brought my children here with naught. And my husband would have been missin' us.

Victoria S.: And we just decided I wanted something better for my girls and for myself.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Do you remember anything in particular that you saw in New York City that made you feel like it was a possibility for you doing better for yourself or--

Victoria S.: Oh, yes. I saw the betterment of the other people, and I saw some people that-- I thought New York was just for the rich or the big or the great. I saw some people in the worse shape than I was in, and I knew I could make it.

Gottlieb: Mhm.

Gottlieb: How much schooling did you get in Texas?

Victoria S.: Ninth grade.

Gottlieb: Were you born in Louisiana and your parents later moved to Texas?

Victoria S.: I was born in Texas.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me something about why your parents left Louisiana and went to Texas?

Victoria S.: No, I really wouldn't know why. I really wouldn't. I don't know.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Do you know whether or not they moved after they were married or did they meet each other in Texas?

Victoria S.: My mother and father met in Texas.

Gottlieb: What do you remember about the the schooling that you got at that time in terms of the conditions and, uh, the buildings and the teachers and--

Victoria S.: Oh, I come from a very nice school, uh, very clean, uh, and the children were well taught as far as the learning went. We weren't allowed to go to school with the white. We went and we went to Lincoln High School. Our principal was a Christian man, very strict. He believed in the strap and he used it. I enjoyed my school life, but, uh, it just didn't give me what I wanted for my children. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: I'm sorry I couldn't finish school, but I had to go to work. My father died, but my school life, I feel now, was in many ways better than school is now because we had better behavior. We didn't go to jail. Our fathers and mothers felt like they-- they were the boss. And you listened when you were spoken to. My school life was beautiful.

Gottlieb: Was this school in the town itself or out in the country?

Victoria S.: No, it was in-- in town. Port Arthur is-- isn't-- It's the largest refinery in the world, is there. And it's not a country. It's a perfect little town. However, there was-- cross this track and over the track, up the track, up was where the white lived and across the track where the colored maids. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: And everybody had-- They knew their place. They knew this was your school. You had no business in the white school. You know, this was your show. You didn't go in the white. And in many ways it was better than it is here, because they say, you're welcome. But a lot of places, they don't want you here. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: You know? And, uh, it was beautiful. However, I was raised uptown with the white, my mother and father worked and lived on premises from one family for 22 years. Gottlieb: They rented? Victoria S.: No, they were given their house because they worked for these people. And, uh, my father worked in a machine shop and my mother kept house and cooked. So I really, uh, was in the white neighborhood most of my life. I-- even when I started to school, I had to go across the tracks. I stayed with my grandmother at that time.

Gottlieb: She lived in Port Arthur as well?

Victoria S.: Yes. Yes.

Gottlieb: Um, did the schools for Black people at that time run as long as the schools for white or were they-- Victoria S.: Oh, yes. Yes. Mhm. Gottlieb: So you went to school about the same month of the year as children go to school now.

Victoria S.: Oh yes. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Uh, did you used to help your parents out around their-- around the home. Victoria S.: Oh sure.

Victoria S.: I worked after school-- lot of odd jobs-- Gottlieb: Were these-- Victoria S.:--were babysitting and stuff like that.

Gottlieb: And if I interrupt you, you know, it's very important that you continue to tell me, because sometimes I think people are done talking, and I. I butt in. Victoria S.: It's okay. Gottlieb: Uh, were these jobs that you had after school, uh-- jobs that you earned some money at, or were-- Victoria S.: Yes. Yes. Gottlieb: So, uh, about what age did you start having these odd jobs?

Victoria S.: Oh, 12, 13 years old. Mostly babysitting and stuff like that. I made flowers and crosses for graves, and our school, they taught a girl how to do things to help themselves. And, uh, I did quite a bit of that. And writing for the elder people. Then we were taught to do this-- if they said they wanted something, we did it. And sometimes they give you and sometimes they didn't. We weren't allowed to ask. But if I was asked to babysit, or scrub a kitchen or do a bathroom, I was paid for that. Gottlieb: Mhm.

Gottlieb: What would you have been doing with the money that you earned at this time? Spending it on things that you needed for yourself? Victoria S.: Yes.

Victoria S.: I was taught to buy socks and whatever little things I needed as a girl.

Gottlieb: Mhm. You weren't turning the money over to your parents?

Victoria S.: No, I didn't have to. My mother and father didn't expect that. She taught me to use it for my benefit. They were welcome to it-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --if they wanted it. But we were never in that position. My family was in pretty good standard, and, uh, they never did that to me.

Gottlieb: Uh, what did you do when you stopped going to school?

Victoria S.: I'd taken a job as my father had died, and I'd taken the job in with the family.

Victoria S.: To-- taken my mother. She was sick at that time.

Gottlieb: Did you have to leave school before-- because your father had died? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: You would have gone on if he had been--

Victoria S.: Oh, yes.

Victoria S.: And I wished I could have finished.

Gottlieb: Mhm. What-- can you tell me about the job you got when you were done with school?

Victoria S.: Yes, it was-- I moved in with the lady. I've-- I could come back and forth and see my mother and I took care of her house and her kids.

Gottlieb: Was it a white woman?

Victoria S.: Yes.

Gottlieb: And did you live with her?

Victoria S.: Yes. I had my own room and stayed just as you do here in a lot of places. You wasn't getting very much, but it was the same thing.

Gottlieb: And did you used to go home on the weekends or did you just stay there when they're all--?

Victoria S.: It was-- I'd go home. When-- Some days, whenever she'd allowed me to go. Because you never know what day I could have off. It wasn't like it is now. You see, I had this day off and that's it. But at that time, if they wanted you to work every day, you worked every day or you didn't have a job. Gottlieb: Mm. Victoria S.: But I was with nice people and I was allowed to go home. And a lot of evenings I could go home and see my mother. She put a phone in so that I might talk to my mother. I was a little fortunate about that, and I was with a very nice family.

Gottlieb: And it was during these years that you used to visit your brother from time to time.

Victoria S.: No.

Victoria S.: I was married when I'd visit my brother, come up here. After I moved here, I visited my brother quite a bit.

Gottlieb: Did you continue to work at other folks' houses after you were married?

Victoria S.: Oh, yes.

Victoria S.: Yes, I worked. I was taught to work and I-- I just never have been a person sitting home on my hands.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me a little bit about your husband?

Victoria S.: I was married to a wonderful man. I was his second wife. We were together 38 years. I had a wonderful husband. I couldn't tell you anything but good about him.

Gottlieb: What kind of work was he doing in Port Arthur?

Victoria S.: He was in with the engineers. He was doing engineer work.

Gottlieb: At the same place your father worked.

Victoria S.: No, no. He was with Mr. Currie and Mr. Pickton. Pickton Towing Company. And then with Currie during the war times. And he never-- My husband never met my dad.

Gottlieb: Oh.

Gottlieb: Uh. How long did you stay in Port Arthur after you were married? That is, between the time you were married and the time you moved up here?

Victoria S.: I married in 1930 and come up here in 1942. Twelve years.

Gottlieb: Uh, and your husband was working as an engineer all the while that you were-- You lived with him in Port Arthur? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: Uh, can you tell me what exactly were the circumstances under which you decided to-- to leave Texas and come up here? I mean, why was-- what were the, uh, the, uh, decisions that you had to make at that particular time?

Victoria S.: I visit here after my mother and father died and I married my husband. I come up to visit my aunt, Mrs. Barnes, who lived on Oak Hill. I didn't know some of my people. I had cousins here then. And so they wanted to see my children and see me and that helped me to make up my mind what I wanted to do because I saw the conditions up here and I knew they were better and there would be better advantages for my children. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: And I went back home and talked it over with my husband and we-- and my aunt was very happy to have us to come. So we come up and stayed with them and they went back to Louisiana to bury, uh, to take care of his mother and father. And she's buried all three of them now. She's 84. She's in Lat Viet [ph]. And week after next, I'm going down and see her.

Gottlieb: Uh, do you know how long they had been living up here when you visited them?

Victoria S.: No, I don't know. But they'd been here quite a while. Deacon Jones was one of their best friends. All of them are in the same category.

Gottlieb: Uh-huh. Where is Oak Hill? I really don't know where--

Victoria S.: Out from East Pittsburgh.

Victoria S.: Just like you going to Crestas. That's that new highway out there. Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Uh-- uh. Was-- had you visited them many years before you decided to move or was it pretty close together?

Victoria S.: It was pretty close together. It was pretty close together. I visited her-- about a year, when I decided. I made a quick decision.

Gottlieb: Was that the only one of your parents' brothers or sisters who had-- who was living in the Pittsburgh area at that time?

Victoria S.: Yes.

Gottlieb: Do you know why she had moved up here with her husband? Do you know?

Victoria S.: Yes. They-- for better living conditions.

Victoria S.: My uncle worked in the Westinghouse. And uh, they were doing very well.

Gottlieb: Did you know that your husband would be able to find work when you moved up here-- Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Yes. Yes. Gottlieb: --or did you just take the chance? Okay.

Victoria S.: Yes, I knew because I looked around and studied things out when I was here.

Gottlieb: Did you ask your uncle at all whether he might be able to help you find anything?

Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Oh, yes. Yes.

Victoria S.: But when we came here, my husband and I went down to a creek [??]. We found out where-- how to go about getting employed, and we didn't have any trouble. Fact about, if I wouldn't have had the children, I could have gotten me a job.

Gottlieb: At the Westinghouse, too.

Victoria S.: Yeah.

Victoria S.: Because they were really hiring at that time. And it wasn't-- whether you had an education or not, you could get something to do, hm?

Gottlieb: What kind of job was was your husband put at when he was hired at Westinghouse?

Victoria S.: Crane man.

Gottlieb: A crane man. Victoria S.: Mm-hm. Gottlieb: So he operated a crane right there in the shop. Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, mhm. Gottlieb: Uh, do you know whether he had other jobs there, or did he stay on as a crane man at the time?

Victoria S.: He stayed on as a crane man.

Gottlieb: He neither moved up or down?

Victoria S.: No, he stayed on. I think he moved up in some ways, but I really couldn't know how to explain it to you. But he still was on the crane.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Um, how did you come up from Texas to Pittsburgh? Was it by train?

Gottlieb: Can you tell me the route you took from-- Pittsburgh to--

Victoria S.: Yes.

Victoria S.: Uh, we left Port Arthur and went to Texarkana and from Texarkana out from there, we laid over in Saint Louis, I think it is. And--

Gottlieb: It must have been a long trip.

Victoria S.: It was quite a long trip. I think at that time it was three days and two nights.

Gottlieb: Wow. Victoria S.: Mhm. Gottlieb: Did you take very many things with you when you moved? Victoria S.: No.

Victoria S.: Only clothing, bedclothes. And I sold everything I had. And a few of the memories, pictures and things like that, we didn't bother with trying to bring anything else.

Gottlieb: Did you ever go back to Port Arthur once you were living here?

Victoria S.: Oh, yes.

Victoria S.: I've been back home three times.

Gottlieb: But it--it wasn't on a regular basis that you used to go back.

Victoria S.: No, no.

Victoria S.: I went back visiting as my husband has people there. His brothers. Then I had a cousin there. I went back and buried him. Took a-- I also have a cousin there now.

Gottlieb: I thought you had told me that, uh, that after your-- After your mother died, you didn't have anybody there any longer to--

Victoria S.: I-- No.

Victoria S.: No, I have a cousin there. Uh, my, uh, first cousin. We were two sisters' children. She's in Orange, Texas. A Mrs. C.H.E.A [??].

Victoria S.: I'll be visiting her too.

Gottlieb: So you continued to do domestic work when you were-- when you were living in the Pittsburgh area?

Victoria S.: Oh, yes. I, uh-- My first job here was in the A&P restaurant on Ninth Street. Dishwasher. From dishwasher to cook. When that place would close, I cooked at Saint Thomas School with good recommendations. From Saint Thomas School, I went to the Braddock Hospital, ironing-- washing and ironing. I worked myself up to supervisor on the floors, first supervisor. From there I went to Carnegie Tech. Just put-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: From Tech I was promoted to cook in one of the sorority houses. 18 boys from all over the country. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: I left from there and, uh, I cooked a while in Columbia Hospital. I left there and went to Pitt because it was a better job, more money. And I had three girls to educate-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --and I worked there as a cook in the fall, practical nurse in the summer. And I started taking care of families in--

Victoria S.: Squirrel Hill.

Victoria S.: Mr. and Mrs. Bolton, owners of Jason's. I took care of the mother and father-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --and when I got ready to leave, they gave me more money. So I continued until their died. From them to the Solomons and from the Solomons to the other ones. And till I decided I'd have to start-- think about it. I was with the Solomons in 71 and I stopped when my husband taken sick so that I might take care of him-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --and since then I haven't did anymore because I have a disability and I work with senior citizens. I'm now 64 and my girls don't want me to. But sometime I wished I could. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: And I don't like sitting around.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Uh. How were you able to find the first job that you had when you came up to the Pittsburgh area?

Victoria S.: Through the Braddock Free Press.

Gottlieb: It was just by reading one ad?

Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] That made-- uh-huh, one ad.

Gottlieb: How old were your daughters at the time when you moved up?

Victoria S.: Oh.

Victoria S.: They were little fellas. I had-- one wasn't in school yet.

Victoria S.: Um.

Victoria S.: The baby girl is about five. The one next to her was six and Mary Ann was about eight. Gottlieb: Small children.

Victoria S.: Mhm.

Gottlieb: Go ahead. Victoria S.: Go ahead. Gottlieb: Um.

Gottlieb: Did you have somebody to look after them while you were working?

Victoria S.: Oh, yes. Yes. Gottlieb: Did you--

Victoria S.: The older one was always able to take care of a small one, and I had jobs that I could get back to them and see after them. And a very dear friend lived across the street from me who would see after them for me. The daddy would-- a lot of times he worked at night, while I worked in the day, we tried to arrange our jobs that way so we could take care of each other.

Gottlieb: How did doing the kind of work you did up here compare to the same kind of work in the South?

Victoria S.: It was easier and you got more money and you were more appreciated.

Gottlieb: Could you go into a bit of detail about that? What was easier about the work?

Victoria S.: Well, where you had men to help you with the heavy work, you'd have to do it yourself. Where you have, I didn't know, sweeping or nothing like that, but I have washed nine [??] on the washboard. I'm doing a furnace in Texas. I've scrubbed floors and porches on my knees and I didn't have to do that here.

Gottlieb: It wasn't expected of you.

Victoria S.: It wasn't expected. And-- The people here, they had better methods of doing things. The people in the South, they-- I don't think they really mean to be mean or anything, but that's the way they were taught and that's the way they expect you to do it.

Gottlieb: Do they have more modern conveniences up here? I mean, in terms of--

Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, they did. Yes, they did.

Gottlieb: When you say you were-- the work that you did was more appreciated up here than it was in the South, what do you mean by that?

Victoria S.: They paid you more. They treated you better. Because you could work in the South and they expected you to eat on the back porch. They wouldn't allow you-- However, I never had that type of thing. I've always been treated-- was right in the home with the family. But I know so many people that see a man to cut your grass. He'd have to sit outside on the wash shed or something and eat. You would never treat him like that up here.

Gottlieb: Were you fairly satisfied with the jobs that you had?

Victoria S.: Oh, yes.

Victoria S.: If I had a job up here I didn't like, I'd pretty soon find me something better. I was always looking for something better.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Did your-- did your husband used to talk very much about his job at Westinghouse?

Victoria S.: He liked it very much. He got along with the fellas very well. He also worked very hard in Texas. During the war time, he would do such as scaling boilers in the ships. And this-- the engineering company, he-- however, he was foreman over the group and he knew what would be done and how it was done. But he was never paid what he was worth. Gottlieb: Hm. Victoria S.: I believe today some of the things that he did helped to cause his death, he had lung cancer and that was from inhaling all that stuff. If you could see him when he would come home black all over, smelling like oil and coke and-- then he got up here, was really the time that he could spend some time with his family. The children just knew he was a man that bring candy home a lot of times. He was always gone. Sometime two weeks at a time, three and four days at a time. Come in and have dinner with us and sit a few minutes and they call him out again. It was that type of thing. And if you wanted to live, that's what he had to do. He was able to endure as family. And when we come here and the children know this was Dad and spend some time with Dad.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: See. It was different. Gottlieb: He was a foreman in the South. Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: Did he ever become-- Did he ever get a position equal to that up here?

Victoria S.: I dunno. I wouldn't say-- no. He did his job well and what he had, and I don't think he pushed for anything else. He had worked so hard in his lifetime. Then when he retired from Roth Rug Company, he was bumped around in the Westinghouse and we just decided he'd find something else to do. So he went to Roth Rug Company and I told him to stay. It wasn't how much he made, it was how we managed what he made, and I would go to work and help him.

Gottlieb: You mentioned that your husband got bumped around and was that the phrase you used? Did he get demoted or did he get switched from department to department--

Victoria S.: No. Whenever they were ready to hire, they'd take the younger men out and they call that bumpin. And if he was bumped, he had a lower position. At one time, he had to take the broom-- Gottlieb: Mm. Victoria S.: Broom sweep in the Westinghouse, you know-- Gottlieb: Uh-huh. Victoria S.: --and it continued until they bumped him, cleaned out because he wasn't old enough, you know, didn't have enough seniority.

Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Seniority. And this is because they were laying people off? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: He finally got laid off there. Victoria S.: Yes. Yes. Gottlieb: Do you remember what year that was? Victoria S.: No, I'm not sure. Gottlieb: Was it just after the war or had he stayed there for a long time?

Victoria S.: No, he didn't-- He didn't stay there. My husband worked there, I guess, about six years-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --at the most, you know, and he was called one of the younger men. And at that time, all in that category was-- the fellas was coming back from the war and they had to let them go.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: And then he went to work at Roth Rug? Victoria S.: That's right. Gottlieb: What kind of job did he do there?

Victoria S.: Night watchman.

Victoria S.: And then he went in and was-- Mr. Roth took him down and made a police, city police out of him for that area because it was too dangerous walking around with a gas gun. So he was a city police taking care of the area of Roth Rug Company.

Gottlieb: Do you remember where you stayed in Braddock when you first came up in 1942?

Victoria S.: I was living on Oak Hill at that time. Gottlieb: With your aunt? Victoria S.: 309 Dixon Avenue. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me the different places that you had lived with your family? From Oak Hill?

Victoria S.: I moved from Dixon Avenue to Oak Hill at 109 Elder Street. From Elder Street to Braddock Avenue, 1212 Braddock. From there across the street to 1211 because they tore that place down. From there to 870 Braddock Avenue. And then here. 11B Maple View Terrace and right around the vicinity of Braddock.

Gottlieb: Did you ever own any of the places that you stayed in?

Victoria S.: No.

Gottlieb: Did you want to? And it wasn't possible?

Victoria S.: No, it wasn't possible. And if I would own a place, I wouldn't want to own either one of them.

Gottlieb: Why is that?

Victoria S.: Because I would like to have had a place out-- a home with the yard. And you see, all these places were apartments.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Did the places that you lived at-- Were they all in Black neighborhoods? Strictly speaking, were they segregated?

Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] No. No. Well, here in Pennsylvania? Gottlieb: Yes. Victoria S.: No, it wasn't all Black.

Gottlieb: They were always mixed?

Victoria S.: Always mixed.

Gottlieb: Would you say that the, uh, the friends that you've made in Pennsylvania, were they people that you met while you were at work, on your jobs?

Victoria S.: Yes.

Gottlieb: Those where your good friends have come from.

Victoria S.: That's right.

Victoria S.: On the job and in church and the Eastern Stars and in social work.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Did you ever use to socialize with the other women that you worked with on the job? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: For a regular time? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: What kind of things would you do?

Victoria S.: Well, we'd have parties, Christmas parties, birthday parties. Little get togethers--

Gottlieb: Would this be--

Victoria S.: --on holidays.

Gottlieb: Would this be during a break on the job, or is this all kind of-- off the job?

Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] No, we planned special times off the job.

Gottlieb: Um. I wonder if you, after you moved up to Pennsylvania, whether you noticed any difference, particularly between Black people who had come up from the South and those who had been born in Pennsylvania and raised here?

Victoria S.: Yes.

Gottlieb: Could you describe to me what kind of difference?

Victoria S.: Yes, there were-- uh, different in speech and the actions, and particularly in the independence.

Gottlieb: What do you mean by that?

Victoria S.: Well, children that were born here, they were independent and they didn't seem to be-- to have that defeat feeling like the ones come from the South. They-- they look at a child from the South and it was like something in the magazine they never seen or never heard speak before. And it was really something we'll get, to see the difference in how the children was. I didn't have that problem with mine, but there were so many other kids who spoke broken French.

Victoria S.: And just really wasn't taught to speak. And they had that Southern drawl and it sounded funny to the other children. They laughed at them. Made fun of them, you know?

Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Would you say, generally speaking, that those who-- Black people who had come up from the South were looked down upon by those who-- just generally speaking--

Victoria S.: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I've seen it on the job, in the schools, and some could take it and some couldn't. And-- and they particularly just saying you're from the South, it made a big difference-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --but it didn't affect me and didn't affect my children because I taught them how to quote [??] with it. That's one of the problems. The children had to fare on they own. Sometimes the mothers and fathers don't even know what's happening 'cause they didn't have any interest in them going to school or seeing about them.

Victoria S.: But I did.

Gottlieb: You joined a church in Braddock.

Victoria S.: In Rankin. Gottlieb: In Rankin? Victoria S.: I attended church in Braddock, the Methodist church here. But when I found the church of my choice, I joined Triedstone Baptist Church in Rankin.

Gottlieb: Had you been raised as a Methodist?

Victoria S.: Yes. Yes.

Victoria S.: But I preferred Triedstone here because it was more like my church at home. This was so different here. And I particularly just loved that little church and I joined it.

Gottlieb: What was the difference between the the churches here and the church that you had been brought up in in Port Arthur?

Victoria S.: Well.

Victoria S.: I really-- I hate to criticize the church and in saying what I felt about it, I feel like I would criticize them, but I just didn't feel at home there. I wasn't satisfied there and I didn't think I was getting-- getting the spiritual teaching that I expected and going to the Triedstone it was more like at home. Maybe that was really the main reason. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: The people there were more like home people and that had a lot to do with it.

Gottlieb: This is something that interests me very much because it's part of the process of settling down in a place to join a congregation. So if you could tell me what you mean by the people at Triedstone seeming more like the people at home, it would be a big help to me.

Victoria S.: Because I think it was more Southern people there than in the Methodist church. A lot of the people in the Methodist church were people raised here and they had their own type of feeling, their own way of serving God. And it was just different from at home. Gottlieb: Mhm.

Victoria S.: Because in the South you feel the spirit. You know, God is there and you don't feel like saying Amen or singing out. And it's different in the Methodist church.

Victoria S.: Triedstone. Oh, yes. Yes.

Gottlieb: Who was the the pastor at the time?

Victoria S.: Reverend J.C. Martin at the time I joined, because-- and he still is, because I didn't join right away. When I first come here. I worked and I had the type of jobs that I had to be there on Sunday. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: I didn't have the money, so I sent my children and my husband and I worked Sunday, Monday and all whenever we had to.

Gottlieb: Do you know whether Reverend Martin was from the South?

Victoria S.: Yes, he is. But I can't tell you exactly where. I don't know where. But he is from the South.

Gottlieb: Did you ever-- did you ever know whether the members of Triedstone were from any particular part of the South? Did they seem to come from any particular state?

Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Yes. Yes, they had quite a few from the South. Uh, I think some from Alabama, Georgia and all those places. I hear them talk about it, but you know, I don't know personally.

Gottlieb: Mhm.

Victoria S.: We have quite a few people in the church from the South.

Gottlieb: The reason I ask is because I have a hunch that some congregations in-- in the Pittsburgh area might have been formed basic-- mainly from people, even from one particular state. It's just an idea. I'm not sure it's true or not.

Victoria S.: No, no. This is a mixed congregation. There are even children baptized in that church. And young ladies has come up and married in that church. Were born right in Rankin and Braddock. No, it's not that type of thing.

Gottlieb: How did you come to be going to Triedstone in the first place? Were you just going around to different churches, trying them on?

Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] No, I am a member of the Eastern Star, chapter 96, and we have our yearly program at each church. I was sermon, and I went there and I enjoyed that sermon. And I went back and I went back again. And on the fifth time I joined and I enjoyed the services and-- and the people, they were just lovely. They-- they were so united and made you feel so welcome and at home. And I felt that it was a place I wanted to be. You know, but.

Gottlieb: Is-- is the Eastern Star a church organization or is it independent from the church?

Victoria S.: It's independent from the church. It's large. It's a group of women-- Branch of women from the Masons. Masonic.

Gottlieb: What kind of activities do they do? Charitable, maybe?

Victoria S.: Charitable. Charitable.

Gottlieb: Had you b-

Gottlieb: Did you belong to the Eastern Star in Texas?

Victoria S.: No, my mother did.

Victoria S.: And my father's Masonic.

Gottlieb: Uh-huh. Did your husband belong to any fraternal?

Victoria S.: No.

Victoria S.: He was an Odd Fellow at one time in Texas, but he didn't keep it up.

Gottlieb: Were you active in church groups? Church organizations?

Victoria S.: Yes.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me which groups you participated?

Victoria S.: I've been a nurse in Triedstone, and I had to let that go since my husband was sick and I am crippled. And since he's not here to take me around like he usually do, I just had to let some of the things go. And anything that the nurses and in my large, that's just like a social group. We do things and parties and have different types of things to raise money to help those who are in the need. And working here with the senior citizens, I do quite a bit. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Is Eastern Star today made up mostly of women about your age, or have younger women been joining all along.

Victoria S.: Younger women, younger women. We have different groups in different vicinities and they-- it have run by chapters. So there is just-- I couldn't say it's more young or old. It's a mixture of every-- Gottlieb: Mhm.

Victoria S.: --Stage in life.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Were you ever an officer of the-- of the Eastern Star?

Victoria S.: Yes, I was the treasurer for eight years.

Gottlieb: What--what year did you join? Do you remember?

Victoria S.: Oh, my. I guess around-- I've been in the Eastern Stars for the past 14 years, I'm sure.

Gottlieb: Well, gotten to the end of the questions that I had to ask you. But if you think that I've left out anything that it'd be important for me to know in the work that I'm doing, I'd appreciate you telling me, but otherwise I have no other questions.

Victoria S.: Well, it's one thing I can say I'm very proud of my move because it benefited me in many ways. My girls are now raised, educated, holding good jobs. One is working for the state, the other one is an executive secretary in the Westinghouse.

Victoria S.: And the other one passed a year ago. But she was a nurse in Tacoma, Washington. Gottlieb: Oh. Victoria S.: So they are well educated and able and raising nice family. And I'm a mother of 13 grandchildren-- Gottlieb: [laughs] My goodness. Victoria S.: --grandmother, and the mothers really are beating their children in the right way. The father has a dead girl's children, but they are doing fine.

Gottlieb: Wow. One question I just remember I didn't ask you. I never asked you what your maiden name was.

Victoria S.: Hurst. Gottlieb: Hurst? Victoria S.: Victoria Hurst. Hurst.

Gottlieb: Well, thank you very much.

Victoria S.: That's all right. It's a pleasure.