WEBVTT 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:42.000 Peter Gottlieb: This is an interview with Mrs. Victoria S. of Maple View Terrace Apartments. Apartment 11B in Braddock, Pennsylvania, recorded on May 25th, 1976, at Mrs. Victoria S.' apartment. Can you tell me where your parents were born? 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:48.000 Victoria S.: My father was born in Jeanerette, Louisiana, and my mother in New Iberia, Louisiana. 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:51.000 Gottlieb: Do you know where your grandparents came from? 00:00:51.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Victoria S.: New Iberia. Avery's Island. My grandmother, I think. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: But it was in that area around New Iberia. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:02.000 Gottlieb: Did you know them very well? Your grandparents? 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:16.000 Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, I knew my mother's mother, but I didn't know the father. And I knew of-- no, I didn't know my father's people too well. They were in Jeanerette. 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:19.000 Gottlieb: Do you know very much about what kind of life they had? 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:21.000 Victoria S.: A beautiful life, from what I can understand. 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:23.000 Gottlieb: What kind of work were they involved with? 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:42.000 Victoria S.: My grandfather on my father's side was a German overseer there. On my mother's side, her father, I don't know too well, but I do know my grandmother said they worked on Avery's Island. 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.000 Gottlieb: Was that farming that they were doing? 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:58.000 Victoria S.: More like housekeeping and raising hot peppers? This company, they put out this hot sauce. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: They had a part of that. They worked in that. 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:01.000 Gottlieb: Well, what kind of work did your father do? 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Victoria S.: My father was an engineer in Port Arthur, Texas, out in Sabine Pass at a fish factory, which doesn't operate anymore. 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:13.000 Gottlieb: He was working on a railroad then? 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:24.000 Victoria S.: No, no. This was a fish factory. He was an engineer. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. Victoria S.: Out taking care of the engines in this factory. My mother was a beautician. Gottlieb: Huh. 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:25.000 Gottlieb: She had her own business there? 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:34.000 Victoria S.: Uh, from house to house. Gottlieb: Uh-huh. Victoria S.: She had taken this up in New Orleans, Louisiana. Gottlieb: Hm. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:38.000 Gottlieb: How many brothers and sisters did you have? 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:40.000 Victoria S.: It was 13 of us. Gottlieb: Mhm. 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:42.000 Gottlieb: Are you the oldest? Youngest? 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:43.000 Victoria S.: I'm the baby. 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:45.000 Gottlieb: You're the youngest of 13? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: Oh man. 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:48.000 Victoria S.: And all the rest are dead now. 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:51.000 Gottlieb: Did they all grow up to be adults or-- 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:55.000 Victoria S.: No, only one. My brother and myself, see, two. 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:58.000 Gottlieb: And the rest of them died? 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:03.000 Victoria S.: Died at birth, or right after birth. A year after. 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:11.000 Gottlieb: When you were growing up, did anyone else live with you and your parents? Any relatives? Victoria S.: Yes. Yes. 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:13.000 Victoria S.: Cousin. 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:27.000 Gottlieb: Just one cousin. So, besides you and your brother, there was-- Victoria S.: That's all. Gottlieb: Did, uh, did your parents or any of your relatives come-- move north? 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:30.000 Victoria S.: No, none but myself. 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:31.000 Gottlieb: You were the only one. 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:36.000 Victoria S.: Well, I could say yes 'cause my brother did. Yes. Myself and my brother. 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:38.000 Gottlieb: Did you come at the same time, or-- 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:40.000 Victoria S.: No. No, he was before me. 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Gottlieb: Where did he move to? 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:44.000 Victoria S.: Uh, New York. 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:46.000 Gottlieb: Do you know why he-- he decided to leave? 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:52.000 Victoria S.: He wanted better conditions, better work, a better living. 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:55.000 Gottlieb: And he left before you did? Victoria S.: Oh, yes. Gottlieb: Quite a few years before? 00:03:55.000 --> 00:04:02.000 Victoria S.: Quite a few. Quite a few. Oh, yes. He left when I was in school. 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.000 Gottlieb: Was he quite a bit older than you were? 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:12.000 Victoria S.: Oh, yes. Gottlieb: Mm. Victoria S.: My brother was-- Well, I guess he was about 30 years older than me. 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:22.000 Gottlieb: Hm. Wow. Did you ever visit him there? Victoria S.: Yes. Can you tell me something about those visits and what you thought of New York City? 00:04:22.000 --> 00:05:09.000 Victoria S.: Oh, I thought it was beautiful. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: And, uh, he also moved out at New Rochelle, and I love it there. My brother and I were very close. Anything nice, he wanted me to have a part of it. Gottlieb: Mm. Victoria S.: And, uh, it was very educational. You saw things you never saw before. It really made me know what I wanted to do after my kids-- I went back home. I felt that I wanted something better for them, and that helped me to decide. Now, after I lost my mother, I had nothing to stay back there for. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: So I brought my children here with naught. And my husband would have been missin' us. 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:15.000 Victoria S.: And we just decided I wanted something better for my girls and for myself. 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:23.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. Do you remember anything in particular that you saw in New York City that made you feel like it was a possibility for you doing better for yourself or-- 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:46.000 Victoria S.: Oh, yes. I saw the betterment of the other people, and I saw some people that-- I thought New York was just for the rich or the big or the great. I saw some people in the worse shape than I was in, and I knew I could make it. 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:47.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:51.000 Gottlieb: How much schooling did you get in Texas? 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:54.000 Victoria S.: Ninth grade. 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:57.000 Gottlieb: Were you born in Louisiana and your parents later moved to Texas? 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.000 Victoria S.: I was born in Texas. 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:04.000 Gottlieb: Can you tell me something about why your parents left Louisiana and went to Texas? 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:09.000 Victoria S.: No, I really wouldn't know why. I really wouldn't. I don't know. 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:15.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. Do you know whether or not they moved after they were married or did they meet each other in Texas? 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:21.000 Victoria S.: My mother and father met in Texas. 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:31.000 Gottlieb: What do you remember about the the schooling that you got at that time in terms of the conditions and, uh, the buildings and the teachers and-- 00:06:31.000 --> 00:07:27.000 Victoria S.: Oh, I come from a very nice school, uh, very clean, uh, and the children were well taught as far as the learning went. We weren't allowed to go to school with the white. We went and we went to Lincoln High School. Our principal was a Christian man, very strict. He believed in the strap and he used it. I enjoyed my school life, but, uh, it just didn't give me what I wanted for my children. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: I'm sorry I couldn't finish school, but I had to go to work. My father died, but my school life, I feel now, was in many ways better than school is now because we had better behavior. We didn't go to jail. Our fathers and mothers felt like they-- they were the boss. And you listened when you were spoken to. My school life was beautiful. 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:31.000 Gottlieb: Was this school in the town itself or out in the country? 00:07:31.000 --> 00:08:49.000 Victoria S.: No, it was in-- in town. Port Arthur is-- isn't-- It's the largest refinery in the world, is there. And it's not a country. It's a perfect little town. However, there was-- cross this track and over the track, up the track, up was where the white lived and across the track where the colored maids. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: And everybody had-- They knew their place. They knew this was your school. You had no business in the white school. You know, this was your show. You didn't go in the white. And in many ways it was better than it is here, because they say, you're welcome. But a lot of places, they don't want you here. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: You know? And, uh, it was beautiful. However, I was raised uptown with the white, my mother and father worked and lived on premises from one family for 22 years. Gottlieb: They rented? Victoria S.: No, they were given their house because they worked for these people. And, uh, my father worked in a machine shop and my mother kept house and cooked. So I really, uh, was in the white neighborhood most of my life. I-- even when I started to school, I had to go across the tracks. I stayed with my grandmother at that time. 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:51.000 Gottlieb: She lived in Port Arthur as well? 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:52.000 Victoria S.: Yes. Yes. 00:08:52.000 --> 00:09:08.000 Gottlieb: Um, did the schools for Black people at that time run as long as the schools for white or were they-- Victoria S.: Oh, yes. Yes. Mhm. Gottlieb: So you went to school about the same month of the year as children go to school now. 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.000 Victoria S.: Oh yes. Mhm. 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:18.000 Gottlieb: Uh, did you used to help your parents out around their-- around the home. Victoria S.: Oh sure. 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:25.000 Victoria S.: I worked after school-- lot of odd jobs-- Gottlieb: Were these-- Victoria S.:--were babysitting and stuff like that. 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:45.000 Gottlieb: And if I interrupt you, you know, it's very important that you continue to tell me, because sometimes I think people are done talking, and I. I butt in. Victoria S.: It's okay. Gottlieb: Uh, were these jobs that you had after school, uh-- jobs that you earned some money at, or were-- Victoria S.: Yes. Yes. Gottlieb: So, uh, about what age did you start having these odd jobs? 00:09:45.000 --> 00:10:26.000 Victoria S.: Oh, 12, 13 years old. Mostly babysitting and stuff like that. I made flowers and crosses for graves, and our school, they taught a girl how to do things to help themselves. And, uh, I did quite a bit of that. And writing for the elder people. Then we were taught to do this-- if they said they wanted something, we did it. And sometimes they give you and sometimes they didn't. We weren't allowed to ask. But if I was asked to babysit, or scrub a kitchen or do a bathroom, I was paid for that. Gottlieb: Mhm. 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:34.000 Gottlieb: What would you have been doing with the money that you earned at this time? Spending it on things that you needed for yourself? Victoria S.: Yes. 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:40.000 Victoria S.: I was taught to buy socks and whatever little things I needed as a girl. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:42.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. You weren't turning the money over to your parents? 00:10:42.000 --> 00:11:02.000 Victoria S.: No, I didn't have to. My mother and father didn't expect that. She taught me to use it for my benefit. They were welcome to it-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --if they wanted it. But we were never in that position. My family was in pretty good standard, and, uh, they never did that to me. 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:07.000 Gottlieb: Uh, what did you do when you stopped going to school? 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:13.000 Victoria S.: I'd taken a job as my father had died, and I'd taken the job in with the family. 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:16.000 Victoria S.: To-- taken my mother. She was sick at that time. 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:21.000 Gottlieb: Did you have to leave school before-- because your father had died? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: You would have gone on if he had been-- 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:22.000 Victoria S.: Oh, yes. 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:25.000 Victoria S.: And I wished I could have finished. 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:28.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. What-- can you tell me about the job you got when you were done with school? 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:39.000 Victoria S.: Yes, it was-- I moved in with the lady. I've-- I could come back and forth and see my mother and I took care of her house and her kids. 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:40.000 Gottlieb: Was it a white woman? 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:42.000 Victoria S.: Yes. 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:44.000 Gottlieb: And did you live with her? 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:56.000 Victoria S.: Yes. I had my own room and stayed just as you do here in a lot of places. You wasn't getting very much, but it was the same thing. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:00.000 Gottlieb: And did you used to go home on the weekends or did you just stay there when they're all--? 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:36.000 Victoria S.: It was-- I'd go home. When-- Some days, whenever she'd allowed me to go. Because you never know what day I could have off. It wasn't like it is now. You see, I had this day off and that's it. But at that time, if they wanted you to work every day, you worked every day or you didn't have a job. Gottlieb: Mm. Victoria S.: But I was with nice people and I was allowed to go home. And a lot of evenings I could go home and see my mother. She put a phone in so that I might talk to my mother. I was a little fortunate about that, and I was with a very nice family. 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:40.000 Gottlieb: And it was during these years that you used to visit your brother from time to time. 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.000 Victoria S.: No. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:51.000 Victoria S.: I was married when I'd visit my brother, come up here. After I moved here, I visited my brother quite a bit. 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:56.000 Gottlieb: Did you continue to work at other folks' houses after you were married? 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:58.000 Victoria S.: Oh, yes. 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:07.000 Victoria S.: Yes, I worked. I was taught to work and I-- I just never have been a person sitting home on my hands. 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:09.000 Gottlieb: Can you tell me a little bit about your husband? 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:23.000 Victoria S.: I was married to a wonderful man. I was his second wife. We were together 38 years. I had a wonderful husband. I couldn't tell you anything but good about him. 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:26.000 Gottlieb: What kind of work was he doing in Port Arthur? 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:30.000 Victoria S.: He was in with the engineers. He was doing engineer work. 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.000 Gottlieb: At the same place your father worked. 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:47.000 Victoria S.: No, no. He was with Mr. Currie and Mr. Pickton. Pickton Towing Company. And then with Currie during the war times. And he never-- My husband never met my dad. 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:50.000 Gottlieb: Oh. 00:13:50.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Gottlieb: Uh. How long did you stay in Port Arthur after you were married? That is, between the time you were married and the time you moved up here? 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:10.000 Victoria S.: I married in 1930 and come up here in 1942. Twelve years. 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:35.000 Gottlieb: Uh, and your husband was working as an engineer all the while that you were-- You lived with him in Port Arthur? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: Uh, can you tell me what exactly were the circumstances under which you decided to-- to leave Texas and come up here? I mean, why was-- what were the, uh, the, uh, decisions that you had to make at that particular time? 00:14:35.000 --> 00:15:38.000 Victoria S.: I visit here after my mother and father died and I married my husband. I come up to visit my aunt, Mrs. Barnes, who lived on Oak Hill. I didn't know some of my people. I had cousins here then. And so they wanted to see my children and see me and that helped me to make up my mind what I wanted to do because I saw the conditions up here and I knew they were better and there would be better advantages for my children. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: And I went back home and talked it over with my husband and we-- and my aunt was very happy to have us to come. So we come up and stayed with them and they went back to Louisiana to bury, uh, to take care of his mother and father. And she's buried all three of them now. She's 84. She's in Lat Viet [ph]. And week after next, I'm going down and see her. 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:44.000 Gottlieb: Uh, do you know how long they had been living up here when you visited them? 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:54.000 Victoria S.: No, I don't know. But they'd been here quite a while. Deacon Jones was one of their best friends. All of them are in the same category. 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:57.000 Gottlieb: Uh-huh. Where is Oak Hill? I really don't know where-- 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.000 Victoria S.: Out from East Pittsburgh. 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:05.000 Victoria S.: Just like you going to Crestas. That's that new highway out there. Uh huh. 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:15.000 Gottlieb: Uh-- uh. Was-- had you visited them many years before you decided to move or was it pretty close together? 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:25.000 Victoria S.: It was pretty close together. It was pretty close together. I visited her-- about a year, when I decided. I made a quick decision. 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:32.000 Gottlieb: Was that the only one of your parents' brothers or sisters who had-- who was living in the Pittsburgh area at that time? 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:34.000 Victoria S.: Yes. 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:37.000 Gottlieb: Do you know why she had moved up here with her husband? Do you know? 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:43.000 Victoria S.: Yes. They-- for better living conditions. 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:51.000 Victoria S.: My uncle worked in the Westinghouse. And uh, they were doing very well. 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:57.000 Gottlieb: Did you know that your husband would be able to find work when you moved up here-- Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Yes. Yes. Gottlieb: --or did you just take the chance? Okay. 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:02.000 Victoria S.: Yes, I knew because I looked around and studied things out when I was here. 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:06.000 Gottlieb: Did you ask your uncle at all whether he might be able to help you find anything? 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.000 Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Oh, yes. Yes. 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Victoria S.: But when we came here, my husband and I went down to a creek [??]. We found out where-- how to go about getting employed, and we didn't have any trouble. Fact about, if I wouldn't have had the children, I could have gotten me a job. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:26.000 Gottlieb: At the Westinghouse, too. 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:27.000 Victoria S.: Yeah. 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:37.000 Victoria S.: Because they were really hiring at that time. And it wasn't-- whether you had an education or not, you could get something to do, hm? 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:41.000 Gottlieb: What kind of job was was your husband put at when he was hired at Westinghouse? 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.000 Victoria S.: Crane man. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:54.000 Gottlieb: A crane man. Victoria S.: Mm-hm. Gottlieb: So he operated a crane right there in the shop. Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, mhm. Gottlieb: Uh, do you know whether he had other jobs there, or did he stay on as a crane man at the time? 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:55.000 Victoria S.: He stayed on as a crane man. 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.000 Gottlieb: He neither moved up or down? 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:09.000 Victoria S.: No, he stayed on. I think he moved up in some ways, but I really couldn't know how to explain it to you. But he still was on the crane. 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:16.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. Um, how did you come up from Texas to Pittsburgh? Was it by train? 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:20.000 Victoria S.: By train. Gottlieb: Can you tell me the route you took from-- Pittsburgh to-- 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:21.000 Victoria S.: Yes. 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:33.000 Victoria S.: Uh, we left Port Arthur and went to Texarkana and from Texarkana out from there, we laid over in Saint Louis, I think it is. And-- 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:35.000 Gottlieb: It must have been a long trip. 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:44.000 Victoria S.: It was quite a long trip. I think at that time it was three days and two nights. 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:47.000 Gottlieb: Wow. Victoria S.: Mhm. Gottlieb: Did you take very many things with you when you moved? Victoria S.: No. 00:18:47.000 --> 00:19:00.000 Victoria S.: Only clothing, bedclothes. And I sold everything I had. And a few of the memories, pictures and things like that, we didn't bother with trying to bring anything else. 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.000 Gottlieb: Did you ever go back to Port Arthur once you were living here? 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:04.000 Victoria S.: Oh, yes. 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:06.000 Victoria S.: I've been back home three times. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:10.000 Gottlieb: But it--it wasn't on a regular basis that you used to go back. 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:11.000 Victoria S.: No, no. 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:27.000 Victoria S.: I went back visiting as my husband has people there. His brothers. Then I had a cousin there. I went back and buried him. Took a-- I also have a cousin there now. 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:35.000 Gottlieb: I thought you had told me that, uh, that after your-- After your mother died, you didn't have anybody there any longer to-- 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:37.000 Victoria S.: I-- No. 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:49.000 Victoria S.: No, I have a cousin there. Uh, my, uh, first cousin. We were two sisters' children. She's in Orange, Texas. A Mrs. C.H.E.A [??]. 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:57.000 Victoria S.: I'll be visiting her too. 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:03.000 Gottlieb: So you continued to do domestic work when you were-- when you were living in the Pittsburgh area? 00:20:03.000 --> 00:21:24.000 Victoria S.: Oh, yes. I, uh-- My first job here was in the A&P restaurant on Ninth Street. Dishwasher. From dishwasher to cook. When that place would close, I cooked at Saint Thomas School with good recommendations. From Saint Thomas School, I went to the Braddock Hospital, ironing-- washing and ironing. I worked myself up to supervisor on the floors, first supervisor. From there I went to Carnegie Tech. Just put-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: From Tech I was promoted to cook in one of the sorority houses. 18 boys from all over the country. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: I left from there and, uh, I cooked a while in Columbia Hospital. I left there and went to Pitt because it was a better job, more money. And I had three girls to educate-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --and I worked there as a cook in the fall, practical nurse in the summer. And I started taking care of families in-- 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.000 Victoria S.: Squirrel Hill. 00:21:26.000 --> 00:22:13.000 Victoria S.: Mr. and Mrs. Bolton, owners of Jason's. I took care of the mother and father-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --and when I got ready to leave, they gave me more money. So I continued until their died. From them to the Solomons and from the Solomons to the other ones. And till I decided I'd have to start-- think about it. I was with the Solomons in 71 and I stopped when my husband taken sick so that I might take care of him-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --and since then I haven't did anymore because I have a disability and I work with senior citizens. I'm now 64 and my girls don't want me to. But sometime I wished I could. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: And I don't like sitting around. 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:23.000 Gottlieb: Yeah. Uh. How were you able to find the first job that you had when you came up to the Pittsburgh area? 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:26.000 Victoria S.: Through the Braddock Free Press. 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:28.000 Gottlieb: It was just by reading one ad? 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:29.000 Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] That made-- uh-huh, one ad. 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:33.000 Gottlieb: How old were your daughters at the time when you moved up? 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Victoria S.: Oh. 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:42.000 Victoria S.: They were little fellas. I had-- one wasn't in school yet. 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.000 Victoria S.: Um. 00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:58.000 Victoria S.: The baby girl is about five. The one next to her was six and Mary Ann was about eight. Gottlieb: Small children. 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:01.000 Victoria S.: Mhm. 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:04.000 Gottlieb: Go ahead. Victoria S.: Go ahead. Gottlieb: Um. 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.000 Gottlieb: Did you have somebody to look after them while you were working? 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:10.000 Victoria S.: Oh, yes. Yes. Gottlieb: Did you-- 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:37.000 Victoria S.: The older one was always able to take care of a small one, and I had jobs that I could get back to them and see after them. And a very dear friend lived across the street from me who would see after them for me. The daddy would-- a lot of times he worked at night, while I worked in the day, we tried to arrange our jobs that way so we could take care of each other. 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:44.000 Gottlieb: How did doing the kind of work you did up here compare to the same kind of work in the South? 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:48.000 Victoria S.: It was easier and you got more money and you were more appreciated. 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:53.000 Gottlieb: Could you go into a bit of detail about that? What was easier about the work? 00:23:53.000 --> 00:24:19.000 Victoria S.: Well, where you had men to help you with the heavy work, you'd have to do it yourself. Where you have, I didn't know, sweeping or nothing like that, but I have washed nine [??] on the washboard. I'm doing a furnace in Texas. I've scrubbed floors and porches on my knees and I didn't have to do that here. 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:21.000 Gottlieb: It wasn't expected of you. 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:40.000 Victoria S.: It wasn't expected. And-- The people here, they had better methods of doing things. The people in the South, they-- I don't think they really mean to be mean or anything, but that's the way they were taught and that's the way they expect you to do it. 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.000 Gottlieb: Do they have more modern conveniences up here? I mean, in terms of-- 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.000 Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, they did. Yes, they did. 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:54.000 Gottlieb: When you say you were-- the work that you did was more appreciated up here than it was in the South, what do you mean by that? 00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:23.000 Victoria S.: They paid you more. They treated you better. Because you could work in the South and they expected you to eat on the back porch. They wouldn't allow you-- However, I never had that type of thing. I've always been treated-- was right in the home with the family. But I know so many people that see a man to cut your grass. He'd have to sit outside on the wash shed or something and eat. You would never treat him like that up here. 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:26.000 Gottlieb: Were you fairly satisfied with the jobs that you had? 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:27.000 Victoria S.: Oh, yes. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:36.000 Victoria S.: If I had a job up here I didn't like, I'd pretty soon find me something better. I was always looking for something better. 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:42.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. Did your-- did your husband used to talk very much about his job at Westinghouse? 00:25:42.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Victoria S.: Oh, yes. Victoria S.: He liked it very much. He got along with the fellas very well. He also worked very hard in Texas. During the war time, he would do such as scaling boilers in the ships. And this-- the engineering company, he-- however, he was foreman over the group and he knew what would be done and how it was done. But he was never paid what he was worth. Gottlieb: Hm. Victoria S.: I believe today some of the things that he did helped to cause his death, he had lung cancer and that was from inhaling all that stuff. If you could see him when he would come home black all over, smelling like oil and coke and-- then he got up here, was really the time that he could spend some time with his family. The children just knew he was a man that bring candy home a lot of times. He was always gone. Sometime two weeks at a time, three and four days at a time. Come in and have dinner with us and sit a few minutes and they call him out again. It was that type of thing. And if you wanted to live, that's what he had to do. He was able to endure as family. And when we come here and the children know this was Dad and spend some time with Dad. 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:14.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: See. It was different. Gottlieb: He was a foreman in the South. Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: Did he ever become-- Did he ever get a position equal to that up here? 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:49.000 Victoria S.: I dunno. I wouldn't say-- no. He did his job well and what he had, and I don't think he pushed for anything else. He had worked so hard in his lifetime. Then when he retired from Roth Rug Company, he was bumped around in the Westinghouse and we just decided he'd find something else to do. So he went to Roth Rug Company and I told him to stay. It wasn't how much he made, it was how we managed what he made, and I would go to work and help him. 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:57.000 Gottlieb: You mentioned that your husband got bumped around and was that the phrase you used? Did he get demoted or did he get switched from department to department-- 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:24.000 Victoria S.: No. Whenever they were ready to hire, they'd take the younger men out and they call that bumpin. And if he was bumped, he had a lower position. At one time, he had to take the broom-- Gottlieb: Mm. Victoria S.: Broom sweep in the Westinghouse, you know-- Gottlieb: Uh-huh. Victoria S.: --and it continued until they bumped him, cleaned out because he wasn't old enough, you know, didn't have enough seniority. 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:36.000 Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Seniority. And this is because they were laying people off? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: He finally got laid off there. Victoria S.: Yes. Yes. Gottlieb: Do you remember what year that was? Victoria S.: No, I'm not sure. Gottlieb: Was it just after the war or had he stayed there for a long time? 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:51.000 Victoria S.: No, he didn't-- He didn't stay there. My husband worked there, I guess, about six years-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --at the most, you know, and he was called one of the younger men. And at that time, all in that category was-- the fellas was coming back from the war and they had to let them go. 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.000 Gottlieb: Yeah. Yeah. 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:57.000 Gottlieb: And then he went to work at Roth Rug? Victoria S.: That's right. Gottlieb: What kind of job did he do there? 00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:59.000 Victoria S.: Night watchman. 00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:23.000 Victoria S.: And then he went in and was-- Mr. Roth took him down and made a police, city police out of him for that area because it was too dangerous walking around with a gas gun. So he was a city police taking care of the area of Roth Rug Company. 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:29.000 Gottlieb: Do you remember where you stayed in Braddock when you first came up in 1942? 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:34.000 Victoria S.: I was living on Oak Hill at that time. Gottlieb: With your aunt? Victoria S.: 309 Dixon Avenue. Mhm. 00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:40.000 Gottlieb: Can you tell me the different places that you had lived with your family? From Oak Hill? 00:29:40.000 --> 00:30:12.000 Victoria S.: I moved from Dixon Avenue to Oak Hill at 109 Elder Street. From Elder Street to Braddock Avenue, 1212 Braddock. From there across the street to 1211 because they tore that place down. From there to 870 Braddock Avenue. And then here. 11B Maple View Terrace and right around the vicinity of Braddock. 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.000 Gottlieb: Did you ever own any of the places that you stayed in? 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:16.000 Victoria S.: No. 00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.000 Gottlieb: Did you want to? And it wasn't possible? 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:23.000 Victoria S.: No, it wasn't possible. And if I would own a place, I wouldn't want to own either one of them. 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Gottlieb: Why is that? 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:33.000 Victoria S.: Because I would like to have had a place out-- a home with the yard. And you see, all these places were apartments. 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:40.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. Did the places that you lived at-- Were they all in Black neighborhoods? Strictly speaking, were they segregated? 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:46.000 Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] No. No. Well, here in Pennsylvania? Gottlieb: Yes. Victoria S.: No, it wasn't all Black. 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:47.000 Gottlieb: They were always mixed? 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:52.000 Victoria S.: Always mixed. 00:30:52.000 --> 00:31:01.000 Gottlieb: Would you say that the, uh, the friends that you've made in Pennsylvania, were they people that you met while you were at work, on your jobs? 00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.000 Victoria S.: Yes. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.000 Gottlieb: Those where your good friends have come from. 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:05.000 Victoria S.: That's right. 00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:14.000 Victoria S.: On the job and in church and the Eastern Stars and in social work. 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:25.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. Did you ever use to socialize with the other women that you worked with on the job? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: For a regular time? Victoria S.: Yes. Gottlieb: What kind of things would you do? 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:32.000 Victoria S.: Well, we'd have parties, Christmas parties, birthday parties. Little get togethers-- 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:33.000 Gottlieb: Would this be-- 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:35.000 Victoria S.: --on holidays. 00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:38.000 Gottlieb: Would this be during a break on the job, or is this all kind of-- off the job? 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:44.000 Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] No, we planned special times off the job. 00:31:44.000 --> 00:32:05.000 Gottlieb: Um. I wonder if you, after you moved up to Pennsylvania, whether you noticed any difference, particularly between Black people who had come up from the South and those who had been born in Pennsylvania and raised here? 00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.000 Victoria S.: Yes. 00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.000 Gottlieb: Could you describe to me what kind of difference? 00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:18.000 Victoria S.: Yes, there were-- uh, different in speech and the actions, and particularly in the independence. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.000 Gottlieb: What do you mean by that? 00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:58.000 Victoria S.: Well, children that were born here, they were independent and they didn't seem to be-- to have that defeat feeling like the ones come from the South. They-- they look at a child from the South and it was like something in the magazine they never seen or never heard speak before. And it was really something we'll get, to see the difference in how the children was. I didn't have that problem with mine, but there were so many other kids who spoke broken French. 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:08.000 Victoria S.: And just really wasn't taught to speak. And they had that Southern drawl and it sounded funny to the other children. They laughed at them. Made fun of them, you know? 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Gottlieb: Yeah. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:18.000 Gottlieb: Would you say, generally speaking, that those who-- Black people who had come up from the South were looked down upon by those who-- just generally speaking-- 00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:54.000 Victoria S.: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I've seen it on the job, in the schools, and some could take it and some couldn't. And-- and they particularly just saying you're from the South, it made a big difference-- Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: --but it didn't affect me and didn't affect my children because I taught them how to quote [??] with it. That's one of the problems. The children had to fare on they own. Sometimes the mothers and fathers don't even know what's happening 'cause they didn't have any interest in them going to school or seeing about them. 00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:00.000 Victoria S.: But I did. 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:03.000 Gottlieb: You joined a church in Braddock. 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:14.000 Victoria S.: In Rankin. Gottlieb: In Rankin? Victoria S.: I attended church in Braddock, the Methodist church here. But when I found the church of my choice, I joined Triedstone Baptist Church in Rankin. 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.000 Gottlieb: Had you been raised as a Methodist? 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.000 Victoria S.: Yes. Yes. 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:30.000 Victoria S.: But I preferred Triedstone here because it was more like my church at home. This was so different here. And I particularly just loved that little church and I joined it. 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:37.000 Gottlieb: What was the difference between the the churches here and the church that you had been brought up in in Port Arthur? 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.000 Victoria S.: Well. 00:34:39.000 --> 00:35:13.000 Victoria S.: I really-- I hate to criticize the church and in saying what I felt about it, I feel like I would criticize them, but I just didn't feel at home there. I wasn't satisfied there and I didn't think I was getting-- getting the spiritual teaching that I expected and going to the Triedstone it was more like at home. Maybe that was really the main reason. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: The people there were more like home people and that had a lot to do with it. 00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:28.000 Gottlieb: This is something that interests me very much because it's part of the process of settling down in a place to join a congregation. So if you could tell me what you mean by the people at Triedstone seeming more like the people at home, it would be a big help to me. 00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:46.000 Victoria S.: Because I think it was more Southern people there than in the Methodist church. A lot of the people in the Methodist church were people raised here and they had their own type of feeling, their own way of serving God. And it was just different from at home. Gottlieb: Mhm. 00:35:46.000 --> 00:36:00.000 Victoria S.: Because in the South you feel the spirit. You know, God is there and you don't feel like saying Amen or singing out. And it's different in the Methodist church. 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:03.000 Gottlieb: [simultaneous talk] And they did-- and they did at Triedstone. Victoria S.: Triedstone. Oh, yes. Yes. 00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:06.000 Gottlieb: Who was the the pastor at the time? 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:29.000 Victoria S.: Reverend J.C. Martin at the time I joined, because-- and he still is, because I didn't join right away. When I first come here. I worked and I had the type of jobs that I had to be there on Sunday. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: I didn't have the money, so I sent my children and my husband and I worked Sunday, Monday and all whenever we had to. 00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:32.000 Gottlieb: Do you know whether Reverend Martin was from the South? 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:38.000 Victoria S.: Yes, he is. But I can't tell you exactly where. I don't know where. But he is from the South. 00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:51.000 Gottlieb: Did you ever-- did you ever know whether the members of Triedstone were from any particular part of the South? Did they seem to come from any particular state? 00:36:51.000 --> 00:37:04.000 Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] Yes. Yes, they had quite a few from the South. Uh, I think some from Alabama, Georgia and all those places. I hear them talk about it, but you know, I don't know personally. 00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:05.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:08.000 Victoria S.: We have quite a few people in the church from the South. 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:23.000 Gottlieb: The reason I ask is because I have a hunch that some congregations in-- in the Pittsburgh area might have been formed basic-- mainly from people, even from one particular state. It's just an idea. I'm not sure it's true or not. 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:38.000 Victoria S.: No, no. This is a mixed congregation. There are even children baptized in that church. And young ladies has come up and married in that church. Were born right in Rankin and Braddock. No, it's not that type of thing. 00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:46.000 Gottlieb: How did you come to be going to Triedstone in the first place? Were you just going around to different churches, trying them on? 00:37:46.000 --> 00:38:26.000 Victoria S.: [simultaneous talking] No, I am a member of the Eastern Star, chapter 96, and we have our yearly program at each church. I was sermon, and I went there and I enjoyed that sermon. And I went back and I went back again. And on the fifth time I joined and I enjoyed the services and-- and the people, they were just lovely. They-- they were so united and made you feel so welcome and at home. And I felt that it was a place I wanted to be. You know, but. 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:33.000 Gottlieb: Is-- is the Eastern Star a church organization or is it independent from the church? 00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Victoria S.: It's independent from the church. It's large. It's a group of women-- Branch of women from the Masons. Masonic. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.000 Gottlieb: What kind of activities do they do? Charitable, maybe? 00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:48.000 Victoria S.: Charitable. Charitable. 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:58.000 Gottlieb: Had you b- 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:00.000 Gottlieb: Did you belong to the Eastern Star in Texas? 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:02.000 Victoria S.: No, my mother did. 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:04.000 Victoria S.: And my father's Masonic. 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.000 Gottlieb: Uh-huh. Did your husband belong to any fraternal? 00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000 Victoria S.: No. 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:17.000 Victoria S.: He was an Odd Fellow at one time in Texas, but he didn't keep it up. 00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:20.000 Gottlieb: Were you active in church groups? Church organizations? 00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:21.000 Victoria S.: Yes. 00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:23.000 Gottlieb: Can you tell me which groups you participated? 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:58.000 Victoria S.: I've been a nurse in Triedstone, and I had to let that go since my husband was sick and I am crippled. And since he's not here to take me around like he usually do, I just had to let some of the things go. And anything that the nurses and in my large, that's just like a social group. We do things and parties and have different types of things to raise money to help those who are in the need. And working here with the senior citizens, I do quite a bit. Gottlieb: Mhm. Victoria S.: Yeah. 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:05.000 Gottlieb: Is Eastern Star today made up mostly of women about your age, or have younger women been joining all along. 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:19.000 Victoria S.: Younger women, younger women. We have different groups in different vicinities and they-- it have run by chapters. So there is just-- I couldn't say it's more young or old. It's a mixture of every-- Gottlieb: Mhm. 00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:25.000 Victoria S.: --Stage in life. 00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:28.000 Gottlieb: Mhm. Were you ever an officer of the-- of the Eastern Star? 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:33.000 Victoria S.: Yes, I was the treasurer for eight years. 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:36.000 Gottlieb: What--what year did you join? Do you remember? 00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:48.000 Victoria S.: Oh, my. I guess around-- I've been in the Eastern Stars for the past 14 years, I'm sure. 00:40:48.000 --> 00:41:03.000 Gottlieb: Well, gotten to the end of the questions that I had to ask you. But if you think that I've left out anything that it'd be important for me to know in the work that I'm doing, I'd appreciate you telling me, but otherwise I have no other questions. 00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:23.000 Victoria S.: Well, it's one thing I can say I'm very proud of my move because it benefited me in many ways. My girls are now raised, educated, holding good jobs. One is working for the state, the other one is an executive secretary in the Westinghouse. 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:58.000 Victoria S.: And the other one passed a year ago. But she was a nurse in Tacoma, Washington. Gottlieb: Oh. Victoria S.: So they are well educated and able and raising nice family. And I'm a mother of 13 grandchildren-- Gottlieb: [laughs] My goodness. Victoria S.: --grandmother, and the mothers really are beating their children in the right way. The father has a dead girl's children, but they are doing fine. 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:04.000 Gottlieb: Wow. One question I just remember I didn't ask you. I never asked you what your maiden name was. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:08.000 Victoria S.: Hurst. Gottlieb: Hurst? Victoria S.: Victoria Hurst. Hurst. 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:09.000 Gottlieb: Well, thank you very much. 00:42:09.000 --> 00:43:09.000 Victoria S.: That's all right. It's a pleasure.
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