Lavelle, Robert R., March 26, 1973, tape 1, side 2

Lavelle: Always to, well, you know, years, like I was chairman of the County Board of Assistance and for two years, you know. Oh yeah. And I was on the board for seven, you know, I finally got rotated off. Howard: What years were those? Lavelle: Well, December the 31st, 1971, was my last year as chairman. And then the so seven years from that prior to that '64, I guess it came on. And but there I would be as a realtor having these projects to manage these 236 and 221D3 supplement projects for low income people and having relief recipients and everyone and couldn't get my own agency to move, to do things for the relief recipients because of your bureaucratic hodgepodge structured layered on top of mistakes. You know, not being able to get anything done about these things. And when we got complaints or I read in the paper, I didn't get a complaint. I read in the paper about the people in McKeesport or Braddock public housing who were on relief. A Black family lived in Black families, lived in one structure and White families in the other. And the White families had windows and had elevator service and had security and the Blacks didn't have elevator service had to walk up because, you know, and the the housing authority would say, well, the Blacks tear up their own things. [laughs] And so then they would come to us. And the way I would see this, I'd read that, and then I would see the budget come before me, before us to approve an increase in money relief, recipient money that's going to go to the housing authority for the Whites and for the Blacks, and seeing the Blacks living in situations that are intolerable and the Whites not.

Lavelle: And I said that that we're not going to approve this. And they said, you, the staff, well, we have to approve it. I said, What do you mean we have to approve it? Well, one government agency can't say to another that you don't do this. This is--I'm not sitting here to approve anything that I can see is on the face of it, [slaps hand] ridiculous, you know, and this is so we it was just this type of attitude, you know, that would start trying to start doing things. But when the public housing authority that they don't house people yet--I mean people still call me for housing that I say well when the situation gets described a like a grandmother at 23, you hear me? She had a baby at 12. And her her daughter had a baby when she was 11. Babies having babies. And how can anyone solve that problem? By putting them in a brick and mortar setup? You know, you can't do it. I mean, they have had no opportunity. At 11 and 12, I wasn't ready to do nothing except survive, claw and fight whatever, you know, and this is.

Lavelle: But yet no one's tackling that problem with all these structured agencies. Nobody. And yet you as well. I'm the one, right? They call me and this woman, I said, But can't you understand? I said, I can't just put you in this place that I have. Because she had all these she had she had her grandchildren, you know, and she and she herself needs working with and she's, at this point, you know, a mental case somewhat, because how can she be otherwise living like an animal? You know, just living according to the emotional feelings. And no one everyone trying to shove her off on someone else. And so I said, why? I said, I have to try to help you understand what what you really need. You need someone to let you know that you're the same as they--that you've had different experiences than they, but yet they're going to help you to work with these experiences so that you can understand what you have to do so that you can properly relate to your relatives, you know, your and your and the people around you. And she starts crying and she says, They told me you would help me. I said, Who told you? These agencies told her. I said I said, I am trying to help you. Don't you understand? 40 minutes of it. But you can see why I have to ramble like this. Howard: What were your options--what were your options when people call looking for housing. How did you. What did you do?

Lavelle: All I could ever do would be to hear their situation. First off, you have to spend the time listening to them because the first thing that happens to a person when they come into a place is, Oh, that's not mine, you go to there and then, Oh, that's not me, you go there and then the person quits and goes home or goes out in society and sticks up someone or goes out in society and does something else. Now, I know this is so because I've gone with the people that Howard: You really can't talk about the renewal of this area or the relocation of people without talking about the people. Oh, thank you. Thank you. No, but I'm serious. I mean, this is because people think that I'm just that I can't talk, talk straight or talk factually or be objective. That's what you know. How can I be objective when no one's listening? All they want me to do is to put down Roman numeral one, small "a", small "a" and, you know, and then there's a beautiful, let's get this report together and let's you know. Howard: When I'm looking at this thing, one of the things that I was curious about. Um, as a real estate broker, you have, I suppose, some overall knowledge of what the housing market is like and. Is it right that when you started as a real estate broker there that maybe as many as 60% of the houses were deteriorated already? Lavelle: Oh, sure.

Lavelle: But I've always felt and still do that the answer to the problem, the real answer to the problem is rehabilitation. Howard: Of the housing? Lavelle: That's right. Of existing housing. There's no relocation problem. And you hire the people that are in the area to do the work. And you solve the problem of unemployment and you give hope and aspiration to the kids in the area to see, well, gee, here's our area being fixed up and they can start seeing people work and they can learn that there is such a thing as work and they can see the actual going on in the area. You know, 85% of learning is sight, isn't it? When I went to school, when I when I went to school, 85% of what kids see, you know, and 10% hearing. And the other three senses, you know, would be the other and 5%. Well, kids are hearing all this stuff, but they see no relation to this stuff in their everyday life. They don't see it. They don't see it in their families. Their fathers are in prison. Their mothers are hanging out in the bar trying to drown the hopelessness of the situation. And the kids are drifting. Howard: Now, was were these suggestions the kind of thing that was presented to stop the bulldozing rather than bulldozing, rehabilitation was. Lavelle: Yeah, well, it wasn't articulated just like that.

Lavelle: What happened was David Lawrence was--had been to Washington and under Kennedy, you know, he'd been our governor and he was now the Relocation Authority Head. And David Lawrence, who always sort of--I never knew him personally, but I was always opposed to him because I never felt he understood. But he never really had an opportunity to understand. We were all a product of our experiences and everything and this. And when we when we finally at a meeting, CCHDR, we were struggling. We were going around. And when I say we now I'm talking about this nucleus of people, unpaid volunteer people who just said that we're not going to let them come any farther, and this bulldozing without our having a say. And this doesn't mean some don't some areas don't need to be bulldozed and some areas rehabilitated. But we're going to call the shots and the city planners are going to draw the lines because they work for us and we're the people. And the Model Cities program was supposed to have that type of thing, but it didn't work either because I chaired the Model cities and found that they still plan to take my building. The only new thing in the Hill in the last 20 years and my own land use planning committee agreed to do it. And yet they planned it and yet they didn't plan it. Someone else did it for them. See, this is the problem.

Lavelle: And so we as a group of people being manipulated all the time, being fragmented, being offered jobs, being patted on the head, being put in the paper, you know, and then when we become important, you know, you're different from them. And therefore, you know, you are the leader. And those are rabble rousers and agitators. And so this type of thing goes on and on and on. And so it's this type of thing we're fighting all the time to try to keep ourselves together and meeting every month. 1963, we formed well, we just sort of had a hit and miss proposition because of the antagonism and fighting within and everything and people personally vilifying other people, you know, which is the hardest thing of all to take. And this is the type of thing, though, the fragmentation takes, the form, this form, you know, where you have to be able to stand this heat if you're going to be in there in the kitchen, as Truman says. Howard: Yes. Lavelle: Well, we got to the place where the URA was under Pease--had this idea of great White fatherism. You know, we know what's best and control by power structure and so forth. And they would come to our meetings and Pease himself would come, you know, he would get so mad and so upset and we would be so opposite to each other. But I think Bob Pease is a good friend of mine now, you know, and I see a lot of growth in him.

Lavelle: I hope he's seen it in me. Howard: You see this essentially, Bob, the conflict being the one the point that you stressed over and over here is that the right of self-determination, the participation and that sort of thing, and considering the whole person rather than a more formal program of, shall we say, reconstruction for some other use. Lavelle: Yes. Yes. Howard: And it's this kind of struggle. Is that right? I'm getting? Lavelle: Yeah, right. That's right. Because if the whole program could be accomplished. That the planners plan and that all the good, well-meaning people and agencies structured, if at all, could be accomplished. It wouldn't have solved. In fact, the situation would be worse than it was because nothing would have happened with these people again. You know the people's situation. See, something would have been done to them. Something would have been done for them and nothing would have been done with them. Howard: So that the physical renewal could be a communal dis-renewal. Lavelle: Yes. Howard: I mean, that's the kind of problem. Lavelle: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Howard: And this is that you-- Lavelle: And this is change we're talking about. And change is, is what we're talking about. But yet no one wants to change. Yes. Howard: Now-- Lavelle: But Homewood, if I could just bring up like when when the physical renewal came about, just to give an example of what what you just said and I just said, the physical renewal came about when the 1500 families in the Lower Hill were moved and 1200 of whom were Black.

Lavelle: Then the city looked the other way while all of its codes were violated. You know, it didn't care. Homewood. Homewood, Brushton, which was a nice, beautiful community, good solid homes, nice laid out streets level area, wonderful shopping. You know, it was a good community. They permitted these big homes, nice one family homes, eight rooms, to be made into three family without any facilities for the kids that would come in or for additional garbage removal because of the five times as much and the concomitant rat and rodent infestation problem because of this type of living. Howard: Why would they do that-- Lavelle: And the frustration-- Howard: Why--why was that area? Lavelle: Well, get that National Geographic and you might understand. If I recall, there was--18 pages of the National Geographic devoted to Pittsburgh. And it showed General Mellon sitting in his office where he pushed a button, I think, and the whole panel, the whole wall moved. And there was the city of Pittsburgh showing the beautiful golden triangle, the renewal, the Renaissance, connecting with Oakland. And they didn't show me anywhere. Howard: The hill was all-- Lavelle: In between there, that's right. Howard: All had been all-- Lavelle: Oh, it was all beautiful. Yeah, all beautiful as I recall it. I'm just sorry. But see, I took that to the meeting with me, and that solidified it, you know, really, it made us.

Lavelle: We grew to 2200 people. Yeah. And also, we--we really started fighting openly, and the press started coming and listening to us. And Heinz, when he was going to put in that put that 16 million in for the symphony where the Melody tent site is. Yes. And he heard about us because we wrote him and says, how can you do this? When you're going to require green area four blocks east of this, which is Arthur Street and Roberts and all those streets, you know, they're a green area. So before you put that money in, I said, Where are we going? I said, We have plans. They say, Well, he said, come on over. We went over and I narrated our plans, sitting in the executive offices of Heinz, looking up the Hill. I said, Look up there, look at the view, the vistas. I said, Look what you have. You're sitting down here and you have a good view. Look at the view we have when you look over you. I said, We have these things that no one can buy aesthetically. Look at Mount Washington now--the Hill already has it, really. Go up on Cliff Street, back in the club. Have you ever look over that hill? You know, boy, I said, there it is. And here's what we are proposing to do. And we are the people. And I identified this. Howard: You know, there are very good reasons why we want to stay here.

Howard: And we have also plans. Lavelle: That's why Heinz Hall went downtown instead of there, too, though. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We stopped it. But it was this that made David Lawrence in 1967 told the Urban Redevelopment Authority that we recognize CCHDR as the representative group in the Hill, the representative group, and had Mrs. Pace and I down there to make this statement to us. We made our statement. They made their statement. That night, David Lawrence had that massive cerebral stroke. Howard: That very night? Lavelle: Speaking at Syria mosque to a political rally that very night. It was a [??]Howard: Can you think of any more about that particular meeting, Bob? How did that meeting come forward? Lavelle: Oh, the the thing the newspapers carried it very well. It was--it was a good feeling. You know, it was a feeling of a new opening, a new awareness. And it really was. And Pease became more aware and said, well, why shouldn't we work with the people? You know? But see, that meant, though, the timetables had to be slowed. Yes. Because you can't work with people except in the area that they're able and willing to work. You got to take the time and the struggle. And sometimes it's painful. Sometimes you lose some money, federal monies that can't come in because you can't meet that timetable. But then someone has to go to Washington and say, look, we're doing the thing that really has to be done.

Lavelle: The big thing, you should double ours and put it aside and let it earn interest for us and then give it to us. Because look what we're doing. No one was going there and seeing this, though, but this is what needed to be done. Howard: Now, you mentioned, Bob, that there were plans that we had our plans. Now, were these actually plans for the renovation or physical redevelopment of the area? Lavelle: You mean the citizens? Howard: Yes. Lavelle: Yeah. We had an architect, Troy West. Howard: Troy West. Lavelle: Yeah. Troy West. Right. And you'll find that he's pretty much involved in this. And in the forum, the first two issues of March, I think it was carried somewhat the articles on that and there's articles in the morning paper today even that have to do with the Hill. Howard: Yes. Lavelle: That you will find are relevant to it. Now, our plans, though, were not like Troy and he had plans that almost were the same as theirs. Yes. Which I opposed. And it hurt Troy because, you know, I knew his commitment, but he wasn't able to see that all we were doing was proposing imposing our--I said great Black fatherism is no better than great White fatherism. Howard: So it's really not very important, if I follow you, Bob, of getting what might be the most feasible plan as against having the people have the experience like you had had experience, right? Lavelle: That's right. That's right.

Howard: Selecting and even making their own.

Lavelle: That's right. That's right. Making mistakes and how and having the opportunity to learn from them. Yes. And seeing all the plans be scrapped at that they put down there in town and had them come up in the community and had the people start saying, this is what we want and agonizing over why it can or can't be done and having the people see that it can't be done, maybe. Okay, we'll do maybe this. Sure.

Howard: Howard: But it's that sense of participation-- Lavelle: That's right. That's right. Howard --that sense of personhood that's in the process.

Lavelle: That's right. That's right. And this is the only thing that's going to give hope to the people which will be reflected in their attitude towards children and the children's understanding of hope. You know, hope is all there is. You know, you don't solve a problem by writing a check for your kids, but you solve a problem by giving them hope that they can be their own person. You know, this is what a parent does. And it means that that that child has has many, many mistakes that he makes. And he falls and he gets hurt. But the parents are always there to pick him up. And the parents aren't going to let him fall and destroy himself, you know, but the parent has to let the kid do this. Well, this is what I'm talking about in terms of community. And I know this this is a is a concept that's that's so foreign and so abstract that people can't buy it because they just still have to come back to we've got to get something done.

Lavelle: No, we have to be objective. We've got to be practical in all these things. But this is practicality.

Walters: If your group, which represented 2200 people and you came up with your plan and you said it's still in your mind represented a Black great fatherism, um, how can a group of people arrive at a plan?

Lavelle: Sure.

Walters: What represents the group's opinion?

Lavelle: Yeah. Uh, only time will tell it. As long as people are participating. People aren't rioting. As long as people are participating, people are feeling hope to each day get up and do something constructive. Howard: So it's the process not so much the product.

Howard: Is that right? Lavelle: Well, right. You're never going to measure what the product is going to be. It might be entirely foreign to--if you rear your child to be what you really want him to be, he might turn out to be exactly opposite what you hope he would be. But he's made his decision. And that's what we're talking about. [simultaneous speaking] Whose--freedom of decision. The people in terms of of a total type of thing that isn't going to be articulated or spelled out in terms of this grand plan I'm talking about. But but it's going to evolve. You know, the community start being bettered. If you go on the Hill, I can show you evidences of this now, of people who worked on these things, who didn't have a plan and still don't. But you can drive up and down the streets and see where something happened because people worked at it. You look at my building, that's no real plan. I had an architect and all, but all I had was a dream of trying to change the Hill, you know, trying to reverse things.

Walters: Now but do you feel that, you know, by you doing something, it's it's significantly, significantly contributed to other people than doing something because, you know.

Lavelle: Yeah, sure. I don't know. When you say significantly, see well there again we get in the trap of trying to have to measure how much is significant and what you know if you only affect one person Like this morning before I came here, I got a letter from from the White House, a letter from the governor, a personal letter from the governor, the White House, because I'm involved, you know, I'm trying to get things changed. I'm trying to get Nixon to try to do something in terms of what he says he wants to see happen. I'm trying to get him to do it. You know, right. But the thing that was real significant was I wish I'd have done it. I got four letters from four kids at Vann Elementary School where I spoke week before last two, four classes. It was about, I guess, 80 or 90 kids, something like that. But these four letters were written by these kids in terms of what my being there meant. And honestly, I couldn't--I just couldn't get over it. The these kids said, you spoke to us in a way that we understood. You didn't use big words. I wasn't aware of what I was not using it or not using. One of them said, what you did in terms of that man that broke in your place was good. You show that you understand what people need to do. This was a sixth grader writing.

Howard: What was he talking about?

Lavelle: Well, I was telling about they were saying, you know, has anyone ever broken in your place says, yeah, I had eight break-ins, four gunpoint hold ups, And oh, you get the police and all and, you know, you shoot them. I bet you I said, no, I don't keep a gun. I don't believe in them. And I said I might really shoot someone over property and I think a human life is worth more than property. And they said, well, you know, what would you do? I said, Well, one fella that broke in, I said, I told his wife when she called and told me that--and apologized for it the next day because I left my calculator out and hadn't put it away, you know, and he was tempted, as I told her. Yeah. I said he needed, you know, he needed a fix. But I said he really needs to know that I'm here to help him and if he brings that back, I'll help him. And she tried to get him to bring it back, but he already hocked it. But the guy came back to see me about six months later and I got him into a drug program, a [??]. And sure, I see him every day. And one of the guys that held me up at gunpoint, I got in there and didn't even. He knows. I know. But I never said anything to him about it, you know? But what I'm saying is that that the measure of punitive action towards people doesn't solve anything. I mean, this, this relationship thing of trying to expose yourself to the other person and give him an understanding of your knowledge of your relationship to him.

Lavelle: Is what--it makes the person able to have hope and able to do something. These kids were saying that to me. You know, they were saying that they understand why my business is on that corner and that's what it's there for. But if they hadn't written that letter and I talked that same week, I talked to the Watts School--the elementary school. I talked to the Schenley--two classes at Schenley. And I talked to community college one night and I was here at Pitt MBA program that Saturday when they had the retreat for the student consultant project. And I was here at Pitt last week too, and I was at Pitt two weeks before that in undergrad and grad economics courses. But I mean, what I'm saying is, again, that you you don't measure, you can't measure. But--but you have to be doing that thing which, you know--you see needs to be done. And just like I go out, I walk out of my office and there's kids sitting out there on my step and they're throwing their popsicle wrappers on the on the pavement. And they speak to me. Hi Mr. Robert, hi. And I'll pick up the popsicle wrappers and they'll look at me and I'll take them across and put them in the trash thing. See, I said, You know, we have to be proud of where we live, and I'll see them walk past my place, you know, and they'll start to throw it and they'll look up. They'll hold it and they'll drop it next door, you know. But--I don't know if I'm making sense.

Howard: Uh, you certainly are in terms of the meaning of community development.

Lavelle: Yeah okay, because that is community development. Okay. What you're talking about. But I can be specific if you want me to answer specific questions.

Howard: Let me touch on several of them, Bob. Were there people--was there money to be made in the transfer of property? Those, for example, who left the Hill and owned the property and then it became the property for others, especially for Blacks. Were there profits to be made?

Lavelle: Oh, yes. All the way down the line. There's-- Howard: How does that work out? Lavelle: Well property, anytime you're selling to a less advantaged person, the demand is there because he hasn't had the opportunity to own and therefore because demand exceeds supply, you know, the price is always higher. And that's been our housing market as long as I can remember. You know, the demand for it is always greater than supply. And the basic economic rule applies.

Howard: Does that mean, Bob, that when they took out these 1500 families, cleared this area, that they, in fact, that had the impact of raising the price of the existing--

Lavelle: Oh, yes. Of the houses in Homewood sold for much more than it should had. And right now, these same people who paid 18, 16, $18,000 for some of those homes couldn't get eight, 7 or 8000 for them now in open market. But the URA is now operating out there. So some of the people are getting back, you know, the their investment in the properties. But of course, a house doesn't have to appreciate and value any more than a car does, you know, but it does because of the law of supply and demand. But again, the area is what determines location is the thing that determines the value of a of a what's on it.

Howard: Now where there are other real estate brokers taking advantage of this movement out to Homewood.

Lavelle: Oh yeah. In fact, the White real estate brokers at the time, you know, the real estate board was White. Yes. And there was no fair housing law in the city. And Pittsburgh became the second. I was a co-chairman of the NAACP Housing Committee that brought about the fair housing law in the city of Pittsburgh in 1958. We were the second city in the country to have one, and that's a big credit to Pittsburgh. New York was the first. And that that at a time more of an open housing was anathema to everybody, you know. And when I was personally, I was part of a riot scene three different places, you know, trying to break into Stanton Heights that people would call me Black realtor and mad at their neighbor and come up and want to sell my house first. Ought to call me to come buy it. I said, I can't come by it, but I'll sell it for you. Okay, Come sell it for me. And I would go up there, real--here's it going to be a decent house I'm gonna have for sale. And I ran up there and I got and I see all these people out in the street and I said, Yeah, I wonder what happened around here. So I drive on up and I'm about to stop my car and get out. When I realize that people are waiting for me, you know, the person next door called the neighbor and said, I'm going to fix you. I got a Black guy coming to buy my house.

Lavelle: And so they were out there going to fix me when I drove up, see? So of course I was able to turn around and get out. But once I had to drive through a mob scene and I was sort of the only Black involved in this, you know, I would I made the VA and the FHA give me their foreclosure list of houses that they were foreclosing, that they formally gave only the White and made them give them to me because I said that they worked for me and that they said they already had their real estate people said, How do you select them? You know, What's that to you? I said, It means everything to me. And they had the same license I have, you know, How do you select your people? I demand to be one of them. You have no right to select to their exclusion to me. But this is the way it's always been, you know. But someone has to go in there and and act like this. So as a result, I finally got the list, only after I threatened them because I could prove by precedent that a guy in Binghamton lost his job. VA head in Binghamton, New York, lost his job because he wouldn't give a VA foreclosed house to a Black broker. And I knew this. And so armed with this, I went in there and demanded. So as a result, we integrated 18 communities around here. Lavelle Real Estate did.

Howard: Is that '58 again? Yeah.

Lavelle: This is all in and round--between '54 to '61 or so. But '58 was when we got the fair housing law through. And thank you for bringing me back. But we got 1000 names of White people who agreed to let well, not only White agreed to let us put their name and their address in a full page ad in the Post Gazette in order to show that they were in favor of open housing. Boy, that took some doing. We ran Leland Hazzard out of the country, one of our because rather than sign it, you know I mean these are-- Howard: He wouldn't sign it? Lavelle: Yeah maybe I shouldn't say we ran him out of the country but the young lady who was supposed to get his signature would call him and call him. She is a White person, by the way. And she finally went and sat in his office, you know, trying to get his signature and she said he went out of the country. Now, maybe it wasn't Leland Hazzard, [laughs] but it was someone like that, you know, So for the record, you know, [laughter] I don't want to be accused of libel. But anyway, there were a lot of people that that I knew personally that were--

Howard: Would that list be interesting to look at?

Lavelle: Oh, yeah. It came out the morning of the hearings in City Council. We it was in the Post Gazette that morning and we had to cut it down to $1100 worth of advertising, which was about three quarters of a page. But every--but city council was packed that day, just jammed. And the realtors were sort of asleep at the switch. They didn't realize that we were actively out here, you know, getting these names and getting this type of community support for open housing. And we had about 40 different agents, 40 different groups that are speaking for open housing and only one against it, the realtors. And their only statement was at the time was that they had integrated, that they were for integration, they had integrated Homewood Brushton, and the whole city council chair fell out laughing, you know, because Homewood Brushton, it, you know, was the area that that you--you're right, there was a deal. You know that this is where you can put them. And of course, all the problems now that Homewood Brushton has are the result of that deal. And this doesn't mean that there was a pact where people came and sign, you know, but they just had the deal and the city looked the other way. While every code we have is violated out there and there's 32 wards in the city, six of them were permissive wards at the time, and that's where the Blacks were put.

Lavelle: The 1200 Blacks in the Lower Hill were put in those six permissive wards. That is the Fifth Ward--the Third and Fifth, the 12th and 13th, 18th Ward, Beltzhoover, and the 21st, 25th Ward, I think in Northside and Sixth Ward down Lawrenceville. That's where the Blacks went. And they went into whatever they could get. And so open housing was a must. And then in '61, we got the state open housing, you know, fair housing law through and then began all these housing--fair housing committees, you know, that were formed to try to do something about it. There was one in each section. SHARE is still the only one going that I know of. That's really--are you familiar with SHARE? South Hills Association for Racial Equality? Howard: No. Lavelle: They they do a real bang up job. They're a good group of volunteer people. You know, I'm a member. Members, you know, we subscribe, two dollars a year or something like that. Keep a newsletter going, keep something happening, keep people aware of what the situation is. But back at that time, when the fair housing law was coming into being and realtors were fighting it, well, that's of course, when I started my move to become a member of the real estate board. I was accepted.

Howard: Now, when did that start?

Lavelle: 1961. Howard: '61. Lavelle: I became a member of the Greater Pittsburgh Board of Realtors. There was already one fellow in.

Howard: Why did they object to this? Why was it? Why?

Lavelle: Well, because the realtors felt that they knew what was best for everybody. Howard: The same thing. Lavelle: Oh, same thing. Sure. In fact, when I took Semenow's course, Bob Semenow. He's a big realtor, you know, he's a lawyer, and he's wrote the license law for the state. And he was a guy, a teacher at Pitt, an instructor at Pitt at the time. And he would stand up there and lecture. He says, The realtor code of ethics is that you will do unto others as you want to be done by. And then in the next sentence, a realtor will never introduce into any area that any thing that would be in opposition to the well being of the area. And of course people would think of a glue factory or [laughs] something like that and all. But of course Negroes [laughs], you know, we're we're we're not to be moved into that area because and so it just shows again, that people didn't think about a Black person being a human being at all. You know, when they say do unto others, they sincerely meant it. Do unto others as you want to be done by. They just didn't think of a Black as being part of that. Neither did the framers of our Constitution, you know. So that goes back the whole way. So you ask me, why did they?

Howard: But they thought that they were doing the job. Lavelle: That's right. That's right. Oh, they in fact, when when I got in.

Lavelle: And of course, I began the fight to become a multi-list member. Yes. Because Multi-list controls the sale of the houses and the multiple listing groups had to be realtors first, and then they would form groups within the areas where they were to control the housing. And yet to be a member of this multiple listing service, you know. So I try to be and they would always refuse me and they would-- Howard: What would they say? Lavelle: Oh, Bob, you know, you wouldn't be happy--Black people wouldn't be happy moving in that area. I said, I don't I didn't--when were you appointed to determine where I would be happy and where I won't? I says I didn't. I don't I don't understand this relationship. And then look at me so blankly because they couldn't understand, you know, I just couldn't keep a straight face while I was saying it because. And they couldn't understand it. That that I was attacking the very basic premise that they had, that they knew what was best for me, you know, that they were that my place was a certain place and they were going to dispense the crumbs to me as as they chose. And they never understood, you know. Well, they start understanding. But again, to answer your question, how do you tell you know, you just don't tell. I was named realtor of the year, though, by the way, last year. Did you know? [laughs] Which was a fantastic situation. But it was you.

Howard: Why did they select you for that?

Lavelle: Well, they in the when they named the person, I didn't know it. And they're naming the person who's the received the honor and they're talking about this person has done more for the real estate profession because he's been recognized by the governor of the state and he's been honored here and he's done this, that and the other. And he has really pulled himself up by his own bootstraps. And possibly one of the only ones with a master's degree in real estate insurance. And by this time, I'm beginning to think, you know, you know, then when they got to the point where and he recently had a full half hour TV show, a documentary of his business, and it was true, you know, KDKA and he was on and he's on WQED and he's recognized here and he serves in this committee and that committee, and he does all these things and I says, it can't be. And then when they finally says and he organized the only Black savings and loan, you know, it's like, [claps hands] but that's sort of why, you know, everyone else is recognizing me. So, you know, and here he is. He's one of us. Why shouldn't we recognize him? And this doesn't mean that they're again, not good people, but it's just that how do you change is if I were they, I guess I'd be the same as if I'd been born them, I'd be looking upon at Bob Lavelle as what right is he to come in here and to, you know, think that he has a right to say what happens to him? You know, he's never had the right. Why should he have the right? You know, I've always known what's best for him. Of course, you know, that goes all the way to this country, not just.

Howard: In some ways. That really speaks to the very heart of the Renaissance movement, which was very much a couple of people at the top and others who knew best.

Lavelle: That's right. That's right. And they were actually doing some physical things that needed to be done. Smoke control, you know, new building, revitalization of business, you know, enthusiastic approach, you know, these things. But they still were not recognizing at all that they weren't involving the community, you know, that it was being handled by these chosen people--Allegheny Conference. And we the people say.

Howard: Well, now how do you see the riot in terms of all this? You must have been in the middle of that, too.

Lavelle: Yeah, sitting right in the middle. That Saturday night, everyone came by and they said, Hey, you better go home, man. You know, this Hill is really going to burn tonight. I said, I'm sorry, I've got to get my income tax done. But when I left my my office that night, I wasn't sure. But each night I would leave my office, instead of going home, I would go down the Hill. I'd walk down the Hill, down one side, up the other, and I would see people that I thought were my community. I suddenly realized I didn't know them and I feel fear. And then I would realize that they might be looking at me the same way, you know, that I represent the thing that they that oppresses them, you know, the shirt, the tie and the middle class and all. So I would remember something that I learned as a child, that there is no fear in love. And I was able to look at--there were four guys that I really felt were going to sort of do me in and I was able--I was fearful. But I looked at them as if to say, you know, I am you know, I'm the same as you. No words. Just looked at them. And they sort of looked at me and I felt a difference of no longer hostility, but a look of sort of relationship. And one of them said, What's happening, man? I says [laughter]--you know it brother. Howard: It does happen. [laughs] Lavelle: I said, you know it brother. You know, smile. Then there is--that's why I say that you really can't measure things. And many times we project the other person the fears that we have and therefore we give them the club to hit us with because he's fearful too. And so he hits us with it.

Howard: Well, Bob, do you think that in some ways the--this riot in Pittsburgh--

Lavelle: Oh, the riots, yeah. Yes. The riots were, you know, they were wonderful. We--we burn up the businesses in our area. We--we woke up America. You know, we sort of got up off our knees and got up, stopped our pleading and and stopped. This is not to say that I believe in violence, you know, but I don't believe in the violence that's happened to to Blacks, you know, the violence of the spirit that makes us the animals we are at times because, you know, we just are treated that way. And so we respond that way. You know, survival for sure. But the only--and we tried to articulate this to even the good people of Pittsburgh and we couldn't in terms of this renewal renaissance type of thing. And we want to be involved, we want to be with it. And I'm trying to do it in terms of an institution like Dwelling House, you know, a little Black institution that only grew 50,000 up to 130,000 at the time Martin Luther King was killed. And because the Blacks started attacking the values of America, property, America started getting waking up and saying, look what's happening to us. You know, what's going on here? And so they started to try to respond in their way. And only the riots did it.

Howard: And your business prospered as a consequence of it, Bob. Lavelle: Oh, yeah.

Lavelle: At least the--not my my real estate business per se, but dwelling house dwelling house has become an insured institution of 3,650,000 dollars as a result of it. It wouldn't we'd probably still been struggling as a little Black institution with me paying the bills and everything for it if it hadn't been for the riots, the riots are what brought people in. Like the morning paper talks about this somewhat and and the kid [ed. note: Lavelle is referring to the newspaper reporter] makes a mistake. He says, White philanthropy. You know, it wasn't no philanthropy. White people put money in, but they get 5% for it. It's an investment. There's no donation there. There's no contribution. They always think about Black with his handout, no handout, we'll pay you the same thing any other institution will pay you for it. But they suddenly start putting it there. And that--

Howard: Who were some of the early ones to begin with?

Lavelle: Well, the Kaufmann--Edgar Kaufmann Foundation through Edgar Kaufmann, himself. I don't know if you know him. You ought to talk to him. He's a great guy. He's up in New York. But he came here to hand out money, you know, after because he had a feel for Pittsburgh. But I had met him a couple of years before because he knew about CCHDR and and everyone had said he's got to meet me and he wanted to see Pittsburgh become viable. And I was trying to get all the businessmen to invest in the community instead of taking the money out. You know, the problem is Black money in the Black communities. You know, the economics of the ghetto, dope, prostitution, numbers, alcohol, loansharking, you know, the money turns over one and a half times and goes out--velocity of money. You know, it has to be--stay in the community in order to help the community. You know, each person that handles that dollar gets to pay his bill with that dollar, which helps the guy who's who he pays a bill to, who in turn can pay his bill with that dollar and the dollar expands. See? And this way. Well, the money isn't staying in. It goes out to Oakland, it goes to downtown. It goes everywhere. Blacks don't support Blacks neither would, but they stopped supporting Whites at that point. The Whites who had the businesses didn't live in the community. They lived out. For example, Squirrel Hill Money turns over 19 times before it leaves a community.

Lavelle: In the Black community, one and a half. There's a difference. Squirrel Hill income's 23,000 per family.

Lavelle: In the Hill, 4000. These were articles in the paper, documented research market studies. Squirrel Hill, median education, graduate school. Hill District, eighth grade. And these are the problems.

Lavelle: And when you--you say the--what the riots did well, the riots just focused on the fact that these that the people were were just finally in frustration to the point--no, no, no longer any hope at all. You know, no hope. Remember what I talked about hope? Howard: Yes. Lavelle: It's hope that keeps a person trying to do something constructive, you know, And when the people don't have hope, well, then they do the destructive thing. And that's what they did. And when they did that, though, well, then White America suddenly said, well, gee, look at our Pittsburgh where we had this nice climate and Negroes were all happy and satisfied. And look at them, you know what's happening. Those so-called it's those agitators, those militants. It isn't the good people, you know. Well, it's Bob Lavelle, too. Sure. I mean, I wasn't--I wouldn't put a torch to anything, but I certainly understood it. Oh so well. It's just that I was fortunate enough to be able to see another way to try to go. To be able to pound a table [pounds fist] and demand that someone hear me, you know, because of experiences that I tried to relate that background.

Howard: Where are we on that thing? Walters: We're just--[sound of tape cutting out]

Lavelle: We haven't done nothing yet.

Howard: But ten years from now, somebody listening to that will be really quite turned on by--looking back at our list of things here. I think in some ways you touched upon and--

Lavelle: Yeah, I've touched on those.

Howard: Touched on.

Lavelle: But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Howard: Uh, not so much on--on six as much as I would like to, but you did get into a number of things about this institution.

Lavelle: Yeah. Yeah.

Howard: Uh, I think what, what I would like to do is this. I'd like to have--first place, I think we ought to look up this National Geographic magazine.