Birnkrant, Saul, January 5, 1976, tape 1, side 2

Speaker1: Hello? Hello? Hello? Hello? Okay. I want to talk a little bit about the 30s, the Depression and the 30s. How was your life affected by that?

Speaker2: It was a struggle, of course, in the 30s when I worked at this particular time, it was 1931, I worked for the Schwartz Bakery.

Speaker1: Did you hold your job all the way through the Depression?

Speaker2: I held my job all the way through the Depression. I.

Speaker1: What? Were you married at that time? No, no, no. So you were living at home and helping your family out, right? What about your father? How was. Did he keep his job?

Speaker2: He kept his job as a butcher, earning very little.

Speaker1: What changes occurred in the union during the Depression. Do you remember?

Speaker2: During the Depression. I believe that the Bakers had to give a reduction in wages.

Speaker1: Do you know? Do you have any. Do you remember what percentage that was? No. No, I couldn't say. That meant they kept more people on or they.

Speaker2: Kept the same amount of people. Uh huh. But it was I recall at that time, of course, as a youngster, my mind wasn't. So it was that it was contract time and we had to give a reduction. I don't know if it was a dollar or $2 a week for a certain amount.

Speaker1: Okay. You said you belong to a synagogue. Yes. Which one is that?

Speaker2: That's music. Hajdas. That's right here on Negele. And ach. That's Hades. That's an Orthodox, right?

Speaker1: How often do you attend?

Speaker2: Well, I attend. I would say about five times a year.

Or six times a.

Speaker1: Is there any has there been any relationship between the union and any synagogues? No, none that you recall ever? Not that I. Uh. Were you in that synagogue during World War Two? No. Do you remember what it was? When was it? Where was. You know, World War Two. 39.

Speaker2: I was a member there.

Speaker1: At this synagogue.

Speaker2: Here. No, it was up in the Hill district. This one just moved, but it was under the same name.

Speaker1: Oh, this synagogue moved from the hill.

Speaker2: From the hill? That's right.

Speaker1: Did do you remember the rabbi's attitude during World War Two? What? How?

Speaker2: Well, they told him that about the whole situation.

Speaker1: Do you remember if the rabbi encouraged Jewish people to get Americanized?

Speaker2: Voices. I said I didn't attend much of the synagogue.

Speaker1: Even at that time. Oh, even then.

Speaker2: Even then, you know, it's.

Speaker1: Do you remember the differences between Rabbi Sivits and Rabbi Oshinsky?

Speaker2: I remember them, but I don't know. I wouldn't say the difference between them. They were both Orthodox rabbis.

Speaker1: They were. I don't know.

Speaker2: Yes, I see some rabbits. Sibbet's. Yes. They lived on the Hill District. Yes. Do you remember.

Speaker1: What the thing was about? What the problem was about.

Speaker2: In regards to what the did the dissension between them? Yeah. Well, not that I would say one way or another. I can't recall.

Speaker1: Did it have. It didn't have anything to do with ethnic identification. Jewish? No. No. What kind of changes occurred in the union during World War Two? There was a.

Speaker2: Lot of work at that particular time because a lot of our boys went to.

Speaker1: What about during the 50s? Do you remember what kind of changes occurred during the 50s and 50s?

Speaker2: It was a change that wages were increased. Times were getting much better. Business was good. People. The need was much greater than everything. The cost of living was going up.

Speaker1: What about any. Did you have any political problems during the 50s with McCarthy or. No. No.

Speaker2: The union was not affiliated with anything. They did not endorse anything because as a local union, with so many ethnic groups, Polish, Italian, Jewish colored, we tried to stay away from any political just union affair.

Speaker1: So the union was never accused of anything? That's right.

Speaker2: The union was never accused.

Speaker1: Do you have any money saved with or insurance held with any Jewish or fraternal organizations? No. Did you ever borrow any money from any.

Speaker2: The only thing is, I believe during my administration. I had thought when I was an officer, I think $1,500 of Israel bonds. Then we cashed them in. That's about it. That's the only one that we did have that we did participate in is Israel Bonds.

Speaker1: Do you have any cemetery arrangements? No.

Speaker2: We have cemetery been through the synagogue, but there is no arrangement.

Speaker1: If you had. If you needed help, what what Who would you go to If you had? If you had. Right here. Who else would you go to in time of need?

Speaker2: Well, who would you I mean to say as far as this, you can go this far. The union will not help. There is no help. The only thing is, when there's a job, if any refrain, if anybody loses a job, is that if people.

Speaker1: Have a tragedy in their family and they have financial problems or.

Speaker1: Health problems, they would.

Speaker2: Help probably individual. But as far as otherwise, unless they have some other fraternal organizations. But I know through the local union back in the years when there was someone needed help, we have helped them through the union, but on an individual basis, voluntary basis, but always got help.

Speaker1: And you've been able to do that.

Speaker2: The union. That's right. But now I couldn't say.

What would happen.

Speaker1: I'm interested in this this business about the officers not being paid Well.

Speaker2: This local union never had full time paid officers. Every officer worked. Now it consists of secretary treasurer in a business agent. There was the two main officers. Now, the business agent job was to distribute the work. Used to have a share to work in our contract. For instance, if someone had a day here or a day here, he used to say, Listen, John, Jack, whatever it is, you go here at day and here at day and so on. Now, those were the two main offices as far as the chairman. And these.

Speaker1: Officers were not full time.

Speaker2: Not full time officers. They got their expense accounts.

Speaker1: But they still had to hold down their regular.

Speaker2: Time, their regular job. As far as the chairman, at every meeting, it was a chairman appointed or elected from the body. And he presided over the meeting.

Speaker1: For each month.

Speaker2: For each month, not paid. Then we had trustees who before becoming a secretary. So I was a trustee for many years. The trustees used to get $10 a year for adding the books. That's it. That was the extent of our.

Speaker1: So the business agent had to essentially had to do his work, his union work, after he got through with his regular job.

Speaker2: That's right. And on the day off, you know, he used to have a schedule and the secretary treasurer used to collect dues, all the communications, sick benefits and so on, went through his hands, sick legs.

Speaker1: How many members would you say there were in the union when you were.

Speaker2: When I was an officer. About 160.

Speaker1: What about now?

Speaker2: Now I think we're down to about 90. At that time, we had nine bakeries. Now we have three No, four United Baking Company, Rosenblum's, all over Sweden and four bakers.

Speaker1: What happened to the other five?

Speaker2: They all went out of business. Oh, really? Yes.

Speaker1: What? Is your wife also Jewish?

Speaker2: Yes, ma'am.

Speaker1: And what about your children? Do they are they active in Jewish affairs?

Speaker2: Yes, my daughter and my son in law.

Speaker1: You know, what kind of stuff do they do?

Speaker2: Well, of course, now, my son in law is a member of a board of directors at a home for the aged. He is. My daughter is in my breath. She's in many other organizations actively.

Speaker1: Um. Um. When you came to this country.

Speaker2: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker1: Were there aspects of Jewish culture which you felt came into conflict with American culture when you came over here?

Speaker2: I imagine it was to my belief, it's.

Speaker1: Like what.

Speaker2: I tried to get the people involved in many organizations and tried to stick together and so on.

Speaker1: What kind of things did you think were different about American culture than different from Jewish?

I don't think it was much.

Speaker2: As far as my opinion.

Speaker1: You didn't feel any conflict when you went out of the Jewish community? No. What was the role of women in the Union?

Speaker2: At that particular time. You had the beginning. We didn't have women in our community.

Speaker1: What about now?

Speaker2: Now we have male and female helpers, icers and so on, which before we didn't.

Speaker1: When did that start?

Speaker2: That started, I would say, in about 1930. By about 1938 or so.

Speaker1: During the war? Yeah. So what happened? I mean, has the role of women changed since then in the union?

Speaker2: Well, they better themselves as far as the livelihood and benefits, the same as the male and so on.

Speaker1: How is membership in the union affected your position in the in the Jewish community?

Speaker2: In regards to.

Speaker1: What in terms of how people regard you, how they look at you.

Speaker2: They looked at us at that particular time as as far as the public, you would say. Is that right? They would say they want more money, that's all.

Speaker1: No, I mean, the public, the Jewish people, people in the Jewish community, they knew that you were active in the union. How did that affect their attitudes towards you?

Speaker2: Wonderful. Great. They family was a good gesture that improving the working conditions for everyone.

Speaker1: What economic class do you identify with? Do you think you're a part of.

Speaker2: What do you mean by economic class?

Speaker1: Say somebody said, you know, asked you what class you were in. What would you say? What do you.

Speaker2: Mean? High brackets? Yeah, just the middle.

Speaker1: Middle class.

Speaker2: That's right.

Speaker1: How has membership in the union affected your moving from class to class?

Speaker2: Well, they were just giving me credit for being able to move my up, you know, and to better my conditions and so on.

Speaker1: You feel the union had a lot to do with?

Speaker2: Yes. Yes.

Speaker1: Our our members of. Are there any members of the union who are upper class, would you say?

Speaker2: No, I would say none. They're all middle class people. I would not put them up in the high brackets or.

Speaker1: Okay. Do you remember the old Irene Kaufmann settlement?

Speaker2: Yes, ma'am.

Speaker1: Could you tell me something about that?

Speaker2: Well, there was a another place where most of the Jewish people were gathered.

Speaker1: What did they do there?

Speaker2: They used to have shows. Dancing, basketball games, swimming, all the recreations.

Speaker1: Did they have any classes there?

Speaker2: I imagine they would. Of course, I did not participate much in it except going to dances and so on. Those particular years. But it was a well noted place.

Speaker1: What about Anna Heldman? Do you remember her?

Speaker2: I remember her, but I couldn't say much because she was a part of. Part of that? Yeah.

Speaker1: Do you remember their crusades to clean up Pittsburgh? What do you remember hearing about the red light district in the hill in the 20s?

Oh, it was.

Speaker2: They existed there during the early 20s. Of course. I was a kid then. Monday, killing the manna from the whole district.

Speaker1: What do you remember hearing about it later?

Speaker2: Of course, that they cleaned them out, that they were corrupt and so on, and it affected the children.

Speaker1: And so that's what kind of people ran them, do you know, like who were in charge of putting them together and stuff? You don't know. Well, of course, some racketeers. So it was pretty much rackets then. Yes. What about the founding of Montefiore Hospital? What do you remember about that?

Speaker2: The only thing is I recall it. This was the time when I had the accident. At that particular time, the hospital was up on Centre Avenue, a small hospital.

That's what I was taken to.

Speaker1: So it was already there? Yeah. What about when it moved to Oakland? Do you remember that?

Speaker2: No. I mean, it never occurred that I should pay attention to it.

Speaker1: When you were growing up, what types of jobs did most Jews have that you knew?

Speaker2: Court jobs at that time it was. I would say the same as now, working in department stores and so on. Of course, at that time they were willing to learn a trade like a baker, a butcher, and so on.

Speaker1: So you don't think that Jews have made any advancements since then in the types of jobs they have?

Speaker2: Oh, they made advancements. Now they go into colleges and become doctors, professional men, lawyers and so on. Accountants which at that time their finances wouldn't allow them. There was.

Speaker1: What do you think of intermarriage?

Speaker2: Well, I don't approve of it. I personally.

Speaker1: Was.

Speaker2: Because I feel that you should be within your religion.

I'll go this way.

Speaker1: Have your views on Zionism changed?

Speaker2: I think design. Isn't it a wonderful thing? It's something that I approve. This does help out the Jewish people in the way of getting into togetherness.

Speaker1: You haven't changed your opinions on that?

Speaker2: No, I haven't.

Speaker1: Uh. What neighborhoods in Pittsburgh have you lived in?

Speaker2: The only neighborhood I lived was in the Hill District. And then around East End or Square Hill. I mean, those are the three neighborhoods.

Speaker1: When did you move up to, uh, Stanton Heights from Squirrel Hill?

Speaker2: No, I moved from from East End to. To Stanton Heights. It was in 1959.

Speaker1: Oh, you never lived in Squirrel Hill?

Speaker2: I lived in Squirrel Hill a couple of years.

Speaker1: And then you moved to East End.

Speaker2: Then I moved to East End. Then we bought a home here.

Speaker1: Where in East End were you?

Speaker2: I've been around Hayes Street. Hayes and Negley.

Speaker1: Did you when you moved out of the hill, did you join any other organizations for Jewish people? Any new ones? No. No. What about when you moved up here? Did you join any new organizations?

Speaker2: No. The same that I been always.

Speaker1: You didn't change your membership and or drop any membership in any. No. No. Where are your parents? Buried?

Speaker2: In Millville.

Speaker1: Right here. That's a Jewish cemetery.

Speaker2: No. Yeah, that's a Jewish cemetery.

Speaker1: But you don't own a cemetery plot.

Speaker2: No, no, no, no.

Speaker1: You will get buried by the synagogue. Yeah.

Speaker2: Well, unless my wife wants to put me somewhere else.

Speaker1: Do you belong to a family or cousins club?

Speaker2: We have a family club. Cousins. The of my brothers, a couple of.

Them and some of the members, you know, passed away So dissolved.

Speaker1: What what was it like? What did you do there?

Speaker2: Well, it was like a social I get together every month, different homes and reminisce the past and so on. Coffee and cake. Maybe we played a little cards.

Speaker1: It was were the the newer generations involved in that? The. Yes.

Speaker2: Your children. Yes. They were all they used to come up and play.

Speaker1: That's right. What was there some financial thing involved, like dues or any kind of.

Speaker2: Was any dues involved? Oh, yes. Yes. Then we used to go out to nightclubs and so on.

Speaker1: But it was the dues was all for social activity.

Speaker2: For social.

Speaker1: Activity. It wasn't for saving or anything.

Speaker2: No, no, no.

Speaker1: Or investment? No. Social. Okay. Are there any questions that I any things you want to say about the union that I didn't ask about?

Speaker2: The only thing is that the union is improved with benefits that everyone benefits by it. A pension fund which is never I brought in in that pension fund in 1958, the year before our welfare fund was brought in, I think in 1956. And the worker gets paid for going to the hospital. So much pay he gets a pension. It depends upon the service. Many years you have.

Speaker1: Were the in the in the international Union, was there a discriminate any kind of discriminatory attitudes towards the Jewish unions?

Speaker2: No, it wasn't. And I will say at that particular time, they looked up to the Jewish local unions because they were more advanced in many of their undertakings that they did that American unions.

Speaker1: When would you say that the the ethnic composition of the union started to change from Jewish to non-Jewish?

Speaker2: I would say about ten years.

Speaker1: Ago it was Jewish. Up until then it was Jewish, Yes.

Speaker2: 1015. This. But at that time when I joined up, of course, which I gave some books to Mr. Sullivan, the minutes of the meetings were kept in Jewish. She had some of the books, which to me, I couldn't bear to read a little, you know. But not everything was conducted in Jewish. The meetings.

Speaker1: When did that stop?

Speaker2: That stopped, I would say about. About 1932, 33, 35. You see, as the older people retired without anything. The younger generation did not mistaken a lot of American boys and it was changed into Do the.

Speaker1: Did the union have a publication, regular publication.

Speaker2: In the international. They have a bakery journal which is still in existence.

Speaker1: But you didn't have any for the.

Speaker2: From the local. Yeah. No.

Speaker1: No. Did you have any written communication among the 160 members that you had? No. No newsletter or no.

Speaker2: Newsletter of any kind.

Speaker1: So your relationships with them was all through the officers? Yes. Yes.

Speaker2: I attended quite a number of conventions. Local. State.

Speaker1: What how often the union the local met once a month.

Speaker2: Once a month. We used to at those particular years way back we used to meet semi-monthly twice a month. But later on I would say in the 30s we changed it to once a month, every month, the last Saturday of each month. We used to have a meeting and pay the dues and discuss.

Speaker2: Night. No, Saturday, noon.

Speaker1: Saturday noon. Yes, ma'am. On the Sabbath. On the Sabbath.

Speaker2: About years back. It used to be on Fridays. When the Jewish organization was more Jewish people. But during this in 1938, 39, 40s when that changed. We used to have meetings on Saturdays because because most of the workers were off on Saturdays. They did not bake even now. So the meetings are on Saturdays. Oh, Annie, you can get ready and.

Speaker1: Oh, you stay part of the did you stay with the AFL all the way until they affiliated with the CIO in the 50s?

Speaker2: Yes.

Speaker1: So you were never part of the CIO before? No.

Speaker2: Before. No. Before it was the AFL. But whenever the AFL merged with the CIO, that became one organization, so we were always with him.

Speaker1: Oh, I see why it was so old now. I was thinking more of the industrial unions in the 30s. Okay, thanks a lot.

Speaker2: Okay, honey, I hope it's. Isn't it? Okay.