WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.830 --> 00:00:02.999 Hello and welcome to the latest 2 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:04.349 installment of Being Human from the 3 00:00:04.350 --> 00:00:05.909 University of Pittsburgh. 4 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:07.589 This series is devoted to exploring 5 00:00:07.590 --> 00:00:09.119 the humanities, their connections to 6 00:00:09.120 --> 00:00:10.469 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:10.470 --> 00:00:11.759 in the public world. 8 00:00:11.760 --> 00:00:13.439 I'm Dan Kubis, associate director of 9 00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:15.179 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:15.180 --> 00:00:16.739 My guest today is Maria Loh, 11 00:00:16.740 --> 00:00:18.239 professor of Art History at City 12 00:00:18.240 --> 00:00:19.559 University of New York Hunter 13 00:00:19.560 --> 00:00:20.969 College. 14 00:00:20.970 --> 00:00:22.649 Professor Loh's research focuses on 15 00:00:22.650 --> 00:00:24.059 early modern and Renaissance art 16 00:00:24.060 --> 00:00:25.949 history, particularly Titian, 17 00:00:25.950 --> 00:00:28.349 the 16th-century Venetian painter. 18 00:00:28.350 --> 00:00:29.519 Her work brings exciting new 19 00:00:29.520 --> 00:00:31.079 perspectives to Titian's art. 20 00:00:31.080 --> 00:00:32.699 For example, in her first book, when 21 00:00:32.700 --> 00:00:34.499 she looked at a little-known heir to 22 00:00:34.500 --> 00:00:35.819 Titian to examine how his legacy had 23 00:00:35.820 --> 00:00:37.409 changed over time. 24 00:00:37.410 --> 00:00:39.069 Or in her new book, where she argued 25 00:00:39.070 --> 00:00:40.529 that Titian's paintings present us 26 00:00:40.530 --> 00:00:42.509 with not only a sensory experience 27 00:00:42.510 --> 00:00:44.039 but also an argument that challenges 28 00:00:44.040 --> 00:00:45.989 the way we see the material world. 29 00:00:45.990 --> 00:00:47.159 Professor Loh is well known for 30 00:00:47.160 --> 00:00:48.779 placing early modern and Renaissance 31 00:00:48.780 --> 00:00:50.279 art into productive dialogue with 32 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:52.529 contemporary ideas and culture. 33 00:00:52.530 --> 00:00:53.549 She frequently relies on 34 00:00:53.550 --> 00:00:55.169 20th-century cinema to illuminate 35 00:00:55.170 --> 00:00:56.399 Renaissance and early modern 36 00:00:56.400 --> 00:00:57.359 painting. 37 00:00:57.360 --> 00:00:58.859 She's also edited a collection of 38 00:00:58.860 --> 00:01:00.689 essays on early modern horror, 39 00:01:00.690 --> 00:01:02.039 which traces some of the ways that 40 00:01:02.040 --> 00:01:03.089 the fear and anxiety of 41 00:01:03.090 --> 00:01:04.738 representation has existed across 42 00:01:04.739 --> 00:01:06.089 centuries. 43 00:01:06.090 --> 00:01:07.409 One of the effects of this approach 44 00:01:07.410 --> 00:01:08.999 is to energize our thinking about 45 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:10.679 early modern art and culture by not 46 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:11.939 canonizing it. 47 00:01:11.940 --> 00:01:13.589 According to Maria Loh, Titian and 48 00:01:13.590 --> 00:01:15.059 his contemporaries are not old 49 00:01:15.060 --> 00:01:16.919 masters to be praised but artists 50 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:18.329 and thinkers wrestling with many of 51 00:01:18.330 --> 00:01:19.889 the same questions that we still ask 52 00:01:19.890 --> 00:01:20.890 today. 53 00:01:21.330 --> 00:01:22.499 The other effect, then, is to give 54 00:01:22.500 --> 00:01:24.269 us new ways of thinking about our 55 00:01:24.270 --> 00:01:25.919 own experience, which is perhaps 56 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:27.689 even more valuable and exciting, at 57 00:01:27.690 --> 00:01:28.739 least for those of us who aren't 58 00:01:28.740 --> 00:01:30.509 early modernists, since it comes 59 00:01:30.510 --> 00:01:32.609 from an unexpected source. 60 00:01:32.610 --> 00:01:33.899 Professor Loh's newest book is 61 00:01:33.900 --> 00:01:35.939 called Titian's Touch: Art, Magic, 62 00:01:35.940 --> 00:01:37.379 and Philosophy. 63 00:01:37.380 --> 00:01:38.669 According to Professor Loh, one of 64 00:01:38.670 --> 00:01:40.049 the difficulties of writing about 65 00:01:40.050 --> 00:01:41.759 Titian is telling a compelling story 66 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:44.219 without rehashing all the old tales. 67 00:01:44.220 --> 00:01:45.779 So I began by asking her how she 68 00:01:45.780 --> 00:01:47.279 accomplished this in her new book. 69 00:01:48.450 --> 00:01:49.469 Well, Titian is an artist that is 70 00:01:49.470 --> 00:01:51.389 endlessly fascinating, and I knew 71 00:01:51.390 --> 00:01:53.249 that before I even began because 72 00:01:53.250 --> 00:01:55.469 I had looked into his work 73 00:01:55.470 --> 00:01:57.299 previously in my first book 74 00:01:57.300 --> 00:01:58.709 and in my dissertation work. 75 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:01.739 But in terms of writing a monograph 76 00:02:01.740 --> 00:02:03.839 about one single artist, 77 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:05.879 that's nothing I had ever attempted. 78 00:02:05.880 --> 00:02:08.069 And it seemed like a very daunting 79 00:02:08.070 --> 00:02:08.939 task. 80 00:02:08.940 --> 00:02:10.888 It seemed to be 81 00:02:10.889 --> 00:02:12.719 from a tradition of 82 00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:14.669 art history that, certainly, 83 00:02:14.670 --> 00:02:16.529 when I was in graduate school in 84 00:02:16.530 --> 00:02:18.689 the nineties, that monographic 85 00:02:18.690 --> 00:02:20.459 celebratory approach was something 86 00:02:20.460 --> 00:02:21.460 that postmodernism 87 00:02:22.590 --> 00:02:24.209 kind of looked down upon with the 88 00:02:24.210 --> 00:02:25.619 death of the author and everything 89 00:02:25.620 --> 00:02:26.909 else that came with it. 90 00:02:26.910 --> 00:02:28.709 So I thought it would be a real 91 00:02:28.710 --> 00:02:30.569 challenge to think about how 92 00:02:30.570 --> 00:02:32.789 one could write a monograph 93 00:02:32.790 --> 00:02:34.679 that nevertheless addresses some of 94 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:36.569 those concerns that came out of 95 00:02:36.570 --> 00:02:39.059 the theory of the seventies, 96 00:02:39.060 --> 00:02:40.139 eighties, and nineties. 97 00:02:41.190 --> 00:02:43.199 When I began, I thought, 98 00:02:43.200 --> 00:02:44.699 "Well, this should be a nice, simple 99 00:02:44.700 --> 00:02:46.379 task," because it was pitched to me 100 00:02:46.380 --> 00:02:48.784 as a easy 40,000-word 101 00:02:50.370 --> 00:02:52.229 book, a short book on Titian. 102 00:02:52.230 --> 00:02:53.219 I thought, "Well, that shouldn't be 103 00:02:53.220 --> 00:02:55.229 too bad." But then I saw 104 00:02:55.230 --> 00:02:56.159 it, and I thought, "Oh my God, 105 00:02:56.160 --> 00:02:57.269 there's so much literature on 106 00:02:57.270 --> 00:02:58.979 Titian." It was kind of like being 107 00:02:58.980 --> 00:03:00.059 confronted with all of the 108 00:03:00.060 --> 00:03:02.219 Shakespeare literature, and 109 00:03:02.220 --> 00:03:03.929 so much of it is really-- I mean, 110 00:03:03.930 --> 00:03:05.609 all of it is fascinating. 111 00:03:05.610 --> 00:03:07.079 And there were certain patterns that 112 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:08.789 came up again and again about his 113 00:03:08.790 --> 00:03:09.929 biography. 114 00:03:09.930 --> 00:03:12.299 So in a sense, one of my challenges 115 00:03:12.300 --> 00:03:14.189 in taking this project on was 116 00:03:14.190 --> 00:03:16.499 to rethink the monographic 117 00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:19.019 tradition for a 118 00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:20.999 general readership that was neither 119 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:22.919 specialist in the Renaissance nor 120 00:03:22.920 --> 00:03:24.839 in the Venetian 121 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:26.219 kind of history. 122 00:03:26.220 --> 00:03:27.569 Not necessarily in the history of 123 00:03:27.570 --> 00:03:28.469 art at all. 124 00:03:28.470 --> 00:03:31.049 And that was from where I began. 125 00:03:31.050 --> 00:03:32.580 Now, one of the other things that 126 00:03:33.930 --> 00:03:35.819 art historians have often focused 127 00:03:35.820 --> 00:03:37.889 on in relation to Renaissance 128 00:03:37.890 --> 00:03:40.379 painting is this juxtaposition 129 00:03:40.380 --> 00:03:42.074 between Florence and Venice. 130 00:03:42.075 --> 00:03:44.009 How Venice 131 00:03:44.010 --> 00:03:46.499 is an art and a style of color, 132 00:03:46.500 --> 00:03:48.059 whereas Florence is much more 133 00:03:48.060 --> 00:03:49.739 linear. It's about disegno or 134 00:03:49.740 --> 00:03:51.689 drawing, and it's much 135 00:03:51.690 --> 00:03:52.919 more cerebral. 136 00:03:52.920 --> 00:03:53.920 And so I wanted to think 137 00:03:54.810 --> 00:03:57.059 outside of those boxes to 138 00:03:57.060 --> 00:03:58.919 find a way to speak about 139 00:03:58.920 --> 00:04:00.569 Titian's practice in terms of visual 140 00:04:00.570 --> 00:04:01.679 philosophy. 141 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:03.479 So that was, in a sense, my starting 142 00:04:03.480 --> 00:04:04.289 point. 143 00:04:04.290 --> 00:04:05.579 That's a great point. 144 00:04:05.580 --> 00:04:06.989 I can pick up on that because it 145 00:04:06.990 --> 00:04:08.189 seems like one of the things that 146 00:04:08.190 --> 00:04:10.349 you are most interested in doing 147 00:04:10.350 --> 00:04:12.059 in this book, and you talk about in 148 00:04:12.060 --> 00:04:13.529 the introduction to the book, is 149 00:04:13.530 --> 00:04:15.629 presenting Titian as 150 00:04:15.630 --> 00:04:17.449 a visual philosopher or 151 00:04:17.450 --> 00:04:18.450 a philosopher with a paintbrush, is 152 00:04:19.380 --> 00:04:20.729 another way that you refer to him. 153 00:04:20.730 --> 00:04:21.809 Can you talk a little bit about what 154 00:04:21.810 --> 00:04:22.650 that means? It's kind of thinking-- 155 00:04:22.651 --> 00:04:23.651 thinking 156 00:04:25.050 --> 00:04:26.489 with Titian is something that you 157 00:04:26.490 --> 00:04:27.659 kind of present to your reader. 158 00:04:27.660 --> 00:04:28.829 And it seems like that's something 159 00:04:28.830 --> 00:04:30.779 that is new that you're trying 160 00:04:30.780 --> 00:04:32.729 to present here. 161 00:04:32.730 --> 00:04:34.859 I think that artists are 162 00:04:34.860 --> 00:04:36.689 more often than not at the 163 00:04:36.690 --> 00:04:38.339 forefront of experimentation 164 00:04:38.340 --> 00:04:40.049 precisely because they're not bound 165 00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:43.319 by the demands of realism, 166 00:04:43.320 --> 00:04:45.389 scientific accuracy, or 167 00:04:45.390 --> 00:04:47.549 political expediency necessarily. 168 00:04:47.550 --> 00:04:50.039 So much of their work is about 169 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:52.499 exploring the invisible 170 00:04:52.500 --> 00:04:54.449 of trying to visualize that which 171 00:04:54.450 --> 00:04:56.309 has not been seen for 172 00:04:56.310 --> 00:04:58.319 Titian's generation 173 00:04:58.320 --> 00:05:00.209 and for much of Renaissance art 174 00:05:00.210 --> 00:05:01.979 in general. A lot of that is 175 00:05:01.980 --> 00:05:02.879 Christian imagery. 176 00:05:02.880 --> 00:05:04.829 How do you paint a convincing angel 177 00:05:04.830 --> 00:05:06.809 when nobody has ever seen one? 178 00:05:06.810 --> 00:05:08.909 How do you narrate the 179 00:05:08.910 --> 00:05:11.009 assumption of the Virgin, 180 00:05:11.010 --> 00:05:12.471 a story in which the 181 00:05:13.500 --> 00:05:15.419 mother of Christ ascends 182 00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:18.449 into heaven in her entire body? 183 00:05:18.450 --> 00:05:20.909 That's a very kind of miraculous 184 00:05:20.910 --> 00:05:22.889 but also a supernatural 185 00:05:22.890 --> 00:05:24.269 event. 186 00:05:24.270 --> 00:05:25.529 I think the closest parallel in 187 00:05:25.530 --> 00:05:28.259 terms of modern, contemporary 188 00:05:28.260 --> 00:05:30.149 formats and genres is 189 00:05:30.150 --> 00:05:31.259 action-hero films. 190 00:05:31.260 --> 00:05:32.969 Now, that's a category that we think 191 00:05:32.970 --> 00:05:35.339 of as being very lowly, perhaps 192 00:05:35.340 --> 00:05:37.769 to some, but it's actually 193 00:05:37.770 --> 00:05:39.659 very similar to the kinds 194 00:05:39.660 --> 00:05:41.699 of logistic 195 00:05:41.700 --> 00:05:43.409 challenges that an artist like 196 00:05:43.410 --> 00:05:45.269 Titian or his contemporaries, and 197 00:05:45.270 --> 00:05:46.749 the Florentines involved as well. 198 00:05:46.750 --> 00:05:48.419 I mean, Michelangelo's Last Judgment 199 00:05:48.420 --> 00:05:50.729 is very much about how do I depict 200 00:05:50.730 --> 00:05:52.379 something that is so full of horror 201 00:05:52.380 --> 00:05:54.419 and dread in a realistic way 202 00:05:54.420 --> 00:05:57.059 that will convince the spectator 203 00:05:57.060 --> 00:05:59.369 that what he or she sees before them 204 00:05:59.370 --> 00:06:01.649 is the real thing, 205 00:06:01.650 --> 00:06:03.809 all whilst knowing that it is 206 00:06:03.810 --> 00:06:04.739 ultimately a fiction. 207 00:06:04.740 --> 00:06:06.209 It's paint on a surface, whether 208 00:06:06.210 --> 00:06:08.549 it's canvas or a fresco wall, 209 00:06:08.550 --> 00:06:10.170 but nevertheless, that same 210 00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:13.289 desire to 211 00:06:13.290 --> 00:06:15.329 push the spectator to suspend 212 00:06:15.330 --> 00:06:17.009 his or her disbelief in the moment 213 00:06:17.010 --> 00:06:18.629 of confrontation with the artwork. 214 00:06:18.630 --> 00:06:20.459 And to that extent, the kind of 215 00:06:20.460 --> 00:06:21.989 Christian narratives of the 216 00:06:21.990 --> 00:06:23.999 Renaissance are almost 217 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:24.779 secondary. 218 00:06:24.780 --> 00:06:25.949 I mean, they're very important, of 219 00:06:25.950 --> 00:06:28.079 course. But the effect 220 00:06:28.080 --> 00:06:29.999 of art is really to move the 221 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.459 spectator and demonstrate 222 00:06:32.460 --> 00:06:34.739 to the viewer that 223 00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:36.779 with the 224 00:06:36.780 --> 00:06:37.780 meager 225 00:06:39.300 --> 00:06:41.399 materials of the artist that 226 00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:43.649 they're capable of creating this 227 00:06:43.650 --> 00:06:45.599 vast world that 228 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:47.459 is beyond normal, everyday 229 00:06:47.460 --> 00:06:48.563 human perception. 230 00:06:50.100 --> 00:06:52.329 Yeah. Well, you begin the-- 231 00:06:52.330 --> 00:06:54.209 in Titian's Touch, you begin the 232 00:06:54.210 --> 00:06:56.219 book by comparing 233 00:06:56.220 --> 00:06:58.769 two of his portraits. 234 00:06:58.770 --> 00:06:59.879 And there's one from the beginning 235 00:06:59.880 --> 00:07:01.188 of his career and one from later in 236 00:07:01.189 --> 00:07:02.549 his career. And portraits are 237 00:07:02.550 --> 00:07:04.619 something you focused on extensively 238 00:07:04.620 --> 00:07:06.719 in other parts of your writing, too. 239 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:08.009 In your second book, for example, 240 00:07:08.010 --> 00:07:09.569 Still Lives: Death, Desire, and the 241 00:07:09.570 --> 00:07:11.049 Transformation of the Old Master, is 242 00:07:11.050 --> 00:07:12.959 the book that takes up portraiture 243 00:07:12.960 --> 00:07:13.960 in a central way. 244 00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:17.319 Titian painted so many different-- 245 00:07:17.320 --> 00:07:18.809 he had so many kinds of paintings. 246 00:07:18.810 --> 00:07:20.519 So why begin with portraits? 247 00:07:21.570 --> 00:07:23.099 I think again, with portraits, it's 248 00:07:23.100 --> 00:07:24.959 one of the genres that art 249 00:07:24.960 --> 00:07:27.509 historians tend to gloss over. 250 00:07:27.510 --> 00:07:28.829 If it's a portrait of someone 251 00:07:28.830 --> 00:07:30.749 famous, then it almost 252 00:07:30.750 --> 00:07:32.609 immediately goes to the biography 253 00:07:32.610 --> 00:07:33.989 of the famous person. 254 00:07:33.990 --> 00:07:35.559 And if it's an unknown sitter, then 255 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:37.439 it's enough to say 256 00:07:37.440 --> 00:07:38.819 this is a portrait of a lady or 257 00:07:38.820 --> 00:07:40.739 portrait of a man and move 258 00:07:40.740 --> 00:07:42.809 on. But I think one of the 259 00:07:42.810 --> 00:07:44.699 fascinating aspects of portraiture, 260 00:07:44.700 --> 00:07:46.619 especially in our 261 00:07:46.620 --> 00:07:48.569 own context now, is with 262 00:07:48.570 --> 00:07:50.639 the rise of selfie culture, which, 263 00:07:50.640 --> 00:07:52.169 I mean, even at the moment of 264 00:07:52.170 --> 00:07:53.939 recording this, a podcast is already 265 00:07:53.940 --> 00:07:54.959 on its way out, I think. 266 00:07:56.100 --> 00:07:58.109 But the idea of portraying 267 00:07:58.110 --> 00:07:59.999 yourself, of performing yourself, 268 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:01.919 of allowing your image 269 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:04.079 to speak on your behalf in a world 270 00:08:04.080 --> 00:08:05.579 that is beyond your control and that 271 00:08:05.580 --> 00:08:07.559 is also beyond you, is 272 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:09.269 something very fascinating to me in 273 00:08:09.270 --> 00:08:11.609 terms of all of these 274 00:08:11.610 --> 00:08:13.739 anonymous faces that we 275 00:08:13.740 --> 00:08:15.479 have lost, perhaps, the thread of 276 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:16.859 who they were. 277 00:08:16.860 --> 00:08:17.969 But certainly, when they were 278 00:08:17.970 --> 00:08:19.919 painted, they were painted 279 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:21.899 of someone and for someone. 280 00:08:21.900 --> 00:08:23.294 And those memories may 281 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:26.699 have been lost to history, but 282 00:08:26.700 --> 00:08:28.529 they were very active 283 00:08:28.530 --> 00:08:30.599 at some points in the past. 284 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:32.579 So I think of all of the-- I 285 00:08:32.580 --> 00:08:34.709 think of all of the thousands 286 00:08:34.710 --> 00:08:36.538 of selfies that most people have on 287 00:08:36.539 --> 00:08:37.589 their phone. 288 00:08:37.590 --> 00:08:38.590 And one 289 00:08:39.630 --> 00:08:41.849 day, archeologists might discover 290 00:08:41.850 --> 00:08:43.349 all of these images and wonder who 291 00:08:43.350 --> 00:08:44.719 these people were. 292 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:46.439 I remember speaking with my students 293 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:48.479 at one point about selfies, and 294 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:49.709 I said, "I think I only have about 295 00:08:49.710 --> 00:08:51.659 seven of them on my phone." 296 00:08:51.660 --> 00:08:53.789 And most of them are actually-- 297 00:08:53.790 --> 00:08:54.929 I used a selfie 298 00:08:56.670 --> 00:08:58.589 mechanism to take photographs of 299 00:08:58.590 --> 00:08:59.939 ceiling paintings, so I don't have 300 00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:01.649 to crane my neck mostly. 301 00:09:01.650 --> 00:09:02.609 And they were shocked. 302 00:09:02.610 --> 00:09:03.419 They said, "You only have seven 303 00:09:03.420 --> 00:09:05.369 selfies on your phone?" And 304 00:09:05.370 --> 00:09:06.779 it never occurred to me that was a 305 00:09:06.780 --> 00:09:08.549 strange thing. But obviously, I grew 306 00:09:08.550 --> 00:09:10.079 up in a different moment when that 307 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:11.219 kind of technology wasn't 308 00:09:11.220 --> 00:09:13.469 immediately accessible. 309 00:09:13.470 --> 00:09:15.839 And so that's part of my interest in 310 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:17.609 portraits because portraiture is a 311 00:09:17.610 --> 00:09:18.610 genre that, to 312 00:09:19.470 --> 00:09:21.599 such an extent, is more relevant 313 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:24.029 now than it ever was before. 314 00:09:24.030 --> 00:09:26.369 Yeah, thinking about 315 00:09:26.370 --> 00:09:27.869 your work and talking with you here 316 00:09:27.870 --> 00:09:29.039 had me thinking about-- I got to 317 00:09:29.040 --> 00:09:29.849 thinking about portraits. 318 00:09:29.850 --> 00:09:30.899 And so I went and just kind of 319 00:09:30.900 --> 00:09:32.819 like-- the big news 320 00:09:32.820 --> 00:09:34.619 in the US over the last year in 321 00:09:34.620 --> 00:09:36.599 terms of portraits is the Obamas, 322 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:38.099 and they're new. And there, too, the 323 00:09:38.100 --> 00:09:39.269 portraits of them in the National 324 00:09:39.270 --> 00:09:41.549 Portrait Gallery in D.C.. 325 00:09:41.550 --> 00:09:43.559 Attendance has nearly doubled 326 00:09:43.560 --> 00:09:45.149 in the last year because of these 327 00:09:45.150 --> 00:09:46.679 portraits. They're massively 328 00:09:46.680 --> 00:09:47.680 popular. 329 00:09:48.690 --> 00:09:50.429 I was thinking about the way that 330 00:09:50.430 --> 00:09:51.488 you write about portrait 331 00:09:54.660 --> 00:09:56.279 painting as being an interaction 332 00:09:56.280 --> 00:09:58.011 between an artist and the sitter, 333 00:09:58.012 --> 00:09:59.012 the person who's 334 00:10:00.520 --> 00:10:02.309 the subject of the painting. 335 00:10:02.310 --> 00:10:04.169 But I think, and this is kind of an 336 00:10:04.170 --> 00:10:06.029 assumption, although we just kind 337 00:10:06.030 --> 00:10:07.439 of talked about it a little bit, 338 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:09.059 most people think of portraits as 339 00:10:09.060 --> 00:10:10.259 being just kind of an objective 340 00:10:10.260 --> 00:10:11.759 point. As you said, you go right to 341 00:10:11.760 --> 00:10:14.009 the biography of the person 342 00:10:14.010 --> 00:10:15.630 that is there. 343 00:10:16.680 --> 00:10:18.029 I don't know. 344 00:10:18.030 --> 00:10:19.739 How does any of this-- does any of 345 00:10:19.740 --> 00:10:21.869 this relate for you to the massive 346 00:10:21.870 --> 00:10:24.149 popularity of those portraits? 347 00:10:24.150 --> 00:10:25.739 Does this help you think help us 348 00:10:25.740 --> 00:10:27.599 think at all of why so many 349 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:28.529 people have gone there? 350 00:10:28.530 --> 00:10:29.639 Is it just the Obamas? 351 00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:30.640 Is it the particular-- Kehinde 352 00:10:31.860 --> 00:10:33.929 Wiley and Amy Sherald, who painted 353 00:10:33.930 --> 00:10:35.849 them, are they responsible 354 00:10:35.850 --> 00:10:37.739 in some way as figures 355 00:10:37.740 --> 00:10:39.659 for the popularity of the paintings? 356 00:10:39.660 --> 00:10:41.399 I think, yes, because you have the 357 00:10:41.400 --> 00:10:43.409 double celebrity of the artists as 358 00:10:43.410 --> 00:10:45.329 well as the sitters in that 359 00:10:45.330 --> 00:10:46.330 particular case. 360 00:10:47.460 --> 00:10:49.229 Celebrity is something that 361 00:10:49.230 --> 00:10:51.929 becomes-- I mean, that becomes 362 00:10:51.930 --> 00:10:53.579 not invented, but certainly, it 363 00:10:53.580 --> 00:10:55.121 becomes expanded in the Renaissance. 364 00:10:56.430 --> 00:10:59.069 One of the first celebrities 365 00:10:59.070 --> 00:11:01.559 whose portrait circulated 366 00:11:01.560 --> 00:11:03.629 across Europe was, in a sense, 367 00:11:04.680 --> 00:11:06.869 Calvin and Luther because 368 00:11:06.870 --> 00:11:08.519 their supporters wanted to see the 369 00:11:08.520 --> 00:11:10.679 face of these great thinkers, 370 00:11:10.680 --> 00:11:12.509 and their haters wanted to see the 371 00:11:12.510 --> 00:11:13.739 face of these great thinkers as 372 00:11:13.740 --> 00:11:15.329 well. So it was a very interesting 373 00:11:15.330 --> 00:11:16.835 moment where suddenly the face, 374 00:11:16.836 --> 00:11:19.169 attached to the ideas 375 00:11:19.170 --> 00:11:21.029 that were circulating, became 376 00:11:21.030 --> 00:11:22.889 equally of interest 377 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:26.309 to people 378 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:29.339 who, in all likelihood, would never 379 00:11:29.340 --> 00:11:30.719 meet these figures. 380 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:32.279 And I think that's a bit of the same 381 00:11:32.280 --> 00:11:34.349 thing with portraits of 382 00:11:34.350 --> 00:11:36.509 Michelle and Barack Obama. 383 00:11:36.510 --> 00:11:38.489 There is a sense of being near 384 00:11:38.490 --> 00:11:40.139 them. And that is why people tend to 385 00:11:40.140 --> 00:11:41.759 go into museums and take selfies 386 00:11:41.760 --> 00:11:43.589 with paintings as well. 387 00:11:43.590 --> 00:11:45.569 It becomes a self-portrait of 388 00:11:45.570 --> 00:11:47.609 themselves with the celebrity, which 389 00:11:47.610 --> 00:11:49.589 in some cases is an 390 00:11:49.590 --> 00:11:51.659 image of someone famous, 391 00:11:51.660 --> 00:11:53.699 but in other instances, is a famous 392 00:11:53.700 --> 00:11:55.889 painting such as the Mona Lisa 393 00:11:55.890 --> 00:11:58.289 or any other number of 394 00:11:58.290 --> 00:12:00.359 artworks in museums 395 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:02.039 that are subjected to these nonstop 396 00:12:02.040 --> 00:12:03.329 selfies. 397 00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:04.829 So, on the one hand, there's the 398 00:12:04.830 --> 00:12:06.209 question of surrogacy. 399 00:12:06.210 --> 00:12:08.159 The portrait itself stands in for 400 00:12:08.160 --> 00:12:10.589 the famous person that is absent. 401 00:12:10.590 --> 00:12:11.759 And on the other hand, there's the 402 00:12:11.760 --> 00:12:12.989 issue of celebrity. 403 00:12:12.990 --> 00:12:14.879 These are famous people 404 00:12:14.880 --> 00:12:16.979 that one wants to be photographed 405 00:12:16.980 --> 00:12:17.980 with. 406 00:12:18.690 --> 00:12:19.690 Yeah. 407 00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:22.439 And then, one other thing maybe 408 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:23.669 to kind of add to this or just to 409 00:12:23.670 --> 00:12:25.559 continue off of that idea - I'm 410 00:12:25.560 --> 00:12:27.539 thinking again about some 411 00:12:27.540 --> 00:12:29.429 of the goals of your new book - is 412 00:12:29.430 --> 00:12:31.529 that you talk about the fact 413 00:12:31.530 --> 00:12:33.119 that people normally spend - what is 414 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.129 it - 27.2 seconds in front 415 00:12:35.130 --> 00:12:37.109 of an artwork. 416 00:12:37.110 --> 00:12:39.029 And you're working to try to get 417 00:12:39.030 --> 00:12:40.859 people to work more slowly, to 418 00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:42.869 spend more time, and to teach people 419 00:12:42.870 --> 00:12:44.099 how to spend more time in certain 420 00:12:44.100 --> 00:12:46.649 ways with art. 421 00:12:46.650 --> 00:12:48.059 But then you also acknowledge that 422 00:12:48.060 --> 00:12:49.919 it's hard that-- 423 00:12:49.920 --> 00:12:51.359 well, that people are often daunted 424 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:52.739 by the amount of contextual 425 00:12:52.740 --> 00:12:54.209 knowledge they assume they need to 426 00:12:54.210 --> 00:12:56.519 have a meaningful experience with 427 00:12:56.520 --> 00:12:58.169 paintings of the distant past-- from 428 00:12:58.170 --> 00:12:59.170 the distant past. 429 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.699 So how would someone navigate 430 00:13:02.700 --> 00:13:04.207 those two things? 431 00:13:04.208 --> 00:13:05.699 And you could maybe talk about it 432 00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:07.479 with regard to Titian, but others 433 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.089 too if you like. 434 00:13:09.090 --> 00:13:10.139 What would you say to someone who 435 00:13:10.140 --> 00:13:11.609 doesn't know anything really about 436 00:13:11.610 --> 00:13:13.589 Titian and instruct that person on 437 00:13:13.590 --> 00:13:15.329 what should that person do in 438 00:13:15.330 --> 00:13:16.679 standing in front of a painting? 439 00:13:16.680 --> 00:13:18.269 Well, they could start by doing a 440 00:13:18.270 --> 00:13:19.379 degree in the humanities. 441 00:13:21.300 --> 00:13:23.249 I mean, so many 442 00:13:23.250 --> 00:13:25.109 people often ask me, "What's 443 00:13:25.110 --> 00:13:27.569 the use of the humanities anyway? 444 00:13:27.570 --> 00:13:28.769 Can I just sit at home and read a 445 00:13:28.770 --> 00:13:30.029 book on my own?" It's like, yes, you 446 00:13:30.030 --> 00:13:31.919 could, but you probably won't. 447 00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:33.719 And even if you do, you don't have 448 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:35.429 anyone to discuss it with. 449 00:13:35.430 --> 00:13:36.866 And that's part of the pleasure of 450 00:13:37.920 --> 00:13:39.899 reading, of going to museums, of 451 00:13:39.900 --> 00:13:41.609 culture, in general, is that moment 452 00:13:41.610 --> 00:13:43.529 of sharing. I mean, we're sitting so 453 00:13:43.530 --> 00:13:45.419 close to the Cathedral of Learning, 454 00:13:45.420 --> 00:13:47.669 and it is such a monument to 455 00:13:47.670 --> 00:13:49.709 a earlier 456 00:13:49.710 --> 00:13:52.049 American vision of what education 457 00:13:52.050 --> 00:13:53.549 and culture meant, what it meant to 458 00:13:53.550 --> 00:13:55.379 be a human. 459 00:13:55.380 --> 00:13:56.849 And that is, ultimately, well, the 460 00:13:56.850 --> 00:13:58.379 subject of your podcast, but also 461 00:13:58.380 --> 00:14:00.659 the importance of the humanities. 462 00:14:00.660 --> 00:14:03.569 I always tell my-- 463 00:14:03.570 --> 00:14:05.549 well, I come from a family of a lot 464 00:14:05.550 --> 00:14:07.529 of computer scientists and 465 00:14:07.530 --> 00:14:09.110 an extended family of 466 00:14:10.230 --> 00:14:11.230 doctors and 467 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:13.919 people in the hard sciences. 468 00:14:13.920 --> 00:14:15.659 And at the end of the day, do you 469 00:14:15.660 --> 00:14:17.609 want to watch a Game of Thrones 470 00:14:17.610 --> 00:14:19.109 or do you want to watch and listen 471 00:14:19.110 --> 00:14:21.509 to C-SPAN for 3 hours? 472 00:14:21.510 --> 00:14:23.159 Because without the humanities, you 473 00:14:23.160 --> 00:14:24.989 don't have-- we are, in a 474 00:14:24.990 --> 00:14:26.849 sense, in the process 475 00:14:26.850 --> 00:14:28.349 of making dreamers. 476 00:14:28.350 --> 00:14:30.269 And without dreamers, you don't have 477 00:14:30.270 --> 00:14:31.979 fantasy. Without fantasy, you can't 478 00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:33.869 envision a better world. 479 00:14:33.870 --> 00:14:35.249 And that is why the humanities are 480 00:14:35.250 --> 00:14:37.109 so important. It helps you think 481 00:14:37.110 --> 00:14:38.939 about a possibility, 482 00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:40.949 a kind of a world 483 00:14:40.950 --> 00:14:42.359 to come. 484 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:44.189 And people draw on 485 00:14:44.190 --> 00:14:46.259 both political utopias, whether 486 00:14:46.260 --> 00:14:48.239 that's a Marxist fantasy, or 487 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:50.339 Christian utopias, whether that's a 488 00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:52.079 kind of paradise in the distance. 489 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.239 But both of these segments 490 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.159 of society are bound by a desire 491 00:14:56.160 --> 00:14:57.359 for a better world. 492 00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:58.799 And that is, at bottom, what the 493 00:14:58.800 --> 00:15:00.599 humanities provide for us. 494 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:02.579 Now, with someone like Titian, 495 00:15:02.580 --> 00:15:04.379 a painter who's working in a 496 00:15:04.380 --> 00:15:05.999 Christian idiom through a Christian 497 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:07.589 vocabulary much of the time when 498 00:15:07.590 --> 00:15:09.689 it's not portraiture or mythological 499 00:15:09.690 --> 00:15:12.359 images, a lot of that is about 500 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:14.609 bringing the gods a bit closer to 501 00:15:14.610 --> 00:15:16.139 the everyday person. 502 00:15:16.140 --> 00:15:18.329 And that's important in a moment, 503 00:15:18.330 --> 00:15:20.189 such as the 16th century, which is 504 00:15:20.190 --> 00:15:22.649 marked by constant war, 505 00:15:22.650 --> 00:15:24.719 constant plague, constant 506 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:26.549 inequality, constant 507 00:15:26.550 --> 00:15:28.949 divisions between society, 508 00:15:28.950 --> 00:15:31.109 and also moments of 509 00:15:31.110 --> 00:15:33.119 terrifying discoveries. 510 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:35.249 And I don't mean just the 511 00:15:35.250 --> 00:15:37.439 new world, a kind of 512 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:39.269 a politics of moving into 513 00:15:39.270 --> 00:15:41.459 a whole nother continent that was 514 00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:44.069 previously unknown to the Europeans, 515 00:15:44.070 --> 00:15:47.039 but also just in terms of within 516 00:15:47.040 --> 00:15:48.989 Europe itself, within political 517 00:15:48.990 --> 00:15:51.299 divisions to do with religion. 518 00:15:51.300 --> 00:15:53.219 But also, we forget 519 00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:55.109 how terrifying mapping out 520 00:15:55.110 --> 00:15:57.059 the anatomical body was. 521 00:15:57.060 --> 00:15:59.039 Finding new origins, trying 522 00:15:59.040 --> 00:16:01.259 to figure out how the circulation 523 00:16:01.260 --> 00:16:02.069 of blood works. 524 00:16:02.070 --> 00:16:03.419 I mean, that's not something that 525 00:16:03.420 --> 00:16:05.309 happens to the 17th century. 526 00:16:05.310 --> 00:16:07.169 So there are a lot of unknowns. 527 00:16:07.170 --> 00:16:09.449 And to a certain extent, an artist 528 00:16:09.450 --> 00:16:11.279 is able, like 529 00:16:11.280 --> 00:16:13.439 the science fiction novelists, 530 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:15.449 to envision something that has not 531 00:16:15.450 --> 00:16:17.369 yet come and that might 532 00:16:17.370 --> 00:16:18.750 one day be possible. 533 00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:21.239 And in that regard, 534 00:16:22.950 --> 00:16:25.049 a painter like Titian is able 535 00:16:25.050 --> 00:16:26.050 to provide 536 00:16:28.920 --> 00:16:30.869 his immediate audience with a sense 537 00:16:30.870 --> 00:16:33.089 of visual possibilities of 538 00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:34.979 worlds that they may or may not 539 00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:36.719 ever encounter or experience. 540 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.729 Yeah. Would there be-- and 541 00:16:38.730 --> 00:16:40.739 that's for his immediate audience. 542 00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:41.639 You mean people who would have seen 543 00:16:41.640 --> 00:16:43.319 his paintings then at the moment. 544 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:44.639 How about now? 545 00:16:44.640 --> 00:16:46.769 I think every time you engage with 546 00:16:46.770 --> 00:16:49.229 a portrait or 547 00:16:49.230 --> 00:16:51.659 a religious image or a mythological 548 00:16:51.660 --> 00:16:53.129 tale, even if you don't know who 549 00:16:53.130 --> 00:16:55.349 that sitter is, even though 550 00:16:55.350 --> 00:16:57.419 you don't know the story, 551 00:16:57.420 --> 00:16:59.039 you don't know the passage from Ovid 552 00:16:59.040 --> 00:17:01.079 or Catullus or whatever ancient 553 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:03.869 authority, or which Bible 554 00:17:03.870 --> 00:17:06.479 book a particular 555 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:07.480 scene is from. 556 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.828 The point is, it's a work of art, 557 00:17:10.829 --> 00:17:12.689 and like poetry, painting is there 558 00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:14.969 to engage, to have a conversation, 559 00:17:14.970 --> 00:17:17.368 to push and challenge the spectator 560 00:17:17.369 --> 00:17:19.318 rather than to tell him 561 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:20.639 or her everything they're supposed 562 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.739 to think. Now, that is a commercial. 563 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:24.779 And in a sense, a work 564 00:17:24.780 --> 00:17:26.939 of art, a painting, a 565 00:17:26.940 --> 00:17:28.919 piece of music, or a 566 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:30.899 poem is there to push 567 00:17:30.900 --> 00:17:33.179 you to be a bit puzzling 568 00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:34.949 so that you ask yourself, "What is 569 00:17:34.950 --> 00:17:36.959 this supposed to mean? 570 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:38.429 What am I supposed to get out of 571 00:17:38.430 --> 00:17:40.289 this?" And in 572 00:17:40.290 --> 00:17:42.329 that process, it kind of makes 573 00:17:42.330 --> 00:17:44.879 you-- it's mental acrobatics 574 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:46.769 and intellectual yoga. 575 00:17:46.770 --> 00:17:48.869 It strengthens your ability to face 576 00:17:48.870 --> 00:17:50.699 the unknown and to 577 00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:52.529 think on your feet, which is really 578 00:17:52.530 --> 00:17:53.969 important. 579 00:17:53.970 --> 00:17:55.799 If the artist or 580 00:17:55.800 --> 00:17:57.449 the poet or the musician wanted you 581 00:17:57.450 --> 00:17:59.189 to know exactly what they thought, 582 00:17:59.190 --> 00:18:00.419 they would say so. 583 00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:01.529 And then that would be the end of 584 00:18:01.530 --> 00:18:02.309 the conversation. 585 00:18:02.310 --> 00:18:03.599 There would be no room for you to 586 00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:05.999 respond or to question 587 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.189 the kind of opacity 588 00:18:08.190 --> 00:18:10.109 sometimes that we are faced with. 589 00:18:10.110 --> 00:18:12.029 Yeah. It seems to 590 00:18:12.030 --> 00:18:13.259 me like, you can tell me if this is 591 00:18:13.260 --> 00:18:15.329 true or not, that the period 592 00:18:15.330 --> 00:18:16.749 that you write about, that is 593 00:18:16.750 --> 00:18:19.559 Renaissance in early modern work, 594 00:18:19.560 --> 00:18:21.359 that maybe is particularly 595 00:18:21.360 --> 00:18:23.309 susceptible to people assuming 596 00:18:23.310 --> 00:18:25.139 that these are masters who we 597 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:26.789 can only learn from, and they tell 598 00:18:26.790 --> 00:18:28.499 us everything, and we venerate them, 599 00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:30.059 and worship at their feet. 600 00:18:30.060 --> 00:18:31.229 That kind of thing. And it seems to 601 00:18:31.230 --> 00:18:33.179 me like one of the things 602 00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:34.739 you enjoy is kind of undermining 603 00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:36.509 that idea and showing how these 604 00:18:36.510 --> 00:18:38.159 works continue to live in the 605 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.319 decades and centuries after 606 00:18:40.320 --> 00:18:42.269 them with people taking up 607 00:18:42.270 --> 00:18:43.289 their work. I'm thinking, in 608 00:18:43.290 --> 00:18:44.819 particular, of your first book here, 609 00:18:44.820 --> 00:18:46.679 Titian Remade, in the way that 610 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:48.719 you focused on someone who 611 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:49.829 followed Titian and who wasn't very 612 00:18:49.830 --> 00:18:51.509 well known at the time, but the way 613 00:18:51.510 --> 00:18:53.129 that that painter kind of brought 614 00:18:53.130 --> 00:18:55.109 Titian - Remade is the title - 615 00:18:55.110 --> 00:18:56.544 and remade Titian at that point. 616 00:18:56.545 --> 00:18:58.589 Is that something that sounds 617 00:18:58.590 --> 00:18:59.409 right to you? 618 00:18:59.410 --> 00:19:00.749 Describing your work in that way, 619 00:19:00.750 --> 00:19:01.799 that this is something you enjoy 620 00:19:01.800 --> 00:19:02.859 doing? 621 00:19:02.860 --> 00:19:04.529 Well, I had never thought of it that 622 00:19:04.530 --> 00:19:06.089 way, but I suppose so. 623 00:19:06.090 --> 00:19:08.339 I'm very interested in the ways 624 00:19:08.340 --> 00:19:10.499 that we can recycle and upcycle 625 00:19:10.500 --> 00:19:11.819 things. And I don't mean that 626 00:19:11.820 --> 00:19:13.709 necessarily just in a green 627 00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:14.489 or eco sense. 628 00:19:14.490 --> 00:19:15.449 I mean, that, of course, is 629 00:19:15.450 --> 00:19:17.369 important for, 630 00:19:17.370 --> 00:19:19.229 especially, the younger generations. 631 00:19:19.230 --> 00:19:20.429 This is something they're extremely 632 00:19:20.430 --> 00:19:22.499 invested in for good reasons. 633 00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:24.659 But I also just mean in terms 634 00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.639 of efficiency and frugality 635 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:27.640 and pragmatism. 636 00:19:28.710 --> 00:19:30.359 I come from an immigrant family 637 00:19:30.360 --> 00:19:32.039 where everything was recycled or 638 00:19:32.040 --> 00:19:33.809 reused, and I think there's a lot to 639 00:19:33.810 --> 00:19:36.059 be said in finding new uses 640 00:19:36.060 --> 00:19:38.039 for old things. 641 00:19:38.040 --> 00:19:39.509 I suppose, at bottom, I'm very 642 00:19:39.510 --> 00:19:41.430 interested in the 643 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:44.159 connection between anxiety and 644 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:44.958 technology as well. 645 00:19:44.959 --> 00:19:46.889 The renaissance 646 00:19:46.890 --> 00:19:49.019 is very similar to our own times 647 00:19:49.020 --> 00:19:51.059 in the sense that it was a moment 648 00:19:51.060 --> 00:19:53.309 in which the printing press enabled 649 00:19:53.310 --> 00:19:55.319 ideas suddenly to be everywhere 650 00:19:55.320 --> 00:19:56.399 all at once. 651 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:58.116 Now, one of the great surprises 652 00:20:00.470 --> 00:20:02.119 for people in the 15th and 16th 653 00:20:02.120 --> 00:20:04.339 centuries was that when 654 00:20:04.340 --> 00:20:05.749 great masterpieces, as you 655 00:20:05.750 --> 00:20:07.879 mentioned, such as 656 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:09.859 Homer's writings and 657 00:20:09.860 --> 00:20:11.869 the kind of 658 00:20:11.870 --> 00:20:13.759 the trials and tribulations of a 659 00:20:13.760 --> 00:20:15.120 hero like Odysseus 660 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:19.699 were translated, suddenly people 661 00:20:19.700 --> 00:20:21.259 thought, "Oh, that's not very 662 00:20:21.260 --> 00:20:22.909 heroic. This is just a story about a 663 00:20:22.910 --> 00:20:24.589 man who can't get home, who's 664 00:20:24.590 --> 00:20:26.059 running off and hanging out with 665 00:20:26.060 --> 00:20:27.949 nymphs on islands, and who has 666 00:20:27.950 --> 00:20:29.239 abandoned his men, in a sense. 667 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:31.069 Who's lost his men." 668 00:20:31.070 --> 00:20:32.599 There's nothing particularly heroic 669 00:20:32.600 --> 00:20:33.889 about that. 670 00:20:33.890 --> 00:20:35.779 And for generations to come, in the 671 00:20:35.780 --> 00:20:37.669 16th century, that is why Virgil 672 00:20:37.670 --> 00:20:39.889 became so much more important 673 00:20:39.890 --> 00:20:40.947 as a literary figure 674 00:20:42.500 --> 00:20:44.419 because Aeneas was a good hero. 675 00:20:44.420 --> 00:20:47.419 Here's a hero who's really trying to 676 00:20:47.420 --> 00:20:49.339 keep it together, who's got his 677 00:20:49.340 --> 00:20:51.259 eye on a goal, 678 00:20:51.260 --> 00:20:53.019 and is not dillydallying through all 679 00:20:53.020 --> 00:20:55.069 of the Greek islands in the 680 00:20:55.070 --> 00:20:56.959 slow return home to his poor, 681 00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:58.789 besieged wife, who's fighting 682 00:20:58.790 --> 00:21:00.619 off suitors left, right, and center. 683 00:21:00.620 --> 00:21:01.909 And so it's very interesting that in 684 00:21:01.910 --> 00:21:04.399 these moments of technological 685 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:06.259 sophistication, works 686 00:21:06.260 --> 00:21:08.029 start to become demystified. 687 00:21:08.030 --> 00:21:09.839 And certainly, in our own time, with 688 00:21:09.840 --> 00:21:12.589 the facility of disseminating 689 00:21:12.590 --> 00:21:14.509 things across the Internet, 690 00:21:14.510 --> 00:21:16.039 there is a moment of information 691 00:21:16.040 --> 00:21:17.869 overload where people start 692 00:21:17.870 --> 00:21:20.329 becoming saturated by both 693 00:21:20.330 --> 00:21:22.429 texts, new stories, 694 00:21:22.430 --> 00:21:23.599 and images as well. 695 00:21:25.460 --> 00:21:27.709 And the rise of skepticism 696 00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:29.719 towards media, the idea 697 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:31.459 of fake news, is not unfounded 698 00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:32.629 because there's just so much 699 00:21:32.630 --> 00:21:34.189 material, and it becomes difficult 700 00:21:34.190 --> 00:21:36.079 to know how to sort through 701 00:21:36.080 --> 00:21:37.969 it all. Which, again, is why the 702 00:21:37.970 --> 00:21:38.959 humanities matter. 703 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:40.999 The humanities prepare you for 704 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:42.769 thinking on your feet, thinking 705 00:21:42.770 --> 00:21:44.839 before an image, of drawing on 706 00:21:44.840 --> 00:21:47.029 your experiences with history 707 00:21:47.030 --> 00:21:49.639 and past patterns, events, 708 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:51.829 and revolutions, and 709 00:21:51.830 --> 00:21:54.019 moments of both enlightenment 710 00:21:54.020 --> 00:21:55.639 and darkness to think through. 711 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:57.259 What are the possibilities of what 712 00:21:57.260 --> 00:21:59.029 it is I'm looking at, and what might 713 00:21:59.030 --> 00:22:00.679 it mean to me now? 714 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:03.079 And how will future generations, 715 00:22:03.080 --> 00:22:04.939 future historians look back upon 716 00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:06.439 this artifact, and what will they 717 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:08.149 say? And that is, in a sense, very 718 00:22:08.150 --> 00:22:10.069 much at bottom what 719 00:22:10.070 --> 00:22:11.749 I'm interested in, in all of the 720 00:22:11.750 --> 00:22:13.309 different subjects I've been looking 721 00:22:13.310 --> 00:22:13.699 at. 722 00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:16.339 Yeah, well, it makes for 723 00:22:16.340 --> 00:22:18.409 really exciting writing. 724 00:22:18.410 --> 00:22:20.029 I will say one thing it does for me 725 00:22:20.030 --> 00:22:21.030 when I read it. And 726 00:22:22.430 --> 00:22:24.079 just to kind of like follow-up or to 727 00:22:24.080 --> 00:22:25.499 have a kind of particular question 728 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:27.379 that seems like a follow-up to 729 00:22:27.380 --> 00:22:29.179 me there, is that one of the ways to 730 00:22:29.180 --> 00:22:31.249 me that it seems like you 731 00:22:31.250 --> 00:22:33.089 make sense of the paintings 732 00:22:33.090 --> 00:22:34.369 and the art history that you deal 733 00:22:34.370 --> 00:22:37.129 with is by using contemporary 734 00:22:37.130 --> 00:22:38.500 film. And this is seems like such 735 00:22:40.340 --> 00:22:42.619 an interesting, in some ways, 736 00:22:42.620 --> 00:22:43.999 I wouldn't say necessarily contrast. 737 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.619 I mean, you show that it's not 738 00:22:45.620 --> 00:22:47.389 really a contrast, and one can be 739 00:22:47.390 --> 00:22:49.249 used to understand the other 740 00:22:49.250 --> 00:22:50.809 in quite interesting, and important, 741 00:22:50.810 --> 00:22:51.829 and engaging ways. 742 00:22:53.270 --> 00:22:55.189 But when people write about your 743 00:22:55.190 --> 00:22:56.509 work, sometimes it comes like, oh, 744 00:22:56.510 --> 00:22:57.889 this was unexpected, but it was 745 00:22:57.890 --> 00:22:59.479 really great that you're using this 746 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:01.370 film in this way to understand 747 00:23:02.840 --> 00:23:03.979 early modern painting. 748 00:23:03.980 --> 00:23:04.879 Can you talk a little bit about 749 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:05.929 that? 750 00:23:05.930 --> 00:23:07.849 Why film is useful to 751 00:23:07.850 --> 00:23:09.259 you in that way? 752 00:23:09.260 --> 00:23:11.539 I think I'm just a film nerd. 753 00:23:11.540 --> 00:23:12.769 I love watching films. 754 00:23:12.770 --> 00:23:14.779 I love watching 755 00:23:14.780 --> 00:23:16.459 movies of all kinds and also 756 00:23:16.460 --> 00:23:18.409 thinking about how a film 757 00:23:18.410 --> 00:23:19.410 is constructed. 758 00:23:20.630 --> 00:23:22.969 The great art historian 759 00:23:22.970 --> 00:23:24.919 Erwin Panofsky had written 760 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:26.779 an essay about film, which 761 00:23:26.780 --> 00:23:28.819 is more often cited by film 762 00:23:28.820 --> 00:23:30.439 scholars, not surprisingly, than art 763 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:31.789 historians, who stick with his more 764 00:23:31.790 --> 00:23:33.619 iconographic material. 765 00:23:33.620 --> 00:23:35.204 And Panofsky really 766 00:23:36.230 --> 00:23:38.119 thought that film was the medium of 767 00:23:38.120 --> 00:23:38.899 today. 768 00:23:38.900 --> 00:23:40.849 And I absolutely think 769 00:23:40.850 --> 00:23:42.799 that if our Renaissance painters 770 00:23:42.800 --> 00:23:43.999 were today, they would all be 771 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.159 filmmakers because film enables-- 772 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:47.539 well, it's about modern 773 00:23:47.540 --> 00:23:49.309 technologies, and, ultimately, it's 774 00:23:49.310 --> 00:23:50.359 about storytelling. 775 00:23:50.360 --> 00:23:52.429 How do you tell a compelling story? 776 00:23:52.430 --> 00:23:54.319 How do you hold onto the 777 00:23:54.320 --> 00:23:56.269 tension of the spectator for more 778 00:23:56.270 --> 00:23:57.769 than 27 seconds? 779 00:23:57.770 --> 00:23:59.749 And how do you move 780 00:23:59.750 --> 00:24:01.339 them to the point that their lives 781 00:24:01.340 --> 00:24:03.499 are somehow transformed and changed 782 00:24:03.500 --> 00:24:04.909 after their encounter with the 783 00:24:04.910 --> 00:24:06.709 artwork? It doesn't have to be in an 784 00:24:06.710 --> 00:24:08.659 extremely life-changing way, but 785 00:24:08.660 --> 00:24:10.459 just in a way that has somehow made 786 00:24:10.460 --> 00:24:12.739 them think differently about their 787 00:24:12.740 --> 00:24:14.689 lives and about their 788 00:24:14.690 --> 00:24:16.669 surroundings in 789 00:24:16.670 --> 00:24:18.829 the interval of having come into 790 00:24:18.830 --> 00:24:20.239 contact with these artworks. 791 00:24:21.590 --> 00:24:23.869 Yes, so for Renaissance scholars, 792 00:24:23.870 --> 00:24:25.789 bringing in things that are 793 00:24:25.790 --> 00:24:27.409 not of the period is often 794 00:24:27.410 --> 00:24:29.779 considered extremely anachronistic. 795 00:24:29.780 --> 00:24:30.979 I think, well, so is bringing in 796 00:24:30.980 --> 00:24:32.329 photography. 797 00:24:32.330 --> 00:24:34.189 A photograph of 798 00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:36.439 a sculpture is as anachronistic, 799 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:38.569 in some sense, as thinking 800 00:24:38.570 --> 00:24:40.489 about parallels that might be drawn 801 00:24:40.490 --> 00:24:42.739 with the way filmmakers construct 802 00:24:42.740 --> 00:24:44.689 a narrative and manipulate 803 00:24:44.690 --> 00:24:46.129 the viewer. Because there's so much 804 00:24:46.130 --> 00:24:48.049 manipulation that is always going on 805 00:24:48.050 --> 00:24:49.939 in the visual arts in terms of how 806 00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:52.039 do we guide the spectator 807 00:24:52.040 --> 00:24:54.169 through a given visual 808 00:24:54.170 --> 00:24:55.170 artwork? 809 00:24:55.910 --> 00:24:58.039 I used to always joke with 810 00:24:58.040 --> 00:24:59.040 my students that 811 00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:02.189 the three great Venetian Renaissance 812 00:25:02.190 --> 00:25:04.049 artists - Titian, Tintoretto, 813 00:25:04.050 --> 00:25:05.609 and Veronese - if they were to come 814 00:25:05.610 --> 00:25:07.739 back now, Titian would be somewhere 815 00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:09.779 between Spielberg and Hitchcock 816 00:25:09.780 --> 00:25:11.789 because nobody can tell a story 817 00:25:11.790 --> 00:25:13.109 and set up a composition the 818 00:25:14.790 --> 00:25:16.679 way that Titian can. 819 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:18.479 Tintoretto would definitely be a 820 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:19.499 special effects man. 821 00:25:19.500 --> 00:25:21.359 He would be the James Cameron or 822 00:25:21.360 --> 00:25:22.649 whatever equivalent you want to draw 823 00:25:22.650 --> 00:25:23.579 on of today. 824 00:25:23.580 --> 00:25:25.469 Because special effects, lighting, 825 00:25:25.470 --> 00:25:27.599 color, the unexpected, 826 00:25:27.600 --> 00:25:29.549 the implosive, the immersive, those 827 00:25:29.550 --> 00:25:31.919 are qualities that you really find 828 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:33.115 when standing before a Tintoretto. 829 00:25:34.350 --> 00:25:35.789 At which point, I might make just a 830 00:25:35.790 --> 00:25:37.679 quick plug for all 831 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:39.359 of the exhibitions that are in 832 00:25:39.360 --> 00:25:41.699 Washington, D.C., at the moment 833 00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:43.979 to do with the 500th 834 00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:46.019 anniversary of Tintoretto. 835 00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:47.789 Because Tintoretto is certainly an 836 00:25:47.790 --> 00:25:49.859 artist whose works need to be seen 837 00:25:49.860 --> 00:25:52.169 in person in order to understand 838 00:25:52.170 --> 00:25:54.089 their effect upon the 839 00:25:54.090 --> 00:25:55.539 beholder. 840 00:25:55.540 --> 00:25:57.539 And, of course, there's the third 841 00:25:57.540 --> 00:25:59.189 painter, Veronese, who's often 842 00:25:59.190 --> 00:26:01.139 written off as a 843 00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:03.629 man of elegant fabrics 844 00:26:03.630 --> 00:26:05.069 and someone who's really good at 845 00:26:05.070 --> 00:26:05.969 dresses. 846 00:26:05.970 --> 00:26:07.799 Whereas I think Polanski is, in some 847 00:26:07.800 --> 00:26:09.359 ways, the most chilling of the 848 00:26:09.360 --> 00:26:11.249 three, and his aesthetics 849 00:26:11.250 --> 00:26:12.809 is very similar to Polanski. 850 00:26:12.810 --> 00:26:14.099 It's a slow chill. 851 00:26:14.100 --> 00:26:16.019 You kind of see a beautiful image, 852 00:26:16.020 --> 00:26:17.309 and you're not quite sure what's 853 00:26:17.310 --> 00:26:19.349 going on, and before you know it, 854 00:26:19.350 --> 00:26:21.539 the kind of sinking eeriness 855 00:26:21.540 --> 00:26:23.909 of the painting has somehow set in. 856 00:26:23.910 --> 00:26:25.739 And these are different 857 00:26:25.740 --> 00:26:26.939 stylistic approaches. 858 00:26:26.940 --> 00:26:28.919 These are different spectral 859 00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:29.879 responses. 860 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:31.859 And each of these artists has a way 861 00:26:31.860 --> 00:26:33.749 of crafting their image in 862 00:26:33.750 --> 00:26:35.939 their manner that speaks 863 00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:38.339 to the beholder in a different way. 864 00:26:38.340 --> 00:26:40.139 And that's very similar to the types 865 00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:42.359 of filmmakers we have today. 866 00:26:42.360 --> 00:26:43.919 Yeah, it seems like if you were 867 00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:46.649 trying-- not that this is 868 00:26:46.650 --> 00:26:47.639 exactly why you're doing it. 869 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:48.869 But if you were trying to write 870 00:26:48.870 --> 00:26:50.819 about Renaissance painters 871 00:26:50.820 --> 00:26:52.559 in a way that was accessible, then 872 00:26:52.560 --> 00:26:53.789 it would be hard to imagine a better 873 00:26:53.790 --> 00:26:55.199 way to do it than by taking like 874 00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:56.639 directors like that and applying 875 00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:57.059 them. 876 00:26:57.060 --> 00:26:58.439 Yes, because ultimately, it is about 877 00:26:58.440 --> 00:26:59.969 storytelling, even when it's the 878 00:26:59.970 --> 00:27:01.979 most esoteric 879 00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:03.449 Christian narrative. 880 00:27:03.450 --> 00:27:05.849 A lot of my students, 881 00:27:05.850 --> 00:27:07.529 my young students, sometimes say, 882 00:27:07.530 --> 00:27:08.819 "Oh, I just can't really get into 883 00:27:08.820 --> 00:27:10.769 this art. There's so much religion." 884 00:27:10.770 --> 00:27:12.059 I guess, but religion had some of 885 00:27:12.060 --> 00:27:14.189 the best stories, and 886 00:27:14.190 --> 00:27:15.929 that is why these paintings are 887 00:27:15.930 --> 00:27:16.889 still compelling. 888 00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:18.029 And same with the mythological 889 00:27:18.030 --> 00:27:19.739 tales. You don't have to have read 890 00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:21.749 Ovid's Metamorphoses to be 891 00:27:21.750 --> 00:27:22.859 frightened or 892 00:27:23.910 --> 00:27:25.799 shocked by a story about 893 00:27:25.800 --> 00:27:27.869 a woman who turns into a tree, 894 00:27:27.870 --> 00:27:29.585 or a man who turns into a flower, 895 00:27:29.586 --> 00:27:31.499 or, in the case of 896 00:27:31.500 --> 00:27:33.509 Diana and Actaeon, a man whose 897 00:27:33.510 --> 00:27:35.609 hubris leads him to be 898 00:27:35.610 --> 00:27:37.919 metamorphosed into a 899 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:39.869 deer and then torn apart by his own 900 00:27:39.870 --> 00:27:40.769 hunting dogs. 901 00:27:40.770 --> 00:27:41.770 That's a great story now 902 00:27:42.630 --> 00:27:43.739 as then. 903 00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:44.740 Right. 904 00:27:45.090 --> 00:27:46.409 I mean, mentioning the kinds of 905 00:27:46.410 --> 00:27:47.374 these stories and that kind of 906 00:27:47.375 --> 00:27:49.229 brutality and violence that are 907 00:27:49.230 --> 00:27:50.759 in a lot of them reminds me of 908 00:27:50.760 --> 00:27:51.899 another question I wanted to ask 909 00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:54.059 you, which comes 910 00:27:54.060 --> 00:27:55.060 from a--you 911 00:27:56.910 --> 00:27:58.109 have an introduction to an issue of 912 00:27:58.110 --> 00:27:59.789 a journal on early modern horror. 913 00:27:59.790 --> 00:28:01.859 And in that 914 00:28:02.910 --> 00:28:05.039 introduction, you write about 915 00:28:05.040 --> 00:28:06.509 you enjoy horror because it helps us 916 00:28:06.510 --> 00:28:08.369 move beyond the moralizing discourse 917 00:28:08.370 --> 00:28:10.079 of beauty and the edifying context 918 00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:11.549 of humanistic learning. 919 00:28:11.550 --> 00:28:12.449 I wonder if you could just say a 920 00:28:12.450 --> 00:28:13.559 little bit about why it's important 921 00:28:13.560 --> 00:28:14.560 to do that. 922 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:17.053 I think it's important to allow 923 00:28:17.054 --> 00:28:19.259 yourself to be moved by artworks, 924 00:28:19.260 --> 00:28:20.399 and this is something that 925 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:22.469 aesthetics has often pushed 926 00:28:22.470 --> 00:28:23.639 aside. 927 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:25.649 The idea of empathy, the idea 928 00:28:25.650 --> 00:28:27.839 of effect, the idea that 929 00:28:27.840 --> 00:28:30.179 you might be tricks emotionally 930 00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:31.229 by a work of art. 931 00:28:31.230 --> 00:28:33.539 I mean, this is why Plato banished 932 00:28:33.540 --> 00:28:35.909 artists from 933 00:28:35.910 --> 00:28:37.709 his republic. 934 00:28:37.710 --> 00:28:39.899 But to a certain extent, one needs 935 00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:41.789 to feel safe to 936 00:28:41.790 --> 00:28:43.769 feel in front of an 937 00:28:43.770 --> 00:28:45.989 artwork because that enables 938 00:28:45.990 --> 00:28:47.939 us to then feel safe to feel 939 00:28:47.940 --> 00:28:49.679 in life as well. There's nothing 940 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:51.269 better than a good cry in a movie 941 00:28:51.270 --> 00:28:52.270 theater. 942 00:28:53.190 --> 00:28:55.109 And when you leave, you feel 943 00:28:55.110 --> 00:28:56.249 transformed. 944 00:28:56.250 --> 00:28:57.869 You know it was just a fiction, and 945 00:28:57.870 --> 00:28:59.549 you can get back to your life. 946 00:28:59.550 --> 00:29:01.619 But there's something very 947 00:29:01.620 --> 00:29:03.659 not necessarily cathartic because 948 00:29:03.660 --> 00:29:05.429 catharsis often enables you to let 949 00:29:05.430 --> 00:29:07.259 go of things, and then it's gone. 950 00:29:07.260 --> 00:29:08.879 Whereas with artworks, with really 951 00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.739 good artworks, they stay with you, 952 00:29:10.740 --> 00:29:12.389 and they haunt you afterwards. 953 00:29:12.390 --> 00:29:14.579 And perhaps that's why I'm 954 00:29:14.580 --> 00:29:16.109 interested in horror films. 955 00:29:17.310 --> 00:29:19.259 I'm not a fan of horror films by 956 00:29:19.260 --> 00:29:21.449 any means, but as an art historian, 957 00:29:21.450 --> 00:29:23.399 I'm so interested in the way they 958 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:25.319 latch on to you and they 959 00:29:25.320 --> 00:29:26.669 stay with you. 960 00:29:26.670 --> 00:29:27.930 And for 961 00:29:29.010 --> 00:29:31.229 spectators in the 16th 962 00:29:31.230 --> 00:29:33.389 century and even in antiquity, 963 00:29:33.390 --> 00:29:35.549 a lot of these types of stories 964 00:29:35.550 --> 00:29:37.499 to do with the gods or 965 00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:39.569 with history 966 00:29:39.570 --> 00:29:40.570 were about 967 00:29:41.460 --> 00:29:43.469 inspiring, 968 00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:45.324 instilling a sense of humanity, kind 969 00:29:47.430 --> 00:29:49.330 of generating a 970 00:29:51.030 --> 00:29:53.069 feeling of community 971 00:29:53.070 --> 00:29:55.169 that you are part 972 00:29:55.170 --> 00:29:57.209 of a larger spectatorship, 973 00:29:57.210 --> 00:29:59.519 that you are part of an audience. 974 00:29:59.520 --> 00:30:00.900 And that's important. 975 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:04.379 With the new forms 976 00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:06.449 of entertainment 977 00:30:06.450 --> 00:30:08.489 distribution such as Netflix, 978 00:30:08.490 --> 00:30:10.529 or even before with 979 00:30:10.530 --> 00:30:11.699 DVD rentals. 980 00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:13.079 If anyone still remembers that. 981 00:30:13.080 --> 00:30:14.080 I mean, Blockbuster. 982 00:30:15.150 --> 00:30:17.249 One of the things that I always 983 00:30:17.250 --> 00:30:18.250 found very-- 984 00:30:19.110 --> 00:30:21.029 I suppose one of the things we lost 985 00:30:21.030 --> 00:30:22.859 in that shift was the sense 986 00:30:22.860 --> 00:30:24.749 of going to the movies, of being 987 00:30:24.750 --> 00:30:26.789 in a darkened room with 988 00:30:26.790 --> 00:30:28.829 an audience of people from 989 00:30:28.830 --> 00:30:30.929 all different backgrounds, 990 00:30:30.930 --> 00:30:32.279 who, in the light of day, you might 991 00:30:32.280 --> 00:30:34.169 not share the same opinions with. 992 00:30:34.170 --> 00:30:36.149 You might find them offensive 993 00:30:36.150 --> 00:30:37.859 people. You might find them very 994 00:30:37.860 --> 00:30:39.119 attractive people as well. 995 00:30:39.120 --> 00:30:40.529 But nevertheless, in that one moment 996 00:30:40.530 --> 00:30:41.939 in the darkness of the cinema, you 997 00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:43.889 become a collective whole, 998 00:30:43.890 --> 00:30:46.169 an audience that experiences 999 00:30:46.170 --> 00:30:48.149 the movie together. 1000 00:30:48.150 --> 00:30:49.529 And that's something really kind of 1001 00:30:49.530 --> 00:30:51.689 wonderful. To be scared 1002 00:30:51.690 --> 00:30:53.639 out of your minds with a bunch 1003 00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:56.309 of other people is something very 1004 00:30:56.310 --> 00:30:57.899 uplifting in some sort of strange 1005 00:30:57.900 --> 00:30:59.279 way because there is a sense of 1006 00:30:59.280 --> 00:31:01.229 being together with these 1007 00:31:01.230 --> 00:31:02.230 other 1008 00:31:03.090 --> 00:31:04.090 spectators. 1009 00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:07.019 And I think these 1010 00:31:07.020 --> 00:31:08.459 are a collective forms of 1011 00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:09.569 experiencing art. 1012 00:31:09.570 --> 00:31:11.399 And the museum remains one of those 1013 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:13.140 places where you can still do that. 1014 00:31:14.340 --> 00:31:16.259 I know people often say, "You 1015 00:31:16.260 --> 00:31:17.759 know what good is art history 1016 00:31:17.760 --> 00:31:18.539 anyway? 1017 00:31:18.540 --> 00:31:20.429 Why would you study art history?" 1018 00:31:20.430 --> 00:31:22.439 But every time you go into a museum, 1019 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:23.849 and certainly, in New York, where 1020 00:31:23.850 --> 00:31:25.679 I'm teaching now, every time 1021 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:26.909 you step into the Metropolitan 1022 00:31:26.910 --> 00:31:28.919 Museum, it's crammed and so full 1023 00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:30.869 of people trying to make 1024 00:31:30.870 --> 00:31:32.969 sense of things that have 1025 00:31:32.970 --> 00:31:36.029 come from centuries and 1026 00:31:36.030 --> 00:31:38.159 cultures and geographies so far 1027 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:39.569 from themselves. 1028 00:31:39.570 --> 00:31:41.159 And there is something hopeful about 1029 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:43.049 that because museums still 1030 00:31:43.050 --> 00:31:45.449 enable people to come together 1031 00:31:45.450 --> 00:31:47.159 and to experience something beyond 1032 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.259 themselves in a way that might 1033 00:31:49.260 --> 00:31:51.209 not give them an answer if that is 1034 00:31:51.210 --> 00:31:52.199 what they're looking for. 1035 00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:54.299 It's there to 1036 00:31:54.300 --> 00:31:56.009 shift their ways of thinking to 1037 00:31:56.010 --> 00:31:58.049 perhaps temporarily let them 1038 00:31:58.050 --> 00:31:59.819 step out of their own anxieties 1039 00:31:59.820 --> 00:32:01.679 about their everyday lives and to 1040 00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:02.939 think about something that has 1041 00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:05.399 somehow survived centuries, 1042 00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:07.439 wars, famines, floods 1043 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:09.389 and has ended up in the 1044 00:32:09.390 --> 00:32:11.369 Frick collection, in the Carnegie 1045 00:32:11.370 --> 00:32:13.499 collection, in all of these 1046 00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:15.149 collections that were assembled by 1047 00:32:15.150 --> 00:32:17.369 the early pioneers 1048 00:32:17.370 --> 00:32:18.720 of American capitalism, 1049 00:32:20.130 --> 00:32:21.509 who really believed in the 1050 00:32:21.510 --> 00:32:23.789 importance of culture and 1051 00:32:23.790 --> 00:32:25.439 the place of culture in narrating 1052 00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:26.879 the American story as well. 1053 00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:27.880 Yeah, 1054 00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:30.689 well, let me just-- maybe just kind 1055 00:32:30.690 --> 00:32:32.504 of one more question for you. 1056 00:32:32.505 --> 00:32:34.379 We were talking earlier about kind 1057 00:32:34.380 --> 00:32:36.569 of the engagement that artists 1058 00:32:36.570 --> 00:32:38.404 have when they're painting portraits 1059 00:32:38.405 --> 00:32:40.799 as a kind of interaction between 1060 00:32:40.800 --> 00:32:41.800 an artist and 1061 00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:44.849 somebody that artist is painting. 1062 00:32:44.850 --> 00:32:46.679 And I guess I wanted to 1063 00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:48.179 end by asking you a question about 1064 00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:50.399 how you see your engagement 1065 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:51.569 with the things you write about 1066 00:32:51.570 --> 00:32:52.619 through your writing. 1067 00:32:52.620 --> 00:32:53.609 Because one of the things I mentioned 1068 00:32:53.610 --> 00:32:54.839 earlier that it was really-- I found 1069 00:32:54.840 --> 00:32:56.849 your work really engaging to read. 1070 00:32:56.850 --> 00:32:58.709 And I think it's also really 1071 00:32:58.710 --> 00:32:59.909 energetic, as I would say. 1072 00:32:59.910 --> 00:33:01.319 The intro to the new book that 1073 00:33:01.320 --> 00:33:02.369 you've got almost reads like a 1074 00:33:02.370 --> 00:33:04.289 detective novel, and that 1075 00:33:04.290 --> 00:33:06.449 there are certain sections where 1076 00:33:06.450 --> 00:33:08.099 it seems to me like you try to kind 1077 00:33:08.100 --> 00:33:10.259 of like invoke the process 1078 00:33:10.260 --> 00:33:11.039 of creation. 1079 00:33:11.040 --> 00:33:12.299 You're talking about kind of pencil 1080 00:33:12.300 --> 00:33:13.829 or chalk skipping across a blank 1081 00:33:13.830 --> 00:33:16.139 page. This is important to kind of 1082 00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:17.819 recall these moments for you when 1083 00:33:17.820 --> 00:33:20.099 you write about the paintings and 1084 00:33:20.100 --> 00:33:21.449 art that you're writing about. 1085 00:33:21.450 --> 00:33:22.649 So I thought we could just end by 1086 00:33:22.650 --> 00:33:24.359 asking-- I'd ask you about that. 1087 00:33:24.360 --> 00:33:26.189 Like, what do you want when you 1088 00:33:26.190 --> 00:33:27.599 write? What kind of relationship do 1089 00:33:27.600 --> 00:33:29.069 you want to create to the work that 1090 00:33:29.070 --> 00:33:30.070 you're writing about? 1091 00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:32.729 Wow. Okay. 1092 00:33:32.730 --> 00:33:34.649 I think in academic 1093 00:33:34.650 --> 00:33:36.299 scholarship, there's always an 1094 00:33:36.300 --> 00:33:38.489 anxiety of 1095 00:33:38.490 --> 00:33:41.129 misstepping or making a mistake. 1096 00:33:41.130 --> 00:33:42.130 There's 1097 00:33:42.990 --> 00:33:44.219 a lot of pressure, especially on 1098 00:33:44.220 --> 00:33:46.499 young scholars, to be right 1099 00:33:46.500 --> 00:33:47.609 and to be best. 1100 00:33:47.610 --> 00:33:49.349 And I think those are certainly 1101 00:33:49.350 --> 00:33:50.909 goals one should strive towards. 1102 00:33:50.910 --> 00:33:52.439 Nobody wants to be wrong or be 1103 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:54.316 worst, but one 1104 00:33:54.317 --> 00:33:55.739 should also be open. 1105 00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:57.719 And I think with a lot of my own 1106 00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:00.119 scholarship, I 1107 00:34:00.120 --> 00:34:01.829 know that I will make mistakes, and 1108 00:34:01.830 --> 00:34:03.449 I'm ready for that because somebody 1109 00:34:03.450 --> 00:34:05.579 who is more capable will come and 1110 00:34:05.580 --> 00:34:06.719 correct those mistakes. 1111 00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:08.279 And that is part of what scholarship 1112 00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:09.059 should be. 1113 00:34:09.060 --> 00:34:10.709 You should never have the last word 1114 00:34:10.710 --> 00:34:13.619 in any given subject because, 1115 00:34:13.620 --> 00:34:15.178 again, that's like a commercial. 1116 00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:16.619 You either go out and you buy it, or 1117 00:34:16.620 --> 00:34:17.579 you don't buy it. 1118 00:34:17.580 --> 00:34:19.678 But if you throw something 1119 00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:21.689 out there, a kind of a 1120 00:34:21.690 --> 00:34:23.129 willingness to be vulnerable and 1121 00:34:23.130 --> 00:34:25.049 open and humble 1122 00:34:25.050 --> 00:34:26.999 as well, I think that 1123 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:28.948 is, in a sense, the best way of 1124 00:34:28.949 --> 00:34:29.949 proceeding 1125 00:34:31.739 --> 00:34:33.509 with my own scholarship. 1126 00:34:33.510 --> 00:34:34.979 Again, I'm not saying everyone has 1127 00:34:34.980 --> 00:34:37.049 to necessarily follow my 1128 00:34:37.050 --> 00:34:38.968 path, but certainly, in 1129 00:34:38.969 --> 00:34:41.069 my own work, I think that being 1130 00:34:41.070 --> 00:34:42.749 open and being humble and, I guess, 1131 00:34:42.750 --> 00:34:44.669 being human is, in a sense, 1132 00:34:44.670 --> 00:34:45.928 the most important part of 1133 00:34:45.929 --> 00:34:48.178 scholarship. It's an ongoing 1134 00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:48.988 conversation. 1135 00:34:48.989 --> 00:34:50.488 You will never have the last word, 1136 00:34:50.489 --> 00:34:51.749 and people will always come 1137 00:34:51.750 --> 00:34:52.888 afterward. 1138 00:34:52.889 --> 00:34:56.189 And the more open you are to 1139 00:34:56.190 --> 00:34:58.139 those future voices, the 1140 00:34:58.140 --> 00:34:59.140 more productive that 1141 00:35:00.130 --> 00:35:01.749 conversation will be with 1142 00:35:01.750 --> 00:35:03.279 generations to come. 1143 00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:05.139 So I think being open 1144 00:35:05.140 --> 00:35:07.719 is perhaps the most important thing 1145 00:35:07.720 --> 00:35:09.939 in academia. It's difficult 1146 00:35:09.940 --> 00:35:11.979 because one doesn't necessarily 1147 00:35:11.980 --> 00:35:13.719 readily enable oneself to be 1148 00:35:13.720 --> 00:35:14.799 vulnerable. 1149 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:16.839 But there's always someone smarter 1150 00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:17.829 out there than you. 1151 00:35:17.830 --> 00:35:19.569 That's just inevitable. 1152 00:35:19.570 --> 00:35:21.399 And hopefully, that 1153 00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:23.199 smarter person will come and look 1154 00:35:23.200 --> 00:35:24.609 upon your work with a bit of 1155 00:35:24.610 --> 00:35:26.589 intellectual generosity to say, 1156 00:35:26.590 --> 00:35:27.879 "Oh, you made a mistake here. 1157 00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:29.589 And actually, I can help you make it 1158 00:35:29.590 --> 00:35:31.449 better by saying this." And that is 1159 00:35:31.450 --> 00:35:33.789 what one really wants from 1160 00:35:33.790 --> 00:35:35.289 an intellectual conversation. 1161 00:35:35.290 --> 00:35:36.849 Not to be shouted down and say, "Oh, 1162 00:35:36.850 --> 00:35:38.199 you are wrong," or, "Oh my God, 1163 00:35:38.200 --> 00:35:39.009 you're absolutely right. 1164 00:35:39.010 --> 00:35:40.359 This is the most right thing that 1165 00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:42.159 anyone has ever said," because then 1166 00:35:42.160 --> 00:35:43.659 that ends the conversation and 1167 00:35:43.660 --> 00:35:44.799 there's nothing more to learn. 1168 00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:46.749 Yeah, I mean, I will also just say, 1169 00:35:46.750 --> 00:35:48.129 and I hope this is consistent with 1170 00:35:48.130 --> 00:35:49.689 your way of thinking about your 1171 00:35:49.690 --> 00:35:50.889 writing, too, is that it kind of 1172 00:35:50.890 --> 00:35:52.399 seems fun. 1173 00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:54.039 Your writing seems fun, I mean. 1174 00:35:54.040 --> 00:35:55.040 Why be anything-- if 1175 00:35:57.010 --> 00:35:59.559 you are going to be an academic, 1176 00:35:59.560 --> 00:36:00.560 there's a lot of-- teaching 1177 00:36:01.540 --> 00:36:02.919 is the fun thing you do between 1178 00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:04.839 meetings. Meetings are necessary to 1179 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:07.059 keep the university running, 1180 00:36:07.060 --> 00:36:08.949 but somewhere in between, there has 1181 00:36:08.950 --> 00:36:11.169 to be fun. And I think once 1182 00:36:11.170 --> 00:36:13.299 students understand 1183 00:36:13.300 --> 00:36:15.159 that learning is fun, 1184 00:36:15.160 --> 00:36:16.629 then they really fly, and they take 1185 00:36:16.630 --> 00:36:18.189 off with it. And you don't have to 1186 00:36:18.190 --> 00:36:19.959 teach them that much more because, 1187 00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:21.609 ultimately, as teachers, and I know 1188 00:36:21.610 --> 00:36:23.589 you know this very well, teaching is 1189 00:36:23.590 --> 00:36:25.629 to enable young people to teach 1190 00:36:25.630 --> 00:36:27.699 themselves and understand why 1191 00:36:27.700 --> 00:36:29.679 learning is something they will be 1192 00:36:29.680 --> 00:36:31.382 doing for a lifetime beyond the 1193 00:36:32.770 --> 00:36:34.269 one or three hours that you might 1194 00:36:34.270 --> 00:36:35.710 have with them per week. 1195 00:36:37.209 --> 00:36:38.859 Maria Loh, the new book is coming 1196 00:36:38.860 --> 00:36:39.699 out any week. 1197 00:36:39.700 --> 00:36:41.079 It's called Titian's Touch: Art, 1198 00:36:41.080 --> 00:36:42.519 Magic, and Philosophy. 1199 00:36:42.520 --> 00:36:43.929 And thank you so much for coming out 1200 00:36:43.930 --> 00:36:44.589 and being human. 1201 00:36:44.590 --> 00:36:46.359 Thank you very much. 1202 00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:47.709 That's it for this edition of Being 1203 00:36:47.710 --> 00:36:49.659 Human. This episode was produced by 1204 00:36:49.660 --> 00:36:51.789 new Pitt alum Noah Livingston, 1205 00:36:51.790 --> 00:36:53.079 Humanities Media Fellow at the 1206 00:36:53.080 --> 00:36:54.549 University of Pittsburgh. 1207 00:36:54.550 --> 00:36:56.049 Stay tuned next time when my guest 1208 00:36:56.050 --> 00:36:57.729 will be Caspar Pearson, professor of 1209 00:36:57.730 --> 00:36:59.169 Art and Architectural History at the 1210 00:36:59.170 --> 00:37:00.579 University of Essex. 1211 00:37:00.580 --> 00:37:01.580 Thanks for listening.
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