WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.460 --> 00:00:03.689 Hello and welcome to the latest 2 00:00:03.690 --> 00:00:05.009 installment of Being Human from the 3 00:00:05.010 --> 00:00:06.179 University of Pittsburgh. 4 00:00:06.180 --> 00:00:07.709 This series is devoted to exploring 5 00:00:07.710 --> 00:00:09.239 the humanities, their connections to 6 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:10.649 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:10.650 --> 00:00:11.519 in the public world. 8 00:00:11.520 --> 00:00:13.199 I'm Dan Kubis, associate director of 9 00:00:13.200 --> 00:00:14.729 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:14.730 --> 00:00:16.499 My guest today is Steve Lyons, 11 00:00:16.500 --> 00:00:17.879 director of research for the Natural 12 00:00:17.880 --> 00:00:18.779 History Museum. 13 00:00:18.780 --> 00:00:19.919 The Natural History Museum was 14 00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:22.199 created in 2014 as a project 15 00:00:22.200 --> 00:00:23.969 of Not An Alternative, an activist 16 00:00:23.970 --> 00:00:25.499 art collective originally based in 17 00:00:25.500 --> 00:00:26.639 New York. 18 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:27.567 Since its founding in the early 19 00:00:27.568 --> 00:00:29.459 2000s, Not An Alternative has 20 00:00:29.460 --> 00:00:30.929 worked to create radical social 21 00:00:30.930 --> 00:00:32.368 actions and intervene in political 22 00:00:32.369 --> 00:00:34.049 landscapes through a focus on art 23 00:00:34.050 --> 00:00:35.429 and design. 24 00:00:35.430 --> 00:00:36.629 A good example of their work is 25 00:00:36.630 --> 00:00:37.979 their collaboration with Picture the 26 00:00:37.980 --> 00:00:39.719 Homeless, a homeless-founded group 27 00:00:39.720 --> 00:00:41.099 that works to raise awareness about 28 00:00:41.100 --> 00:00:42.749 homelessness in New York City. 29 00:00:42.750 --> 00:00:43.919 The collective was also heavily 30 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:45.179 involved in actions surrounding 31 00:00:45.180 --> 00:00:46.679 Occupy Wall Street, where they 32 00:00:46.680 --> 00:00:48.209 worked towards developing visual and 33 00:00:48.210 --> 00:00:50.039 symbolic links between Occupy and 34 00:00:50.040 --> 00:00:51.389 the movements of the squares and 35 00:00:51.390 --> 00:00:52.769 spreading across the world in the 36 00:00:52.770 --> 00:00:54.689 aftermath of the 2008 economic 37 00:00:54.690 --> 00:00:56.279 crisis. With the Natural History 38 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:57.989 Museum, Not An Alternative continues 39 00:00:57.990 --> 00:00:59.579 to push for radical political change 40 00:00:59.580 --> 00:01:00.959 while working within science and 41 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:02.789 natural history museums. 42 00:01:02.790 --> 00:01:04.139 One of the Natural History Museum's 43 00:01:04.140 --> 00:01:05.669 first and most visible actions 44 00:01:05.670 --> 00:01:07.139 involved a successful campaign to 45 00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:08.879 get oil financier David Koch to 46 00:01:08.880 --> 00:01:10.049 resign from the board of the 47 00:01:10.050 --> 00:01:12.179 American Museum of Natural History. 48 00:01:12.180 --> 00:01:14.369 A more recent example was their 2016 49 00:01:14.370 --> 00:01:16.379 project called Mining the Houston 50 00:01:16.380 --> 00:01:18.149 Museum of Natural Science, which 51 00:01:18.150 --> 00:01:19.679 reworked several of the museum's 52 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:21.089 exhibits to call attention to its 53 00:01:21.090 --> 00:01:22.529 complicities with the fossil fuel 54 00:01:22.530 --> 00:01:23.969 industry and the environmental 55 00:01:23.970 --> 00:01:25.439 injustices perpetuated in its 56 00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:26.519 interest. This sort of 57 00:01:26.520 --> 00:01:28.199 inside-and-against strategy 58 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:29.699 characterizes much of the Natural 59 00:01:29.700 --> 00:01:31.619 History Museum's projects, and 60 00:01:31.620 --> 00:01:33.179 I began by asking Steve to talk 61 00:01:33.180 --> 00:01:34.619 about the history of the museum and 62 00:01:34.620 --> 00:01:35.939 how that strategy fits into their 63 00:01:35.940 --> 00:01:37.049 work more broadly. 64 00:01:37.050 --> 00:01:38.939 The Natural History Museum was very 65 00:01:38.940 --> 00:01:41.639 much started as 66 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:43.949 a design problem or as a 67 00:01:43.950 --> 00:01:45.809 solution to a design problem. 68 00:01:45.810 --> 00:01:46.979 And so when we founded the Natural 69 00:01:46.980 --> 00:01:47.939 History Museum, we didn't know 70 00:01:47.940 --> 00:01:48.869 anything about museums. 71 00:01:48.870 --> 00:01:50.549 We were not involved in the museum 72 00:01:50.550 --> 00:01:51.550 sector. 73 00:01:52.800 --> 00:01:54.269 What we wanted to do is we wanted to 74 00:01:54.270 --> 00:01:56.369 devise a kind of Trojan horse, 75 00:01:56.370 --> 00:01:59.279 something that could mimic 76 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:01.619 the generic Natural History Museum, 77 00:02:01.620 --> 00:02:03.239 in order to enter into the museum 78 00:02:03.240 --> 00:02:05.069 sector and to transform it 79 00:02:05.070 --> 00:02:06.070 from within. 80 00:02:07.050 --> 00:02:10.079 Now that, 81 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:11.440 like any Trojan horse, is 82 00:02:12.570 --> 00:02:14.489 a packaging project. 83 00:02:14.490 --> 00:02:16.259 Right. So you can get inside. 84 00:02:16.260 --> 00:02:18.099 Exactly. So we began to 85 00:02:18.100 --> 00:02:19.739 see what are the elements of a 86 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:20.729 natural history museum, of the 87 00:02:20.730 --> 00:02:22.409 generic natural history museum, that 88 00:02:22.410 --> 00:02:23.410 we need 89 00:02:25.110 --> 00:02:26.489 that can make us convincing as a 90 00:02:26.490 --> 00:02:28.349 museum. Because we felt that in 91 00:02:28.350 --> 00:02:29.579 order to effect change within the 92 00:02:29.580 --> 00:02:32.579 museum sector, the best strategy 93 00:02:32.580 --> 00:02:33.580 would be to 94 00:02:34.410 --> 00:02:36.239 engage the museum sector 95 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:38.009 as a peer. 96 00:02:38.010 --> 00:02:39.479 This is a different strategy than a 97 00:02:39.480 --> 00:02:40.737 typical sort of beating-at-the-door 98 00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:44.129 activist strategy, which 99 00:02:44.130 --> 00:02:45.389 is also useful and effective in 100 00:02:45.390 --> 00:02:46.979 various ways, but not the experiment 101 00:02:46.980 --> 00:02:48.299 that we want it to do. 102 00:02:48.300 --> 00:02:50.189 And so some of the first things 103 00:02:50.190 --> 00:02:51.599 that we did were 104 00:02:52.650 --> 00:02:53.650 build 105 00:02:54.750 --> 00:02:57.269 a website. So we built a website. 106 00:02:57.270 --> 00:02:58.079 We got the domain 107 00:02:58.080 --> 00:02:59.080 thenaturalhistorymuseum.org. 108 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:01.319 Who knows how that was still 109 00:03:01.320 --> 00:03:02.320 available? It was. 110 00:03:03.630 --> 00:03:05.729 We established an advisory board 111 00:03:05.730 --> 00:03:08.069 of significant members of 112 00:03:08.070 --> 00:03:09.929 the science community, 113 00:03:09.930 --> 00:03:11.999 significant thinkers 114 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:14.009 like Naomi Klein, for example, major 115 00:03:14.010 --> 00:03:15.299 artists working on environmental 116 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:17.129 ecological themes like Mark Dion in 117 00:03:17.130 --> 00:03:18.569 order to establish a certain 118 00:03:18.570 --> 00:03:19.889 legitimacy or at least a sheen of 119 00:03:19.890 --> 00:03:21.539 legitimacy. We also engage with 120 00:03:21.540 --> 00:03:23.819 these people to think about how 121 00:03:23.820 --> 00:03:25.799 we should kind of orient 122 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:27.389 this project. So they were an actual 123 00:03:27.390 --> 00:03:28.769 advisory board, and our advisory 124 00:03:28.770 --> 00:03:30.359 board has grown and is significant 125 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:33.119 to our work. But first and foremost, 126 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:35.099 it was an aspect of making 127 00:03:35.100 --> 00:03:36.300 the museum believable. 128 00:03:37.350 --> 00:03:39.179 We faked up a bunch of 129 00:03:39.180 --> 00:03:41.309 photographs of workshops, 130 00:03:41.310 --> 00:03:43.169 of expeditions, all the things 131 00:03:43.170 --> 00:03:44.399 that we could imagine our museum 132 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:45.539 doing at some point. 133 00:03:45.540 --> 00:03:46.540 But we didn't yet have 134 00:03:47.820 --> 00:03:50.249 the funding or the opportunities 135 00:03:50.250 --> 00:03:51.250 to make these things 136 00:03:52.170 --> 00:03:53.309 present. 137 00:03:53.310 --> 00:03:55.229 And so very much, it was a 138 00:03:55.230 --> 00:03:56.829 paper tiger organization. 139 00:03:56.830 --> 00:03:58.439 It was fake. 140 00:03:58.440 --> 00:04:00.389 So the model fake it till 141 00:04:00.390 --> 00:04:02.189 you make it was very much present in 142 00:04:02.190 --> 00:04:02.729 our work. 143 00:04:02.730 --> 00:04:04.739 One of the-- I guess this is another 144 00:04:04.740 --> 00:04:06.599 kind of question about the origins 145 00:04:06.600 --> 00:04:07.830 of the Natural History Museum 146 00:04:10.020 --> 00:04:11.849 as a project of 147 00:04:11.850 --> 00:04:12.749 Not An Alternative. 148 00:04:12.750 --> 00:04:14.369 And that, as I was reading about 149 00:04:14.370 --> 00:04:16.859 the-- this is another interview 150 00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:18.809 with the Natural History Museum, 151 00:04:18.810 --> 00:04:21.119 it kind of seemed like the project 152 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.219 grew out of your 153 00:04:23.220 --> 00:04:24.899 campaign to get David Koch kicked 154 00:04:24.900 --> 00:04:26.849 off the board of the American Museum 155 00:04:26.850 --> 00:04:28.649 of Natural History rather than being 156 00:04:28.650 --> 00:04:30.509 something where it was like you and 157 00:04:30.510 --> 00:04:32.879 your coworkers 158 00:04:32.880 --> 00:04:33.929 in Not An Alternative. 159 00:04:33.930 --> 00:04:35.579 You didn't set out to kind of target 160 00:04:35.580 --> 00:04:36.959 natural history museums as much as 161 00:04:36.960 --> 00:04:38.489 you did kind of like decide that 162 00:04:38.490 --> 00:04:39.749 that was a way after the Koch 163 00:04:39.750 --> 00:04:40.649 campaign. But I don't know. 164 00:04:40.650 --> 00:04:41.998 I mean, you can kind of correct me 165 00:04:41.999 --> 00:04:43.679 where I'm going wrong there about 166 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:44.159 that. 167 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:45.989 Sure. So the first 168 00:04:45.990 --> 00:04:47.849 thing to be very clear on is the 169 00:04:47.850 --> 00:04:49.079 Natural History Museum was not 170 00:04:49.080 --> 00:04:51.239 established as a kind of alternative 171 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:52.499 organization. 172 00:04:52.500 --> 00:04:53.759 We weren't trying to be 173 00:04:55.170 --> 00:04:57.479 another sort of 174 00:04:57.480 --> 00:04:59.429 natural history museum. 175 00:04:59.430 --> 00:05:01.141 The idea was not to kind of increase 176 00:05:01.142 --> 00:05:03.739 the menu of options 177 00:05:03.740 --> 00:05:06.889 with which museums could choose 178 00:05:06.890 --> 00:05:07.970 or a public could choose. 179 00:05:09.170 --> 00:05:11.539 It was a targeted 180 00:05:11.540 --> 00:05:13.519 kind of political strategy and 181 00:05:13.520 --> 00:05:16.249 a creative activist strategy. 182 00:05:16.250 --> 00:05:18.169 Now, the way that it came to be is 183 00:05:18.170 --> 00:05:20.179 we were invited by an 184 00:05:20.180 --> 00:05:22.129 NGO based in New York who 185 00:05:22.130 --> 00:05:23.779 wanted us to work with them on a 186 00:05:23.780 --> 00:05:25.789 project that would ask 187 00:05:25.790 --> 00:05:27.649 David Koch to pay for 188 00:05:27.650 --> 00:05:29.479 the cleanup from 189 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:30.349 Hurricane Sandy. 190 00:05:30.350 --> 00:05:32.209 We weren't particularly 191 00:05:32.210 --> 00:05:33.259 interested in that angle. 192 00:05:33.260 --> 00:05:35.059 But in our research process, we 193 00:05:35.060 --> 00:05:36.799 discovered that David Koch was on 194 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:38.719 the board of trustees of the 195 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:40.039 American Museum of Natural History 196 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:41.959 and the Smithsonian National Museum 197 00:05:41.960 --> 00:05:43.219 of Natural History, which are two of 198 00:05:43.220 --> 00:05:45.019 the largest natural history museums 199 00:05:45.020 --> 00:05:46.459 in the United States. 200 00:05:46.460 --> 00:05:48.319 The blatant contradiction between 201 00:05:48.320 --> 00:05:51.049 sort of the ideal of a museum 202 00:05:51.050 --> 00:05:53.299 science institution and 203 00:05:53.300 --> 00:05:54.979 the interests of David Koch in the 204 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:56.929 way that he's used his financial 205 00:05:56.930 --> 00:05:59.029 capital to spread climate 206 00:05:59.030 --> 00:06:00.979 science. Disinformation was just 207 00:06:00.980 --> 00:06:02.089 really blatant. 208 00:06:02.090 --> 00:06:04.219 So we thought, 209 00:06:04.220 --> 00:06:06.019 "This is an opportunity. 210 00:06:06.020 --> 00:06:07.999 David Koch is like our 211 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:09.259 muse. 212 00:06:09.260 --> 00:06:11.119 We don't really care, at 213 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:13.189 this point, about getting 214 00:06:13.190 --> 00:06:15.109 David Koch off the board of trustees 215 00:06:15.110 --> 00:06:16.249 of the American Museum of Natural 216 00:06:16.250 --> 00:06:17.089 History." But it's sort of like a 217 00:06:17.090 --> 00:06:18.079 flashpoint. 218 00:06:18.080 --> 00:06:19.399 It shows people that there is a 219 00:06:19.400 --> 00:06:21.979 strong contradiction 220 00:06:21.980 --> 00:06:24.079 between the ideals and the practices 221 00:06:24.080 --> 00:06:26.029 of mainstream natural 222 00:06:26.030 --> 00:06:27.919 history museums, which can open 223 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:28.969 up a conversation. 224 00:06:28.970 --> 00:06:30.859 It can open up a lot of soul 225 00:06:30.860 --> 00:06:32.269 searching within the museum sector 226 00:06:32.270 --> 00:06:34.009 by putting it in to the spotlight, 227 00:06:34.010 --> 00:06:35.839 by building a pressure campaign 228 00:06:35.840 --> 00:06:36.949 that gets these institutions to 229 00:06:36.950 --> 00:06:38.479 start talking about their role. 230 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:40.489 And so it was 231 00:06:40.490 --> 00:06:42.799 started through the Koch 232 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:45.109 campaign, but we thought, 233 00:06:45.110 --> 00:06:46.369 "How are we going to do a Coke 234 00:06:46.370 --> 00:06:48.439 campaign?" Because 235 00:06:49.640 --> 00:06:51.499 museums are sort of a special 236 00:06:51.500 --> 00:06:52.489 case. 237 00:06:52.490 --> 00:06:54.379 They're not like fossil fuel 238 00:06:54.380 --> 00:06:55.669 companies. 239 00:06:55.670 --> 00:06:57.529 You can get popular support 240 00:06:57.530 --> 00:07:00.019 behind hating fossil fuel companies. 241 00:07:00.020 --> 00:07:01.039 You're not going to get the same 242 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.739 kind of public support by railing 243 00:07:03.740 --> 00:07:05.299 against museums. 244 00:07:05.300 --> 00:07:07.039 There's a popular desire for 245 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:08.059 museums. They're trusted 246 00:07:08.060 --> 00:07:09.199 institutions. They're family 247 00:07:09.200 --> 00:07:10.200 destinations. 248 00:07:11.150 --> 00:07:12.289 There's a reason why people go to 249 00:07:12.290 --> 00:07:14.089 them. There's a reason why public 250 00:07:14.090 --> 00:07:16.039 schools send their students 251 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:18.079 to them. And so we thought 252 00:07:18.080 --> 00:07:20.089 museums are actually one of those 253 00:07:20.090 --> 00:07:21.559 kind of public infrastructural 254 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:23.479 resources that are relatively 255 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:24.480 salvageable. 256 00:07:25.310 --> 00:07:27.109 Of course, they're compromised by a 257 00:07:27.110 --> 00:07:28.519 history of colonialism, the 258 00:07:28.520 --> 00:07:30.769 compromised by their embeddedness 259 00:07:30.770 --> 00:07:32.659 within sort of neoliberal 260 00:07:32.660 --> 00:07:33.439 capitalism. 261 00:07:33.440 --> 00:07:35.089 We know these things, and we're not 262 00:07:35.090 --> 00:07:36.019 letting them off the hook. 263 00:07:36.020 --> 00:07:37.849 But it leads to a 264 00:07:37.850 --> 00:07:38.719 different set of questions about 265 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:40.519 what would be an effective activist 266 00:07:40.520 --> 00:07:41.509 strategy. 267 00:07:41.510 --> 00:07:42.510 And so we thought, "Okay, 268 00:07:43.520 --> 00:07:45.349 maybe if we-- 269 00:07:45.350 --> 00:07:47.629 if this critique 270 00:07:47.630 --> 00:07:48.979 of the American Museum of Natural 271 00:07:48.980 --> 00:07:50.269 History or this critique of David 272 00:07:50.270 --> 00:07:51.949 Koch's relationship to the American 273 00:07:51.950 --> 00:07:53.809 Museum of Natural History came 274 00:07:53.810 --> 00:07:56.599 from a natural history museum 275 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:58.549 and was not against 276 00:07:58.550 --> 00:08:00.739 the museum, but against the 277 00:08:00.740 --> 00:08:02.599 infiltration of the 278 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:04.789 museum by corporate interests, 279 00:08:04.790 --> 00:08:05.809 that we could build popular 280 00:08:05.810 --> 00:08:06.679 support." In fact, that's what 281 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:07.680 happened. 282 00:08:08.380 --> 00:08:09.469 Yeah, the campaign worked. 283 00:08:09.470 --> 00:08:10.759 The campaign worked. 284 00:08:10.760 --> 00:08:13.099 So our strategy was 285 00:08:13.100 --> 00:08:14.100 to enlist 286 00:08:16.580 --> 00:08:17.539 major members of the science 287 00:08:17.540 --> 00:08:19.729 community to 288 00:08:19.730 --> 00:08:20.730 issue an open 289 00:08:21.890 --> 00:08:23.779 public letter asking museums to 290 00:08:23.780 --> 00:08:25.579 cut ties to fossil fuel interests. 291 00:08:25.580 --> 00:08:27.769 So it's really embedded in the whole 292 00:08:27.770 --> 00:08:28.770 divestment movement. 293 00:08:29.930 --> 00:08:31.699 But we wanted this to come from 294 00:08:31.700 --> 00:08:33.168 important, influential scientists 295 00:08:33.169 --> 00:08:34.639 because they have a lot more weight 296 00:08:34.640 --> 00:08:36.259 within the natural science and 297 00:08:36.260 --> 00:08:38.329 natural history museum sector 298 00:08:38.330 --> 00:08:40.158 than NGOs 299 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:42.139 and activists. We organized 300 00:08:42.140 --> 00:08:44.178 this open letter as well 301 00:08:44.179 --> 00:08:46.069 as a petition that was more targeted 302 00:08:46.070 --> 00:08:47.059 at the American Museum of Natural 303 00:08:47.060 --> 00:08:49.069 History and the Smithsonian 304 00:08:49.070 --> 00:08:50.929 to drop David Koch, in 305 00:08:50.930 --> 00:08:52.039 particular. 306 00:08:52.040 --> 00:08:54.139 And both of those 307 00:08:54.140 --> 00:08:55.879 circulated wildly. 308 00:08:55.880 --> 00:08:57.679 And it became a sort of viral thing 309 00:08:57.680 --> 00:09:00.079 in the media, which was really 310 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:01.969 useful because not only do we 311 00:09:01.970 --> 00:09:04.099 build a base of popular support, 312 00:09:04.100 --> 00:09:06.499 gaining 550,000 signatures 313 00:09:06.500 --> 00:09:08.719 for our Koch petition, 314 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.089 but it also put these conversations 315 00:09:11.090 --> 00:09:12.949 about museum ethics, about 316 00:09:12.950 --> 00:09:14.899 the relationship between museums and 317 00:09:14.900 --> 00:09:16.969 corporate interests on the map. 318 00:09:16.970 --> 00:09:19.879 So let me ask you about 319 00:09:19.880 --> 00:09:21.919 your current 320 00:09:21.920 --> 00:09:23.959 exhibition there. 321 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:26.059 It's on display in Gainesville 322 00:09:26.060 --> 00:09:27.409 at the Florida Museum of Natural 323 00:09:27.410 --> 00:09:29.029 History. It's called Whale People: 324 00:09:29.030 --> 00:09:30.889 Protectors of the Sea, 325 00:09:30.890 --> 00:09:32.029 and it will be there-- what are the 326 00:09:32.030 --> 00:09:32.809 dates again? 327 00:09:32.810 --> 00:09:33.709 Can you remember? 328 00:09:33.710 --> 00:09:34.449 Mm-mm. 329 00:09:34.450 --> 00:09:35.509 That's alright. 330 00:09:35.510 --> 00:09:36.469 It'll be there for the next few 331 00:09:36.470 --> 00:09:37.470 months. 332 00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:39.529 Can you talk a little bit about that 333 00:09:39.530 --> 00:09:41.119 exhibit just as a kind of concrete 334 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:42.949 example of how the 335 00:09:42.950 --> 00:09:44.359 Natural History Museum does some of 336 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:45.739 the work that you've been describing? 337 00:09:45.740 --> 00:09:46.740 Sure. So 338 00:09:47.870 --> 00:09:49.699 after the Koch campaign, so 339 00:09:49.700 --> 00:09:52.249 in December of 2016, 340 00:09:52.250 --> 00:09:54.199 David Koch very quietly stepped away 341 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:56.269 from the board of trustees of 342 00:09:56.270 --> 00:09:57.169 the American Museum of Natural 343 00:09:57.170 --> 00:09:58.069 History. 344 00:09:58.070 --> 00:09:59.749 That was a sort of symbolic victory 345 00:09:59.750 --> 00:10:00.750 for us. 346 00:10:01.730 --> 00:10:03.319 That wasn't our goal. 347 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:05.179 That was just a flash point, a 348 00:10:05.180 --> 00:10:07.099 way of building kind of interest 349 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:08.509 and energy around a certain set of 350 00:10:08.510 --> 00:10:10.669 issues. At that point, we shifted 351 00:10:10.670 --> 00:10:12.259 our tactics. 352 00:10:12.260 --> 00:10:13.969 So instead of doing a kind of 353 00:10:13.970 --> 00:10:15.499 insider-outsider strategy of 354 00:10:15.500 --> 00:10:17.239 building external pressure against 355 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:18.499 institutions at the same time that 356 00:10:18.500 --> 00:10:20.749 were organizing people within 357 00:10:20.750 --> 00:10:22.549 natural history museums to kind of 358 00:10:22.550 --> 00:10:24.469 push these things from the inside, 359 00:10:24.470 --> 00:10:26.389 we decided to invest a little bit 360 00:10:26.390 --> 00:10:28.219 more firmly and thoroughly in 361 00:10:28.220 --> 00:10:29.569 the sort of Trojan Horse strategy. 362 00:10:29.570 --> 00:10:31.609 So if you think about the model 363 00:10:31.610 --> 00:10:33.499 of the Trojan horse, you get to 364 00:10:33.500 --> 00:10:35.749 the Trojan horse. It's let in. 365 00:10:35.750 --> 00:10:37.999 At this point, we're in. 366 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.889 And this was the result of many, 367 00:10:39.890 --> 00:10:40.890 many 368 00:10:42.110 --> 00:10:44.599 months of having conversations 369 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:47.329 with museum sector people, going to 370 00:10:47.330 --> 00:10:48.919 museum conventions. 371 00:10:48.920 --> 00:10:49.759 Yeah, and we should say real 372 00:10:49.760 --> 00:10:50.869 quickly, like the Natural History 373 00:10:50.870 --> 00:10:53.119 Museum is actually registered as 374 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:55.549 a museum in the same way that 375 00:10:55.550 --> 00:10:56.599 the American Museum of Natural 376 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:57.799 History is and all the other kind 377 00:10:57.800 --> 00:10:59.869 of-- officially it's a museum 378 00:10:59.870 --> 00:11:00.769 in the same way that all these other 379 00:11:00.770 --> 00:11:02.119 places are museums. 380 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:03.829 Exactly. So that was one of the 381 00:11:03.830 --> 00:11:04.729 first things that we did that was 382 00:11:04.730 --> 00:11:06.619 part of a sort of design strategy is 383 00:11:06.620 --> 00:11:08.029 we registered as an official member 384 00:11:08.030 --> 00:11:09.799 of the American Alliance of Museums. 385 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:12.979 And we go to their 386 00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:14.809 conventions, and we do panels 387 00:11:14.810 --> 00:11:15.649 at their conventions. 388 00:11:15.650 --> 00:11:18.469 And in 2015, 389 00:11:18.470 --> 00:11:20.719 we did an exhibition 390 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:22.639 on the trade show floor 391 00:11:22.640 --> 00:11:24.379 of the American Alliance Museums 392 00:11:24.380 --> 00:11:26.089 Convention in Atlanta. 393 00:11:26.090 --> 00:11:28.249 Our exhibition was 90 394 00:11:28.250 --> 00:11:29.329 feet long. 395 00:11:29.330 --> 00:11:31.579 It was the largest exhibit in the 396 00:11:31.580 --> 00:11:32.600 on the trade show floor. 397 00:11:34.070 --> 00:11:35.569 And the American Museum of Natural 398 00:11:35.570 --> 00:11:37.399 History was selling the traveling 399 00:11:37.400 --> 00:11:39.349 shows just to start 400 00:11:39.350 --> 00:11:41.539 down. And so we were trying to 401 00:11:41.540 --> 00:11:42.769 situate ourselves as peer 402 00:11:42.770 --> 00:11:44.629 institution. And so, through some 403 00:11:44.630 --> 00:11:46.759 of this work of building trusts 404 00:11:46.760 --> 00:11:47.869 within the museum sector, at the 405 00:11:47.870 --> 00:11:49.999 same time as we were registering 406 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:51.919 ourselves as a kind of disruptor 407 00:11:51.920 --> 00:11:54.499 within it, we gained supporters. 408 00:11:54.500 --> 00:11:55.729 So there are people within the 409 00:11:55.730 --> 00:11:58.399 museum sector that are essentially 410 00:11:58.400 --> 00:12:00.379 enemies. They stand 411 00:12:00.380 --> 00:12:01.669 for a different understanding of 412 00:12:01.670 --> 00:12:02.809 natural history and a different 413 00:12:02.810 --> 00:12:04.069 understanding of what a natural 414 00:12:04.070 --> 00:12:06.289 history institution can do. 415 00:12:06.290 --> 00:12:08.329 There are also allies within 416 00:12:08.330 --> 00:12:09.529 the museum sector, and this is how 417 00:12:09.530 --> 00:12:11.179 we think about museums. They're 418 00:12:11.180 --> 00:12:12.409 split, right? 419 00:12:12.410 --> 00:12:13.729 They're divided. 420 00:12:13.730 --> 00:12:15.409 And so the project is how do you 421 00:12:15.410 --> 00:12:17.629 organize within that divided 422 00:12:17.630 --> 00:12:19.579 sector to build 423 00:12:19.580 --> 00:12:20.580 trust in alliance, and 424 00:12:22.490 --> 00:12:24.278 then to mobilize that alliance to 425 00:12:25.970 --> 00:12:27.979 push for gains to actually 426 00:12:27.980 --> 00:12:29.899 operationalize demands that may 427 00:12:29.900 --> 00:12:31.849 be coming from outside? Our strategy 428 00:12:31.850 --> 00:12:33.439 shifted when we gained position 429 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:34.549 within the museum sector. 430 00:12:34.550 --> 00:12:36.379 Basically, we said, "Now we're 431 00:12:36.380 --> 00:12:37.699 a peer institution. 432 00:12:37.700 --> 00:12:40.369 What we'd like to do is begin to 433 00:12:40.370 --> 00:12:42.289 kind of develop 434 00:12:42.290 --> 00:12:44.149 exhibitions, not in 435 00:12:44.150 --> 00:12:45.469 our own brick and mortar space, but 436 00:12:45.470 --> 00:12:47.449 within large 437 00:12:47.450 --> 00:12:49.819 mainstream natural history museums, 438 00:12:49.820 --> 00:12:51.769 in order to sort of smuggle 439 00:12:51.770 --> 00:12:54.079 in complicated 440 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:55.473 social and political content - 441 00:12:55.474 --> 00:12:57.409 difficult social 442 00:12:57.410 --> 00:12:59.569 and political content - into 443 00:12:59.570 --> 00:13:01.489 museums like the Carnegie 444 00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:03.139 Museum of Natural History, which we 445 00:13:03.140 --> 00:13:06.979 did an exhibition at in 2017 446 00:13:06.980 --> 00:13:09.049 and, most 447 00:13:09.050 --> 00:13:10.519 lately, at the Florida Museum of 448 00:13:10.520 --> 00:13:12.319 Natural History in Gainesville." 449 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:14.178 Both of those invitations came 450 00:13:15.260 --> 00:13:17.509 through our museum sector kind of 451 00:13:17.510 --> 00:13:20.029 organizing advocacy conversations. 452 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.449 And both are located in 453 00:13:23.450 --> 00:13:26.119 places that have 454 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.069 a complicated relationship 455 00:13:28.070 --> 00:13:29.629 to climate change politics. 456 00:13:29.630 --> 00:13:31.399 And so here we're in Pittsburgh 457 00:13:31.400 --> 00:13:33.289 right now, the heart of kind of coal 458 00:13:33.290 --> 00:13:34.290 and fracking country. 459 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:37.310 In Florida, the state itself. 460 00:13:37.311 --> 00:13:39.199 So state employees can't utter 461 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:40.849 the word climate change. 462 00:13:40.850 --> 00:13:43.099 And so there's an appeal 463 00:13:43.100 --> 00:13:44.959 with progressive kind of 464 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:47.719 members of the museum community, 465 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:49.159 who are working in these states, to 466 00:13:49.160 --> 00:13:51.271 inviting somebody from outside 467 00:13:53.150 --> 00:13:54.559 to deliver some of this content in 468 00:13:54.560 --> 00:13:55.339 ways that they maybe can't 469 00:13:55.340 --> 00:13:56.675 themselves. In Florida, 470 00:13:57.860 --> 00:13:59.449 what we've done is we're working 471 00:13:59.450 --> 00:14:01.189 with the Lummi Nation, which is a 472 00:14:01.190 --> 00:14:02.899 native nation on the Pacific 473 00:14:02.900 --> 00:14:04.999 Northwest, located outside 474 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:06.889 of Bellingham, Washington, 475 00:14:06.890 --> 00:14:08.779 who for the past six years has 476 00:14:08.780 --> 00:14:10.069 been doing this project called the 477 00:14:10.070 --> 00:14:11.449 Totem Pole Journey. 478 00:14:11.450 --> 00:14:13.939 So the Totem Pole Journey is 479 00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:16.159 a cross-country tour where 480 00:14:16.160 --> 00:14:17.779 the Lummi Nation House of Tears 481 00:14:17.780 --> 00:14:19.850 carvers annually carves 482 00:14:20.990 --> 00:14:22.969 a totem pole from a 483 00:14:22.970 --> 00:14:24.889 massive cedar tree that is 484 00:14:24.890 --> 00:14:27.019 responding to a kind of active 485 00:14:27.020 --> 00:14:28.729 struggle and campaign that is 486 00:14:28.730 --> 00:14:30.379 specific to the tribe and the 487 00:14:30.380 --> 00:14:32.359 tribe's relationship to the Salish 488 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:33.649 Sea region, which is where they're 489 00:14:33.650 --> 00:14:35.659 in. And what they do is they travel 490 00:14:35.660 --> 00:14:37.009 this totem pole to various sites of 491 00:14:37.010 --> 00:14:38.010 environmental struggle, 492 00:14:39.140 --> 00:14:40.969 and they do ceremonies. 493 00:14:40.970 --> 00:14:42.199 And these ceremonies are meant to 494 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:43.789 build solidarity between people who 495 00:14:43.790 --> 00:14:45.259 are facing similar issues across the 496 00:14:45.260 --> 00:14:46.260 country. 497 00:14:46.880 --> 00:14:48.679 And so the most recent totem pole 498 00:14:48.680 --> 00:14:50.509 journey was 499 00:14:50.510 --> 00:14:53.839 related to the Lummi struggles 500 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:55.519 on the Salish Sea, and specifically 501 00:14:55.520 --> 00:14:57.679 in relation to the orca population, 502 00:14:57.680 --> 00:14:59.539 which is critically endangered 503 00:14:59.540 --> 00:15:00.529 in that region. 504 00:15:00.530 --> 00:15:02.569 Why does the orca matter right now 505 00:15:02.570 --> 00:15:05.179 in the Salish Sea is that, 506 00:15:05.180 --> 00:15:07.039 because it's endangered, it's sort 507 00:15:07.040 --> 00:15:08.869 of a lever for 508 00:15:08.870 --> 00:15:10.339 environmental activists. 509 00:15:10.340 --> 00:15:12.229 An endangered species is a 510 00:15:12.230 --> 00:15:14.059 significant aspect of any legal 511 00:15:14.060 --> 00:15:15.060 strategy to 512 00:15:15.950 --> 00:15:18.439 protect a waterway. 513 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:20.599 And this Coast Salish 514 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:22.729 kind of region is really 515 00:15:22.730 --> 00:15:24.709 the key place where, 516 00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:25.849 for example, the Kinder Morgan 517 00:15:25.850 --> 00:15:27.499 pipeline right now, the proposed 518 00:15:27.500 --> 00:15:29.569 Kinder Morgan pipeline, will be 519 00:15:29.570 --> 00:15:31.729 increasing tanker traffic by 800 520 00:15:31.730 --> 00:15:33.079 tankers per year. 521 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.089 And so the Lummi 522 00:15:35.090 --> 00:15:36.559 were really focused on 523 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:39.409 kind of amplifying the sort of 524 00:15:39.410 --> 00:15:41.089 figure of the orca within this 525 00:15:41.090 --> 00:15:42.090 struggle. 526 00:15:42.530 --> 00:15:44.209 And so the latest totem pole journey 527 00:15:44.210 --> 00:15:45.499 was really around the figure of the 528 00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:46.279 orca. 529 00:15:46.280 --> 00:15:47.389 So that came down to Florida, 530 00:15:48.590 --> 00:15:50.419 and we brought it into 531 00:15:50.420 --> 00:15:51.619 the Florida Museum of Natural 532 00:15:51.620 --> 00:15:53.119 History. We built an exhibition 533 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:54.619 around it that communicated the 534 00:15:54.620 --> 00:15:56.509 relationship between the orca 535 00:15:56.510 --> 00:15:59.569 as a significant 536 00:15:59.570 --> 00:16:01.009 traditional kind of emblem and 537 00:16:01.010 --> 00:16:03.259 symbol for native tribes across 538 00:16:03.260 --> 00:16:05.659 the Pacific Northwest and 539 00:16:05.660 --> 00:16:06.979 the contemporary struggles to 540 00:16:06.980 --> 00:16:09.169 protect the Salish Sea. 541 00:16:09.170 --> 00:16:11.359 And so we paired 542 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:13.519 the totem pole with this panoramic 543 00:16:13.520 --> 00:16:15.649 video that communicates 544 00:16:15.650 --> 00:16:18.229 these ideas and, 545 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:20.059 really critically, objects from 546 00:16:20.060 --> 00:16:21.169 the museum's collection. 547 00:16:21.170 --> 00:16:23.029 So a vitrine of objects from the 548 00:16:23.030 --> 00:16:24.079 museum's collection, 549 00:16:25.481 --> 00:16:27.439 argilite sculptures, that also 550 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:29.089 include the figure of the orca. 551 00:16:29.090 --> 00:16:30.859 And what we wanted to do here is 552 00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:32.959 show how the 553 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:34.909 symbols that are active in 554 00:16:34.910 --> 00:16:36.829 native environmental struggle today 555 00:16:36.830 --> 00:16:39.019 are the same symbols 556 00:16:39.020 --> 00:16:40.969 that native communities have held 557 00:16:40.970 --> 00:16:42.096 sacred value to. 558 00:16:42.097 --> 00:16:44.059 The same symbols 559 00:16:44.060 --> 00:16:46.039 and objects and ideas 560 00:16:46.040 --> 00:16:46.969 that have been sacred to native 561 00:16:46.970 --> 00:16:48.799 communities for a very, very 562 00:16:48.800 --> 00:16:50.359 long time, for generations. 563 00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:52.969 But also, the other 564 00:16:52.970 --> 00:16:54.139 significance of bringing those 565 00:16:54.140 --> 00:16:56.149 objects from the museum's collection 566 00:16:56.150 --> 00:16:57.150 into the exhibit 567 00:16:58.130 --> 00:17:00.109 is to signal that these struggles 568 00:17:00.110 --> 00:17:01.699 are already in the museum. 569 00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:02.569 Right? 570 00:17:02.570 --> 00:17:03.949 It's already there. 571 00:17:03.950 --> 00:17:04.759 Yeah. 572 00:17:04.760 --> 00:17:05.809 But, just to pick up on that, so 573 00:17:05.810 --> 00:17:07.640 there's also kind of-- 574 00:17:08.990 --> 00:17:11.029 there are ways in which the museum 575 00:17:11.030 --> 00:17:13.068 has included 576 00:17:13.069 --> 00:17:15.229 things in their 577 00:17:15.230 --> 00:17:17.088 collection or so that kind 578 00:17:17.089 --> 00:17:18.911 of like speak to your piece 579 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:21.199 in that way. And is that one of the 580 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:23.118 ways in which you feel 581 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:24.391 like the piece is kind of exposing 582 00:17:24.392 --> 00:17:25.392 tensions that 583 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:30.079 already exist within the museum? 584 00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:32.149 Not only tensions, and not really 585 00:17:32.150 --> 00:17:34.099 tensions, potential. 586 00:17:34.100 --> 00:17:36.349 And so the significance 587 00:17:36.350 --> 00:17:38.359 of-- so why 588 00:17:38.360 --> 00:17:40.219 are we interested in 589 00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:42.109 working within 590 00:17:42.110 --> 00:17:43.549 museum contexts? 591 00:17:43.550 --> 00:17:45.619 Museums have these vast collections, 592 00:17:45.620 --> 00:17:47.809 many of which are significantly 593 00:17:47.810 --> 00:17:50.209 troubled by histories of plunder 594 00:17:50.210 --> 00:17:51.210 and theft. 595 00:17:52.070 --> 00:17:53.869 There's active movements to 596 00:17:53.870 --> 00:17:55.129 repatriate objects. 597 00:17:55.130 --> 00:17:57.649 Right? But in our conversations 598 00:17:57.650 --> 00:18:00.109 with people who are leading the 599 00:18:00.110 --> 00:18:02.179 repatriation struggles, 600 00:18:02.180 --> 00:18:04.609 we've learned that, actually, 601 00:18:04.610 --> 00:18:06.349 it's not so simple as repatriating 602 00:18:06.350 --> 00:18:08.209 all the objects to all of the 603 00:18:08.210 --> 00:18:09.979 communities right now. 604 00:18:09.980 --> 00:18:11.689 Actually, the infrastructure is not 605 00:18:11.690 --> 00:18:13.519 there yet to be 606 00:18:13.520 --> 00:18:14.719 able to accept all those objects and 607 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:15.769 care for them. 608 00:18:15.770 --> 00:18:17.749 And so there is a way in which, 609 00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:19.010 in the present term, 610 00:18:20.090 --> 00:18:21.919 the question 611 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:24.919 for native organizers working 612 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:27.379 with and within museums 613 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:29.269 is how do we work 614 00:18:29.270 --> 00:18:31.879 on repatriation struggles, but also 615 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:33.739 how do we mobilize what's already in 616 00:18:33.740 --> 00:18:34.549 museums? 617 00:18:34.550 --> 00:18:35.479 And so one of the things that we're 618 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:36.979 trying to do with this is to think 619 00:18:36.980 --> 00:18:38.479 through how do you use an object 620 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:40.099 that's already in a museum that's 621 00:18:40.100 --> 00:18:42.039 not currently being sort of 622 00:18:42.040 --> 00:18:44.449 fought for by showing 623 00:18:44.450 --> 00:18:46.669 its relationship to ongoing 624 00:18:46.670 --> 00:18:48.079 environmental struggle. 625 00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:49.279 Because that's one of the things 626 00:18:49.280 --> 00:18:50.269 that's really special and 627 00:18:50.270 --> 00:18:52.489 significant and powerful about 628 00:18:52.490 --> 00:18:54.229 the native-led environmental 629 00:18:54.230 --> 00:18:56.479 movement is that 630 00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:58.969 the commitment to traditional 631 00:18:58.970 --> 00:19:01.639 symbols and traditional objects 632 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:03.859 and traditional cultures 633 00:19:03.860 --> 00:19:06.349 is absolutely significant 634 00:19:06.350 --> 00:19:08.779 to the power that those movements 635 00:19:08.780 --> 00:19:10.669 have. I can get a bit sort of 636 00:19:10.670 --> 00:19:12.149 theoretical here first a second. 637 00:19:12.150 --> 00:19:13.339 That's okay on Being Human. 638 00:19:13.340 --> 00:19:15.199 Okay. So 639 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:16.200 one of our-- 640 00:19:17.450 --> 00:19:19.429 one of our really important 641 00:19:19.430 --> 00:19:20.719 interlocutors with the Natural 642 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:21.769 History Museum and Not An Alternative 643 00:19:21.770 --> 00:19:24.109 is Jodi Dean, political theorist. 644 00:19:24.110 --> 00:19:25.549 And one of the concepts that she 645 00:19:25.550 --> 00:19:27.529 deploys in some of her 646 00:19:27.530 --> 00:19:29.749 work is the concept of the decline 647 00:19:29.750 --> 00:19:31.729 of symbolic efficiency. 648 00:19:31.730 --> 00:19:33.559 So she argues that in 649 00:19:33.560 --> 00:19:35.089 the conditions of communicative 650 00:19:35.090 --> 00:19:37.189 capitalism, so online 651 00:19:37.190 --> 00:19:38.179 digital flows, all that sort of 652 00:19:38.180 --> 00:19:40.759 stuff, there's been a kind of 653 00:19:40.760 --> 00:19:42.589 crisis in our ability to 654 00:19:42.590 --> 00:19:43.729 communicate. 655 00:19:43.730 --> 00:19:46.039 Okay, so signification is sort of 656 00:19:46.040 --> 00:19:47.419 troubled. 657 00:19:47.420 --> 00:19:48.379 The reason is there's a 658 00:19:48.380 --> 00:19:50.239 proliferation of content. 659 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:51.499 And in that, through the 660 00:19:51.500 --> 00:19:52.939 proliferation of content, we don't 661 00:19:52.940 --> 00:19:54.458 have necessarily a coherence, but 662 00:19:56.360 --> 00:19:57.619 we have this sort of proliferation 663 00:19:57.620 --> 00:19:58.969 also of these sort of subcultural 664 00:19:58.970 --> 00:19:59.959 differences. 665 00:19:59.960 --> 00:20:01.309 Location to location. 666 00:20:01.310 --> 00:20:02.299 Community to community. 667 00:20:02.300 --> 00:20:03.820 Right? And we can see that with the 668 00:20:05.300 --> 00:20:07.189 online 4Chan culture 669 00:20:07.190 --> 00:20:08.190 or something like that. 670 00:20:09.320 --> 00:20:11.149 And so one of the problems for left 671 00:20:11.150 --> 00:20:13.849 activism is 672 00:20:13.850 --> 00:20:15.649 how do you-- and the question for 673 00:20:15.650 --> 00:20:17.599 left activism is how do you build 674 00:20:17.600 --> 00:20:19.759 a language in common that stitches 675 00:20:19.760 --> 00:20:21.379 together local struggles to create a 676 00:20:21.380 --> 00:20:22.872 movement? One of the answers to that 677 00:20:22.873 --> 00:20:24.469 - that I think is really, really 678 00:20:24.470 --> 00:20:26.569 compelling with the way that 679 00:20:26.570 --> 00:20:28.729 Standing Rock, for example, 680 00:20:28.730 --> 00:20:30.949 mobilized traditional objects, 681 00:20:30.950 --> 00:20:33.589 histories, symbols, 682 00:20:33.590 --> 00:20:35.419 images - is that it 683 00:20:35.420 --> 00:20:37.279 showed that a commitment to a 684 00:20:37.280 --> 00:20:38.280 set of-- to 685 00:20:39.290 --> 00:20:41.449 a visual language, to language 686 00:20:41.450 --> 00:20:43.388 in common, and one that 687 00:20:44.990 --> 00:20:46.579 has history, can answer that 688 00:20:46.580 --> 00:20:48.109 question of how do you kind of cut 689 00:20:48.110 --> 00:20:50.629 against that 690 00:20:50.630 --> 00:20:52.879 tendency on the left 691 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.709 and that tendency in society to 692 00:20:54.710 --> 00:20:56.989 sort of give up on 693 00:20:56.990 --> 00:20:57.990 something that has power 694 00:20:59.760 --> 00:21:01.639 at the first sign of trouble. 695 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:03.049 So I want to ask you in connection 696 00:21:03.050 --> 00:21:05.629 to this with this idea that 697 00:21:05.630 --> 00:21:06.829 you just mentioned of kind of like 698 00:21:06.830 --> 00:21:08.359 creating a commonality through a 699 00:21:08.360 --> 00:21:09.589 kind of visual language. 700 00:21:09.590 --> 00:21:10.590 Right? 701 00:21:11.270 --> 00:21:12.439 I want to ask you about the role 702 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:14.359 that divisiveness plays 703 00:21:14.360 --> 00:21:15.619 for you in your work because 704 00:21:15.620 --> 00:21:17.269 creating-- and this is kind of like 705 00:21:17.270 --> 00:21:18.409 reading-- I get some of this in 706 00:21:18.410 --> 00:21:19.609 reading-- Jodi Dean's written about 707 00:21:19.610 --> 00:21:20.719 the Natural History Museum, and we 708 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:22.549 can link to the essay 709 00:21:22.550 --> 00:21:23.539 because I think it's really a good 710 00:21:23.540 --> 00:21:25.069 essay. It talks a lot about kind of 711 00:21:25.070 --> 00:21:27.439 like your work, and I learned a lot 712 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:28.459 about the Natural History Museum 713 00:21:28.460 --> 00:21:29.419 from reading it. 714 00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:30.349 And I can link to that in the 715 00:21:30.350 --> 00:21:32.299 comments or the description 716 00:21:32.300 --> 00:21:33.559 of the podcast. 717 00:21:34.850 --> 00:21:36.529 But the idea-- but another thing 718 00:21:36.530 --> 00:21:37.849 in-- so she talks a little bit about 719 00:21:37.850 --> 00:21:40.159 this, you and other places 720 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:41.359 have talked about - you is 721 00:21:41.360 --> 00:21:42.259 Not An Alternative - talked a little 722 00:21:42.260 --> 00:21:44.089 bit about kind of the role 723 00:21:44.090 --> 00:21:45.559 of divisiveness, making people take 724 00:21:45.560 --> 00:21:46.669 sides and how that's an essential 725 00:21:46.670 --> 00:21:47.509 part of your work. 726 00:21:47.510 --> 00:21:49.099 How does that work together with the 727 00:21:49.100 --> 00:21:51.049 kind of commonality 728 00:21:51.050 --> 00:21:52.159 that you're trying to create and 729 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:53.659 that you just spoke about around a 730 00:21:53.660 --> 00:21:55.429 kind of common language or a visual 731 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:56.389 language? 732 00:21:56.390 --> 00:21:58.729 Sure. And so politics 733 00:21:58.730 --> 00:22:01.099 emerges through division. 734 00:22:01.100 --> 00:22:03.199 So that's a sort of a central point 735 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:04.789 that Jodi makes again and again. 736 00:22:04.790 --> 00:22:06.320 But we've also made it in our work. 737 00:22:07.550 --> 00:22:09.799 So what we mean by that is 738 00:22:09.800 --> 00:22:11.629 the goal of political 739 00:22:11.630 --> 00:22:12.630 struggle, 740 00:22:13.670 --> 00:22:15.499 in the short term, is not 741 00:22:15.500 --> 00:22:16.500 to be 742 00:22:19.040 --> 00:22:20.040 all-inclusive. 743 00:22:20.540 --> 00:22:21.949 It's to name 744 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:25.359 a common enemy. 745 00:22:25.360 --> 00:22:26.169 Right? 746 00:22:26.170 --> 00:22:28.089 So in the case 747 00:22:28.090 --> 00:22:29.499 of Occupy Wall Street, that was the 748 00:22:29.500 --> 00:22:30.500 1%. 749 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.009 Occupy Wall Street operated 750 00:22:33.010 --> 00:22:34.839 on a logic of division 751 00:22:34.840 --> 00:22:36.909 by claiming the 99% 752 00:22:36.910 --> 00:22:38.919 against the 1%. 753 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:40.929 That 99% names 754 00:22:40.930 --> 00:22:43.029 a new constituency, 755 00:22:43.030 --> 00:22:45.039 a people, a divided people. 756 00:22:45.040 --> 00:22:46.329 Their interests are different within 757 00:22:46.330 --> 00:22:47.949 it. And there's been plenty of kind 758 00:22:47.950 --> 00:22:50.319 of criticism within 759 00:22:50.320 --> 00:22:52.149 that discourse, which is 760 00:22:52.150 --> 00:22:53.079 important. 761 00:22:53.080 --> 00:22:55.209 But the function of that claim, 762 00:22:55.210 --> 00:22:57.579 the 99% against the 1%, 763 00:22:57.580 --> 00:23:00.279 is to create 764 00:23:00.280 --> 00:23:02.139 solidarity against a 765 00:23:02.140 --> 00:23:03.549 common enemy. 766 00:23:03.550 --> 00:23:05.449 That common enemy goes by 767 00:23:05.450 --> 00:23:07.119 the name 1%, Wall Street, or 768 00:23:07.120 --> 00:23:08.120 capitalism. 769 00:23:08.770 --> 00:23:10.629 That is incredibly important to the 770 00:23:10.630 --> 00:23:11.649 building of solidarity. 771 00:23:11.650 --> 00:23:13.779 You build solidarities 772 00:23:13.780 --> 00:23:15.999 not by inviting your enemy 773 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:17.829 but by establishing 774 00:23:17.830 --> 00:23:19.749 bonds through struggle. 775 00:23:19.750 --> 00:23:21.429 Without division, there is no 776 00:23:21.430 --> 00:23:22.539 struggle. 777 00:23:22.540 --> 00:23:23.469 Right. So let me ask you another 778 00:23:23.470 --> 00:23:24.849 kind of like-- maybe this is another 779 00:23:24.850 --> 00:23:27.249 big-picture question about 780 00:23:27.250 --> 00:23:28.959 the approach that kind of 781 00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:29.919 Not An Alternative has. 782 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:31.029 These are big-picture questions 783 00:23:31.030 --> 00:23:32.259 about kind of like togetherness and 784 00:23:32.260 --> 00:23:34.239 unity and how you 785 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:35.240 approach them. 786 00:23:36.370 --> 00:23:38.199 Because one of the essays that 787 00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:39.369 Not An Alternative wrote about 788 00:23:39.370 --> 00:23:40.809 Occupy Wall Street and kind of 789 00:23:40.810 --> 00:23:42.549 working with Occupy and the lessons 790 00:23:42.550 --> 00:23:45.279 that the group took from that 791 00:23:45.280 --> 00:23:46.280 work, 792 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.509 there's this line, and I can 793 00:23:49.510 --> 00:23:50.919 just read it to you. Because to me, 794 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:52.809 anyway, it was a very central line 795 00:23:52.810 --> 00:23:54.969 for understanding the way 796 00:23:54.970 --> 00:23:57.129 that you view your work. 797 00:23:57.130 --> 00:23:59.169 And the line is, "Occupiers made 798 00:23:59.170 --> 00:24:00.429 the decision to take up the name 799 00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:02.199 Occupy not because they agreed with 800 00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:03.639 it, but because they knew Occupy 801 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:05.019 represented something they believed 802 00:24:05.020 --> 00:24:06.699 in, and that they had seen work 803 00:24:06.700 --> 00:24:08.139 elsewhere." Can you talk a little 804 00:24:08.140 --> 00:24:09.279 bit about that, the difference 805 00:24:09.280 --> 00:24:11.679 between agreeing and 806 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:13.599 believing as it's put here, 807 00:24:13.600 --> 00:24:15.549 and is that central to your 808 00:24:15.550 --> 00:24:17.439 work? And how would you elaborate 809 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:18.099 on that? 810 00:24:18.100 --> 00:24:20.049 Sure. So that was in response to 811 00:24:20.050 --> 00:24:21.729 a certain set of claims around 812 00:24:21.730 --> 00:24:22.659 Occupy. 813 00:24:22.660 --> 00:24:24.819 Consensus was essential to Occupy. 814 00:24:24.820 --> 00:24:27.309 That it was about agreeing on 815 00:24:27.310 --> 00:24:29.739 a set of general terms about 816 00:24:29.740 --> 00:24:30.909 what Occupy meant. 817 00:24:30.910 --> 00:24:32.949 Now, the problem with that is 818 00:24:32.950 --> 00:24:34.119 Occupy meant very different things 819 00:24:34.120 --> 00:24:35.329 for very different people. 820 00:24:35.330 --> 00:24:36.309 So how do we account for the 821 00:24:36.310 --> 00:24:37.399 strength of Occupy? 822 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:38.289 That's what we were trying to get out 823 00:24:38.290 --> 00:24:39.219 through this. 824 00:24:39.220 --> 00:24:40.779 And our argument was the strength of 825 00:24:40.780 --> 00:24:42.639 Occupy was that it 826 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:44.619 was iterating on a language 827 00:24:46.900 --> 00:24:48.939 that had worked elsewhere. 828 00:24:48.940 --> 00:24:51.009 And so Occupy did not happen 829 00:24:51.010 --> 00:24:52.959 in Zuccotti Park for no 830 00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:54.369 reason. It happened in Zuccotti 831 00:24:54.370 --> 00:24:55.359 Park. 832 00:24:55.360 --> 00:24:57.339 So it manifested as an occupation 833 00:24:57.340 --> 00:24:58.929 in a public square because there was 834 00:24:58.930 --> 00:25:00.759 a movement of the squares 835 00:25:00.760 --> 00:25:02.289 that preceded it. Right? 836 00:25:02.290 --> 00:25:03.519 Right. Not in the U.S.. 837 00:25:03.520 --> 00:25:04.579 You're talking about-- 838 00:25:04.580 --> 00:25:06.940 About Spain, Greece, Egypt. 839 00:25:08.740 --> 00:25:09.740 And so 840 00:25:11.260 --> 00:25:13.659 the way that 841 00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:15.939 Occupy iterated on a common form, 842 00:25:15.940 --> 00:25:17.559 not of the occupation in the public 843 00:25:17.560 --> 00:25:19.689 square, places it in 844 00:25:19.690 --> 00:25:20.690 a 845 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:24.279 kind of a linkage of struggles. 846 00:25:24.280 --> 00:25:25.719 All of those struggles were against 847 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.119 austerity, against 848 00:25:28.120 --> 00:25:30.459 the 1%, against neoliberal 849 00:25:30.460 --> 00:25:32.319 capitalism, and its effects on 850 00:25:32.320 --> 00:25:33.699 people in very different places. 851 00:25:33.700 --> 00:25:36.549 But it creates a sense 852 00:25:36.550 --> 00:25:38.349 of a movement that threatens 853 00:25:38.350 --> 00:25:39.789 capital. 854 00:25:39.790 --> 00:25:42.159 Now, if it was just 855 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:44.019 a localized thing, I mean, that 856 00:25:44.020 --> 00:25:45.939 is a struggle that the left has 857 00:25:45.940 --> 00:25:47.889 oftentimes had in the last 858 00:25:47.890 --> 00:25:49.869 30 or 40 years is 859 00:25:49.870 --> 00:25:51.189 the sort of localization of 860 00:25:51.190 --> 00:25:52.299 struggles. So that sort of 861 00:25:52.300 --> 00:25:54.579 particularization of struggles 862 00:25:54.580 --> 00:25:57.219 coming at the expense of the kind of 863 00:25:57.220 --> 00:25:58.869 what was in that anti-globalization 864 00:25:58.870 --> 00:26:00.759 movement I described as the movement 865 00:26:00.760 --> 00:26:02.409 of movements. So the way that 866 00:26:02.410 --> 00:26:04.659 movements come together to 867 00:26:04.660 --> 00:26:06.549 produce a threat 868 00:26:06.550 --> 00:26:08.529 to the capitalist economic 869 00:26:08.530 --> 00:26:09.369 system. 870 00:26:09.370 --> 00:26:11.169 Okay. So let me ask you one-- this 871 00:26:11.170 --> 00:26:12.849 is maybe the last question I've got 872 00:26:12.850 --> 00:26:14.199 for you. It's about a metaphor for 873 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.119 your group. And you can-- 874 00:26:16.120 --> 00:26:18.009 I hope this is interesting to you, 875 00:26:18.010 --> 00:26:19.719 but like the one-- we talked a 876 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:20.739 little bit about kind of like-- 877 00:26:20.740 --> 00:26:22.599 you've talked about your group, 878 00:26:22.600 --> 00:26:24.099 the Natural History Museum, as a 879 00:26:24.100 --> 00:26:25.629 Trojan horse kind of being a way 880 00:26:25.630 --> 00:26:27.519 that you viewed your work. 881 00:26:27.520 --> 00:26:29.499 Your website also has a description 882 00:26:29.500 --> 00:26:30.939 for it. It uses the metaphor of a 883 00:26:30.940 --> 00:26:31.899 skunkworks. 884 00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:33.369 And I wonder, listening to you talk 885 00:26:33.370 --> 00:26:34.419 about it now, it's occurred to me 886 00:26:34.420 --> 00:26:36.309 that maybe the 887 00:26:36.310 --> 00:26:38.289 Trojan horse has kind of like given 888 00:26:38.290 --> 00:26:39.729 way to the skunkworks, and you're 889 00:26:39.730 --> 00:26:41.259 thinking about your own work because 890 00:26:41.260 --> 00:26:42.909 you've already been invited inside 891 00:26:42.910 --> 00:26:43.899 the gates. 892 00:26:43.900 --> 00:26:44.949 Does that make sense? Is that the 893 00:26:44.950 --> 00:26:45.879 way to make sense of those 894 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:46.629 metaphors? 895 00:26:46.630 --> 00:26:47.429 Sure. 896 00:26:47.430 --> 00:26:49.299 So returning 897 00:26:49.300 --> 00:26:51.189 to the metaphor of the Trojan horse, 898 00:26:51.190 --> 00:26:52.629 where are we at right now in this 899 00:26:52.630 --> 00:26:53.559 project? 900 00:26:53.560 --> 00:26:55.989 We're firmly inside the horse. 901 00:26:55.990 --> 00:26:57.429 We're waiting. 902 00:26:57.430 --> 00:26:58.209 We're planning. 903 00:26:58.210 --> 00:26:59.169 We're organizing. 904 00:26:59.170 --> 00:26:59.949 Right? 905 00:26:59.950 --> 00:27:01.629 We're not yet getting out of the 906 00:27:01.630 --> 00:27:02.619 horse. If we got out of the horse 907 00:27:02.620 --> 00:27:04.779 right now, the troops would 908 00:27:04.780 --> 00:27:05.780 shoot us down. 909 00:27:07.060 --> 00:27:09.009 So there's a way in which patience 910 00:27:09.010 --> 00:27:10.839 and organizing are 911 00:27:10.840 --> 00:27:11.619 incredibly important. 912 00:27:11.620 --> 00:27:12.620 But also, 913 00:27:13.630 --> 00:27:15.759 the question that we have from 914 00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:17.169 within our position, within the 915 00:27:17.170 --> 00:27:18.849 museum sector, to get out of that 916 00:27:18.850 --> 00:27:21.249 metaphor can be useful. 917 00:27:21.250 --> 00:27:22.234 And so we think about the Natural 918 00:27:22.235 --> 00:27:24.129 History Museum, not only as a kind 919 00:27:24.130 --> 00:27:25.599 of activist organization but also as 920 00:27:25.600 --> 00:27:28.149 a kind of prefiguring of another 921 00:27:28.150 --> 00:27:29.409 kind of museum. 922 00:27:29.410 --> 00:27:31.239 And that's kind of the model 923 00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:32.799 of the skunkworks of like working 924 00:27:32.800 --> 00:27:35.079 out strategies, tactics 925 00:27:35.080 --> 00:27:37.719 that can be deployed more broadly. 926 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:38.739 It's a modeling project. 927 00:27:38.740 --> 00:27:40.029 We're modeling the museum of the 928 00:27:40.030 --> 00:27:41.859 future. That's another thing that 929 00:27:41.860 --> 00:27:42.759 we're describing. 930 00:27:42.760 --> 00:27:43.760 And so, from 931 00:27:45.010 --> 00:27:46.029 within the gates of the museum 932 00:27:46.030 --> 00:27:48.129 sector, what we're afforded 933 00:27:48.130 --> 00:27:49.989 now is a certain amount of 934 00:27:49.990 --> 00:27:52.029 legitimacy and visibility with 935 00:27:52.030 --> 00:27:54.039 our peer institutions to model 936 00:27:54.040 --> 00:27:55.899 practices that they can take 937 00:27:55.900 --> 00:27:57.039 up. 938 00:27:57.040 --> 00:27:57.999 And so one of the things that we're 939 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:00.249 trying to do is to train 940 00:28:00.250 --> 00:28:02.139 museum workers how to 941 00:28:02.140 --> 00:28:04.119 engage with climate justice in 942 00:28:04.120 --> 00:28:05.649 environmental justice communities. 943 00:28:05.650 --> 00:28:07.719 They just don't know many of them. 944 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:09.069 Most of them. 945 00:28:09.070 --> 00:28:09.939 It's not their language. 946 00:28:09.940 --> 00:28:11.829 Right? From our position within 947 00:28:11.830 --> 00:28:14.139 the museum sector, we can now 948 00:28:14.140 --> 00:28:16.089 work as peers to sort 949 00:28:16.090 --> 00:28:18.189 of train people, 950 00:28:18.190 --> 00:28:20.859 sensitize them, to the certain 951 00:28:20.860 --> 00:28:23.089 way of working with communities 952 00:28:23.090 --> 00:28:24.009 because there's ways of working with 953 00:28:24.010 --> 00:28:25.269 communities that are detrimental to 954 00:28:25.270 --> 00:28:26.289 those communities and their struggles. 955 00:28:26.290 --> 00:28:27.279 And there's ways of working with 956 00:28:27.280 --> 00:28:28.329 communities that can be supportive 957 00:28:28.330 --> 00:28:29.409 of their struggles. 958 00:28:29.410 --> 00:28:31.449 So how can we leverage the resources 959 00:28:31.450 --> 00:28:32.679 of the museum sector, which are 960 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:34.659 great in terms of financial 961 00:28:34.660 --> 00:28:36.129 resources, in terms of visibility. 962 00:28:36.130 --> 00:28:37.130 There's a public trust. 963 00:28:39.190 --> 00:28:41.079 How do we leverage those 964 00:28:41.080 --> 00:28:43.299 to support struggles 965 00:28:43.300 --> 00:28:45.279 that are already happening? 966 00:28:45.280 --> 00:28:46.629 Okay. 967 00:28:46.630 --> 00:28:47.889 Steve Lyons, thanks so much for 968 00:28:47.890 --> 00:28:48.459 joining us. 969 00:28:48.460 --> 00:28:49.329 Thank you. 970 00:28:49.330 --> 00:28:50.619 That's it for this edition of Being 971 00:28:50.620 --> 00:28:52.449 Human. This episode was produced 972 00:28:52.450 --> 00:28:54.249 by Noah Livingston, Humanities Media 973 00:28:54.250 --> 00:28:55.239 Fellow at the University of 974 00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:57.009 Pittsburgh. Stay tuned next time for 975 00:28:57.010 --> 00:28:58.179 an interview with Ed Ayers, 976 00:28:58.180 --> 00:28:59.739 professor of History and President 977 00:28:59.740 --> 00:29:00.999 Emeritus at the University of 978 00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:02.000 Richmond.
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