Fiction, Exile, and Alternative Histories: An Interview with Nuruddin Farah

WEBVTT

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Hello and welcome to the latest

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installment of Being Human from the

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University of Pittsburgh.

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This series is devoted to exploring

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the humanities, their connections to

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other disciplines, and their value

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in the public world.

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I'm Dan Kubis, associate director of

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the Humanities Center at Pitt.

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My guest today is novelist Nuruddin

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Farah. Born in the city of Baidoa,

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Farah attended school there and in

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the Ogaden, an ethnic Somali region

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of eastern Ethiopia, until his

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family was forced to leave due to

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violent conflict.

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He attended Punjab University in

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India, pursued a master's degree

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at Essex University in the UK,

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and has also spent considerable

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amounts of time living in the U.S.,

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Germany, and South Africa,

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partly because his writing forced

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him into exile from his native land

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for more than 20 years.

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Farah has been publishing fiction,

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plays, and criticism since 1970

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and just published his 14th novel

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titled North of Dawn last month.

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In his writing, he registers the

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instability and violence of Western

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imperialism as accurately and

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sensitively as any writer of the

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last 50 years.

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His 1983 novel, Close Sesame,

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for example, has been called the

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best novel ever written about the

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terrors, hopes, and ironies of

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post-colonial tyranny.

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Farah has won a number of the most

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prestigious literary awards in the

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world, including the Neustadt

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International Prize for Literature

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in 1998.

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He has also consistently earned

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praise for his ability to write as

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wonderfully and as clearly about

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women as he does about men.

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But Farah's fiction does more than

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just record injustice, as essential

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as that work is.

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Ultimately, it proposes a different

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way of responding to injustice

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and to the complexities that come

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with the various ethnicities,

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languages, and histories that exist

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across the globe.

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Rather than reacting out of fear or

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building walls, his fiction reminds

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us that humans have resources for

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creating structures of co-existence,

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even if those structures need to be

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constantly renewed and re-energized

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to keep from becoming rigid and

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exclusive.

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One of Farah's favorite ideas that

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he associates with this coexistence

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is cosmopolitanism.

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And I began by asking him to talk

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about that quality and how it exists

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in his adopted hometown of Cape

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Town, South Africa.

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It's a cosmopolitan city,

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and it's a city in which,

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despite the sad history

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of the city

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during apartheid and even now,

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one feels

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that one can actually take

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time off from all these historical

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complications and just live

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in it for its

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beauty.

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For the fact that in the Cape

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Town, in the Cape Peninsula,

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which comprises Cape

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Town and the towns and cities

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around it, allows

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you to enjoy the beauty of nature

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and the

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frequent

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privacies that you can enjoy

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in a city like Cape Town more than

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most other cities in Africa.

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And since I decided many,

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many years ago that I was going to

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live in Africa for

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much of my life,

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even though this is not always

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the case,

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my being based in Cape

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Town gives me the comfort that when

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other parts of the world are

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burning, I can go back to

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Cape Town and do my writing because

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that's where I do all the writing.

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You mentioned the cosmopolitanism

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of Cape Town.

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I

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want to turn to your fiction for a

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second, but maybe keep

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that cosmopolitan idea alive.

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So

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anybody who knows anything about your writing knows that Somalia is a
central presence in your work. It seems to me that you are also interested
in preserving-- you've said that you write to keep Somalia alive. It seems
to me that you write not only to keep Somalia alive but to keep a certain
kind of cosmopolitan possibility

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-that you know in Somalia

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- alive. You know this from Mogadishu. You know this from other places in
the country as well. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that.
That is the idea of cosmopolitan Somalia.

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Well, there are two

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phenomena that go together for me

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in my mind.

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And one of them is cosmopolitanism.

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And cosmopolitanism,

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for me, suggests

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an openness of mind,

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a tolerance for differences,

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the celebration of

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these differences because everyone

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comes to the party, so to speak,

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with their own personal qualities,

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with their own history.

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And therefore, each person,

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when they come to a party, when they

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come to the circle,

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brings a wealth

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that no one else

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in the circle, no one else at the

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party has.

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Cape Town, therefore, allows

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a Somali such as myself,

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a European living

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residing in Cape Town for a

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few months, a university

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professor, an artist, a filmmaker,

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all of these people,

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to meet, converge

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on the city, and therefore

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contribute to each other's

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well-being and contribute

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to each other's

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richness of experience.

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Now, with cosmopolitanism,

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in my view, comes

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secularism as well.

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And because I have been-- I

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come from Somalia, where

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this terrorist group, al-Shabab,

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claiming to be Muslims, have been

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massacring people, killing people,

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throwing bombs, doing all kinds of

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terrible things.

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And it protects you.

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The ideas of cosmopolitanism

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and the idea--

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my faith

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and the idea of secularism

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protects me

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from

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that onslaught

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on my person, on

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my ideology and my philosophy,

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and so on and so forth.

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So in the one hand,

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if there was a flag, I would have

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cosmopolitanism, and in the other,

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secularism.

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And that, therefore, allows

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people of different backgrounds,

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different ancestries

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to live together side by side

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and to, as I said before,

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appreciate the differences

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that join them.

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Yeah. And this is a this

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is a kind of a very big-picture

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question for you.

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I mean, your first novel was

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published in 1970.

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So it's been-- you've been writing

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novels for many years.

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Is there a way in which

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you think that you

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are kind of, say,

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enacting those

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beliefs in cosmopolitanism and

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secularism in your fiction?

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Yes, because the majority of my

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fiction, with the exception of

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the first novel, takes place

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entirely in

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a cosmopolitan setting.

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And therefore, there

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is a debate

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as to the present day and what's

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happening. There is a debate as to

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the past and what happened

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and how to reconcile oneself

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to the changes of the seasons,

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the changes of the moods, the

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changes of the centuries.

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But there is a big difference, for

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example, between Cape Town

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and many of the other cities in

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Africa in which I have lived.

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And I

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continue to go to

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some of these other cities

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while I have my base

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in Cape Town.

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And it's very possible, because

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of who I am,

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that no city would

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accept me wholly

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because I'm

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in Cape Town, and the Capetonians

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have suspicion that I

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am there less often

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than the majority of them are, and

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they have no idea what I do when I'm

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not there.

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And then the books

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also give you the possibility

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of a debate.

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That cosmopolitan debate, that

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secular debate, the

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one that is

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essential. A debate that's

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very, very essential between

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communities.

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And you must

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realize that debates

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such as these can only take place

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in a city setting.

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Yeah. I

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want to ask you more about that

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idea of debate, that idea of

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kind of the cosmopolitan possibility

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in your fiction. I wonder

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if you think

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that the novel as a

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form is the thing

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that-- does it always present this

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possibility for debate?

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Well, yes, it does.

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It does. And the reason is if you

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bring two people together

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in a room,

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and they talk,

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very often they agree or disagree.

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And regardless of

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the direction in which their

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conversation

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may take,

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the debate continues until

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a third party joins and a fourth

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party and then the world

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will be represented in that room.

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Mini-world would you represent

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in that room. And a novel

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more than a

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play, the

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novel more than poetry,

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has the possibility of opening

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that dialogue that continues

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and reverberates in the

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room in which you are.

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Now,

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the good thing about the novels

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is that they don't necessarily have

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to end, number

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one. And number two, the good thing

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about novels is you don't have to

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write only one novel about that

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subject because you could come and

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look at it from different

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angles and then treat

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the same thing differently.

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And then you can obviously

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decide that tomorrow

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the same characters would meet,

289
00:10:37.850 --> 00:10:39.829
and then they would change their

290
00:10:39.830 --> 00:10:41.599
mind about the things that they said

291
00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:43.009
yesterday.

292
00:10:43.010 --> 00:10:44.899
Now, that possibility

293
00:10:44.900 --> 00:10:47.029
is available in the novel

294
00:10:47.030 --> 00:10:49.309
but not necessarily in poetry

295
00:10:49.310 --> 00:10:51.180
or in theater.

296
00:10:52.520 --> 00:10:54.139
Yeah. I mean, I love the way you're

297
00:10:54.140 --> 00:10:56.119
talking about the-- you

298
00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:57.036
talked about a party earlier.

299
00:10:57.037 --> 00:10:58.037
You talk about other

300
00:10:58.880 --> 00:11:00.739
people entering and changing the

301
00:11:00.740 --> 00:11:01.740
scene. Hiding

302
00:11:03.290 --> 00:11:04.999
in Plain Sight is your most recent

303
00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.819
novel, that you published from 2014,

304
00:11:07.820 --> 00:11:09.679
and the scene that

305
00:11:09.680 --> 00:11:11.329
it ends with-- the dinner party

306
00:11:11.330 --> 00:11:12.529
scene there.

307
00:11:12.530 --> 00:11:14.389
And there are dinner parties in

308
00:11:14.390 --> 00:11:15.469
your fiction frequently.

309
00:11:15.470 --> 00:11:17.389
But this is something that

310
00:11:17.390 --> 00:11:18.390
you very explicitly

311
00:11:21.260 --> 00:11:23.359
describe this is what happens

312
00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:24.619
in this scene and in these party

313
00:11:24.620 --> 00:11:25.859
scenes. As another person comes in,

314
00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:27.469
you say, and then the mood was

315
00:11:27.470 --> 00:11:29.119
shifted in a certain way, and then

316
00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:30.079
another person comes in, and then

317
00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:31.099
the mood was shifted. And a certain

318
00:11:31.100 --> 00:11:32.269
person leaves, and then the mood is

319
00:11:32.270 --> 00:11:33.949
shifted. And so it's very-- you're

320
00:11:33.950 --> 00:11:36.079
kind of dramatizing that in a way

321
00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:37.489
in these moments.

322
00:11:37.490 --> 00:11:39.319
Yes. Because everybody brings their

323
00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:41.479
own history. Everybody brings

324
00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:43.669
their likes and dislikes.

325
00:11:43.670 --> 00:11:45.169
And any two people who have known

326
00:11:45.170 --> 00:11:47.449
each other for a long time

327
00:11:47.450 --> 00:11:49.549
are likely

328
00:11:49.550 --> 00:11:51.289
not only to know each other but to

329
00:11:51.290 --> 00:11:53.149
like or dislike each

330
00:11:53.150 --> 00:11:55.879
other. And then there is friction.

331
00:11:55.880 --> 00:11:57.919
There is gossip.

332
00:11:57.920 --> 00:11:58.920
There is

333
00:12:00.950 --> 00:12:02.239
envy.

334
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:04.339
Somebody walks into a room

335
00:12:04.340 --> 00:12:05.809
where you are.

336
00:12:05.810 --> 00:12:06.810
As a writer,

337
00:12:07.640 --> 00:12:09.379
you haven't published a book for

338
00:12:09.380 --> 00:12:10.999
five, six years.

339
00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:13.189
Somebody walks in, you say, "Hello,

340
00:12:13.190 --> 00:12:14.869
how are you?" And then they say,

341
00:12:14.870 --> 00:12:16.879
"I've just finished a book." When

342
00:12:16.880 --> 00:12:18.379
you know that they've finished

343
00:12:18.380 --> 00:12:19.380
another book

344
00:12:20.660 --> 00:12:22.639
a year ago, two years ago.

345
00:12:22.640 --> 00:12:25.159
And therefore, there is that

346
00:12:25.160 --> 00:12:27.409
immense possibility

347
00:12:27.410 --> 00:12:28.410
of

348
00:12:29.690 --> 00:12:31.099
wounds

349
00:12:32.510 --> 00:12:33.701
being opened.

350
00:12:35.900 --> 00:12:38.510
Bad memories being revisited.

351
00:12:42.350 --> 00:12:44.179
I could just stay with this

352
00:12:44.180 --> 00:12:46.009
one scene, this idea of the party

353
00:12:46.010 --> 00:12:47.239
and kind of coming and leaving for

354
00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:48.240
one moment.

355
00:12:48.860 --> 00:12:51.379
When I read that

356
00:12:51.380 --> 00:12:53.479
scene, I reread it to prepare

357
00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:55.297
to speak with you a few weeks ago.

358
00:12:56.540 --> 00:12:58.789
I was

359
00:12:58.790 --> 00:13:01.009
very much reminded of a scene from

360
00:13:01.010 --> 00:13:02.479
To the Lighthouse from Virginia

361
00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:04.129
Woolf's novel, where Mrs. Ramsay has

362
00:13:04.130 --> 00:13:05.449
her dinner party at the end of the

363
00:13:05.450 --> 00:13:07.219
first part of that novel.

364
00:13:07.220 --> 00:13:08.689
And I know Virginia Woolf is someone

365
00:13:08.690 --> 00:13:10.500
who has meant a lot to you.

366
00:13:11.660 --> 00:13:13.729
And I guess I wanted to ask

367
00:13:13.730 --> 00:13:15.589
you about that

368
00:13:15.590 --> 00:13:17.599
connection, not necessarily about

369
00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:19.099
To the Lighthouse or Woolf.

370
00:13:19.100 --> 00:13:20.100
But

371
00:13:22.010 --> 00:13:23.599
what that connection called to mind,

372
00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:25.669
for me, was the idea that the kind

373
00:13:25.670 --> 00:13:27.529
of the

374
00:13:27.530 --> 00:13:29.629
cosmopolitan possibility

375
00:13:29.630 --> 00:13:31.759
also existed in,

376
00:13:31.760 --> 00:13:33.559
not only in kind of Somalia and in

377
00:13:33.560 --> 00:13:35.479
kind of political and real world

378
00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:36.859
settings but also in this modernist

379
00:13:36.860 --> 00:13:38.269
moment.

380
00:13:38.270 --> 00:13:39.649
Because these writers are people who

381
00:13:39.650 --> 00:13:41.119
mean a lot to you. Joyce and T.S.

382
00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:42.469
Eliot and Virginia Woolf.

383
00:13:42.470 --> 00:13:44.389
And I wonder if-- I wanted

384
00:13:44.390 --> 00:13:46.249
to ask you if that is

385
00:13:46.250 --> 00:13:47.749
one of the things that you see in

386
00:13:47.750 --> 00:13:48.889
them. And one of those-- these

387
00:13:48.890 --> 00:13:49.939
writers and one of the things that

388
00:13:49.940 --> 00:13:51.439
you value in them. That is that kind

389
00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:52.399
of like the cosmopolitan

390
00:13:52.400 --> 00:13:53.839
possibility. Do you see that in them

391
00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:54.840
also?

392
00:13:55.460 --> 00:13:58.339
Well, maybe subconsciously.

393
00:13:58.340 --> 00:14:00.199
Maybe. And I

394
00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:02.419
didn't think that I had

395
00:14:02.420 --> 00:14:04.039
To the Lighthouse in mind when I

396
00:14:04.040 --> 00:14:06.049
wrote Hiding in Plain Sight.

397
00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:11.089
I did teach

398
00:14:12.470 --> 00:14:14.809
To the Lighthouse a few years ago,

399
00:14:14.810 --> 00:14:17.749
but I don't think I remembered that.

400
00:14:17.750 --> 00:14:19.631
There are certain things that come

401
00:14:19.632 --> 00:14:20.632
as

402
00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:25.549
a natural

403
00:14:25.550 --> 00:14:27.889
way of responding to

404
00:14:27.890 --> 00:14:29.959
the narrative demands

405
00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:32.629
because the story demands sometimes

406
00:14:32.630 --> 00:14:34.729
that people be separated,

407
00:14:34.730 --> 00:14:36.259
that there are only two people who

408
00:14:36.260 --> 00:14:37.429
are meeting.

409
00:14:37.430 --> 00:14:39.259
Because generally speaking,

410
00:14:39.260 --> 00:14:41.149
only two people make love.

411
00:14:41.150 --> 00:14:42.979
Generally speaking, the debate is

412
00:14:42.980 --> 00:14:45.019
usually between two persons,

413
00:14:45.020 --> 00:14:47.059
and then the rest of us will

414
00:14:47.060 --> 00:14:48.169
come in and join.

415
00:14:49.670 --> 00:14:51.829
I don't think that I had that

416
00:14:51.830 --> 00:14:53.839
in mind, but I also remember,

417
00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:56.389
in fact, come to think of it,

418
00:14:56.390 --> 00:14:58.249
that in my novel, my second novel

419
00:14:58.250 --> 00:15:00.799
called Naked

420
00:15:00.800 --> 00:15:02.659
Needle, there is

421
00:15:02.660 --> 00:15:04.519
a big party which more or

422
00:15:04.520 --> 00:15:05.659
less ends the novel

423
00:15:07.100 --> 00:15:09.769
to which everybody goes, including

424
00:15:09.770 --> 00:15:11.659
the principal character who arrives

425
00:15:11.660 --> 00:15:12.919
on that day.

426
00:15:16.010 --> 00:15:17.010
But there

427
00:15:22.290 --> 00:15:24.509
is almost always,

428
00:15:24.510 --> 00:15:27.209
I find, that

429
00:15:27.210 --> 00:15:29.189
the story suggests whether there

430
00:15:29.190 --> 00:15:31.242
is a party or not a party.

431
00:15:31.243 --> 00:15:32.243
And

432
00:15:33.780 --> 00:15:36.149
because I write and rewrite

433
00:15:36.150 --> 00:15:38.069
many, many times, every

434
00:15:38.070 --> 00:15:39.959
novel that I

435
00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:41.579
commit myself to writing,

436
00:15:43.020 --> 00:15:44.729
it's very possible that in the

437
00:15:44.730 --> 00:15:46.709
earlier versions,

438
00:15:46.710 --> 00:15:47.710
there was no party.

439
00:15:48.570 --> 00:15:50.819
And it's possible that

440
00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:53.279
in the final version of the text,

441
00:15:53.280 --> 00:15:54.819
the party grows

442
00:15:58.080 --> 00:15:59.969
to such a degree

443
00:15:59.970 --> 00:16:02.279
that it dominates the entire novel.

444
00:16:02.280 --> 00:16:03.280
Yeah.

445
00:16:04.410 --> 00:16:05.789
Well, I wonder, just to kind of stay

446
00:16:05.790 --> 00:16:06.599
with this, and this is not

447
00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:07.600
necessarily to

448
00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:10.319
kind of stay with the

449
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:12.179
connection to modernist writers or

450
00:16:12.180 --> 00:16:13.109
not, although if you feel like

451
00:16:13.110 --> 00:16:14.099
talking more about that, that would

452
00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:15.100
be fine.

453
00:16:15.810 --> 00:16:17.459
But one of the things to me that

454
00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:19.439
seems like it also

455
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.599
has these

456
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:23.789
moments of these parties,

457
00:16:23.790 --> 00:16:25.049
gatherings, dinner parties, whatever

458
00:16:25.050 --> 00:16:27.059
they are, in your fiction.

459
00:16:27.060 --> 00:16:28.439
And another way in which they kind

460
00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:31.199
of dramatize this cosmopolitan

461
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:32.459
possibility that we've been talking

462
00:16:32.460 --> 00:16:34.259
about has to do with the fragility

463
00:16:34.260 --> 00:16:35.969
of the togetherness that's there.

464
00:16:35.970 --> 00:16:37.349
Right? I mean, there's a moment

465
00:16:37.350 --> 00:16:38.729
there, for example, just in Hiding

466
00:16:38.730 --> 00:16:40.319
in Plain Sight, again, like Bella,

467
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:41.549
bringing these people together at

468
00:16:41.550 --> 00:16:43.319
the end of the novel and kind of

469
00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:44.879
successfully having everybody

470
00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:45.929
interact in this way.

471
00:16:45.930 --> 00:16:47.189
It's a very fragile moment, and it's

472
00:16:47.190 --> 00:16:49.349
always in danger of falling apart.

473
00:16:49.350 --> 00:16:50.099
Exactly.

474
00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:51.179
And I wonder if this-- yes.

475
00:16:51.180 --> 00:16:53.009
So I wonder if this, too, is

476
00:16:53.010 --> 00:16:55.349
a way in which it is an accurate

477
00:16:55.350 --> 00:16:57.659
representation of

478
00:16:57.660 --> 00:16:59.039
that cosmopolitan.

479
00:16:59.040 --> 00:17:00.241
Like the real world cosmopolitan.

480
00:17:01.309 --> 00:17:03.269
Yes. Yes. But I'm

481
00:17:03.270 --> 00:17:05.399
reminded-- I mean, I'm not changing

482
00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:07.769
the subject, but I'm reminded

483
00:17:07.770 --> 00:17:09.809
of one of my favorite sayings

484
00:17:09.810 --> 00:17:11.369
from Raymond Chandler,

485
00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:14.699
who says, "When the story

486
00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:15.700
can't move,

487
00:17:17.099 --> 00:17:19.019
bring into the room a man with

488
00:17:19.020 --> 00:17:20.020
a gun."

489
00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:23.249
That'll make something happen.

490
00:17:23.250 --> 00:17:24.929
It'll make something happen because

491
00:17:24.930 --> 00:17:27.159
it'll make somebody frightened,

492
00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:29.309
like somebody very happy that

493
00:17:29.310 --> 00:17:31.139
a man with a gun has just

494
00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:32.140
walked in.

495
00:17:33.150 --> 00:17:35.009
But everyone who comes

496
00:17:35.010 --> 00:17:36.899
into the room is like a man

497
00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:38.819
with a gun because everybody

498
00:17:38.820 --> 00:17:40.079
has a history.

499
00:17:40.080 --> 00:17:41.969
And especially if they know each

500
00:17:41.970 --> 00:17:43.859
other. If people know each other,

501
00:17:43.860 --> 00:17:45.569
and if they don't know each other,

502
00:17:45.570 --> 00:17:47.429
they bring in a

503
00:17:47.430 --> 00:17:49.889
sense of foreboding.

504
00:17:49.890 --> 00:17:51.839
They bring in a sense of

505
00:17:51.840 --> 00:17:52.829
caution.

506
00:17:52.830 --> 00:17:54.359
I mean, who is this person?

507
00:17:54.360 --> 00:17:55.559
What does he want?

508
00:17:58.170 --> 00:18:00.029
And in a world

509
00:18:00.030 --> 00:18:01.859
as fragile as it is,

510
00:18:01.860 --> 00:18:02.860
even in

511
00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:08.200
Pittsburgh today,

512
00:18:10.270 --> 00:18:13.029
new people who come into a room,

513
00:18:13.030 --> 00:18:14.889
you begin to suspect them.

514
00:18:14.890 --> 00:18:16.869
You say, "Are they right-wing?

515
00:18:16.870 --> 00:18:18.099
Are they left-wing?

516
00:18:18.100 --> 00:18:19.100
Are they

517
00:18:20.170 --> 00:18:21.969
of the Republican Party, the

518
00:18:21.970 --> 00:18:24.219
Democrats, and so on and so forth?"

519
00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:25.939
And there is this continuous-- and

520
00:18:25.940 --> 00:18:27.879
the debate, obviously.

521
00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:29.739
These are things that have been said

522
00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:30.740
before, 20

523
00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:33.466
years ago, 30 years ago.

524
00:18:33.467 --> 00:18:35.679
The same stories

525
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:37.690
are being retold.

526
00:18:38.830 --> 00:18:41.169
The characters have changed,

527
00:18:41.170 --> 00:18:42.759
but the same stories are being

528
00:18:42.760 --> 00:18:43.629
retold.

529
00:18:43.630 --> 00:18:46.239
And it's the retelling of this story

530
00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.129
and the metaphors

531
00:18:48.130 --> 00:18:50.529
that are being used, the handles

532
00:18:50.530 --> 00:18:51.714
that are being distributed,

533
00:18:55.510 --> 00:18:57.549
the baton, that these

534
00:18:57.550 --> 00:18:58.599
are some of the things that

535
00:18:58.600 --> 00:19:00.879
determine the success

536
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:02.919
or lack of success of a novel.

537
00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:03.920
Yeah.

538
00:19:04.900 --> 00:19:05.919
I mean, there's also one of the

539
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:07.959
other things that is--

540
00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:09.669
and there's kind of-- we've been

541
00:19:09.670 --> 00:19:10.749
talking, I think rightly, about

542
00:19:10.750 --> 00:19:12.939
divisions along lines of

543
00:19:12.940 --> 00:19:14.410
political belief.

544
00:19:15.790 --> 00:19:18.039
One of the other kinds of

545
00:19:18.040 --> 00:19:19.989
divisions that exists

546
00:19:22.810 --> 00:19:25.929
and can make kind of togetherness

547
00:19:25.930 --> 00:19:28.089
difficult at times is generational

548
00:19:28.090 --> 00:19:29.090
divisions.

549
00:19:29.950 --> 00:19:31.779
Yes, I have quite often

550
00:19:31.780 --> 00:19:33.459
been interested in generational

551
00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:34.569
differences.

552
00:19:34.570 --> 00:19:35.570
And

553
00:19:36.910 --> 00:19:39.609
the reason is, you see,

554
00:19:39.610 --> 00:19:41.769
my father's generation

555
00:19:41.770 --> 00:19:43.959
and my generation

556
00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:45.879
are absolutely and

557
00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:47.079
totally different.

558
00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:51.789
You could not

559
00:19:51.790 --> 00:19:52.790
imagine

560
00:19:53.620 --> 00:19:56.499
that I am the son of my father.

561
00:19:56.500 --> 00:19:57.700
And the reason is

562
00:19:59.410 --> 00:20:00.700
he was semi-literate.

563
00:20:01.900 --> 00:20:04.179
He spoke English and Swahili

564
00:20:04.180 --> 00:20:06.009
and Somali, but he

565
00:20:06.010 --> 00:20:07.899
was semi-literate,

566
00:20:07.900 --> 00:20:09.759
and he could not

567
00:20:09.760 --> 00:20:11.739
sit down and write a

568
00:20:11.740 --> 00:20:13.599
letter to

569
00:20:13.600 --> 00:20:15.039
his wife.

570
00:20:15.040 --> 00:20:17.139
My mother was an

571
00:20:17.140 --> 00:20:19.029
oral poet,

572
00:20:19.030 --> 00:20:20.859
and I am as far away from

573
00:20:20.860 --> 00:20:23.139
being an oral poet

574
00:20:23.140 --> 00:20:24.550
as the moon is

575
00:20:25.840 --> 00:20:26.840
from Saturn.

576
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.859
So I am,

577
00:20:29.860 --> 00:20:32.079
therefore, a completely different

578
00:20:32.080 --> 00:20:34.269
person from what my parents

579
00:20:34.270 --> 00:20:35.199
were.

580
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:36.220
My children,

581
00:20:37.630 --> 00:20:40.449
which is a generation later,

582
00:20:40.450 --> 00:20:42.399
obviously very, very different.

583
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:44.409
They do not know Africa.

584
00:20:44.410 --> 00:20:46.449
They do not speak an

585
00:20:46.450 --> 00:20:47.979
African language.

586
00:20:47.980 --> 00:20:50.739
They are not keen on the idea.

587
00:20:50.740 --> 00:20:53.229
They are not interested

588
00:20:53.230 --> 00:20:54.189
in Africa.

589
00:20:54.190 --> 00:20:56.199
They live in California.

590
00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:58.089
And therefore, the world

591
00:20:58.090 --> 00:21:00.549
in which I reside

592
00:21:00.550 --> 00:21:02.499
is made up of all these

593
00:21:02.500 --> 00:21:04.059
contradictions.

594
00:21:04.060 --> 00:21:06.069
And you ask yourself

595
00:21:06.070 --> 00:21:07.959
the question: is it actually

596
00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:09.819
possible for people who are

597
00:21:09.820 --> 00:21:11.649
as different as my

598
00:21:11.650 --> 00:21:13.929
parents and I were

599
00:21:13.930 --> 00:21:15.819
and my children and

600
00:21:15.820 --> 00:21:16.820
myself? Is

601
00:21:18.610 --> 00:21:19.690
love possible?

602
00:21:20.800 --> 00:21:21.800
And it is.

603
00:21:22.870 --> 00:21:24.789
And that is the

604
00:21:24.790 --> 00:21:26.079
beauty of it.

605
00:21:26.080 --> 00:21:28.209
And that can only happen

606
00:21:28.210 --> 00:21:30.969
in a world of cosmopolitanism.

607
00:21:30.970 --> 00:21:32.440
And it can also

608
00:21:34.630 --> 00:21:36.639
happen in a world

609
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.229
of secularism.

610
00:21:38.230 --> 00:21:39.939
And the reason is because if

611
00:21:39.940 --> 00:21:41.889
religion walks in, my

612
00:21:41.890 --> 00:21:43.779
children having never set foot

613
00:21:43.780 --> 00:21:46.569
in a mosque or church.

614
00:21:46.570 --> 00:21:48.489
My parents spent

615
00:21:48.490 --> 00:21:50.469
a great deal of time

616
00:21:50.470 --> 00:21:51.470
praying,

617
00:21:52.390 --> 00:21:53.829
worshiping the Lord.

618
00:21:55.060 --> 00:21:56.949
I have not set

619
00:21:56.950 --> 00:21:58.809
foot in a mosque for God knows how

620
00:21:58.810 --> 00:21:59.679
long.

621
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:01.539
All these are possible

622
00:22:01.540 --> 00:22:03.729
because of that tolerance

623
00:22:03.730 --> 00:22:06.039
of differences and appreciation

624
00:22:06.040 --> 00:22:06.879
of differences.

625
00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:09.429
Obviously, my parents and I,

626
00:22:09.430 --> 00:22:11.349
I was a great friend of

627
00:22:11.350 --> 00:22:13.449
my mother's, but not my father

628
00:22:13.450 --> 00:22:15.129
because he had no sense of

629
00:22:15.130 --> 00:22:16.130
tolerance.

630
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:18.475
You've written about

631
00:22:19.930 --> 00:22:21.369
conversations you had with your

632
00:22:21.370 --> 00:22:23.409
father towards the end of his

633
00:22:23.410 --> 00:22:24.410
life, where

634
00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:26.469
there was some tension on exactly

635
00:22:26.470 --> 00:22:28.329
this issue, and exactly what you

636
00:22:28.330 --> 00:22:29.649
were describing, the kind of

637
00:22:29.650 --> 00:22:32.019
knowledge, his resistance

638
00:22:32.020 --> 00:22:34.089
to the very idea of knowledge has

639
00:22:34.090 --> 00:22:35.289
been so important to you.

640
00:22:35.290 --> 00:22:36.609
Well, exactly.

641
00:22:36.610 --> 00:22:38.469
And I wanted to

642
00:22:38.470 --> 00:22:40.329
be as different from my

643
00:22:40.330 --> 00:22:42.309
father as any son could

644
00:22:42.310 --> 00:22:44.289
be from his father.

645
00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:47.345
But I was also-- I nursed the

646
00:22:51.280 --> 00:22:53.199
idea and the dream of

647
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.059
one day becoming like my

648
00:22:55.060 --> 00:22:57.489
mother, tolerant,

649
00:22:57.490 --> 00:22:59.349
generous to others,

650
00:22:59.350 --> 00:23:01.209
listening all the time,

651
00:23:01.210 --> 00:23:03.069
waiting for advice,

652
00:23:03.070 --> 00:23:05.109
and open to a much

653
00:23:05.110 --> 00:23:06.110
larger world

654
00:23:07.450 --> 00:23:09.369
than the one in which I was born.

655
00:23:12.370 --> 00:23:14.199
I wonder about, picking

656
00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:16.029
up on the cue of your mother,

657
00:23:16.030 --> 00:23:17.709
the kind of distance you wanted to

658
00:23:17.710 --> 00:23:20.109
see from your father,

659
00:23:20.110 --> 00:23:22.509
and the kind of the

660
00:23:22.510 --> 00:23:23.889
closeness that you felt to your

661
00:23:23.890 --> 00:23:25.659
mother. One of the things, and

662
00:23:25.660 --> 00:23:27.069
others, I mentioned Somalia earlier,

663
00:23:27.070 --> 00:23:28.359
that's unmistakable in your fiction.

664
00:23:28.360 --> 00:23:30.189
Also, strong

665
00:23:30.190 --> 00:23:32.409
women characters are very important

666
00:23:32.410 --> 00:23:33.789
in your fiction.

667
00:23:33.790 --> 00:23:35.349
Is this one of the places that comes

668
00:23:35.350 --> 00:23:36.350
from - your relationship with your mother?

669
00:23:37.300 --> 00:23:39.309
It comes from the Somali tradition.

670
00:23:39.310 --> 00:23:40.359
I've written about it.

671
00:23:40.360 --> 00:23:42.429
And even if one didn't want

672
00:23:42.430 --> 00:23:43.899
to write about it, one would be

673
00:23:43.900 --> 00:23:45.879
forced to write about them.

674
00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:47.859
And the reason is I usually say

675
00:23:47.860 --> 00:23:50.289
that Somalia as a country exists

676
00:23:50.290 --> 00:23:52.509
today thanks

677
00:23:52.510 --> 00:23:54.549
to the women,

678
00:23:54.550 --> 00:23:56.649
the Somali women, who held

679
00:23:56.650 --> 00:23:58.509
homes together, put

680
00:23:58.510 --> 00:24:00.339
food on the table, despite

681
00:24:00.340 --> 00:24:02.199
all the difficulties, and

682
00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:04.209
who fought for peace, continue

683
00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:06.729
to fight for peace.

684
00:24:06.730 --> 00:24:08.979
And the men who are

685
00:24:08.980 --> 00:24:11.049
power crazy,

686
00:24:11.050 --> 00:24:13.809
mad in their ambitions

687
00:24:13.810 --> 00:24:15.249
because they think they can change

688
00:24:15.250 --> 00:24:17.259
the world or gain

689
00:24:17.260 --> 00:24:19.779
power illicitly, and

690
00:24:19.780 --> 00:24:20.769
so on and so forth.

691
00:24:20.770 --> 00:24:23.289
And the reason why the war continues

692
00:24:23.290 --> 00:24:25.269
is because of these men.

693
00:24:25.270 --> 00:24:27.190
Men, whether they are even

694
00:24:28.540 --> 00:24:30.909
not very religious

695
00:24:30.910 --> 00:24:31.910
minded. Men

696
00:24:34.900 --> 00:24:36.849
who crave power,

697
00:24:36.850 --> 00:24:38.979
hungry for it.

698
00:24:38.980 --> 00:24:40.839
The women are the ones

699
00:24:40.840 --> 00:24:42.549
who run the families.

700
00:24:42.550 --> 00:24:44.619
And when one person

701
00:24:44.620 --> 00:24:46.689
is wounded, or the entire

702
00:24:46.690 --> 00:24:48.579
community is injured, or

703
00:24:48.580 --> 00:24:50.909
something terrible happens,

704
00:24:50.910 --> 00:24:53.099
they're the ones who work on the

705
00:24:53.100 --> 00:24:54.150
healing process.

706
00:24:58.440 --> 00:24:59.440
The respect

707
00:25:02.610 --> 00:25:04.319
that you clearly have for women, the

708
00:25:04.320 --> 00:25:06.299
role they've played in Somalia, the

709
00:25:06.300 --> 00:25:07.300
important

710
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:09.449
women characters that are in your

711
00:25:09.450 --> 00:25:10.450
fiction.

712
00:25:10.950 --> 00:25:12.899
I have

713
00:25:12.900 --> 00:25:14.579
seen-- you've talked about kind of

714
00:25:14.580 --> 00:25:16.049
patriarchy being a form of

715
00:25:16.050 --> 00:25:18.029
dictatorship in

716
00:25:18.030 --> 00:25:19.349
your fiction. And you're reacting

717
00:25:19.350 --> 00:25:20.339
against that.

718
00:25:20.340 --> 00:25:22.289
What I see, though,

719
00:25:22.290 --> 00:25:24.449
is not only

720
00:25:24.450 --> 00:25:26.399
a kind of view

721
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.349
promoting the idea

722
00:25:28.350 --> 00:25:29.549
of the strength of women and the

723
00:25:29.550 --> 00:25:30.749
importance of women but also

724
00:25:30.750 --> 00:25:31.750
imagining the

725
00:25:32.910 --> 00:25:34.799
possibility that gender itself

726
00:25:34.800 --> 00:25:36.449
would be more fluid.

727
00:25:36.450 --> 00:25:37.979
And this comes in for-- you can

728
00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:39.599
imagine characters like Askar, for

729
00:25:39.600 --> 00:25:40.414
example, in Maps.

730
00:25:40.415 --> 00:25:41.415
The

731
00:25:43.620 --> 00:25:45.929
imagination that he has, that

732
00:25:45.930 --> 00:25:47.369
he's part of Misra, that he

733
00:25:47.370 --> 00:25:48.183
menstruates, for example.

734
00:25:48.184 --> 00:25:50.519
And these kinds of ways

735
00:25:50.520 --> 00:25:52.439
of having kind of like male

736
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:54.239
and female go back and forth between

737
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:56.489
each other rather than the--

738
00:25:56.490 --> 00:25:57.899
The empathy that actually created

739
00:25:57.900 --> 00:25:59.339
him. And the reason is because he

740
00:25:59.340 --> 00:26:02.039
sees that the men

741
00:26:02.040 --> 00:26:03.899
with whom he is

742
00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:07.469
surrounded are untrustworthy,

743
00:26:07.470 --> 00:26:08.470
selfish. Their

744
00:26:11.970 --> 00:26:12.970
self-aggrandizement,

745
00:26:15.180 --> 00:26:16.180
unacceptable.

746
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:19.619
Their acceptance of

747
00:26:19.620 --> 00:26:20.620
differences, also

748
00:26:21.450 --> 00:26:22.450
unvailable.

749
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.609
Women, therefore, suggest

750
00:26:26.610 --> 00:26:29.249
a world that is

751
00:26:29.250 --> 00:26:30.567
open with possibilities.

752
00:26:32.550 --> 00:26:33.550
Men suffer

753
00:26:36.390 --> 00:26:38.339
from closed minds in

754
00:26:38.340 --> 00:26:39.389
Somalia.

755
00:26:39.390 --> 00:26:40.889
And I'm quite sure it's the same in

756
00:26:40.890 --> 00:26:42.599
many parts of the world.

757
00:26:42.600 --> 00:26:44.520
Until they realize

758
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:47.400
the women in them,

759
00:26:48.840 --> 00:26:49.840
as well as the men

760
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:53.159
being who they are.

761
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:54.959
And these are some of the things--

762
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:55.960
the problem. I

763
00:26:59.100 --> 00:27:01.199
usually say any

764
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:03.659
man who cannot accept

765
00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:05.519
the woman in him,

766
00:27:05.520 --> 00:27:07.184
any man who doesn't have that

767
00:27:07.185 --> 00:27:08.185
continuous

768
00:27:11.230 --> 00:27:12.249
empathy

769
00:27:14.320 --> 00:27:15.320
towards women, they

770
00:27:17.260 --> 00:27:18.260
need to be hospitalized.

771
00:27:19.510 --> 00:27:20.799
There's something wrong with them.

772
00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:22.689
There's something lacking in them.

773
00:27:22.690 --> 00:27:24.609
Their humanity is

774
00:27:24.610 --> 00:27:26.679
sort of damaged.

775
00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:27.680
Yeah.

776
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:29.769
I'm reminded we talked about kind of

777
00:27:29.770 --> 00:27:30.969
generations and moved to talking

778
00:27:30.970 --> 00:27:31.749
about women.

779
00:27:31.750 --> 00:27:33.219
I'm reminded of these kinds of--

780
00:27:33.220 --> 00:27:35.319
When the generations

781
00:27:35.320 --> 00:27:37.089
come back-- may I?

782
00:27:37.090 --> 00:27:38.090
If I come back to it.

783
00:27:40.150 --> 00:27:42.159
In a couple of the novels,

784
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:43.160
in Close Sesame

785
00:27:44.380 --> 00:27:46.359
as well as in

786
00:27:46.360 --> 00:27:47.360
Secrets,

787
00:27:49.060 --> 00:27:52.029
there are generational differences,

788
00:27:52.030 --> 00:27:54.279
and I've always been fascinated

789
00:27:54.280 --> 00:27:56.579
by the idea of the grandfather

790
00:27:56.580 --> 00:27:57.609
and the grandchild.

791
00:28:00.450 --> 00:28:02.939
With the absence of tension,

792
00:28:02.940 --> 00:28:04.980
direct paternal tension,

793
00:28:06.120 --> 00:28:08.219
because between you and your father,

794
00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:10.139
between me and my father,

795
00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:11.310
there is always tension

796
00:28:12.810 --> 00:28:14.999
because the father wants to mold

797
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.849
you into

798
00:28:17.850 --> 00:28:20.189
someone whom he wants

799
00:28:20.190 --> 00:28:21.190
you to become.

800
00:28:23.550 --> 00:28:25.319
With the grandfather, there is

801
00:28:25.320 --> 00:28:26.969
seldom tension.

802
00:28:26.970 --> 00:28:28.799
And therefore, wisdom,

803
00:28:28.800 --> 00:28:30.719
usually in my fiction,

804
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:33.479
is passed from the grandchild

805
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:34.830
to the grandson.

806
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:37.119
Yeah. The grandfather to the-- yeah, yeah.

807
00:28:37.890 --> 00:28:38.999
To the granddaughter.

808
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:41.279
Because of the absence of that one.

809
00:28:41.280 --> 00:28:43.169
And because, again, the idea

810
00:28:43.170 --> 00:28:45.119
of tolerance, the idea of

811
00:28:45.120 --> 00:28:46.049
listening.

812
00:28:46.050 --> 00:28:47.789
You see, the big tension between men

813
00:28:47.790 --> 00:28:49.809
and women, usually whenever

814
00:28:51.690 --> 00:28:53.432
bad things happen and husband and

815
00:28:53.433 --> 00:28:54.433
wife are arguing back

816
00:28:55.500 --> 00:28:57.449
and forth, the word

817
00:28:57.450 --> 00:29:00.489
that many women continuously

818
00:29:00.490 --> 00:29:02.339
use is listen

819
00:29:02.340 --> 00:29:04.409
or you do not listen to me.

820
00:29:04.410 --> 00:29:07.529
You have not heard what I said.

821
00:29:07.530 --> 00:29:09.359
Whereas, in

822
00:29:09.360 --> 00:29:11.279
the absence of such

823
00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:14.129
tension, the grandfather

824
00:29:14.130 --> 00:29:16.289
and the grandchild listen

825
00:29:16.290 --> 00:29:18.779
to each other, and therefore, wisdom

826
00:29:18.780 --> 00:29:19.919
is parted.

827
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:21.869
And the child, who

828
00:29:21.870 --> 00:29:23.309
is receiving the wisdom from the

829
00:29:23.310 --> 00:29:25.439
grandfather, is well

830
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:27.719
aware of how much

831
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:29.549
the child is listening

832
00:29:29.550 --> 00:29:30.959
to the wisdom.

833
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.939
And unless you listen,

834
00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:34.109
there is no wisdom.

835
00:29:34.110 --> 00:29:35.999
And unless you listen,

836
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.250
there is no peace in the household.

837
00:29:39.730 --> 00:29:41.819
I was thinking of Close Sesame

838
00:29:41.820 --> 00:29:43.478
earlier, the novel you brought up,

839
00:29:43.479 --> 00:29:45.539
when I was asking this question

840
00:29:45.540 --> 00:29:46.649
about generations because the main

841
00:29:46.650 --> 00:29:48.479
character there

842
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:50.129
is a devout Muslim.

843
00:29:50.130 --> 00:29:51.449
His children are very different from

844
00:29:51.450 --> 00:29:52.649
him, much like we're talking about

845
00:29:52.650 --> 00:29:54.809
here. He doesn't necessarily seem

846
00:29:54.810 --> 00:29:55.810
to think

847
00:29:57.390 --> 00:29:59.459
that's altogether

848
00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:01.259
a terrible thing, though.

849
00:30:01.260 --> 00:30:03.659
No. Because he's able to tolerate

850
00:30:03.660 --> 00:30:05.969
his-- Remember, he'd spent

851
00:30:05.970 --> 00:30:07.770
a number of years in detention.

852
00:30:09.060 --> 00:30:10.470
First in the Italian prisons

853
00:30:12.570 --> 00:30:14.159
and then in the British.

854
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:15.600
And then in

855
00:30:16.650 --> 00:30:18.060
Siad Barre's Somalia. And therefore,

856
00:30:19.080 --> 00:30:20.600
he knows that there

857
00:30:22.320 --> 00:30:24.449
is no benefit of locking people

858
00:30:24.450 --> 00:30:26.909
up or there is no

859
00:30:26.910 --> 00:30:28.769
benefit in thinking

860
00:30:28.770 --> 00:30:30.629
that you can silence somebody

861
00:30:30.630 --> 00:30:32.609
by giving them instruction to order

862
00:30:32.610 --> 00:30:34.289
and saying, "You can't talk like

863
00:30:34.290 --> 00:30:36.389
that." So he allows people

864
00:30:36.390 --> 00:30:37.649
to speak their minds.

865
00:30:37.650 --> 00:30:39.719
And when you are allowed to speak

866
00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:41.939
your mind, you become a person,

867
00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:44.159
fully fledged and therefore

868
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:45.160
complete.

869
00:30:46.080 --> 00:30:47.399
I mean, he's a remarkable character

870
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:48.299
for that quality, I think.

871
00:30:48.300 --> 00:30:50.549
It makes me very sad

872
00:30:50.550 --> 00:30:52.769
that not many

873
00:30:52.770 --> 00:30:54.689
readers even know

874
00:30:54.690 --> 00:30:55.690
that the novel

875
00:30:57.120 --> 00:30:58.120
Close Sesame exists.

876
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:00.599
If we get a lot of listeners to this

877
00:31:00.600 --> 00:31:01.600
podcast, maybe we

878
00:31:02.580 --> 00:31:03.719
can get a few more.

879
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:04.720
We'll see about that.

880
00:31:07.560 --> 00:31:09.449
I want to ask you one other

881
00:31:09.450 --> 00:31:12.059
kind of like big question about your

882
00:31:12.060 --> 00:31:13.199
fiction.

883
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:15.389
And I want to go back to

884
00:31:15.390 --> 00:31:16.920
your first novel,

885
00:31:18.270 --> 00:31:19.949
From A Crooked Rib, which was

886
00:31:19.950 --> 00:31:21.689
published in 1970.

887
00:31:21.690 --> 00:31:23.879
That novel is set

888
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:26.219
in the months before Somalia's

889
00:31:26.220 --> 00:31:27.029
independence.

890
00:31:27.030 --> 00:31:29.159
Somalia came into existence

891
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:30.282
right after the colonial period in

892
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:33.149
1960.

893
00:31:33.150 --> 00:31:33.839
As a nation.

894
00:31:33.840 --> 00:31:34.840
As a nation, yes.

895
00:31:36.630 --> 00:31:38.719
The second novel takes place in 1969

896
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:40.559
to 1972, roughly.

897
00:31:40.560 --> 00:31:41.699
And then your other fiction has

898
00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:43.889
explored so much of the period

899
00:31:43.890 --> 00:31:45.809
between then and now.

900
00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:48.960
Is it a meaningful

901
00:31:50.190 --> 00:31:52.019
way for you to look at your

902
00:31:52.020 --> 00:31:53.939
body of work and

903
00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:55.499
to think of it as almost a

904
00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:57.329
counter-story to the one that

905
00:31:57.330 --> 00:31:58.919
has been introduced by the logic of

906
00:31:58.920 --> 00:31:59.920
the nation-state?

907
00:32:00.390 --> 00:32:02.279
As an alternative story.

908
00:32:02.280 --> 00:32:04.499
An alternative way of looking

909
00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:05.500
at Somalia.

910
00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:09.029
And the reason is, I

911
00:32:09.030 --> 00:32:10.030
think,

912
00:32:11.850 --> 00:32:13.589
because people are living these

913
00:32:13.590 --> 00:32:15.719
lives with little

914
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:17.879
contemplation, they

915
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:20.789
are living from crisis to crisis,

916
00:32:20.790 --> 00:32:22.169
and therefore they haven't had the

917
00:32:22.170 --> 00:32:23.969
time to think.

918
00:32:23.970 --> 00:32:25.679
America is now living through a

919
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:27.509
crisis moment,

920
00:32:27.510 --> 00:32:30.419
and Americans are not thinking.

921
00:32:30.420 --> 00:32:32.339
And you would actually find lots

922
00:32:32.340 --> 00:32:34.739
and lots of people unable

923
00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:36.749
to sit down and

924
00:32:36.750 --> 00:32:37.750
consider

925
00:32:39.300 --> 00:32:41.819
the possibilities that are there.

926
00:32:41.820 --> 00:32:43.799
And the reason is because

927
00:32:43.800 --> 00:32:45.719
they're reeling from one crisis

928
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:47.639
to another, and they have no

929
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:50.069
idea in which direction

930
00:32:50.070 --> 00:32:51.959
to move. And that is

931
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:53.999
what Somalia has been because from

932
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:55.000
independence,

933
00:32:57.510 --> 00:32:58.521
three or four years after--

934
00:32:59.580 --> 00:33:01.439
let's say nine years

935
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:03.359
of independence, there was

936
00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:05.339
a military coup, and then

937
00:33:05.340 --> 00:33:07.319
there was a dictatorship.

938
00:33:07.320 --> 00:33:09.239
And then, from then on, there was

939
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:10.529
a civil war.

940
00:33:10.530 --> 00:33:12.179
And therefore, there is no

941
00:33:13.350 --> 00:33:15.509
moment in which people can

942
00:33:15.510 --> 00:33:17.489
reflect, can

943
00:33:17.490 --> 00:33:20.159
have the peace of mind to reflect,

944
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:22.109
and say, "What are we doing

945
00:33:22.110 --> 00:33:24.059
to ourselves?" America

946
00:33:24.060 --> 00:33:25.979
is going through that moment, and

947
00:33:25.980 --> 00:33:27.809
the culmination of the

948
00:33:27.810 --> 00:33:29.909
crises point in America

949
00:33:29.910 --> 00:33:30.954
is what happened in-- what

950
00:33:32.430 --> 00:33:34.619
happens every day, literally

951
00:33:34.620 --> 00:33:36.239
in America.

952
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:37.440
Thanks to your

953
00:33:38.790 --> 00:33:40.391
Make America Great president.

954
00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:42.960
Yeah.

955
00:33:45.840 --> 00:33:47.069
I want to ask you-- this is kind of

956
00:33:47.070 --> 00:33:48.690
connected, I think, to the

957
00:33:50.130 --> 00:33:51.899
thread to this conversation we're

958
00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:54.389
having about cosmopolitanism.

959
00:33:54.390 --> 00:33:55.499
You're here in Pittsburgh.

960
00:33:55.500 --> 00:33:57.179
You're reading tonight at City of

961
00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:58.559
Asylum on the North Side.

962
00:33:59.910 --> 00:34:01.769
City of Asylum

963
00:34:01.770 --> 00:34:03.989
is a space that was founded

964
00:34:03.990 --> 00:34:06.119
by Henry Reese and Diane Samuels

965
00:34:06.120 --> 00:34:07.649
after they heard your friend Salman

966
00:34:07.650 --> 00:34:10.259
Rushdie speak in 1997

967
00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:11.849
about cities of refuge and cities of

968
00:34:11.850 --> 00:34:13.468
asylum and how important that had

969
00:34:13.469 --> 00:34:15.059
been to him.

970
00:34:15.060 --> 00:34:16.948
I wonder if you can say a

971
00:34:16.949 --> 00:34:18.839
little bit about

972
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:20.698
the role that spaces like

973
00:34:20.699 --> 00:34:22.170
this, like city of asylum,

974
00:34:23.290 --> 00:34:26.039
that support writers in exile

975
00:34:26.040 --> 00:34:28.049
and things, and how important

976
00:34:28.050 --> 00:34:29.638
have institutions in spaces like

977
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:31.499
that been to you in your career in

978
00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:32.500
supporting your writing?

979
00:34:33.600 --> 00:34:34.600
Well,

980
00:34:35.610 --> 00:34:37.888
my circumstances have always been

981
00:34:37.889 --> 00:34:39.839
different. I've never been

982
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:41.309
part of a city of asylum.

983
00:34:43.530 --> 00:34:45.388
I've never been given

984
00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:46.439
a refuge.

985
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:48.002
In fact, I was saying to someone

986
00:34:51.090 --> 00:34:52.919
who asked me to apply for a

987
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:54.959
grant, and I said, "I've never

988
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:56.549
applied for a grant in my whole

989
00:34:56.550 --> 00:34:58.619
life." I have worked very,

990
00:34:58.620 --> 00:34:59.909
very hard. I thought.

991
00:34:59.910 --> 00:35:01.799
I did all kinds of things.

992
00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:03.659
I slaved away

993
00:35:03.660 --> 00:35:05.609
writing for newspapers

994
00:35:05.610 --> 00:35:08.789
or even working for a newspaper.

995
00:35:08.790 --> 00:35:11.609
But City of Asylum is usually

996
00:35:12.870 --> 00:35:14.010
the good thing

997
00:35:15.750 --> 00:35:18.389
and the thing to give to writers

998
00:35:18.390 --> 00:35:19.390
in exile

999
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:25.499
if they need a year or two

1000
00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:27.419
to recover from

1001
00:35:27.420 --> 00:35:28.439
what they have been through

1002
00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:32.070
until they find their feet.

1003
00:35:33.330 --> 00:35:35.729
But this is not an alternative

1004
00:35:35.730 --> 00:35:38.279
for forever, a refugee,

1005
00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:40.139
forever an exile,

1006
00:35:40.140 --> 00:35:42.539
in the sense that I would say

1007
00:35:42.540 --> 00:35:44.369
that when writers come,

1008
00:35:44.370 --> 00:35:46.409
and you give them two years,

1009
00:35:46.410 --> 00:35:48.419
they have to be able to stand

1010
00:35:48.420 --> 00:35:49.420
on their own

1011
00:35:51.660 --> 00:35:53.009
feet.

1012
00:35:53.010 --> 00:35:54.899
And I also think it's very,

1013
00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:58.049
very important for

1014
00:35:58.050 --> 00:35:59.909
the first two years of

1015
00:35:59.910 --> 00:36:02.219
a writer living in a city of asylum

1016
00:36:03.720 --> 00:36:05.549
to be shown how to

1017
00:36:05.550 --> 00:36:06.550
become self-reliant,

1018
00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:09.280
self-independent.

1019
00:36:11.370 --> 00:36:12.810
And then, if possible,

1020
00:36:13.950 --> 00:36:16.109
if the writer comes from, say,

1021
00:36:16.110 --> 00:36:17.110
Somalia,

1022
00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:20.850
to make sure that

1023
00:36:21.990 --> 00:36:24.359
even after the two years, after

1024
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:26.489
the first year or two years,

1025
00:36:26.490 --> 00:36:28.799
they should be able to go back

1026
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:31.499
to a convenient

1027
00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:32.500
setup

1028
00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:35.309
in which they

1029
00:36:35.310 --> 00:36:36.310
receive a fountain

1030
00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:43.159
of inspiration

1031
00:36:43.160 --> 00:36:45.079
from people similar

1032
00:36:45.080 --> 00:36:46.080
to themselves.

1033
00:36:47.790 --> 00:36:49.109
Because it's very difficult to

1034
00:36:49.110 --> 00:36:50.110
integrate

1035
00:36:51.060 --> 00:36:52.919
into a country with which you're

1036
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:53.920
not familiar.

1037
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:56.969
In other words, let's

1038
00:36:56.970 --> 00:36:59.039
imagine an Afghani writer

1039
00:36:59.040 --> 00:37:01.349
comes here, doesn't speak

1040
00:37:01.350 --> 00:37:03.629
the English language very well,

1041
00:37:03.630 --> 00:37:04.952
and then finds himself coping

1042
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:08.669
with the language for the first two

1043
00:37:08.670 --> 00:37:09.689
years.

1044
00:37:09.690 --> 00:37:10.700
And then after that,

1045
00:37:11.730 --> 00:37:13.709
he has to face himself.

1046
00:37:13.710 --> 00:37:14.710
Whereas

1047
00:37:15.990 --> 00:37:18.119
if there

1048
00:37:18.120 --> 00:37:20.729
is preparedness

1049
00:37:20.730 --> 00:37:22.979
for a third year to help

1050
00:37:22.980 --> 00:37:25.049
in which to integrate

1051
00:37:25.050 --> 00:37:27.239
into a community which understands

1052
00:37:27.240 --> 00:37:29.519
them, which gives their life

1053
00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:30.520
purpose.

1054
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:32.849
Because that's what you need.

1055
00:37:32.850 --> 00:37:34.709
A writer cannot write

1056
00:37:34.710 --> 00:37:36.839
unless something

1057
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:38.669
gives their life of purpose.

1058
00:37:38.670 --> 00:37:40.619
And then they say to themselves--

1059
00:37:40.620 --> 00:37:42.179
because every morning when you wake

1060
00:37:42.180 --> 00:37:44.009
up, and you write, you say,

1061
00:37:44.010 --> 00:37:46.139
"Why am I writing this?

1062
00:37:46.140 --> 00:37:48.029
How important is this

1063
00:37:48.030 --> 00:37:49.979
writing that I am engaged

1064
00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:51.809
in?" And unless you do

1065
00:37:51.810 --> 00:37:53.879
something like that for

1066
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:55.799
the author in the city

1067
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:56.800
of asylum-- there

1068
00:38:00.120 --> 00:38:01.120
are some people

1069
00:38:03.120 --> 00:38:04.769
who never benefit from being in

1070
00:38:04.770 --> 00:38:05.639
exile.

1071
00:38:05.640 --> 00:38:07.619
I was very, very lucky

1072
00:38:07.620 --> 00:38:09.689
that when I went into voluntary

1073
00:38:09.690 --> 00:38:10.690
exile,

1074
00:38:11.940 --> 00:38:13.799
I had $150 in my

1075
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:15.629
pocket and

1076
00:38:15.630 --> 00:38:18.060
was living in a city called Trieste.

1077
00:38:19.110 --> 00:38:21.119
I didn't know anyone,

1078
00:38:21.120 --> 00:38:23.219
and I had to somehow cope

1079
00:38:23.220 --> 00:38:26.159
and find ways of surviving.

1080
00:38:26.160 --> 00:38:27.510
And then, after a few years,

1081
00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:30.959
I managed to stand

1082
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:32.459
on my own feet.

1083
00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:34.679
And then being in exile

1084
00:38:34.680 --> 00:38:36.569
helped me because

1085
00:38:36.570 --> 00:38:38.969
I asked myself the question, why

1086
00:38:38.970 --> 00:38:39.970
am I

1087
00:38:41.010 --> 00:38:43.199
furthest away from home, from

1088
00:38:43.200 --> 00:38:45.029
my people, from the

1089
00:38:45.030 --> 00:38:46.679
people I knew with whom I went to

1090
00:38:46.680 --> 00:38:47.729
school?

1091
00:38:47.730 --> 00:38:49.559
Because I wrote

1092
00:38:49.560 --> 00:38:50.759
a book.

1093
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:51.809
A Naked Needle.

1094
00:38:51.810 --> 00:38:52.799
This is why-- yeah.

1095
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:53.639
I should have kind of probably

1096
00:38:53.640 --> 00:38:55.529
prefaced this question by saying

1097
00:38:55.530 --> 00:38:56.819
your A Naked Needle, which you

1098
00:38:56.820 --> 00:38:58.709
published in 1976-- this

1099
00:38:58.710 --> 00:39:00.059
is when you've written about this.

1100
00:39:00.060 --> 00:39:01.139
You called home, and your brother

1101
00:39:01.140 --> 00:39:02.499
said you shouldn't come home.

1102
00:39:02.500 --> 00:39:02.979
Exactly.

1103
00:39:02.980 --> 00:39:04.139
There were death threats.

1104
00:39:04.140 --> 00:39:05.140
After

1105
00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:08.489
the book, following

1106
00:39:08.490 --> 00:39:11.159
A Naked Needle, after writing

1107
00:39:11.160 --> 00:39:13.349
Sweet and Sour Milk, I was sentenced

1108
00:39:13.350 --> 00:39:14.159
to death.

1109
00:39:14.160 --> 00:39:16.079
Yeah. So you see, I went from

1110
00:39:16.080 --> 00:39:17.939
being a person who is

1111
00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:20.339
in voluntary exile to being

1112
00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:22.529
a person and the sentence of death.

1113
00:39:22.530 --> 00:39:25.079
And both these concentrate

1114
00:39:25.080 --> 00:39:27.089
in my mind because I kept

1115
00:39:27.090 --> 00:39:29.459
saying to myself every morning

1116
00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:31.409
when I was writing,

1117
00:39:31.410 --> 00:39:33.359
"Why am I away?

1118
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:35.939
Why am I writing this?"

1119
00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:38.489
And it meant that I was writing

1120
00:39:38.490 --> 00:39:41.399
for a purpose bigger than myself.

1121
00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:43.289
I was writing to keep

1122
00:39:43.290 --> 00:39:44.489
that country alive.

1123
00:39:44.490 --> 00:39:46.679
I was writing to remember

1124
00:39:46.680 --> 00:39:48.449
where I came from.

1125
00:39:48.450 --> 00:39:50.549
And despite living in many different

1126
00:39:50.550 --> 00:39:52.499
countries, despite all

1127
00:39:52.500 --> 00:39:54.479
the other passports, I

1128
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:56.309
am always a Somali.

1129
00:39:56.310 --> 00:39:58.169
And everyone refers to me

1130
00:39:58.170 --> 00:39:59.272
as a Somali novelist.

1131
00:40:02.190 --> 00:40:04.109
Yeah. So this question about exile,

1132
00:40:04.110 --> 00:40:05.639
maybe I can ask you one other kind

1133
00:40:05.640 --> 00:40:06.640
of question about

1134
00:40:07.470 --> 00:40:08.309
this. It's a little bit of a

1135
00:40:08.310 --> 00:40:09.869
personal question, but I hope you

1136
00:40:09.870 --> 00:40:10.870
don't mind.

1137
00:40:13.020 --> 00:40:14.999
For me someone I've read a lot

1138
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:16.979
of, who's written a lot about exile

1139
00:40:16.980 --> 00:40:17.939
and used it as an important

1140
00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:19.709
condition in his writing life, is

1141
00:40:19.710 --> 00:40:20.710
Edward Said.

1142
00:40:22.290 --> 00:40:24.269
And I think for him, along with

1143
00:40:24.270 --> 00:40:26.339
it being an enabling

1144
00:40:26.340 --> 00:40:28.169
condition, I think maybe in

1145
00:40:28.170 --> 00:40:29.789
some of the ways that you just

1146
00:40:29.790 --> 00:40:30.790
described it for you,

1147
00:40:32.130 --> 00:40:33.629
it also produced a kind of a

1148
00:40:33.630 --> 00:40:35.399
constant sense of restlessness.

1149
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:36.689
And he wrote in his memoir about

1150
00:40:36.690 --> 00:40:37.979
being kind of unable to have any

1151
00:40:37.980 --> 00:40:39.899
sense of cumulative achievement

1152
00:40:39.900 --> 00:40:41.429
or something like that, and I kind

1153
00:40:41.430 --> 00:40:43.499
of connect that for him with that

1154
00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:44.519
sense of exile.

1155
00:40:44.520 --> 00:40:45.779
And I wonder if that sounds familiar

1156
00:40:45.780 --> 00:40:47.609
to you at all or how you

1157
00:40:47.610 --> 00:40:48.579
react to it.

1158
00:40:48.580 --> 00:40:50.489
Well, what Edward

1159
00:40:50.490 --> 00:40:52.949
and I shared,

1160
00:40:52.950 --> 00:40:54.869
and with many of the people who are

1161
00:40:54.870 --> 00:40:57.000
in cities of exile do not have,

1162
00:40:58.710 --> 00:41:00.659
is that Edward and I-- Edward

1163
00:41:00.660 --> 00:41:03.179
because he was a very famous

1164
00:41:03.180 --> 00:41:04.180
professor,

1165
00:41:05.640 --> 00:41:07.589
I because I work very hard

1166
00:41:07.590 --> 00:41:09.599
and occasionally teach and therefore

1167
00:41:09.600 --> 00:41:11.579
have enough to live on.

1168
00:41:11.580 --> 00:41:13.649
And my demands have fewer

1169
00:41:13.650 --> 00:41:15.569
than many other people because

1170
00:41:15.570 --> 00:41:16.570
of being in exile and

1171
00:41:17.700 --> 00:41:19.859
among strangers for

1172
00:41:19.860 --> 00:41:20.669
much of my life.

1173
00:41:20.670 --> 00:41:22.290
Strangers would become friends.

1174
00:41:24.720 --> 00:41:26.729
But when you are not

1175
00:41:26.730 --> 00:41:28.679
quite sure that you can

1176
00:41:28.680 --> 00:41:30.809
live economically

1177
00:41:30.810 --> 00:41:32.520
in an independent mode,

1178
00:41:34.860 --> 00:41:37.139
in the case of many of the writers

1179
00:41:37.140 --> 00:41:39.389
that we're talking about,

1180
00:41:39.390 --> 00:41:40.919
the story becomes different,

1181
00:41:42.270 --> 00:41:44.579
you see, because

1182
00:41:44.580 --> 00:41:46.559
anywhere in the world that I go

1183
00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:48.449
to, I could actually come

1184
00:41:48.450 --> 00:41:50.339
to the States and say, "I want

1185
00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:52.319
to live here because I can

1186
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:54.239
afford to live and pay

1187
00:41:54.240 --> 00:41:56.129
for my rent and live

1188
00:41:56.130 --> 00:41:58.409
here comfortably, and therefore

1189
00:41:58.410 --> 00:42:00.070
I wouldn't be in exile."

1190
00:42:01.140 --> 00:42:02.140
Yes, that wasn't the case for you

1191
00:42:03.060 --> 00:42:04.379
when you went into voluntary exile.

1192
00:42:04.380 --> 00:42:05.597
You had to figure things out, and

1193
00:42:05.598 --> 00:42:06.598
yeah.

1194
00:42:06.989 --> 00:42:08.759
Yes. Yes. Well, after about eight or

1195
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:10.619
nine years, I was able to

1196
00:42:10.620 --> 00:42:12.539
then go and

1197
00:42:12.540 --> 00:42:14.609
do this. And then the harder work

1198
00:42:14.610 --> 00:42:15.610
that you do

1199
00:42:16.530 --> 00:42:18.839
and the more books that you publish,

1200
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:20.729
and the more successful your writing

1201
00:42:20.730 --> 00:42:22.559
is, the less

1202
00:42:22.560 --> 00:42:25.109
you are considered to be an exile.

1203
00:42:25.110 --> 00:42:26.939
And the reason is because

1204
00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:28.829
other people would say to you,

1205
00:42:28.830 --> 00:42:31.019
"My house is open to you."

1206
00:42:31.020 --> 00:42:32.969
The exile, the person who

1207
00:42:32.970 --> 00:42:35.069
is living in that city

1208
00:42:35.070 --> 00:42:37.409
of asylum housing,

1209
00:42:37.410 --> 00:42:39.419
is not likely to be invited

1210
00:42:39.420 --> 00:42:41.429
to as many houses as I'm invited

1211
00:42:41.430 --> 00:42:42.924
to because I have published other

1212
00:42:42.925 --> 00:42:43.925
books.

1213
00:42:45.060 --> 00:42:47.040
Books gain you friendship.

1214
00:42:48.090 --> 00:42:50.399
They make friends for you.

1215
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:52.259
Obviously, they make enemies, too,

1216
00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:54.599
but I'm saying they make more

1217
00:42:54.600 --> 00:42:55.709
friends.

1218
00:42:55.710 --> 00:42:57.539
And then you can get grants,

1219
00:42:57.540 --> 00:43:00.479
you get jobs at universities,

1220
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:02.520
and you can

1221
00:43:03.810 --> 00:43:05.729
weaponize your

1222
00:43:05.730 --> 00:43:06.809
exile.

1223
00:43:06.810 --> 00:43:08.459
Whereas these people don't have that

1224
00:43:08.460 --> 00:43:10.529
possibility. And that one

1225
00:43:10.530 --> 00:43:12.509
must always keep in mind

1226
00:43:12.510 --> 00:43:14.519
when talking about exile, let's

1227
00:43:14.520 --> 00:43:15.618
say, about my situation and

1228
00:43:17.370 --> 00:43:19.589
about the situation-- and now,

1229
00:43:19.590 --> 00:43:21.449
although I live in Cape Town, I go

1230
00:43:21.450 --> 00:43:23.819
to Somalia quite a lot.

1231
00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:25.289
And the reason is because the

1232
00:43:26.850 --> 00:43:27.850
dangers, the

1233
00:43:28.710 --> 00:43:30.539
fact that the government is no

1234
00:43:30.540 --> 00:43:32.549
longer interested in

1235
00:43:32.550 --> 00:43:34.649
locking me up or sentence

1236
00:43:34.650 --> 00:43:36.689
me to death, that

1237
00:43:36.690 --> 00:43:38.639
has made it possible

1238
00:43:38.640 --> 00:43:40.439
for me to go back to Somalia

1239
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:41.399
whenever I can.

1240
00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:43.679
Although, I'm under sentence of

1241
00:43:43.680 --> 00:43:46.049
death in so far the

1242
00:43:46.050 --> 00:43:47.909
Shabaab and these terrorist

1243
00:43:47.910 --> 00:43:49.889
organizations are concerned.

1244
00:43:49.890 --> 00:43:52.349
So we have to

1245
00:43:52.350 --> 00:43:54.269
be understanding when it

1246
00:43:54.270 --> 00:43:56.129
comes to exiles

1247
00:43:56.130 --> 00:43:57.130
without economy.

1248
00:43:58.110 --> 00:44:00.719
The ones who have no pocket money.

1249
00:44:00.720 --> 00:44:01.619
Yeah.

1250
00:44:01.620 --> 00:44:03.839
Yeah. And you have

1251
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:06.239
written about refugees,

1252
00:44:06.240 --> 00:44:08.219
and you have a nonfiction book about

1253
00:44:08.220 --> 00:44:09.630
Somali refugees.

1254
00:44:11.430 --> 00:44:13.349
Recently in your-- so

1255
00:44:13.350 --> 00:44:14.579
in Hiding in Plain Sight and then

1256
00:44:14.580 --> 00:44:16.139
also in the novel that will come out

1257
00:44:16.140 --> 00:44:18.149
soon, too, you've

1258
00:44:18.150 --> 00:44:19.319
switched your focus a little bit.

1259
00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:21.149
It seems to be on the Somalis

1260
00:44:21.150 --> 00:44:22.800
outside of Somalia as well.

1261
00:44:25.620 --> 00:44:27.959
Is this connected to your

1262
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:30.119
interest in paying attention

1263
00:44:30.120 --> 00:44:32.019
to this community

1264
00:44:32.020 --> 00:44:33.899
of people who are outside without

1265
00:44:33.900 --> 00:44:34.228
means?

1266
00:44:34.229 --> 00:44:34.739
Diasporic?

1267
00:44:34.740 --> 00:44:35.513
Yes.

1268
00:44:35.514 --> 00:44:37.439
Diasporic Somalis, there

1269
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:38.249
are two reasons.

1270
00:44:38.250 --> 00:44:40.469
Number one, I'm interested

1271
00:44:40.470 --> 00:44:42.449
in the diasporic Somalis because

1272
00:44:42.450 --> 00:44:44.459
they are now a community

1273
00:44:44.460 --> 00:44:46.319
in America, a community in

1274
00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:47.320
England, a community

1275
00:44:48.240 --> 00:44:50.069
in Norway, large communities of

1276
00:44:50.070 --> 00:44:51.539
Somalis.

1277
00:44:51.540 --> 00:44:53.459
And so, one needs to tell their

1278
00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:54.460
story.

1279
00:44:55.980 --> 00:44:58.229
One needs to tell the story in which

1280
00:44:58.230 --> 00:45:00.299
the pain of separation from

1281
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:03.359
home has obviously

1282
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:05.279
had its toll on

1283
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:06.929
their lives.

1284
00:45:06.930 --> 00:45:08.309
And not only that, but their

1285
00:45:08.310 --> 00:45:10.199
children also, you see,

1286
00:45:10.200 --> 00:45:12.029
because the distance

1287
00:45:12.030 --> 00:45:13.949
between the father

1288
00:45:13.950 --> 00:45:16.439
who arrived in Norway,

1289
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:19.469
in England, in America

1290
00:45:19.470 --> 00:45:21.299
as an exile, as a

1291
00:45:21.300 --> 00:45:23.249
refugee, has

1292
00:45:23.250 --> 00:45:25.229
now produced a child

1293
00:45:25.230 --> 00:45:27.869
who considers himself or herself

1294
00:45:27.870 --> 00:45:29.909
as American,

1295
00:45:29.910 --> 00:45:31.829
as British,

1296
00:45:31.830 --> 00:45:33.539
as Italian.

1297
00:45:33.540 --> 00:45:35.539
And therefore, the distances

1298
00:45:35.540 --> 00:45:37.079
as we are talking about between

1299
00:45:37.080 --> 00:45:39.059
generations is becoming bigger

1300
00:45:39.060 --> 00:45:40.949
and bigger, is becoming

1301
00:45:40.950 --> 00:45:41.950
big and bigger.

1302
00:45:43.470 --> 00:45:45.869
And that interests

1303
00:45:45.870 --> 00:45:47.849
me. The other thing that's also very

1304
00:45:47.850 --> 00:45:49.889
important to say

1305
00:45:49.890 --> 00:45:52.439
is that Somali politics

1306
00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:54.150
has now become nasty.

1307
00:45:55.620 --> 00:45:57.059
Terrible.

1308
00:45:57.060 --> 00:45:58.060
The country is--

1309
00:46:00.540 --> 00:46:02.729
the corruption is

1310
00:46:02.730 --> 00:46:04.409
tremendous.

1311
00:46:04.410 --> 00:46:06.719
The misguided

1312
00:46:06.720 --> 00:46:08.789
attitude towards

1313
00:46:08.790 --> 00:46:10.829
the nation is

1314
00:46:10.830 --> 00:46:12.449
also quite unhealthy.

1315
00:46:13.500 --> 00:46:15.149
And I didn't want to write another

1316
00:46:15.150 --> 00:46:17.459
book about

1317
00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:18.780
Somalia for a while.

1318
00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:22.919
Probably. Probably after I finish

1319
00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:24.899
the next book that I'm working on,

1320
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:26.880
the third part in the trilogy

1321
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:30.329
because Hiding in Plain Sight,

1322
00:46:30.330 --> 00:46:32.159
North of Dawn, and

1323
00:46:32.160 --> 00:46:33.989
the third part of the trilogy.

1324
00:46:33.990 --> 00:46:34.859
I was going to ask.

1325
00:46:34.860 --> 00:46:37.229
When I am done with that,

1326
00:46:37.230 --> 00:46:39.389
it is possible

1327
00:46:39.390 --> 00:46:41.789
that I'll go back and

1328
00:46:41.790 --> 00:46:43.649
set another novel in

1329
00:46:43.650 --> 00:46:44.849
Somalia.

1330
00:46:44.850 --> 00:46:46.542
But in Somalia, as it is now

1331
00:46:48.990 --> 00:46:50.999
because there is the pangs

1332
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:52.000
of--

1333
00:46:55.110 --> 00:46:56.699
Civil War anxiety

1334
00:46:57.720 --> 00:46:59.549
is too great to write about

1335
00:46:59.550 --> 00:47:01.559
now, and therefore I'm taking

1336
00:47:01.560 --> 00:47:03.690
my time for a while

1337
00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:06.599
from writing about Somalia.

1338
00:47:06.600 --> 00:47:08.549
And so I'll set all

1339
00:47:08.550 --> 00:47:10.679
three novels among

1340
00:47:10.680 --> 00:47:12.524
the diasporic

1341
00:47:12.525 --> 00:47:13.525
Somalis.

1342
00:47:15.389 --> 00:47:16.799
So let me ask you one last question,

1343
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:17.699
if I could, about this.

1344
00:47:17.700 --> 00:47:19.379
Just sticking with this theme of

1345
00:47:19.380 --> 00:47:20.339
exile for a second.

1346
00:47:20.340 --> 00:47:22.169
And I mentioned earlier the

1347
00:47:22.170 --> 00:47:24.089
essay you published in 1995 called

1348
00:47:24.090 --> 00:47:25.679
Bastards of Empire when you were

1349
00:47:25.680 --> 00:47:26.759
writing about exile.

1350
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:28.439
And this is still 1995, a time when

1351
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:30.569
you could not go back to Somalia,

1352
00:47:30.570 --> 00:47:31.570
is that right?

1353
00:47:32.790 --> 00:47:35.279
You talk a little bit about

1354
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:36.388
your experience of finding

1355
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:39.089
out that you didn't have a place to

1356
00:47:39.090 --> 00:47:40.829
go back home to, what your reaction

1357
00:47:40.830 --> 00:47:42.659
was, and how you managed

1358
00:47:42.660 --> 00:47:44.429
to figure out how to live.

1359
00:47:45.510 --> 00:47:47.429
That essay ends on

1360
00:47:47.430 --> 00:47:49.259
an upbeat note, and it ends

1361
00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:50.489
with you talking about a kind of a

1362
00:47:50.490 --> 00:47:51.959
fund of human goodwill that you

1363
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:54.089
believed in and that you're

1364
00:47:54.090 --> 00:47:56.309
depending on in a certain way.

1365
00:47:56.310 --> 00:47:57.419
And I just wonder if you can talk a

1366
00:47:57.420 --> 00:47:59.039
little bit about that ending of

1367
00:47:59.040 --> 00:47:59.289
that.

1368
00:47:59.290 --> 00:48:01.139
Well, I am the person

1369
00:48:01.140 --> 00:48:02.514
who I am now

1370
00:48:05.850 --> 00:48:07.260
thanks to my

1371
00:48:08.820 --> 00:48:10.050
foreign friends,

1372
00:48:11.190 --> 00:48:13.409
non-Somalis, who supported

1373
00:48:13.410 --> 00:48:16.139
me as a person with nothing

1374
00:48:16.140 --> 00:48:17.219
to fall back on,

1375
00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:20.249
who provided their

1376
00:48:20.250 --> 00:48:22.465
homes, their friendship.

1377
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:26.309
People who are, in

1378
00:48:26.310 --> 00:48:28.109
a lot of ways, closer to me than

1379
00:48:28.110 --> 00:48:29.939
many Somalis are because I

1380
00:48:29.940 --> 00:48:31.389
left Somalia in 1974.

1381
00:48:33.060 --> 00:48:34.140
And who

1382
00:48:35.310 --> 00:48:36.599
were very kind to me,

1383
00:48:38.550 --> 00:48:39.630
helped me

1384
00:48:40.710 --> 00:48:41.710
to think of

1385
00:48:44.640 --> 00:48:46.859
human beings as

1386
00:48:46.860 --> 00:48:47.860
universal,

1387
00:48:50.310 --> 00:48:52.259
a community of people

1388
00:48:52.260 --> 00:48:53.909
who can find

1389
00:48:55.050 --> 00:48:57.149
not blood as

1390
00:48:57.150 --> 00:48:59.339
the glue that binds

1391
00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:01.199
them together, but the

1392
00:49:01.200 --> 00:49:03.479
idea of being human beings,

1393
00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:05.369
the idea of being left-wing,

1394
00:49:05.370 --> 00:49:07.799
the idea of being left of center,

1395
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:08.940
the idea of being

1396
00:49:10.200 --> 00:49:11.550
good for one another.

1397
00:49:13.080 --> 00:49:15.269
And there are

1398
00:49:15.270 --> 00:49:17.279
some English friends of mine, some

1399
00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:19.469
American friends of mine

1400
00:49:19.470 --> 00:49:21.119
who are a lot closer to me

1401
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:24.509
than-- or even South

1402
00:49:24.510 --> 00:49:26.309
African friends of mine

1403
00:49:27.330 --> 00:49:29.669
to whom I report

1404
00:49:29.670 --> 00:49:31.379
every time I'm doing something.

1405
00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:33.359
In other words, it's

1406
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:35.399
very, very possible

1407
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:37.439
that I may not have

1408
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:39.629
a Somali friend

1409
00:49:39.630 --> 00:49:42.029
to whom I would write.

1410
00:49:42.030 --> 00:49:43.799
Not many Somali friends, I should

1411
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:44.800
say, to

1412
00:49:45.930 --> 00:49:47.969
whom I would write if

1413
00:49:47.970 --> 00:49:50.459
I were going to dangerous places.

1414
00:49:50.460 --> 00:49:52.319
You see, when I'm going to

1415
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:54.209
a dangerous place, it's

1416
00:49:54.210 --> 00:49:56.129
possible that the person to whom I

1417
00:49:56.130 --> 00:49:58.769
write about this dangerous place,

1418
00:49:58.770 --> 00:50:01.019
and Ito whom I would say, "Well,

1419
00:50:01.020 --> 00:50:02.669
look after my children and do this

1420
00:50:02.670 --> 00:50:04.709
and do that, the other"

1421
00:50:04.710 --> 00:50:06.090
could be an American

1422
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:09.389
or an English person

1423
00:50:09.390 --> 00:50:10.859
or an Italian.

1424
00:50:10.860 --> 00:50:11.860
People

1425
00:50:13.230 --> 00:50:15.359
in whom I have more faith

1426
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:17.759
than my own

1427
00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:18.959
Somali nationals.

1428
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:20.699
And the reason is because these

1429
00:50:20.700 --> 00:50:21.700
people

1430
00:50:22.530 --> 00:50:24.749
have become my friends,

1431
00:50:24.750 --> 00:50:26.699
and they've been there when

1432
00:50:26.700 --> 00:50:27.700
I needed them

1433
00:50:28.650 --> 00:50:30.869
at a time when things were

1434
00:50:30.870 --> 00:50:32.759
very difficult for me because when

1435
00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:34.649
I lived in Somalia-- all the years

1436
00:50:34.650 --> 00:50:36.539
that I lived in Somalia, I was

1437
00:50:36.540 --> 00:50:38.099
self-sufficient.

1438
00:50:38.100 --> 00:50:39.749
I had jobs.

1439
00:50:39.750 --> 00:50:41.129
I was very much liked.

1440
00:50:41.130 --> 00:50:43.289
I was a member of the

1441
00:50:43.290 --> 00:50:45.689
family, and so on and so forth.

1442
00:50:45.690 --> 00:50:47.379
But come out when you're in exile,

1443
00:50:47.380 --> 00:50:49.469
and you have no money,

1444
00:50:49.470 --> 00:50:51.629
and you don't know whether tomorrow

1445
00:50:51.630 --> 00:50:53.969
you'll have only potatoes

1446
00:50:53.970 --> 00:50:55.260
or only carrots.

1447
00:50:56.490 --> 00:50:58.439
And your papers may

1448
00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:00.270
not be in great order.

1449
00:51:01.290 --> 00:51:02.489
And you don't want to become a

1450
00:51:02.490 --> 00:51:04.859
refugee because I have never held

1451
00:51:04.860 --> 00:51:06.809
refugee papers in all my

1452
00:51:06.810 --> 00:51:07.769
life.

1453
00:51:07.770 --> 00:51:10.379
Now, it's thanks

1454
00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:12.809
to my American,

1455
00:51:12.810 --> 00:51:14.879
British, French,

1456
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:15.880
Italian

1457
00:51:16.710 --> 00:51:17.710
friends.

1458
00:51:18.750 --> 00:51:20.339
Well, that just reminds me of kind

1459
00:51:20.340 --> 00:51:21.899
of like one-- and maybe we can end

1460
00:51:21.900 --> 00:51:23.249
on this. But like one of the biggest

1461
00:51:23.250 --> 00:51:24.479
themes that I see running through

1462
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:25.739
your fiction, we've talked about it

1463
00:51:25.740 --> 00:51:27.659
as cosmopolitanism, but I think

1464
00:51:27.660 --> 00:51:28.499
in other ways too.

1465
00:51:28.500 --> 00:51:30.719
And that is like finding ways

1466
00:51:30.720 --> 00:51:32.579
to be together that acknowledge our

1467
00:51:32.580 --> 00:51:34.079
differences, but that still support

1468
00:51:34.080 --> 00:51:35.579
us as individuals, like finding

1469
00:51:35.580 --> 00:51:36.509
different ways to do that.

1470
00:51:36.510 --> 00:51:37.379
And that's, I think, one of the

1471
00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:39.599
things that I value

1472
00:51:39.600 --> 00:51:40.739
most in your fiction.

1473
00:51:40.740 --> 00:51:42.089
Thank you very much.

1474
00:51:42.090 --> 00:51:42.808
Thank you.

1475
00:51:42.809 --> 00:51:43.589
Yeah. It's been an honor to talk with

1476
00:51:43.590 --> 00:51:44.549
you.

1477
00:51:44.550 --> 00:51:45.569
My pleasure, too.

1478
00:51:45.570 --> 00:51:46.570
Thanks.

1479
00:51:47.600 --> 00:51:48.829
That's it for this edition of Being

1480
00:51:48.830 --> 00:51:50.659
Human. This episode was produced

1481
00:51:50.660 --> 00:51:52.519
by Noah Livingston, Humanities Media

1482
00:51:52.520 --> 00:51:53.509
Fellow at the University of

1483
00:51:53.510 --> 00:51:55.009
Pittsburgh. Stay tuned next time

1484
00:51:55.010 --> 00:51:56.539
when my guest will be Steve Lyons,

1485
00:51:56.540 --> 00:51:58.009
director of research for the Natural

1486
00:51:58.010 --> 00:51:59.269
History Museum.

1487
00:51:59.270 --> 00:52:00.270
Thanks for listening.