WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.730 --> 00:00:03.959 Hello and welcome to the latest 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:05.339 installment of Being Human from the 3 00:00:05.340 --> 00:00:06.899 University of Pittsburgh. 4 00:00:06.900 --> 00:00:08.579 This series is devoted to exploring 5 00:00:08.580 --> 00:00:10.109 the humanities, their connections to 6 00:00:10.110 --> 00:00:11.549 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:11.550 --> 00:00:12.989 in the public world. 8 00:00:12.990 --> 00:00:14.789 I'm Dan Kubis, associate director of 9 00:00:14.790 --> 00:00:16.229 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:16.230 --> 00:00:18.179 My guest today is Kazuo Hara, 11 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:19.829 a filmmaker whose documentaries have 12 00:00:19.830 --> 00:00:21.119 raised important questions about 13 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:22.799 Japanese postwar culture for nearly 14 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:24.359 50 years. 15 00:00:24.360 --> 00:00:25.649 Hara has been making documentaries 16 00:00:25.650 --> 00:00:27.539 since 1972 when he released 17 00:00:27.540 --> 00:00:29.639 Goodbye CP, an intimate portrait 18 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:31.469 of Yokota Hiroshi, a man living 19 00:00:31.470 --> 00:00:33.089 with cerebral palsy. 20 00:00:33.090 --> 00:00:34.469 The film was controversial because 21 00:00:34.470 --> 00:00:36.089 of Hara's honesty in portraying the 22 00:00:36.090 --> 00:00:37.259 difficulties of living with the 23 00:00:37.260 --> 00:00:39.269 disease and because of his decision 24 00:00:39.270 --> 00:00:40.412 to include footage of Hiroshi's wife 25 00:00:40.413 --> 00:00:42.329 objecting to the way he was 26 00:00:42.330 --> 00:00:43.499 being portrayed in the film. 27 00:00:44.730 --> 00:00:46.919 These two qualities of Goodbye CP, 28 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:48.449 that is, its willingness to tackle 29 00:00:48.450 --> 00:00:49.919 difficult social issues and its 30 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:51.629 refusal to occupy a moral high 31 00:00:51.630 --> 00:00:52.889 ground, make it a good 32 00:00:52.890 --> 00:00:54.569 representation of Hara's work as a 33 00:00:54.570 --> 00:00:55.409 whole. 34 00:00:55.410 --> 00:00:56.939 He offers similarly complex 35 00:00:56.940 --> 00:00:58.379 treatments of the legacy of World 36 00:00:58.380 --> 00:01:00.149 War II in his film, The Emperor's 37 00:01:00.150 --> 00:01:02.159 Naked Army Marches On, and 38 00:01:02.160 --> 00:01:03.659 of sex and gender in the film, 39 00:01:03.660 --> 00:01:05.518 Extreme Private Arrows, just to 40 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:06.519 name two examples. Hara's 41 00:01:07.620 --> 00:01:09.599 most recent work is Sennan Asbestos 42 00:01:09.600 --> 00:01:11.699 Disaster, his first documentary film 43 00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:13.379 in 17 years. 44 00:01:13.380 --> 00:01:14.939 The new film focuses on a group of 45 00:01:14.940 --> 00:01:16.829 former asbestos workers suing the 46 00:01:16.830 --> 00:01:18.449 government for allegedly exposing 47 00:01:18.450 --> 00:01:20.489 them to asbestos poisoning. 48 00:01:20.490 --> 00:01:21.869 The film, which took Hara eight 49 00:01:21.870 --> 00:01:23.249 years to shoot, follows the 50 00:01:23.250 --> 00:01:24.839 plaintiffs as they fight against red 51 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:26.879 tape, flagging motivation, and 52 00:01:26.880 --> 00:01:28.619 their own failing health. 53 00:01:28.620 --> 00:01:30.449 As usual, Hara does not exempt his 54 00:01:30.450 --> 00:01:32.129 own efforts from these challenges, 55 00:01:32.130 --> 00:01:33.509 filming several scenes that lead 56 00:01:33.510 --> 00:01:35.099 viewers to wonder what role the 57 00:01:35.100 --> 00:01:36.779 presence of the camera played in the 58 00:01:36.780 --> 00:01:37.799 development of the case. 59 00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:40.409 Sennan Asbestos Disaster has 60 00:01:40.410 --> 00:01:42.299 received multiple awards in Japan 61 00:01:42.300 --> 00:01:43.919 and earned Hara the first biennial 62 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:45.659 Japan Documentary Film Award at the 63 00:01:45.660 --> 00:01:47.309 University of Pittsburgh. 64 00:01:47.310 --> 00:01:48.689 I had the honor of talking with him 65 00:01:48.690 --> 00:01:49.949 through a translator when he was in 66 00:01:49.950 --> 00:01:51.599 Pittsburgh to receive the award, and 67 00:01:51.600 --> 00:01:53.519 I began by asking him how he came to 68 00:01:53.520 --> 00:01:54.509 make his latest film. 69 00:01:54.510 --> 00:01:56.519 Well, welcome to Pittsburgh, 70 00:01:56.520 --> 00:01:58.259 and congratulations on winning the 71 00:01:58.260 --> 00:02:00.149 first University of Pittsburgh, 72 00:02:00.150 --> 00:02:02.129 Japan Documentary Award for your 73 00:02:02.130 --> 00:02:04.139 film Sennan Asbestos Disaster. 74 00:02:05.820 --> 00:02:07.499 I wonder if we could start by 75 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:08.969 talking a little bit about that 76 00:02:08.970 --> 00:02:09.929 film. 77 00:02:09.930 --> 00:02:11.249 It's the first documentary you've 78 00:02:11.250 --> 00:02:13.139 made in 17 years. 79 00:02:13.140 --> 00:02:14.489 Can you talk a little bit about what 80 00:02:14.490 --> 00:02:16.409 inspired you about this 81 00:02:16.410 --> 00:02:18.239 particular situation and why make 82 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:19.240 this documentary? 83 00:02:20.820 --> 00:02:22.709 The initial impulse wasn't much of 84 00:02:22.710 --> 00:02:24.419 anything at all. 85 00:02:24.420 --> 00:02:26.339 The occasion was a TV producer 86 00:02:26.340 --> 00:02:27.959 saying to me, "Mr. 87 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:29.549 Hara, how about doing a piece on 88 00:02:29.550 --> 00:02:30.550 asbestos?" 89 00:02:31.530 --> 00:02:33.389 Up until then, I didn't know 90 00:02:33.390 --> 00:02:34.679 anything about asbestos. 91 00:02:35.820 --> 00:02:37.441 I said on the spot, "I'll do it." 92 00:02:37.442 --> 00:02:39.269 Since I'd been unable to 93 00:02:39.270 --> 00:02:40.949 make another film for quite some 94 00:02:40.950 --> 00:02:42.869 time, and I was 95 00:02:42.870 --> 00:02:44.399 happy to make a film on pretty much 96 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:45.400 any subject. After 97 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:49.349 that, the sequence of events was 98 00:02:49.350 --> 00:02:51.299 that I went to meet with the lawyers 99 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:53.069 and the plaintiffs since it's really 100 00:02:53.070 --> 00:02:54.449 a legal battle. 101 00:02:54.450 --> 00:02:55.450 Filming 102 00:02:56.340 --> 00:02:57.809 for TV involves a lot of 103 00:02:57.810 --> 00:02:59.639 restrictions, like being 104 00:02:59.640 --> 00:03:02.099 told to film this way or that 105 00:03:02.100 --> 00:03:03.100 with various policies, and 106 00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:06.089 my own ideas about how to film 107 00:03:06.090 --> 00:03:08.279 wouldn't show up that way. 108 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:10.769 So I turned the TV producer down. 109 00:03:10.770 --> 00:03:11.969 That's how the film became an 110 00:03:11.970 --> 00:03:14.009 independent production. 111 00:03:14.010 --> 00:03:15.899 Yeah, that's really 112 00:03:15.900 --> 00:03:18.269 interesting. There's a lawyer 113 00:03:18.270 --> 00:03:20.489 in the film for the second plaintiff 114 00:03:20.490 --> 00:03:22.439 group who says that 115 00:03:22.440 --> 00:03:24.599 she films her client 116 00:03:24.600 --> 00:03:27.149 because she wants the judges 117 00:03:27.150 --> 00:03:28.464 to see that her client's suffering. 118 00:03:30.390 --> 00:03:32.129 And I wonder if one of the things 119 00:03:32.130 --> 00:03:34.289 you wanted to do in making this film 120 00:03:34.290 --> 00:03:35.273 was similar to that. 121 00:03:35.274 --> 00:03:37.289 That is show the suffering 122 00:03:37.290 --> 00:03:38.609 that the people who worked in 123 00:03:38.610 --> 00:03:41.639 asbestos factories and suffered the 124 00:03:41.640 --> 00:03:43.349 illnesses that came along with that 125 00:03:44.370 --> 00:03:46.080 make that visible to the world. 126 00:03:51.569 --> 00:03:52.649 I really struggled with what to do 127 00:03:52.650 --> 00:03:54.089 for this film. 128 00:03:54.090 --> 00:03:55.889 For a time, I even doubted whether 129 00:03:55.890 --> 00:03:57.809 it would become a film. 130 00:03:57.810 --> 00:03:59.819 Reason being that the protagonists 131 00:03:59.820 --> 00:04:01.589 were so very different from the main 132 00:04:01.590 --> 00:04:04.439 characters in my other films to date 133 00:04:04.440 --> 00:04:05.789 that I was really grasping in the 134 00:04:05.790 --> 00:04:06.790 dark. 135 00:04:07.500 --> 00:04:09.929 Or up till now, my protagonists 136 00:04:09.930 --> 00:04:11.909 were clearly people who had a firm 137 00:04:11.910 --> 00:04:14.249 desire to contest authority. 138 00:04:14.250 --> 00:04:15.539 They were conspicuously 139 00:04:15.540 --> 00:04:17.578 idiosyncratic or singular 140 00:04:17.579 --> 00:04:19.409 individuals, radical in 141 00:04:19.410 --> 00:04:20.909 their way of life. 142 00:04:20.910 --> 00:04:22.649 However, the people in this film 143 00:04:22.650 --> 00:04:25.409 were extraordinarily normal folk, 144 00:04:25.410 --> 00:04:27.059 ordinary people. 145 00:04:27.060 --> 00:04:28.319 For starters, these were not the 146 00:04:28.320 --> 00:04:29.849 type of people I would have chosen 147 00:04:29.850 --> 00:04:31.649 for any of my other films. 148 00:04:31.650 --> 00:04:33.329 But I told the TV producer I would 149 00:04:33.330 --> 00:04:35.189 take this on, and 150 00:04:35.190 --> 00:04:36.929 I couldn't just give up. 151 00:04:36.930 --> 00:04:38.519 So I struggled thinking how to 152 00:04:38.520 --> 00:04:40.859 approach making a film about them. 153 00:04:40.860 --> 00:04:42.359 I continued like this for eight 154 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:44.669 years, grappling with the question. 155 00:04:44.670 --> 00:04:46.439 That is to say, the entire time I 156 00:04:46.440 --> 00:04:48.269 was filming, to be honest with 157 00:04:48.270 --> 00:04:49.349 you. 158 00:04:49.350 --> 00:04:51.119 But muddling through somehow with 159 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:52.649 little confidence at all that I was 160 00:04:52.650 --> 00:04:55.019 making an interesting film, 161 00:04:55.020 --> 00:04:56.759 I did start to get a sense of how I 162 00:04:56.760 --> 00:04:58.709 wanted the film to look. 163 00:04:58.710 --> 00:05:00.599 There were 59 people in the Sennan 164 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:01.600 plaintiff group. Of 165 00:05:02.430 --> 00:05:04.169 these, about 20 actually appeared in 166 00:05:04.170 --> 00:05:05.969 the court proceedings and in the 167 00:05:05.970 --> 00:05:07.439 protest scenes. 168 00:05:07.440 --> 00:05:09.179 So I thought I would concentrate on 169 00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:11.325 the lives of those 20 170 00:05:11.326 --> 00:05:12.389 individuals. 171 00:05:12.390 --> 00:05:14.399 In the end, while editing, 172 00:05:14.400 --> 00:05:15.809 I feel like those scenes were the 173 00:05:15.810 --> 00:05:17.279 most vivid. 174 00:05:17.280 --> 00:05:18.269 Oh, yes. 175 00:05:18.270 --> 00:05:20.219 You asked me about suffering. 176 00:05:20.220 --> 00:05:22.499 Meeting with the plaintiffs, 177 00:05:22.500 --> 00:05:24.089 I heard, as you say, that living 178 00:05:24.090 --> 00:05:25.979 with asbestosis is, 179 00:05:25.980 --> 00:05:28.589 in fact, painful and stressful. 180 00:05:28.590 --> 00:05:29.849 So I thought I had to show that 181 00:05:29.850 --> 00:05:31.470 experience visually. 182 00:05:32.760 --> 00:05:34.709 I asked victims politely 183 00:05:34.710 --> 00:05:36.089 whether I might film them in 184 00:05:36.090 --> 00:05:38.669 uncomfortable situations, 185 00:05:38.670 --> 00:05:39.869 but the family members had a 186 00:05:39.870 --> 00:05:41.699 difficult time permitting me to film 187 00:05:41.700 --> 00:05:43.379 their loved ones in great 188 00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:44.380 discomfort. 189 00:05:45.450 --> 00:05:47.099 I have to say that I understand how 190 00:05:47.100 --> 00:05:49.259 they felt, so I wasn't in a position 191 00:05:49.260 --> 00:05:50.260 to insist. They 192 00:05:51.930 --> 00:05:53.069 would say I could film when the 193 00:05:53.070 --> 00:05:54.899 victim recovered, but I 194 00:05:54.900 --> 00:05:56.789 thought it important to film when 195 00:05:56.790 --> 00:05:57.959 they were still suffering. 196 00:05:59.370 --> 00:06:01.049 I was resigned to them turning down 197 00:06:01.050 --> 00:06:02.969 my request, and in the 198 00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:05.039 end, I never got to film a scene 199 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:07.169 of real suffering. 200 00:06:07.170 --> 00:06:08.939 So I guess you might say I was left 201 00:06:08.940 --> 00:06:11.129 with regret over not having filmed 202 00:06:11.130 --> 00:06:12.959 the real physical discomfort 203 00:06:12.960 --> 00:06:14.099 of the victims. 204 00:06:14.100 --> 00:06:15.959 One of the-- I'll ask a follow-up 205 00:06:15.960 --> 00:06:16.960 question to that. 206 00:06:17.820 --> 00:06:20.009 One of the most intense 207 00:06:20.010 --> 00:06:22.289 scenes in the film 208 00:06:22.290 --> 00:06:24.269 comes when you see a victim 209 00:06:24.270 --> 00:06:26.069 coughing in the bathtub. 210 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:30.059 And this, I think, is the lawyer's 211 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:31.060 film. 212 00:06:32.310 --> 00:06:33.839 And so I wonder, is that an 213 00:06:33.840 --> 00:06:35.819 important scene to have 214 00:06:35.820 --> 00:06:36.599 in this movie? 215 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:37.757 Because it does show that intense 216 00:06:37.758 --> 00:06:38.758 suffering. 217 00:06:42.869 --> 00:06:44.219 There was footage in that film taken 218 00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:46.259 only days before she passed away. 219 00:06:47.900 --> 00:06:49.410 That was taken by her attorney. 220 00:06:50.610 --> 00:06:52.349 The lawyer took it to show the judge 221 00:06:52.350 --> 00:06:54.539 at trial just how uncomfortable 222 00:06:54.540 --> 00:06:56.429 it was for her since 223 00:06:56.430 --> 00:06:58.199 she could not be present in court 224 00:06:58.200 --> 00:06:59.369 herself. 225 00:06:59.370 --> 00:07:00.749 At any rate, they wanted to show the 226 00:07:00.750 --> 00:07:02.039 judge. 227 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:03.569 So the lawyer imposed upon the 228 00:07:03.570 --> 00:07:05.609 family members saying that they had 229 00:07:05.610 --> 00:07:07.410 to shoot this video for the trial. 230 00:07:08.730 --> 00:07:10.169 We borrowed the footage from the 231 00:07:10.170 --> 00:07:12.749 lawyer and used it in the film. 232 00:07:12.750 --> 00:07:14.399 So that scene is not something that 233 00:07:14.400 --> 00:07:15.400 I shot myself. 234 00:07:16.500 --> 00:07:18.779 Then there's the bath scene. 235 00:07:18.780 --> 00:07:20.939 That woman, her name is Mrs. 236 00:07:20.940 --> 00:07:22.949 Nishimura, is a good-natured 237 00:07:22.950 --> 00:07:25.169 person, and she welcomed us warmly 238 00:07:25.170 --> 00:07:27.089 on each visit. 239 00:07:27.090 --> 00:07:28.919 She was so welcoming that we visited 240 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:30.180 any number of times. 241 00:07:31.410 --> 00:07:33.449 Her son works the night shift, 242 00:07:33.450 --> 00:07:35.879 and we filmed her making his bento. 243 00:07:35.880 --> 00:07:37.739 After which, Mrs. Nishimura 244 00:07:37.740 --> 00:07:39.569 said to me, "Mr. 245 00:07:39.570 --> 00:07:42.209 Hara, I'm going to take a bath. 246 00:07:42.210 --> 00:07:43.949 I always choke on the steam in the 247 00:07:43.950 --> 00:07:44.969 bath. 248 00:07:44.970 --> 00:07:46.469 That's something you'd like to film, 249 00:07:46.470 --> 00:07:48.479 right?" I understood right 250 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:49.769 away that she was giving us 251 00:07:49.770 --> 00:07:51.449 permission to film. 252 00:07:51.450 --> 00:07:53.159 So I said, "Yes, we would very much 253 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:54.160 like to." And 254 00:07:55.020 --> 00:07:56.519 that's how we were able to shoot the 255 00:07:56.520 --> 00:07:58.599 bath scene with her permission. 256 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:00.419 I wonder, can you talk a little bit 257 00:08:00.420 --> 00:08:02.699 about the characters in the film 258 00:08:02.700 --> 00:08:04.649 who weren't interested in holding 259 00:08:04.650 --> 00:08:06.779 the government accountable? 260 00:08:06.780 --> 00:08:08.669 There are a few characters who 261 00:08:08.670 --> 00:08:09.809 say they don't want to dig up the 262 00:08:09.810 --> 00:08:10.769 past. 263 00:08:10.770 --> 00:08:12.209 There are a few characters who say 264 00:08:12.210 --> 00:08:13.739 they don't regret working in the 265 00:08:13.740 --> 00:08:15.659 asbestos factory, and they're 266 00:08:15.660 --> 00:08:17.219 happy for the opportunity that it 267 00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:18.119 gave them. 268 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:20.339 Did you want them 269 00:08:20.340 --> 00:08:22.349 to be more upset 270 00:08:22.350 --> 00:08:24.359 and be more willing 271 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:25.829 to protest? 272 00:08:25.830 --> 00:08:27.299 And what were your feelings about 273 00:08:27.300 --> 00:08:28.529 those characters? 274 00:08:28.530 --> 00:08:29.530 Now 275 00:08:30.840 --> 00:08:32.788 that I'm older, I often think about 276 00:08:32.789 --> 00:08:34.589 what drew me to the topics I've made 277 00:08:34.590 --> 00:08:36.059 films about until now. 278 00:08:37.260 --> 00:08:38.649 Not so much for the present film, 279 00:08:38.650 --> 00:08:40.619 but with regard to all 280 00:08:40.620 --> 00:08:42.928 the films I have made until now. 281 00:08:42.929 --> 00:08:44.609 I think I've come to understand what 282 00:08:44.610 --> 00:08:46.439 motivated me because of my 283 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:48.749 feelings while making this film. 284 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:49.889 What should I call it? 285 00:08:49.890 --> 00:08:51.959 I guess those in positions of power 286 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:54.509 completely lack the way of thinking 287 00:08:54.510 --> 00:08:56.369 that they are to conduct politics 288 00:08:56.370 --> 00:08:58.859 for the weaker members of society 289 00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:01.019 or for the people and to support 290 00:09:01.020 --> 00:09:02.849 citizens in order to lead a 291 00:09:02.850 --> 00:09:03.850 happy life. 292 00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:06.149 My awareness of that has deepened, 293 00:09:06.150 --> 00:09:08.009 and what I'm saying 294 00:09:08.010 --> 00:09:09.899 is that humans, in order to live 295 00:09:09.900 --> 00:09:11.759 fully as human beings, 296 00:09:11.760 --> 00:09:13.439 have to fight with those in 297 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:14.639 positions of power. 298 00:09:15.690 --> 00:09:17.009 That idea has been my main 299 00:09:17.010 --> 00:09:18.960 preoccupation until now. 300 00:09:20.160 --> 00:09:21.569 That's why I made films with those 301 00:09:21.570 --> 00:09:23.549 kinds of people to date. 302 00:09:23.550 --> 00:09:26.009 Once more, these residents of 303 00:09:26.010 --> 00:09:27.149 Sennan aren't even conscious of 304 00:09:27.150 --> 00:09:29.129 fighting the authorities. 305 00:09:29.130 --> 00:09:30.809 But getting involved in a legal 306 00:09:30.810 --> 00:09:32.669 fight, they come to realize 307 00:09:32.670 --> 00:09:35.519 the true nature of the authorities. 308 00:09:35.520 --> 00:09:37.409 They come to the realization that 309 00:09:37.410 --> 00:09:39.179 we have no choice but to get angry. 310 00:09:40.650 --> 00:09:42.209 And I fashion the film around that 311 00:09:42.210 --> 00:09:43.259 process. 312 00:09:43.260 --> 00:09:45.209 Even so, and I do think 313 00:09:45.210 --> 00:09:46.619 that the underlying message of the 314 00:09:46.620 --> 00:09:48.449 film is that people have to get 315 00:09:48.450 --> 00:09:49.439 angry. 316 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:51.659 But as for why we have to get angry, 317 00:09:51.660 --> 00:09:53.879 I was born in 1945, 318 00:09:53.880 --> 00:09:55.649 which was just when democracy was 319 00:09:55.650 --> 00:09:56.969 introduced to Japan. 320 00:09:56.970 --> 00:09:58.589 And I grew up as that process of 321 00:09:58.590 --> 00:10:01.109 democracy was taking root in Japan. 322 00:10:01.110 --> 00:10:02.999 So my own consciousness, 323 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:04.889 I think that notion of democracy was 324 00:10:04.890 --> 00:10:07.199 a decisive contributing factor. 325 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:09.269 In addition, I myself have thoughts 326 00:10:09.270 --> 00:10:11.069 as a member of the masses, and a 327 00:10:11.070 --> 00:10:12.809 notion of democracy, including 328 00:10:12.810 --> 00:10:14.759 fighting with authorities, became 329 00:10:14.760 --> 00:10:15.760 a part of me. 330 00:10:16.680 --> 00:10:18.959 I've made films preoccupied 331 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:20.519 with how that became something we 332 00:10:20.520 --> 00:10:22.049 have the capability to do as 333 00:10:22.050 --> 00:10:23.429 citizens. 334 00:10:23.430 --> 00:10:25.169 I feel that strongly now. 335 00:10:25.170 --> 00:10:27.539 Yeah, that's a 336 00:10:27.540 --> 00:10:29.340 perfect segue to my next question. 337 00:10:29.341 --> 00:10:30.341 You 338 00:10:33.570 --> 00:10:35.399 were born in 1945. 339 00:10:35.400 --> 00:10:37.049 There's a recent story about you in 340 00:10:37.050 --> 00:10:39.149 The New York Times where 341 00:10:39.150 --> 00:10:40.709 you talk about the postwar 342 00:10:40.710 --> 00:10:42.899 democratic order in Japan. 343 00:10:42.900 --> 00:10:44.909 And a central question 344 00:10:44.910 --> 00:10:46.619 of that order, you say, is the 345 00:10:46.620 --> 00:10:47.583 question how will you live. 346 00:10:47.584 --> 00:10:49.589 And that your 347 00:10:49.590 --> 00:10:52.019 films are 348 00:10:52.020 --> 00:10:53.909 an attempt to address 349 00:10:53.910 --> 00:10:55.709 this question, how will you live? 350 00:10:55.710 --> 00:10:57.629 So I wonder, one thing I wanted 351 00:10:57.630 --> 00:10:58.630 to ask you was 352 00:11:00.150 --> 00:11:01.889 how do you see the relationship 353 00:11:01.890 --> 00:11:03.729 between your films and 354 00:11:03.730 --> 00:11:05.129 that democratic order? 355 00:11:05.130 --> 00:11:07.259 Do you see them as opposed 356 00:11:07.260 --> 00:11:09.149 to the order, or do you see them as 357 00:11:09.150 --> 00:11:10.589 an important part of it? 358 00:11:10.590 --> 00:11:11.590 I 359 00:11:12.750 --> 00:11:14.519 would say that the state sets up 360 00:11:14.520 --> 00:11:16.469 various mechanisms to uphold 361 00:11:16.470 --> 00:11:18.119 its power as a state. 362 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:20.069 Every system. Those of us who don't 363 00:11:20.070 --> 00:11:22.019 have any power in democracy 364 00:11:22.020 --> 00:11:24.299 to regulate the populace 365 00:11:24.300 --> 00:11:27.239 create various schemes. 366 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:28.619 What I mean is that we live our 367 00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:30.509 lives inescapably controlled 368 00:11:30.510 --> 00:11:31.510 by institutions. In 369 00:11:32.640 --> 00:11:34.169 the course of our daily life, we 370 00:11:34.170 --> 00:11:35.789 sometimes feel constricted or 371 00:11:35.790 --> 00:11:36.790 confined, and some 372 00:11:37.711 --> 00:11:39.360 are especially sensitive to this. 373 00:11:39.361 --> 00:11:41.219 Toward the system, which 374 00:11:41.220 --> 00:11:43.079 makes them feel constricted, they 375 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:45.209 have to fight in order to liberate 376 00:11:45.210 --> 00:11:46.589 themselves. 377 00:11:46.590 --> 00:11:47.999 And of the people who think this 378 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.099 way, some consider 379 00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:51.100 taking action. 380 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:53.579 I've turned my camera on those 381 00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:55.619 people of action. 382 00:11:55.620 --> 00:11:57.509 To say again, people who really 383 00:11:57.510 --> 00:11:59.519 feel constricted in order to break 384 00:11:59.520 --> 00:12:01.349 through those bonds have to 385 00:12:01.350 --> 00:12:03.869 assert themselves, take action, 386 00:12:03.870 --> 00:12:05.789 and actually work to deconstruct the 387 00:12:05.790 --> 00:12:06.959 system. 388 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:09.059 I filmed that process of 389 00:12:09.060 --> 00:12:10.060 deconstruction. 390 00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:12.719 Filming those who have made the 391 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:14.429 choice to live by taking down the 392 00:12:14.430 --> 00:12:16.679 system, I refer to the films 393 00:12:16.680 --> 00:12:18.659 I've made like this as action 394 00:12:18.660 --> 00:12:19.949 documentaries. 395 00:12:19.950 --> 00:12:21.839 As for why I gravitate toward these 396 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:24.029 kinds of films, I myself 397 00:12:24.030 --> 00:12:25.859 in my daily life-- How should 398 00:12:25.860 --> 00:12:26.819 I say? 399 00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:28.829 Various institutions. 400 00:12:28.830 --> 00:12:31.229 I have felt constricted by systems, 401 00:12:31.230 --> 00:12:33.149 so I share the feelings of those who 402 00:12:33.150 --> 00:12:35.639 aim to take down those institutions. 403 00:12:35.640 --> 00:12:37.559 How audiences respond to my method 404 00:12:37.560 --> 00:12:38.560 of filmmaking, well, 405 00:12:39.990 --> 00:12:41.459 of course, some are turned off 406 00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:43.649 because the protagonists of my works 407 00:12:43.650 --> 00:12:45.989 have an extreme lifestyle. 408 00:12:45.990 --> 00:12:47.879 Of course, some share the sentiments 409 00:12:47.880 --> 00:12:48.880 of my characters. I 410 00:12:50.040 --> 00:12:51.779 make documentaries organized around 411 00:12:51.780 --> 00:12:53.729 such issues precisely so 412 00:12:53.730 --> 00:12:56.039 that spirited discussion happens 413 00:12:56.040 --> 00:12:57.659 on camera. 414 00:12:57.660 --> 00:12:59.450 I hope that such conflicting views 415 00:13:00.510 --> 00:13:02.009 or you might even say that I want 416 00:13:02.010 --> 00:13:03.869 such conflicting views, to 417 00:13:03.870 --> 00:13:05.099 erupt on camera. 418 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:07.139 This is another kind of, 419 00:13:07.140 --> 00:13:08.789 I guess, a big-picture question. 420 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:11.129 The Japanese photographer, Shōmei 421 00:13:11.130 --> 00:13:12.130 Tōmatsu, 422 00:13:13.470 --> 00:13:15.299 has talked about having a 423 00:13:15.300 --> 00:13:17.249 love-hate relationship with 424 00:13:17.250 --> 00:13:19.319 American culture in postwar 425 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:20.879 Japan. 426 00:13:20.880 --> 00:13:21.899 And he talked about this in 427 00:13:21.900 --> 00:13:23.549 particular with regard to a 428 00:13:23.550 --> 00:13:25.649 collection of photographs titled 429 00:13:25.650 --> 00:13:26.650 Occupation. 430 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:29.159 You've talked about your love of 431 00:13:29.160 --> 00:13:30.689 Hollywood action films. 432 00:13:30.690 --> 00:13:32.009 So I wonder if you have a similar 433 00:13:32.010 --> 00:13:33.959 kind of relationship to the presence 434 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:36.449 of American culture in Japan 435 00:13:36.450 --> 00:13:38.549 in the postwar years. 436 00:13:39.900 --> 00:13:41.789 There's a government program that 437 00:13:41.790 --> 00:13:43.499 permits you to spend one year as a 438 00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:46.499 Japanese cultural ambassador abroad, 439 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:47.879 which allows you to go wherever you 440 00:13:47.880 --> 00:13:50.939 want to learn more about your craft. 441 00:13:50.940 --> 00:13:52.859 I applied and was accepted, 442 00:13:52.860 --> 00:13:54.329 so I went to New York City for a 443 00:13:54.330 --> 00:13:55.330 year. 444 00:13:55.950 --> 00:13:57.479 At that time, I was interested to 445 00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:59.069 learn more about American 446 00:13:59.070 --> 00:14:01.199 documentary filmmaking. 447 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.209 So I watched quite a few American 448 00:14:03.210 --> 00:14:04.559 films. 449 00:14:04.560 --> 00:14:06.959 My impression from that experience 450 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:08.699 is that the approach is remarkably 451 00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:10.619 different between American 452 00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:12.570 and Japanese documentaries. 453 00:14:13.800 --> 00:14:15.689 American films seem to prioritize 454 00:14:15.690 --> 00:14:16.690 criticism. 455 00:14:17.520 --> 00:14:19.559 I'm not saying that's good or bad, 456 00:14:19.560 --> 00:14:21.239 just that there's a clear difference 457 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:23.039 in the two countries based on 458 00:14:23.040 --> 00:14:24.989 differences and culture. 459 00:14:24.990 --> 00:14:26.639 At any rate, I felt that this 460 00:14:26.640 --> 00:14:28.829 critical posture was important in 461 00:14:28.830 --> 00:14:31.199 the American films I watched. 462 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:32.699 Well, then, thinking about what's 463 00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:33.820 different in Japanese documentaries, 464 00:14:33.821 --> 00:14:35.729 of course, they aren't 465 00:14:35.730 --> 00:14:38.579 without a critical stance either. 466 00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:40.409 But one element even more important 467 00:14:40.410 --> 00:14:42.659 than critique is that Japanese 468 00:14:42.660 --> 00:14:44.609 filmmakers develop a close 469 00:14:44.610 --> 00:14:46.859 rapport with the filmed subject. 470 00:14:48.030 --> 00:14:49.589 Regardless of how you feel about the 471 00:14:49.590 --> 00:14:51.809 subject, developing empathy 472 00:14:51.810 --> 00:14:53.999 so that you know what motivates them 473 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:55.919 is, I believe, the most important 474 00:14:55.920 --> 00:14:57.149 feature. 475 00:14:57.150 --> 00:14:59.429 Once that rapport has been made 476 00:14:59.430 --> 00:15:01.379 or established, you can spend 477 00:15:01.380 --> 00:15:02.999 years with them. 478 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:04.769 And that intention, that stance, is 479 00:15:04.770 --> 00:15:06.329 a feature of many of the films made 480 00:15:06.330 --> 00:15:07.589 in Japan. 481 00:15:07.590 --> 00:15:09.239 At any rate, this difference that 482 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:11.819 American films prioritize criticism 483 00:15:11.820 --> 00:15:14.129 and Japanese aim first to establish 484 00:15:14.130 --> 00:15:15.839 empathetic rapport with their 485 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.179 subject stayed with me. 486 00:15:18.180 --> 00:15:19.679 One of the things I've-- just to 487 00:15:19.680 --> 00:15:21.359 talk again about, I guess, your 488 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:22.859 films. I'm thinking about action 489 00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:24.239 documentary. 490 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:25.979 And one thing that you've always 491 00:15:25.980 --> 00:15:27.869 been-- you've talked a lot about 492 00:15:27.870 --> 00:15:29.789 in your career is 493 00:15:29.790 --> 00:15:31.739 the idea of your films as 494 00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:34.080 actions, not as 495 00:15:35.190 --> 00:15:36.719 stories or not as something that's 496 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:37.919 about something else, but it's 497 00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:39.789 actually an action. 498 00:15:39.790 --> 00:15:41.579 I'm thinking here, in particular, of 499 00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:43.769 the opening of Extreme 500 00:15:43.770 --> 00:15:45.839 Private Eros, where 501 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:48.029 you say that the film is an attempt 502 00:15:48.030 --> 00:15:50.529 to understand your relationship with 503 00:15:50.530 --> 00:15:51.530 Takeda Miyuki. 504 00:15:51.900 --> 00:15:53.459 It's not about the relationship. 505 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:55.379 The film is an attempt to understand 506 00:15:55.380 --> 00:15:57.269 the relationship after she goes to 507 00:15:57.270 --> 00:15:58.139 Okinawa. 508 00:15:58.140 --> 00:15:59.129 Can you talk a little bit about 509 00:15:59.130 --> 00:16:01.139 that? That is your films as actions? 510 00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:06.719 I try to show the main character's 511 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.609 whole way of life when I'm making 512 00:16:08.610 --> 00:16:10.469 a film, so that person's 513 00:16:10.470 --> 00:16:12.479 special charm. 514 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:14.129 We follow them closely, but we don't 515 00:16:14.130 --> 00:16:16.049 just shoot the film with the idea 516 00:16:16.050 --> 00:16:17.279 that we are depicting them 517 00:16:17.280 --> 00:16:18.280 objectively. To 518 00:16:19.380 --> 00:16:20.819 bring out their special charm as 519 00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:22.739 clearly as possible, we have 520 00:16:22.740 --> 00:16:24.659 to show that person's message, 521 00:16:24.660 --> 00:16:26.639 way of life, and it may 522 00:16:26.640 --> 00:16:28.559 take two, three, even five 523 00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:29.489 years. 524 00:16:29.490 --> 00:16:31.619 So we pay attention to the type 525 00:16:31.620 --> 00:16:33.959 of life they want to lead. 526 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:36.089 Takeda Miyuki had the idea 527 00:16:36.090 --> 00:16:37.959 to have an unassisted birth on 528 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:38.960 camera. 529 00:16:39.610 --> 00:16:41.379 The main character of Emperor's 530 00:16:41.380 --> 00:16:43.269 Naked Army Marches On 531 00:16:43.270 --> 00:16:44.979 already lived his life firmly 532 00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:46.839 convinced that he would fight 533 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:48.819 the emperor system. 534 00:16:48.820 --> 00:16:50.229 I thought carefully about how to 535 00:16:50.230 --> 00:16:53.109 express these life decisions. 536 00:16:53.110 --> 00:16:55.689 In the case of Takeda Miyuki, 537 00:16:55.690 --> 00:16:57.459 she knew best what she intended by 538 00:16:57.460 --> 00:16:59.799 giving birth unassisted, 539 00:16:59.800 --> 00:17:01.419 which is to say that historically in 540 00:17:01.420 --> 00:17:03.519 Japan, until then, sexual 541 00:17:03.520 --> 00:17:05.229 discrimination in society was 542 00:17:05.230 --> 00:17:06.230 widespread. 543 00:17:07.089 --> 00:17:09.009 Women's life decision should be made 544 00:17:09.010 --> 00:17:10.389 following men. 545 00:17:10.390 --> 00:17:11.739 That women, until this point, were 546 00:17:11.740 --> 00:17:14.259 forced to live that way. 547 00:17:14.260 --> 00:17:16.449 And she saw her solo birth 548 00:17:16.450 --> 00:17:18.639 as a way to change and contest 549 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.489 that established pattern. 550 00:17:21.490 --> 00:17:22.689 That's how we came to film the 551 00:17:22.690 --> 00:17:23.690 birth. 552 00:17:24.310 --> 00:17:26.259 That reminds me that-- 553 00:17:26.260 --> 00:17:28.659 I can ask a follow-up to that, too. 554 00:17:28.660 --> 00:17:30.999 I've read that when you were filming 555 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:32.889 The Emperor's Naked Army 556 00:17:32.890 --> 00:17:34.809 Marches On, you 557 00:17:34.810 --> 00:17:36.729 got sick of being around 558 00:17:36.730 --> 00:17:37.930 Kenzo Okazaki. 559 00:17:39.580 --> 00:17:41.049 Is that because of him as a 560 00:17:41.050 --> 00:17:43.239 character or the natural 561 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:44.949 result of spending that much time 562 00:17:44.950 --> 00:17:46.719 with someone for you? 563 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:47.720 Okazaki Kenzo 564 00:17:50.980 --> 00:17:53.769 protested the emperor's system, 565 00:17:53.770 --> 00:17:55.359 and to show why he took such an 566 00:17:55.360 --> 00:17:57.549 antagonistic stance, 567 00:17:57.550 --> 00:17:59.199 I thought there might be something 568 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:01.419 we might show connected to the war 569 00:18:01.420 --> 00:18:03.189 and looked around. 570 00:18:03.190 --> 00:18:04.629 I learned that cannibalism took 571 00:18:04.630 --> 00:18:06.519 place on New Guinea and 572 00:18:06.520 --> 00:18:08.649 that men were executed for desertion 573 00:18:08.650 --> 00:18:10.269 even after the official end of the 574 00:18:10.270 --> 00:18:12.969 war on August 15th. 575 00:18:12.970 --> 00:18:15.129 So I decided to have Okazaki 576 00:18:15.130 --> 00:18:16.959 pursue the answer to the question 577 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:18.489 of why something like this would 578 00:18:18.490 --> 00:18:19.869 happen. 579 00:18:19.870 --> 00:18:21.759 Okazaki's pursuit was, at the same 580 00:18:21.760 --> 00:18:23.469 time, his effort to fight the 581 00:18:23.470 --> 00:18:25.389 emperor's system that made this 582 00:18:25.390 --> 00:18:26.679 all possible. 583 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:28.239 Thinking that his fight to find out 584 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:30.069 the truth would also reveal the 585 00:18:30.070 --> 00:18:32.049 system, I suggested 586 00:18:32.050 --> 00:18:33.999 that Okazaki meet with former 587 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:35.979 soldiers and try to expose 588 00:18:35.980 --> 00:18:37.839 the truth that they had hidden for 589 00:18:37.840 --> 00:18:38.840 many years. 590 00:18:39.730 --> 00:18:41.589 Thinking that for Okazaki, 591 00:18:41.590 --> 00:18:43.209 that amounted to the same thing as 592 00:18:43.210 --> 00:18:45.039 grappling with the emperor system 593 00:18:45.040 --> 00:18:46.329 itself. 594 00:18:46.330 --> 00:18:48.879 I think of that lifestyle as 595 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:49.880 the non-everyday. 596 00:18:50.630 --> 00:18:51.880 In the non-everyday, 597 00:18:53.050 --> 00:18:54.879 the protagonist can question his 598 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.129 or her own life philosophy. 599 00:18:57.130 --> 00:18:58.869 That is, I would characterize it as 600 00:18:58.870 --> 00:19:00.106 a struggle for self-liberation. 601 00:19:01.390 --> 00:19:02.709 They were able to accumulate a 602 00:19:02.710 --> 00:19:05.169 series of concrete actions. 603 00:19:05.170 --> 00:19:06.879 I'm able to film those concrete 604 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:08.889 scenes, one after the other, 605 00:19:08.890 --> 00:19:11.139 and some are better than others. 606 00:19:11.140 --> 00:19:13.299 By editing together these scenes, 607 00:19:13.300 --> 00:19:14.529 the sensibility of the main 608 00:19:14.530 --> 00:19:16.330 character comes across visually. 609 00:19:17.380 --> 00:19:19.029 Some shots are more successful than 610 00:19:19.030 --> 00:19:20.889 others, and together they make 611 00:19:20.890 --> 00:19:21.890 up the story. That's 612 00:19:23.140 --> 00:19:24.849 the strategy I've used from the 613 00:19:24.850 --> 00:19:26.649 beginning with my films. 614 00:19:26.650 --> 00:19:29.259 You've expressed skepticism 615 00:19:29.260 --> 00:19:31.629 about the amount of change that 616 00:19:31.630 --> 00:19:34.059 your films or any film 617 00:19:34.060 --> 00:19:35.630 can bring to the world. 618 00:19:37.060 --> 00:19:39.609 But you've also acknowledged that 619 00:19:39.610 --> 00:19:40.869 you think your films can at least 620 00:19:40.870 --> 00:19:42.699 make small ripples - is the 621 00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:44.799 way that it translates. 622 00:19:44.800 --> 00:19:46.569 I wonder, can you talk about this a 623 00:19:46.570 --> 00:19:47.889 little bit with regard to your 624 00:19:47.890 --> 00:19:48.669 newest film? 625 00:19:48.670 --> 00:19:50.529 What kind of ripples, what 626 00:19:50.530 --> 00:19:52.509 kind of small changes do you think 627 00:19:52.510 --> 00:19:54.069 that this film will bring to the 628 00:19:54.070 --> 00:19:54.999 world? 629 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:56.889 Well, let's 630 00:19:56.890 --> 00:19:59.829 just say that Okazaki acts alone. 631 00:19:59.830 --> 00:20:01.899 Taking action as a group presumes 632 00:20:01.900 --> 00:20:03.399 that there will be various opinions 633 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:05.259 about how to proceed. 634 00:20:05.260 --> 00:20:06.849 In order to follow through perfectly 635 00:20:06.850 --> 00:20:08.739 on your own, you won't take into 636 00:20:08.740 --> 00:20:10.299 account other points of view. 637 00:20:11.560 --> 00:20:13.449 He works alone and acts 638 00:20:13.450 --> 00:20:15.819 based on how he sees things. 639 00:20:15.820 --> 00:20:18.279 So he makes absolutely no effort 640 00:20:18.280 --> 00:20:20.440 to compromise or work with others. 641 00:20:21.790 --> 00:20:22.989 It is what it is. 642 00:20:22.990 --> 00:20:24.939 For him to act alone, he 643 00:20:24.940 --> 00:20:26.187 has to establish his own regulations 644 00:20:26.188 --> 00:20:27.759 or rules. 645 00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:30.459 Our opinions were not as fully 646 00:20:30.460 --> 00:20:31.828 formed as his by comparison, so 647 00:20:33.610 --> 00:20:35.589 he often criticized us for 648 00:20:35.590 --> 00:20:37.329 not having the same understanding of 649 00:20:37.330 --> 00:20:40.029 rules and scolded us. 650 00:20:40.030 --> 00:20:42.159 And I don't just mean scold. 651 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:43.389 It was usually in the form of a 652 00:20:43.390 --> 00:20:44.390 lecture. 653 00:20:45.190 --> 00:20:46.749 So naturally, we started to feel 654 00:20:46.750 --> 00:20:48.609 like Mr. Okazaki was a 655 00:20:48.610 --> 00:20:51.219 tough person to interact with. 656 00:20:51.220 --> 00:20:52.599 There were quite a few moments like 657 00:20:52.600 --> 00:20:53.589 that. 658 00:20:53.590 --> 00:20:55.059 We thought, "He's a really difficult 659 00:20:55.060 --> 00:20:56.060 person." 660 00:20:57.100 --> 00:20:59.079 Actually, Okazaki pays almost 661 00:20:59.080 --> 00:21:01.179 no attention to others. 662 00:21:01.180 --> 00:21:02.889 He just announces his thoughts to 663 00:21:02.890 --> 00:21:04.599 those around him. 664 00:21:04.600 --> 00:21:06.549 For example, he uses the word 665 00:21:08.770 --> 00:21:09.969 tenbatsu, or heavenly punishment, 666 00:21:09.970 --> 00:21:11.469 often. 667 00:21:11.470 --> 00:21:12.314 That divine punishment. 668 00:21:12.315 --> 00:21:14.379 That's a tough concept 669 00:21:14.380 --> 00:21:16.689 to comprehend, but Okazaki 670 00:21:16.690 --> 00:21:18.549 says to the patient just released 671 00:21:18.550 --> 00:21:20.619 from the hospital after recovery 672 00:21:20.620 --> 00:21:22.569 from illness that, 673 00:21:22.570 --> 00:21:24.369 "Your sickness is evidence of 674 00:21:24.370 --> 00:21:27.669 heavenly punishment for past sins." 675 00:21:27.670 --> 00:21:29.529 Okazaki says confidently that 676 00:21:29.530 --> 00:21:31.569 he got sick as a result of divine 677 00:21:31.570 --> 00:21:33.189 punishment. 678 00:21:33.190 --> 00:21:35.019 While filming that scene, we all 679 00:21:35.020 --> 00:21:36.268 felt a bit of revulsion that 680 00:21:37.300 --> 00:21:38.799 it was exceedingly harsh to tell a 681 00:21:38.800 --> 00:21:41.259 sick man that he was being punished. 682 00:21:41.260 --> 00:21:42.879 But I have to admit that after 683 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:44.739 listening to him carefully, 684 00:21:44.740 --> 00:21:46.839 I do understand his thought process. 685 00:21:46.840 --> 00:21:48.369 Of course, I don't agree that it's 686 00:21:48.370 --> 00:21:50.229 appropriate to get riled up, 687 00:21:50.230 --> 00:21:52.689 and say that to a sick man. 688 00:21:52.690 --> 00:21:54.519 Okazaki doesn't account for other 689 00:21:54.520 --> 00:21:57.069 people's situations. 690 00:21:57.070 --> 00:21:58.539 He's the type of person who says 691 00:21:58.540 --> 00:22:00.340 just what he's thinking at any time. 692 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:03.369 He has a very rigid sense of his own 693 00:22:03.370 --> 00:22:05.439 rules, and we were left 694 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:07.299 with the feeling that we were always 695 00:22:07.300 --> 00:22:08.829 getting yelled at while filming. 696 00:22:09.970 --> 00:22:12.609 For sure, I resented it at the time. 697 00:22:12.610 --> 00:22:14.349 But now that nearly ten years has 698 00:22:14.350 --> 00:22:16.209 passed since his death, 699 00:22:16.210 --> 00:22:17.499 my resentment toward him has 700 00:22:17.500 --> 00:22:19.719 vanished, and I can think calmly 701 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:21.909 about what you would call his 702 00:22:21.910 --> 00:22:23.249 personal philosophy. 703 00:22:24.310 --> 00:22:25.749 And I now understand his way of 704 00:22:25.750 --> 00:22:26.750 thinking. 705 00:22:27.460 --> 00:22:29.289 Looking back now, I'd say 706 00:22:29.290 --> 00:22:31.539 that Okazaki is the kind of guy 707 00:22:31.540 --> 00:22:33.220 who often caused resentment. 708 00:22:34.270 --> 00:22:36.369 But I do get the way he thought. 709 00:22:36.370 --> 00:22:37.370 Yeah. 710 00:22:37.840 --> 00:22:39.189 This isn't even a question, just a 711 00:22:39.190 --> 00:22:40.059 comment. 712 00:22:40.060 --> 00:22:42.279 There's a character in your movie 713 00:22:42.280 --> 00:22:44.589 about Mitsuharu Inoue, A Dedicated 714 00:22:44.590 --> 00:22:46.989 Life, that 715 00:22:46.990 --> 00:22:49.239 talks about not even 716 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:51.189 knowing that it was possible 717 00:22:51.190 --> 00:22:53.589 to protest. 718 00:22:53.590 --> 00:22:55.417 She didn't even know that oppression 719 00:22:55.418 --> 00:22:57.249 existed, and she kind of was 720 00:22:57.250 --> 00:22:59.109 awakened by 721 00:22:59.110 --> 00:23:00.925 her relationship with Inoue, and 722 00:23:02.380 --> 00:23:04.839 maybe the same kind of thing is 723 00:23:04.840 --> 00:23:07.119 necessary in this case. 724 00:23:07.120 --> 00:23:09.129 To be honest, 725 00:23:09.130 --> 00:23:11.114 my first film, Goodbye CP, 726 00:23:12.190 --> 00:23:14.019 overturned the way that the Japanese 727 00:23:14.020 --> 00:23:16.359 looked at people with disabilities, 728 00:23:16.360 --> 00:23:19.269 including discrimination in society. 729 00:23:19.270 --> 00:23:20.469 It changed quite a bit. 730 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:23.799 I feel like our film brought about a 731 00:23:23.800 --> 00:23:25.449 concrete change in people's 732 00:23:25.450 --> 00:23:26.889 awareness. 733 00:23:26.890 --> 00:23:28.929 I hope to bring about change, 734 00:23:28.930 --> 00:23:30.520 but it's harder to say for sure. 735 00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:34.779 The interpretations vary. 736 00:23:34.780 --> 00:23:36.609 My latest film-- and this 737 00:23:36.610 --> 00:23:38.169 is actually something I'm struggling 738 00:23:38.170 --> 00:23:39.189 with. 739 00:23:39.190 --> 00:23:40.689 Japanese films are screened through 740 00:23:40.690 --> 00:23:42.609 a systematic network of 741 00:23:42.610 --> 00:23:44.439 theaters, and I've screened the 742 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:45.936 film, to be sure, but 743 00:23:47.110 --> 00:23:48.969 regrettably, not many people 744 00:23:48.970 --> 00:23:49.990 came to see it. 745 00:23:51.580 --> 00:23:53.919 That was, for me, a pretty big shock 746 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:55.299 with such an easy to comprehend 747 00:23:55.300 --> 00:23:57.129 message, even 748 00:23:57.130 --> 00:23:58.149 though the response has been 749 00:23:58.150 --> 00:24:00.099 positive, with most saying 750 00:24:00.100 --> 00:24:01.569 that it was a good film and 751 00:24:01.570 --> 00:24:02.919 certainly a film that many should 752 00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:04.209 see. 753 00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:06.039 But audiences have been sparse, 754 00:24:07.630 --> 00:24:09.639 much less than I hoped for or 755 00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:10.809 expected. 756 00:24:10.810 --> 00:24:12.669 Why aren't people coming 757 00:24:12.670 --> 00:24:14.589 to see such a good film? 758 00:24:14.590 --> 00:24:15.789 I have to say I don't really 759 00:24:15.790 --> 00:24:16.790 understand. 760 00:24:17.620 --> 00:24:19.599 This is a film people should see 761 00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:21.009 that I went to great lengths to 762 00:24:21.010 --> 00:24:23.319 make, but Japanese 763 00:24:23.320 --> 00:24:25.989 audiences aren't coming to see it. 764 00:24:25.990 --> 00:24:27.699 It makes me want to say, "Had the 765 00:24:27.700 --> 00:24:29.409 Japanese lost their minds? 766 00:24:30.460 --> 00:24:32.229 Have they become too insensitive to 767 00:24:32.230 --> 00:24:33.939 appreciate films with this kind of 768 00:24:33.940 --> 00:24:36.279 message?" At any rate, 769 00:24:36.280 --> 00:24:37.420 that's how I feel about it. 770 00:24:38.650 --> 00:24:40.719 In point of fact, this film was made 771 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.159 as a kind of self-portrait of 772 00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:44.049 Japanese who have lost 773 00:24:44.050 --> 00:24:45.549 their sensibility. 774 00:24:45.550 --> 00:24:46.959 It's a cat and mouse game, I 775 00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:48.939 suppose, that I made this film 776 00:24:48.940 --> 00:24:50.619 with those likely to question the 777 00:24:50.620 --> 00:24:52.779 status quo in mine. 778 00:24:52.780 --> 00:24:54.699 But I'm trapped, in a sense, 779 00:24:54.700 --> 00:24:57.249 because of small audiences. 780 00:24:57.250 --> 00:24:58.419 I'm not sure how to break through 781 00:24:58.420 --> 00:25:00.519 this problem, but for starters, 782 00:25:00.520 --> 00:25:01.929 I have to show the film to more 783 00:25:01.930 --> 00:25:03.819 audiences and take it from 784 00:25:03.820 --> 00:25:05.169 there. 785 00:25:05.170 --> 00:25:06.849 While I've shown the film for half a 786 00:25:06.850 --> 00:25:09.309 year in theaters, 787 00:25:09.310 --> 00:25:11.349 that run is now over. 788 00:25:11.350 --> 00:25:12.729 And I'm thinking of taking it on the 789 00:25:12.730 --> 00:25:14.859 road myself across Japan, 790 00:25:14.860 --> 00:25:16.599 cooperating with local groups who 791 00:25:16.600 --> 00:25:18.669 are willing to screen the film. 792 00:25:18.670 --> 00:25:21.429 It's not a very flashy approach, but 793 00:25:21.430 --> 00:25:22.899 I'm resigned to the fact that it 794 00:25:22.900 --> 00:25:24.429 will take that kind of effort to 795 00:25:24.430 --> 00:25:25.430 make this happen. 796 00:25:26.350 --> 00:25:27.789 As for the problem of whether the 797 00:25:27.790 --> 00:25:29.949 Japanese sensibility has been dumbed 798 00:25:29.950 --> 00:25:31.839 down, I think this 799 00:25:31.840 --> 00:25:33.789 is an important and fundamental 800 00:25:33.790 --> 00:25:34.719 problem. 801 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:36.759 Postwar Japanese history 802 00:25:36.760 --> 00:25:39.099 tells us that Japan lost the war, 803 00:25:39.100 --> 00:25:41.499 and in a period of extreme poverty, 804 00:25:41.500 --> 00:25:43.479 the Japanese worked hard to make 805 00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:46.239 economic development possible. 806 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:48.459 Now that those peak years are gone, 807 00:25:48.460 --> 00:25:50.169 we are in a period of economic 808 00:25:50.170 --> 00:25:51.170 decline. 809 00:25:52.060 --> 00:25:53.799 At one time, the Japanese had a lot 810 00:25:53.800 --> 00:25:56.049 of energy and worked hard. 811 00:25:56.050 --> 00:25:58.029 Now that the peak has passed, 812 00:25:58.030 --> 00:25:59.920 that energy has also faded away. 813 00:26:00.940 --> 00:26:02.259 I'll say it clearly. 814 00:26:02.260 --> 00:26:03.699 I think that those in power in 815 00:26:03.700 --> 00:26:06.099 Japan, and here I mean explicitly 816 00:26:06.100 --> 00:26:08.109 the Abe government, are trying 817 00:26:08.110 --> 00:26:10.269 to undermine and destroy the postwar 818 00:26:10.270 --> 00:26:13.049 democracy set up after the war. 819 00:26:13.050 --> 00:26:14.379 What I mean is that the government 820 00:26:14.380 --> 00:26:16.239 is trying to restructure military 821 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:18.099 power and turn Japan into 822 00:26:18.100 --> 00:26:20.289 a country that can wage war, 823 00:26:20.290 --> 00:26:21.339 which is an important key. 824 00:26:22.540 --> 00:26:23.889 I think the Japanese people are 825 00:26:23.890 --> 00:26:25.869 unaware of this, and although 826 00:26:25.870 --> 00:26:28.449 this isn't a new problem per se, 827 00:26:28.450 --> 00:26:30.129 it's lamentable that the Japanese 828 00:26:30.130 --> 00:26:32.049 have been largely unable to display 829 00:26:32.050 --> 00:26:33.549 the will to fight against this 830 00:26:33.550 --> 00:26:34.809 power. 831 00:26:34.810 --> 00:26:36.669 Analyzing the situation in order 832 00:26:36.670 --> 00:26:38.589 to overcome it is a task 833 00:26:38.590 --> 00:26:40.120 that is slowly coming to light. 834 00:26:41.560 --> 00:26:43.249 So I said that postwar Japan 835 00:26:43.250 --> 00:26:44.250 succeeded economically, but 836 00:26:45.550 --> 00:26:47.140 what precisely does that mean? 837 00:26:48.370 --> 00:26:50.319 Were we truly, fundamentally able 838 00:26:50.320 --> 00:26:52.179 to marshal our energy? 839 00:26:52.180 --> 00:26:53.859 Probably not. 840 00:26:53.860 --> 00:26:55.719 That energy was somehow bent 841 00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:57.249 off course. 842 00:26:57.250 --> 00:26:59.170 Our fangs were somehow blunted. 843 00:27:00.310 --> 00:27:02.199 I can't help but feel that somewhere 844 00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.179 along the line, we lost 845 00:27:04.180 --> 00:27:05.180 our teeth. 846 00:27:06.220 --> 00:27:07.899 So I'm left with the strong feeling 847 00:27:07.900 --> 00:27:10.269 that we need, of necessity, 848 00:27:10.270 --> 00:27:11.859 to rethink all that we know about 849 00:27:11.860 --> 00:27:14.139 postwar history. 850 00:27:14.140 --> 00:27:16.059 Put simply, considering 851 00:27:16.060 --> 00:27:18.699 the limited audiences for my film, 852 00:27:18.700 --> 00:27:20.469 it's not just that the Japanese have 853 00:27:20.470 --> 00:27:22.359 lost their energy, but rather 854 00:27:22.360 --> 00:27:23.859 it's evidence of a certain kind of 855 00:27:23.860 --> 00:27:26.469 postwar process or historical 856 00:27:26.470 --> 00:27:27.549 formation. 857 00:27:27.550 --> 00:27:29.319 It draws the eye. 858 00:27:29.320 --> 00:27:31.479 It calls attention to itself. 859 00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:32.949 I'm left thinking that it's part of 860 00:27:32.950 --> 00:27:34.689 a larger problem. 861 00:27:34.690 --> 00:27:36.519 Given the scale of the problem, I'm 862 00:27:36.520 --> 00:27:38.049 not in a position to casually 863 00:27:38.050 --> 00:27:39.909 suggest a few concrete steps 864 00:27:39.910 --> 00:27:41.499 we can take to resolve it. 865 00:27:41.500 --> 00:27:43.869 But for starters, we must recognize 866 00:27:43.870 --> 00:27:45.699 as fact that our energy 867 00:27:45.700 --> 00:27:47.229 has waned. 868 00:27:47.230 --> 00:27:49.209 Unless we work resolutely to rethink 869 00:27:49.210 --> 00:27:51.099 our way of life, I think 870 00:27:51.100 --> 00:27:52.599 it's unlikely that we will find an 871 00:27:52.600 --> 00:27:53.549 answer. 872 00:27:53.550 --> 00:27:54.849 Yeah, I mean, I guess I would just 873 00:27:54.850 --> 00:27:56.919 say that's why it's been an honor 874 00:27:56.920 --> 00:27:58.449 for me to get to watch all of your-- 875 00:27:58.450 --> 00:28:00.099 so many of your films and get to 876 00:28:00.100 --> 00:28:00.879 know your work. 877 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:02.169 It seems to me that's why it's so 878 00:28:02.170 --> 00:28:04.209 important, and it's been-- 879 00:28:04.210 --> 00:28:05.439 I don't think it's just a problem in 880 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:07.299 Japan. And it's 881 00:28:07.300 --> 00:28:08.949 been an honor to have you here. 882 00:28:08.950 --> 00:28:10.929 And congratulations on your award. 883 00:28:10.930 --> 00:28:12.909 Thank you very 884 00:28:12.910 --> 00:28:13.910 much. 885 00:28:14.500 --> 00:28:15.819 That's it for this edition of Being 886 00:28:15.820 --> 00:28:17.769 Human. This episode was produced by 887 00:28:17.770 --> 00:28:19.389 Noah Livingston, Humanities Media 888 00:28:19.390 --> 00:28:20.409 Fellow at the University of 889 00:28:20.410 --> 00:28:21.279 Pittsburgh. 890 00:28:21.280 --> 00:28:22.779 It was translated and recorded in 891 00:28:22.780 --> 00:28:24.489 English by Charles Exley, professor 892 00:28:24.490 --> 00:28:25.869 of Modern Japanese Literature and 893 00:28:25.870 --> 00:28:26.739 Film at Pitt. 894 00:28:26.740 --> 00:28:28.299 Special thanks to Hitomi Mullen for 895 00:28:28.300 --> 00:28:29.649 interpreting during the interview 896 00:28:29.650 --> 00:28:31.179 and everyone else who helped produce 897 00:28:31.180 --> 00:28:32.679 and review the script. 898 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:34.029 Stay tuned next time for a special 899 00:28:34.030 --> 00:28:35.829 interview with Somali novelist 900 00:28:35.830 --> 00:28:36.729 Nuruddin Farah. 901 00:28:36.730 --> 00:28:37.730 Thanks for listening.
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