WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.220 --> 00:00:03.419 Hello and welcome to the latest 2 00:00:03.420 --> 00:00:04.739 installment of Being Human from the 3 00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:06.389 University of Pittsburgh. 4 00:00:06.390 --> 00:00:08.188 This series is devoted to exploring 5 00:00:08.189 --> 00:00:09.779 the humanities, their connections to 6 00:00:09.780 --> 00:00:11.309 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:11.310 --> 00:00:12.779 in the public world. 8 00:00:12.780 --> 00:00:14.549 I'm Dan Kubis, associate director of 9 00:00:14.550 --> 00:00:15.959 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:17.459 My guest today is Noël Carroll, 11 00:00:17.460 --> 00:00:18.809 professor of Philosophy at the 12 00:00:18.810 --> 00:00:20.759 Graduate Center, City University 13 00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:22.019 of New York. Carroll is one of the 14 00:00:22.020 --> 00:00:23.399 country's leading philosophers of 15 00:00:23.400 --> 00:00:25.229 art and has written widely on film, 16 00:00:25.230 --> 00:00:26.999 literature, the visual arts, and 17 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:28.169 aesthetics. 18 00:00:28.170 --> 00:00:29.369 But since he was in Pittsburgh 19 00:00:29.370 --> 00:00:30.779 during our city's celebration of the 20 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:32.699 50th anniversary of George Romero's 21 00:00:32.700 --> 00:00:34.379 Night of the Living Dead, we decided 22 00:00:34.380 --> 00:00:36.209 to focus our conversation on horror 23 00:00:36.210 --> 00:00:37.709 and Carroll's groundbreaking book, 24 00:00:37.710 --> 00:00:39.269 The Philosophy of Horror, or 25 00:00:39.270 --> 00:00:40.799 Paradoxes of the Heart. 26 00:00:40.800 --> 00:00:42.179 When Carroll published this book in 27 00:00:42.180 --> 00:00:44.039 1990, horror criticism was 28 00:00:44.040 --> 00:00:46.169 not a well-established field. 29 00:00:46.170 --> 00:00:47.279 Noël has claimed that he wrote it in 30 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:48.749 part to convince his parents that 31 00:00:48.750 --> 00:00:49.859 all the time he's been watching 32 00:00:49.860 --> 00:00:51.779 horror films wasn't a waste of time. 33 00:00:51.780 --> 00:00:53.159 Through the years, though, Carroll's 34 00:00:53.160 --> 00:00:54.299 book has become an important 35 00:00:54.300 --> 00:00:56.189 resource, both for its contributions 36 00:00:56.190 --> 00:00:58.019 to film criticism and because of the 37 00:00:58.020 --> 00:00:59.789 richness of the definition of horror 38 00:00:59.790 --> 00:01:00.719 it proposes. 39 00:01:00.720 --> 00:01:02.339 Horror, as he defines it, includes 40 00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:03.959 works of art that feature a monster 41 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:05.909 who inspires both fear and disgust 42 00:01:05.910 --> 00:01:07.199 in other characters. 43 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:08.609 Many critics have objected to this 44 00:01:08.610 --> 00:01:10.259 definition's reliance on audience 45 00:01:10.260 --> 00:01:11.789 reactions, and many others have 46 00:01:11.790 --> 00:01:13.289 disputed the boundaries it stakes 47 00:01:13.290 --> 00:01:14.099 out. 48 00:01:14.100 --> 00:01:15.269 It's clear, though, that the book 49 00:01:15.270 --> 00:01:16.829 has made an enduring contribution to 50 00:01:16.830 --> 00:01:18.659 film and horror studies 51 00:01:18.660 --> 00:01:20.099 and that it continues to inspire 52 00:01:20.100 --> 00:01:21.479 productive debate. 53 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:22.799 It's also clear from the book's 54 00:01:22.800 --> 00:01:24.689 humor and energy that Carroll 55 00:01:24.690 --> 00:01:26.639 wrote it about a subject he loved. 56 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:28.289 So I began by asking him about that 57 00:01:28.290 --> 00:01:30.209 love and about what motivated him to 58 00:01:30.210 --> 00:01:31.679 write The Philosophy of Horror. 59 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:33.299 Thanks for coming in, Noël Carroll, 60 00:01:33.300 --> 00:01:34.300 first of all. 61 00:01:35.550 --> 00:01:37.529 I want to begin by asking you about 62 00:01:37.530 --> 00:01:39.509 your work in horror 63 00:01:39.510 --> 00:01:40.799 criticism. I want to ask you about 64 00:01:40.800 --> 00:01:42.389 The Philosophy of Horror. 65 00:01:42.390 --> 00:01:44.279 You published that book in 1990. 66 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:45.539 We just kind of like talked about 67 00:01:45.540 --> 00:01:46.739 this a little bit. 68 00:01:46.740 --> 00:01:48.419 In an interview that you gave a few 69 00:01:48.420 --> 00:01:49.799 years ago, you mentioned that you 70 00:01:49.800 --> 00:01:51.329 wrote the book out of love and that 71 00:01:51.330 --> 00:01:52.889 you had a lot of fun writing it. 72 00:01:52.890 --> 00:01:53.819 So I wonder if you can just talk a 73 00:01:53.820 --> 00:01:55.199 little bit about that, about the 74 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:57.059 process of writing the book and what 75 00:01:57.060 --> 00:01:59.129 motivated you to do it and that 76 00:01:59.130 --> 00:02:00.059 kind of thing. 77 00:02:00.060 --> 00:02:01.949 Well, the book-- 78 00:02:01.950 --> 00:02:03.989 it's true that once I started 79 00:02:03.990 --> 00:02:06.179 writing it, I loved writing it. 80 00:02:06.180 --> 00:02:08.038 But the way it came about 81 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:09.039 was a little bit 82 00:02:10.710 --> 00:02:11.819 more accidental. 83 00:02:11.820 --> 00:02:14.759 I was an untenured faculty professor 84 00:02:14.760 --> 00:02:17.759 at Wesleyan and 85 00:02:17.760 --> 00:02:19.499 should have been very conscious 86 00:02:19.500 --> 00:02:21.509 about what I was writing in order 87 00:02:21.510 --> 00:02:23.309 to get tenure. 88 00:02:23.310 --> 00:02:25.139 And for that reason, I never 89 00:02:25.140 --> 00:02:26.549 would have written a book called The 90 00:02:26.550 --> 00:02:28.379 Philosophy of Horror because it 91 00:02:28.380 --> 00:02:30.255 would have gone to reviewers at 92 00:02:30.256 --> 00:02:32.009 academic presses, and the reviewers 93 00:02:32.010 --> 00:02:33.869 would all write in 94 00:02:33.870 --> 00:02:35.759 their reviews there is no such thing 95 00:02:35.760 --> 00:02:37.469 as the philosophy of horror. 96 00:02:37.470 --> 00:02:39.509 So I never would have written 97 00:02:39.510 --> 00:02:40.379 it. 98 00:02:40.380 --> 00:02:42.509 But what actually came about 99 00:02:42.510 --> 00:02:44.369 was Rutledge had a 100 00:02:44.370 --> 00:02:46.679 series of 101 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:48.719 very short books on 102 00:02:48.720 --> 00:02:50.159 British authors. 103 00:02:50.160 --> 00:02:52.109 And I proposed that I would 104 00:02:52.110 --> 00:02:54.269 write the one on John 105 00:02:54.270 --> 00:02:56.189 Wyndham, who wrote 106 00:02:56.190 --> 00:02:58.589 a lot of horror novels. 107 00:02:58.590 --> 00:03:00.449 Some of them were adapted into 108 00:03:00.450 --> 00:03:02.579 two films, the 109 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:04.529 most famous being maybe Village 110 00:03:04.530 --> 00:03:05.530 of the Damned. 111 00:03:07.590 --> 00:03:09.059 Probably that was the most famous. 112 00:03:09.060 --> 00:03:10.799 Anyway, I said I would be happy to 113 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:11.999 write that book. 114 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:13.829 And I approached the 115 00:03:13.830 --> 00:03:16.049 New York editor of Rutledge. 116 00:03:16.050 --> 00:03:17.999 He said, "You can't 117 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.559 write that book because that's a 118 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:21.539 British Routledge series, and 119 00:03:21.540 --> 00:03:23.399 they only want Brits writing about 120 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:25.469 Brits." And then he said, 121 00:03:25.470 --> 00:03:27.299 "But I would take a philosophy 122 00:03:27.300 --> 00:03:29.129 of horror from 123 00:03:29.130 --> 00:03:30.895 you." There had been 124 00:03:32.950 --> 00:03:34.427 a seminar on it at the 125 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:39.969 Museum of the Moving Image 126 00:03:39.970 --> 00:03:41.739 in Astoria. And he had seen that 127 00:03:41.740 --> 00:03:43.569 Stanley Cavell was there and some 128 00:03:43.570 --> 00:03:45.399 other people. So he said, "Well, I 129 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:48.069 saw your title at that 130 00:03:48.070 --> 00:03:49.689 symposium, the philosophy of 131 00:03:49.690 --> 00:03:50.529 horror." He said, "If you want to write 132 00:03:50.530 --> 00:03:51.530 a book on that, I 133 00:03:52.540 --> 00:03:54.519 would do it." And of course, 134 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:56.199 since he was willing to offer me a 135 00:03:56.200 --> 00:03:58.029 contract and I didn't 136 00:03:58.030 --> 00:03:59.799 have to worry about reviewers saying 137 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:01.719 there is no such thing, 138 00:04:01.720 --> 00:04:03.579 I said, "Sure, I'll 139 00:04:03.580 --> 00:04:04.989 write it." And that's actually how 140 00:04:04.990 --> 00:04:06.369 it had came about. 141 00:04:06.370 --> 00:04:08.229 I never, ever, 142 00:04:08.230 --> 00:04:10.059 at that point in my career, 143 00:04:10.060 --> 00:04:12.219 would have thought of it as possible 144 00:04:12.220 --> 00:04:14.349 had an editor not offered 145 00:04:14.350 --> 00:04:15.159 it to me. 146 00:04:15.160 --> 00:04:16.989 And then in terms of saying 147 00:04:16.990 --> 00:04:19.028 I loved it, I loved writing 148 00:04:19.029 --> 00:04:21.009 it, but that isn't 149 00:04:21.010 --> 00:04:22.899 what got 150 00:04:22.900 --> 00:04:24.519 me to start writing it. 151 00:04:24.520 --> 00:04:25.959 That's really interesting. 152 00:04:25.960 --> 00:04:27.999 But then you-- but you did have-- 153 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:29.799 you have been a huge fan of the 154 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:30.609 genre all your life. 155 00:04:30.610 --> 00:04:32.499 You talked about how 156 00:04:32.500 --> 00:04:34.389 you went to efforts to get to 157 00:04:34.390 --> 00:04:36.339 see shows on TV 158 00:04:36.340 --> 00:04:37.629 and to get new books and things like 159 00:04:37.630 --> 00:04:38.499 that when you were a kid, so when 160 00:04:38.500 --> 00:04:39.639 you were offered the opportunity, 161 00:04:39.640 --> 00:04:40.839 you were ready. 162 00:04:40.840 --> 00:04:42.909 Well, as I like to say, 163 00:04:42.910 --> 00:04:45.399 I was the kid in Catholic school 164 00:04:45.400 --> 00:04:47.289 who liked the page 165 00:04:47.290 --> 00:04:49.989 of the Baltimore catechism, 166 00:04:49.990 --> 00:04:51.789 where the people were burning in 167 00:04:51.790 --> 00:04:53.709 hell, and the demons were dancing 168 00:04:53.710 --> 00:04:55.329 around the flames. 169 00:04:55.330 --> 00:04:57.489 And ever since then, 170 00:04:57.490 --> 00:04:59.799 I've been 171 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:00.852 drawn to the genre. 172 00:05:02.320 --> 00:05:04.329 I know you still 173 00:05:04.330 --> 00:05:06.219 are. You still watch a lot of 174 00:05:06.220 --> 00:05:07.360 horror films that come out. 175 00:05:08.440 --> 00:05:10.509 And I want to ask you about 176 00:05:10.510 --> 00:05:12.339 something that I read 177 00:05:12.340 --> 00:05:13.929 over the summer in The New York 178 00:05:13.930 --> 00:05:14.859 Times. 179 00:05:14.860 --> 00:05:16.869 They were writing about 180 00:05:18.460 --> 00:05:19.809 what they said was a new kind of 181 00:05:19.810 --> 00:05:20.919 horror movie, and they called it 182 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:21.799 grown-up horror. 183 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:23.289 Right? And I'm thinking of films 184 00:05:23.290 --> 00:05:25.719 like Get Out and The Babadook 185 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:27.669 and Hereditary and other 186 00:05:27.670 --> 00:05:28.869 movies like that. 187 00:05:28.870 --> 00:05:31.119 The kind of the distinction 188 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:32.259 they were drawing there was that 189 00:05:32.260 --> 00:05:34.179 there weren't monsters, and there 190 00:05:34.180 --> 00:05:35.799 weren't zombies, and there weren't 191 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:36.759 whatever else. 192 00:05:36.760 --> 00:05:39.129 Instead, the horror came from 193 00:05:39.130 --> 00:05:40.130 things like 194 00:05:40.990 --> 00:05:42.789 grief or family members dying, or 195 00:05:42.790 --> 00:05:44.439 things that happen in our real 196 00:05:44.440 --> 00:05:46.089 lives, or something like that. 197 00:05:46.090 --> 00:05:47.979 I just wonder what your thought on 198 00:05:47.980 --> 00:05:49.329 that distinction that The New York 199 00:05:49.330 --> 00:05:51.189 Times was just drawing? 200 00:05:51.190 --> 00:05:52.899 Well, I don't find it very 201 00:05:52.900 --> 00:05:53.900 convincing. 202 00:05:55.060 --> 00:05:56.060 As 203 00:05:57.340 --> 00:05:59.769 film historians know, the universal 204 00:05:59.770 --> 00:06:02.019 horror films from the thirties: 205 00:06:02.020 --> 00:06:04.419 Dracula, Frankenstein, 206 00:06:04.420 --> 00:06:06.190 The Mummy, and the Invisible Man. 207 00:06:07.540 --> 00:06:09.789 Those were films for the 208 00:06:09.790 --> 00:06:12.069 whole family. 209 00:06:12.070 --> 00:06:14.409 They were considered to be serious 210 00:06:14.410 --> 00:06:15.410 films. 211 00:06:16.330 --> 00:06:18.069 When I was growing up, certainly, 212 00:06:18.070 --> 00:06:19.599 there were films like Rosemary's 213 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:21.189 Baby and The Exorcist that were 214 00:06:21.190 --> 00:06:23.349 considered-- and 215 00:06:23.350 --> 00:06:25.059 they came from literary properties 216 00:06:25.060 --> 00:06:26.649 that were also considered to be 217 00:06:27.730 --> 00:06:28.730 quite serious. 218 00:06:29.590 --> 00:06:31.659 So the idea that we suddenly 219 00:06:31.660 --> 00:06:33.219 got adult films, I think, is 220 00:06:33.220 --> 00:06:34.279 mistaken. 221 00:06:34.280 --> 00:06:35.949 Well, also, I think it's sort of 222 00:06:35.950 --> 00:06:37.839 wrong to take that triplet that 223 00:06:37.840 --> 00:06:40.569 you just mentioned and 224 00:06:40.570 --> 00:06:42.387 say there's no monsters in them. 225 00:06:42.388 --> 00:06:43.388 After 226 00:06:44.380 --> 00:06:46.509 all, the 227 00:06:46.510 --> 00:06:48.609 grandfather and the grandmother in 228 00:06:48.610 --> 00:06:50.086 Get Out are 229 00:06:52.180 --> 00:06:54.009 monstrous figures, the product 230 00:06:54.010 --> 00:06:55.010 of 231 00:06:56.100 --> 00:06:57.610 an experiment 232 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:00.189 that I think we would think of as an 233 00:07:00.190 --> 00:07:02.169 inhuman experiment. 234 00:07:02.170 --> 00:07:03.759 There certainly is a monster, the 235 00:07:03.760 --> 00:07:06.579 guard, at the end of Hereditary. 236 00:07:06.580 --> 00:07:08.499 I mean, of the three, the only 237 00:07:08.500 --> 00:07:10.689 one that really captures 238 00:07:10.690 --> 00:07:11.690 is 239 00:07:12.940 --> 00:07:13.989 Babadook. 240 00:07:13.990 --> 00:07:15.459 And then the other kind of films 241 00:07:15.460 --> 00:07:16.460 that would be in 242 00:07:18.430 --> 00:07:20.477 that category, like It follows. 243 00:07:21.670 --> 00:07:23.028 There are many monsters in that and 244 00:07:23.029 --> 00:07:24.879 everything that does 245 00:07:24.880 --> 00:07:26.139 the It following. 246 00:07:26.140 --> 00:07:27.969 Quiet Place actually has 247 00:07:27.970 --> 00:07:29.229 aliens in it. 248 00:07:29.230 --> 00:07:30.230 So 249 00:07:31.900 --> 00:07:33.099 I don't think actually that 250 00:07:33.100 --> 00:07:34.539 distinction works either. 251 00:07:34.540 --> 00:07:36.459 Historically, it's not the 252 00:07:36.460 --> 00:07:38.769 first kind of horror films 253 00:07:38.770 --> 00:07:41.979 that were considered mainstream, 254 00:07:41.980 --> 00:07:44.469 and it doesn't actually work 255 00:07:44.470 --> 00:07:45.979 completely well for that particular 256 00:07:47.770 --> 00:07:49.659 group. Now, that group of 257 00:07:49.660 --> 00:07:51.729 films, I 258 00:07:51.730 --> 00:07:54.459 would concede, are certainly 259 00:07:54.460 --> 00:07:57.429 more sophisticated 260 00:07:57.430 --> 00:07:59.889 than an episode 261 00:07:59.890 --> 00:08:02.289 on TV of The Walking Dead. 262 00:08:02.290 --> 00:08:04.209 They're more complicated in 263 00:08:04.210 --> 00:08:06.249 terms of their narratives. 264 00:08:06.250 --> 00:08:08.409 Some of their social 265 00:08:08.410 --> 00:08:11.139 inflection is more complicated. 266 00:08:11.140 --> 00:08:12.999 So I wouldn't deny 267 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:14.000 that. But for 268 00:08:15.550 --> 00:08:17.379 almost any period you could 269 00:08:17.380 --> 00:08:18.380 look at 270 00:08:19.960 --> 00:08:21.909 the history of the horror 271 00:08:21.910 --> 00:08:23.500 genre, there have been - I 272 00:08:24.970 --> 00:08:26.019 don't know what you would want to 273 00:08:26.020 --> 00:08:27.140 call - the 274 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.000 more ambitious and 275 00:08:34.450 --> 00:08:35.439 the less ambitious. 276 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:36.999 I guess I would want to say. 277 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:38.979 I mean, Melmoth the Wanderer was 278 00:08:38.980 --> 00:08:40.298 very ambitious. 279 00:08:40.299 --> 00:08:41.499 But at the same time, 280 00:08:43.179 --> 00:08:44.179 that novel was written 281 00:08:45.580 --> 00:08:47.619 in the early 19th century. 282 00:08:47.620 --> 00:08:49.899 There was a series called Varney 283 00:08:49.900 --> 00:08:51.429 the Vampire. 284 00:08:51.430 --> 00:08:53.829 And Varney the Vampire 285 00:08:53.830 --> 00:08:56.229 was just a 286 00:08:56.230 --> 00:08:57.309 shocker serial. 287 00:08:58.950 --> 00:09:00.059 I wonder, just as a follow-up to 288 00:09:00.060 --> 00:09:02.639 that, where does the idea 289 00:09:02.640 --> 00:09:04.949 that horror films 290 00:09:04.950 --> 00:09:06.149 are for kids-- right? 291 00:09:06.150 --> 00:09:08.459 The whole category of grown-up 292 00:09:08.460 --> 00:09:10.589 genre being the kind of category 293 00:09:10.590 --> 00:09:12.629 that this writer used to talk 294 00:09:12.630 --> 00:09:14.009 about these new films. 295 00:09:14.010 --> 00:09:15.149 Where does that come from? 296 00:09:15.150 --> 00:09:17.609 Is it just a matter of only 297 00:09:17.610 --> 00:09:19.229 paying attention to the least 298 00:09:19.230 --> 00:09:20.404 sophisticated of 299 00:09:22.980 --> 00:09:24.117 horror films at any given time or-- 300 00:09:24.118 --> 00:09:24.959 I don't know? 301 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:26.519 What are your thoughts on that? 302 00:09:26.520 --> 00:09:29.339 Well, if you look at the 303 00:09:29.340 --> 00:09:31.319 cycle of 304 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:32.320 horror films, 305 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:35.233 the Universal's thirty 306 00:09:35.234 --> 00:09:37.229 cycle is an early cycle, which 307 00:09:37.230 --> 00:09:38.729 are those films that I just 308 00:09:38.730 --> 00:09:41.009 mentioned: Frankenstein, Dracula, 309 00:09:41.010 --> 00:09:42.239 Invisible Man. 310 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:44.159 Then at the end of the thirties 311 00:09:44.160 --> 00:09:46.739 and the early forties, Universal 312 00:09:46.740 --> 00:09:49.079 revives those 313 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:51.209 films, including 314 00:09:51.210 --> 00:09:53.129 things like Abbott and Costello Meet 315 00:09:53.130 --> 00:09:54.889 Frankenstein. And those films 316 00:09:56.400 --> 00:09:58.349 are simpler and less 317 00:09:58.350 --> 00:10:00.599 ambitious than the earlier 318 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:01.559 ones. 319 00:10:01.560 --> 00:10:03.749 But at the very same time, 320 00:10:03.750 --> 00:10:05.039 Val Lewton is making films like the 321 00:10:05.040 --> 00:10:06.989 Cat People that are 322 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:09.329 actually fairly 323 00:10:09.330 --> 00:10:10.289 sophisticated. 324 00:10:10.290 --> 00:10:11.610 So you do have 325 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:14.549 a series of films 326 00:10:14.550 --> 00:10:16.679 that are being made for 327 00:10:16.680 --> 00:10:17.879 a younger audience, 328 00:10:18.900 --> 00:10:20.909 but at 329 00:10:20.910 --> 00:10:23.129 the same time, they're 330 00:10:23.130 --> 00:10:25.169 a set of more 331 00:10:25.170 --> 00:10:26.399 sophisticated films. 332 00:10:26.400 --> 00:10:28.319 So as I said, I think 333 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:30.172 for any period you can mention 334 00:10:31.380 --> 00:10:33.689 they'll be low-ambition 335 00:10:33.690 --> 00:10:34.690 and high-ambition 336 00:10:35.910 --> 00:10:38.129 films so that, in the fifties, 337 00:10:38.130 --> 00:10:40.499 when the science fiction cycle 338 00:10:40.500 --> 00:10:42.599 begins, you're going to have, 339 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:45.419 on the one hand, a film like 340 00:10:45.420 --> 00:10:47.339 Forbidden Planet, which is an 341 00:10:47.340 --> 00:10:49.049 adaptation of Shakespeare's The 342 00:10:49.050 --> 00:10:50.050 Tempest 343 00:10:50.910 --> 00:10:53.069 and a fairly 344 00:10:53.070 --> 00:10:55.769 high, even literary, quality. 345 00:10:55.770 --> 00:10:57.400 And then you're going to have 346 00:10:59.280 --> 00:11:01.259 very low-ambition films like, 347 00:11:01.260 --> 00:11:04.199 you know, Robot Monster or, 348 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:05.939 I don't know, Plan Nine from Outer 349 00:11:05.940 --> 00:11:07.259 Space. 350 00:11:07.260 --> 00:11:08.260 So 351 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:11.579 there are going to 352 00:11:11.580 --> 00:11:12.580 be 353 00:11:13.560 --> 00:11:14.560 different 354 00:11:15.930 --> 00:11:18.389 markets being appealed to. 355 00:11:18.390 --> 00:11:20.519 Now, I think maybe the reason that 356 00:11:21.660 --> 00:11:23.969 a reviewer of a certain 357 00:11:23.970 --> 00:11:26.129 age may 358 00:11:27.180 --> 00:11:28.889 try to make this distinction is 359 00:11:28.890 --> 00:11:31.049 because when 360 00:11:31.050 --> 00:11:33.179 they were growing up, 361 00:11:33.180 --> 00:11:36.149 the horror films they saw 362 00:11:36.150 --> 00:11:39.329 were on the low ambition 363 00:11:39.330 --> 00:11:40.330 range, 364 00:11:41.520 --> 00:11:44.129 slasher films, or 365 00:11:44.130 --> 00:11:45.130 worse. 366 00:11:45.540 --> 00:11:47.039 That's what they saw. 367 00:11:47.040 --> 00:11:48.569 And then now they're suddenly seeing 368 00:11:48.570 --> 00:11:50.759 these other films, and they look 369 00:11:50.760 --> 00:11:53.009 far more sophisticated. 370 00:11:53.010 --> 00:11:55.289 I think, when you hear a distinction 371 00:11:55.290 --> 00:11:57.749 like that, it's less historically 372 00:11:57.750 --> 00:12:00.239 accurate and more a function of 373 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:01.799 the biography of the person who's 374 00:12:01.800 --> 00:12:02.910 making the distinction. 375 00:12:04.920 --> 00:12:07.110 When he or she was an adolescent, 376 00:12:08.280 --> 00:12:10.889 went to see films 377 00:12:10.890 --> 00:12:13.319 that were, 378 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:14.320 as you said, maybe, 379 00:12:15.630 --> 00:12:17.322 Friday the 13th, 24, or 380 00:12:20.040 --> 00:12:22.139 Nightmare on Elm Street, 381 00:12:22.140 --> 00:12:23.140 41. 382 00:12:27.330 --> 00:12:29.189 So, I want to ask you another thing 383 00:12:29.190 --> 00:12:30.359 that comes from The Philosophy of 384 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:31.499 Horror, your book. 385 00:12:32.550 --> 00:12:33.622 One of the things 386 00:12:34.950 --> 00:12:36.698 that you talk about in that book - 387 00:12:38.040 --> 00:12:39.239 one of the arguments you make - is 388 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:41.759 that the characters 389 00:12:41.760 --> 00:12:44.099 in the film suggest 390 00:12:44.100 --> 00:12:46.259 how audience members will react 391 00:12:46.260 --> 00:12:47.359 to the monsters in them. 392 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:48.569 Right? And that is the fear and 393 00:12:48.570 --> 00:12:51.419 disgust are the two kind of 394 00:12:51.420 --> 00:12:53.189 essential ingredients, let's say, to 395 00:12:53.190 --> 00:12:54.729 have in a horror film. 396 00:12:57.660 --> 00:12:59.669 I thought too, about-- so 397 00:12:59.670 --> 00:13:00.659 thinking about that kind of 398 00:13:00.660 --> 00:13:02.159 connection between characters in the 399 00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:03.650 film and in audience, another 400 00:13:05.550 --> 00:13:07.799 kind of connection that I 401 00:13:07.800 --> 00:13:09.689 see in horror films 402 00:13:09.690 --> 00:13:12.209 is kind of how the 403 00:13:12.210 --> 00:13:14.399 audience wants to participate 404 00:13:14.400 --> 00:13:16.049 in trying to make suggestions about 405 00:13:16.050 --> 00:13:17.609 how characters should get away from 406 00:13:17.610 --> 00:13:18.569 the monsters. I mean, this is a 407 00:13:18.570 --> 00:13:19.919 classic thing about like watching 408 00:13:19.920 --> 00:13:21.209 horror films and yelling like, 409 00:13:21.210 --> 00:13:22.259 "Don't go into the shed. 410 00:13:22.260 --> 00:13:23.609 Like, that's a terrible idea. 411 00:13:23.610 --> 00:13:24.449 They're definitely going to get you 412 00:13:24.450 --> 00:13:26.219 there." That kind of thing. 413 00:13:26.220 --> 00:13:27.220 I wonder 414 00:13:28.050 --> 00:13:28.919 if you can just say a little bit 415 00:13:28.920 --> 00:13:29.819 about that, that kind of 416 00:13:29.820 --> 00:13:30.899 participatory 417 00:13:33.270 --> 00:13:35.109 aspect of horror films? 418 00:13:35.110 --> 00:13:36.359 Is that something that stands out 419 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:38.309 about them more so than other kinds 420 00:13:38.310 --> 00:13:39.310 of film? 421 00:13:41.920 --> 00:13:43.509 Well, the first thing about that 422 00:13:43.510 --> 00:13:45.369 kind of interaction, I 423 00:13:45.370 --> 00:13:46.370 think, is that it's 424 00:13:49.500 --> 00:13:52.649 pretty class specific. 425 00:13:52.650 --> 00:13:53.650 That is to say, 426 00:13:56.070 --> 00:13:58.049 in certain 427 00:13:58.050 --> 00:13:59.050 neighborhoods, the 428 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:02.069 lookout responds, 429 00:14:02.070 --> 00:14:03.070 "Don't go there." 430 00:14:08.970 --> 00:14:10.319 I remember seeing the first 431 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:11.551 Halloween at the 432 00:14:13.770 --> 00:14:16.289 Times Square movie theater, 433 00:14:16.290 --> 00:14:18.539 and the audience 434 00:14:18.540 --> 00:14:20.489 was very much, "Get out of there." 435 00:14:20.490 --> 00:14:22.439 Or in other 436 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.449 movies, "Don't go down-- don't 437 00:14:24.450 --> 00:14:26.309 go up to the attic or don't go 438 00:14:26.310 --> 00:14:28.199 down in the cellar or don't go down 439 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.779 the alley." And 440 00:14:30.780 --> 00:14:33.029 the audiences that were 441 00:14:33.030 --> 00:14:34.859 more likely to do that 442 00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:36.063 were in 443 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.200 cinemas that 444 00:14:39.780 --> 00:14:40.780 were-- well, 445 00:14:42.780 --> 00:14:44.109 what would I say? 446 00:14:44.110 --> 00:14:46.139 The audience 447 00:14:46.140 --> 00:14:47.999 acted much more like it was at home 448 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:49.799 watching television than 449 00:14:52.830 --> 00:14:54.600 audiences that had 450 00:14:55.950 --> 00:14:58.979 gotten BAs in film studies 451 00:14:58.980 --> 00:14:59.980 who felt...shh, be 452 00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:02.860 quiet. That 453 00:15:04.170 --> 00:15:05.519 kind of audience. 454 00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:07.439 So I do think 455 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:09.269 that it makes a 456 00:15:09.270 --> 00:15:11.339 big difference to how 457 00:15:11.340 --> 00:15:13.619 interactive the audiences are. 458 00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:15.719 You actually find the audiences 459 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.029 to be less interactive 460 00:15:18.030 --> 00:15:19.139 nowadays. 461 00:15:19.140 --> 00:15:20.759 That may, in part, be 462 00:15:21.900 --> 00:15:22.950 a result of the 463 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.539 surround sound systems, 464 00:15:27.540 --> 00:15:29.249 which really actually 465 00:15:31.920 --> 00:15:33.809 make it difficult for even the 466 00:15:33.810 --> 00:15:34.810 audiences 467 00:15:35.970 --> 00:15:36.970 voice to be heard. 468 00:15:38.130 --> 00:15:39.749 I mean, we're all actually told when 469 00:15:39.750 --> 00:15:41.909 we go to the movies now, too, 470 00:15:41.910 --> 00:15:44.039 like be quiet throughout the movie. 471 00:15:44.040 --> 00:15:45.040 Turn off your cell phone. And 472 00:15:48.090 --> 00:15:50.249 actually, I find, to a surprising 473 00:15:50.250 --> 00:15:52.349 degree, that works, at least 474 00:15:52.350 --> 00:15:54.119 in the movie theaters that I go to 475 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:55.979 in Manhattan, people do turn off 476 00:15:55.980 --> 00:15:57.419 their cell phones. 477 00:15:57.420 --> 00:15:58.469 Yeah. 478 00:15:58.470 --> 00:15:59.470 Yeah. 479 00:15:59.790 --> 00:16:01.799 So there's no-- and just to kind of 480 00:16:01.800 --> 00:16:02.880 like follow-up on that. 481 00:16:04.350 --> 00:16:06.689 You don't see it as being something 482 00:16:06.690 --> 00:16:09.419 that identifies 483 00:16:09.420 --> 00:16:11.609 horror films more than other genres. 484 00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:13.409 That is the audience 485 00:16:14.610 --> 00:16:16.559 wanting to participate in 486 00:16:16.560 --> 00:16:18.479 a way. You see 487 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:20.159 it more as a class issue. 488 00:16:20.160 --> 00:16:21.989 Yeah. Although now that I 489 00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:23.939 hear you rephrase the question 490 00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:25.979 and press me on it, it 491 00:16:25.980 --> 00:16:27.959 is true that in 492 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:29.460 Mission Impossible, 493 00:16:30.540 --> 00:16:32.399 you don't hear people saying, 494 00:16:32.400 --> 00:16:34.440 "Don't jump out the window, Tom." 495 00:16:35.640 --> 00:16:37.619 So that is 496 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:39.479 that there may be something that's a 497 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:42.809 bit more specific 498 00:16:42.810 --> 00:16:44.669 to horror films. 499 00:16:49.030 --> 00:16:51.189 Of course, part of the interactivity 500 00:16:51.190 --> 00:16:53.230 involves screaming and 501 00:16:54.880 --> 00:16:56.440 recoiling, and 502 00:16:57.520 --> 00:16:58.539 that certainly 503 00:16:59.650 --> 00:17:00.650 happens. 504 00:17:04.270 --> 00:17:05.529 I don't know. I'm going to use this 505 00:17:05.530 --> 00:17:06.429 word. 506 00:17:06.430 --> 00:17:08.259 I guess I should use the word normal 507 00:17:08.260 --> 00:17:09.519 rather than natural. 508 00:17:09.520 --> 00:17:11.379 It feels more natural, I 509 00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:13.929 think, for audiences to 510 00:17:13.930 --> 00:17:15.909 scream at a horror 511 00:17:15.910 --> 00:17:17.949 film than it does 512 00:17:17.950 --> 00:17:20.079 to scream at 513 00:17:21.369 --> 00:17:23.439 a James Bond film, 514 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:25.629 a thriller rather than a 515 00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:26.979 horror thriller. 516 00:17:26.980 --> 00:17:27.909 Or even I was thinking about 517 00:17:27.910 --> 00:17:29.409 romantic comedies. It was much 518 00:17:29.410 --> 00:17:30.729 harder for me to imagine a kind of 519 00:17:30.730 --> 00:17:32.679 like the same sort of 520 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:34.164 whatever it is, cheering or 521 00:17:35.560 --> 00:17:36.849 any anything that would happen at 522 00:17:36.850 --> 00:17:38.199 certain moments in that kind of a 523 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:39.669 film the same way that-- and it's 524 00:17:39.670 --> 00:17:40.960 just at least in my experience. 525 00:17:42.130 --> 00:17:43.959 I think, actually, I have heard 526 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:47.229 people in romantic comedies 527 00:17:47.230 --> 00:17:49.359 when it's usually the 528 00:17:49.360 --> 00:17:50.360 woman. 529 00:17:51.100 --> 00:17:53.559 I think I have heard audiences go, 530 00:17:53.560 --> 00:17:56.079 "No!" When she 531 00:17:56.080 --> 00:17:57.270 feels attracted to that 532 00:18:00.760 --> 00:18:02.319 Lothario. 533 00:18:02.320 --> 00:18:03.320 Anybody went, "No, stop!" 534 00:18:05.500 --> 00:18:07.659 And of course, comedies also 535 00:18:07.660 --> 00:18:08.660 get very 536 00:18:09.940 --> 00:18:12.219 robust responses. 537 00:18:12.220 --> 00:18:13.502 Not so much, "Look out." But there 538 00:18:15.490 --> 00:18:17.649 is a very strong response. 539 00:18:17.650 --> 00:18:19.929 There are also physical responses to 540 00:18:19.930 --> 00:18:21.339 things like boxing films. 541 00:18:21.340 --> 00:18:23.289 Watch people-- I mean, 542 00:18:23.290 --> 00:18:25.509 they don't say "duck" to Rocky. 543 00:18:25.510 --> 00:18:27.579 But actually, watch people 544 00:18:27.580 --> 00:18:29.139 in their seats. They squirm in their 545 00:18:29.140 --> 00:18:31.059 seats. It's as if they're 546 00:18:31.060 --> 00:18:32.589 feeling the impulse to block 547 00:18:32.590 --> 00:18:33.339 punches. 548 00:18:33.340 --> 00:18:34.340 Right. 549 00:18:35.290 --> 00:18:37.179 Well, one of the things-- we're in 550 00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:38.289 Pittsburgh here, and one of the 551 00:18:38.290 --> 00:18:39.369 things we're celebrating this year 552 00:18:39.370 --> 00:18:40.929 is the 50th anniversary of Night of 553 00:18:40.930 --> 00:18:41.949 the Living Dead. 554 00:18:41.950 --> 00:18:43.989 So I wonder if I could ask you about 555 00:18:43.990 --> 00:18:45.849 that movie in particular 556 00:18:45.850 --> 00:18:46.929 and this kind of like-- 557 00:18:48.100 --> 00:18:49.689 this conversation we're having about 558 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:51.193 kind of audience participation. 559 00:18:52.390 --> 00:18:53.979 When I watched that movie, I watched 560 00:18:53.980 --> 00:18:55.449 it again recently for the first time 561 00:18:55.450 --> 00:18:57.939 in a while, and I had just forgotten 562 00:18:57.940 --> 00:18:59.289 how much of that movie is a 563 00:18:59.290 --> 00:19:00.759 discussion between the characters 564 00:19:00.760 --> 00:19:02.589 about what to do inside the 565 00:19:02.590 --> 00:19:04.149 house. Like, should we go in the 566 00:19:04.150 --> 00:19:05.109 basement? Should we not go? 567 00:19:05.110 --> 00:19:05.889 That kind of thing. 568 00:19:05.890 --> 00:19:07.539 And it's such a big part of that. 569 00:19:07.540 --> 00:19:09.399 Can you talk about that 570 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:11.259 part of that-- how big of a role 571 00:19:11.260 --> 00:19:12.430 that plays in that movie? 572 00:19:13.570 --> 00:19:16.689 Well, I think it's very interesting 573 00:19:16.690 --> 00:19:19.029 that there is 574 00:19:19.030 --> 00:19:21.279 a theme 575 00:19:21.280 --> 00:19:23.289 that's developed in parallel 576 00:19:23.290 --> 00:19:25.660 fashion between 577 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:28.959 how the danger outside 578 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:31.149 is human, but the danger inside 579 00:19:31.150 --> 00:19:33.069 is also human so 580 00:19:33.070 --> 00:19:35.109 that the conflict between 581 00:19:35.110 --> 00:19:36.249 the protagonist. 582 00:19:36.250 --> 00:19:37.410 And Harry is 583 00:19:39.220 --> 00:19:41.439 maybe even more dangerous 584 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:42.969 than the zombies. 585 00:19:42.970 --> 00:19:43.929 And, of course, there's also a 586 00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:45.639 zombie in the house, the little 587 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:47.469 girl, and then there 588 00:19:47.470 --> 00:19:48.849 are the zombies outside. 589 00:19:48.850 --> 00:19:49.850 I think 590 00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:53.889 the theme that Romero really 591 00:19:53.890 --> 00:19:56.319 introduced, and you see it 592 00:19:56.320 --> 00:19:58.089 recapitulated in things like The 593 00:19:58.090 --> 00:19:59.699 Walking Dead, is that 594 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:04.119 the enemy is us. 595 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.139 Humans are the greatest danger 596 00:20:08.140 --> 00:20:09.520 to other humans. 597 00:20:10.570 --> 00:20:12.429 They're on 598 00:20:12.430 --> 00:20:13.430 the outside there, the 599 00:20:14.560 --> 00:20:17.199 zombies, who are going to eat 600 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:19.119 you. And on the inside, 601 00:20:19.120 --> 00:20:20.679 there are always these power 602 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:21.489 struggles. 603 00:20:21.490 --> 00:20:24.339 Who's going to be in charge? 604 00:20:24.340 --> 00:20:25.396 In The Walking Dead, there's 605 00:20:27.010 --> 00:20:28.509 a conflict. 606 00:20:28.510 --> 00:20:30.369 Is Rick going to be in 607 00:20:30.370 --> 00:20:32.199 charge, or is Nagin going to be 608 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:33.099 in charge? 609 00:20:33.100 --> 00:20:34.959 And at the end of the eighth 610 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:36.850 season, the question is, 611 00:20:38.560 --> 00:20:40.359 can Rick still be 612 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.569 our leader after-- 613 00:20:43.570 --> 00:20:45.609 actually, he didn't kill 614 00:20:45.610 --> 00:20:48.489 Nagin. So there's a brewing 615 00:20:48.490 --> 00:20:51.129 a conspiracy within. 616 00:20:51.130 --> 00:20:53.409 I think it's kind of interesting. 617 00:20:53.410 --> 00:20:56.109 For most of human history, 618 00:20:56.110 --> 00:20:57.759 we've been the prey. 619 00:20:57.760 --> 00:21:00.549 And this is a theme of horror films, 620 00:21:00.550 --> 00:21:02.709 vampires, werewolves. 621 00:21:02.710 --> 00:21:03.710 You name it. They're 622 00:21:05.950 --> 00:21:06.950 out to eat us. 623 00:21:09.010 --> 00:21:10.460 In zombie films, we 624 00:21:13.930 --> 00:21:16.839 are both the predator and the prey. 625 00:21:16.840 --> 00:21:19.299 And I think it's interesting 626 00:21:19.300 --> 00:21:20.324 in that respect that-- Night 627 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:25.939 of Living Dead came out in 1968. 628 00:21:25.940 --> 00:21:28.369 One of the times in my memory 629 00:21:28.370 --> 00:21:30.319 that the country was 630 00:21:30.320 --> 00:21:32.359 almost more 631 00:21:32.360 --> 00:21:34.279 divided into hostile 632 00:21:34.280 --> 00:21:36.199 camps than any other 633 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:37.699 time in our history because of 634 00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:39.199 things like Vietnam, which, of 635 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.089 course, the film alludes 636 00:21:41.090 --> 00:21:42.139 to. 637 00:21:42.140 --> 00:21:44.179 And now again, in 638 00:21:44.180 --> 00:21:46.069 this decade, it seems like 639 00:21:46.070 --> 00:21:48.379 the zombie is America's 640 00:21:48.380 --> 00:21:50.359 monster. And look 641 00:21:50.360 --> 00:21:52.369 at the hostile partisanship that 642 00:21:52.370 --> 00:21:53.929 rules now. 643 00:21:53.930 --> 00:21:56.239 Our enemies are us. 644 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:57.240 Yeah. Well, 645 00:21:58.070 --> 00:21:59.839 this actually is-- maybe that 646 00:21:59.840 --> 00:22:01.189 creates a kind of a good connection 647 00:22:01.190 --> 00:22:02.809 for my next question because I kind 648 00:22:02.810 --> 00:22:04.699 of wanted to ask you about your 649 00:22:04.700 --> 00:22:06.589 work with horror in the context 650 00:22:06.590 --> 00:22:09.269 of your work on 651 00:22:09.270 --> 00:22:10.849 the philosophy of art and aesthetic 652 00:22:10.850 --> 00:22:11.850 theory more broadly. When 653 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:15.529 you have talked about kind of 654 00:22:15.530 --> 00:22:16.530 trying, not 655 00:22:17.570 --> 00:22:19.039 necessarily sum up but, say, 656 00:22:19.040 --> 00:22:20.830 characterize your work in 657 00:22:23.970 --> 00:22:25.429 not many words. 658 00:22:25.430 --> 00:22:27.169 You've talked about being interested 659 00:22:27.170 --> 00:22:28.699 in trying to break down boundaries 660 00:22:28.700 --> 00:22:31.009 between art and other aspects 661 00:22:31.010 --> 00:22:32.809 of human life, politics and history, 662 00:22:32.810 --> 00:22:33.810 and things like that. 663 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:36.769 I wonder if this-- can 664 00:22:36.770 --> 00:22:38.719 you talk a little bit about how you 665 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:40.759 see the philosophy of horror 666 00:22:40.760 --> 00:22:42.229 in your work as a whole? 667 00:22:42.230 --> 00:22:43.609 Do you see when you look back at The 668 00:22:43.610 --> 00:22:44.899 Philosophy of Horror, is that, what 669 00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:45.949 you would say, one of the things you 670 00:22:45.950 --> 00:22:47.839 were trying to do in that book? 671 00:22:47.840 --> 00:22:48.840 Well, 672 00:22:50.150 --> 00:22:52.279 in aesthetics by, say, 673 00:22:52.280 --> 00:22:54.349 the mid-century, 674 00:22:54.350 --> 00:22:55.350 which is the 675 00:22:56.750 --> 00:22:59.270 slice of history I was born into, 676 00:23:00.500 --> 00:23:01.500 there were 677 00:23:03.740 --> 00:23:05.960 certain ideas about how 678 00:23:06.980 --> 00:23:09.199 the arousal of emotion 679 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:10.966 was not the aim 680 00:23:13.370 --> 00:23:14.370 of 681 00:23:15.620 --> 00:23:17.268 art properly so-called. 682 00:23:17.269 --> 00:23:19.459 So a very famous 683 00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:21.349 theoretician named 684 00:23:21.350 --> 00:23:22.350 Collingwood 685 00:23:23.420 --> 00:23:25.519 wrote a book called Principles of 686 00:23:25.520 --> 00:23:27.559 Art that was fairly 687 00:23:28.910 --> 00:23:30.889 influential in which he said 688 00:23:30.890 --> 00:23:31.890 that the 689 00:23:34.190 --> 00:23:36.169 so-called works of art that 690 00:23:36.170 --> 00:23:38.689 try to arouse emotions 691 00:23:38.690 --> 00:23:40.174 they're like crafts. 692 00:23:40.175 --> 00:23:41.175 They're 693 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:45.000 really not art properly 694 00:23:46.460 --> 00:23:48.019 so-called. 695 00:23:48.020 --> 00:23:49.939 Why? Well, because 696 00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:51.679 there are a certain kind of 697 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:53.659 strategies that 698 00:23:53.660 --> 00:23:55.519 you can employ to 699 00:23:55.520 --> 00:23:57.529 bring about the desired 700 00:23:57.530 --> 00:23:58.759 emotional response. 701 00:23:58.760 --> 00:24:00.949 So in Aristotle's Poetics, 702 00:24:00.950 --> 00:24:03.409 he explains what kind of characters 703 00:24:03.410 --> 00:24:05.389 you need and what kinds of plots 704 00:24:05.390 --> 00:24:07.609 in order to elicit pity and fear. 705 00:24:07.610 --> 00:24:09.169 So for Collingwood, he thought, 706 00:24:09.170 --> 00:24:11.059 well, that's really more like 707 00:24:11.060 --> 00:24:12.079 a craft. 708 00:24:13.760 --> 00:24:16.039 Art isn't about eliciting 709 00:24:16.040 --> 00:24:18.259 specific emotions. 710 00:24:18.260 --> 00:24:19.819 It's about actually 711 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.119 trying to capture 712 00:24:23.120 --> 00:24:25.189 emotions in the process 713 00:24:25.190 --> 00:24:27.139 of making the work. 714 00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:30.199 Emotional states that are maybe 715 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:32.929 unclear when the artist starts. 716 00:24:32.930 --> 00:24:33.930 She 717 00:24:35.210 --> 00:24:37.369 works with her words or her musical 718 00:24:37.370 --> 00:24:39.529 notes to try and capture 719 00:24:39.530 --> 00:24:41.149 the feelings she has. 720 00:24:41.150 --> 00:24:43.009 And the feeling she captures is not 721 00:24:43.010 --> 00:24:45.229 something like horror 722 00:24:45.230 --> 00:24:46.230 or pity. 723 00:24:47.090 --> 00:24:49.099 It's usually a kind of emotional 724 00:24:49.100 --> 00:24:50.779 state or feeling that we don't even 725 00:24:50.780 --> 00:24:52.879 have a name for. 726 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.429 And that's the proper aim of art. 727 00:24:55.430 --> 00:24:58.279 And it was specifically 728 00:24:58.280 --> 00:25:00.259 that kind of view 729 00:25:00.260 --> 00:25:02.119 of art, that 730 00:25:02.120 --> 00:25:04.369 art proper isn't involved 731 00:25:04.370 --> 00:25:06.199 in the arousal emotion 732 00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:08.269 that the horror 733 00:25:08.270 --> 00:25:09.270 book was 734 00:25:10.490 --> 00:25:12.499 written against. 735 00:25:12.500 --> 00:25:13.910 I thought that 736 00:25:16.850 --> 00:25:18.469 there is the sort of art that 737 00:25:18.470 --> 00:25:20.419 Collingwood championed, 738 00:25:20.420 --> 00:25:22.879 but there is also art 739 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:25.219 that is meant to arouse 740 00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:27.019 certain emotional states. 741 00:25:27.020 --> 00:25:29.359 And it's 742 00:25:29.360 --> 00:25:31.230 really that 743 00:25:32.360 --> 00:25:34.459 Collingwood preferred 744 00:25:34.460 --> 00:25:36.380 a certain kind of modernist art 745 00:25:37.800 --> 00:25:39.739 and generalized from that 746 00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:41.809 about how all art should 747 00:25:41.810 --> 00:25:42.810 be. 748 00:25:43.370 --> 00:25:45.919 His theory of art was really 749 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:47.929 a recommendation of what art 750 00:25:47.930 --> 00:25:48.829 should be. 751 00:25:48.830 --> 00:25:50.869 And I thought that I wanted 752 00:25:50.870 --> 00:25:53.659 to reassert 753 00:25:53.660 --> 00:25:55.849 the importance of considering 754 00:25:55.850 --> 00:25:58.159 art that actually was designed 755 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.229 to provoke arousal. 756 00:26:00.230 --> 00:26:01.230 Like most 757 00:26:02.120 --> 00:26:03.585 religious art, which 758 00:26:04.910 --> 00:26:06.739 is, at least 759 00:26:06.740 --> 00:26:07.740 in the 760 00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:10.219 Catholic tradition, is 761 00:26:11.990 --> 00:26:13.819 designed to arouse 762 00:26:17.060 --> 00:26:19.399 reverence and love of Jesus 763 00:26:19.400 --> 00:26:21.529 Christ and the Blessed Virgin Mary. 764 00:26:21.530 --> 00:26:23.449 Yeah. Can you say-- one of the 765 00:26:23.450 --> 00:26:24.619 things-- and this is kind of getting 766 00:26:24.620 --> 00:26:26.449 into a specific question 767 00:26:26.450 --> 00:26:28.699 in film studies, 768 00:26:28.700 --> 00:26:30.469 which is not, I'll admit, my 769 00:26:30.470 --> 00:26:32.929 background, but I know that 770 00:26:32.930 --> 00:26:34.939 you are associated within film 771 00:26:34.940 --> 00:26:38.209 studies with a cognitive approach to 772 00:26:38.210 --> 00:26:39.439 analyzing film. 773 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:40.549 I wonder if you can say a little bit 774 00:26:40.550 --> 00:26:42.439 about that for someone 775 00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:44.989 outside of film studies to 776 00:26:44.990 --> 00:26:45.889 what that means. 777 00:26:45.890 --> 00:26:47.089 What does that say about your work? 778 00:26:49.330 --> 00:26:50.330 Well. 779 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:54.919 When I entered film studies 780 00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:56.359 as a young professor, 781 00:26:57.860 --> 00:26:59.839 it was increasingly dominated 782 00:26:59.840 --> 00:27:02.719 by psychoanalytic approaches. 783 00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:04.789 And in fact, 784 00:27:04.790 --> 00:27:06.709 I think people thought that 785 00:27:06.710 --> 00:27:09.199 psychoanalysis was 786 00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:11.629 really the privileged 787 00:27:11.630 --> 00:27:13.519 method for 788 00:27:13.520 --> 00:27:15.379 examining 789 00:27:15.380 --> 00:27:18.709 horror films, primarily 790 00:27:18.710 --> 00:27:20.930 on the grounds that-- well, 791 00:27:22.100 --> 00:27:24.140 psychoanalysis, for example, 792 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.639 analyzed things like nightmares. 793 00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:30.619 And weren't 794 00:27:30.620 --> 00:27:32.824 horror films just like nightmares? 795 00:27:33.860 --> 00:27:35.809 Now, I had a number of 796 00:27:35.810 --> 00:27:39.169 objections to that approach, 797 00:27:39.170 --> 00:27:41.569 but one of them was that I found 798 00:27:42.740 --> 00:27:44.719 psychoanalytic analysis 799 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:45.769 of horror 800 00:27:47.090 --> 00:27:49.099 and other emotions 801 00:27:49.100 --> 00:27:51.259 to be very threadbare, and 802 00:27:51.260 --> 00:27:53.989 repetitive, and monotonous. 803 00:27:53.990 --> 00:27:55.789 And I thought, well, the reason for 804 00:27:55.790 --> 00:27:57.859 it is because 805 00:27:57.860 --> 00:27:59.719 psychoanalysis doesn't have 806 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:00.720 a great 807 00:28:01.580 --> 00:28:03.230 theory of emotions in 808 00:28:05.460 --> 00:28:07.319 the sense that 809 00:28:07.320 --> 00:28:09.209 they offer analysis 810 00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:11.579 of specific emotions. 811 00:28:11.580 --> 00:28:13.589 Psychoanalysis tends 812 00:28:13.590 --> 00:28:16.019 to assume the emotional 813 00:28:16.020 --> 00:28:17.879 vocabulary that we use in 814 00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:19.739 everyday life and then has 815 00:28:19.740 --> 00:28:21.689 a theory of why we 816 00:28:21.690 --> 00:28:23.819 have those emotions. 817 00:28:23.820 --> 00:28:26.549 But it doesn't have, 818 00:28:26.550 --> 00:28:28.679 let's say, a special account 819 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:30.749 of what-- a special 820 00:28:30.750 --> 00:28:33.029 account of what anger is 821 00:28:33.030 --> 00:28:35.219 or a special account of 822 00:28:36.540 --> 00:28:38.699 what indignation 823 00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:39.959 is. 824 00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:41.849 In other words, it might 825 00:28:41.850 --> 00:28:44.189 give you a theory of why, or 826 00:28:44.190 --> 00:28:46.649 at least an explanation of why, 827 00:28:46.650 --> 00:28:49.379 certain people feel rage 828 00:28:49.380 --> 00:28:51.749 but not an analysis of rage. 829 00:28:51.750 --> 00:28:53.609 And I thought we needed something 830 00:28:53.610 --> 00:28:56.429 of that particular caliber 831 00:28:56.430 --> 00:28:57.430 to talk about 832 00:28:59.250 --> 00:29:01.619 how and why and which 833 00:29:01.620 --> 00:29:03.000 emotions were being 834 00:29:04.410 --> 00:29:06.149 aroused in our works. 835 00:29:06.150 --> 00:29:08.519 Yeah, it's really interesting. 836 00:29:08.520 --> 00:29:09.659 This isn't really a-- just a 837 00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:10.949 follow-up kind of comment. It's 838 00:29:10.950 --> 00:29:11.950 really interesting here you 839 00:29:13.600 --> 00:29:14.859 mention that it seemed threadbare 840 00:29:14.860 --> 00:29:16.029 because it seems like, in this case, 841 00:29:16.030 --> 00:29:17.030 it's kind of like 842 00:29:18.100 --> 00:29:19.839 the theoretic or the systematic 843 00:29:19.840 --> 00:29:21.219 nature of the psychoanalytic 844 00:29:21.220 --> 00:29:23.289 approach that's making it feel thin 845 00:29:23.290 --> 00:29:24.879 to you. Is that right? 846 00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:27.009 Well, yes, the analysis 847 00:29:27.010 --> 00:29:29.049 always seemed to be the same. 848 00:29:29.050 --> 00:29:30.050 Right. Right. 849 00:29:31.390 --> 00:29:32.379 Yeah, that's really interesting. 850 00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:34.389 And especially at the time that 851 00:29:34.390 --> 00:29:37.509 I was involved in film studies, 852 00:29:37.510 --> 00:29:40.179 every film was about activating 853 00:29:40.180 --> 00:29:41.889 the Lacanian mirror phase. 854 00:29:43.090 --> 00:29:45.009 I mean, that was home 855 00:29:45.010 --> 00:29:46.359 plate for the theory. 856 00:29:47.410 --> 00:29:49.359 Slide into home plate. 857 00:29:49.360 --> 00:29:51.399 There's a mirror phase right 858 00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:52.689 at home plate. 859 00:29:52.690 --> 00:29:53.769 This is where-- I mean, I can tell 860 00:29:53.770 --> 00:29:55.929 you in literary studies, 861 00:29:55.930 --> 00:29:57.429 this is some of the-- after 862 00:29:57.430 --> 00:29:59.229 poststructuralism came and people 863 00:29:59.230 --> 00:30:00.549 were writing a lot, and then people 864 00:30:00.550 --> 00:30:01.839 began to criticize it, that was 865 00:30:01.840 --> 00:30:02.919 actually-- I mean, it's a very 866 00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:03.969 similar criticism of 867 00:30:03.970 --> 00:30:05.949 post-structuralist literary 868 00:30:05.950 --> 00:30:06.279 critics too. 869 00:30:06.280 --> 00:30:07.341 They read my book. 870 00:30:07.342 --> 00:30:08.342 Well, 871 00:30:11.230 --> 00:30:13.509 let me ask you about another 872 00:30:13.510 --> 00:30:14.619 art critic. Well, one thing you've 873 00:30:14.620 --> 00:30:15.879 done in your career, along with 874 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:18.129 writing about horror film, 875 00:30:18.130 --> 00:30:19.299 visual art, so many different 876 00:30:19.300 --> 00:30:20.649 things, you've also written about 877 00:30:20.650 --> 00:30:22.539 other art critics and art 878 00:30:22.540 --> 00:30:23.649 criticism. 879 00:30:23.650 --> 00:30:25.239 And Arthur Danto is someone who 880 00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:26.229 you've written a lot about and 881 00:30:26.230 --> 00:30:27.369 someone who's important to you. 882 00:30:27.370 --> 00:30:28.370 Yes, very. 883 00:30:30.020 --> 00:30:30.969 You've talked about him being 884 00:30:30.970 --> 00:30:32.229 important for his focus on the 885 00:30:32.230 --> 00:30:34.179 singularity of a work of art. 886 00:30:34.180 --> 00:30:35.769 And I wonder if you can talk about 887 00:30:35.770 --> 00:30:37.419 that. What does that mean for him? 888 00:30:37.420 --> 00:30:38.739 Why is it important? 889 00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:41.229 Well, Danto 890 00:30:41.230 --> 00:30:42.729 writes criticism from a 891 00:30:42.730 --> 00:30:44.349 philosophical perspective. 892 00:30:44.350 --> 00:30:46.809 He has an idea of 893 00:30:46.810 --> 00:30:48.519 what it takes to be a work of art. 894 00:30:48.520 --> 00:30:50.439 Now, there may be some problems with 895 00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:52.390 this philosophy, but 896 00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:55.809 nevertheless, it does give him 897 00:30:55.810 --> 00:30:57.519 what you could call his marching 898 00:30:57.520 --> 00:30:58.389 orders. 899 00:30:58.390 --> 00:31:00.279 And his view of art 900 00:31:00.280 --> 00:31:01.761 is that something is a work of art 901 00:31:03.820 --> 00:31:05.889 if it has a content, 902 00:31:05.890 --> 00:31:07.329 if it's about something. 903 00:31:08.500 --> 00:31:09.486 That's the first condition. 904 00:31:09.487 --> 00:31:11.739 And the second condition is 905 00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:12.740 that 906 00:31:13.630 --> 00:31:15.849 it has a form that 907 00:31:16.930 --> 00:31:19.719 articulates or embodies 908 00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:20.709 that content. 909 00:31:20.710 --> 00:31:22.779 So you could think of it in terms of 910 00:31:22.780 --> 00:31:24.759 artworks have meanings like 911 00:31:24.760 --> 00:31:27.129 themes and theses or 912 00:31:27.130 --> 00:31:28.599 expressive qualities. 913 00:31:30.310 --> 00:31:31.310 That 914 00:31:32.380 --> 00:31:34.359 is what the 915 00:31:34.360 --> 00:31:36.849 art critic needs to interpret. 916 00:31:36.850 --> 00:31:38.889 And then, those themes 917 00:31:38.890 --> 00:31:40.899 or meanings 918 00:31:40.900 --> 00:31:42.789 are given body or 919 00:31:42.790 --> 00:31:44.019 embodied in the work. 920 00:31:44.020 --> 00:31:46.089 So the way that you go about 921 00:31:46.090 --> 00:31:48.189 criticizing in Danto 922 00:31:48.190 --> 00:31:50.439 style is you 923 00:31:50.440 --> 00:31:52.149 identify the meaning of the work or 924 00:31:52.150 --> 00:31:54.129 the theme of the work, 925 00:31:54.130 --> 00:31:56.169 and then you look at and try 926 00:31:56.170 --> 00:31:58.406 to explain to your audience 927 00:31:59.830 --> 00:32:01.659 how that artistic choices the 928 00:32:01.660 --> 00:32:03.579 artist has made 929 00:32:03.580 --> 00:32:06.369 in the work actually 930 00:32:06.370 --> 00:32:08.289 articulate or 931 00:32:08.290 --> 00:32:10.149 fail to articulate 932 00:32:10.150 --> 00:32:12.189 that meaning in terms 933 00:32:12.190 --> 00:32:14.019 of the forms, the 934 00:32:14.020 --> 00:32:16.119 arrangements, the choices, in terms 935 00:32:16.120 --> 00:32:18.249 of the manipulation of the medium 936 00:32:18.250 --> 00:32:20.559 that the artist has deployed 937 00:32:20.560 --> 00:32:22.449 to present his 938 00:32:22.450 --> 00:32:23.509 or her work. 939 00:32:23.510 --> 00:32:24.510 Yeah. 940 00:32:25.300 --> 00:32:26.300 I want to ask you about history 941 00:32:28.330 --> 00:32:30.129 and where it comes into that kind of 942 00:32:30.130 --> 00:32:31.389 critical practice. 943 00:32:31.390 --> 00:32:34.239 Because I think 944 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:36.219 someone could listen to that 945 00:32:36.220 --> 00:32:37.431 and think that 946 00:32:39.310 --> 00:32:41.259 it doesn't allow you to do 947 00:32:41.260 --> 00:32:43.389 historical analysis because 948 00:32:43.390 --> 00:32:44.979 you're just paying attention to this 949 00:32:44.980 --> 00:32:46.689 one work and thinking about the 950 00:32:46.690 --> 00:32:47.949 theme and thinking about-- it's like 951 00:32:47.950 --> 00:32:49.149 more of a formal analysis. 952 00:32:49.150 --> 00:32:50.949 But I know that one of the things 953 00:32:50.950 --> 00:32:52.839 that you've talked about also in 954 00:32:52.840 --> 00:32:54.309 terms of what makes a good critic is 955 00:32:54.310 --> 00:32:55.839 actually knowing and being able to 956 00:32:55.840 --> 00:32:57.189 kind of identify what's happening 957 00:32:57.190 --> 00:32:58.599 here with relation to other works 958 00:32:58.600 --> 00:32:59.829 and historical works and things like 959 00:32:59.830 --> 00:33:01.479 that. So how do you put those things 960 00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:02.349 together? 961 00:33:02.350 --> 00:33:04.329 Well, the way that someone like 962 00:33:04.330 --> 00:33:06.249 Danto would put it together-- I 963 00:33:06.250 --> 00:33:07.929 would do it slightly differently. 964 00:33:07.930 --> 00:33:09.219 But the way Danto would put it 965 00:33:09.220 --> 00:33:11.319 together would be to say, and 966 00:33:11.320 --> 00:33:12.909 this was connected to your earlier 967 00:33:12.910 --> 00:33:15.249 question about singularities, 968 00:33:15.250 --> 00:33:17.379 is that at different 969 00:33:17.380 --> 00:33:18.380 times, 970 00:33:20.050 --> 00:33:21.699 artists will have different things 971 00:33:21.700 --> 00:33:23.229 to say. 972 00:33:23.230 --> 00:33:25.179 Different problems will arise 973 00:33:25.180 --> 00:33:27.099 in the culture that need to be 974 00:33:27.100 --> 00:33:28.029 addressed. 975 00:33:28.030 --> 00:33:29.550 Different issues in 976 00:33:31.300 --> 00:33:33.369 art will have to be addressed 977 00:33:33.370 --> 00:33:34.370 in terms of 978 00:33:35.290 --> 00:33:36.729 the things that 979 00:33:38.230 --> 00:33:40.809 the artist finds important. 980 00:33:40.810 --> 00:33:43.729 So history will change. 981 00:33:43.730 --> 00:33:45.649 The changes in history, art 982 00:33:45.650 --> 00:33:48.319 history, but also social history 983 00:33:48.320 --> 00:33:50.719 will mean that in response 984 00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:52.459 to them, artists will have different 985 00:33:52.460 --> 00:33:53.989 things to say. 986 00:33:53.990 --> 00:33:55.909 And insofar as they have different 987 00:33:55.910 --> 00:33:58.039 things to say, they'll have to find 988 00:33:58.040 --> 00:33:59.929 different forms. 989 00:33:59.930 --> 00:34:01.789 They'll have to make different 990 00:34:01.790 --> 00:34:03.619 choices about how to use 991 00:34:03.620 --> 00:34:05.779 the medium to articulate 992 00:34:05.780 --> 00:34:07.909 these different meanings in 993 00:34:07.910 --> 00:34:10.279 an appropriate or adequate way. 994 00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:12.619 And that's where the singularity 995 00:34:12.620 --> 00:34:14.448 comes in because 996 00:34:14.449 --> 00:34:16.700 what may be an 997 00:34:18.080 --> 00:34:20.359 issue that, say, 998 00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:23.329 a novelist in the 1950s 999 00:34:23.330 --> 00:34:25.999 needs to address and 1000 00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:27.469 observe and 1001 00:34:29.300 --> 00:34:31.849 set forth an idea about 1002 00:34:31.850 --> 00:34:33.829 will be very different than the 1003 00:34:33.830 --> 00:34:36.559 kind of ideas that 1004 00:34:36.560 --> 00:34:38.388 might strike an 1005 00:34:38.389 --> 00:34:39.678 author today. 1006 00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:41.658 So that there'll be so many 1007 00:34:41.659 --> 00:34:44.509 of these novels from the fifties. 1008 00:34:44.510 --> 00:34:45.709 They'll each approach it in 1009 00:34:45.710 --> 00:34:46.729 different ways. 1010 00:34:46.730 --> 00:34:48.490 But in America, they'll 1011 00:34:50.389 --> 00:34:51.389 be very much 1012 00:34:54.219 --> 00:34:56.020 concerned with the 1013 00:34:57.400 --> 00:34:59.319 disappointment of white, 1014 00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:02.079 middle-class world life. 1015 00:35:02.080 --> 00:35:04.029 And we'll get Updike's 1016 00:35:04.030 --> 00:35:05.409 novels. 1017 00:35:05.410 --> 00:35:07.270 But today, actually, 1018 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:10.179 much more concern 1019 00:35:10.180 --> 00:35:11.229 is going to be 1020 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:14.529 devoted to 1021 00:35:14.530 --> 00:35:17.079 the problems of 1022 00:35:17.080 --> 00:35:19.059 women, 1023 00:35:19.060 --> 00:35:20.919 people of color, and different 1024 00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:22.779 ethnicities and different gender 1025 00:35:22.780 --> 00:35:24.279 choices. 1026 00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:26.649 And those will 1027 00:35:26.650 --> 00:35:27.789 call for 1028 00:35:29.140 --> 00:35:30.999 different differences in the kind of 1029 00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:32.430 structures of the novels that 1030 00:35:33.790 --> 00:35:36.189 they'll make. So different times 1031 00:35:36.190 --> 00:35:37.190 will 1032 00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:40.629 raise different issues 1033 00:35:40.630 --> 00:35:42.639 to be addressed, which 1034 00:35:42.640 --> 00:35:44.260 then, of course, will 1035 00:35:46.030 --> 00:35:47.030 force the 1036 00:35:48.810 --> 00:35:50.410 artists to find 1037 00:35:51.670 --> 00:35:53.619 different forms to 1038 00:35:53.620 --> 00:35:55.539 embody those thoughts. 1039 00:35:55.540 --> 00:35:56.349 Yeah. 1040 00:35:56.350 --> 00:35:58.429 So just to follow up on that. 1041 00:35:58.430 --> 00:36:00.819 So it's kind of in the-- 1042 00:36:00.820 --> 00:36:02.649 it would be in the identification 1043 00:36:02.650 --> 00:36:04.029 of the theme. 1044 00:36:04.030 --> 00:36:06.009 To begin with that, one 1045 00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:08.669 needs to pay attention to history. 1046 00:36:08.670 --> 00:36:10.517 Well, for Danto, yes. 1047 00:36:11.790 --> 00:36:13.799 I wouldn't actually 1048 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:15.659 put the emphasis on themes. 1049 00:36:15.660 --> 00:36:17.759 Some works have themes, 1050 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:18.809 but not all do. 1051 00:36:18.810 --> 00:36:21.107 I would rather talk about purposes 1052 00:36:23.010 --> 00:36:24.989 which I 1053 00:36:24.990 --> 00:36:26.400 think are better 1054 00:36:28.770 --> 00:36:29.849 or more comprehensive. 1055 00:36:29.850 --> 00:36:31.829 It's a more comprehensive concept 1056 00:36:32.850 --> 00:36:34.979 to use than 1057 00:36:34.980 --> 00:36:35.980 meanings, but 1058 00:36:38.100 --> 00:36:40.529 the purposes grow out of historical 1059 00:36:40.530 --> 00:36:41.339 circumstances. 1060 00:36:41.340 --> 00:36:44.009 But that doesn't entail 1061 00:36:44.010 --> 00:36:45.659 that the critic 1062 00:36:47.640 --> 00:36:49.529 just looks at 1063 00:36:49.530 --> 00:36:51.149 the work and knows what the purpose 1064 00:36:51.150 --> 00:36:53.459 is without looking at 1065 00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:54.630 the various 1066 00:36:55.650 --> 00:36:57.329 choices the artist has made to 1067 00:36:57.330 --> 00:36:58.949 articulate those purposes. 1068 00:37:00.390 --> 00:37:01.769 Very often, you don't know what the 1069 00:37:01.770 --> 00:37:03.839 purpose is until you begin to 1070 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.789 engage with and ask questions 1071 00:37:05.790 --> 00:37:07.769 about why did the artist do 1072 00:37:07.770 --> 00:37:09.869 this? Why did she do that? 1073 00:37:09.870 --> 00:37:11.819 And then you try and make sense 1074 00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:13.949 about what she might be getting at. 1075 00:37:13.950 --> 00:37:16.199 So it's not as if the purpose 1076 00:37:16.200 --> 00:37:18.389 just jumps out at you, although the 1077 00:37:18.390 --> 00:37:20.579 purpose is historically 1078 00:37:20.580 --> 00:37:21.539 shaped. 1079 00:37:21.540 --> 00:37:22.540 It's rather 1080 00:37:23.610 --> 00:37:25.499 that you have to play 1081 00:37:25.500 --> 00:37:27.389 a game trying 1082 00:37:27.390 --> 00:37:29.119 to figure out what the 1083 00:37:30.120 --> 00:37:32.039 purpose is at the same time 1084 00:37:32.040 --> 00:37:33.329 you're trying to find out what the 1085 00:37:33.330 --> 00:37:35.249 structures are, and your 1086 00:37:35.250 --> 00:37:36.929 hypotheses try to 1087 00:37:38.700 --> 00:37:40.889 get to that point 1088 00:37:40.890 --> 00:37:42.689 where the hypothesis about the 1089 00:37:42.690 --> 00:37:45.059 purpose best fits the hypothesis 1090 00:37:45.060 --> 00:37:45.959 about the means. 1091 00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:47.878 Yeah. Well, Noël 1092 00:37:47.879 --> 00:37:49.409 Carroll, thank you so much for 1093 00:37:49.410 --> 00:37:51.389 taking the time to talk to us today. 1094 00:37:51.390 --> 00:37:52.379 And we've really enjoyed you being 1095 00:37:52.380 --> 00:37:53.789 here in Pittsburgh. 1096 00:37:53.790 --> 00:37:55.739 Well, as they say, no, thank 1097 00:37:55.740 --> 00:37:56.399 you. 1098 00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:57.599 That's it for this edition of Being 1099 00:37:57.600 --> 00:37:59.249 Human. This episode was produced by 1100 00:37:59.250 --> 00:38:00.929 Noah Livingston, Humanities Media 1101 00:38:00.930 --> 00:38:01.919 Fellow at the University of 1102 00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:03.329 Pittsburgh. Stay tuned next time 1103 00:38:03.330 --> 00:38:05.129 when my guest will actually be Kazuo 1104 00:38:05.130 --> 00:38:06.869 Hara, documentary filmmaker and 1105 00:38:06.870 --> 00:38:08.189 winner of the first biennial 1106 00:38:08.190 --> 00:38:09.719 University of Pittsburgh, Japan 1107 00:38:09.720 --> 00:38:11.009 Documentary Award. 1108 00:38:11.010 --> 00:38:12.010 Thanks for listening.
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