WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.130 --> 00:00:03.329 Hello and welcome to the latest 2 00:00:03.330 --> 00:00:04.619 installment of Being Human from the 3 00:00:04.620 --> 00:00:06.359 University of Pittsburgh. 4 00:00:06.360 --> 00:00:08.069 The series is devoted to exploring 5 00:00:08.070 --> 00:00:09.779 the humanities, their connections to 6 00:00:09.780 --> 00:00:11.219 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:11.220 --> 00:00:12.569 in the public world. 8 00:00:12.570 --> 00:00:14.189 I'm Dan Kubis, associate director of 9 00:00:14.190 --> 00:00:15.190 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:15.840 --> 00:00:17.609 My guest today is Lee Gutkind, 11 00:00:17.610 --> 00:00:18.929 writer and founder of the journal 12 00:00:18.930 --> 00:00:19.930 Creative Nonfiction. 13 00:00:21.620 --> 00:00:22.549 Gutkind was born and raised in 14 00:00:22.550 --> 00:00:24.349 Pittsburgh and served for many years 15 00:00:24.350 --> 00:00:25.399 as a professor in the writing 16 00:00:25.400 --> 00:00:26.959 program at Pitt. 17 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:28.549 He's best known as a pioneer in the 18 00:00:28.550 --> 00:00:30.799 literary genre creative nonfiction, 19 00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:32.599 which he describes as true stories 20 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:34.099 well told. 21 00:00:34.100 --> 00:00:35.839 For Gutkind, creative nonfiction is 22 00:00:35.840 --> 00:00:37.459 about bringing the art and power of 23 00:00:37.460 --> 00:00:38.869 story to real life events. 24 00:00:39.890 --> 00:00:41.149 This is clear in his own writing, 25 00:00:41.150 --> 00:00:42.289 which starts with Lee embedding 26 00:00:42.290 --> 00:00:43.819 himself in worlds ranging from 27 00:00:43.820 --> 00:00:45.889 health care to professional baseball 28 00:00:45.890 --> 00:00:47.209 and then bringing them to life with 29 00:00:47.210 --> 00:00:49.249 his dynamic writing style. 30 00:00:49.250 --> 00:00:50.449 The result is an exciting and 31 00:00:50.450 --> 00:00:51.889 important body of work featuring 32 00:00:51.890 --> 00:00:53.779 books like Many Sleepless Nights, 33 00:00:53.780 --> 00:00:54.780 The World of Organ Transplantation, 34 00:00:55.970 --> 00:00:57.679 The Veterinarian's Touch, Profiles 35 00:00:57.680 --> 00:00:59.449 of Life Among the Animals, and 36 00:00:59.450 --> 00:01:01.369 Almost Human: Making Robots Think. 37 00:01:02.660 --> 00:01:03.829 The interview you're about to hear 38 00:01:03.830 --> 00:01:05.238 was conducted as part of a summer 39 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:06.529 science writing workshop at the 40 00:01:06.530 --> 00:01:08.209 University of Pittsburgh. 41 00:01:08.210 --> 00:01:09.949 Lee's participation was particularly 42 00:01:09.950 --> 00:01:11.449 fitting because so much of his work 43 00:01:11.450 --> 00:01:12.919 is focused on the human interest of 44 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:14.540 science and science policy. 45 00:01:15.710 --> 00:01:16.909 The workshop was conducted by 46 00:01:16.910 --> 00:01:18.529 Lillian Chong, a professor in the 47 00:01:18.530 --> 00:01:20.389 chemistry department at Pitt. 48 00:01:20.390 --> 00:01:21.739 It featured four undergraduate 49 00:01:21.740 --> 00:01:23.089 students studying in various 50 00:01:23.090 --> 00:01:24.859 scientific disciplines, exploring 51 00:01:24.860 --> 00:01:26.299 connections between their scientific 52 00:01:26.300 --> 00:01:28.459 research and the written word. 53 00:01:28.460 --> 00:01:30.139 I began our conversation by asking 54 00:01:30.140 --> 00:01:31.429 Lee to comment on the students' 55 00:01:31.430 --> 00:01:33.049 readings of their work, and you can 56 00:01:33.050 --> 00:01:34.399 link to this work in the description 57 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:35.400 of this podcast. 58 00:01:38.330 --> 00:01:40.159 So, Lee Gutkind, thanks so much for 59 00:01:40.160 --> 00:01:41.160 joining us. 60 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:43.519 I used to be here all the time. 61 00:01:43.520 --> 00:01:44.520 Yeah, that's right. 62 00:01:45.470 --> 00:01:46.470 So, welcome back. 63 00:01:47.960 --> 00:01:49.909 I thought I would start maybe 64 00:01:49.910 --> 00:01:50.719 just by asking you. 65 00:01:50.720 --> 00:01:51.888 You've done so much science writing 66 00:01:53.030 --> 00:01:54.319 and writing about medicine. 67 00:01:54.320 --> 00:01:55.399 And I hope we can talk about some of 68 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:56.389 that a little bit later on. 69 00:01:56.390 --> 00:01:58.399 But we just heard these four 70 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:00.349 writers doing science writing. 71 00:02:00.350 --> 00:02:01.639 They're writing in different forms, 72 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:02.929 and asking different kinds of 73 00:02:02.930 --> 00:02:04.099 questions and having different 74 00:02:04.100 --> 00:02:05.089 explorations. 75 00:02:05.090 --> 00:02:06.679 What are your thoughts on what we 76 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:07.729 just heard? 77 00:02:07.730 --> 00:02:08.730 Wasn't it terrific? 78 00:02:09.750 --> 00:02:10.799 I mean, honestly. 79 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:11.800 Each 80 00:02:16.650 --> 00:02:18.569 writer did something different, and 81 00:02:20.250 --> 00:02:22.079 I found it quite everything. 82 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:23.339 Quite compelling. 83 00:02:23.340 --> 00:02:25.229 And what is also really interesting, 84 00:02:25.230 --> 00:02:27.059 I've been doing this a long time, 85 00:02:27.060 --> 00:02:29.459 and it's not easy to 86 00:02:29.460 --> 00:02:31.529 organize a writing 87 00:02:31.530 --> 00:02:33.389 workshop, and it's not easy to 88 00:02:33.390 --> 00:02:34.199 do it quickly. 89 00:02:34.200 --> 00:02:35.419 And, Lillian, wow. 90 00:02:35.420 --> 00:02:37.289 I mean, it's really quite a job that 91 00:02:37.290 --> 00:02:38.290 you do. Yes. 92 00:02:42.160 --> 00:02:44.429 The thing about creative nonfiction, 93 00:02:44.430 --> 00:02:45.510 which is what I do, and 94 00:02:47.490 --> 00:02:49.499 that's kind of what was represented 95 00:02:49.500 --> 00:02:51.329 in almost everything that 96 00:02:51.330 --> 00:02:53.159 we heard today, is that it's a 97 00:02:53.160 --> 00:02:55.619 combination of style or story 98 00:02:55.620 --> 00:02:57.780 and substance, which is information. 99 00:02:59.700 --> 00:03:01.259 But Lillian didn't tell you one 100 00:03:01.260 --> 00:03:03.179 thing. She didn't give you 101 00:03:03.180 --> 00:03:05.939 the total context of 102 00:03:05.940 --> 00:03:07.799 this writing workshop she took. 103 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:10.499 It was style, and it was substance. 104 00:03:10.500 --> 00:03:13.109 And it was called practicing 105 00:03:13.110 --> 00:03:15.059 creative nonfiction 106 00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:16.060 and yoga. 107 00:03:17.730 --> 00:03:19.619 And that's where we met. 108 00:03:19.620 --> 00:03:21.569 And so I don't 109 00:03:21.570 --> 00:03:23.159 know which was the style and which 110 00:03:23.160 --> 00:03:24.160 was the substance, Lillian. But it 111 00:03:27.330 --> 00:03:28.330 was fun, and 112 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.069 we could participate and learn 113 00:03:32.070 --> 00:03:33.090 simultaneously. 114 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:36.449 Well, I mentioned 115 00:03:36.450 --> 00:03:37.649 I kind of would hope to ask you a 116 00:03:37.650 --> 00:03:38.939 little bit about science writing. 117 00:03:38.940 --> 00:03:40.740 And I want to start maybe by 118 00:03:41.880 --> 00:03:43.829 referencing a 119 00:03:43.830 --> 00:03:45.149 book that you edited that was 120 00:03:45.150 --> 00:03:46.949 actually a special edition of the 121 00:03:46.950 --> 00:03:48.359 journal Creative Nonfiction, and it 122 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:50.339 was published as a book called 123 00:03:50.340 --> 00:03:51.689 A View From the Divide. 124 00:03:51.690 --> 00:03:53.579 And the divide being humanities 125 00:03:53.580 --> 00:03:53.889 and science. 126 00:03:53.890 --> 00:03:55.559 Oh my god, that was such a long time 127 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:56.789 ago. 128 00:03:56.790 --> 00:03:57.790 I did my research, I guess. 129 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:00.389 I hate it when people do research. 130 00:04:01.710 --> 00:04:02.964 We're in for a long 45 minutes, 131 00:04:02.965 --> 00:04:04.829 then, because I'm going 132 00:04:04.830 --> 00:04:05.830 way back. 133 00:04:06.420 --> 00:04:07.229 Okay. Well, remind me. 134 00:04:07.230 --> 00:04:08.489 All right. Well, I have a quote for 135 00:04:08.490 --> 00:04:09.719 you because the first-- yeah. 136 00:04:09.720 --> 00:04:11.759 The first 137 00:04:11.760 --> 00:04:13.199 piece there is from a poet named 138 00:04:13.200 --> 00:04:14.459 Alison Deming. 139 00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:15.599 And she has this quote that I 140 00:04:15.600 --> 00:04:17.189 thought was really great, that I 141 00:04:17.190 --> 00:04:18.359 wanted to just kind of like read to 142 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:20.249 you and get your thoughts on 143 00:04:20.250 --> 00:04:22.078 it. And she's comparing here 144 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:23.519 science and poetry, I thought, in an 145 00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:24.539 interesting way. And she writes 146 00:04:24.540 --> 00:04:25.559 that-- she says, "Both the 147 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:27.929 evolutionary biologist and the poet 148 00:04:27.930 --> 00:04:29.969 participate in the inherent tendency 149 00:04:29.970 --> 00:04:31.799 of nature to give rise to 150 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:33.719 pattern and form." And so 151 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:35.129 I just wanted to suggest that to you 152 00:04:35.130 --> 00:04:36.659 and see if you can reflect on what 153 00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:37.859 we just heard or your own work or 154 00:04:37.860 --> 00:04:39.359 whatever that idea of pattern and 155 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.939 form somehow connecting 156 00:04:41.940 --> 00:04:44.039 writing, on the one hand, science 157 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:45.040 on the other. 158 00:04:45.570 --> 00:04:47.399 Can I say that I'm 159 00:04:47.400 --> 00:04:48.299 always hesitant. 160 00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:50.159 I hope you don't mind this, but 161 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:51.869 I'm always hesitant about talking 162 00:04:51.870 --> 00:04:53.759 about science 163 00:04:53.760 --> 00:04:55.470 and writing alone. 164 00:04:56.970 --> 00:04:59.009 Because if you tell 165 00:04:59.010 --> 00:05:00.989 a good story or write a good 166 00:05:00.990 --> 00:05:03.209 story, it could be science. 167 00:05:03.210 --> 00:05:04.589 It could be chemistry. 168 00:05:04.590 --> 00:05:07.049 It could also be baseball 169 00:05:07.050 --> 00:05:09.959 and politics and policy. 170 00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:10.960 And 171 00:05:12.750 --> 00:05:13.750 so the 172 00:05:15.300 --> 00:05:17.549 story writing world 173 00:05:17.550 --> 00:05:19.529 is open to almost 174 00:05:19.530 --> 00:05:21.419 anyone who has any 175 00:05:21.420 --> 00:05:23.159 interest whatsoever. 176 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:25.289 And when he or she wants 177 00:05:25.290 --> 00:05:27.329 to share that interest with 178 00:05:28.350 --> 00:05:30.119 the general public, with a large 179 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:31.169 body of people. 180 00:05:33.900 --> 00:05:35.729 And each 181 00:05:35.730 --> 00:05:38.009 creative nonfiction essay 182 00:05:38.010 --> 00:05:40.109 we write, just like each 183 00:05:40.110 --> 00:05:42.359 poem or short story, 184 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:44.309 does have a structure 185 00:05:44.310 --> 00:05:45.539 and a form. 186 00:05:45.540 --> 00:05:46.540 We 187 00:05:47.970 --> 00:05:49.139 don't just sit down and write. 188 00:05:49.140 --> 00:05:51.389 Well, maybe we sit down 189 00:05:51.390 --> 00:05:52.409 and write. 190 00:05:52.410 --> 00:05:54.329 And that's always so exciting to 191 00:05:54.330 --> 00:05:56.279 sit down and write and to 192 00:05:56.280 --> 00:05:58.439 allow the words and the ideas, 193 00:05:58.440 --> 00:06:01.109 whether it's a poem or a story 194 00:06:01.110 --> 00:06:02.939 or an essay, to allow 195 00:06:02.940 --> 00:06:05.310 the words and the ideas to explode 196 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:08.969 on the display or on the page. 197 00:06:08.970 --> 00:06:10.889 But in addition 198 00:06:10.890 --> 00:06:12.869 to that, once those 199 00:06:12.870 --> 00:06:14.849 words explode, 200 00:06:14.850 --> 00:06:16.919 a writer needs to kind of look 201 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:19.439 at the structure and the form 202 00:06:19.440 --> 00:06:21.509 of what he or she is doing. 203 00:06:21.510 --> 00:06:23.369 And that's kind of exciting 204 00:06:23.370 --> 00:06:25.199 because we look at our 205 00:06:25.200 --> 00:06:27.179 work in two different ways. 206 00:06:27.180 --> 00:06:29.039 We look at our work as if we're the 207 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:30.959 reader and we are the 208 00:06:30.960 --> 00:06:32.849 recipients of this 209 00:06:32.850 --> 00:06:34.619 explosion of words. 210 00:06:34.620 --> 00:06:36.629 But then, we need to look at our 211 00:06:36.630 --> 00:06:38.789 work with a writer's 212 00:06:38.790 --> 00:06:41.129 eye, almost as if 213 00:06:41.130 --> 00:06:42.959 we're architects or 214 00:06:42.960 --> 00:06:44.249 engineers. 215 00:06:44.250 --> 00:06:46.109 And we're looking at 216 00:06:46.110 --> 00:06:48.389 a building or a bridge, 217 00:06:48.390 --> 00:06:50.939 and an architect or an engineer 218 00:06:50.940 --> 00:06:52.829 will look at a building and a bridge 219 00:06:52.830 --> 00:06:54.809 and see how pedestrians use 220 00:06:54.810 --> 00:06:57.239 it and see how people appreciate 221 00:06:57.240 --> 00:06:59.219 it, that is, from the point 222 00:06:59.220 --> 00:07:00.710 of view of the writer, but that 223 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:03.899 architect or engineer will 224 00:07:03.900 --> 00:07:06.509 also see the blueprints, 225 00:07:06.510 --> 00:07:08.519 see the superstructure, 226 00:07:08.520 --> 00:07:10.589 see how it is always-- how 227 00:07:10.590 --> 00:07:12.209 it is all put together. 228 00:07:12.210 --> 00:07:14.069 And so we're looking 229 00:07:14.070 --> 00:07:15.659 at things two different ways. 230 00:07:15.660 --> 00:07:16.660 We're looking at 231 00:07:18.990 --> 00:07:21.299 how it is presented to the world 232 00:07:21.300 --> 00:07:23.159 and then how the writer puts 233 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:25.469 it together and makes it look 234 00:07:25.470 --> 00:07:27.599 like it should be presented 235 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:28.919 to the world. 236 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:30.179 I'm not sure if that answers your 237 00:07:30.180 --> 00:07:32.339 question, but it deals 238 00:07:32.340 --> 00:07:33.719 with form, and it deals with 239 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:35.399 structure, and it deals with the way 240 00:07:35.400 --> 00:07:37.559 in which writers need to learn 241 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:38.560 how to 242 00:07:39.540 --> 00:07:40.540 reflect 243 00:07:41.520 --> 00:07:42.509 upon what they do. 244 00:07:42.510 --> 00:07:44.029 Yeah, I mean, it does. 245 00:07:44.030 --> 00:07:44.879 And that's really interesting. I 246 00:07:44.880 --> 00:07:45.959 wonder if I could just kind of like 247 00:07:45.960 --> 00:07:47.819 take another 248 00:07:47.820 --> 00:07:49.769 step forward, I hope, in a way 249 00:07:49.770 --> 00:07:51.089 that's interesting to you and ask. 250 00:07:51.090 --> 00:07:52.889 Because you've written at least one 251 00:07:52.890 --> 00:07:54.749 novel and 252 00:07:54.750 --> 00:07:56.429 worked in a variety of different 253 00:07:56.430 --> 00:07:57.749 forms, mostly nonfiction. 254 00:07:57.750 --> 00:07:59.339 But I wonder if when you're talking 255 00:07:59.340 --> 00:08:01.319 about working with a substance, 256 00:08:01.320 --> 00:08:02.320 in your experience, how 257 00:08:05.700 --> 00:08:07.349 do you think or how do you 258 00:08:07.350 --> 00:08:09.449 incorporate thinking about the genre 259 00:08:09.450 --> 00:08:10.389 that you're writing in? 260 00:08:10.390 --> 00:08:11.279 Are you thinking, "I'm going to 261 00:08:11.280 --> 00:08:12.599 approach this through a novelistic 262 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:13.649 perspective," or are you thinking, 263 00:08:13.650 --> 00:08:14.519 "I'm going to approach this from a 264 00:08:14.520 --> 00:08:15.629 nonfiction perspective?" 265 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:18.569 And how does that-- maybe when 266 00:08:18.570 --> 00:08:20.519 does it enter into your process of 267 00:08:20.520 --> 00:08:21.989 trying to kind of bring the 268 00:08:21.990 --> 00:08:23.850 substance to life in a certain way, 269 00:08:25.320 --> 00:08:26.639 if it does at all? Maybe it doesn't. 270 00:08:26.640 --> 00:08:27.839 And you just get done with it, and 271 00:08:27.840 --> 00:08:28.919 you look back on it and reflect 272 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:29.759 then. 273 00:08:29.760 --> 00:08:31.499 I once asked Diane Ackerman, 274 00:08:34.289 --> 00:08:36.209 who is 275 00:08:36.210 --> 00:08:38.519 formerly-- or who is both 276 00:08:38.520 --> 00:08:41.189 poet and 277 00:08:41.190 --> 00:08:42.329 a nonfiction writer. 278 00:08:42.330 --> 00:08:45.179 She wrote maybe her most significant 279 00:08:45.180 --> 00:08:47.429 book, well, the Zookeeper's Wife or 280 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:51.419 Natural History of the Senses. 281 00:08:51.420 --> 00:08:53.369 I went to ask her how she 282 00:08:53.370 --> 00:08:54.569 decided whether she was going to 283 00:08:54.570 --> 00:08:56.129 write poetry or prose. 284 00:08:56.130 --> 00:08:58.139 And she said, 285 00:08:58.140 --> 00:08:59.999 "I sit down and wait till 286 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:01.829 it comes out, and then 287 00:09:01.830 --> 00:09:03.689 it is what it is." 288 00:09:03.690 --> 00:09:05.639 And I'm a nonfiction 289 00:09:05.640 --> 00:09:07.499 writer, so I 290 00:09:07.500 --> 00:09:09.749 think that I want to tell 291 00:09:09.750 --> 00:09:11.129 true stories. 292 00:09:11.130 --> 00:09:12.539 And frankly, I have a very 293 00:09:12.540 --> 00:09:13.829 difficult-- yes, I've written a 294 00:09:13.830 --> 00:09:15.719 novel, but the novel was 295 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:17.510 so true that 296 00:09:18.570 --> 00:09:20.699 if I look back at it now, yes, 297 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:21.997 I changed some names. 298 00:09:21.998 --> 00:09:24.119 And yes, I made 299 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:25.409 some stuff up. 300 00:09:25.410 --> 00:09:27.419 I exaggerated a bit. 301 00:09:27.420 --> 00:09:29.699 But there is-- 302 00:09:29.700 --> 00:09:30.700 but it's very close 303 00:09:33.450 --> 00:09:34.769 to what happened to me when I was 304 00:09:34.770 --> 00:09:36.209 very young, growing up in 305 00:09:36.210 --> 00:09:37.319 Pittsburgh. 306 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:39.359 And if you look back 307 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:41.549 in time, this world of creative 308 00:09:41.550 --> 00:09:43.529 nonfiction was 309 00:09:43.530 --> 00:09:44.729 a blank world. 310 00:09:44.730 --> 00:09:45.988 It was a nowhere world 25 311 00:09:48.570 --> 00:09:50.669 years ago. 25 years ago, 312 00:09:50.670 --> 00:09:52.529 if you wanted to write something 313 00:09:52.530 --> 00:09:54.779 that was autobiographical, 314 00:09:54.780 --> 00:09:56.699 you wrote an autobiographical 315 00:09:56.700 --> 00:09:58.529 novel. And if you look at some of 316 00:09:58.530 --> 00:10:00.479 the greatest novels 317 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:02.789 that-- my favorite all-time 318 00:10:02.790 --> 00:10:04.182 book-- does anybody here know On 319 00:10:05.190 --> 00:10:06.190 the Road? 320 00:10:06.570 --> 00:10:07.799 On the Road, Jack Kerouac. 321 00:10:07.800 --> 00:10:09.119 You ever hear of Jack Kerouac, On 322 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:10.079 the Road? Okay. 323 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:11.080 Well, I've 324 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:14.999 only read Jack Kerouac, this 325 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:16.829 book maybe 12 times. 326 00:10:16.830 --> 00:10:18.719 And it's 327 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:22.319 so incredibly autobiographical. 328 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:24.149 And Kerouac, in the forties, when 329 00:10:24.150 --> 00:10:25.349 he started writing it and then 330 00:10:25.350 --> 00:10:27.659 publishing it in the fifties, 331 00:10:27.660 --> 00:10:29.969 he could not have written nonfiction 332 00:10:29.970 --> 00:10:30.989 like that. 333 00:10:30.990 --> 00:10:32.879 So no one even cared 334 00:10:32.880 --> 00:10:34.979 about or heard about this 335 00:10:34.980 --> 00:10:36.689 nonfiction, this creative 336 00:10:36.690 --> 00:10:38.039 nonfiction, this narrative 337 00:10:38.040 --> 00:10:39.029 nonfiction. 338 00:10:39.030 --> 00:10:40.030 So I 339 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:43.859 think about telling 340 00:10:43.860 --> 00:10:45.899 the truth, writing the truth as 341 00:10:45.900 --> 00:10:47.939 much as I can when I sit 342 00:10:47.940 --> 00:10:49.029 and I write. But 343 00:10:51.870 --> 00:10:53.219 I don't say I'm writing nonfiction. 344 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:55.349 I'm just writing the truest stories 345 00:10:55.350 --> 00:10:56.219 I can. 346 00:10:56.220 --> 00:10:58.109 And what do we want to do here? 347 00:10:58.110 --> 00:11:00.209 We want to write stories 348 00:11:00.210 --> 00:11:01.979 that connect with readers. 349 00:11:01.980 --> 00:11:04.499 We want to impact readers. 350 00:11:04.500 --> 00:11:06.779 We want to change readers' minds, 351 00:11:06.780 --> 00:11:08.729 whether we're writing poetry or 352 00:11:08.730 --> 00:11:10.649 fiction, or nonfiction. 353 00:11:10.650 --> 00:11:12.389 We want to connect with them. 354 00:11:12.390 --> 00:11:14.549 We want to take their damn breath 355 00:11:14.550 --> 00:11:16.529 away. We want them to 356 00:11:16.530 --> 00:11:18.419 listen to what we say, 357 00:11:18.420 --> 00:11:21.299 and we want them to be inspired 358 00:11:21.300 --> 00:11:23.309 and change, perhaps the way in which 359 00:11:23.310 --> 00:11:25.349 they think or how they look at 360 00:11:25.350 --> 00:11:27.749 people or events 361 00:11:27.750 --> 00:11:29.159 or their whole world. 362 00:11:29.160 --> 00:11:31.539 That's what we try to do as writers. 363 00:11:31.540 --> 00:11:33.569 I love creative nonfiction. 364 00:11:33.570 --> 00:11:35.549 It is my genre. 365 00:11:35.550 --> 00:11:37.079 I helped start it, and I helped 366 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:39.299 build it. But whatever 367 00:11:39.300 --> 00:11:40.300 we do, 368 00:11:43.380 --> 00:11:45.359 we have a bunch of very powerful 369 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:47.159 dictators around the world these 370 00:11:47.160 --> 00:11:49.619 days, political leaders, 371 00:11:49.620 --> 00:11:50.399 but never. 372 00:11:50.400 --> 00:11:52.319 I'm absolutely convinced 373 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:54.779 that the strongest, 374 00:11:54.780 --> 00:11:56.729 the most influential people who 375 00:11:56.730 --> 00:11:58.499 have ever lived have been writers. 376 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:00.329 Writers change the world, 377 00:12:00.330 --> 00:12:02.849 not people who are presidents or 378 00:12:02.850 --> 00:12:03.719 dictators. 379 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:05.639 Writers change the world. 380 00:12:05.640 --> 00:12:07.409 The books stay with us forever and 381 00:12:07.410 --> 00:12:08.729 ever, whether it's poetry or 382 00:12:08.730 --> 00:12:10.649 fiction, or nonfiction. 383 00:12:10.650 --> 00:12:11.650 Yeah. Well, 384 00:12:12.810 --> 00:12:14.699 maybe I can 385 00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:16.709 ask you a little bit about-- you 386 00:12:16.710 --> 00:12:17.759 said a little bit about creative 387 00:12:17.760 --> 00:12:20.009 nonfiction and the 388 00:12:20.010 --> 00:12:21.749 ability of someone like Kerouac in 389 00:12:21.750 --> 00:12:23.129 the forties and fifties to write in 390 00:12:23.130 --> 00:12:24.659 a genre like that versus your 391 00:12:24.660 --> 00:12:26.069 ability and people's ability now 392 00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:27.299 that it's more of a recognized 393 00:12:27.300 --> 00:12:28.300 genre. Maybe 394 00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:30.479 I want to ask you a little bit about 395 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:31.480 that. 396 00:12:32.430 --> 00:12:34.499 If I look back, it's interesting 397 00:12:34.500 --> 00:12:35.399 you mentioned On the Road because 398 00:12:35.400 --> 00:12:37.409 your first book seems to owe-- Bike 399 00:12:37.410 --> 00:12:38.999 Fever. Right? You were writing about 400 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:40.319 motorcycling and riding around. 401 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:41.399 And it seems now that you mentioned 402 00:12:41.400 --> 00:12:43.289 that the inspiration 403 00:12:43.290 --> 00:12:44.079 is clear. 404 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:45.750 That's something you enjoyed. 405 00:12:46.950 --> 00:12:48.959 But looking back to that book, 406 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:50.369 it was the early seventies, I don't 407 00:12:50.370 --> 00:12:52.259 know if-- I'm not sure 408 00:12:52.260 --> 00:12:54.269 when you started using the phrase 409 00:12:54.270 --> 00:12:56.219 creative nonfiction, but 410 00:12:56.220 --> 00:12:57.749 it seems like you were doing it like 411 00:12:57.750 --> 00:12:59.639 that's what that book is. 412 00:12:59.640 --> 00:13:00.839 When I hear you talk about creative 413 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:02.279 nonfiction now, you talk a lot about 414 00:13:02.280 --> 00:13:04.199 having seen and information and seen 415 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:05.429 and information and kind of mixing 416 00:13:05.430 --> 00:13:06.449 those things up. 417 00:13:06.450 --> 00:13:08.729 I see that in Bike Fever, 418 00:13:08.730 --> 00:13:11.099 but I think that's maybe before 419 00:13:11.100 --> 00:13:12.659 creative nonfiction existed as a 420 00:13:12.660 --> 00:13:13.949 genre. So can you talk a little bit 421 00:13:13.950 --> 00:13:15.299 about that? Like, how did it grow? 422 00:13:15.300 --> 00:13:17.489 Is it something that you that you 423 00:13:17.490 --> 00:13:19.319 thought of labeling 424 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:20.879 after you had already done it? 425 00:13:20.880 --> 00:13:22.049 I don't know, just talk a little bit 426 00:13:22.050 --> 00:13:24.179 about the growth of that as a thing. 427 00:13:26.150 --> 00:13:28.819 There were the new journalists 428 00:13:28.820 --> 00:13:31.459 and the new journalists like 429 00:13:31.460 --> 00:13:33.439 Gay Talese or 430 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:35.869 Tom Wolfe or 431 00:13:35.870 --> 00:13:37.805 Joan Didion that 432 00:13:37.806 --> 00:13:39.619 were around in the 433 00:13:39.620 --> 00:13:41.029 1960s. 434 00:13:41.030 --> 00:13:43.099 And they had this weird idea 435 00:13:43.100 --> 00:13:44.869 that you could use literary 436 00:13:44.870 --> 00:13:47.570 techniques, dialogue, description, 437 00:13:49.850 --> 00:13:51.409 your imagination. 438 00:13:51.410 --> 00:13:53.629 The first person to 439 00:13:53.630 --> 00:13:55.099 write nonfiction, to write 440 00:13:55.100 --> 00:13:56.089 journalism. 441 00:13:56.090 --> 00:13:58.849 And this was disallowed 442 00:13:58.850 --> 00:14:00.799 by journalists back then. 443 00:14:00.800 --> 00:14:01.669 You couldn't. 444 00:14:01.670 --> 00:14:04.129 Journalists back then couldn't 445 00:14:04.130 --> 00:14:06.079 tell their readers what they 446 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:06.949 thought. 447 00:14:06.950 --> 00:14:08.809 They could only try to be-- and 448 00:14:08.810 --> 00:14:09.979 this is so silly. 449 00:14:09.980 --> 00:14:12.709 They could only try to be objective. 450 00:14:12.710 --> 00:14:14.389 They couldn't be objective then. 451 00:14:14.390 --> 00:14:15.829 And of course, nobody cares about 452 00:14:15.830 --> 00:14:17.479 being objective now. 453 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:18.480 But 454 00:14:20.900 --> 00:14:22.277 the new journalists, Tom Wolfe-- 455 00:14:29.330 --> 00:14:30.452 Tom Wolfe died last month. 456 00:14:31.850 --> 00:14:33.199 He was in his mid-eighties, and he 457 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:34.909 became quite famous for 458 00:14:37.970 --> 00:14:38.899 writing novels. 459 00:14:38.900 --> 00:14:40.819 His big novel was The Bonfire of the 460 00:14:40.820 --> 00:14:41.869 Vanities. 461 00:14:41.870 --> 00:14:43.699 But before 462 00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:45.589 that, he wrote some really 463 00:14:45.590 --> 00:14:47.659 impactful books 464 00:14:47.660 --> 00:14:48.660 about 465 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:51.919 the world, about contemporary 466 00:14:51.920 --> 00:14:53.269 culture. 467 00:14:53.270 --> 00:14:54.270 And 468 00:14:55.160 --> 00:14:57.029 he used every possible 469 00:14:57.030 --> 00:14:58.030 technique 470 00:14:59.630 --> 00:15:00.630 he could use, 471 00:15:01.910 --> 00:15:03.979 including making up noises 472 00:15:03.980 --> 00:15:05.809 and sounds 473 00:15:05.810 --> 00:15:07.789 in his work. 474 00:15:07.790 --> 00:15:09.426 Here's the name of his-- here's 475 00:15:10.670 --> 00:15:12.649 the name of his-- the title of 476 00:15:12.650 --> 00:15:13.439 his first book. 477 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:14.440 Okay? 478 00:15:16.730 --> 00:15:19.489 I wrote this book, Bike Fever, 479 00:15:19.490 --> 00:15:20.419 that Dan's talking about. And it's 480 00:15:20.420 --> 00:15:22.339 about my travels 481 00:15:22.340 --> 00:15:23.518 in the hippie world as 482 00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:26.689 I drove back 483 00:15:26.690 --> 00:15:28.219 and forth across the United States 484 00:15:28.220 --> 00:15:29.599 on a two-wheeled machine, on a 485 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:30.600 motorcycle. 486 00:15:32.450 --> 00:15:34.519 But ten years before, there's Tom 487 00:15:34.520 --> 00:15:37.159 Wolfe, and he got really fascinated 488 00:15:37.160 --> 00:15:39.889 by the car designing, 489 00:15:39.890 --> 00:15:42.139 car customizing culture 490 00:15:42.140 --> 00:15:44.509 in Los Angeles 491 00:15:44.510 --> 00:15:45.829 in the middle sixties. 492 00:15:45.830 --> 00:15:48.079 And he spent lots and lots of time 493 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:49.819 hanging out with those people. 494 00:15:49.820 --> 00:15:50.820 And 495 00:15:53.450 --> 00:15:54.450 he thought they were artists, 496 00:15:55.580 --> 00:15:57.589 sculptors, and they were in many 497 00:15:57.590 --> 00:15:58.459 respects. 498 00:15:58.460 --> 00:16:00.158 And so here's this title: There 499 00:16:02.250 --> 00:16:03.250 Goes 500 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:04.783 (VAROOM! VAROOM!) That Kandy Kolored (THPHHHHHH!) tangerine-flake 501 00:16:04.784 --> 00:16:04.790 streamline baby (Rahghhhh!) around the bend (BRUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM......). 502 00:16:04.791 --> 00:16:05.791 And 503 00:16:14.130 --> 00:16:16.259 that is the title of his first 504 00:16:16.260 --> 00:16:18.599 essay of his first book. 505 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:20.519 And he made up words, and 506 00:16:20.520 --> 00:16:22.619 he screamed and yelled in capital 507 00:16:22.620 --> 00:16:24.389 letters to his readers. 508 00:16:24.390 --> 00:16:26.789 And he taught us, in the sixties, 509 00:16:26.790 --> 00:16:27.959 he taught us. 510 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:29.339 And he inspired me. 511 00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:30.779 Well, in the sixties, I was only ten 512 00:16:30.780 --> 00:16:31.780 years old. 513 00:16:33.030 --> 00:16:35.040 That's a lie. So that's 514 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:37.619 what we're not supposed to do in 515 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:39.239 creative nonfiction. 516 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:41.129 But he woke 517 00:16:41.130 --> 00:16:44.039 us up. He woke up journalists 518 00:16:44.040 --> 00:16:46.109 by telling us we could scream 519 00:16:46.110 --> 00:16:47.249 and yell, and we could make some 520 00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:49.109 noise, and we could attract 521 00:16:49.110 --> 00:16:50.609 attention with our words. 522 00:16:50.610 --> 00:16:52.559 And then Gay Talese, also 523 00:16:52.560 --> 00:16:53.560 in the sixties. 524 00:16:56.160 --> 00:16:58.049 It was then that we 525 00:16:58.050 --> 00:17:00.059 had to be very careful, 526 00:17:00.060 --> 00:17:02.639 and we would see things 527 00:17:02.640 --> 00:17:04.618 that we weren't allowed 528 00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:06.239 to report. 529 00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:10.709 Talese saw this incredible 530 00:17:10.710 --> 00:17:12.689 confrontation between this 531 00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:14.818 guy you might have heard of 532 00:17:14.819 --> 00:17:17.099 named Frank Sinatra and 533 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:20.459 a young screenwriter 534 00:17:20.460 --> 00:17:21.574 in the billiard room of 535 00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:24.579 a fancy 536 00:17:25.530 --> 00:17:27.358 private club in Los Angeles, 537 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:28.499 in Hollywood. 538 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:30.269 And they had a big fight. 539 00:17:30.270 --> 00:17:32.429 And Sinatra was mean 540 00:17:32.430 --> 00:17:34.319 and nasty and ripped this 541 00:17:34.320 --> 00:17:35.489 guy apart. 542 00:17:35.490 --> 00:17:37.349 And usually the last thing 543 00:17:37.350 --> 00:17:38.332 a writer would have done-- and 544 00:17:38.333 --> 00:17:39.333 Talese 545 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:41.429 was there. 546 00:17:41.430 --> 00:17:43.739 And Talese whipped out his notebook 547 00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:46.319 and started writing everything down. 548 00:17:46.320 --> 00:17:48.359 And in the end, he 549 00:17:48.360 --> 00:17:50.249 recreated this scene 550 00:17:50.250 --> 00:17:52.469 showing what a dirty, rotten 551 00:17:52.470 --> 00:17:54.299 rat Frank Sinatra 552 00:17:54.300 --> 00:17:55.949 really was. 553 00:17:55.950 --> 00:17:56.950 And 554 00:17:59.820 --> 00:18:01.859 showing, not telling, what 555 00:18:01.860 --> 00:18:03.929 a rat Sinatra was. 556 00:18:03.930 --> 00:18:05.600 And it appeared 557 00:18:06.750 --> 00:18:08.939 in a 558 00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:10.829 22,000 559 00:18:10.830 --> 00:18:12.929 word article in 560 00:18:12.930 --> 00:18:15.359 Esquire magazine entitled 561 00:18:15.360 --> 00:18:17.359 Frank Sinatra has a Cold 562 00:18:17.360 --> 00:18:19.229 because what Talese was doing was 563 00:18:19.230 --> 00:18:22.229 following Frank Sinatra around 564 00:18:22.230 --> 00:18:23.390 because he had come out to 565 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:26.429 interview him, and 566 00:18:26.430 --> 00:18:28.409 Sinatra would not talk to 567 00:18:28.410 --> 00:18:30.569 him, even though he had promised 568 00:18:30.570 --> 00:18:32.409 Talese he could interview him, 569 00:18:32.410 --> 00:18:34.499 and he wouldn't talk to him 570 00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:37.319 because he had a cold. 571 00:18:37.320 --> 00:18:39.209 And so Talese decided that 572 00:18:39.210 --> 00:18:41.519 he was going to run, watch 573 00:18:41.520 --> 00:18:43.469 Sinatra from place 574 00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:45.509 to place for the next two months, 575 00:18:45.510 --> 00:18:48.059 and then write this piece about 576 00:18:48.060 --> 00:18:50.039 what Frank Sinatra was like when 577 00:18:50.040 --> 00:18:51.149 he had a cold. 578 00:18:51.150 --> 00:18:51.999 Okay? 579 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:53.939 And as it turned out, the 580 00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:56.069 real truth of it is 581 00:18:56.070 --> 00:18:57.599 that Sinatra 582 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:00.239 was a rotten human being when he 583 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:02.279 didn't have a cold, and he was worse 584 00:19:02.280 --> 00:19:03.280 when he had a cold. 585 00:19:06.570 --> 00:19:08.759 Those two guys broke things 586 00:19:08.760 --> 00:19:11.159 open for people like me 587 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.499 and excited 588 00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:15.329 me to no end that 589 00:19:15.330 --> 00:19:17.219 you could 590 00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:18.359 be a writer. 591 00:19:18.360 --> 00:19:20.579 You have to understand that a while 592 00:19:20.580 --> 00:19:21.580 ago, 593 00:19:22.800 --> 00:19:24.759 there was a dean 594 00:19:24.760 --> 00:19:25.809 here at the University of 595 00:19:25.810 --> 00:19:26.979 Pittsburgh. 596 00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:28.195 We once had a 597 00:19:31.150 --> 00:19:32.829 journalism department, and it was 598 00:19:32.830 --> 00:19:34.719 decided that 599 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:36.549 there would be no more journalism. 600 00:19:36.550 --> 00:19:38.409 And the dean said - this is a long 601 00:19:38.410 --> 00:19:39.410 time ago - "Journalism. 602 00:19:40.180 --> 00:19:41.380 It's like plumbing." 603 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:43.269 Okay? 604 00:19:43.270 --> 00:19:46.179 It was very formulaic. 605 00:19:46.180 --> 00:19:48.969 And lots of people thought that. 606 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:50.949 But Talese 607 00:19:50.950 --> 00:19:53.349 and Wolfe, and Norman Mailer 608 00:19:53.350 --> 00:19:55.269 later, and Joan 609 00:19:55.270 --> 00:19:57.249 Didion around that same 610 00:19:57.250 --> 00:19:59.139 time. And another guy named Truman 611 00:19:59.140 --> 00:20:00.819 Capote, who wrote this incredible 612 00:20:00.820 --> 00:20:02.739 book called In Cold Blood. 613 00:20:02.740 --> 00:20:03.999 They woke us up. 614 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:05.919 They woke people like me up. 615 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:07.749 And we 616 00:20:07.750 --> 00:20:09.879 began writing 617 00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:12.459 as thinking 618 00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:15.069 that nonfiction can be an art 619 00:20:15.070 --> 00:20:17.409 as much as poetry and drama 620 00:20:17.410 --> 00:20:18.279 and fiction. 621 00:20:18.280 --> 00:20:21.369 And that was not thought of before. 622 00:20:21.370 --> 00:20:23.259 Now, the term creative 623 00:20:23.260 --> 00:20:24.260 nonfiction. 624 00:20:25.810 --> 00:20:26.919 People called it all kinds of 625 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:28.539 different things: literary 626 00:20:28.540 --> 00:20:29.540 journalism, 627 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:33.160 narrative journalism. 628 00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:37.389 There were many debates about what 629 00:20:37.390 --> 00:20:38.859 it should be called. 630 00:20:38.860 --> 00:20:40.959 But finally, this term creative 631 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:42.939 nonfiction, which I liked, and 632 00:20:42.940 --> 00:20:44.979 I can't say I made it up. 633 00:20:44.980 --> 00:20:46.539 I can't say I didn't make it up. 634 00:20:46.540 --> 00:20:48.789 I just haven't the slightest idea. 635 00:20:48.790 --> 00:20:50.619 Many of us started using at 636 00:20:50.620 --> 00:20:52.809 the same time, and this term 637 00:20:52.810 --> 00:20:55.509 creative nonfiction became accepted 638 00:20:55.510 --> 00:20:56.510 when the 639 00:20:57.550 --> 00:20:59.409 National Endowment for the Arts 640 00:20:59.410 --> 00:21:01.809 decided that they would include 641 00:21:01.810 --> 00:21:03.789 nonfiction 642 00:21:03.790 --> 00:21:05.469 in their creative writing 643 00:21:06.910 --> 00:21:08.049 fellowships. 644 00:21:08.050 --> 00:21:10.059 They gave $25,000 645 00:21:10.060 --> 00:21:12.279 to 200 writers across 646 00:21:12.280 --> 00:21:13.280 the United States, poets 647 00:21:14.140 --> 00:21:15.279 and fiction writers. 648 00:21:15.280 --> 00:21:17.199 And finally, they decided to 649 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:18.789 give it to nonfiction writers as 650 00:21:18.790 --> 00:21:20.619 well. And they needed to decide 651 00:21:20.620 --> 00:21:22.239 what the name would be. 652 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:24.129 And many of us fought over what 653 00:21:24.130 --> 00:21:25.359 we should call it. 654 00:21:25.360 --> 00:21:27.189 And the NEA finally decided 655 00:21:27.190 --> 00:21:28.149 we're going to call it creative 656 00:21:28.150 --> 00:21:29.079 nonfiction. 657 00:21:29.080 --> 00:21:30.849 And it was the best thing to happen 658 00:21:30.850 --> 00:21:31.850 because what 659 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:34.209 also happened with creative 660 00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:36.309 nonfiction that was really important 661 00:21:36.310 --> 00:21:37.310 and interesting 662 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:40.569 is that what made it so 663 00:21:40.570 --> 00:21:43.179 popular and so successful 664 00:21:43.180 --> 00:21:46.059 is not that journalists 665 00:21:46.060 --> 00:21:48.369 started writing this stuff, 666 00:21:48.370 --> 00:21:49.370 but poets 667 00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:54.869 and fiction writers started 668 00:21:54.870 --> 00:21:57.209 to cross genres 669 00:21:57.210 --> 00:21:59.130 and write creative nonfiction. 670 00:22:01.020 --> 00:22:02.020 Philip Roth, John 671 00:22:03.030 --> 00:22:05.189 Updike, Diane 672 00:22:05.190 --> 00:22:07.559 Akerman, Mary Karr. 673 00:22:07.560 --> 00:22:09.629 Poets and fiction writers 674 00:22:09.630 --> 00:22:11.909 decided that maybe they could 675 00:22:11.910 --> 00:22:14.099 experiment with this form 676 00:22:14.100 --> 00:22:15.899 and make an impact different than 677 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:17.189 the impact they were making with 678 00:22:17.190 --> 00:22:18.359 their work. 679 00:22:18.360 --> 00:22:20.669 And so that happened 680 00:22:20.670 --> 00:22:23.129 again in the late seventies, 681 00:22:23.130 --> 00:22:25.349 the early eighties, and 682 00:22:25.350 --> 00:22:27.719 all of this excited a cadre 683 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:29.300 of people like me to 684 00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:32.107 experiment with this work and 685 00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.419 make it as respected as drama 686 00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:38.489 and poetry and fiction. 687 00:22:38.490 --> 00:22:40.259 Yeah. I mean, one of the things that 688 00:22:40.260 --> 00:22:42.119 you-- I'm thinking back to 689 00:22:42.120 --> 00:22:43.739 another collection of yours. 690 00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:45.269 You have a collection of personal 691 00:22:45.270 --> 00:22:47.349 essays called Forever Fat. 692 00:22:47.350 --> 00:22:48.269 Good, interesting title. 693 00:22:48.270 --> 00:22:49.109 I recommend it. It's a great 694 00:22:49.110 --> 00:22:50.309 collection. 695 00:22:50.310 --> 00:22:51.899 In the beginning of it, you talk a 696 00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:52.900 little bit about 697 00:22:54.270 --> 00:22:55.799 the history of the genre, and it's 698 00:22:55.800 --> 00:22:57.659 about your earning the label 699 00:22:57.660 --> 00:22:58.660 of the godfather. 700 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.349 It's also an interesting story. 701 00:23:01.350 --> 00:23:03.239 But you talk 702 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:05.849 there about all of the-- 703 00:23:05.850 --> 00:23:07.619 okay. So, on the one hand, creative 704 00:23:07.620 --> 00:23:08.549 nonfiction writing 705 00:23:08.550 --> 00:23:10.409 autobiographically, there are 706 00:23:10.410 --> 00:23:11.429 a number of critics and people who 707 00:23:11.430 --> 00:23:12.269 talk about it just being 708 00:23:12.270 --> 00:23:13.379 navel-gazing. That kind of thing. 709 00:23:13.380 --> 00:23:15.389 But there are a number of people 710 00:23:15.390 --> 00:23:16.889 who do. You mentioned John Edgar 711 00:23:16.890 --> 00:23:17.890 Wideman in 712 00:23:18.810 --> 00:23:20.009 Brothers and Keepers, another 713 00:23:20.010 --> 00:23:21.209 Pittsburgh writer. You just went 714 00:23:21.210 --> 00:23:22.619 through a very big list of people 715 00:23:22.620 --> 00:23:23.620 who were able to do-- who 716 00:23:24.610 --> 00:23:26.849 were able to do what you say is work 717 00:23:26.850 --> 00:23:28.679 through the personal and get to 718 00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:29.639 something universal. 719 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:31.079 Right? And I wonder if you can talk 720 00:23:31.080 --> 00:23:32.129 a little bit about that in your own 721 00:23:32.130 --> 00:23:33.599 work. I think a lot of the writing 722 00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:35.939 that I've read of yours that's 723 00:23:35.940 --> 00:23:37.289 how I would describe what happens 724 00:23:37.290 --> 00:23:38.579 there. You write in Many Sleepless 725 00:23:38.580 --> 00:23:40.029 Nights about organ transplantation. 726 00:23:40.030 --> 00:23:41.129 There's something about-- is a very 727 00:23:41.130 --> 00:23:43.319 particular kind of medical procedure 728 00:23:43.320 --> 00:23:44.579 that you're kind of starting with 729 00:23:44.580 --> 00:23:46.439 there. And you embedded yourself 730 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:48.149 in that world for a number of years 731 00:23:48.150 --> 00:23:49.289 to write it. 732 00:23:49.290 --> 00:23:50.579 But there is something universal and 733 00:23:50.580 --> 00:23:51.580 something human that 734 00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:55.409 I see when I read that book. 735 00:23:55.410 --> 00:23:56.699 Can you talk a little bit about that 736 00:23:56.700 --> 00:23:58.619 and how you think about that in 737 00:23:58.620 --> 00:23:59.669 your work? 738 00:23:59.670 --> 00:24:00.689 How do you get to that? 739 00:24:00.690 --> 00:24:02.279 How do you, as a writer, get from 740 00:24:02.280 --> 00:24:03.689 that personal to the universal? 741 00:24:07.170 --> 00:24:08.910 You mentioned embedding. 742 00:24:10.770 --> 00:24:11.909 Well, we call ourselves 743 00:24:11.910 --> 00:24:12.910 immersionists. 744 00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:15.629 And there's the subject. 745 00:24:15.630 --> 00:24:16.630 So I'll show you. 746 00:24:21.150 --> 00:24:23.249 She did that in her 747 00:24:23.250 --> 00:24:24.250 essay. 748 00:24:25.050 --> 00:24:27.269 She gave us some style, 749 00:24:27.270 --> 00:24:28.865 that is to say, her personal story, 750 00:24:28.866 --> 00:24:29.866 which 751 00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:32.529 she lived. 752 00:24:32.530 --> 00:24:35.099 And also, 753 00:24:35.100 --> 00:24:37.409 she, in many ways, embedded herself 754 00:24:37.410 --> 00:24:39.359 in this subject 755 00:24:39.360 --> 00:24:41.309 that she used to braid 756 00:24:41.310 --> 00:24:42.310 between 757 00:24:43.140 --> 00:24:45.629 her story and her information. 758 00:24:45.630 --> 00:24:46.630 And 759 00:24:48.090 --> 00:24:50.579 what most writers 760 00:24:50.580 --> 00:24:52.829 are doing now, even fiction writers, 761 00:24:52.830 --> 00:24:54.819 but most writers are doing now, 762 00:24:54.820 --> 00:24:56.939 are trying to become part 763 00:24:56.940 --> 00:24:59.969 of the story, not necessarily 764 00:24:59.970 --> 00:25:02.039 in a first-person manner but 765 00:25:02.040 --> 00:25:03.989 trying to find a way 766 00:25:03.990 --> 00:25:04.990 into 767 00:25:05.850 --> 00:25:07.889 the realism of the 768 00:25:07.890 --> 00:25:10.109 experience and 769 00:25:10.110 --> 00:25:12.042 science, by the way, and 770 00:25:12.043 --> 00:25:14.249 medicine. These are great. 771 00:25:14.250 --> 00:25:15.179 I mean, if you're going to do 772 00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:17.159 something-- we started out talking 773 00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:18.160 about science. 774 00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:21.299 And science is so challenging 775 00:25:21.300 --> 00:25:23.429 and interesting to be able 776 00:25:23.430 --> 00:25:25.499 to mix this style 777 00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:26.609 and substance and 778 00:25:27.750 --> 00:25:29.579 to do this embedding 779 00:25:29.580 --> 00:25:31.259 or immersion work. 780 00:25:31.260 --> 00:25:33.269 For a long time, scientists 781 00:25:33.270 --> 00:25:35.069 have been hiding behind their 782 00:25:35.070 --> 00:25:37.079 research and their work. 783 00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:40.109 And in fact, today, 784 00:25:40.110 --> 00:25:41.490 even in many 785 00:25:42.840 --> 00:25:44.999 science-oriented departments 786 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:46.619 like chemistry or physics or 787 00:25:46.620 --> 00:25:48.959 wherever, if you write a popular 788 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.939 book, it's not going to help you 789 00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:51.899 get tenure. 790 00:25:51.900 --> 00:25:53.279 It's not going to help you. 791 00:25:53.280 --> 00:25:54.280 Your 792 00:25:55.170 --> 00:25:57.089 colleagues don't want you. 793 00:25:57.090 --> 00:25:59.069 Well, I won't say they don't want 794 00:25:59.070 --> 00:26:00.659 you to be popular, but they still 795 00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:02.219 want to be more popular than you. 796 00:26:03.690 --> 00:26:06.659 It's very difficult 797 00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:07.660 to 798 00:26:09.600 --> 00:26:11.129 break this bond. 799 00:26:11.130 --> 00:26:12.869 But slowly but surely, I mean, 800 00:26:12.870 --> 00:26:14.279 you're here because you're 801 00:26:14.280 --> 00:26:16.379 interested in how to connect 802 00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:18.449 science with the real world. 803 00:26:18.450 --> 00:26:20.699 And scientists are incredibly 804 00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:22.409 mysterious people. 805 00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:24.449 They hide behind their 806 00:26:24.450 --> 00:26:26.489 test tubes and their research and 807 00:26:26.490 --> 00:26:27.490 their computer screens. 808 00:26:28.320 --> 00:26:30.329 I remember I did this book. 809 00:26:30.330 --> 00:26:31.589 I embedded myself 810 00:26:33.510 --> 00:26:35.249 at the Robotics Institute at 811 00:26:35.250 --> 00:26:37.349 Carnegie Mellon off and on 812 00:26:37.350 --> 00:26:38.519 for six years. 813 00:26:38.520 --> 00:26:41.339 And it was really difficult 814 00:26:41.340 --> 00:26:43.529 to do because, 815 00:26:43.530 --> 00:26:45.359 I mean, when I embedded, 816 00:26:45.360 --> 00:26:47.219 when I spent time in the organ 817 00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:48.869 transplant world-- I'll get back to 818 00:26:48.870 --> 00:26:50.219 robotics in a second. 819 00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:52.199 When I spent time in the organ 820 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:54.029 transplant world, I 821 00:26:54.030 --> 00:26:56.099 mean, people were living and dying 822 00:26:56.100 --> 00:26:58.169 every day. It was wonderful 823 00:26:58.170 --> 00:26:59.879 from a writers point of view. 824 00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:01.799 And I mean life 825 00:27:01.800 --> 00:27:03.239 and death. What else do you want to 826 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:04.559 talk about? That's why medicine is 827 00:27:04.560 --> 00:27:05.819 so exciting. 828 00:27:05.820 --> 00:27:07.589 We all connect with medicine. 829 00:27:07.590 --> 00:27:09.076 We all have doctors we hate. 830 00:27:09.077 --> 00:27:10.077 And so that's 831 00:27:13.050 --> 00:27:13.829 really exciting. 832 00:27:13.830 --> 00:27:15.899 And we can all make 833 00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:17.759 this connection, no matter what 834 00:27:17.760 --> 00:27:18.760 it is. 835 00:27:19.460 --> 00:27:21.180 What is wrong with us? 836 00:27:22.350 --> 00:27:23.639 We can make many connections. 837 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:24.654 If we're not having heart problems, 838 00:27:24.655 --> 00:27:26.579 our mom is 839 00:27:26.580 --> 00:27:28.229 having heart problems, or whatever. 840 00:27:28.230 --> 00:27:29.549 We make this connection. 841 00:27:29.550 --> 00:27:31.445 And so there's great drama 842 00:27:34.330 --> 00:27:36.209 in an organ transplantation. 843 00:27:36.210 --> 00:27:38.279 In organ transplantation, 844 00:27:38.280 --> 00:27:40.109 and especially 845 00:27:40.110 --> 00:27:41.110 in the early days, all 846 00:27:43.380 --> 00:27:45.329 kinds of mysteries, a person would 847 00:27:45.330 --> 00:27:47.309 come to the transplant 848 00:27:47.310 --> 00:27:48.310 center here. 849 00:27:50.670 --> 00:27:51.749 They had no choice. 850 00:27:51.750 --> 00:27:53.639 I mean, it's not like-- this was 851 00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:55.259 the only place to come for many 852 00:27:55.260 --> 00:27:57.599 years for a liver transplant, 853 00:27:57.600 --> 00:27:59.609 for example, and even for a lung 854 00:27:59.610 --> 00:28:00.479 transplant. 855 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:01.979 And they would come here and 856 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:05.099 wait. And sometimes I followed 857 00:28:05.100 --> 00:28:07.259 people who had waited, who came here 858 00:28:07.260 --> 00:28:09.599 on the verge of death, who somehow 859 00:28:09.600 --> 00:28:11.489 struggled to live for two or 860 00:28:11.490 --> 00:28:12.959 two and a half or three years, 861 00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:14.819 waiting for the right kind of organ 862 00:28:14.820 --> 00:28:15.820 that fit them 863 00:28:16.890 --> 00:28:18.959 to come to be 864 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:19.829 available. 865 00:28:19.830 --> 00:28:20.830 So 866 00:28:21.750 --> 00:28:23.909 the suspense and the intrigue 867 00:28:23.910 --> 00:28:25.859 and the drama and 868 00:28:25.860 --> 00:28:27.749 this life and death, up and down 869 00:28:27.750 --> 00:28:29.807 cycle, it's terrific for medicine. 870 00:28:31.020 --> 00:28:33.179 But the scientists, unless 871 00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:35.249 the scientist is dying from 872 00:28:35.250 --> 00:28:36.629 heart disease or something like 873 00:28:36.630 --> 00:28:37.630 that, 874 00:28:38.760 --> 00:28:39.900 it's a little bit different. 875 00:28:41.730 --> 00:28:43.679 But what we want 876 00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:45.719 to know as readers is 877 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:47.879 not necessarily 878 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:50.339 the thrust of your research. 879 00:28:50.340 --> 00:28:52.589 What we want to know 880 00:28:52.590 --> 00:28:54.899 as readers is who 881 00:28:54.900 --> 00:28:57.389 you are, and what 882 00:28:57.390 --> 00:28:59.609 you are trying to 883 00:28:59.610 --> 00:29:02.369 do, and 884 00:29:02.370 --> 00:29:04.499 the process by which 885 00:29:04.500 --> 00:29:06.899 you do it in language 886 00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:08.849 that the general public needs to 887 00:29:08.850 --> 00:29:10.499 understand. 888 00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:12.509 Honestly, the essence 889 00:29:12.510 --> 00:29:14.519 of the research is 890 00:29:14.520 --> 00:29:16.709 only a small part 891 00:29:16.710 --> 00:29:19.259 of what a science writer 892 00:29:19.260 --> 00:29:21.509 should be thinking about doing. 893 00:29:21.510 --> 00:29:23.099 The essence of the research is 894 00:29:23.100 --> 00:29:25.199 interesting, but 895 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:26.279 we want to know 896 00:29:27.840 --> 00:29:29.909 how long you're working, how hard 897 00:29:29.910 --> 00:29:32.609 you're working, what you do 898 00:29:32.610 --> 00:29:34.739 when you leave the lab 899 00:29:34.740 --> 00:29:36.749 and practice 900 00:29:36.750 --> 00:29:38.669 yoga or walk down 901 00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:40.499 the street with your girlfriend, or 902 00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:41.819 whatever it is. 903 00:29:41.820 --> 00:29:43.112 That's what we want to know because 904 00:29:44.130 --> 00:29:46.199 that's how we connect 905 00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:48.659 with you, the scientist. 906 00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:50.159 And that's so important for us to 907 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.529 understand talking about 908 00:29:52.530 --> 00:29:55.529 something in relation to technology 909 00:29:55.530 --> 00:29:57.509 and science that 910 00:29:57.510 --> 00:29:58.510 the reader 911 00:29:59.550 --> 00:30:01.919 is a human being just like 912 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.019 the person who is writing. 913 00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:06.059 And those connections, those human 914 00:30:06.060 --> 00:30:08.309 connections, have to be made. 915 00:30:08.310 --> 00:30:10.619 Research for the reader 916 00:30:10.620 --> 00:30:12.779 is less important than 917 00:30:12.780 --> 00:30:15.059 the researcher and the process 918 00:30:15.060 --> 00:30:17.129 by which the researcher 919 00:30:17.130 --> 00:30:18.130 gets to it. So 920 00:30:20.710 --> 00:30:22.599 as I said, it was really exciting to 921 00:30:22.600 --> 00:30:24.157 be involved in 922 00:30:25.990 --> 00:30:26.859 medicine. 923 00:30:26.860 --> 00:30:28.959 But how would you like to 924 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:30.789 hang out with 925 00:30:30.790 --> 00:30:33.569 a bunch of code-writing roboticists? 926 00:30:33.570 --> 00:30:34.570 Okay? 927 00:30:34.930 --> 00:30:36.999 So I can tell you this. 928 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:38.979 I spent sometimes six 929 00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:41.169 or eight hours watching 930 00:30:41.170 --> 00:30:43.419 these geeky guys 931 00:30:43.420 --> 00:30:45.430 looking into a display 932 00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:48.819 without doing 933 00:30:48.820 --> 00:30:50.739 anything except ordering 934 00:30:50.740 --> 00:30:53.559 pizza and 935 00:30:53.560 --> 00:30:54.819 poking one another. 936 00:30:54.820 --> 00:30:56.709 Once in a while, they 937 00:30:56.710 --> 00:30:58.465 look at the display, and they 938 00:30:58.466 --> 00:31:00.579 laughed. Now, what they're laughing 939 00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:01.479 about, I haven't had the slightest 940 00:31:01.480 --> 00:31:03.399 idea. And so 941 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:04.449 you sit there for a while. 942 00:31:04.450 --> 00:31:05.450 And 943 00:31:06.730 --> 00:31:08.649 so it's really hard sometimes to do 944 00:31:08.650 --> 00:31:10.719 that. And I had to wait a long, 945 00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:12.669 long time to figure out who 946 00:31:12.670 --> 00:31:14.769 they were and 947 00:31:14.770 --> 00:31:16.599 why they were pointing at the 948 00:31:16.600 --> 00:31:17.600 screen. 949 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:20.229 But that's perhaps 950 00:31:20.230 --> 00:31:21.759 what made the book successful. 951 00:31:21.760 --> 00:31:23.559 And that's what will make you all 952 00:31:23.560 --> 00:31:25.449 successful if you kind 953 00:31:25.450 --> 00:31:27.909 of think about 954 00:31:27.910 --> 00:31:29.619 you're in this university. 955 00:31:29.620 --> 00:31:31.209 It's an absolutely wonderful 956 00:31:31.210 --> 00:31:33.039 university, and some 957 00:31:33.040 --> 00:31:34.989 terrific work is being done. 958 00:31:34.990 --> 00:31:37.149 But remember that you, to 959 00:31:37.150 --> 00:31:38.919 the reader, are more important than 960 00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:40.127 the work, and how 961 00:31:41.170 --> 00:31:42.789 you achieve what it is you're 962 00:31:42.790 --> 00:31:44.799 achieving to the reader is 963 00:31:44.800 --> 00:31:46.659 more important than what you 964 00:31:46.660 --> 00:31:48.609 achieve. Honestly. 965 00:31:48.610 --> 00:31:49.779 Would it be, I wonder-- that's 966 00:31:49.780 --> 00:31:51.729 great. Thanks so much for that 967 00:31:51.730 --> 00:31:53.019 answer and explanation. 968 00:31:53.020 --> 00:31:54.249 I mean, I wonder, thinking about the 969 00:31:54.250 --> 00:31:55.479 books and the places that you've 970 00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:56.859 embedded yourself, it strikes me 971 00:31:56.860 --> 00:31:58.599 that like the-- and I really 972 00:31:58.600 --> 00:31:59.919 appreciate you talking about the way 973 00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:01.689 that kind of like you need-- you've 974 00:32:01.690 --> 00:32:02.679 written about this too. It takes 975 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:03.759 time, takes patience. 976 00:32:03.760 --> 00:32:05.199 You need to kind of wait until you 977 00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:07.279 can get and see what the story 978 00:32:07.280 --> 00:32:08.280 is. 979 00:32:08.560 --> 00:32:10.239 But thinking about the things that 980 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:11.259 you've written against organ 981 00:32:11.260 --> 00:32:12.789 transplantation and robotics like 982 00:32:12.790 --> 00:32:14.589 they're Pittsburgh things. 983 00:32:14.590 --> 00:32:15.819 Right? So I mean, has that been-- I 984 00:32:15.820 --> 00:32:17.769 mean, it seems like maybe it's 985 00:32:17.770 --> 00:32:18.909 been important for you to kind of 986 00:32:18.910 --> 00:32:20.559 look at what's here, what's around 987 00:32:20.560 --> 00:32:21.649 you. Right? Has that been an 988 00:32:21.650 --> 00:32:22.929 important thing for you in your 989 00:32:22.930 --> 00:32:23.930 life? 990 00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:26.859 When I started writing, I 991 00:32:26.860 --> 00:32:27.669 thought I would never leave 992 00:32:27.670 --> 00:32:29.379 Pittsburgh, number one. 993 00:32:29.380 --> 00:32:31.809 And I believe-- and frankly, 994 00:32:31.810 --> 00:32:32.679 I thought I'd never leave the 995 00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:33.680 University of Pittsburgh. 996 00:32:34.930 --> 00:32:36.699 I was an undergraduate here. 997 00:32:36.700 --> 00:32:39.039 And in fact, 998 00:32:39.040 --> 00:32:41.049 I was the only 999 00:32:41.050 --> 00:32:42.909 full professor with tenure 1000 00:32:42.910 --> 00:32:44.889 without any advanced degrees 1001 00:32:44.890 --> 00:32:46.389 whatsoever. 1002 00:32:46.390 --> 00:32:48.009 I wrote this book, Bike Fever. 1003 00:32:48.010 --> 00:32:49.059 It did very well. 1004 00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:51.999 Creative nonfiction started coming 1005 00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:53.739 alive, and the folks in the English 1006 00:32:53.740 --> 00:32:55.599 department thought, this is the 1007 00:32:55.600 --> 00:32:57.939 perfect time to get 1008 00:32:57.940 --> 00:32:59.799 a published author. 1009 00:33:01.570 --> 00:33:03.549 All right, he didn't have a Ph.D., 1010 00:33:03.550 --> 00:33:05.619 but he did have a motorcycle. 1011 00:33:05.620 --> 00:33:06.620 So this 1012 00:33:07.570 --> 00:33:09.429 was something back then. 1013 00:33:09.430 --> 00:33:11.439 And I had good long hair, and 1014 00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:12.339 I had sideburns. 1015 00:33:12.340 --> 00:33:13.779 I had the greatest sideburns. 1016 00:33:13.780 --> 00:33:15.639 And this was good in the seventies 1017 00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:17.959 for English departments 1018 00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:18.939 now. 1019 00:33:18.940 --> 00:33:20.559 And I didn't wear Birkenstocks. 1020 00:33:20.560 --> 00:33:21.639 I wore boots. 1021 00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:23.500 So I was different. 1022 00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:26.559 So yeah. And I 1023 00:33:26.560 --> 00:33:28.179 tell my students, and I'm telling 1024 00:33:28.180 --> 00:33:29.180 you guys, 1025 00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:34.329 it makes sense when you write 1026 00:33:34.330 --> 00:33:35.330 to act 1027 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:40.109 locally and think globally. 1028 00:33:40.110 --> 00:33:41.110 That is to say 1029 00:33:42.990 --> 00:33:44.639 there are all kinds of amazing 1030 00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.829 things happening in this 1031 00:33:46.830 --> 00:33:48.719 town and in 1032 00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:50.459 many other places and in this 1033 00:33:50.460 --> 00:33:52.079 university. 1034 00:33:52.080 --> 00:33:53.969 And many 1035 00:33:53.970 --> 00:33:55.371 of those things are 1036 00:33:56.670 --> 00:33:58.499 as important for a 1037 00:33:58.500 --> 00:33:59.526 writer to think about, information 1038 00:34:03.600 --> 00:34:05.579 and ideas that resonate both 1039 00:34:05.580 --> 00:34:08.218 in Pittsburgh, but also in 1040 00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:10.169 Peoria, and 1041 00:34:10.170 --> 00:34:12.269 also in Sydney, Australia, 1042 00:34:12.270 --> 00:34:13.408 or wherever. 1043 00:34:13.409 --> 00:34:14.409 And so you look-- so 1044 00:34:15.510 --> 00:34:17.399 if you can stay here, 1045 00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:19.319 then you don't have to, as an 1046 00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:21.178 impressionist, what 1047 00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:23.849 we call parachute into 1048 00:34:23.850 --> 00:34:24.869 a subject. 1049 00:34:24.870 --> 00:34:26.428 So there are people who say, "Okay, 1050 00:34:26.429 --> 00:34:27.479 I'd really like to write about 1051 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:28.678 something that's happening in Los 1052 00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:29.908 Angeles, but it's going to take me 1053 00:34:29.909 --> 00:34:31.769 six months." Well, you go back and 1054 00:34:31.770 --> 00:34:33.599 forth. Who can afford to move 1055 00:34:33.600 --> 00:34:35.428 to Los Angeles for six months? 1056 00:34:35.429 --> 00:34:37.319 So we end up parachuting 1057 00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:39.158 in for a day or two or three. 1058 00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:41.189 But if you can live with your work 1059 00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:44.069 or live with the people, watch the 1060 00:34:44.070 --> 00:34:45.928 people, do the 1061 00:34:45.929 --> 00:34:47.519 work that you're interested in, 1062 00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:51.539 and then figure out how-- 1063 00:34:51.540 --> 00:34:53.039 this is so hard, by the way. 1064 00:34:53.040 --> 00:34:54.269 I've worked with a lot of 1065 00:34:54.270 --> 00:34:55.809 Pittsburghers, and 1066 00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:59.729 people love Pittsburgh so much that, 1067 00:34:59.730 --> 00:35:01.589 in many respects, they 1068 00:35:01.590 --> 00:35:03.089 don't want to see other parts of the 1069 00:35:03.090 --> 00:35:04.229 world. And 1070 00:35:06.240 --> 00:35:07.129 it's a terrible thing to say. 1071 00:35:07.130 --> 00:35:08.369 I love Pittsburgh. 1072 00:35:08.370 --> 00:35:10.229 But it's 1073 00:35:10.230 --> 00:35:12.089 really-- but we need to look at our 1074 00:35:12.090 --> 00:35:13.090 work. What 1075 00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:15.419 are the stories that we can tell 1076 00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:17.399 that are accessible to us, but 1077 00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:18.400 then figure out 1078 00:35:20.010 --> 00:35:22.409 how what we know and say 1079 00:35:22.410 --> 00:35:23.410 is important 1080 00:35:24.690 --> 00:35:26.519 elsewhere, all over the world. 1081 00:35:26.520 --> 00:35:27.600 That's where we get our readers. 1082 00:35:31.650 --> 00:35:32.308 If you just-- is this still on? 1083 00:35:32.309 --> 00:35:33.389 It seems to be coming in and out a 1084 00:35:33.390 --> 00:35:33.724 little bit. Is that okay? It's all right. 1085 00:35:33.725 --> 00:35:34.725 If 1086 00:35:36.240 --> 00:35:37.439 you just worry about a local 1087 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:39.749 audience, then you're limiting 1088 00:35:39.750 --> 00:35:40.529 your impact. 1089 00:35:40.530 --> 00:35:42.419 And we don't want to-- we don't 1090 00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:43.379 want to do that. But. Yeah. 1091 00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:44.380 Pittsburgh. 1092 00:35:44.990 --> 00:35:46.349 Pittsburgh. 1093 00:35:46.350 --> 00:35:47.350 This room here. I've 1094 00:35:50.550 --> 00:35:53.189 been in this room a lot, and 1095 00:35:53.190 --> 00:35:54.749 not for the last 12 years, but I've 1096 00:35:54.750 --> 00:35:55.829 been in this room. 1097 00:35:55.830 --> 00:35:56.830 And 1098 00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:59.249 when I introduced the journal 1099 00:35:59.250 --> 00:36:01.079 Creative Nonfiction, this was 1100 00:36:01.080 --> 00:36:02.939 a big deal. I mean, for me, it was 1101 00:36:02.940 --> 00:36:04.049 a big deal. 1102 00:36:04.050 --> 00:36:06.509 I had 134 subscribers. 1103 00:36:06.510 --> 00:36:07.510 But creative 1104 00:36:09.630 --> 00:36:11.523 nonfiction was starting-- 1105 00:36:11.524 --> 00:36:14.069 people were starting to 1106 00:36:14.070 --> 00:36:16.469 see how incredibly 1107 00:36:16.470 --> 00:36:18.359 important and valuable this genre 1108 00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:19.199 was. 1109 00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:20.460 So I did an event here, 1110 00:36:21.660 --> 00:36:24.149 and there were as many people 1111 00:36:24.150 --> 00:36:25.730 there - maybe a little more - than 1112 00:36:26.970 --> 00:36:27.869 are here. 1113 00:36:27.870 --> 00:36:29.789 And I introduced 1114 00:36:29.790 --> 00:36:31.679 issue number two, like I said, issue 1115 00:36:31.680 --> 00:36:34.109 number one had 134 people, 1116 00:36:34.110 --> 00:36:36.359 but I introduced issue number two. 1117 00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:38.279 And afterward, 1118 00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:40.469 this guy stood up and 1119 00:36:40.470 --> 00:36:42.179 came up to me and said, "This is 1120 00:36:42.180 --> 00:36:43.829 really terrific stuff. 1121 00:36:43.830 --> 00:36:45.329 I'm so glad you did this. 1122 00:36:45.330 --> 00:36:47.219 I'm so glad to learn 1123 00:36:47.220 --> 00:36:49.349 about this new creative nonfiction 1124 00:36:49.350 --> 00:36:50.350 genre." 1125 00:36:51.860 --> 00:36:53.749 His name was Fred 1126 00:36:53.750 --> 00:36:54.529 Rogers. 1127 00:36:54.530 --> 00:36:55.530 And 1128 00:36:57.020 --> 00:36:58.699 it was so exciting. 1129 00:36:58.700 --> 00:37:00.619 I'll never forget being here on 1130 00:37:00.620 --> 00:37:02.089 that particular day. 1131 00:37:02.090 --> 00:37:03.949 And Fred Rogers coming up 1132 00:37:03.950 --> 00:37:06.049 to congratulate me and shake my hand 1133 00:37:06.050 --> 00:37:09.139 and endorse creative nonfiction. 1134 00:37:09.140 --> 00:37:10.140 So, yeah. 1135 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:14.929 Pittsburgh, it's a great place, 1136 00:37:14.930 --> 00:37:16.849 by the way, to be a writer. 1137 00:37:16.850 --> 00:37:18.199 There are all kinds of-- you've got 1138 00:37:18.200 --> 00:37:19.189 a writing program here. 1139 00:37:19.190 --> 00:37:20.869 It's a very good writing program. 1140 00:37:20.870 --> 00:37:23.059 Carnegie Mellon, Carlow, 1141 00:37:23.060 --> 00:37:24.499 Chatham, Duquesne. 1142 00:37:24.500 --> 00:37:25.879 They all have writing programs. 1143 00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:26.880 It's really terrific. 1144 00:37:28.970 --> 00:37:31.939 It's unfortunate, 1145 00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:33.859 however, that we silo 1146 00:37:33.860 --> 00:37:35.299 ourselves here. 1147 00:37:35.300 --> 00:37:37.279 And very seldom 1148 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:39.199 do the writers at Carnegie 1149 00:37:39.200 --> 00:37:40.429 Mellon and the University of 1150 00:37:40.430 --> 00:37:42.619 Pittsburgh and Chatham 1151 00:37:42.620 --> 00:37:44.089 come together. 1152 00:37:44.090 --> 00:37:45.919 And that's 1153 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:48.259 not the same as in other towns 1154 00:37:48.260 --> 00:37:50.299 like the Twin Cities 1155 00:37:50.300 --> 00:37:52.759 in Minneapolis, where 1156 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.309 there's a large 1157 00:37:55.310 --> 00:37:57.110 and growing writing community. 1158 00:37:58.280 --> 00:37:59.280 Well, it's interesting. 1159 00:38:00.410 --> 00:38:01.639 Thanks so much for talking about 1160 00:38:01.640 --> 00:38:03.049 that. I mean, I'm thinking about the 1161 00:38:03.050 --> 00:38:04.729 local and global and personal and 1162 00:38:04.730 --> 00:38:05.869 universal. It really seems like 1163 00:38:05.870 --> 00:38:07.459 there is-- I'm trying to see some 1164 00:38:07.460 --> 00:38:09.169 connections between kind of working 1165 00:38:09.170 --> 00:38:10.189 small but thinking big. 1166 00:38:10.190 --> 00:38:11.119 And it seems like it's something 1167 00:38:11.120 --> 00:38:12.120 that kind of has been 1168 00:38:13.310 --> 00:38:14.359 something you've thought about- been 1169 00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:16.049 able to do throughout your work. 1170 00:38:16.050 --> 00:38:17.989 Maybe I can ask you one 1171 00:38:17.990 --> 00:38:19.369 more question, and then we can go to 1172 00:38:19.370 --> 00:38:21.709 some Q&A with our writers also. 1173 00:38:21.710 --> 00:38:22.729 And I want to ask you, I mentioned 1174 00:38:22.730 --> 00:38:24.469 the godfather label earlier. 1175 00:38:24.470 --> 00:38:26.779 I didn't know until I was 1176 00:38:26.780 --> 00:38:29.089 preparing to talk to you here 1177 00:38:29.090 --> 00:38:30.949 that that name came from an 1178 00:38:30.950 --> 00:38:32.179 article that was, in fact, very 1179 00:38:32.180 --> 00:38:33.553 critical of creative nonfiction and 1180 00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:36.854 your role in creative nonfiction. 1181 00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:40.969 It's so interesting to me 1182 00:38:40.970 --> 00:38:43.549 to see how that name has 1183 00:38:43.550 --> 00:38:45.259 taken on a life of its own and is 1184 00:38:45.260 --> 00:38:47.299 something that people use positively 1185 00:38:47.300 --> 00:38:49.219 for praise. And I wonder if you 1186 00:38:49.220 --> 00:38:50.719 reflect on that-- it's been a number 1187 00:38:50.720 --> 00:38:51.949 of years now since that article was 1188 00:38:51.950 --> 00:38:53.359 published. And if you reflect on 1189 00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:54.739 your role in creative nonfiction, it 1190 00:38:54.740 --> 00:38:56.749 seems like maybe the genre 1191 00:38:56.750 --> 00:38:58.609 itself and people's enthusiasm for 1192 00:38:58.610 --> 00:39:00.589 it has just overwhelmed whatever 1193 00:39:00.590 --> 00:39:01.969 anybody and in that particular 1194 00:39:01.970 --> 00:39:03.049 instance in the criticism or 1195 00:39:03.050 --> 00:39:04.039 something like that. And I wonder if 1196 00:39:04.040 --> 00:39:05.779 that's how you kind of think back on 1197 00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:08.569 that history of that name and 1198 00:39:08.570 --> 00:39:09.949 everything like that. 1199 00:39:09.950 --> 00:39:11.929 I'll talk a second in a bit-- in 1200 00:39:11.930 --> 00:39:13.249 a second about what happened with 1201 00:39:13.250 --> 00:39:14.359 Vanity Fair. 1202 00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:16.249 But I like 1203 00:39:16.250 --> 00:39:18.169 to say that 1204 00:39:18.170 --> 00:39:20.119 creative nonfiction is 1205 00:39:20.120 --> 00:39:22.939 a movement and not just a moment 1206 00:39:22.940 --> 00:39:24.529 in time. 1207 00:39:24.530 --> 00:39:26.209 And, yes, you're absolutely right. 1208 00:39:26.210 --> 00:39:28.279 It's the fastest growing 1209 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:29.539 genre in the publishing industry. 1210 00:39:29.540 --> 00:39:31.459 Here I 1211 00:39:31.460 --> 00:39:34.099 am. We're talking to people 1212 00:39:34.100 --> 00:39:36.229 who are involved 1213 00:39:36.230 --> 00:39:38.179 in science and in 1214 00:39:38.180 --> 00:39:40.219 chemistry departments 1215 00:39:40.220 --> 00:39:41.779 and physics departments. 1216 00:39:41.780 --> 00:39:44.149 And 25 1217 00:39:44.150 --> 00:39:46.039 years ago, again, it was 1218 00:39:46.040 --> 00:39:48.259 a big fight to get English 1219 00:39:48.260 --> 00:39:49.969 departments, not just here but 1220 00:39:49.970 --> 00:39:51.889 everywhere, to introduce and 1221 00:39:51.890 --> 00:39:53.809 teach creative nonfiction. 1222 00:39:53.810 --> 00:39:55.099 But then it happened. 1223 00:39:55.100 --> 00:39:57.349 And more and more writers, 1224 00:39:57.350 --> 00:39:59.419 as I have said to you before, became 1225 00:39:59.420 --> 00:40:01.339 involved and saw the 1226 00:40:01.340 --> 00:40:03.619 value of taking real life 1227 00:40:03.620 --> 00:40:05.479 and using literary techniques 1228 00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:08.179 to make it realer to readers. 1229 00:40:08.180 --> 00:40:10.279 And it took maybe 1230 00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:12.229 10 or 12 years for people to stop 1231 00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:14.149 laughing at the name 1232 00:40:14.150 --> 00:40:15.440 creative nonfiction. 1233 00:40:18.140 --> 00:40:19.140 People used to 1234 00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:21.000 yell at me, 1235 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:24.979 "There's the godfather of 1236 00:40:24.980 --> 00:40:26.539 creative fiction." And I thought 1237 00:40:26.540 --> 00:40:27.589 that was the funniest thing. 1238 00:40:28.640 --> 00:40:30.529 And I got T-shirts in the mail with 1239 00:40:30.530 --> 00:40:32.509 creative fiction on 1240 00:40:32.510 --> 00:40:34.549 it as jokes. 1241 00:40:34.550 --> 00:40:36.259 But then people in the academy 1242 00:40:36.260 --> 00:40:38.179 started thinking, I know 1243 00:40:38.180 --> 00:40:39.889 a lot of stuff. 1244 00:40:39.890 --> 00:40:42.079 And nobody, my friends, 1245 00:40:42.080 --> 00:40:43.340 my neighbors, the world, 1246 00:40:44.690 --> 00:40:45.709 they don't know what I know. 1247 00:40:45.710 --> 00:40:46.939 And it's really important for them 1248 00:40:46.940 --> 00:40:47.899 to find out. 1249 00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:50.209 And there's been this explosion 1250 00:40:50.210 --> 00:40:52.009 of information. 1251 00:40:52.010 --> 00:40:53.839 There's so much more that we need to 1252 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:56.509 know these days just to stay alive 1253 00:40:56.510 --> 00:40:58.849 about science, medicine, 1254 00:40:58.850 --> 00:41:00.019 the economy. 1255 00:41:00.020 --> 00:41:02.599 And creative nonfiction 1256 00:41:02.600 --> 00:41:04.369 allows us to do that. 1257 00:41:04.370 --> 00:41:06.289 So narrative science, 1258 00:41:06.290 --> 00:41:08.209 narrative medicine, narrative 1259 00:41:08.210 --> 00:41:10.159 history, there's a really 1260 00:41:10.160 --> 00:41:12.349 interesting new movement 1261 00:41:12.350 --> 00:41:14.599 called narrative psychiatry. 1262 00:41:14.600 --> 00:41:15.619 Social work. 1263 00:41:15.620 --> 00:41:16.939 I just discovered narrative social 1264 00:41:16.940 --> 00:41:18.139 work the other day. 1265 00:41:18.140 --> 00:41:20.359 Wow. Okay, so that just happened. 1266 00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:21.769 Narrative genetics. 1267 00:41:21.770 --> 00:41:23.000 It's all happening 1268 00:41:24.110 --> 00:41:26.539 because we all know 1269 00:41:26.540 --> 00:41:27.540 that-- we 1270 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:30.019 all know that we all need to know a 1271 00:41:30.020 --> 00:41:31.254 lot more and got to know 1272 00:41:32.930 --> 00:41:35.389 stuff that you need to share. 1273 00:41:35.390 --> 00:41:37.699 And that's so incredibly 1274 00:41:37.700 --> 00:41:38.479 important. 1275 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:40.549 And it's not just happening 1276 00:41:40.550 --> 00:41:41.570 in universities. 1277 00:41:43.010 --> 00:41:45.409 I can't tell you how many hundreds 1278 00:41:45.410 --> 00:41:47.659 upon hundreds of writers 1279 00:41:47.660 --> 00:41:49.506 conferences there are across the 1280 00:41:49.507 --> 00:41:50.507 United States. It's 1281 00:41:53.330 --> 00:41:55.339 not just with students. 1282 00:41:55.340 --> 00:41:56.659 Hardly with students. 1283 00:41:56.660 --> 00:41:58.789 Mid-career professionals 1284 00:41:58.790 --> 00:42:00.229 who have learned a lot in their 1285 00:42:00.230 --> 00:42:01.549 lives and want to share it with 1286 00:42:01.550 --> 00:42:03.619 others and blogs. 1287 00:42:03.620 --> 00:42:05.629 It's everywhere. 1288 00:42:05.630 --> 00:42:08.229 So it's been amazing 1289 00:42:08.230 --> 00:42:09.230 what has occurred. 1290 00:42:10.030 --> 00:42:11.030 And 1291 00:42:11.960 --> 00:42:13.040 in 1997, 1292 00:42:14.510 --> 00:42:16.459 when I was this young faculty 1293 00:42:16.460 --> 00:42:18.499 member here, this 1294 00:42:18.500 --> 00:42:19.500 motorcyclist, 1295 00:42:20.510 --> 00:42:22.759 and incredibly 1296 00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:24.709 insecure because 1297 00:42:24.710 --> 00:42:25.939 I was the only person in our 1298 00:42:25.940 --> 00:42:27.739 department, I was the only person in 1299 00:42:27.740 --> 00:42:29.849 the university professor without 1300 00:42:29.850 --> 00:42:31.609 a-- I wasn't a professor then. 1301 00:42:31.610 --> 00:42:33.469 I was an assistant professor, but I 1302 00:42:33.470 --> 00:42:36.229 had no advanced degree whatsoever. 1303 00:42:36.230 --> 00:42:38.299 I didn't wear Birkenstocks. 1304 00:42:38.300 --> 00:42:39.649 I didn't have a ponytail. 1305 00:42:39.650 --> 00:42:41.569 So I was different than 1306 00:42:41.570 --> 00:42:42.679 all my colleagues. 1307 00:42:42.680 --> 00:42:44.105 And I 1308 00:42:45.560 --> 00:42:47.719 felt insecure. 1309 00:42:47.720 --> 00:42:50.029 And I got this phone call one day 1310 00:42:50.030 --> 00:42:52.189 from a student 1311 00:42:52.190 --> 00:42:55.039 of mine who 1312 00:42:55.040 --> 00:42:57.109 also knew me because she 1313 00:42:57.110 --> 00:42:58.110 babysat for 1314 00:43:01.040 --> 00:43:02.899 my kid, who was only two years old 1315 00:43:02.900 --> 00:43:03.709 then. 1316 00:43:03.710 --> 00:43:05.749 And she was in a checkout 1317 00:43:05.750 --> 00:43:07.789 line of the supermarket. 1318 00:43:07.790 --> 00:43:08.969 And it was a long line. 1319 00:43:08.970 --> 00:43:11.269 You know how f you're in this line, 1320 00:43:11.270 --> 00:43:13.279 there are these magazines all over 1321 00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:14.269 the place. 1322 00:43:14.270 --> 00:43:15.270 And 1323 00:43:16.160 --> 00:43:17.689 you pick up a magazine, and you look 1324 00:43:17.690 --> 00:43:18.799 at it, and maybe you'll buy it, 1325 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:19.639 maybe you'll not. 1326 00:43:19.640 --> 00:43:21.379 She saw this article, and it was 1327 00:43:21.380 --> 00:43:23.299 about me, and it 1328 00:43:23.300 --> 00:43:25.339 was so mean 1329 00:43:25.340 --> 00:43:27.380 and nasty and rotten 1330 00:43:28.610 --> 00:43:30.245 that she couldn't even call me up. 1331 00:43:30.246 --> 00:43:32.239 She didn't know what to do. 1332 00:43:32.240 --> 00:43:33.619 She needed to tell me. 1333 00:43:33.620 --> 00:43:34.620 So she did-- she 1334 00:43:37.610 --> 00:43:40.189 called my ex-wife, and 1335 00:43:40.190 --> 00:43:42.049 my ex-wife called me to 1336 00:43:42.050 --> 00:43:43.909 tell me. And it was this article 1337 00:43:43.910 --> 00:43:46.070 by this critic named Joseph 1338 00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:50.899 James Wolcott, who 1339 00:43:50.900 --> 00:43:52.909 wrote this four page article 1340 00:43:52.910 --> 00:43:55.729 about creative nonfiction 1341 00:43:55.730 --> 00:43:57.889 and me in Vanity 1342 00:43:57.890 --> 00:43:59.119 Fair magazine. 1343 00:43:59.120 --> 00:44:01.279 And in the end, Wolcott 1344 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:02.269 said terrible things. 1345 00:44:02.270 --> 00:44:03.919 He said creative nonfiction was 1346 00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:06.499 civic journalism for the soul. 1347 00:44:06.500 --> 00:44:08.599 He said that 1348 00:44:08.600 --> 00:44:10.429 he learned everything, and he said 1349 00:44:10.430 --> 00:44:12.289 the creative writing programs were 1350 00:44:12.290 --> 00:44:13.099 useless. 1351 00:44:13.100 --> 00:44:15.079 And you learn more writing want ads 1352 00:44:15.080 --> 00:44:17.149 for The Village Voice than 1353 00:44:17.150 --> 00:44:18.709 he ever did-- that he could ever 1354 00:44:18.710 --> 00:44:21.379 learn in a creative writing program. 1355 00:44:21.380 --> 00:44:23.329 He slammed me and lots 1356 00:44:23.330 --> 00:44:24.330 of other people, 1357 00:44:25.460 --> 00:44:28.339 and for the next two days-- and I 1358 00:44:28.340 --> 00:44:30.319 got this piece, and it was just-- 1359 00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:31.579 I was so embarrassed. 1360 00:44:31.580 --> 00:44:33.529 And for the next two or three days, 1361 00:44:33.530 --> 00:44:34.849 I'm not kidding. I didn't leave the 1362 00:44:34.850 --> 00:44:35.850 house. 1363 00:44:36.530 --> 00:44:38.479 I was so embarrassed to get creamed 1364 00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:40.969 that way in Vanity Fair, 1365 00:44:40.970 --> 00:44:43.039 which at the time had 1.1 million 1366 00:44:43.040 --> 00:44:44.450 readers, and 1367 00:44:45.770 --> 00:44:48.409 my journal had 134 readers. 1368 00:44:48.410 --> 00:44:50.329 And anyway, I 1369 00:44:50.330 --> 00:44:51.949 had a faculty meeting to go to. 1370 00:44:51.950 --> 00:44:52.950 And 1371 00:44:56.090 --> 00:44:57.769 I felt really, like I said, 1372 00:44:57.770 --> 00:44:59.659 uncomfortable. But I 1373 00:44:59.660 --> 00:45:01.459 went to the Cathedral of Learning, 1374 00:45:01.460 --> 00:45:03.289 and I don't know where the 1375 00:45:03.290 --> 00:45:04.849 English department is now, but it 1376 00:45:04.850 --> 00:45:06.989 was then on the fifth floor. 1377 00:45:06.990 --> 00:45:08.719 I got in the elevator and went up to 1378 00:45:08.720 --> 00:45:10.669 the fifth floor, and the doors 1379 00:45:10.670 --> 00:45:12.912 open, and there 1380 00:45:12.913 --> 00:45:14.869 standing before me was 1381 00:45:14.870 --> 00:45:16.789 a colleague of mine, a guy 1382 00:45:16.790 --> 00:45:18.769 named Bruce Doppler. 1383 00:45:18.770 --> 00:45:19.770 And 1384 00:45:21.950 --> 00:45:23.899 he looked at me, and 1385 00:45:23.900 --> 00:45:24.709 he just stood there. 1386 00:45:24.710 --> 00:45:26.689 He looked at me, and 1387 00:45:26.690 --> 00:45:27.799 I looked at him. 1388 00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:29.599 And we were just frozen together 1389 00:45:29.600 --> 00:45:31.249 like that. And I knew what he was 1390 00:45:31.250 --> 00:45:33.079 thinking. I knew he saw this piece. 1391 00:45:33.080 --> 00:45:34.279 I just knew it. 1392 00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:36.589 Suddenly Bruce 1393 00:45:36.590 --> 00:45:38.869 dropped to his knees, grabbed 1394 00:45:38.870 --> 00:45:40.909 my hand, and said, "I 1395 00:45:40.910 --> 00:45:41.910 kiss your hand, godfather." 1396 00:45:45.540 --> 00:45:47.489 And then I realized 1397 00:45:47.490 --> 00:45:49.409 that Wolcott calling me the 1398 00:45:49.410 --> 00:45:51.629 godfather behind creative nonfiction 1399 00:45:51.630 --> 00:45:53.669 was-- could it be the best thing 1400 00:45:53.670 --> 00:45:55.259 to ever happen to me? 1401 00:45:55.260 --> 00:45:56.260 And 1402 00:45:58.110 --> 00:45:59.999 the funny thing is, after that, 1403 00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:01.739 I went out and 1404 00:46:03.450 --> 00:46:05.159 walked the neighborhood and did what 1405 00:46:05.160 --> 00:46:07.109 I needed to do and had my coffee 1406 00:46:07.110 --> 00:46:08.339 just like before. 1407 00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:10.319 And people would stop 1408 00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:12.569 me on the street, and they'd say, 1409 00:46:12.570 --> 00:46:14.339 "Hey, congratulations. 1410 00:46:14.340 --> 00:46:16.349 Vanity Fair magazine." 1411 00:46:16.350 --> 00:46:17.585 They didn't even read it in 1412 00:46:19.200 --> 00:46:20.219 Vanity Fair. 1413 00:46:20.220 --> 00:46:22.799 And so I just decided, 1414 00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:23.800 "The hell with this. 1415 00:46:26.040 --> 00:46:27.779 He wants to call me creative-- he 1416 00:46:27.780 --> 00:46:29.219 wants to call creative nonfiction 1417 00:46:29.220 --> 00:46:31.079 civic journalism for the soul. 1418 00:46:31.080 --> 00:46:32.969 And he wants to berate me 1419 00:46:32.970 --> 00:46:34.829 by calling me the godfather. 1420 00:46:34.830 --> 00:46:36.269 I'm going to take advantage of it. 1421 00:46:36.270 --> 00:46:37.270 And 1422 00:46:39.870 --> 00:46:42.689 use it as a vehicle to 1423 00:46:42.690 --> 00:46:44.879 talk about what it is I want 1424 00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:46.739 to talk about." So 1425 00:46:46.740 --> 00:46:47.879 that was 1997. 1426 00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:48.880 And 1427 00:46:50.010 --> 00:46:52.319 just to talk about 1428 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:54.189 this wave of popularity, 1429 00:46:54.190 --> 00:46:55.190 three 1430 00:46:56.400 --> 00:46:58.859 years ago, James Wolcott 1431 00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:00.449 published a memoir, creative 1432 00:47:00.450 --> 00:47:01.450 nonfiction. 1433 00:47:01.970 --> 00:47:03.809 It's safe to say you've had the 1434 00:47:03.810 --> 00:47:04.979 last laugh on that, I think. 1435 00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:05.980 Right. 1436 00:47:06.900 --> 00:47:08.519 That was Lee Gutkind, writer, 1437 00:47:08.520 --> 00:47:10.829 professor, and literary innovator. 1438 00:47:10.830 --> 00:47:12.119 And that's it for this edition of 1439 00:47:12.120 --> 00:47:13.319 Being Human. 1440 00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:14.819 This episode was produced by Noah 1441 00:47:14.820 --> 00:47:16.649 Livingston, Humanities Media Fellow 1442 00:47:16.650 --> 00:47:18.419 at the University of Pittsburgh. 1443 00:47:18.420 --> 00:47:19.499 Stay tuned next time for a 1444 00:47:19.500 --> 00:47:21.359 conversation on institutions and the 1445 00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:22.379 Anthropocene. 1446 00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:23.549 And if you're in Pittsburgh, feel 1447 00:47:23.550 --> 00:47:25.559 free to attend the conversation live 1448 00:47:25.560 --> 00:47:27.659 on September 26th at 7 p.m. 1449 00:47:27.660 --> 00:47:28.889 in the Carnegie Museum of Art 1450 00:47:28.890 --> 00:47:29.999 Theater. 1451 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:31.000 Thanks for listening.
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