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Slow Violence and a Repertoire of Selves: An Interview with Rob Nixon

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  • Hello and welcome to the latest
  • installment of Being Human from the
  • University of Pittsburgh.
  • This series is devoted to exploring
  • the humanities, their connections to
  • other disciplines, and their value
  • in the public world.
  • I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of
  • the Humanities Center at Pitt.
  • My guest today is Rob Nixon,
  • professor of English at Princeton
  • University.
  • Professor Nixon's work revealed the
  • connections and divisions created by
  • global and transnational practices.
  • He's most well-known for doing this
  • in his 2011 book, Slow Violence
  • and the Environmentalism of the
  • Poor, a book that won multiple
  • awards and has provided a new
  • vocabulary for talking about
  • environmental movements.
  • In this book, Nixon uses the concept
  • of slow violence to link
  • environmental threats like oil
  • spills, climate change, and
  • radiation at nuclear test sites.
  • These threats, Nixon argues, do
  • their damage over a longer timespan
  • and thus lend themselves less
  • readily to high-profile
  • environmental efforts.
  • Nixon explores these threats through
  • the work of marginal writers and
  • activists like Kim Stanley Robinson,
  • Wangari Maathai, Jamaica Kincaid,
  • and others.
  • Nixon's sensitive readings of these
  • figures shows the disproportionate
  • effect that environmental
  • degradation has on the Global South
  • and also reveals strategies for
  • opposition.
  • Much of Nixon's work is
  • characterized by this ability to
  • both reveal dangers and inspire
  • resistance.
  • Like one of his mentors, Edward
  • Said, Nixon also writes and
  • publishes in ways that bring
  • academic and public work together.
  • His book, Dream Birds, for example,
  • is both a memoir and a history of
  • the ostrich as a commodity in
  • 20th-century Western culture.
  • Nixon's fascinating account of this
  • history provides an unlikely example
  • of capitalism's unending churn.
  • But it also explores the subtle
  • interactions between humans and
  • nature and suggest that the two
  • are inseparable.
  • Nixon has recently been working on a
  • series of essays on the
  • Anthropocene, and I began by asking
  • him how his work contributes to this
  • ongoing dialogue and how it relates
  • to the important work he's done to
  • this point.
  • The dominant idea of the
  • Anthropocene is this idea that maybe
  • we've reached a tipping point where
  • Homo sapiens has become a geological
  • age. And as the biologist
  • Anthony Barnosky put it, we
  • are the asteroid.
  • This idea that humanity has collided
  • with earth's biology of
  • physical systems, and
  • we're changing the nitrogen cycle,
  • the water cycle, the carbon
  • cycle. Through
  • habitat loss,
  • extinction rates have soared.
  • And so, there are all these
  • different ways in which
  • life on earth has been altered.
  • And so, this has
  • become a kind of gathering place
  • for
  • public figures and also
  • intellectuals from all different
  • disciplines.
  • And I think that's the positive side
  • of it. The people have strong
  • opinions.
  • They have a
  • stake in it, and it's
  • become a very fertile place
  • of debate.
  • My own particular take on it is
  • to do with my background
  • in postcolonial studies,
  • which is the relationship between
  • Homo sapiens as a species actor
  • and the vast disparities among
  • different actors in terms
  • of our impacts on
  • the earth's past, present, and
  • future, and the degree
  • to which--
  • there's a danger sometimes that we
  • lump humanity together
  • as a single geological agent,
  • that we lose sight of
  • histories of colonialism, histories
  • of injustice, the degree
  • to which, say,
  • one person might
  • have a knee-deep
  • ecological footprint, another
  • person might have an indecipherable
  • ecological footprint because
  • they have so little impact in terms
  • of their resource use.
  • And so, trying to tease apart
  • the idea of the human epoch.
  • So that's one key area.
  • Related to that is the
  • degree to which, in some circles,
  • and I don't want to paint the whole
  • Anthropocene
  • like this, but in some circles,
  • I have some concern
  • that the Anthropocene could
  • become a stalking horse
  • or a Trojan horse really for
  • reinserting
  • the selective enlightenment
  • into the thinking about human.
  • So it started off as the age of man.
  • It was a problematic
  • idea.
  • And
  • there are, I think, in some
  • quarters, attempts
  • to see this as a species
  • problem without first
  • discriminating among
  • different histories of the species.
  • Who has been
  • deemed fully human, who has
  • been deemed less than human,
  • and how does that play out in our
  • thinking? And so one of the things
  • that I've been writing a bit about
  • is the we of the Anthropocene.
  • How do we disaggregate that
  • and acknowledge that there's
  • a concerted need for
  • large-scale solutions,
  • but in plutocratic
  • times, there are dangers
  • that certain
  • powerful actors can abrogate
  • to themselves, the
  • right to govern the
  • earth or to steer
  • the earth in
  • a certain path? So my
  • interest comes from a commitment
  • to participatory democracy
  • to the struggle to
  • have input from
  • all humans and all
  • non-humans who are affected
  • by the choices that we
  • make going forward.
  • Yeah, well, one of the things in
  • some recent writing that you've done
  • on the Anthropocene, you bring
  • up the idea of engaged humility.
  • And that to me seemed
  • like a kind of stance for you that
  • you were suggesting could
  • move forward with the position
  • that you were just trying to
  • outline, and
  • the idea that it's not kind of-- it
  • avoids a sense of mastery,
  • but it doesn't fall into quietism.
  • Exactly. I think that's
  • exactly right. I think engaged
  • humility is
  • a very valuable posture
  • because
  • the Anthropocene, and there's no
  • question about it, there are these
  • runaway impacts and these
  • unforeseen consequences
  • of some of humanity's greatest
  • achievements.
  • And the fallout from those
  • is felt unevenly by
  • different populations.
  • So how can we
  • both recognize that
  • technological solutions alone,
  • especially highly centralized
  • technological solutions alone,
  • won't address the
  • distributive challenges
  • of the Anthropocene? They
  • may
  • be central to engineering the
  • future, but how do we make sure
  • that the future's
  • available to us imaginatively
  • and ultimately and materially
  • or accommodating
  • of as wide a variety of
  • human needs as possible?
  • And so there's a sense,
  • I think, as you're intimating, that
  • for some people, humility is
  • a negative or defeatist posture.
  • But if
  • an ideology
  • of dominion and earth mastery
  • has created some of
  • the most dramatic crises
  • of our time,
  • I would be wary of doubling down
  • on dominion,
  • especially when that dominion, as I
  • say, is highly
  • centralized.
  • And there's been such a pushback
  • against participatory democracy.
  • Yeah.
  • Well, you also write a lot about the
  • idea of representation
  • in the Anthropocene and how it is
  • that the arts, in particular,
  • can play a role in representing
  • the era
  • that we're currently in.
  • You reference in a recent piece of
  • writing, Amitav Ghosh comments about
  • the realist novel and the
  • limitations of that form.
  • You do it, I think, not to kind of
  • like-- not to necessarily bash
  • the realist novel or realism in
  • general but to raise
  • the idea of form and
  • the kind of current moment that
  • we're in. And I wonder if you can
  • say a little bit about that and your
  • thoughts on kind of form and the
  • novel. And you write about arts
  • outside of literature, too.
  • So just any thoughts you have about
  • that issue?
  • Well, I mean, one of the things that
  • Amitav Ghosh writes about in The
  • Great Arrangement is
  • the degree to which
  • enlightenment thinking
  • was word centered.
  • And he doesn't go into it in great
  • detail, but he leads towards the end
  • that the way
  • that our cultures of communication
  • have shifted so radically
  • recently and have become
  • more image centered.
  • And there's a different meld of
  • word and image.
  • And I certainly see the
  • power of that
  • and the creativity that
  • has been magnetized by
  • the new platforms that meld
  • with an image in relation
  • to attempts to communicate
  • these vast scales of time and place
  • and to create
  • figurative ways of
  • entering
  • sensorially into what can seem
  • kind of daunting epoch-size
  • events.
  • Right.
  • I'm also interested in asking you a
  • question about form and
  • your own work as a critic
  • and a writer.
  • The big question is kind of
  • what thoughts you have or efforts
  • you've made to work with form in
  • your own work.
  • But there's a particular work of
  • yours that's a few years old called
  • How to Read a Bridge, which
  • to me, I
  • was reading through all your other
  • works and thinking of them as
  • essays, and this one seems almost
  • like prose poetry or something.
  • Like you're doing something a little
  • bit different.
  • I wonder if you can talk about that
  • or other efforts you've made.
  • Right. So, I have a background
  • in journalism, and as a nonfiction
  • writer, I wrote a memoir, and I've
  • written a number of autobiographical
  • essays, and I feel
  • quite strongly that
  • there's a place for
  • autobiographical thinking that also
  • has a conceptual component.
  • And I did my dissertation
  • with Edward Said, and the thing
  • that I came away
  • from that period with most
  • strongly was
  • his commitment to
  • the sort of cunning of accessibility
  • that it's actually often harder
  • to
  • communicate an idea lucidly
  • than it is to
  • announce it in an opaque
  • and a recognizably
  • academic way.
  • So in a number of essays, including
  • How to Read a Bridge, I've tried to
  • start from an autobiographical
  • place. In
  • this essay, going back
  • to the town I was brought up in
  • South Africa and
  • driving through what were the former
  • Bantustans, the reservations
  • sort of more or less equivalent to
  • the Native
  • reservations in the US,
  • and coming across this bridge
  • which divided
  • white South Africa from the
  • Bantustans, these segregated
  • homelands, so-called homelands
  • for the Zulus, closest different
  • groups.
  • And when I
  • went down below the bridge, I saw
  • that the bridge was being prized
  • apart by these strangler
  • figs. Their root systems
  • were in the divides and in these
  • concrete blocks and was actually
  • being pulled apart.
  • And there were these weaver birds,
  • these bright yellow birds that make
  • pendulous
  • nests that had built
  • in it. It was a colony of the birds.
  • So there was this whole what
  • scientist sometimes call novel
  • ecosystem that
  • had taken advantage of
  • infrastructural neglect.
  • And so what I was trying to do in
  • that essay was to tease
  • out
  • my personal thoughts and personal
  • memories, the political history
  • of that place, and also
  • some of the
  • debates around
  • animal agency
  • and botanical
  • agency that are current
  • in academe.
  • And so we hear
  • talk of, say, ecosystem engineers.
  • And it seems to me that
  • the strangler figs,
  • in a way, are ecosystem engineers.
  • Defensible architecture, too, right?
  • Right.
  • They're building a kind of-- creating
  • some defensible architecture for themselves. Yeah.
  • Exactly. Creating defensible
  • architecture. And they are
  • exploiting
  • an infrastructure of neglect
  • that had an apartheid history.
  • It was rooted, as it were, in
  • race.
  • So
  • it was a short essay and a kind of
  • an attempt to evoke these different
  • layers of feeling.
  • Yeah. You end that essay with
  • talking about the fact that you
  • wrote an email suggesting
  • that the government should do
  • something and get these figs off of
  • there. I imagine you're still
  • waiting that reply.
  • Yeah, I'm still waiting for the reply.
  • Well, I want to ask a question
  • about-- this is kind of connected,
  • I think, some of the
  • comments you've already made about
  • kind of like form and
  • things like that. This
  • is a question about language.
  • And it comes from some of the
  • reviews from your most recent
  • publication, which is Slow Violence
  • and the Environmentalism of the
  • Poor.
  • And some of the reviewers pointed
  • out something which I have noticed
  • across your work, which is how
  • skilled you are at creating new and
  • evocative phrases in
  • the work to
  • create new opportunities or new ways
  • of seeing relations to our moment.
  • I wonder if that's something that
  • you think-- I mean, Slow Violence
  • really, in itself, is kind of one of
  • them, right? That's the lead one.
  • But there are a number of others,
  • too.
  • I wonder how you think about that in
  • your work and if that's something
  • you consciously aim to do or if
  • it's something that kind of just
  • naturally comes out of the
  • larger goals that you've got in your
  • criticism.
  • Yeah, it's
  • not a conscious thing.
  • I mean, I think there are useful
  • neologisms and neologisms
  • that require so much explaining
  • that they don't function
  • outside of a very localized
  • context.
  • So it's hard to know what will gain
  • purchase or traction and what won't.
  • But I do think, in general,
  • if you can use ordinary words
  • to try to shift consciousness,
  • it's much better than creating
  • sort of bulky Latinate
  • neologisms that need a lot of unpacking.
  • And if we think of terms, I mean,
  • there are terms that are
  • super self-explanatory.
  • Like I think environmental justice
  • is quite easy to convey
  • to a layperson,
  • whereas there are terms I wish could
  • be uninvented, like neoliberalism.
  • It's bandied around a lot, and
  • it's trying to communicate certain
  • important things, but it's certainly
  • not self-explanatory.
  • Postcolonialism to a certain extent
  • as well.
  • So I
  • love lucidity combined
  • with a paradigmatic
  • shift. If you can get that
  • combination,
  • I think that's the kind of ideal
  • space.
  • Yeah.
  • Well, I think it seems to me like
  • slow violence is a
  • phrase that has been taken up fairly
  • successfully.
  • And it's possible,
  • for example, to read articles.
  • I recently read an article in The
  • Guardian by Robert McFarlane about
  • the-- he was writing about the
  • Anthropocene, and he uses the
  • phrase slow violence without quoting
  • the work or anything. It seems to
  • just kind of like have seeped into
  • discourse about this.
  • And I wonder if
  • you have seen-- so it's
  • been a number of years since your
  • book came out and whether
  • the phrase slow violence or even the
  • idea of slowness itself, does it
  • seem to you like it is gaining
  • traction and becoming something that
  • is a usable tool
  • for people imagining that moment?
  • Yes, definitely.
  • And I've
  • been surprised by that.
  • There was a student who wrote
  • to me from Stanford, and his father
  • had been a football player, and he
  • was a football player.
  • And he was doing his thesis
  • on slow violence and
  • head injuries.
  • And the fact that
  • there wasn't a dramatic call
  • to the damage, but the damage was
  • cumulative attrition and
  • not really counted as violence, or
  • it wasn't counted as brutal.
  • And so he had this familial history
  • of brain damage that he was
  • trying to speak to.
  • And he just said he found that
  • helpful.
  • And I was especially touched by a
  • woman who wrote to me from Canada
  • recently who said
  • she'd been
  • reading this book for a cause, and
  • she'd been in an abusive
  • relationship and
  • had been afraid to leave a
  • relationship because she had
  • two kids.
  • And then, in the course of
  • reading this book, she had
  • realized that she had a vocabulary
  • for talking about domestic
  • abuse that she couldn't quite
  • pinpoint in terms
  • of broken bones or
  • overt brutalization, but
  • that the incremental brutalization
  • was such.
  • So, I mean, the fact she
  • left the relationship and finds
  • herself in a better space is due
  • almost entirely to her courage.
  • But I felt
  • gratified that the language
  • resonated in an unexpected
  • way.
  • Yeah.
  • Well, also thinking about
  • this idea of
  • slowness is
  • one of the spaces in your work
  • where I see kind of opportunities
  • for the tools of the humanities to
  • be an important-- make an important
  • contribution to our discussions.
  • Having
  • to do with attention to language,
  • having to do with awareness of
  • history, the
  • kind of patient elaboration, I
  • suppose, of issues and problems and
  • things like that. I wonder, and this
  • could be a naive question, but if
  • there is a
  • greater sense of awareness about
  • the relevance
  • of, let's say slow violence.
  • Is there greater opportunities
  • for the humanities also
  • attendant to that to kind of be a
  • part of these discussions?
  • Yeah, I think very much so.
  • And by humanities,
  • I include the arts.
  • And so, I was
  • recently teaching
  • Jeff Orlowski's movie Chasing
  • Ice with
  • photographic attempts to use
  • very sophisticated technologies
  • to dramatize
  • something like glacial retreat.
  • So some of what's available now
  • in technological terms was simply
  • not possible before in terms
  • of
  • slow-motion footage, and
  • just the engineering
  • side of it can help the
  • narrative side of it.
  • And I see a lot of those kind
  • of collaborations,
  • even if you look at, say,
  • Planet Earth 1 versus Planet Earth
  • 2. In Planet Earth 2,
  • it's a drone-driven
  • film, and you think, "Wow,
  • okay." And there's a difference
  • in the pacing. There's a difference
  • in the idea of distance.
  • And so I
  • think ideas
  • of narrative per
  • se are shifting in relation to time
  • and in relation to
  • technology.
  • And so there is this paradox
  • with, say, the Anthropocene
  • that we are suddenly asked to think
  • of ourselves as geological
  • actors on this vast
  • stage at the same time
  • as we are operating
  • in minuscule
  • units of time, and our
  • attentiveness is kind of
  • fractured.
  • And we have this ability to create
  • like aggregate power
  • in a very short space of time,
  • but that part can dissipate very
  • rapidly.
  • And so, how do we deal
  • with the narrative
  • demands of something like
  • glacial retreat, climate change,
  • the Anthropocene
  • at a time where we have all of these
  • fantastic
  • media platforms? But we're
  • competing for
  • fragments of time.
  • Yeah.
  • And I mean, you mentioned Edward
  • Said earlier, and
  • this is reminding me of kind of like
  • the comment you made about kind of
  • like being
  • canny about the ways that messages
  • can get out. Right? And then, not
  • necessarily giving up on complexity,
  • but communicating with the big
  • audience.
  • I want to ask you a question that
  • is kind of connected, I think, to
  • your mention of Said earlier.
  • And it's about public intellectuals,
  • which is a category that comes
  • up in your work.
  • One of the things I recognized
  • reading
  • you writing about public
  • intellectuals and slow violence
  • and the environmentalism of the poor
  • was-- I kind of got a sense when
  • you were talking about a lot of the
  • writers that you were reading
  • in that book. I'm thinking of
  • Wangari Maathai.
  • I'm thinking of June Jordan and
  • Jamaica Kincaid and all the other
  • authors that you read in that book.
  • You mentioned, early on, that many
  • of them had been the first in their
  • family to go to college and
  • that there's a kind of-- not only
  • are they in
  • their work dealing with issues of
  • dislocation and things but that
  • biographically, they're also dealing
  • with that.
  • That really, for me, in a way, kind
  • of made-- and you go on to talk
  • about, then, that they're performing
  • translational work.
  • And
  • that, to me, it
  • sort of crystallized, I think, the
  • idea of the public intellectual as
  • engaged in this kind of not just
  • translation but a kind of a struggle
  • and kind of inventing community and
  • being forced to invent that sense of
  • community as part of
  • what they're doing all the time.
  • And
  • I wonder if you can talk a little
  • bit about that and that kind of
  • picture of the public intellectual
  • versus something like-- it's so
  • easy to find people talking
  • about public intellectuals in the
  • sense that they would be leaders of
  • certain kinds. And I think that's a
  • very different picture of the role
  • of a public intellectual.
  • I wonder if you can say a little bit
  • about that.
  • Yeah. I mean, Wangari Maathai
  • is a great example of
  • somebody. She was the first
  • in her family to go to college and
  • the first woman in East Africa to
  • get a Ph.D.
  • in the life sciences.
  • She comes to America, does a degree,
  • she's exposed to the civil rights
  • struggle, goes back, and connects
  • and creates this with
  • rural women like herself.
  • But she's a go-between.
  • And ultimately, the Green Belt
  • movement planted something like
  • 30 million trees.
  • I mean, enormous success.
  • But she was able to perform
  • different selves for different
  • audiences.
  • And when you emigrate or when you
  • migrate across classes or
  • identities, you
  • have a repertoire of selves.
  • And it's not a question of integrity
  • or not having integrity.
  • It's a question of actually
  • performing certain features of
  • yourself that allow you to
  • connect with that audience.
  • And so if you survived
  • that upheaval in the chaos of
  • something like immigration or being
  • the first generation to go
  • to college, you can actually draw
  • on those as resources.
  • And both myself and my partner, Ann
  • McClintock, were
  • first generation college students.
  • So we were constantly
  • trying to explain to our family what
  • it was we did.
  • And so you
  • don't take for granted the idea
  • that, A, you have a college
  • education and, B,
  • that what you're doing
  • is communicable.
  • And I think there's some-- maybe for
  • people who are the first generation
  • college, there's some familial
  • pressure to be pretty simple and
  • clear in your communication
  • about what the hell it is you're
  • doing, especially in the humanities,
  • perhaps. Yeah.
  • Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you
  • about that. I mean, the
  • kind of the description you're
  • making here of kind of the
  • translational work reminds me so
  • much of Edward Said's work.
  • And it also reminds me of-- I mean,
  • I really enjoyed reading-- you
  • mentioned your memoir earlier, and
  • that's Dream Bird.
  • And I really enjoyed that a lot.
  • And that's a lot of, I think, what
  • you talk about there.
  • I mean, it's a memoir, but it's also
  • a totally fascinating book about
  • ostriches, among other things.
  • Among other things.
  • But there's a lot of the histories
  • of ostriches there.
  • Yeah. Can you talk a little bit
  • about or expand on
  • - you already mentioned a bit - a
  • little bit on some of
  • the translational work that you talk
  • about there and how that's been a
  • part of your work?
  • Well, I was very fortunate when I
  • arrived in the US.
  • I left South Africa as a
  • conscientious objector.
  • This is the end of the apartheid
  • days.
  • So there was a two-year call up for
  • white kids after high school.
  • And I put that off until after
  • university. Then, I had
  • to leave.
  • And so I arrived
  • in the middle of the anti-apartheid
  • protest in the US, the boycott
  • years.
  • And I happened to
  • write a piece for The Village Voice,
  • and The Village Voice was sort of
  • a very dynamic publication.
  • And so I started writing for
  • particularly for The Village Voice
  • and The Nation as a graduate
  • student.
  • And that was enormously beneficial
  • because I felt it was a place
  • to put my political passions.
  • But it also allowed me to hone a
  • public voice in
  • a context that had a fairly high
  • intellectual caliber of
  • thinking.
  • And that combination really
  • helped me a lot.
  • And one
  • of the things that I struggle
  • with this generation of students
  • is I was able to--
  • when I was a graduate student, I
  • would write a 1500-word
  • piece for The Voice.
  • And I would get $1,000
  • or something.
  • And that was probably $2,000
  • today.
  • And it helped pay the rent and
  • helped me move
  • forward in my career, helped
  • me reduce student debt and
  • all of those things.
  • And the challenge today,
  • when I see students just as talented
  • as I was as writers now, is
  • how do you monetize that.
  • There's so much content
  • out there, and so much of it is
  • brilliant, but
  • it's not priced the way it was
  • when I was starting out.
  • And I feel for
  • the students that
  • there's kind of a volunteer
  • creativity, whereas I had the
  • affirmation that
  • it was political, it was creative,
  • and it was financially
  • rewarding. And that was a real
  • trifecta.
  • Yeah. Well, I want to ask you one
  • other question, if I could, from
  • Dream Birds.
  • And this is a--
  • there's - I guess I would say - a
  • story that
  • is in that book that
  • you talk in the beginning.
  • It's about your grandmother and the
  • Mavis.
  • The Mavis is a bird.
  • I'll let you tell the story.
  • But it's something that
  • seems-- it seemed to me in that
  • book, we talked a little bit about
  • images earlier and how an image is
  • kind of like being able to do
  • certain things.
  • And these are visual images.
  • But that to me was kind of an image
  • in that book that seemed to
  • have so many-- seemed to be able to
  • kind of crystallize or pull together
  • so many of the different-- that
  • story, anyway.
  • It was one that pulled together so
  • many of those things in that book.
  • I wonder if you can just say a
  • little bit about that story and
  • talk about that.
  • As it happened, I did my early work
  • on V.S. Naipaul, and I remember an
  • essay he wrote called Jasmine
  • where he talked about
  • having read about Jasmine in the
  • book and not realizing that the
  • flower that he smelled, this
  • overwhelming,
  • deep, powerful smell
  • that he smelled every day
  • on the island was connected to that
  • word. And there was a book word,
  • and there was a smell, and
  • that he didn't expect to have
  • the objects in his everyday world,
  • coming from the Caribbean, reflected
  • in literature, which always seemed
  • to come from elsewhere.
  • And so I grew up in an unusual
  • family, which there were nine
  • of us and four generations under one
  • roof.
  • And my great grandfather and
  • grandmother had grown up in Scotland
  • before moving to South Africa.
  • And so my grandmother would often
  • reminisce about Scotland.
  • And she said, before she died,
  • one of the things she really wanted
  • was to hear the Mavis sing.
  • She used to hear the Mavis sing on
  • the way to school, and nobody could
  • find out what this Mavis thing was.
  • She didn't know. That was the only
  • word she knew.
  • And other friends you knew who knew
  • a lot about birds.
  • I tried looking it up and so forth.
  • And then I was doing
  • some research in the British Museum
  • in London at the time, and we were
  • living in North London.
  • And I happened
  • to come across this word, Mavis,
  • and it was the song
  • thrush.
  • And I walked home that
  • evening from the tube across
  • the lawns, and there these song
  • thrushes were singing.
  • And it was this incredible sense of
  • just completing the loop
  • of a story.
  • There she was, 80
  • years before, as a schoolgirl
  • walking to school in Scotland,
  • listening to this noise, to the
  • sound. And here
  • I was. She
  • had died in the meantime. Having
  • this avenue, this very, very
  • personal avenue into this
  • bird song, once the
  • meaning of the word Mavis had
  • been released.
  • Yeah.
  • And it seemed to me to
  • say a lot about things that you're
  • concerned with in that book, in your
  • memoir, but also throughout your
  • work about
  • the really complicated relationships
  • that humans have with the
  • natural world around them and
  • that it's not necessarily just one
  • of appreciation, that it's one
  • sometimes where nature is something
  • that humans can kind of project
  • dreams on. And dreams,
  • desires, things like that.
  • And that there's so much more to
  • it than the times it gets written
  • about.
  • Absolutely.
  • And I think that
  • connects with the issue of
  • translating science into the public
  • realm as well.
  • That you can have ecosystem
  • science that looks at
  • whether it's a functioning
  • ecosystem or not or
  • a compromised ecosystem.
  • And so you have scientists
  • talk about, say, a functional
  • analogue in an ecosystem,
  • which would be, say, an apex
  • predator. So when an apex predator
  • is removed, but you bring in another
  • apex predator that forms
  • a similar function.
  • But if we're talking about, say, an
  • apex predator like a wolf,
  • you put a wolf in a story, and
  • it's got an incredible heritage,
  • positive and negative.
  • Like everybody has
  • feelings about wolves, even people
  • who haven't seen them.
  • So if we talk about the wolf as a
  • functional analogue, we're talking
  • one kind of a register.
  • If we're talking about it as a wolf,
  • whether it's replaced or not,
  • it has an enormous
  • cultural energy.
  • And so I think that's
  • part of where the environmental
  • humanities and arts come in is how
  • do we understand
  • the science, learn the science,
  • and then think about
  • the implications of communicating
  • the science in this kind of image
  • or that kind of story or that kind
  • of figure of speech.
  • Yeah. And not
  • only that, but your work, it seems
  • like one of the things that
  • is so important to you is to try
  • to harness that, understand it, and
  • kind of like move us towards
  • a--
  • move us towards a world
  • that is more characterized by
  • participatory democracy, perhaps,
  • than the one that we're currently in.
  • Absolutely. And I think one of the
  • very encouraging things about
  • environmental studies
  • today, in particularly the
  • humanities, is
  • there was a perception that
  • environmentalism at one point
  • was not kind of real politics.
  • And it was very much--
  • it emanated from a kind
  • of American studies and
  • was wilderness-focused.
  • There was a component of
  • that was sort of anti-human
  • environmentalism. It was going
  • back to the seventies.
  • And that's not the complete story by
  • any means, but there was a strong
  • strain of that and an
  • idea that this message
  • needed to be communicated
  • to poorer people and people
  • elsewhere in the world.
  • And I think what has shifted now,
  • and this is partly due to
  • environmental justice coming front
  • and center,
  • is that we understand multiple
  • genealogies of environmentalism.
  • And so, if we
  • think of the tree huggers in
  • the Chipko Forest in India
  • in the 1970s, these were
  • villages who had depended on the
  • forest for firewood,
  • for the protection of their water,
  • for food.
  • And the government then said, "We've
  • sold this off to
  • a sports company." I think it was a
  • cricket bat company or something.
  • And they found these people arriving
  • claiming that they owned the forest,
  • whereas they felt that spiritual
  • ownership of it.
  • They formed these chains
  • around the trees. And that's our
  • earliest record of tree-hugging.
  • So we might be
  • associated with Humboldt County,
  • but there are there are many, many
  • starting places for these.
  • And every community
  • has its own
  • place of purchase in
  • the environmental world.
  • And if we listen to those and
  • we respect those, I think we
  • have a much better chance
  • of actually
  • preserving what we value
  • and adapting to what we
  • cannot change.
  • Yeah. Well, Rob Nixon, thanks so
  • much for joining us.
  • Thank you, Dan.
  • That's it for this edition of Being
  • Human.
  • This episode was produced by
  • Christian Snyder, Humanities Media
  • Fellow at the University of
  • Pittsburgh.
  • Stay tuned next time when my guest
  • will be Robin Bernstein, Professor
  • of African and African American
  • Studies at Harvard University.
  • Thanks for listening.