Ask an Archivist
Check out a new beta version of this site
Home
Collections
Topics
Exhibits
Partners
About
Tutorials
Advanced Search
Primary tabs
Transcript
Slow Violence and a Repertoire of Selves: An Interview with Rob Nixon
Transcript
Transcript
Esperanto
Quenya
Sindarin
Klingon
Script
Phonetic
Minimal
Reversed
SRT
InqScribe
Prev
Same
Next
Transcript search
No results found for this search
Show All
Only Results
0 of 0
0:04
Hello and welcome to the latest
0:06
installment of Being Human from the
0:07
University of Pittsburgh.
0:09
This series is devoted to exploring
0:10
the humanities, their connections to
0:12
other disciplines, and their value
0:13
in the public world.
0:15
I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of
0:16
the Humanities Center at Pitt.
0:18
My guest today is Rob Nixon,
0:19
professor of English at Princeton
0:21
University.
0:22
Professor Nixon's work revealed the
0:24
connections and divisions created by
0:26
global and transnational practices.
0:28
He's most well-known for doing this
0:30
in his 2011 book, Slow Violence
0:32
and the Environmentalism of the
0:34
Poor, a book that won multiple
0:35
awards and has provided a new
0:37
vocabulary for talking about
0:39
environmental movements.
0:41
In this book, Nixon uses the concept
0:43
of slow violence to link
0:44
environmental threats like oil
0:45
spills, climate change, and
0:47
radiation at nuclear test sites.
0:50
These threats, Nixon argues, do
0:51
their damage over a longer timespan
0:54
and thus lend themselves less
0:55
readily to high-profile
0:56
environmental efforts.
0:59
Nixon explores these threats through
1:01
the work of marginal writers and
1:02
activists like Kim Stanley Robinson,
1:04
Wangari Maathai, Jamaica Kincaid,
1:06
and others.
1:07
Nixon's sensitive readings of these
1:09
figures shows the disproportionate
1:11
effect that environmental
1:12
degradation has on the Global South
1:14
and also reveals strategies for
1:16
opposition.
1:17
Much of Nixon's work is
1:19
characterized by this ability to
1:20
both reveal dangers and inspire
1:22
resistance.
1:23
Like one of his mentors, Edward
1:25
Said, Nixon also writes and
1:26
publishes in ways that bring
1:27
academic and public work together.
1:30
His book, Dream Birds, for example,
1:31
is both a memoir and a history of
1:33
the ostrich as a commodity in
1:35
20th-century Western culture.
1:37
Nixon's fascinating account of this
1:39
history provides an unlikely example
1:40
of capitalism's unending churn.
1:43
But it also explores the subtle
1:44
interactions between humans and
1:45
nature and suggest that the two
1:47
are inseparable.
1:49
Nixon has recently been working on a
1:50
series of essays on the
1:51
Anthropocene, and I began by asking
1:53
him how his work contributes to this
1:55
ongoing dialogue and how it relates
1:57
to the important work he's done to
1:58
this point.
2:04
The dominant idea of the
2:05
Anthropocene is this idea that maybe
2:07
we've reached a tipping point where
2:10
Homo sapiens has become a geological
2:12
age. And as the biologist
2:14
Anthony Barnosky put it, we
2:17
are the asteroid.
2:18
This idea that humanity has collided
2:21
with earth's biology of
2:23
physical systems, and
2:25
we're changing the nitrogen cycle,
2:27
the water cycle, the carbon
2:28
cycle. Through
2:32
habitat loss,
2:34
extinction rates have soared.
2:36
And so, there are all these
2:38
different ways in which
2:40
life on earth has been altered.
2:42
And so, this has
2:43
become a kind of gathering place
2:45
for
2:47
public figures and also
2:49
intellectuals from all different
2:50
disciplines.
2:51
And I think that's the positive side
2:52
of it. The people have strong
2:54
opinions.
2:54
They have a
2:57
stake in it, and it's
2:59
become a very fertile place
3:02
of debate.
3:03
My own particular take on it is
3:05
to do with my background
3:07
in postcolonial studies,
3:09
which is the relationship between
3:12
Homo sapiens as a species actor
3:15
and the vast disparities among
3:17
different actors in terms
3:19
of our impacts on
3:21
the earth's past, present, and
3:23
future, and the degree
3:25
to which--
3:27
there's a danger sometimes that we
3:29
lump humanity together
3:31
as a single geological agent,
3:33
that we lose sight of
3:35
histories of colonialism, histories
3:37
of injustice, the degree
3:39
to which, say,
3:41
one person might
3:43
have a knee-deep
3:45
ecological footprint, another
3:47
person might have an indecipherable
3:50
ecological footprint because
3:52
they have so little impact in terms
3:54
of their resource use.
3:56
And so, trying to tease apart
3:58
the idea of the human epoch.
4:01
So that's one key area.
4:04
Related to that is the
4:06
degree to which, in some circles,
4:08
and I don't want to paint the whole
4:09
Anthropocene
4:11
like this, but in some circles,
4:14
I have some concern
4:16
that the Anthropocene could
4:18
become a stalking horse
4:21
or a Trojan horse really for
4:24
reinserting
4:26
the selective enlightenment
4:28
into the thinking about human.
4:29
So it started off as the age of man.
4:31
It was a problematic
4:33
idea.
4:35
And
4:37
there are, I think, in some
4:38
quarters, attempts
4:42
to see this as a species
4:44
problem without first
4:46
discriminating among
4:48
different histories of the species.
4:50
Who has been
4:52
deemed fully human, who has
4:54
been deemed less than human,
4:57
and how does that play out in our
4:58
thinking? And so one of the things
5:00
that I've been writing a bit about
5:01
is the we of the Anthropocene.
5:03
How do we disaggregate that
5:06
and acknowledge that there's
5:08
a concerted need for
5:10
large-scale solutions,
5:12
but in plutocratic
5:14
times, there are dangers
5:16
that certain
5:19
powerful actors can abrogate
5:22
to themselves, the
5:23
right to govern the
5:25
earth or to steer
5:28
the earth in
5:30
a certain path? So my
5:32
interest comes from a commitment
5:34
to participatory democracy
5:36
to the struggle to
5:38
have input from
5:40
all humans and all
5:42
non-humans who are affected
5:45
by the choices that we
5:46
make going forward.
5:49
Yeah, well, one of the things in
5:51
some recent writing that you've done
5:52
on the Anthropocene, you bring
5:54
up the idea of engaged humility.
5:56
And that to me seemed
5:58
like a kind of stance for you that
6:01
you were suggesting could
6:03
move forward with the position
6:06
that you were just trying to
6:06
outline, and
6:08
the idea that it's not kind of-- it
6:10
avoids a sense of mastery,
6:11
but it doesn't fall into quietism.
6:14
Exactly. I think that's
6:16
exactly right. I think engaged
6:17
humility is
6:19
a very valuable posture
6:21
because
6:25
the Anthropocene, and there's no
6:26
question about it, there are these
6:27
runaway impacts and these
6:30
unforeseen consequences
6:33
of some of humanity's greatest
6:35
achievements.
6:37
And the fallout from those
6:39
is felt unevenly by
6:42
different populations.
6:43
So how can we
6:46
both recognize that
6:50
technological solutions alone,
6:53
especially highly centralized
6:55
technological solutions alone,
6:58
won't address the
7:00
distributive challenges
7:02
of the Anthropocene? They
7:04
may
7:07
be central to engineering the
7:08
future, but how do we make sure
7:11
that the future's
7:12
available to us imaginatively
7:14
and ultimately and materially
7:17
or accommodating
7:19
of as wide a variety of
7:21
human needs as possible?
7:23
And so there's a sense,
7:25
I think, as you're intimating, that
7:27
for some people, humility is
7:30
a negative or defeatist posture.
7:32
But if
7:35
an ideology
7:37
of dominion and earth mastery
7:40
has created some of
7:42
the most dramatic crises
7:44
of our time,
7:46
I would be wary of doubling down
7:48
on dominion,
7:50
especially when that dominion, as I
7:52
say, is highly
7:55
centralized.
7:56
And there's been such a pushback
7:58
against participatory democracy.
8:00
Yeah.
8:02
Well, you also write a lot about the
8:04
idea of representation
8:05
in the Anthropocene and how it is
8:07
that the arts, in particular,
8:09
can play a role in representing
8:12
the era
8:14
that we're currently in.
8:16
You reference in a recent piece of
8:17
writing, Amitav Ghosh comments about
8:19
the realist novel and the
8:20
limitations of that form.
8:22
You do it, I think, not to kind of
8:23
like-- not to necessarily bash
8:25
the realist novel or realism in
8:27
general but to raise
8:29
the idea of form and
8:31
the kind of current moment that
8:33
we're in. And I wonder if you can
8:34
say a little bit about that and your
8:35
thoughts on kind of form and the
8:37
novel. And you write about arts
8:39
outside of literature, too.
8:40
So just any thoughts you have about
8:42
that issue?
8:42
Well, I mean, one of the things that
8:44
Amitav Ghosh writes about in The
8:45
Great Arrangement is
8:47
the degree to which
8:49
enlightenment thinking
8:51
was word centered.
8:53
And he doesn't go into it in great
8:55
detail, but he leads towards the end
8:57
that the way
8:59
that our cultures of communication
9:02
have shifted so radically
9:03
recently and have become
9:05
more image centered.
9:06
And there's a different meld of
9:09
word and image.
9:10
And I certainly see the
9:12
power of that
9:14
and the creativity that
9:16
has been magnetized by
9:18
the new platforms that meld
9:20
with an image in relation
9:22
to attempts to communicate
9:25
these vast scales of time and place
9:28
and to create
9:31
figurative ways of
9:34
entering
9:36
sensorially into what can seem
9:38
kind of daunting epoch-size
9:41
events.
9:43
Right.
9:44
I'm also interested in asking you a
9:46
question about form and
9:48
your own work as a critic
9:50
and a writer.
9:52
The big question is kind of
9:54
what thoughts you have or efforts
9:56
you've made to work with form in
9:57
your own work.
9:58
But there's a particular work of
10:00
yours that's a few years old called
10:02
How to Read a Bridge, which
10:04
to me, I
10:07
was reading through all your other
10:08
works and thinking of them as
10:09
essays, and this one seems almost
10:10
like prose poetry or something.
10:11
Like you're doing something a little
10:12
bit different.
10:13
I wonder if you can talk about that
10:14
or other efforts you've made.
10:16
Right. So, I have a background
10:18
in journalism, and as a nonfiction
10:20
writer, I wrote a memoir, and I've
10:21
written a number of autobiographical
10:23
essays, and I feel
10:25
quite strongly that
10:27
there's a place for
10:30
autobiographical thinking that also
10:32
has a conceptual component.
10:34
And I did my dissertation
10:37
with Edward Said, and the thing
10:38
that I came away
10:41
from that period with most
10:43
strongly was
10:46
his commitment to
10:49
the sort of cunning of accessibility
10:50
that it's actually often harder
10:52
to
10:54
communicate an idea lucidly
10:56
than it is to
10:58
announce it in an opaque
11:00
and a recognizably
11:02
academic way.
11:03
So in a number of essays, including
11:05
How to Read a Bridge, I've tried to
11:08
start from an autobiographical
11:09
place. In
11:12
this essay, going back
11:14
to the town I was brought up in
11:16
South Africa and
11:19
driving through what were the former
11:21
Bantustans, the reservations
11:23
sort of more or less equivalent to
11:24
the Native
11:26
reservations in the US,
11:29
and coming across this bridge
11:32
which divided
11:35
white South Africa from the
11:37
Bantustans, these segregated
11:39
homelands, so-called homelands
11:42
for the Zulus, closest different
11:44
groups.
11:44
And when I
11:46
went down below the bridge, I saw
11:48
that the bridge was being prized
11:50
apart by these strangler
11:52
figs. Their root systems
11:55
were in the divides and in these
11:56
concrete blocks and was actually
11:58
being pulled apart.
11:59
And there were these weaver birds,
12:00
these bright yellow birds that make
12:02
pendulous
12:04
nests that had built
12:06
in it. It was a colony of the birds.
12:08
So there was this whole what
12:11
scientist sometimes call novel
12:12
ecosystem that
12:14
had taken advantage of
12:16
infrastructural neglect.
12:18
And so what I was trying to do in
12:20
that essay was to tease
12:22
out
12:24
my personal thoughts and personal
12:26
memories, the political history
12:28
of that place, and also
12:30
some of the
12:32
debates around
12:34
animal agency
12:36
and botanical
12:38
agency that are current
12:40
in academe.
12:40
And so we hear
12:42
talk of, say, ecosystem engineers.
12:45
And it seems to me that
12:47
the strangler figs,
12:49
in a way, are ecosystem engineers.
12:50
Defensible architecture, too, right?
12:52
Right.
12:53
They're building a kind of-- creating
12:54
some defensible architecture for themselves. Yeah.
12:55
Exactly. Creating defensible
12:57
architecture. And they are
12:59
exploiting
13:00
an infrastructure of neglect
13:02
that had an apartheid history.
13:04
It was rooted, as it were, in
13:06
race.
13:07
So
13:09
it was a short essay and a kind of
13:11
an attempt to evoke these different
13:13
layers of feeling.
13:14
Yeah. You end that essay with
13:15
talking about the fact that you
13:17
wrote an email suggesting
13:20
that the government should do
13:21
something and get these figs off of
13:22
there. I imagine you're still
13:24
waiting that reply.
13:25
Yeah, I'm still waiting for the reply.
13:28
Well, I want to ask a question
13:30
about-- this is kind of connected,
13:32
I think, some of the
13:34
comments you've already made about
13:35
kind of like form and
13:38
things like that. This
13:40
is a question about language.
13:43
And it comes from some of the
13:45
reviews from your most recent
13:46
publication, which is Slow Violence
13:47
and the Environmentalism of the
13:49
Poor.
13:49
And some of the reviewers pointed
13:51
out something which I have noticed
13:53
across your work, which is how
13:54
skilled you are at creating new and
13:56
evocative phrases in
13:59
the work to
14:02
create new opportunities or new ways
14:04
of seeing relations to our moment.
14:07
I wonder if that's something that
14:09
you think-- I mean, Slow Violence
14:11
really, in itself, is kind of one of
14:12
them, right? That's the lead one.
14:14
But there are a number of others,
14:14
too.
14:15
I wonder how you think about that in
14:17
your work and if that's something
14:18
you consciously aim to do or if
14:20
it's something that kind of just
14:22
naturally comes out of the
14:24
larger goals that you've got in your
14:25
criticism.
14:28
Yeah, it's
14:30
not a conscious thing.
14:31
I mean, I think there are useful
14:33
neologisms and neologisms
14:35
that require so much explaining
14:37
that they don't function
14:39
outside of a very localized
14:41
context.
14:42
So it's hard to know what will gain
14:43
purchase or traction and what won't.
14:46
But I do think, in general,
14:50
if you can use ordinary words
14:52
to try to shift consciousness,
14:54
it's much better than creating
14:57
sort of bulky Latinate
14:59
neologisms that need a lot of unpacking.
15:01
And if we think of terms, I mean,
15:03
there are terms that are
15:05
super self-explanatory.
15:07
Like I think environmental justice
15:09
is quite easy to convey
15:10
to a layperson,
15:12
whereas there are terms I wish could
15:14
be uninvented, like neoliberalism.
15:17
It's bandied around a lot, and
15:19
it's trying to communicate certain
15:21
important things, but it's certainly
15:22
not self-explanatory.
15:25
Postcolonialism to a certain extent
15:26
as well.
15:27
So I
15:30
love lucidity combined
15:32
with a paradigmatic
15:34
shift. If you can get that
15:36
combination,
15:39
I think that's the kind of ideal
15:41
space.
15:42
Yeah.
15:44
Well, I think it seems to me like
15:46
slow violence is a
15:48
phrase that has been taken up fairly
15:50
successfully.
15:51
And it's possible,
15:53
for example, to read articles.
15:55
I recently read an article in The
15:56
Guardian by Robert McFarlane about
15:59
the-- he was writing about the
16:00
Anthropocene, and he uses the
16:02
phrase slow violence without quoting
16:04
the work or anything. It seems to
16:05
just kind of like have seeped into
16:07
discourse about this.
16:09
And I wonder if
16:11
you have seen-- so it's
16:13
been a number of years since your
16:14
book came out and whether
16:16
the phrase slow violence or even the
16:18
idea of slowness itself, does it
16:19
seem to you like it is gaining
16:21
traction and becoming something that
16:23
is a usable tool
16:26
for people imagining that moment?
16:26
Yes, definitely.
16:27
And I've
16:29
been surprised by that.
16:32
There was a student who wrote
16:34
to me from Stanford, and his father
16:36
had been a football player, and he
16:38
was a football player.
16:40
And he was doing his thesis
16:42
on slow violence and
16:44
head injuries.
16:45
And the fact that
16:47
there wasn't a dramatic call
16:49
to the damage, but the damage was
16:51
cumulative attrition and
16:53
not really counted as violence, or
16:55
it wasn't counted as brutal.
16:58
And so he had this familial history
17:00
of brain damage that he was
17:02
trying to speak to.
17:04
And he just said he found that
17:05
helpful.
17:07
And I was especially touched by a
17:08
woman who wrote to me from Canada
17:10
recently who said
17:13
she'd been
17:16
reading this book for a cause, and
17:18
she'd been in an abusive
17:19
relationship and
17:22
had been afraid to leave a
17:23
relationship because she had
17:25
two kids.
17:26
And then, in the course of
17:28
reading this book, she had
17:30
realized that she had a vocabulary
17:33
for talking about domestic
17:35
abuse that she couldn't quite
17:37
pinpoint in terms
17:38
of broken bones or
17:41
overt brutalization, but
17:43
that the incremental brutalization
17:45
was such.
17:46
So, I mean, the fact she
17:48
left the relationship and finds
17:50
herself in a better space is due
17:52
almost entirely to her courage.
17:53
But I felt
17:55
gratified that the language
17:58
resonated in an unexpected
18:00
way.
18:01
Yeah.
18:03
Well, also thinking about
18:05
this idea of
18:07
slowness is
18:09
one of the spaces in your work
18:11
where I see kind of opportunities
18:13
for the tools of the humanities to
18:15
be an important-- make an important
18:16
contribution to our discussions.
18:17
Having
18:19
to do with attention to language,
18:21
having to do with awareness of
18:22
history, the
18:24
kind of patient elaboration, I
18:25
suppose, of issues and problems and
18:27
things like that. I wonder, and this
18:30
could be a naive question, but if
18:31
there is a
18:34
greater sense of awareness about
18:36
the relevance
18:38
of, let's say slow violence.
18:41
Is there greater opportunities
18:43
for the humanities also
18:45
attendant to that to kind of be a
18:46
part of these discussions?
18:48
Yeah, I think very much so.
18:50
And by humanities,
18:53
I include the arts.
18:54
And so, I was
18:57
recently teaching
18:59
Jeff Orlowski's movie Chasing
19:02
Ice with
19:05
photographic attempts to use
19:08
very sophisticated technologies
19:10
to dramatize
19:12
something like glacial retreat.
19:14
So some of what's available now
19:16
in technological terms was simply
19:18
not possible before in terms
19:20
of
19:22
slow-motion footage, and
19:25
just the engineering
19:29
side of it can help the
19:31
narrative side of it.
19:33
And I see a lot of those kind
19:35
of collaborations,
19:37
even if you look at, say,
19:40
Planet Earth 1 versus Planet Earth
19:42
2. In Planet Earth 2,
19:44
it's a drone-driven
19:46
film, and you think, "Wow,
19:48
okay." And there's a difference
19:50
in the pacing. There's a difference
19:51
in the idea of distance.
19:55
And so I
19:57
think ideas
20:01
of narrative per
20:03
se are shifting in relation to time
20:05
and in relation to
20:07
technology.
20:08
And so there is this paradox
20:10
with, say, the Anthropocene
20:13
that we are suddenly asked to think
20:14
of ourselves as geological
20:16
actors on this vast
20:18
stage at the same time
20:21
as we are operating
20:23
in minuscule
20:25
units of time, and our
20:27
attentiveness is kind of
20:29
fractured.
20:31
And we have this ability to create
20:32
like aggregate power
20:34
in a very short space of time,
20:36
but that part can dissipate very
20:38
rapidly.
20:39
And so, how do we deal
20:41
with the narrative
20:43
demands of something like
20:45
glacial retreat, climate change,
20:47
the Anthropocene
20:49
at a time where we have all of these
20:51
fantastic
20:53
media platforms? But we're
20:58
competing for
21:01
fragments of time.
21:03
Yeah.
21:04
And I mean, you mentioned Edward
21:06
Said earlier, and
21:08
this is reminding me of kind of like
21:10
the comment you made about kind of
21:12
like being
21:14
canny about the ways that messages
21:16
can get out. Right? And then, not
21:18
necessarily giving up on complexity,
21:19
but communicating with the big
21:21
audience.
21:22
I want to ask you a question that
21:24
is kind of connected, I think, to
21:27
your mention of Said earlier.
21:29
And it's about public intellectuals,
21:30
which is a category that comes
21:32
up in your work.
21:34
One of the things I recognized
21:36
reading
21:41
you writing about public
21:42
intellectuals and slow violence
21:44
and the environmentalism of the poor
21:46
was-- I kind of got a sense when
21:48
you were talking about a lot of the
21:50
writers that you were reading
21:52
in that book. I'm thinking of
21:53
Wangari Maathai.
21:54
I'm thinking of June Jordan and
21:55
Jamaica Kincaid and all the other
21:57
authors that you read in that book.
22:00
You mentioned, early on, that many
22:01
of them had been the first in their
22:03
family to go to college and
22:06
that there's a kind of-- not only
22:07
are they in
22:09
their work dealing with issues of
22:11
dislocation and things but that
22:12
biographically, they're also dealing
22:14
with that.
22:15
That really, for me, in a way, kind
22:17
of made-- and you go on to talk
22:18
about, then, that they're performing
22:19
translational work.
22:20
And
22:23
that, to me, it
22:25
sort of crystallized, I think, the
22:27
idea of the public intellectual as
22:28
engaged in this kind of not just
22:30
translation but a kind of a struggle
22:31
and kind of inventing community and
22:33
being forced to invent that sense of
22:35
community as part of
22:37
what they're doing all the time.
22:38
And
22:41
I wonder if you can talk a little
22:42
bit about that and that kind of
22:43
picture of the public intellectual
22:45
versus something like-- it's so
22:47
easy to find people talking
22:49
about public intellectuals in the
22:50
sense that they would be leaders of
22:52
certain kinds. And I think that's a
22:53
very different picture of the role
22:54
of a public intellectual.
22:55
I wonder if you can say a little bit
22:57
about that.
22:57
Yeah. I mean, Wangari Maathai
22:59
is a great example of
23:01
somebody. She was the first
23:03
in her family to go to college and
23:05
the first woman in East Africa to
23:07
get a Ph.D.
23:08
in the life sciences.
23:10
She comes to America, does a degree,
23:11
she's exposed to the civil rights
23:13
struggle, goes back, and connects
23:15
and creates this with
23:17
rural women like herself.
23:21
But she's a go-between.
23:23
And ultimately, the Green Belt
23:25
movement planted something like
23:27
30 million trees.
23:28
I mean, enormous success.
23:30
But she was able to perform
23:32
different selves for different
23:34
audiences.
23:35
And when you emigrate or when you
23:37
migrate across classes or
23:39
identities, you
23:41
have a repertoire of selves.
23:43
And it's not a question of integrity
23:46
or not having integrity.
23:47
It's a question of actually
23:50
performing certain features of
23:51
yourself that allow you to
23:53
connect with that audience.
23:54
And so if you survived
23:57
that upheaval in the chaos of
24:00
something like immigration or being
24:01
the first generation to go
24:03
to college, you can actually draw
24:05
on those as resources.
24:07
And both myself and my partner, Ann
24:09
McClintock, were
24:11
first generation college students.
24:12
So we were constantly
24:14
trying to explain to our family what
24:15
it was we did.
24:17
And so you
24:20
don't take for granted the idea
24:22
that, A, you have a college
24:24
education and, B,
24:26
that what you're doing
24:28
is communicable.
24:29
And I think there's some-- maybe for
24:33
people who are the first generation
24:34
college, there's some familial
24:36
pressure to be pretty simple and
24:38
clear in your communication
24:40
about what the hell it is you're
24:41
doing, especially in the humanities,
24:42
perhaps. Yeah.
24:45
Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you
24:45
about that. I mean, the
24:47
kind of the description you're
24:49
making here of kind of the
24:50
translational work reminds me so
24:51
much of Edward Said's work.
24:53
And it also reminds me of-- I mean,
24:54
I really enjoyed reading-- you
24:55
mentioned your memoir earlier, and
24:57
that's Dream Bird.
24:58
And I really enjoyed that a lot.
25:00
And that's a lot of, I think, what
25:02
you talk about there.
25:03
I mean, it's a memoir, but it's also
25:04
a totally fascinating book about
25:06
ostriches, among other things.
25:08
Among other things.
25:08
But there's a lot of the histories
25:10
of ostriches there.
25:12
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit
25:13
about or expand on
25:15
- you already mentioned a bit - a
25:16
little bit on some of
25:18
the translational work that you talk
25:20
about there and how that's been a
25:21
part of your work?
25:23
Well, I was very fortunate when I
25:24
arrived in the US.
25:26
I left South Africa as a
25:27
conscientious objector.
25:28
This is the end of the apartheid
25:29
days.
25:31
So there was a two-year call up for
25:33
white kids after high school.
25:35
And I put that off until after
25:37
university. Then, I had
25:39
to leave.
25:40
And so I arrived
25:43
in the middle of the anti-apartheid
25:45
protest in the US, the boycott
25:47
years.
25:49
And I happened to
25:51
write a piece for The Village Voice,
25:53
and The Village Voice was sort of
25:55
a very dynamic publication.
25:57
And so I started writing for
25:58
particularly for The Village Voice
25:59
and The Nation as a graduate
26:01
student.
26:03
And that was enormously beneficial
26:05
because I felt it was a place
26:07
to put my political passions.
26:10
But it also allowed me to hone a
26:12
public voice in
26:15
a context that had a fairly high
26:17
intellectual caliber of
26:19
thinking.
26:21
And that combination really
26:23
helped me a lot.
26:26
And one
26:28
of the things that I struggle
26:30
with this generation of students
26:32
is I was able to--
26:35
when I was a graduate student, I
26:36
would write a 1500-word
26:38
piece for The Voice.
26:40
And I would get $1,000
26:42
or something.
26:43
And that was probably $2,000
26:45
today.
26:46
And it helped pay the rent and
26:48
helped me move
26:50
forward in my career, helped
26:52
me reduce student debt and
26:54
all of those things.
26:55
And the challenge today,
26:57
when I see students just as talented
26:59
as I was as writers now, is
27:01
how do you monetize that.
27:02
There's so much content
27:04
out there, and so much of it is
27:06
brilliant, but
27:08
it's not priced the way it was
27:10
when I was starting out.
27:11
And I feel for
27:14
the students that
27:17
there's kind of a volunteer
27:19
creativity, whereas I had the
27:21
affirmation that
27:23
it was political, it was creative,
27:24
and it was financially
27:26
rewarding. And that was a real
27:28
trifecta.
27:31
Yeah. Well, I want to ask you one
27:32
other question, if I could, from
27:33
Dream Birds.
27:35
And this is a--
27:38
there's - I guess I would say - a
27:39
story that
27:41
is in that book that
27:43
you talk in the beginning.
27:44
It's about your grandmother and the
27:46
Mavis.
27:47
The Mavis is a bird.
27:49
I'll let you tell the story.
27:51
But it's something that
27:52
seems-- it seemed to me in that
27:54
book, we talked a little bit about
27:55
images earlier and how an image is
27:57
kind of like being able to do
27:58
certain things.
27:59
And these are visual images.
28:00
But that to me was kind of an image
28:02
in that book that seemed to
28:04
have so many-- seemed to be able to
28:06
kind of crystallize or pull together
28:07
so many of the different-- that
28:09
story, anyway.
28:10
It was one that pulled together so
28:12
many of those things in that book.
28:13
I wonder if you can just say a
28:14
little bit about that story and
28:16
talk about that.
28:18
As it happened, I did my early work
28:20
on V.S. Naipaul, and I remember an
28:22
essay he wrote called Jasmine
28:24
where he talked about
28:26
having read about Jasmine in the
28:28
book and not realizing that the
28:29
flower that he smelled, this
28:31
overwhelming,
28:33
deep, powerful smell
28:35
that he smelled every day
28:38
on the island was connected to that
28:40
word. And there was a book word,
28:42
and there was a smell, and
28:44
that he didn't expect to have
28:47
the objects in his everyday world,
28:50
coming from the Caribbean, reflected
28:51
in literature, which always seemed
28:53
to come from elsewhere.
28:54
And so I grew up in an unusual
28:56
family, which there were nine
28:58
of us and four generations under one
29:00
roof.
29:00
And my great grandfather and
29:02
grandmother had grown up in Scotland
29:05
before moving to South Africa.
29:08
And so my grandmother would often
29:10
reminisce about Scotland.
29:10
And she said, before she died,
29:12
one of the things she really wanted
29:14
was to hear the Mavis sing.
29:17
She used to hear the Mavis sing on
29:18
the way to school, and nobody could
29:19
find out what this Mavis thing was.
29:22
She didn't know. That was the only
29:23
word she knew.
29:24
And other friends you knew who knew
29:25
a lot about birds.
29:28
I tried looking it up and so forth.
29:30
And then I was doing
29:32
some research in the British Museum
29:34
in London at the time, and we were
29:35
living in North London.
29:38
And I happened
29:40
to come across this word, Mavis,
29:42
and it was the song
29:44
thrush.
29:45
And I walked home that
29:47
evening from the tube across
29:49
the lawns, and there these song
29:51
thrushes were singing.
29:52
And it was this incredible sense of
29:55
just completing the loop
29:57
of a story.
29:59
There she was, 80
30:01
years before, as a schoolgirl
30:03
walking to school in Scotland,
30:04
listening to this noise, to the
30:06
sound. And here
30:08
I was. She
30:10
had died in the meantime. Having
30:12
this avenue, this very, very
30:14
personal avenue into this
30:16
bird song, once the
30:17
meaning of the word Mavis had
30:19
been released.
30:20
Yeah.
30:21
And it seemed to me to
30:23
say a lot about things that you're
30:25
concerned with in that book, in your
30:26
memoir, but also throughout your
30:27
work about
30:29
the really complicated relationships
30:31
that humans have with the
30:33
natural world around them and
30:35
that it's not necessarily just one
30:36
of appreciation, that it's one
30:38
sometimes where nature is something
30:39
that humans can kind of project
30:41
dreams on. And dreams,
30:43
desires, things like that.
30:44
And that there's so much more to
30:46
it than the times it gets written
30:48
about.
30:49
Absolutely.
30:51
And I think that
30:53
connects with the issue of
30:55
translating science into the public
30:57
realm as well.
30:58
That you can have ecosystem
31:00
science that looks at
31:03
whether it's a functioning
31:05
ecosystem or not or
31:07
a compromised ecosystem.
31:09
And so you have scientists
31:11
talk about, say, a functional
31:12
analogue in an ecosystem,
31:14
which would be, say, an apex
31:16
predator. So when an apex predator
31:18
is removed, but you bring in another
31:19
apex predator that forms
31:21
a similar function.
31:23
But if we're talking about, say, an
31:25
apex predator like a wolf,
31:27
you put a wolf in a story, and
31:30
it's got an incredible heritage,
31:32
positive and negative.
31:33
Like everybody has
31:35
feelings about wolves, even people
31:37
who haven't seen them.
31:39
So if we talk about the wolf as a
31:40
functional analogue, we're talking
31:42
one kind of a register.
31:43
If we're talking about it as a wolf,
31:45
whether it's replaced or not,
31:47
it has an enormous
31:50
cultural energy.
31:52
And so I think that's
31:54
part of where the environmental
31:56
humanities and arts come in is how
31:59
do we understand
32:02
the science, learn the science,
32:05
and then think about
32:07
the implications of communicating
32:09
the science in this kind of image
32:11
or that kind of story or that kind
32:13
of figure of speech.
32:15
Yeah. And not
32:17
only that, but your work, it seems
32:19
like one of the things that
32:21
is so important to you is to try
32:23
to harness that, understand it, and
32:25
kind of like move us towards
32:27
a--
32:29
move us towards a world
32:31
that is more characterized by
32:33
participatory democracy, perhaps,
32:34
than the one that we're currently in.
32:35
Absolutely. And I think one of the
32:37
very encouraging things about
32:39
environmental studies
32:41
today, in particularly the
32:43
humanities, is
32:45
there was a perception that
32:47
environmentalism at one point
32:49
was not kind of real politics.
32:50
And it was very much--
32:52
it emanated from a kind
32:54
of American studies and
32:56
was wilderness-focused.
32:58
There was a component of
33:00
that was sort of anti-human
33:02
environmentalism. It was going
33:04
back to the seventies.
33:05
And that's not the complete story by
33:06
any means, but there was a strong
33:08
strain of that and an
33:10
idea that this message
33:12
needed to be communicated
33:14
to poorer people and people
33:16
elsewhere in the world.
33:16
And I think what has shifted now,
33:19
and this is partly due to
33:20
environmental justice coming front
33:22
and center,
33:24
is that we understand multiple
33:26
genealogies of environmentalism.
33:28
And so, if we
33:30
think of the tree huggers in
33:32
the Chipko Forest in India
33:34
in the 1970s, these were
33:37
villages who had depended on the
33:39
forest for firewood,
33:42
for the protection of their water,
33:43
for food.
33:45
And the government then said, "We've
33:46
sold this off to
33:48
a sports company." I think it was a
33:50
cricket bat company or something.
33:52
And they found these people arriving
33:54
claiming that they owned the forest,
33:55
whereas they felt that spiritual
33:57
ownership of it.
33:58
They formed these chains
34:00
around the trees. And that's our
34:02
earliest record of tree-hugging.
34:03
So we might be
34:05
associated with Humboldt County,
34:07
but there are there are many, many
34:08
starting places for these.
34:10
And every community
34:12
has its own
34:15
place of purchase in
34:17
the environmental world.
34:18
And if we listen to those and
34:20
we respect those, I think we
34:22
have a much better chance
34:24
of actually
34:26
preserving what we value
34:28
and adapting to what we
34:30
cannot change.
34:33
Yeah. Well, Rob Nixon, thanks so
34:34
much for joining us.
34:35
Thank you, Dan.
34:37
That's it for this edition of Being
34:39
Human.
34:40
This episode was produced by
34:41
Christian Snyder, Humanities Media
34:42
Fellow at the University of
34:43
Pittsburgh.
34:44
Stay tuned next time when my guest
34:45
will be Robin Bernstein, Professor
34:47
of African and African American
34:48
Studies at Harvard University.
34:50
Thanks for listening.
In collections
Being Human Podcast Recordings
Order Reproduction
Title
Slow Violence and a Repertoire of Selves: An Interview with Rob Nixon
Contributor
University of Pittsburgh (depositor)
Nixon, Rob, 1954- (interviewee)
Kubis, Dan (interviewer)
Date
June 1, 2018
Identifier
20230127-beinghuman-0032
Description
An interview with Rob Nixon, professor of English at Princeton University. The interview focuses on Professor Nixon's life and career, particularly his work in environmental criticism and public humanities. His book "Slow Violence and the Environmentalism of the Poor" and essay "How to Read a Bridge" are discussed.
Extent
35 minutes
Publisher
University of Pittsburgh. Department of English
Type
sound recording-nonmusical
Genre
interviews
Subject
Ecocriticism
Environmentalism--Social aspects
Poor
Equality
Nixon, Rob, 1954-
Source
Being Human
Language
eng
Collection
Being Human Podcast Recordings
Contributor
University of Pittsburgh
Rights Information
In Copyright. This Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).. Rights Holder: University of Pittsburgh
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Rights Holder
University of Pittsburgh
Pinterest
Reddit
Twitter
Facebook