WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.780 --> 00:00:06.069 Hello and welcome to the latest 2 00:00:06.070 --> 00:00:07.449 installment of Being Human from the 3 00:00:07.450 --> 00:00:09.039 University of Pittsburgh. 4 00:00:09.040 --> 00:00:10.749 This series is devoted to exploring 5 00:00:10.750 --> 00:00:12.279 the humanities, their connections to 6 00:00:12.280 --> 00:00:13.659 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:13.660 --> 00:00:15.039 in the public world. 8 00:00:15.040 --> 00:00:16.689 I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of 9 00:00:16.690 --> 00:00:18.189 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:18.190 --> 00:00:19.819 My guest today is Rob Nixon, 11 00:00:19.820 --> 00:00:21.129 professor of English at Princeton 12 00:00:21.130 --> 00:00:22.130 University. 13 00:00:22.900 --> 00:00:24.429 Professor Nixon's work revealed the 14 00:00:24.430 --> 00:00:26.319 connections and divisions created by 15 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:28.989 global and transnational practices. 16 00:00:28.990 --> 00:00:30.549 He's most well-known for doing this 17 00:00:30.550 --> 00:00:32.769 in his 2011 book, Slow Violence 18 00:00:32.770 --> 00:00:34.029 and the Environmentalism of the 19 00:00:34.030 --> 00:00:35.919 Poor, a book that won multiple 20 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:37.659 awards and has provided a new 21 00:00:37.660 --> 00:00:39.099 vocabulary for talking about 22 00:00:39.100 --> 00:00:41.139 environmental movements. 23 00:00:41.140 --> 00:00:43.269 In this book, Nixon uses the concept 24 00:00:43.270 --> 00:00:44.559 of slow violence to link 25 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:45.969 environmental threats like oil 26 00:00:45.970 --> 00:00:47.709 spills, climate change, and 27 00:00:47.710 --> 00:00:50.139 radiation at nuclear test sites. 28 00:00:50.140 --> 00:00:51.879 These threats, Nixon argues, do 29 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:54.069 their damage over a longer timespan 30 00:00:54.070 --> 00:00:55.599 and thus lend themselves less 31 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:56.919 readily to high-profile 32 00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:57.920 environmental efforts. 33 00:00:59.530 --> 00:01:01.089 Nixon explores these threats through 34 00:01:01.090 --> 00:01:02.409 the work of marginal writers and 35 00:01:02.410 --> 00:01:04.359 activists like Kim Stanley Robinson, 36 00:01:04.360 --> 00:01:06.579 Wangari Maathai, Jamaica Kincaid, 37 00:01:06.580 --> 00:01:07.899 and others. 38 00:01:07.900 --> 00:01:09.519 Nixon's sensitive readings of these 39 00:01:09.520 --> 00:01:11.379 figures shows the disproportionate 40 00:01:11.380 --> 00:01:12.429 effect that environmental 41 00:01:12.430 --> 00:01:14.619 degradation has on the Global South 42 00:01:14.620 --> 00:01:16.089 and also reveals strategies for 43 00:01:16.090 --> 00:01:17.090 opposition. 44 00:01:17.950 --> 00:01:19.029 Much of Nixon's work is 45 00:01:19.030 --> 00:01:20.409 characterized by this ability to 46 00:01:20.410 --> 00:01:22.329 both reveal dangers and inspire 47 00:01:22.330 --> 00:01:23.769 resistance. 48 00:01:23.770 --> 00:01:25.089 Like one of his mentors, Edward 49 00:01:25.090 --> 00:01:26.679 Said, Nixon also writes and 50 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:27.849 publishes in ways that bring 51 00:01:27.850 --> 00:01:30.369 academic and public work together. 52 00:01:30.370 --> 00:01:31.959 His book, Dream Birds, for example, 53 00:01:31.960 --> 00:01:33.729 is both a memoir and a history of 54 00:01:33.730 --> 00:01:35.199 the ostrich as a commodity in 55 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:37.509 20th-century Western culture. 56 00:01:37.510 --> 00:01:39.189 Nixon's fascinating account of this 57 00:01:39.190 --> 00:01:40.959 history provides an unlikely example 58 00:01:40.960 --> 00:01:43.029 of capitalism's unending churn. 59 00:01:43.030 --> 00:01:44.379 But it also explores the subtle 60 00:01:44.380 --> 00:01:45.669 interactions between humans and 61 00:01:45.670 --> 00:01:47.589 nature and suggest that the two 62 00:01:47.590 --> 00:01:48.590 are inseparable. 63 00:01:49.390 --> 00:01:50.769 Nixon has recently been working on a 64 00:01:50.770 --> 00:01:51.759 series of essays on the 65 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:53.949 Anthropocene, and I began by asking 66 00:01:53.950 --> 00:01:55.419 him how his work contributes to this 67 00:01:55.420 --> 00:01:57.519 ongoing dialogue and how it relates 68 00:01:57.520 --> 00:01:58.959 to the important work he's done to 69 00:01:58.960 --> 00:01:59.960 this point. 70 00:02:04.910 --> 00:02:05.899 The dominant idea of the 71 00:02:05.900 --> 00:02:07.699 Anthropocene is this idea that maybe 72 00:02:07.700 --> 00:02:10.309 we've reached a tipping point where 73 00:02:10.310 --> 00:02:12.679 Homo sapiens has become a geological 74 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:14.989 age. And as the biologist 75 00:02:14.990 --> 00:02:17.029 Anthony Barnosky put it, we 76 00:02:17.030 --> 00:02:18.709 are the asteroid. 77 00:02:18.710 --> 00:02:21.139 This idea that humanity has collided 78 00:02:21.140 --> 00:02:23.059 with earth's biology of 79 00:02:23.060 --> 00:02:25.009 physical systems, and 80 00:02:25.010 --> 00:02:27.049 we're changing the nitrogen cycle, 81 00:02:27.050 --> 00:02:28.909 the water cycle, the carbon 82 00:02:28.910 --> 00:02:29.910 cycle. Through 83 00:02:32.270 --> 00:02:33.270 habitat loss, 84 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:36.769 extinction rates have soared. 85 00:02:36.770 --> 00:02:38.029 And so, there are all these 86 00:02:38.030 --> 00:02:40.279 different ways in which 87 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:42.079 life on earth has been altered. 88 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:43.969 And so, this has 89 00:02:43.970 --> 00:02:45.889 become a kind of gathering place 90 00:02:45.890 --> 00:02:46.890 for 91 00:02:47.720 --> 00:02:49.099 public figures and also 92 00:02:49.100 --> 00:02:50.449 intellectuals from all different 93 00:02:50.450 --> 00:02:51.349 disciplines. 94 00:02:51.350 --> 00:02:52.759 And I think that's the positive side 95 00:02:52.760 --> 00:02:54.079 of it. The people have strong 96 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:54.979 opinions. 97 00:02:54.980 --> 00:02:57.589 They have a 98 00:02:57.590 --> 00:02:59.539 stake in it, and it's 99 00:02:59.540 --> 00:03:02.159 become a very fertile place 100 00:03:02.160 --> 00:03:03.259 of debate. 101 00:03:03.260 --> 00:03:05.089 My own particular take on it is 102 00:03:05.090 --> 00:03:07.159 to do with my background 103 00:03:07.160 --> 00:03:09.229 in postcolonial studies, 104 00:03:09.230 --> 00:03:12.319 which is the relationship between 105 00:03:12.320 --> 00:03:15.139 Homo sapiens as a species actor 106 00:03:15.140 --> 00:03:17.179 and the vast disparities among 107 00:03:17.180 --> 00:03:19.249 different actors in terms 108 00:03:19.250 --> 00:03:21.529 of our impacts on 109 00:03:21.530 --> 00:03:23.449 the earth's past, present, and 110 00:03:23.450 --> 00:03:25.459 future, and the degree 111 00:03:25.460 --> 00:03:26.460 to which-- 112 00:03:27.350 --> 00:03:29.059 there's a danger sometimes that we 113 00:03:29.060 --> 00:03:31.099 lump humanity together 114 00:03:31.100 --> 00:03:33.469 as a single geological agent, 115 00:03:33.470 --> 00:03:35.419 that we lose sight of 116 00:03:35.420 --> 00:03:37.369 histories of colonialism, histories 117 00:03:37.370 --> 00:03:39.439 of injustice, the degree 118 00:03:39.440 --> 00:03:40.440 to which, say, 119 00:03:41.510 --> 00:03:43.399 one person might 120 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:44.650 have a knee-deep 121 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:47.929 ecological footprint, another 122 00:03:47.930 --> 00:03:50.539 person might have an indecipherable 123 00:03:50.540 --> 00:03:52.579 ecological footprint because 124 00:03:52.580 --> 00:03:54.289 they have so little impact in terms 125 00:03:54.290 --> 00:03:55.340 of their resource use. 126 00:03:56.480 --> 00:03:58.819 And so, trying to tease apart 127 00:03:58.820 --> 00:04:01.729 the idea of the human epoch. 128 00:04:01.730 --> 00:04:04.189 So that's one key area. 129 00:04:04.190 --> 00:04:06.139 Related to that is the 130 00:04:06.140 --> 00:04:08.359 degree to which, in some circles, 131 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:09.919 and I don't want to paint the whole 132 00:04:09.920 --> 00:04:10.920 Anthropocene 133 00:04:11.810 --> 00:04:14.929 like this, but in some circles, 134 00:04:14.930 --> 00:04:16.789 I have some concern 135 00:04:16.790 --> 00:04:18.619 that the Anthropocene could 136 00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:21.619 become a stalking horse 137 00:04:21.620 --> 00:04:24.019 or a Trojan horse really for 138 00:04:24.020 --> 00:04:25.020 reinserting 139 00:04:26.210 --> 00:04:28.069 the selective enlightenment 140 00:04:28.070 --> 00:04:29.759 into the thinking about human. 141 00:04:29.760 --> 00:04:31.346 So it started off as the age of man. 142 00:04:31.347 --> 00:04:33.679 It was a problematic 143 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:35.119 idea. 144 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:36.120 And 145 00:04:37.020 --> 00:04:38.689 there are, I think, in some 146 00:04:38.690 --> 00:04:39.690 quarters, attempts 147 00:04:42.410 --> 00:04:44.539 to see this as a species 148 00:04:44.540 --> 00:04:46.429 problem without first 149 00:04:46.430 --> 00:04:48.439 discriminating among 150 00:04:48.440 --> 00:04:49.999 different histories of the species. 151 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.369 Who has been 152 00:04:52.370 --> 00:04:54.349 deemed fully human, who has 153 00:04:54.350 --> 00:04:55.578 been deemed less than human, 154 00:04:57.020 --> 00:04:58.639 and how does that play out in our 155 00:04:58.640 --> 00:05:00.139 thinking? And so one of the things 156 00:05:00.140 --> 00:05:01.279 that I've been writing a bit about 157 00:05:01.280 --> 00:05:03.769 is the we of the Anthropocene. 158 00:05:03.770 --> 00:05:06.169 How do we disaggregate that 159 00:05:06.170 --> 00:05:08.209 and acknowledge that there's 160 00:05:08.210 --> 00:05:10.189 a concerted need for 161 00:05:10.190 --> 00:05:12.049 large-scale solutions, 162 00:05:12.050 --> 00:05:14.329 but in plutocratic 163 00:05:14.330 --> 00:05:16.159 times, there are dangers 164 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:17.899 that certain 165 00:05:19.670 --> 00:05:22.159 powerful actors can abrogate 166 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:23.989 to themselves, the 167 00:05:23.990 --> 00:05:25.819 right to govern the 168 00:05:25.820 --> 00:05:28.339 earth or to steer 169 00:05:28.340 --> 00:05:30.229 the earth in 170 00:05:30.230 --> 00:05:32.059 a certain path? So my 171 00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:34.249 interest comes from a commitment 172 00:05:34.250 --> 00:05:36.199 to participatory democracy 173 00:05:36.200 --> 00:05:38.299 to the struggle to 174 00:05:38.300 --> 00:05:40.129 have input from 175 00:05:40.130 --> 00:05:42.199 all humans and all 176 00:05:42.200 --> 00:05:45.049 non-humans who are affected 177 00:05:45.050 --> 00:05:46.939 by the choices that we 178 00:05:46.940 --> 00:05:48.079 make going forward. 179 00:05:49.280 --> 00:05:51.379 Yeah, well, one of the things in 180 00:05:51.380 --> 00:05:52.609 some recent writing that you've done 181 00:05:52.610 --> 00:05:54.649 on the Anthropocene, you bring 182 00:05:54.650 --> 00:05:56.463 up the idea of engaged humility. 183 00:05:56.464 --> 00:05:58.459 And that to me seemed 184 00:05:58.460 --> 00:06:01.069 like a kind of stance for you that 185 00:06:01.070 --> 00:06:02.509 you were suggesting could 186 00:06:03.740 --> 00:06:06.019 move forward with the position 187 00:06:06.020 --> 00:06:06.799 that you were just trying to 188 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:07.800 outline, and 189 00:06:08.660 --> 00:06:10.159 the idea that it's not kind of-- it 190 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:11.989 avoids a sense of mastery, 191 00:06:11.990 --> 00:06:14.119 but it doesn't fall into quietism. 192 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.189 Exactly. I think that's 193 00:06:16.190 --> 00:06:17.419 exactly right. I think engaged 194 00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:18.420 humility is 195 00:06:19.370 --> 00:06:20.779 a very valuable posture 196 00:06:21.830 --> 00:06:22.830 because 197 00:06:25.190 --> 00:06:26.629 the Anthropocene, and there's no 198 00:06:26.630 --> 00:06:27.949 question about it, there are these 199 00:06:27.950 --> 00:06:30.829 runaway impacts and these 200 00:06:30.830 --> 00:06:33.499 unforeseen consequences 201 00:06:33.500 --> 00:06:35.899 of some of humanity's greatest 202 00:06:35.900 --> 00:06:37.609 achievements. 203 00:06:37.610 --> 00:06:39.589 And the fallout from those 204 00:06:39.590 --> 00:06:42.049 is felt unevenly by 205 00:06:42.050 --> 00:06:43.639 different populations. 206 00:06:43.640 --> 00:06:44.660 So how can we 207 00:06:46.730 --> 00:06:48.649 both recognize that 208 00:06:50.570 --> 00:06:52.369 technological solutions alone, 209 00:06:53.420 --> 00:06:55.099 especially highly centralized 210 00:06:55.100 --> 00:06:56.690 technological solutions alone, 211 00:06:58.130 --> 00:07:00.049 won't address the 212 00:07:00.050 --> 00:07:02.269 distributive challenges 213 00:07:02.270 --> 00:07:03.270 of the Anthropocene? They 214 00:07:04.400 --> 00:07:05.400 may 215 00:07:07.220 --> 00:07:08.929 be central to engineering the 216 00:07:08.930 --> 00:07:11.029 future, but how do we make sure 217 00:07:11.030 --> 00:07:12.919 that the future's 218 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:14.809 available to us imaginatively 219 00:07:14.810 --> 00:07:17.179 and ultimately and materially 220 00:07:17.180 --> 00:07:19.639 or accommodating 221 00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:21.949 of as wide a variety of 222 00:07:21.950 --> 00:07:23.899 human needs as possible? 223 00:07:23.900 --> 00:07:25.969 And so there's a sense, 224 00:07:25.970 --> 00:07:27.949 I think, as you're intimating, that 225 00:07:27.950 --> 00:07:30.079 for some people, humility is 226 00:07:30.080 --> 00:07:32.599 a negative or defeatist posture. 227 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:33.950 But if 228 00:07:35.180 --> 00:07:37.249 an ideology 229 00:07:37.250 --> 00:07:40.189 of dominion and earth mastery 230 00:07:40.190 --> 00:07:42.079 has created some of 231 00:07:42.080 --> 00:07:44.209 the most dramatic crises 232 00:07:44.210 --> 00:07:45.210 of our time, 233 00:07:46.190 --> 00:07:48.319 I would be wary of doubling down 234 00:07:48.320 --> 00:07:49.320 on dominion, 235 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:52.519 especially when that dominion, as I 236 00:07:52.520 --> 00:07:55.009 say, is highly 237 00:07:55.010 --> 00:07:56.329 centralized. 238 00:07:56.330 --> 00:07:58.429 And there's been such a pushback 239 00:07:58.430 --> 00:08:00.559 against participatory democracy. 240 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:01.560 Yeah. 241 00:08:02.090 --> 00:08:04.069 Well, you also write a lot about the 242 00:08:04.070 --> 00:08:05.899 idea of representation 243 00:08:05.900 --> 00:08:07.609 in the Anthropocene and how it is 244 00:08:07.610 --> 00:08:09.499 that the arts, in particular, 245 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:12.399 can play a role in representing 246 00:08:12.400 --> 00:08:14.239 the era 247 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:15.240 that we're currently in. 248 00:08:16.430 --> 00:08:17.869 You reference in a recent piece of 249 00:08:17.870 --> 00:08:19.579 writing, Amitav Ghosh comments about 250 00:08:19.580 --> 00:08:20.539 the realist novel and the 251 00:08:20.540 --> 00:08:22.279 limitations of that form. 252 00:08:22.280 --> 00:08:23.749 You do it, I think, not to kind of 253 00:08:23.750 --> 00:08:25.609 like-- not to necessarily bash 254 00:08:25.610 --> 00:08:27.169 the realist novel or realism in 255 00:08:27.170 --> 00:08:29.449 general but to raise 256 00:08:29.450 --> 00:08:31.579 the idea of form and 257 00:08:31.580 --> 00:08:33.259 the kind of current moment that 258 00:08:33.260 --> 00:08:34.279 we're in. And I wonder if you can 259 00:08:34.280 --> 00:08:35.808 say a little bit about that and your 260 00:08:35.809 --> 00:08:37.788 thoughts on kind of form and the 261 00:08:37.789 --> 00:08:39.529 novel. And you write about arts 262 00:08:39.530 --> 00:08:40.769 outside of literature, too. 263 00:08:40.770 --> 00:08:42.439 So just any thoughts you have about 264 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:42.979 that issue? 265 00:08:42.980 --> 00:08:44.149 Well, I mean, one of the things that 266 00:08:44.150 --> 00:08:45.769 Amitav Ghosh writes about in The 267 00:08:45.770 --> 00:08:47.749 Great Arrangement is 268 00:08:47.750 --> 00:08:49.639 the degree to which 269 00:08:49.640 --> 00:08:51.709 enlightenment thinking 270 00:08:51.710 --> 00:08:53.929 was word centered. 271 00:08:53.930 --> 00:08:55.759 And he doesn't go into it in great 272 00:08:55.760 --> 00:08:57.409 detail, but he leads towards the end 273 00:08:57.410 --> 00:08:59.299 that the way 274 00:08:59.300 --> 00:09:01.999 that our cultures of communication 275 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:03.859 have shifted so radically 276 00:09:03.860 --> 00:09:05.899 recently and have become 277 00:09:05.900 --> 00:09:06.919 more image centered. 278 00:09:06.920 --> 00:09:09.379 And there's a different meld of 279 00:09:09.380 --> 00:09:10.519 word and image. 280 00:09:10.520 --> 00:09:12.409 And I certainly see the 281 00:09:12.410 --> 00:09:13.520 power of that 282 00:09:14.660 --> 00:09:16.639 and the creativity that 283 00:09:16.640 --> 00:09:18.799 has been magnetized by 284 00:09:18.800 --> 00:09:20.779 the new platforms that meld 285 00:09:20.780 --> 00:09:22.879 with an image in relation 286 00:09:22.880 --> 00:09:25.459 to attempts to communicate 287 00:09:25.460 --> 00:09:28.489 these vast scales of time and place 288 00:09:28.490 --> 00:09:31.489 and to create 289 00:09:31.490 --> 00:09:34.129 figurative ways of 290 00:09:34.130 --> 00:09:35.130 entering 291 00:09:36.410 --> 00:09:38.389 sensorially into what can seem 292 00:09:38.390 --> 00:09:40.635 kind of daunting epoch-size 293 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:43.129 events. 294 00:09:43.130 --> 00:09:44.130 Right. 295 00:09:44.660 --> 00:09:46.069 I'm also interested in asking you a 296 00:09:46.070 --> 00:09:48.259 question about form and 297 00:09:48.260 --> 00:09:50.209 your own work as a critic 298 00:09:50.210 --> 00:09:51.210 and a writer. 299 00:09:52.520 --> 00:09:54.529 The big question is kind of 300 00:09:54.530 --> 00:09:56.299 what thoughts you have or efforts 301 00:09:56.300 --> 00:09:57.829 you've made to work with form in 302 00:09:57.830 --> 00:09:58.849 your own work. 303 00:09:58.850 --> 00:10:00.469 But there's a particular work of 304 00:10:00.470 --> 00:10:02.599 yours that's a few years old called 305 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:04.789 How to Read a Bridge, which 306 00:10:04.790 --> 00:10:06.000 to me, I 307 00:10:07.070 --> 00:10:08.359 was reading through all your other 308 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:09.259 works and thinking of them as 309 00:10:09.260 --> 00:10:10.399 essays, and this one seems almost 310 00:10:10.400 --> 00:10:11.689 like prose poetry or something. 311 00:10:11.690 --> 00:10:12.739 Like you're doing something a little 312 00:10:12.740 --> 00:10:13.639 bit different. 313 00:10:13.640 --> 00:10:14.689 I wonder if you can talk about that 314 00:10:14.690 --> 00:10:16.203 or other efforts you've made. 315 00:10:16.204 --> 00:10:18.019 Right. So, I have a background 316 00:10:18.020 --> 00:10:20.359 in journalism, and as a nonfiction 317 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:21.739 writer, I wrote a memoir, and I've 318 00:10:21.740 --> 00:10:23.119 written a number of autobiographical 319 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:25.159 essays, and I feel 320 00:10:25.160 --> 00:10:26.389 quite strongly that 321 00:10:27.980 --> 00:10:30.349 there's a place for 322 00:10:30.350 --> 00:10:32.329 autobiographical thinking that also 323 00:10:32.330 --> 00:10:33.860 has a conceptual component. 324 00:10:34.940 --> 00:10:37.009 And I did my dissertation 325 00:10:37.010 --> 00:10:38.929 with Edward Said, and the thing 326 00:10:38.930 --> 00:10:41.149 that I came away 327 00:10:41.150 --> 00:10:43.099 from that period with most 328 00:10:43.100 --> 00:10:44.179 strongly was 329 00:10:46.190 --> 00:10:49.069 his commitment to 330 00:10:49.070 --> 00:10:50.779 the sort of cunning of accessibility 331 00:10:50.780 --> 00:10:52.819 that it's actually often harder 332 00:10:52.820 --> 00:10:53.820 to 333 00:10:54.740 --> 00:10:56.839 communicate an idea lucidly 334 00:10:56.840 --> 00:10:58.699 than it is to 335 00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:00.769 announce it in an opaque 336 00:11:00.770 --> 00:11:02.659 and a recognizably 337 00:11:02.660 --> 00:11:03.979 academic way. 338 00:11:03.980 --> 00:11:05.749 So in a number of essays, including 339 00:11:05.750 --> 00:11:08.299 How to Read a Bridge, I've tried to 340 00:11:08.300 --> 00:11:09.979 start from an autobiographical 341 00:11:09.980 --> 00:11:10.980 place. In 342 00:11:12.050 --> 00:11:14.119 this essay, going back 343 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.159 to the town I was brought up in 344 00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:18.230 South Africa and 345 00:11:19.250 --> 00:11:21.199 driving through what were the former 346 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.479 Bantustans, the reservations 347 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:24.829 sort of more or less equivalent to 348 00:11:24.830 --> 00:11:26.779 the Native 349 00:11:26.780 --> 00:11:28.130 reservations in the US, 350 00:11:29.540 --> 00:11:32.749 and coming across this bridge 351 00:11:32.750 --> 00:11:34.159 which divided 352 00:11:35.420 --> 00:11:37.669 white South Africa from the 353 00:11:37.670 --> 00:11:39.889 Bantustans, these segregated 354 00:11:39.890 --> 00:11:42.319 homelands, so-called homelands 355 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.059 for the Zulus, closest different 356 00:11:44.060 --> 00:11:44.959 groups. 357 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:45.960 And when I 358 00:11:46.940 --> 00:11:48.799 went down below the bridge, I saw 359 00:11:48.800 --> 00:11:50.299 that the bridge was being prized 360 00:11:50.300 --> 00:11:52.549 apart by these strangler 361 00:11:52.550 --> 00:11:55.289 figs. Their root systems 362 00:11:55.290 --> 00:11:56.959 were in the divides and in these 363 00:11:56.960 --> 00:11:58.219 concrete blocks and was actually 364 00:11:58.220 --> 00:11:59.389 being pulled apart. 365 00:11:59.390 --> 00:12:00.859 And there were these weaver birds, 366 00:12:00.860 --> 00:12:02.454 these bright yellow birds that make 367 00:12:02.455 --> 00:12:03.455 pendulous 368 00:12:04.900 --> 00:12:06.819 nests that had built 369 00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:08.979 in it. It was a colony of the birds. 370 00:12:08.980 --> 00:12:11.169 So there was this whole what 371 00:12:11.170 --> 00:12:12.429 scientist sometimes call novel 372 00:12:12.430 --> 00:12:14.319 ecosystem that 373 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:16.329 had taken advantage of 374 00:12:16.330 --> 00:12:18.909 infrastructural neglect. 375 00:12:18.910 --> 00:12:20.709 And so what I was trying to do in 376 00:12:20.710 --> 00:12:22.629 that essay was to tease 377 00:12:22.630 --> 00:12:23.630 out 378 00:12:24.460 --> 00:12:26.349 my personal thoughts and personal 379 00:12:26.350 --> 00:12:28.329 memories, the political history 380 00:12:28.330 --> 00:12:30.339 of that place, and also 381 00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:32.169 some of the 382 00:12:32.170 --> 00:12:34.029 debates around 383 00:12:34.030 --> 00:12:36.099 animal agency 384 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:38.109 and botanical 385 00:12:38.110 --> 00:12:40.039 agency that are current 386 00:12:40.040 --> 00:12:40.839 in academe. 387 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:42.969 And so we hear 388 00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:45.009 talk of, say, ecosystem engineers. 389 00:12:45.010 --> 00:12:46.210 And it seems to me that 390 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:49.134 the strangler figs, 391 00:12:49.135 --> 00:12:50.829 in a way, are ecosystem engineers. 392 00:12:50.830 --> 00:12:52.419 Defensible architecture, too, right? 393 00:12:52.420 --> 00:12:53.139 Right. 394 00:12:53.140 --> 00:12:54.399 They're building a kind of-- creating 395 00:12:54.400 --> 00:12:55.869 some defensible architecture for themselves. Yeah. 396 00:12:55.870 --> 00:12:57.219 Exactly. Creating defensible 397 00:12:57.220 --> 00:12:59.049 architecture. And they are 398 00:12:59.050 --> 00:13:00.939 exploiting 399 00:13:00.940 --> 00:13:02.859 an infrastructure of neglect 400 00:13:02.860 --> 00:13:04.809 that had an apartheid history. 401 00:13:04.810 --> 00:13:06.759 It was rooted, as it were, in 402 00:13:06.760 --> 00:13:07.569 race. 403 00:13:07.570 --> 00:13:08.570 So 404 00:13:09.400 --> 00:13:11.169 it was a short essay and a kind of 405 00:13:11.170 --> 00:13:13.179 an attempt to evoke these different 406 00:13:13.180 --> 00:13:14.179 layers of feeling. 407 00:13:14.180 --> 00:13:15.942 Yeah. You end that essay with 408 00:13:15.943 --> 00:13:17.799 talking about the fact that you 409 00:13:17.800 --> 00:13:20.259 wrote an email suggesting 410 00:13:20.260 --> 00:13:21.789 that the government should do 411 00:13:21.790 --> 00:13:22.995 something and get these figs off of 412 00:13:22.996 --> 00:13:24.219 there. I imagine you're still 413 00:13:24.220 --> 00:13:25.839 waiting that reply. 414 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:26.840 Yeah, I'm still waiting for the reply. 415 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:30.339 Well, I want to ask a question 416 00:13:30.340 --> 00:13:32.379 about-- this is kind of connected, 417 00:13:32.380 --> 00:13:34.419 I think, some of the 418 00:13:34.420 --> 00:13:35.889 comments you've already made about 419 00:13:35.890 --> 00:13:38.169 kind of like form and 420 00:13:38.170 --> 00:13:39.170 things like that. This 421 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.629 is a question about language. 422 00:13:43.630 --> 00:13:45.009 And it comes from some of the 423 00:13:45.010 --> 00:13:46.209 reviews from your most recent 424 00:13:46.210 --> 00:13:47.829 publication, which is Slow Violence 425 00:13:47.830 --> 00:13:49.059 and the Environmentalism of the 426 00:13:49.060 --> 00:13:49.929 Poor. 427 00:13:49.930 --> 00:13:51.369 And some of the reviewers pointed 428 00:13:51.370 --> 00:13:53.079 out something which I have noticed 429 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:54.939 across your work, which is how 430 00:13:54.940 --> 00:13:56.829 skilled you are at creating new and 431 00:13:56.830 --> 00:13:57.830 evocative phrases in 432 00:13:59.920 --> 00:14:00.920 the work to 433 00:14:02.920 --> 00:14:04.809 create new opportunities or new ways 434 00:14:04.810 --> 00:14:07.519 of seeing relations to our moment. 435 00:14:07.520 --> 00:14:09.639 I wonder if that's something that 436 00:14:09.640 --> 00:14:11.469 you think-- I mean, Slow Violence 437 00:14:11.470 --> 00:14:12.879 really, in itself, is kind of one of 438 00:14:12.880 --> 00:14:14.019 them, right? That's the lead one. 439 00:14:14.020 --> 00:14:14.859 But there are a number of others, 440 00:14:14.860 --> 00:14:15.879 too. 441 00:14:15.880 --> 00:14:17.769 I wonder how you think about that in 442 00:14:17.770 --> 00:14:18.909 your work and if that's something 443 00:14:18.910 --> 00:14:20.769 you consciously aim to do or if 444 00:14:20.770 --> 00:14:21.999 it's something that kind of just 445 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.009 naturally comes out of the 446 00:14:24.010 --> 00:14:25.929 larger goals that you've got in your 447 00:14:25.930 --> 00:14:26.930 criticism. 448 00:14:28.060 --> 00:14:29.060 Yeah, it's 449 00:14:30.010 --> 00:14:31.359 not a conscious thing. 450 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:33.069 I mean, I think there are useful 451 00:14:33.070 --> 00:14:35.169 neologisms and neologisms 452 00:14:35.170 --> 00:14:37.239 that require so much explaining 453 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:39.279 that they don't function 454 00:14:39.280 --> 00:14:41.379 outside of a very localized 455 00:14:41.380 --> 00:14:42.279 context. 456 00:14:42.280 --> 00:14:43.929 So it's hard to know what will gain 457 00:14:43.930 --> 00:14:45.789 purchase or traction and what won't. 458 00:14:46.990 --> 00:14:48.485 But I do think, in general, 459 00:14:50.020 --> 00:14:51.610 if you can use ordinary words 460 00:14:52.630 --> 00:14:54.879 to try to shift consciousness, 461 00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:57.369 it's much better than creating 462 00:14:57.370 --> 00:14:58.809 sort of bulky Latinate 463 00:14:59.890 --> 00:15:01.569 neologisms that need a lot of unpacking. 464 00:15:01.570 --> 00:15:03.369 And if we think of terms, I mean, 465 00:15:03.370 --> 00:15:04.809 there are terms that are 466 00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:07.209 super self-explanatory. 467 00:15:07.210 --> 00:15:09.099 Like I think environmental justice 468 00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:10.989 is quite easy to convey 469 00:15:10.990 --> 00:15:12.939 to a layperson, 470 00:15:12.940 --> 00:15:14.589 whereas there are terms I wish could 471 00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:16.289 be uninvented, like neoliberalism. 472 00:15:17.530 --> 00:15:19.419 It's bandied around a lot, and 473 00:15:19.420 --> 00:15:21.009 it's trying to communicate certain 474 00:15:21.010 --> 00:15:22.809 important things, but it's certainly 475 00:15:22.810 --> 00:15:23.980 not self-explanatory. 476 00:15:25.090 --> 00:15:26.769 Postcolonialism to a certain extent 477 00:15:26.770 --> 00:15:27.879 as well. 478 00:15:27.880 --> 00:15:28.880 So I 479 00:15:30.010 --> 00:15:32.499 love lucidity combined 480 00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:34.689 with a paradigmatic 481 00:15:34.690 --> 00:15:36.189 shift. If you can get that 482 00:15:36.190 --> 00:15:37.190 combination, 483 00:15:39.130 --> 00:15:41.259 I think that's the kind of ideal 484 00:15:41.260 --> 00:15:42.260 space. 485 00:15:42.880 --> 00:15:43.880 Yeah. 486 00:15:44.710 --> 00:15:46.779 Well, I think it seems to me like 487 00:15:46.780 --> 00:15:48.909 slow violence is a 488 00:15:48.910 --> 00:15:50.889 phrase that has been taken up fairly 489 00:15:50.890 --> 00:15:51.669 successfully. 490 00:15:51.670 --> 00:15:53.769 And it's possible, 491 00:15:53.770 --> 00:15:55.629 for example, to read articles. 492 00:15:55.630 --> 00:15:56.949 I recently read an article in The 493 00:15:56.950 --> 00:15:59.409 Guardian by Robert McFarlane about 494 00:15:59.410 --> 00:16:00.669 the-- he was writing about the 495 00:16:00.670 --> 00:16:02.559 Anthropocene, and he uses the 496 00:16:02.560 --> 00:16:04.569 phrase slow violence without quoting 497 00:16:04.570 --> 00:16:05.679 the work or anything. It seems to 498 00:16:05.680 --> 00:16:07.389 just kind of like have seeped into 499 00:16:07.390 --> 00:16:09.279 discourse about this. 500 00:16:09.280 --> 00:16:11.379 And I wonder if 501 00:16:11.380 --> 00:16:13.269 you have seen-- so it's 502 00:16:13.270 --> 00:16:14.649 been a number of years since your 503 00:16:14.650 --> 00:16:16.509 book came out and whether 504 00:16:16.510 --> 00:16:18.069 the phrase slow violence or even the 505 00:16:18.070 --> 00:16:19.569 idea of slowness itself, does it 506 00:16:19.570 --> 00:16:21.819 seem to you like it is gaining 507 00:16:21.820 --> 00:16:23.739 traction and becoming something that 508 00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:26.229 is a usable tool 509 00:16:26.230 --> 00:16:26.709 for people imagining that moment? 510 00:16:26.710 --> 00:16:27.583 Yes, definitely. 511 00:16:27.584 --> 00:16:29.679 And I've 512 00:16:29.680 --> 00:16:30.919 been surprised by that. 513 00:16:32.920 --> 00:16:34.929 There was a student who wrote 514 00:16:34.930 --> 00:16:36.909 to me from Stanford, and his father 515 00:16:36.910 --> 00:16:38.769 had been a football player, and he 516 00:16:38.770 --> 00:16:39.770 was a football player. 517 00:16:40.810 --> 00:16:42.789 And he was doing his thesis 518 00:16:42.790 --> 00:16:44.619 on slow violence and 519 00:16:44.620 --> 00:16:45.939 head injuries. 520 00:16:45.940 --> 00:16:46.940 And the fact that 521 00:16:47.980 --> 00:16:49.839 there wasn't a dramatic call 522 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:51.699 to the damage, but the damage was 523 00:16:51.700 --> 00:16:52.700 cumulative attrition and 524 00:16:53.590 --> 00:16:55.869 not really counted as violence, or 525 00:16:55.870 --> 00:16:58.899 it wasn't counted as brutal. 526 00:16:58.900 --> 00:17:00.969 And so he had this familial history 527 00:17:00.970 --> 00:17:02.899 of brain damage that he was 528 00:17:02.900 --> 00:17:04.009 trying to speak to. 529 00:17:04.010 --> 00:17:05.989 And he just said he found that 530 00:17:05.990 --> 00:17:07.009 helpful. 531 00:17:07.010 --> 00:17:08.779 And I was especially touched by a 532 00:17:08.780 --> 00:17:10.879 woman who wrote to me from Canada 533 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.879 recently who said 534 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:14.880 she'd been 535 00:17:16.280 --> 00:17:18.348 reading this book for a cause, and 536 00:17:18.349 --> 00:17:19.368 she'd been in an abusive 537 00:17:19.369 --> 00:17:20.659 relationship and 538 00:17:22.609 --> 00:17:23.598 had been afraid to leave a 539 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:25.608 relationship because she had 540 00:17:25.609 --> 00:17:26.929 two kids. 541 00:17:26.930 --> 00:17:28.759 And then, in the course of 542 00:17:28.760 --> 00:17:30.679 reading this book, she had 543 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.259 realized that she had a vocabulary 544 00:17:33.260 --> 00:17:35.449 for talking about domestic 545 00:17:35.450 --> 00:17:37.069 abuse that she couldn't quite 546 00:17:37.070 --> 00:17:38.959 pinpoint in terms 547 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:41.689 of broken bones or 548 00:17:41.690 --> 00:17:43.879 overt brutalization, but 549 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:45.829 that the incremental brutalization 550 00:17:45.830 --> 00:17:46.759 was such. 551 00:17:46.760 --> 00:17:48.589 So, I mean, the fact she 552 00:17:48.590 --> 00:17:50.569 left the relationship and finds 553 00:17:50.570 --> 00:17:52.309 herself in a better space is due 554 00:17:52.310 --> 00:17:53.899 almost entirely to her courage. 555 00:17:53.900 --> 00:17:55.819 But I felt 556 00:17:55.820 --> 00:17:58.279 gratified that the language 557 00:17:58.280 --> 00:18:00.319 resonated in an unexpected 558 00:18:00.320 --> 00:18:01.519 way. 559 00:18:01.520 --> 00:18:02.520 Yeah. 560 00:18:03.140 --> 00:18:05.309 Well, also thinking about 561 00:18:05.310 --> 00:18:07.879 this idea of 562 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:09.829 slowness is 563 00:18:09.830 --> 00:18:11.959 one of the spaces in your work 564 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:13.339 where I see kind of opportunities 565 00:18:13.340 --> 00:18:15.049 for the tools of the humanities to 566 00:18:15.050 --> 00:18:16.489 be an important-- make an important 567 00:18:16.490 --> 00:18:17.704 contribution to our discussions. 568 00:18:17.705 --> 00:18:18.705 Having 569 00:18:19.820 --> 00:18:21.109 to do with attention to language, 570 00:18:21.110 --> 00:18:22.339 having to do with awareness of 571 00:18:22.340 --> 00:18:24.199 history, the 572 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:25.669 kind of patient elaboration, I 573 00:18:25.670 --> 00:18:27.409 suppose, of issues and problems and 574 00:18:27.410 --> 00:18:28.410 things like that. I wonder, and this 575 00:18:30.170 --> 00:18:31.909 could be a naive question, but if 576 00:18:31.910 --> 00:18:32.910 there is a 577 00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:36.859 greater sense of awareness about 578 00:18:36.860 --> 00:18:38.779 the relevance 579 00:18:38.780 --> 00:18:40.999 of, let's say slow violence. 580 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:43.039 Is there greater opportunities 581 00:18:43.040 --> 00:18:45.229 for the humanities also 582 00:18:45.230 --> 00:18:46.759 attendant to that to kind of be a 583 00:18:46.760 --> 00:18:48.349 part of these discussions? 584 00:18:48.350 --> 00:18:50.839 Yeah, I think very much so. 585 00:18:50.840 --> 00:18:53.059 And by humanities, 586 00:18:53.060 --> 00:18:54.169 I include the arts. 587 00:18:54.170 --> 00:18:55.170 And so, I was 588 00:18:57.550 --> 00:18:58.550 recently teaching 589 00:18:59.540 --> 00:19:02.299 Jeff Orlowski's movie Chasing 590 00:19:02.300 --> 00:19:03.300 Ice with 591 00:19:05.540 --> 00:19:08.389 photographic attempts to use 592 00:19:08.390 --> 00:19:10.669 very sophisticated technologies 593 00:19:10.670 --> 00:19:12.529 to dramatize 594 00:19:12.530 --> 00:19:14.119 something like glacial retreat. 595 00:19:14.120 --> 00:19:16.639 So some of what's available now 596 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.379 in technological terms was simply 597 00:19:18.380 --> 00:19:20.329 not possible before in terms 598 00:19:20.330 --> 00:19:21.330 of 599 00:19:22.940 --> 00:19:25.519 slow-motion footage, and 600 00:19:25.520 --> 00:19:26.680 just the engineering 601 00:19:29.690 --> 00:19:31.609 side of it can help the 602 00:19:31.610 --> 00:19:33.319 narrative side of it. 603 00:19:33.320 --> 00:19:35.269 And I see a lot of those kind 604 00:19:35.270 --> 00:19:37.159 of collaborations, 605 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:38.540 even if you look at, say, 606 00:19:40.250 --> 00:19:42.469 Planet Earth 1 versus Planet Earth 607 00:19:42.470 --> 00:19:43.470 2. In Planet Earth 2, 608 00:19:44.450 --> 00:19:46.519 it's a drone-driven 609 00:19:46.520 --> 00:19:48.349 film, and you think, "Wow, 610 00:19:48.350 --> 00:19:50.359 okay." And there's a difference 611 00:19:50.360 --> 00:19:51.919 in the pacing. There's a difference 612 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:54.020 in the idea of distance. 613 00:19:55.520 --> 00:19:57.349 And so I 614 00:19:57.350 --> 00:19:58.350 think ideas 615 00:20:01.410 --> 00:20:02.410 of narrative per 616 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:05.699 se are shifting in relation to time 617 00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:07.979 and in relation to 618 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:08.759 technology. 619 00:20:08.760 --> 00:20:10.769 And so there is this paradox 620 00:20:10.770 --> 00:20:13.229 with, say, the Anthropocene 621 00:20:13.230 --> 00:20:14.849 that we are suddenly asked to think 622 00:20:14.850 --> 00:20:16.739 of ourselves as geological 623 00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:18.659 actors on this vast 624 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:21.239 stage at the same time 625 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:23.219 as we are operating 626 00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:25.379 in minuscule 627 00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:27.389 units of time, and our 628 00:20:27.390 --> 00:20:28.800 attentiveness is kind of 629 00:20:29.820 --> 00:20:31.169 fractured. 630 00:20:31.170 --> 00:20:32.969 And we have this ability to create 631 00:20:32.970 --> 00:20:34.979 like aggregate power 632 00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:36.839 in a very short space of time, 633 00:20:36.840 --> 00:20:38.249 but that part can dissipate very 634 00:20:38.250 --> 00:20:39.269 rapidly. 635 00:20:39.270 --> 00:20:41.219 And so, how do we deal 636 00:20:41.220 --> 00:20:43.139 with the narrative 637 00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:45.209 demands of something like 638 00:20:45.210 --> 00:20:47.339 glacial retreat, climate change, 639 00:20:47.340 --> 00:20:49.169 the Anthropocene 640 00:20:49.170 --> 00:20:51.839 at a time where we have all of these 641 00:20:51.840 --> 00:20:52.840 fantastic 642 00:20:53.820 --> 00:20:54.820 media platforms? But we're 643 00:20:58.500 --> 00:21:01.349 competing for 644 00:21:01.350 --> 00:21:03.149 fragments of time. 645 00:21:03.150 --> 00:21:04.150 Yeah. 646 00:21:04.560 --> 00:21:06.509 And I mean, you mentioned Edward 647 00:21:06.510 --> 00:21:08.769 Said earlier, and 648 00:21:08.770 --> 00:21:10.589 this is reminding me of kind of like 649 00:21:10.590 --> 00:21:12.479 the comment you made about kind of 650 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:13.480 like being 651 00:21:14.520 --> 00:21:16.409 canny about the ways that messages 652 00:21:16.410 --> 00:21:18.269 can get out. Right? And then, not 653 00:21:18.270 --> 00:21:19.919 necessarily giving up on complexity, 654 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:21.179 but communicating with the big 655 00:21:21.180 --> 00:21:22.180 audience. 656 00:21:22.950 --> 00:21:24.989 I want to ask you a question that 657 00:21:24.990 --> 00:21:27.569 is kind of connected, I think, to 658 00:21:27.570 --> 00:21:29.004 your mention of Said earlier. 659 00:21:29.005 --> 00:21:30.449 And it's about public intellectuals, 660 00:21:30.450 --> 00:21:32.369 which is a category that comes 661 00:21:32.370 --> 00:21:33.370 up in your work. 662 00:21:34.830 --> 00:21:36.320 One of the things I recognized 663 00:21:36.321 --> 00:21:37.321 reading 664 00:21:41.340 --> 00:21:42.509 you writing about public 665 00:21:42.510 --> 00:21:44.579 intellectuals and slow violence 666 00:21:44.580 --> 00:21:46.559 and the environmentalism of the poor 667 00:21:46.560 --> 00:21:48.389 was-- I kind of got a sense when 668 00:21:48.390 --> 00:21:50.609 you were talking about a lot of the 669 00:21:50.610 --> 00:21:52.559 writers that you were reading 670 00:21:52.560 --> 00:21:53.969 in that book. I'm thinking of 671 00:21:53.970 --> 00:21:54.809 Wangari Maathai. 672 00:21:54.810 --> 00:21:55.979 I'm thinking of June Jordan and 673 00:21:55.980 --> 00:21:57.209 Jamaica Kincaid and all the other 674 00:21:57.210 --> 00:22:00.209 authors that you read in that book. 675 00:22:00.210 --> 00:22:01.949 You mentioned, early on, that many 676 00:22:01.950 --> 00:22:03.839 of them had been the first in their 677 00:22:03.840 --> 00:22:06.299 family to go to college and 678 00:22:06.300 --> 00:22:07.979 that there's a kind of-- not only 679 00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:09.809 are they in 680 00:22:09.810 --> 00:22:11.279 their work dealing with issues of 681 00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:12.539 dislocation and things but that 682 00:22:12.540 --> 00:22:14.249 biographically, they're also dealing 683 00:22:14.250 --> 00:22:15.479 with that. 684 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:17.039 That really, for me, in a way, kind 685 00:22:17.040 --> 00:22:18.389 of made-- and you go on to talk 686 00:22:18.390 --> 00:22:19.919 about, then, that they're performing 687 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:20.737 translational work. 688 00:22:20.738 --> 00:22:21.738 And 689 00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:25.829 that, to me, it 690 00:22:25.830 --> 00:22:27.209 sort of crystallized, I think, the 691 00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:28.859 idea of the public intellectual as 692 00:22:28.860 --> 00:22:30.329 engaged in this kind of not just 693 00:22:30.330 --> 00:22:31.799 translation but a kind of a struggle 694 00:22:31.800 --> 00:22:33.749 and kind of inventing community and 695 00:22:33.750 --> 00:22:35.339 being forced to invent that sense of 696 00:22:35.340 --> 00:22:37.349 community as part of 697 00:22:37.350 --> 00:22:38.819 what they're doing all the time. 698 00:22:38.820 --> 00:22:39.820 And 699 00:22:41.350 --> 00:22:42.299 I wonder if you can talk a little 700 00:22:42.300 --> 00:22:43.649 bit about that and that kind of 701 00:22:43.650 --> 00:22:45.329 picture of the public intellectual 702 00:22:45.330 --> 00:22:47.279 versus something like-- it's so 703 00:22:47.280 --> 00:22:49.349 easy to find people talking 704 00:22:49.350 --> 00:22:50.639 about public intellectuals in the 705 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:52.019 sense that they would be leaders of 706 00:22:52.020 --> 00:22:53.219 certain kinds. And I think that's a 707 00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:54.869 very different picture of the role 708 00:22:54.870 --> 00:22:55.859 of a public intellectual. 709 00:22:55.860 --> 00:22:57.239 I wonder if you can say a little bit 710 00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:57.839 about that. 711 00:22:57.840 --> 00:22:59.759 Yeah. I mean, Wangari Maathai 712 00:22:59.760 --> 00:23:01.589 is a great example of 713 00:23:01.590 --> 00:23:02.910 somebody. She was the first 714 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:05.699 in her family to go to college and 715 00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:07.589 the first woman in East Africa to 716 00:23:07.590 --> 00:23:08.579 get a Ph.D. 717 00:23:08.580 --> 00:23:10.139 in the life sciences. 718 00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:11.625 She comes to America, does a degree, 719 00:23:11.626 --> 00:23:13.259 she's exposed to the civil rights 720 00:23:13.260 --> 00:23:15.419 struggle, goes back, and connects 721 00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:16.420 and creates this with 722 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:19.949 rural women like herself. 723 00:23:21.810 --> 00:23:23.219 But she's a go-between. 724 00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:25.169 And ultimately, the Green Belt 725 00:23:25.170 --> 00:23:27.089 movement planted something like 726 00:23:27.090 --> 00:23:28.109 30 million trees. 727 00:23:28.110 --> 00:23:30.509 I mean, enormous success. 728 00:23:30.510 --> 00:23:32.729 But she was able to perform 729 00:23:32.730 --> 00:23:34.109 different selves for different 730 00:23:34.110 --> 00:23:35.279 audiences. 731 00:23:35.280 --> 00:23:37.169 And when you emigrate or when you 732 00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:39.059 migrate across classes or 733 00:23:39.060 --> 00:23:41.519 identities, you 734 00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:43.949 have a repertoire of selves. 735 00:23:43.950 --> 00:23:46.169 And it's not a question of integrity 736 00:23:46.170 --> 00:23:47.669 or not having integrity. 737 00:23:47.670 --> 00:23:50.189 It's a question of actually 738 00:23:50.190 --> 00:23:51.569 performing certain features of 739 00:23:51.570 --> 00:23:53.519 yourself that allow you to 740 00:23:53.520 --> 00:23:54.779 connect with that audience. 741 00:23:54.780 --> 00:23:57.119 And so if you survived 742 00:23:57.120 --> 00:24:00.149 that upheaval in the chaos of 743 00:24:00.150 --> 00:24:01.919 something like immigration or being 744 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:03.839 the first generation to go 745 00:24:03.840 --> 00:24:05.699 to college, you can actually draw 746 00:24:05.700 --> 00:24:07.589 on those as resources. 747 00:24:07.590 --> 00:24:09.399 And both myself and my partner, Ann 748 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:11.284 McClintock, were 749 00:24:11.285 --> 00:24:12.419 first generation college students. 750 00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:14.309 So we were constantly 751 00:24:14.310 --> 00:24:15.989 trying to explain to our family what 752 00:24:15.990 --> 00:24:16.990 it was we did. 753 00:24:17.790 --> 00:24:19.439 And so you 754 00:24:20.490 --> 00:24:22.529 don't take for granted the idea 755 00:24:22.530 --> 00:24:24.539 that, A, you have a college 756 00:24:24.540 --> 00:24:26.609 education and, B, 757 00:24:26.610 --> 00:24:28.469 that what you're doing 758 00:24:28.470 --> 00:24:29.519 is communicable. 759 00:24:29.520 --> 00:24:31.599 And I think there's some-- maybe for 760 00:24:33.090 --> 00:24:34.529 people who are the first generation 761 00:24:34.530 --> 00:24:36.089 college, there's some familial 762 00:24:36.090 --> 00:24:38.009 pressure to be pretty simple and 763 00:24:38.010 --> 00:24:40.019 clear in your communication 764 00:24:40.020 --> 00:24:41.170 about what the hell it is you're 765 00:24:41.171 --> 00:24:42.689 doing, especially in the humanities, 766 00:24:42.690 --> 00:24:43.690 perhaps. Yeah. 767 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:45.869 Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you 768 00:24:45.870 --> 00:24:47.759 about that. I mean, the 769 00:24:47.760 --> 00:24:49.409 kind of the description you're 770 00:24:49.410 --> 00:24:50.579 making here of kind of the 771 00:24:50.580 --> 00:24:51.989 translational work reminds me so 772 00:24:51.990 --> 00:24:53.369 much of Edward Said's work. 773 00:24:53.370 --> 00:24:54.869 And it also reminds me of-- I mean, 774 00:24:54.870 --> 00:24:55.859 I really enjoyed reading-- you 775 00:24:55.860 --> 00:24:56.999 mentioned your memoir earlier, and 776 00:24:57.000 --> 00:24:58.319 that's Dream Bird. 777 00:24:58.320 --> 00:25:00.459 And I really enjoyed that a lot. 778 00:25:00.460 --> 00:25:02.049 And that's a lot of, I think, what 779 00:25:02.050 --> 00:25:03.189 you talk about there. 780 00:25:03.190 --> 00:25:04.809 I mean, it's a memoir, but it's also 781 00:25:04.810 --> 00:25:06.459 a totally fascinating book about 782 00:25:06.460 --> 00:25:08.001 ostriches, among other things. 783 00:25:08.002 --> 00:25:08.949 Among other things. 784 00:25:08.950 --> 00:25:10.269 But there's a lot of the histories 785 00:25:10.270 --> 00:25:11.270 of ostriches there. 786 00:25:12.130 --> 00:25:13.119 Yeah. Can you talk a little bit 787 00:25:13.120 --> 00:25:15.129 about or expand on 788 00:25:15.130 --> 00:25:16.359 - you already mentioned a bit - a 789 00:25:16.360 --> 00:25:18.429 little bit on some of 790 00:25:18.430 --> 00:25:20.049 the translational work that you talk 791 00:25:20.050 --> 00:25:21.009 about there and how that's been a 792 00:25:21.010 --> 00:25:22.010 part of your work? 793 00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:24.879 Well, I was very fortunate when I 794 00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:26.259 arrived in the US. 795 00:25:26.260 --> 00:25:27.549 I left South Africa as a 796 00:25:27.550 --> 00:25:28.479 conscientious objector. 797 00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:29.859 This is the end of the apartheid 798 00:25:29.860 --> 00:25:30.860 days. 799 00:25:31.630 --> 00:25:33.279 So there was a two-year call up for 800 00:25:33.280 --> 00:25:35.319 white kids after high school. 801 00:25:35.320 --> 00:25:37.269 And I put that off until after 802 00:25:37.270 --> 00:25:39.099 university. Then, I had 803 00:25:39.100 --> 00:25:40.100 to leave. 804 00:25:40.930 --> 00:25:42.025 And so I arrived 805 00:25:43.300 --> 00:25:45.249 in the middle of the anti-apartheid 806 00:25:45.250 --> 00:25:47.319 protest in the US, the boycott 807 00:25:47.320 --> 00:25:48.320 years. 808 00:25:49.330 --> 00:25:51.579 And I happened to 809 00:25:51.580 --> 00:25:53.158 write a piece for The Village Voice, 810 00:25:53.159 --> 00:25:55.329 and The Village Voice was sort of 811 00:25:55.330 --> 00:25:57.549 a very dynamic publication. 812 00:25:57.550 --> 00:25:58.809 And so I started writing for 813 00:25:58.810 --> 00:25:59.949 particularly for The Village Voice 814 00:25:59.950 --> 00:26:01.929 and The Nation as a graduate 815 00:26:01.930 --> 00:26:03.369 student. 816 00:26:03.370 --> 00:26:05.379 And that was enormously beneficial 817 00:26:05.380 --> 00:26:07.239 because I felt it was a place 818 00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:09.999 to put my political passions. 819 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:12.819 But it also allowed me to hone a 820 00:26:12.820 --> 00:26:13.820 public voice in 821 00:26:15.040 --> 00:26:17.289 a context that had a fairly high 822 00:26:17.290 --> 00:26:19.229 intellectual caliber of 823 00:26:19.230 --> 00:26:20.230 thinking. 824 00:26:21.760 --> 00:26:23.919 And that combination really 825 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:26.169 helped me a lot. 826 00:26:26.170 --> 00:26:28.149 And one 827 00:26:28.150 --> 00:26:30.249 of the things that I struggle 828 00:26:30.250 --> 00:26:32.349 with this generation of students 829 00:26:32.350 --> 00:26:33.475 is I was able to-- 830 00:26:35.080 --> 00:26:36.419 when I was a graduate student, I 831 00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:38.739 would write a 1500-word 832 00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:40.389 piece for The Voice. 833 00:26:40.390 --> 00:26:41.390 And I would get $1,000 834 00:26:42.580 --> 00:26:43.929 or something. 835 00:26:43.930 --> 00:26:45.909 And that was probably $2,000 836 00:26:45.910 --> 00:26:46.809 today. 837 00:26:46.810 --> 00:26:48.159 And it helped pay the rent and 838 00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:50.259 helped me move 839 00:26:50.260 --> 00:26:52.299 forward in my career, helped 840 00:26:52.300 --> 00:26:54.279 me reduce student debt and 841 00:26:54.280 --> 00:26:55.389 all of those things. 842 00:26:55.390 --> 00:26:57.549 And the challenge today, 843 00:26:57.550 --> 00:26:59.349 when I see students just as talented 844 00:26:59.350 --> 00:27:01.359 as I was as writers now, is 845 00:27:01.360 --> 00:27:02.207 how do you monetize that. 846 00:27:02.208 --> 00:27:04.359 There's so much content 847 00:27:04.360 --> 00:27:06.279 out there, and so much of it is 848 00:27:06.280 --> 00:27:08.409 brilliant, but 849 00:27:08.410 --> 00:27:10.809 it's not priced the way it was 850 00:27:10.810 --> 00:27:11.949 when I was starting out. 851 00:27:11.950 --> 00:27:14.379 And I feel for 852 00:27:14.380 --> 00:27:15.380 the students that 853 00:27:17.740 --> 00:27:19.059 there's kind of a volunteer 854 00:27:19.060 --> 00:27:21.549 creativity, whereas I had the 855 00:27:21.550 --> 00:27:23.379 affirmation that 856 00:27:23.380 --> 00:27:24.939 it was political, it was creative, 857 00:27:24.940 --> 00:27:26.799 and it was financially 858 00:27:26.800 --> 00:27:28.539 rewarding. And that was a real 859 00:27:28.540 --> 00:27:29.540 trifecta. 860 00:27:31.510 --> 00:27:32.349 Yeah. Well, I want to ask you one 861 00:27:32.350 --> 00:27:33.849 other question, if I could, from 862 00:27:33.850 --> 00:27:35.199 Dream Birds. 863 00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:37.075 And this is a-- 864 00:27:38.500 --> 00:27:39.339 there's - I guess I would say - a 865 00:27:39.340 --> 00:27:40.340 story that 866 00:27:41.620 --> 00:27:43.749 is in that book that 867 00:27:43.750 --> 00:27:44.589 you talk in the beginning. 868 00:27:44.590 --> 00:27:46.149 It's about your grandmother and the 869 00:27:46.150 --> 00:27:47.229 Mavis. 870 00:27:47.230 --> 00:27:49.389 The Mavis is a bird. 871 00:27:49.390 --> 00:27:51.019 I'll let you tell the story. 872 00:27:51.020 --> 00:27:52.899 But it's something that 873 00:27:52.900 --> 00:27:54.129 seems-- it seemed to me in that 874 00:27:54.130 --> 00:27:55.899 book, we talked a little bit about 875 00:27:55.900 --> 00:27:57.759 images earlier and how an image is 876 00:27:57.760 --> 00:27:58.929 kind of like being able to do 877 00:27:58.930 --> 00:27:59.799 certain things. 878 00:27:59.800 --> 00:28:00.759 And these are visual images. 879 00:28:00.760 --> 00:28:02.709 But that to me was kind of an image 880 00:28:02.710 --> 00:28:04.629 in that book that seemed to 881 00:28:04.630 --> 00:28:06.369 have so many-- seemed to be able to 882 00:28:06.370 --> 00:28:07.869 kind of crystallize or pull together 883 00:28:07.870 --> 00:28:09.069 so many of the different-- that 884 00:28:09.070 --> 00:28:10.569 story, anyway. 885 00:28:10.570 --> 00:28:12.039 It was one that pulled together so 886 00:28:12.040 --> 00:28:13.919 many of those things in that book. 887 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:14.799 I wonder if you can just say a 888 00:28:14.800 --> 00:28:16.749 little bit about that story and 889 00:28:16.750 --> 00:28:18.279 talk about that. 890 00:28:18.280 --> 00:28:20.289 As it happened, I did my early work 891 00:28:20.290 --> 00:28:22.119 on V.S. Naipaul, and I remember an 892 00:28:22.120 --> 00:28:24.249 essay he wrote called Jasmine 893 00:28:24.250 --> 00:28:26.499 where he talked about 894 00:28:26.500 --> 00:28:28.029 having read about Jasmine in the 895 00:28:28.030 --> 00:28:29.799 book and not realizing that the 896 00:28:29.800 --> 00:28:31.509 flower that he smelled, this 897 00:28:31.510 --> 00:28:33.369 overwhelming, 898 00:28:33.370 --> 00:28:35.349 deep, powerful smell 899 00:28:35.350 --> 00:28:38.079 that he smelled every day 900 00:28:38.080 --> 00:28:40.029 on the island was connected to that 901 00:28:40.030 --> 00:28:42.009 word. And there was a book word, 902 00:28:42.010 --> 00:28:44.649 and there was a smell, and 903 00:28:44.650 --> 00:28:47.319 that he didn't expect to have 904 00:28:47.320 --> 00:28:49.057 the objects in his everyday world, 905 00:28:50.080 --> 00:28:51.669 coming from the Caribbean, reflected 906 00:28:51.670 --> 00:28:53.379 in literature, which always seemed 907 00:28:53.380 --> 00:28:54.969 to come from elsewhere. 908 00:28:54.970 --> 00:28:56.199 And so I grew up in an unusual 909 00:28:56.200 --> 00:28:58.209 family, which there were nine 910 00:28:58.210 --> 00:29:00.039 of us and four generations under one 911 00:29:00.040 --> 00:29:00.849 roof. 912 00:29:00.850 --> 00:29:02.079 And my great grandfather and 913 00:29:02.080 --> 00:29:04.390 grandmother had grown up in Scotland 914 00:29:05.830 --> 00:29:08.199 before moving to South Africa. 915 00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:10.029 And so my grandmother would often 916 00:29:10.030 --> 00:29:10.923 reminisce about Scotland. 917 00:29:10.924 --> 00:29:12.849 And she said, before she died, 918 00:29:12.850 --> 00:29:14.079 one of the things she really wanted 919 00:29:14.080 --> 00:29:17.029 was to hear the Mavis sing. 920 00:29:17.030 --> 00:29:18.339 She used to hear the Mavis sing on 921 00:29:18.340 --> 00:29:19.989 the way to school, and nobody could 922 00:29:19.990 --> 00:29:22.509 find out what this Mavis thing was. 923 00:29:22.510 --> 00:29:23.769 She didn't know. That was the only 924 00:29:23.770 --> 00:29:24.489 word she knew. 925 00:29:24.490 --> 00:29:25.779 And other friends you knew who knew 926 00:29:25.780 --> 00:29:26.780 a lot about birds. 927 00:29:28.930 --> 00:29:30.879 I tried looking it up and so forth. 928 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:32.799 And then I was doing 929 00:29:32.800 --> 00:29:34.119 some research in the British Museum 930 00:29:34.120 --> 00:29:35.349 in London at the time, and we were 931 00:29:35.350 --> 00:29:38.049 living in North London. 932 00:29:38.050 --> 00:29:40.059 And I happened 933 00:29:40.060 --> 00:29:42.219 to come across this word, Mavis, 934 00:29:42.220 --> 00:29:44.289 and it was the song 935 00:29:44.290 --> 00:29:45.459 thrush. 936 00:29:45.460 --> 00:29:47.559 And I walked home that 937 00:29:47.560 --> 00:29:49.539 evening from the tube across 938 00:29:49.540 --> 00:29:51.249 the lawns, and there these song 939 00:29:51.250 --> 00:29:52.419 thrushes were singing. 940 00:29:52.420 --> 00:29:55.749 And it was this incredible sense of 941 00:29:55.750 --> 00:29:57.789 just completing the loop 942 00:29:57.790 --> 00:29:59.369 of a story. 943 00:29:59.370 --> 00:30:00.370 There she was, 80 944 00:30:01.260 --> 00:30:03.389 years before, as a schoolgirl 945 00:30:03.390 --> 00:30:04.709 walking to school in Scotland, 946 00:30:04.710 --> 00:30:06.209 listening to this noise, to the 947 00:30:06.210 --> 00:30:08.159 sound. And here 948 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:09.160 I was. She 949 00:30:10.050 --> 00:30:11.050 had died in the meantime. Having 950 00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:14.099 this avenue, this very, very 951 00:30:14.100 --> 00:30:16.019 personal avenue into this 952 00:30:16.020 --> 00:30:17.939 bird song, once the 953 00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:19.769 meaning of the word Mavis had 954 00:30:19.770 --> 00:30:20.599 been released. 955 00:30:20.600 --> 00:30:21.389 Yeah. 956 00:30:21.390 --> 00:30:23.639 And it seemed to me to 957 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:25.289 say a lot about things that you're 958 00:30:25.290 --> 00:30:26.489 concerned with in that book, in your 959 00:30:26.490 --> 00:30:27.659 memoir, but also throughout your 960 00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:28.660 work about 961 00:30:29.550 --> 00:30:31.679 the really complicated relationships 962 00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:33.509 that humans have with the 963 00:30:33.510 --> 00:30:35.489 natural world around them and 964 00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:36.899 that it's not necessarily just one 965 00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:38.069 of appreciation, that it's one 966 00:30:38.070 --> 00:30:39.989 sometimes where nature is something 967 00:30:39.990 --> 00:30:41.819 that humans can kind of project 968 00:30:41.820 --> 00:30:43.829 dreams on. And dreams, 969 00:30:43.830 --> 00:30:44.969 desires, things like that. 970 00:30:44.970 --> 00:30:46.799 And that there's so much more to 971 00:30:46.800 --> 00:30:48.689 it than the times it gets written 972 00:30:48.690 --> 00:30:49.379 about. 973 00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:50.380 Absolutely. 974 00:30:51.630 --> 00:30:52.630 And I think that 975 00:30:53.490 --> 00:30:55.079 connects with the issue of 976 00:30:55.080 --> 00:30:57.089 translating science into the public 977 00:30:57.090 --> 00:30:58.589 realm as well. 978 00:30:58.590 --> 00:31:00.719 That you can have ecosystem 979 00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:03.089 science that looks at 980 00:31:03.090 --> 00:31:05.369 whether it's a functioning 981 00:31:05.370 --> 00:31:07.289 ecosystem or not or 982 00:31:07.290 --> 00:31:09.149 a compromised ecosystem. 983 00:31:09.150 --> 00:31:11.159 And so you have scientists 984 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:12.569 talk about, say, a functional 985 00:31:12.570 --> 00:31:14.699 analogue in an ecosystem, 986 00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:16.829 which would be, say, an apex 987 00:31:16.830 --> 00:31:18.329 predator. So when an apex predator 988 00:31:18.330 --> 00:31:19.919 is removed, but you bring in another 989 00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:21.869 apex predator that forms 990 00:31:21.870 --> 00:31:23.969 a similar function. 991 00:31:23.970 --> 00:31:25.349 But if we're talking about, say, an 992 00:31:25.350 --> 00:31:26.730 apex predator like a wolf, 993 00:31:27.840 --> 00:31:29.178 you put a wolf in a story, and 994 00:31:30.300 --> 00:31:32.189 it's got an incredible heritage, 995 00:31:32.190 --> 00:31:33.239 positive and negative. 996 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:35.489 Like everybody has 997 00:31:35.490 --> 00:31:37.439 feelings about wolves, even people 998 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:39.179 who haven't seen them. 999 00:31:39.180 --> 00:31:40.589 So if we talk about the wolf as a 1000 00:31:40.590 --> 00:31:42.449 functional analogue, we're talking 1001 00:31:42.450 --> 00:31:43.499 one kind of a register. 1002 00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:45.239 If we're talking about it as a wolf, 1003 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:47.669 whether it's replaced or not, 1004 00:31:47.670 --> 00:31:49.470 it has an enormous 1005 00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:51.640 cultural energy. 1006 00:31:52.560 --> 00:31:54.569 And so I think that's 1007 00:31:54.570 --> 00:31:56.189 part of where the environmental 1008 00:31:56.190 --> 00:31:57.688 humanities and arts come in is how 1009 00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:00.940 do we understand 1010 00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:05.219 the science, learn the science, 1011 00:32:05.220 --> 00:32:07.649 and then think about 1012 00:32:07.650 --> 00:32:09.629 the implications of communicating 1013 00:32:09.630 --> 00:32:11.729 the science in this kind of image 1014 00:32:11.730 --> 00:32:13.559 or that kind of story or that kind 1015 00:32:13.560 --> 00:32:15.779 of figure of speech. 1016 00:32:15.780 --> 00:32:17.759 Yeah. And not 1017 00:32:17.760 --> 00:32:19.679 only that, but your work, it seems 1018 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:20.819 like one of the things that 1019 00:32:21.990 --> 00:32:23.909 is so important to you is to try 1020 00:32:23.910 --> 00:32:25.949 to harness that, understand it, and 1021 00:32:25.950 --> 00:32:27.869 kind of like move us towards 1022 00:32:27.870 --> 00:32:28.870 a-- 1023 00:32:29.820 --> 00:32:31.709 move us towards a world 1024 00:32:31.710 --> 00:32:32.999 that is more characterized by 1025 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:34.679 participatory democracy, perhaps, 1026 00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:35.639 than the one that we're currently in. 1027 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:37.709 Absolutely. And I think one of the 1028 00:32:37.710 --> 00:32:39.179 very encouraging things about 1029 00:32:39.180 --> 00:32:41.549 environmental studies 1030 00:32:41.550 --> 00:32:43.079 today, in particularly the 1031 00:32:43.080 --> 00:32:45.029 humanities, is 1032 00:32:45.030 --> 00:32:47.039 there was a perception that 1033 00:32:47.040 --> 00:32:49.109 environmentalism at one point 1034 00:32:49.110 --> 00:32:50.388 was not kind of real politics. 1035 00:32:50.389 --> 00:32:52.799 And it was very much-- 1036 00:32:52.800 --> 00:32:54.719 it emanated from a kind 1037 00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:56.939 of American studies and 1038 00:32:56.940 --> 00:32:58.229 was wilderness-focused. 1039 00:32:58.230 --> 00:33:00.149 There was a component of 1040 00:33:00.150 --> 00:33:02.219 that was sort of anti-human 1041 00:33:02.220 --> 00:33:04.049 environmentalism. It was going 1042 00:33:04.050 --> 00:33:05.039 back to the seventies. 1043 00:33:05.040 --> 00:33:06.509 And that's not the complete story by 1044 00:33:06.510 --> 00:33:08.639 any means, but there was a strong 1045 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:10.469 strain of that and an 1046 00:33:10.470 --> 00:33:12.719 idea that this message 1047 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:14.699 needed to be communicated 1048 00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:16.199 to poorer people and people 1049 00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:16.979 elsewhere in the world. 1050 00:33:16.980 --> 00:33:19.229 And I think what has shifted now, 1051 00:33:19.230 --> 00:33:20.579 and this is partly due to 1052 00:33:20.580 --> 00:33:22.559 environmental justice coming front 1053 00:33:22.560 --> 00:33:23.560 and center, 1054 00:33:24.660 --> 00:33:26.369 is that we understand multiple 1055 00:33:26.370 --> 00:33:28.619 genealogies of environmentalism. 1056 00:33:28.620 --> 00:33:30.449 And so, if we 1057 00:33:30.450 --> 00:33:32.609 think of the tree huggers in 1058 00:33:32.610 --> 00:33:34.619 the Chipko Forest in India 1059 00:33:34.620 --> 00:33:36.480 in the 1970s, these were 1060 00:33:37.620 --> 00:33:39.929 villages who had depended on the 1061 00:33:39.930 --> 00:33:42.239 forest for firewood, 1062 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:43.889 for the protection of their water, 1063 00:33:43.890 --> 00:33:45.539 for food. 1064 00:33:45.540 --> 00:33:46.919 And the government then said, "We've 1065 00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:48.989 sold this off to 1066 00:33:48.990 --> 00:33:50.309 a sports company." I think it was a 1067 00:33:50.310 --> 00:33:52.229 cricket bat company or something. 1068 00:33:52.230 --> 00:33:54.089 And they found these people arriving 1069 00:33:54.090 --> 00:33:55.919 claiming that they owned the forest, 1070 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:57.209 whereas they felt that spiritual 1071 00:33:57.210 --> 00:33:58.319 ownership of it. 1072 00:33:58.320 --> 00:34:00.359 They formed these chains 1073 00:34:00.360 --> 00:34:02.219 around the trees. And that's our 1074 00:34:02.220 --> 00:34:03.411 earliest record of tree-hugging. 1075 00:34:03.412 --> 00:34:05.239 So we might be 1076 00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:07.289 associated with Humboldt County, 1077 00:34:07.290 --> 00:34:08.789 but there are there are many, many 1078 00:34:08.790 --> 00:34:10.019 starting places for these. 1079 00:34:10.020 --> 00:34:12.629 And every community 1080 00:34:12.630 --> 00:34:15.119 has its own 1081 00:34:15.120 --> 00:34:17.099 place of purchase in 1082 00:34:17.100 --> 00:34:18.359 the environmental world. 1083 00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:20.249 And if we listen to those and 1084 00:34:20.250 --> 00:34:22.109 we respect those, I think we 1085 00:34:22.110 --> 00:34:24.059 have a much better chance 1086 00:34:24.060 --> 00:34:25.289 of actually 1087 00:34:26.610 --> 00:34:28.439 preserving what we value 1088 00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:30.269 and adapting to what we 1089 00:34:30.270 --> 00:34:31.270 cannot change. 1090 00:34:33.250 --> 00:34:34.349 Yeah. Well, Rob Nixon, thanks so 1091 00:34:34.350 --> 00:34:35.158 much for joining us. 1092 00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:36.159 Thank you, Dan. 1093 00:34:37.909 --> 00:34:39.198 That's it for this edition of Being 1094 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:40.009 Human. 1095 00:34:40.010 --> 00:34:41.539 This episode was produced by 1096 00:34:41.540 --> 00:34:42.738 Christian Snyder, Humanities Media 1097 00:34:42.739 --> 00:34:43.698 Fellow at the University of 1098 00:34:43.699 --> 00:34:44.599 Pittsburgh. 1099 00:34:44.600 --> 00:34:45.979 Stay tuned next time when my guest 1100 00:34:45.980 --> 00:34:47.569 will be Robin Bernstein, Professor 1101 00:34:47.570 --> 00:34:48.948 of African and African American 1102 00:34:48.949 --> 00:34:50.809 Studies at Harvard University. 1103 00:34:50.810 --> 00:34:51.810 Thanks for listening.
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