WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.700 --> 00:00:07.929 Hello and welcome to the latest 2 00:00:07.930 --> 00:00:09.189 installment of Being Human from the 3 00:00:09.190 --> 00:00:10.869 University of Pittsburgh. 4 00:00:10.870 --> 00:00:12.519 This series is devoted to exploring 5 00:00:12.520 --> 00:00:14.169 the humanities, their connections to 6 00:00:14.170 --> 00:00:15.699 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:15.700 --> 00:00:17.049 in the public world. 8 00:00:17.050 --> 00:00:18.729 I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of 9 00:00:18.730 --> 00:00:20.409 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:20.410 --> 00:00:22.342 My guest today is Anne 11 00:00:22.343 --> 00:00:23.409 Knowledge, McBride Professor of History 12 00:00:23.410 --> 00:00:24.460 at the University of Maine. 13 00:00:26.080 --> 00:00:27.099 Professor Knowles is one of the 14 00:00:27.100 --> 00:00:28.329 country's leading scholars of 15 00:00:28.330 --> 00:00:29.949 historical geographic information 16 00:00:29.950 --> 00:00:31.989 systems, or GIS, which 17 00:00:31.990 --> 00:00:34.059 allow a user to gather, organize, 18 00:00:34.060 --> 00:00:35.799 and evaluate historical information 19 00:00:35.800 --> 00:00:37.629 related to space. 20 00:00:37.630 --> 00:00:39.249 Professor Knowles has used the GIS 21 00:00:39.250 --> 00:00:40.779 to examine a range of historical 22 00:00:40.780 --> 00:00:42.519 events and phenomena, including the 23 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:44.319 Battle of Gettysburg, the American 24 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:46.839 Iron Industry, and the Holocaust. 25 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:48.339 In the process, she's brought new 26 00:00:48.340 --> 00:00:49.719 insight to our understandings of 27 00:00:49.720 --> 00:00:51.339 these events and to our use of 28 00:00:51.340 --> 00:00:52.780 digital tools in the humanities. 29 00:00:53.950 --> 00:00:55.419 Because so many modern GIS 30 00:00:55.420 --> 00:00:57.309 technologies are digital, Professor 31 00:00:57.310 --> 00:00:58.629 Knowles inevitably confronts 32 00:00:58.630 --> 00:01:00.249 questions about how digital tools 33 00:01:00.250 --> 00:01:01.629 can capture the richness and 34 00:01:01.630 --> 00:01:04.149 complexity of human experience. 35 00:01:04.150 --> 00:01:05.619 She responds to these questions in a 36 00:01:05.620 --> 00:01:07.119 few different ways. 37 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:08.799 The first is by expanding the range 38 00:01:08.800 --> 00:01:10.269 of materials she works with. 39 00:01:10.270 --> 00:01:11.649 For example, in her newest work, 40 00:01:11.650 --> 00:01:13.389 using digital tools to analyze the 41 00:01:13.390 --> 00:01:15.039 ways that space is represented in 42 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:17.499 Holocaust survivor testimony. 43 00:01:17.500 --> 00:01:18.879 The second is by reflecting on her 44 00:01:18.880 --> 00:01:20.499 work with digital technology and 45 00:01:20.500 --> 00:01:21.849 emphasizing the human elements 46 00:01:21.850 --> 00:01:23.589 involved in it, such as the patience 47 00:01:23.590 --> 00:01:25.509 required to translate data, 48 00:01:25.510 --> 00:01:26.589 the willingness to accept 49 00:01:26.590 --> 00:01:28.539 uncertainty in that translation, and 50 00:01:28.540 --> 00:01:29.889 the collaboration the GIS 51 00:01:29.890 --> 00:01:30.890 encourages. 52 00:01:31.870 --> 00:01:33.609 And a third is by using manual or 53 00:01:33.610 --> 00:01:35.049 other technologies when digital 54 00:01:35.050 --> 00:01:36.789 tools can't adequately represent the 55 00:01:36.790 --> 00:01:38.769 history she studies, a process 56 00:01:38.770 --> 00:01:41.259 she calls inductive visualization. 57 00:01:41.260 --> 00:01:42.549 As you'll hear in our discussion, 58 00:01:42.550 --> 00:01:44.469 map-making for Professor Knowles 59 00:01:44.470 --> 00:01:46.299 sounds a lot more like an art than 60 00:01:46.300 --> 00:01:48.159 an exact science. 61 00:01:48.160 --> 00:01:49.389 I began my conversation with 62 00:01:49.390 --> 00:01:50.739 Professor Knowles by asking her 63 00:01:50.740 --> 00:01:52.389 about her love of maps and the 64 00:01:52.390 --> 00:01:53.979 discovery that led to her career as 65 00:01:53.980 --> 00:01:54.980 an academic. 66 00:01:57.340 --> 00:01:59.589 What happened was that I was working 67 00:01:59.590 --> 00:02:01.509 for a textbook publisher 68 00:02:01.510 --> 00:02:03.609 in Chicago and got 69 00:02:03.610 --> 00:02:05.739 a really choice assignment of 70 00:02:05.740 --> 00:02:07.539 editing a brand new edition of an 71 00:02:07.540 --> 00:02:09.969 American history textbook. 72 00:02:09.970 --> 00:02:11.109 And the thing that was going to 73 00:02:11.110 --> 00:02:12.309 distinguish this book in the 74 00:02:12.310 --> 00:02:14.049 marketplace was that it was going to 75 00:02:14.050 --> 00:02:15.999 include over 100 original 76 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:18.129 maps to tell 77 00:02:18.130 --> 00:02:19.130 American history cartographically. 78 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:23.109 The man who was in charge of 79 00:02:23.110 --> 00:02:24.999 that part of the book development 80 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:26.919 was Michael Conzen, an historical 81 00:02:26.920 --> 00:02:28.329 geographer at the University of 82 00:02:28.330 --> 00:02:29.529 Chicago. 83 00:02:29.530 --> 00:02:31.509 And I spent nine months 84 00:02:31.510 --> 00:02:33.819 with him, basically having weekly 85 00:02:33.820 --> 00:02:35.739 tutorials in how to 86 00:02:35.740 --> 00:02:37.809 map American history. 87 00:02:37.810 --> 00:02:39.729 It made history vivid 88 00:02:39.730 --> 00:02:41.559 for me in a way I'd never 89 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:42.789 seen it before. 90 00:02:42.790 --> 00:02:44.229 I'd traveled as a kid with my 91 00:02:44.230 --> 00:02:46.329 family. My dad loved history, 92 00:02:46.330 --> 00:02:48.009 and we'd see historic sites. 93 00:02:48.010 --> 00:02:49.809 But when you see it through maps, 94 00:02:49.810 --> 00:02:51.669 you get a much richer sense, 95 00:02:51.670 --> 00:02:54.099 I think, of the context of history. 96 00:02:54.100 --> 00:02:55.269 Where are things happening? 97 00:02:55.270 --> 00:02:56.439 Where are they not? 98 00:02:56.440 --> 00:02:58.329 What is the sequence of events? 99 00:02:58.330 --> 00:03:00.279 How important was physical geography 100 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:02.649 like rivers and mountains in shaping 101 00:03:02.650 --> 00:03:04.029 where people settled when in the 102 00:03:04.030 --> 00:03:05.559 conduct of war and all kinds of 103 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:06.399 things? 104 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:08.679 So I became terribly excited. 105 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:09.999 And at the end of the project, when 106 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:11.919 the book was published, I literally 107 00:03:11.920 --> 00:03:13.569 said to Michael, "How can I keep 108 00:03:13.570 --> 00:03:15.519 doing this?" And he said, 109 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:17.319 "You go to graduate school in 110 00:03:17.320 --> 00:03:19.179 historical geography." So 111 00:03:19.180 --> 00:03:21.099 I feel like I was born again 112 00:03:21.100 --> 00:03:23.079 at the age of 30 as a historical 113 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:25.029 geographer, and I'm still 114 00:03:25.030 --> 00:03:26.949 as much in love with it now as 115 00:03:26.950 --> 00:03:28.659 I was then. It's endlessly 116 00:03:28.660 --> 00:03:30.579 interesting to me because every 117 00:03:30.580 --> 00:03:32.259 part of history takes place 118 00:03:32.260 --> 00:03:33.339 somewhere. 119 00:03:33.340 --> 00:03:35.319 And once you begin to recognize 120 00:03:35.320 --> 00:03:37.389 how important places are in people's 121 00:03:37.390 --> 00:03:39.339 lives, then 122 00:03:39.340 --> 00:03:41.409 just every day walks through 123 00:03:41.410 --> 00:03:42.669 a neighborhood make you think 124 00:03:42.670 --> 00:03:43.449 historically. 125 00:03:43.450 --> 00:03:43.959 I just love it. 126 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:45.819 Yeah. So I 127 00:03:45.820 --> 00:03:46.809 want to talk with you a little bit 128 00:03:46.810 --> 00:03:49.359 about some of the projects. 129 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:50.409 And your most recent project 130 00:03:50.410 --> 00:03:52.599 involves geography and Holocaust 131 00:03:52.600 --> 00:03:53.979 studies. 132 00:03:53.980 --> 00:03:55.329 But I wonder if you can start just 133 00:03:55.330 --> 00:03:56.199 by talking a little bit about-- 134 00:03:56.200 --> 00:03:58.029 because you published too on the 135 00:03:58.030 --> 00:03:59.199 history of the iron industry. 136 00:03:59.200 --> 00:04:01.569 Can you talk a little bit about how 137 00:04:01.570 --> 00:04:02.829 kind of that interest that you just 138 00:04:02.830 --> 00:04:04.509 talked about in geography and place 139 00:04:04.510 --> 00:04:06.429 shaped that research that 140 00:04:06.430 --> 00:04:07.569 you did in the two books that you've 141 00:04:07.570 --> 00:04:08.799 published on the history of the iron 142 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:09.219 industry? 143 00:04:09.220 --> 00:04:10.539 Yeah, that's a great question 144 00:04:10.540 --> 00:04:12.489 because actually walking through 145 00:04:12.490 --> 00:04:14.199 the landscape has always been 146 00:04:14.200 --> 00:04:16.359 crucial for my historical 147 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:17.799 imagination. 148 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:20.169 My first book out of my 149 00:04:20.170 --> 00:04:21.909 Ph.D. was about Welsh immigrants to 150 00:04:21.910 --> 00:04:24.039 the U.S., specifically southern 151 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:25.959 Ohio, a part of the country 152 00:04:25.960 --> 00:04:27.279 that people in Pittsburgh will know 153 00:04:27.280 --> 00:04:29.199 well, a little town called 154 00:04:29.200 --> 00:04:30.159 Oak Hill. 155 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:32.319 And the Welsh settlers 156 00:04:32.320 --> 00:04:34.829 who went there were farmers, 157 00:04:34.830 --> 00:04:36.669 but it was an iron-making 158 00:04:36.670 --> 00:04:38.049 region. They were in the middle of 159 00:04:38.050 --> 00:04:40.179 the Hanging Rock Iron Region. 160 00:04:40.180 --> 00:04:41.439 So I learned a little bit about the 161 00:04:41.440 --> 00:04:43.179 iron industry and found out that 162 00:04:43.180 --> 00:04:45.369 Welsh immigrants were especially 163 00:04:45.370 --> 00:04:47.319 important because they 164 00:04:47.320 --> 00:04:49.569 had great skills in South Wales 165 00:04:49.570 --> 00:04:51.669 and places like Cardiff and Merthyr 166 00:04:51.670 --> 00:04:53.109 Tydfil that were valuable to 167 00:04:53.110 --> 00:04:54.699 American businessmen. 168 00:04:54.700 --> 00:04:56.799 So I decided I'd look into it more 169 00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:59.259 and the first thing I did was 170 00:04:59.260 --> 00:05:01.119 walk around with my 171 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:03.159 friend Mike Struble in 172 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:05.749 the woods of southern Ohio, looking 173 00:05:05.750 --> 00:05:08.179 at old blast furnaces. 174 00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:09.799 And some people might think, "Oh, my 175 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:11.029 God, that's so boring. 176 00:05:11.030 --> 00:05:12.829 Iron. What could be more dull than 177 00:05:12.830 --> 00:05:14.959 that?" But these furnaces 178 00:05:14.960 --> 00:05:17.479 are like pharaonic temples 179 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:19.459 made of massive stone blocks. 180 00:05:19.460 --> 00:05:21.799 They stand about 60 feet tall 181 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:23.629 in the wilderness. 182 00:05:23.630 --> 00:05:25.279 And you think, "How in heaven's did 183 00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:26.569 this get here? 184 00:05:26.570 --> 00:05:28.669 What is this thing?" And 185 00:05:28.670 --> 00:05:29.779 that was the beginning of my 186 00:05:29.780 --> 00:05:31.219 fascination. 187 00:05:31.220 --> 00:05:32.899 Of course, you can't study the iron 188 00:05:32.900 --> 00:05:33.859 industry without coming to 189 00:05:33.860 --> 00:05:35.389 Pittsburgh. I spent a lot of time at 190 00:05:35.390 --> 00:05:36.589 the Heinz Center looking at 191 00:05:36.590 --> 00:05:38.419 manuscripts, but all the 192 00:05:38.420 --> 00:05:40.309 time, I was coming back to 193 00:05:40.310 --> 00:05:42.499 the geographical question 194 00:05:42.500 --> 00:05:44.389 of where was the iron industry. 195 00:05:44.390 --> 00:05:47.149 How did it shape local economies? 196 00:05:47.150 --> 00:05:49.099 Who settled in a particular 197 00:05:49.100 --> 00:05:50.509 iron town? 198 00:05:50.510 --> 00:05:52.429 What were their lives like? 199 00:05:52.430 --> 00:05:54.019 So it's a kind of moving back and 200 00:05:54.020 --> 00:05:55.549 forth between history and the 201 00:05:55.550 --> 00:05:58.879 landscape for me that makes 202 00:05:58.880 --> 00:06:00.319 the history of the iron industry, or 203 00:06:00.320 --> 00:06:01.759 really anything else, a sort of 204 00:06:01.760 --> 00:06:02.760 human story. 205 00:06:03.440 --> 00:06:05.449 Yeah. Well, I want to maybe stay 206 00:06:05.450 --> 00:06:06.529 with this question about place and 207 00:06:06.530 --> 00:06:08.539 geography for just a second 208 00:06:08.540 --> 00:06:10.189 because when one of the things that 209 00:06:10.190 --> 00:06:11.359 you've written about in your most 210 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:13.189 recent project on the Holocaust 211 00:06:13.190 --> 00:06:15.019 studies and geography, you talked 212 00:06:15.020 --> 00:06:17.329 about geography, a place not playing 213 00:06:17.330 --> 00:06:18.919 as big a role in Holocaust studies 214 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:20.539 before 2010 as plenty of other 215 00:06:20.540 --> 00:06:21.769 disciplines, even though the field 216 00:06:21.770 --> 00:06:23.209 of Holocaust studies was decades old 217 00:06:23.210 --> 00:06:24.469 at that point. 218 00:06:24.470 --> 00:06:25.429 I wonder if you can talk a little 219 00:06:25.430 --> 00:06:27.289 bit about why you 220 00:06:27.290 --> 00:06:28.339 think that was the case, that it 221 00:06:28.340 --> 00:06:29.809 hadn't played that big a role. 222 00:06:29.810 --> 00:06:32.179 And what you've been able to 223 00:06:32.180 --> 00:06:33.499 contribute-- what you and others 224 00:06:33.500 --> 00:06:34.909 have been able to contribute, 225 00:06:34.910 --> 00:06:36.529 thinking about place, thinking about 226 00:06:36.530 --> 00:06:38.899 space, thinking about geographical 227 00:06:38.900 --> 00:06:40.549 questions in the Holocaust in the 228 00:06:40.550 --> 00:06:42.679 last ten plus years. 229 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:44.449 I think there are a couple reasons 230 00:06:44.450 --> 00:06:46.699 why the study of the Holocaust 231 00:06:46.700 --> 00:06:50.119 had not been geographical before. 232 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:51.949 One is that 233 00:06:51.950 --> 00:06:54.709 there is an enormous-- 234 00:06:54.710 --> 00:06:57.019 there are enormous 235 00:06:57.020 --> 00:06:59.659 archives related to the Holocaust, 236 00:06:59.660 --> 00:07:01.519 as many people know, or you 237 00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:03.349 might just guess. The Nazis 238 00:07:03.350 --> 00:07:05.779 were terrific record keepers, 239 00:07:05.780 --> 00:07:07.639 and there are millions 240 00:07:07.640 --> 00:07:10.279 of documents that they kept. 241 00:07:10.280 --> 00:07:12.109 They were businesslike 242 00:07:12.110 --> 00:07:13.279 in their approach. 243 00:07:13.280 --> 00:07:15.859 They were excellent planners, 244 00:07:15.860 --> 00:07:17.989 and lots and lots of regular 245 00:07:17.990 --> 00:07:19.849 business people got involved to 246 00:07:19.850 --> 00:07:21.709 use Jews, especially 247 00:07:21.710 --> 00:07:24.559 as forced labor. They left records. 248 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:26.389 When you have an enormous archive of 249 00:07:26.390 --> 00:07:28.219 written documents, that is 250 00:07:28.220 --> 00:07:30.499 a starting point for most 251 00:07:30.500 --> 00:07:31.879 historical work. 252 00:07:31.880 --> 00:07:32.719 So fair enough. 253 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:34.309 People have been mining those 254 00:07:34.310 --> 00:07:35.179 archives. 255 00:07:35.180 --> 00:07:37.339 Another key kind of 256 00:07:37.340 --> 00:07:39.199 documentary record 257 00:07:39.200 --> 00:07:41.329 are the testimonies 258 00:07:41.330 --> 00:07:43.789 given in oral and written interviews 259 00:07:43.790 --> 00:07:45.409 with Holocaust survivors. 260 00:07:45.410 --> 00:07:47.239 There are tens of thousands of 261 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:49.639 those interviews that are enormously 262 00:07:49.640 --> 00:07:51.469 valuable, so scholars have been 263 00:07:51.470 --> 00:07:52.849 using those. 264 00:07:52.850 --> 00:07:54.799 So what we have so far and what 265 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.439 I'm describing are superb 266 00:07:57.440 --> 00:07:59.659 textual records 267 00:07:59.660 --> 00:08:01.999 that conventional historical 268 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:03.889 approaches can work 269 00:08:03.890 --> 00:08:05.779 with very, very well. 270 00:08:05.780 --> 00:08:07.939 But there was one man, an English 271 00:08:07.940 --> 00:08:10.009 historical geographer named Andrew 272 00:08:10.010 --> 00:08:11.010 Charlesworth, who 273 00:08:12.260 --> 00:08:13.969 became interested in the Holocaust 274 00:08:13.970 --> 00:08:15.889 about 20 years ago, 275 00:08:15.890 --> 00:08:17.719 went to places like 276 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:20.059 Auschwitz, the Warsaw Ghetto, 277 00:08:20.060 --> 00:08:22.399 Krakow, and walked 278 00:08:22.400 --> 00:08:24.439 the landscape and then wrote some 279 00:08:24.440 --> 00:08:26.539 very moving essays about 280 00:08:26.540 --> 00:08:27.709 what he saw. 281 00:08:27.710 --> 00:08:29.959 Charlesworth's great insight 282 00:08:29.960 --> 00:08:31.969 was that the Holocaust didn't 283 00:08:31.970 --> 00:08:33.889 just take place in the big, awful 284 00:08:33.890 --> 00:08:35.329 places that we know about, like 285 00:08:35.330 --> 00:08:36.349 Auschwitz. 286 00:08:36.350 --> 00:08:38.989 But it took place in train stations. 287 00:08:38.990 --> 00:08:41.269 It took place in public parks. 288 00:08:41.270 --> 00:08:43.668 It took place in public schools 289 00:08:43.669 --> 00:08:45.499 where people were held while 290 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:46.729 they were waiting for the trains to 291 00:08:46.730 --> 00:08:47.899 come in to take them away to 292 00:08:47.900 --> 00:08:48.799 Auschwitz. 293 00:08:48.800 --> 00:08:50.209 In other words, the mundane, 294 00:08:50.210 --> 00:08:52.579 everyday landscapes of 295 00:08:52.580 --> 00:08:54.679 Germany and Poland, and other parts 296 00:08:54.680 --> 00:08:56.509 of Europe were also part 297 00:08:56.510 --> 00:08:57.710 of the Holocaust. 298 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:00.699 His essay became 299 00:09:00.700 --> 00:09:01.828 the seed of an idea, about 300 00:09:02.950 --> 00:09:05.199 ten years ago, for 301 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:06.369 the organization of an 302 00:09:06.370 --> 00:09:08.559 interdisciplinary seminar 303 00:09:08.560 --> 00:09:09.849 at the Holocaust Museum in 304 00:09:09.850 --> 00:09:11.829 Washington, D.C., that I was 305 00:09:11.830 --> 00:09:13.209 a part of. 306 00:09:13.210 --> 00:09:14.799 It was a group of geographers and 307 00:09:14.800 --> 00:09:16.929 historians who came together really 308 00:09:16.930 --> 00:09:17.930 just to discuss might 309 00:09:19.030 --> 00:09:20.619 it be interesting to study the 310 00:09:20.620 --> 00:09:22.479 Holocaust geographically and how 311 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:23.620 would we do that? 312 00:09:25.220 --> 00:09:27.049 The group of the nine 313 00:09:27.050 --> 00:09:28.909 of us in a basement room 314 00:09:28.910 --> 00:09:29.910 for two weeks together had 315 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:34.769 such an electrifying experience. 316 00:09:34.770 --> 00:09:36.539 Not only did we say, "Yes, we can 317 00:09:36.540 --> 00:09:38.219 study the Holocaust geographically," 318 00:09:38.220 --> 00:09:40.049 but "Oh my God, this is 319 00:09:40.050 --> 00:09:42.539 the whole unknown history 320 00:09:42.540 --> 00:09:43.359 of the Holocaust. 321 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:44.879 How did it unfold across the 322 00:09:44.880 --> 00:09:45.749 landscape? 323 00:09:45.750 --> 00:09:47.519 Which places were created and 324 00:09:47.520 --> 00:09:48.569 destroyed? 325 00:09:48.570 --> 00:09:50.039 What happened when people were 326 00:09:50.040 --> 00:09:52.079 dislocated from 327 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:54.539 their shtetls to 328 00:09:54.540 --> 00:09:56.399 a big city like Warsaw 329 00:09:56.400 --> 00:09:57.719 in a ghetto where no one speaks 330 00:09:57.720 --> 00:09:59.579 their language?" So it 331 00:09:59.580 --> 00:10:01.139 just opened up an enormous number of 332 00:10:01.140 --> 00:10:03.779 new research questions, which 333 00:10:03.780 --> 00:10:05.639 the Holocaust Geographies 334 00:10:05.640 --> 00:10:07.169 Collaborative, the group that I'm 335 00:10:07.170 --> 00:10:08.999 very proud to be a part of, 336 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:10.769 has been pursuing now for a decade, 337 00:10:10.770 --> 00:10:12.629 and we see no end in sight. 338 00:10:12.630 --> 00:10:13.630 Yeah. 339 00:10:13.940 --> 00:10:16.109 One thing I think about that 340 00:10:16.110 --> 00:10:17.339 collective is it's a very 341 00:10:17.340 --> 00:10:18.419 interdisciplinary group. 342 00:10:18.420 --> 00:10:20.999 So one of the things that your work, 343 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:22.173 and you could see this in the-- you 344 00:10:22.174 --> 00:10:23.579 published Geographies of the 345 00:10:23.580 --> 00:10:25.229 Holocaust in 2014 with some of the 346 00:10:25.230 --> 00:10:26.369 same people, yes, that you got 347 00:10:26.370 --> 00:10:28.499 together with that group. 348 00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:30.389 So some of what I 349 00:10:30.390 --> 00:10:31.559 noticed in reading your work was 350 00:10:31.560 --> 00:10:32.789 that the questions - you were asking 351 00:10:32.790 --> 00:10:33.790 these questions about place - 352 00:10:35.220 --> 00:10:37.289 allow for a very interdisciplinary 353 00:10:37.290 --> 00:10:39.179 kind of grouping of people that 354 00:10:39.180 --> 00:10:40.229 work together. Has that been one of 355 00:10:40.230 --> 00:10:42.239 the benefits that you've seen of 356 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:43.229 asking the kinds of questions that 357 00:10:43.230 --> 00:10:43.799 you ask? 358 00:10:43.800 --> 00:10:45.389 Very much so. 359 00:10:45.390 --> 00:10:46.390 In 360 00:10:48.210 --> 00:10:49.889 scholarship, generally place is 361 00:10:49.890 --> 00:10:51.749 becoming a nexus 362 00:10:51.750 --> 00:10:53.759 for interdisciplinary work. 363 00:10:53.760 --> 00:10:55.049 So if you think about what is a 364 00:10:55.050 --> 00:10:57.179 place, take Pittsburgh. 365 00:10:57.180 --> 00:10:58.289 Pittsburgh is a city. 366 00:10:58.290 --> 00:11:00.029 Okay. People who are interested in 367 00:11:00.030 --> 00:11:02.309 cities study urban planning. 368 00:11:02.310 --> 00:11:04.589 They study pollution. 369 00:11:04.590 --> 00:11:06.389 They study here the history of 370 00:11:06.390 --> 00:11:07.859 industry, but also the history of 371 00:11:07.860 --> 00:11:10.709 the arts and philanthropy, 372 00:11:10.710 --> 00:11:13.199 the history of immigration, 373 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:15.089 literature, people who have written 374 00:11:15.090 --> 00:11:17.249 about this city, how the city 375 00:11:17.250 --> 00:11:19.079 has been symbolized in 376 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:20.939 art. So you can see it's 377 00:11:20.940 --> 00:11:23.219 kind of a natural way 378 00:11:23.220 --> 00:11:24.989 to think about the richness of our 379 00:11:24.990 --> 00:11:27.059 located lives. 380 00:11:27.060 --> 00:11:28.679 In the case of the Holocaust, 381 00:11:28.680 --> 00:11:30.539 thinking about place, 382 00:11:30.540 --> 00:11:32.369 for one thing, pulls together 383 00:11:32.370 --> 00:11:34.529 those two kinds of massive archives 384 00:11:34.530 --> 00:11:36.449 that I was describing a minute ago, 385 00:11:36.450 --> 00:11:38.129 the perpetrator archives of the 386 00:11:38.130 --> 00:11:40.109 Nazis and 387 00:11:40.110 --> 00:11:42.149 the victim archives of people's 388 00:11:42.150 --> 00:11:43.469 lived experience. 389 00:11:43.470 --> 00:11:45.509 And not just suffering but also 390 00:11:45.510 --> 00:11:47.309 how they resisted, how they 391 00:11:47.310 --> 00:11:49.259 maintained their faith, how 392 00:11:49.260 --> 00:11:50.609 they tried to keep their families 393 00:11:50.610 --> 00:11:51.839 together, how they found food. 394 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:53.939 All of that takes 395 00:11:53.940 --> 00:11:55.319 place. 396 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:57.389 It also gets 397 00:11:57.390 --> 00:11:59.459 funny. It kind of takes a village 398 00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:01.229 to do this kind of research. 399 00:12:01.230 --> 00:12:02.729 You need people who can do the 400 00:12:02.730 --> 00:12:03.569 historical work. 401 00:12:03.570 --> 00:12:05.489 You need people who can make maps. 402 00:12:05.490 --> 00:12:07.499 You need people who are sensitive 403 00:12:07.500 --> 00:12:09.449 to language, 404 00:12:09.450 --> 00:12:11.549 literary scholars, feminist 405 00:12:11.550 --> 00:12:13.109 scholars. 406 00:12:13.110 --> 00:12:15.569 So we find that the collaborative 407 00:12:15.570 --> 00:12:17.759 is a kind of natural meeting 408 00:12:17.760 --> 00:12:19.799 place for scholars 409 00:12:19.800 --> 00:12:21.929 of many backgrounds 410 00:12:21.930 --> 00:12:23.819 who have a common interest in what 411 00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:25.619 happened to people in places of 412 00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:26.099 trauma. 413 00:12:26.100 --> 00:12:27.100 Yeah. 414 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:28.960 Well, I want to 415 00:12:29.880 --> 00:12:31.049 ask a little bit more specific 416 00:12:31.050 --> 00:12:33.749 question about your work with 417 00:12:33.750 --> 00:12:35.699 place because 418 00:12:35.700 --> 00:12:36.899 for many years now, you've been 419 00:12:36.900 --> 00:12:38.759 working on integrating geographic 420 00:12:38.760 --> 00:12:40.979 information systems or GIS 421 00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:42.659 into a study, as it's known, into 422 00:12:42.660 --> 00:12:43.660 the study of history. 423 00:12:44.970 --> 00:12:47.039 This is a particular way 424 00:12:47.040 --> 00:12:48.809 to, as I see it, a particular kind 425 00:12:48.810 --> 00:12:50.409 of tool or technology. 426 00:12:50.410 --> 00:12:51.509 I know there's a difference between 427 00:12:51.510 --> 00:12:52.769 talking about it as one or the 428 00:12:52.770 --> 00:12:54.599 other, but you can talk about that 429 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:55.600 in a moment. 430 00:12:57.960 --> 00:12:59.489 I see it as a specific way to 431 00:12:59.490 --> 00:13:00.509 approach some of the big picture 432 00:13:00.510 --> 00:13:01.619 questions we've been talking about. 433 00:13:01.620 --> 00:13:02.999 Right? It's a way to kind of like to 434 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:04.439 address interesting questions of 435 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:05.669 space and place. 436 00:13:05.670 --> 00:13:07.529 For our listeners that may not know 437 00:13:07.530 --> 00:13:09.359 what GIS is, can 438 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.249 you give us kind of a big picture 439 00:13:11.250 --> 00:13:12.539 sense of what it is? 440 00:13:12.540 --> 00:13:13.799 Sure. 441 00:13:13.800 --> 00:13:15.059 By the way, I've got to say you're 442 00:13:15.060 --> 00:13:16.859 marvelously prepared for all of 443 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:18.899 this. That's probably the best "what 444 00:13:18.900 --> 00:13:21.179 is GIS" question I've ever had. 445 00:13:21.180 --> 00:13:22.180 Good. I'm honored. 446 00:13:23.071 --> 00:13:24.071 GIS, Geographic 447 00:13:25.230 --> 00:13:27.419 Information Systems, 448 00:13:27.420 --> 00:13:29.909 is a name for 449 00:13:29.910 --> 00:13:32.609 a whole collection of software 450 00:13:32.610 --> 00:13:35.099 that attaches 451 00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:37.439 attributes to spatial 452 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:38.440 coordinates. 453 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:41.819 Coordinates, meaning like latitude 454 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:43.439 and longitude. 455 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:45.329 That's what we call the spatial part 456 00:13:45.330 --> 00:13:46.619 of GIS. 457 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:48.599 It can be points. 458 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:50.519 It can be lines 459 00:13:50.520 --> 00:13:52.439 like the course of a river 460 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:55.439 or the boundary of a 461 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:57.539 electoral ward, 462 00:13:57.540 --> 00:13:59.489 or it can be whole areas, 463 00:13:59.490 --> 00:14:00.659 points, lines, areas. 464 00:14:02.010 --> 00:14:04.019 The attribute part of 465 00:14:04.020 --> 00:14:05.639 GIS means what are the 466 00:14:05.640 --> 00:14:07.949 characteristics of those points, 467 00:14:07.950 --> 00:14:10.259 lines, or polygons? 468 00:14:10.260 --> 00:14:12.749 And those can be 469 00:14:12.750 --> 00:14:14.669 anything you can 470 00:14:14.670 --> 00:14:15.869 imagine. 471 00:14:15.870 --> 00:14:18.449 It can be the population of a city. 472 00:14:18.450 --> 00:14:20.309 It can be the number 473 00:14:20.310 --> 00:14:22.649 of customers who go to Walmart. 474 00:14:22.650 --> 00:14:24.509 Some of the biggest users 475 00:14:24.510 --> 00:14:26.549 of GIS are 476 00:14:26.550 --> 00:14:28.619 global businesses who need 477 00:14:28.620 --> 00:14:30.479 to incorporate geographic 478 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:32.069 planning in their corporate 479 00:14:32.070 --> 00:14:34.859 strategies and 480 00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:36.689 defense departments around 481 00:14:36.690 --> 00:14:38.579 the world because GIS 482 00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:40.619 is, of course, used to target smart 483 00:14:40.620 --> 00:14:42.689 bombs and plan 484 00:14:42.690 --> 00:14:44.639 flying routes for bombers and 485 00:14:44.640 --> 00:14:45.640 everything else. 486 00:14:46.380 --> 00:14:48.311 So what GIS 487 00:14:48.312 --> 00:14:51.419 has become in the world 488 00:14:51.420 --> 00:14:53.639 is a sort of 489 00:14:53.640 --> 00:14:55.889 Cartesian net of 490 00:14:55.890 --> 00:14:57.959 places that 491 00:14:57.960 --> 00:14:59.789 people want to think about 492 00:14:59.790 --> 00:15:02.639 strategically one way or another. 493 00:15:02.640 --> 00:15:04.859 For history, GIS 494 00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:07.229 is still relatively new, 495 00:15:07.230 --> 00:15:08.999 and I would call it-- I prefer to 496 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:10.919 think of it really as a method 497 00:15:10.920 --> 00:15:12.809 rather than a tool or a technology. 498 00:15:12.810 --> 00:15:14.579 It is both of those things too. 499 00:15:14.580 --> 00:15:16.408 But I use GIS 500 00:15:16.409 --> 00:15:18.269 as a way of thinking about 501 00:15:18.270 --> 00:15:19.830 and analyzing the past. 502 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:24.629 For my GIS, the iron industry, 503 00:15:24.630 --> 00:15:26.939 for example, had a list 504 00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:30.029 of about a thousand ironworks, 505 00:15:30.030 --> 00:15:31.859 their spatial location in 506 00:15:31.860 --> 00:15:34.049 latitude and longitude, and then 507 00:15:34.050 --> 00:15:35.009 how big were they. 508 00:15:35.010 --> 00:15:36.059 When were they built? 509 00:15:36.060 --> 00:15:37.109 When were they closed? 510 00:15:37.110 --> 00:15:38.249 Who managed them? 511 00:15:38.250 --> 00:15:39.479 How many workers did they have, 512 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:40.769 etc.? So you can begin to see a 513 00:15:40.770 --> 00:15:43.139 spreadsheet of information 514 00:15:43.140 --> 00:15:44.279 attached to places. 515 00:15:44.280 --> 00:15:46.289 That's the gist of the kind 516 00:15:46.290 --> 00:15:48.109 of GIS that most 517 00:15:48.110 --> 00:15:49.110 people do. 518 00:15:49.909 --> 00:15:51.308 Yeah. I wonder, let's see-- 519 00:15:52.880 --> 00:15:54.859 I wonder if you can give us an 520 00:15:54.860 --> 00:15:56.539 example of what-- we've talked a 521 00:15:56.540 --> 00:15:57.540 little bit about place 522 00:15:59.210 --> 00:16:01.219 and how thinking about place can 523 00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:02.419 contribute to thinking about 524 00:16:02.420 --> 00:16:04.071 history. Can you talk a little bit - 525 00:16:04.072 --> 00:16:06.289 this is kind of a more specific 526 00:16:06.290 --> 00:16:07.549 version of that question - of what 527 00:16:07.550 --> 00:16:09.379 GIS can do 528 00:16:09.380 --> 00:16:11.899 that contributes to 529 00:16:11.900 --> 00:16:13.639 historical scholarship? 530 00:16:13.640 --> 00:16:14.640 Oh. 531 00:16:15.650 --> 00:16:17.389 Something that many people say is 532 00:16:17.390 --> 00:16:19.249 the great power, the great 533 00:16:19.250 --> 00:16:20.250 capacity of 534 00:16:21.410 --> 00:16:23.719 GIS is that it can hold any 535 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.329 amount of information. 536 00:16:26.330 --> 00:16:28.159 So in 537 00:16:28.160 --> 00:16:29.869 the days that we're in now of 538 00:16:29.870 --> 00:16:31.729 digital scholarship, lots of people 539 00:16:31.730 --> 00:16:33.052 talk about big data versus 540 00:16:34.370 --> 00:16:35.749 the very close reading of a little 541 00:16:35.750 --> 00:16:36.750 bit of data. In 542 00:16:37.610 --> 00:16:38.660 the big data world of 543 00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:40.849 GIS, in the Holocaust project now, 544 00:16:40.850 --> 00:16:43.939 we are contemplating 545 00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:46.219 maybe, within the next ten years, 546 00:16:46.220 --> 00:16:48.139 building a GIS of the Holocaust 547 00:16:48.140 --> 00:16:50.209 that would contain 60,000 548 00:16:50.210 --> 00:16:52.279 places, each 549 00:16:52.280 --> 00:16:54.589 of which is located in space 550 00:16:54.590 --> 00:16:56.749 and time with its 551 00:16:56.750 --> 00:16:58.129 attributes. And what are those 552 00:16:58.130 --> 00:17:00.079 60,000 places? 553 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:01.849 They are the places that the 554 00:17:01.850 --> 00:17:04.098 Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. 555 00:17:04.099 --> 00:17:06.108 is documenting in its enormous 556 00:17:06.109 --> 00:17:08.689 encyclopedia of camps and ghettos. 557 00:17:08.690 --> 00:17:10.848 All of the places that the Nazis 558 00:17:10.849 --> 00:17:13.098 and their allies imprisoned 559 00:17:13.099 --> 00:17:14.959 people, tortured them, killed them, 560 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:17.149 put them to forced labor, etc.. 561 00:17:17.150 --> 00:17:19.009 When you have that many places 562 00:17:19.010 --> 00:17:21.199 that you want to analyze, you need 563 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:23.059 a pretty big horse to 564 00:17:23.060 --> 00:17:25.098 do the work. And that's what 565 00:17:25.099 --> 00:17:26.689 GIS is going to do. It's going to 566 00:17:26.690 --> 00:17:28.579 transform the study 567 00:17:28.580 --> 00:17:30.469 of the Holocaust by enabling 568 00:17:30.470 --> 00:17:32.839 comparative, complicated 569 00:17:32.840 --> 00:17:35.209 analysis of the entire 570 00:17:35.210 --> 00:17:37.141 system that the Nazis put in place. 571 00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:40.249 Yeah. I want to kind of-- 572 00:17:40.250 --> 00:17:42.499 one thing that I was really 573 00:17:42.500 --> 00:17:44.209 interested to read in your book from 574 00:17:44.210 --> 00:17:46.099 2002-- it's kind of an early book on 575 00:17:46.100 --> 00:17:47.045 working with GIS. 576 00:17:47.046 --> 00:17:48.349 Past Time, Past Place is the name of 577 00:17:48.350 --> 00:17:49.279 the book. 578 00:17:49.280 --> 00:17:51.169 There's an example 579 00:17:51.170 --> 00:17:52.849 in that book of a Civil War 580 00:17:52.850 --> 00:17:54.739 historian talking about - and 581 00:17:54.740 --> 00:17:55.639 this I'm thinking here of kind of a 582 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:56.809 practical benefit of working with 583 00:17:56.810 --> 00:17:58.699 GIS - talking about being 584 00:17:58.700 --> 00:18:00.619 better equipped to fight 585 00:18:00.620 --> 00:18:02.509 for preserving land 586 00:18:02.510 --> 00:18:04.549 because GIS actually could provide 587 00:18:04.550 --> 00:18:05.550 kind of visual 588 00:18:06.620 --> 00:18:08.629 accounts of what existed 589 00:18:08.630 --> 00:18:09.529 there and why it was important. 590 00:18:09.530 --> 00:18:11.329 And that this kind of enabled him to 591 00:18:11.330 --> 00:18:13.069 kind of match up well with 592 00:18:13.070 --> 00:18:15.469 developers, who we all-- when 593 00:18:15.470 --> 00:18:16.609 you imagine a developer making a 594 00:18:16.610 --> 00:18:17.509 pitch, what do you see? 595 00:18:17.510 --> 00:18:19.279 You see kind of these big like plan, 596 00:18:19.280 --> 00:18:21.049 visions, and look at this great 597 00:18:21.050 --> 00:18:22.799 mixed-use housing facility we'll 598 00:18:22.800 --> 00:18:23.800 build. That kind of thing. 599 00:18:24.530 --> 00:18:25.879 So that seemed to me to be a really 600 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:27.619 practical benefit of GIS as helping 601 00:18:27.620 --> 00:18:29.659 kind of preservationists 602 00:18:29.660 --> 00:18:31.579 talk about the past and kind 603 00:18:31.580 --> 00:18:32.479 of what it looks like and things 604 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:33.439 like that. 605 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:34.609 Are there other kinds of practical 606 00:18:34.610 --> 00:18:36.829 benefits that GIS has given to 607 00:18:36.830 --> 00:18:38.269 people who work with land and 608 00:18:38.270 --> 00:18:39.589 history and things like that? 609 00:18:39.590 --> 00:18:41.629 Well, the example of 610 00:18:41.630 --> 00:18:43.609 battlefield preservation is 611 00:18:43.610 --> 00:18:45.829 a really good one in Northern 612 00:18:45.830 --> 00:18:47.479 Virginia, which that article is 613 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:48.480 largely about. 614 00:18:49.520 --> 00:18:51.349 Developers have been 615 00:18:51.350 --> 00:18:53.389 building luxury 616 00:18:53.390 --> 00:18:54.799 developments, condo developments 617 00:18:54.800 --> 00:18:57.319 like mad, many of them over trenches 618 00:18:57.320 --> 00:18:58.729 from the Civil War. 619 00:18:58.730 --> 00:19:00.739 And there are real issues 620 00:19:00.740 --> 00:19:02.809 at stake of history and cultural 621 00:19:02.810 --> 00:19:04.849 values and what matters in society 622 00:19:04.850 --> 00:19:06.049 in the long term. 623 00:19:06.050 --> 00:19:07.609 I think one of the most interesting 624 00:19:07.610 --> 00:19:09.529 sort of categories of that 625 00:19:09.530 --> 00:19:12.139 counter use that's very practical 626 00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:13.999 and culturally important using 627 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.159 GIS is called community 628 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:17.989 mapping, where people have 629 00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:20.479 gone to places like Belize 630 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:22.669 and brought in 631 00:19:22.670 --> 00:19:25.069 local teenagers and elders 632 00:19:25.070 --> 00:19:26.299 and all sorts of people from the 633 00:19:26.300 --> 00:19:28.201 community to learn how to use G.P.S. 634 00:19:28.202 --> 00:19:29.202 to 635 00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:31.999 walk around a landscape, collecting 636 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:33.469 location points that you can then 637 00:19:33.470 --> 00:19:34.939 put on a map in GIS. 638 00:19:36.650 --> 00:19:38.509 And then, they can make 639 00:19:38.510 --> 00:19:41.389 the arguments against 640 00:19:41.390 --> 00:19:43.309 the Del Monte company 641 00:19:43.310 --> 00:19:44.779 that wants to build another banana 642 00:19:44.780 --> 00:19:45.559 plantation. 643 00:19:45.560 --> 00:19:47.209 And they can say, "No, no, no, no. 644 00:19:47.210 --> 00:19:49.189 This is where we have been 645 00:19:49.190 --> 00:19:51.379 harvesting nuts 646 00:19:51.380 --> 00:19:53.089 and wild fruits and doing certain 647 00:19:53.090 --> 00:19:55.009 kinds of hunting for about 2000 648 00:19:55.010 --> 00:19:56.750 years. So, hands off, Del Monte." 649 00:19:57.890 --> 00:19:59.779 What this means 650 00:19:59.780 --> 00:20:01.669 is whichever 651 00:20:01.670 --> 00:20:03.589 cultural group is learning 652 00:20:03.590 --> 00:20:05.419 the tool can 653 00:20:05.420 --> 00:20:07.399 apply it in their interest. 654 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:09.229 And we have to acknowledge 655 00:20:09.230 --> 00:20:11.179 that the most skillful people using 656 00:20:11.180 --> 00:20:13.009 GIS today are the people 657 00:20:13.010 --> 00:20:14.929 with their hands on the buttons 658 00:20:14.930 --> 00:20:16.279 for the bombs. 659 00:20:16.280 --> 00:20:18.529 But the rest of us can 660 00:20:18.530 --> 00:20:20.419 educate ourselves equally 661 00:20:20.420 --> 00:20:21.420 to make those counterarguments. In 662 00:20:23.120 --> 00:20:24.769 the context of the Holocaust, I 663 00:20:24.770 --> 00:20:25.969 think one of the things that's 664 00:20:25.970 --> 00:20:28.069 exciting is lots 665 00:20:28.070 --> 00:20:30.079 of university professors, many 666 00:20:30.080 --> 00:20:31.579 of them out of history departments 667 00:20:31.580 --> 00:20:33.769 now, who lead field trips 668 00:20:33.770 --> 00:20:35.449 to Holocaust sites with their 669 00:20:35.450 --> 00:20:37.279 students, are beginning to 670 00:20:37.280 --> 00:20:38.719 have them make maps. 671 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:40.579 And so students can make 672 00:20:40.580 --> 00:20:42.589 a map journal of their 673 00:20:42.590 --> 00:20:43.609 experiences. 674 00:20:43.610 --> 00:20:45.409 And then, the map becomes the 675 00:20:45.410 --> 00:20:48.049 background for a story. 676 00:20:48.050 --> 00:20:49.999 This is something that I find 677 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:51.049 really rich. 678 00:20:51.050 --> 00:20:53.179 It's a combination of the arts 679 00:20:53.180 --> 00:20:56.419 and history and geography 680 00:20:56.420 --> 00:20:58.399 that personal narratives and 681 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:00.349 spatial storytelling are 682 00:21:00.350 --> 00:21:01.819 becoming more and more popular. 683 00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:03.109 Maybe that's not practical. 684 00:21:03.110 --> 00:21:05.029 Maybe it's a little more dreamy, 685 00:21:05.030 --> 00:21:06.619 but it's personally important to 686 00:21:06.620 --> 00:21:07.099 people. 687 00:21:07.100 --> 00:21:08.929 Yeah.This actually kind 688 00:21:08.930 --> 00:21:11.629 of like gets us up, I think, into-- 689 00:21:11.630 --> 00:21:12.859 relates well to the next question I 690 00:21:12.860 --> 00:21:14.299 was going to ask. 691 00:21:14.300 --> 00:21:15.469 Because you and a lot of other 692 00:21:15.470 --> 00:21:17.749 people who've dealt with 693 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:20.839 GIS in scholarship who talk a lot 694 00:21:20.840 --> 00:21:23.599 about the use of 695 00:21:23.600 --> 00:21:25.819 the tool being shaped by 696 00:21:25.820 --> 00:21:27.709 the technology itself and that 697 00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:28.819 there are opportunities that it 698 00:21:28.820 --> 00:21:30.559 provides. There are also constraints 699 00:21:30.560 --> 00:21:31.909 that exist with it. 700 00:21:31.910 --> 00:21:32.839 So I wonder if you can talk a little 701 00:21:32.840 --> 00:21:34.899 bit about that, about both and 702 00:21:34.900 --> 00:21:36.619 with relation to your own work, both 703 00:21:36.620 --> 00:21:37.609 the opportunities and some of the 704 00:21:37.610 --> 00:21:38.950 constraints that exist in GIS. 705 00:21:40.040 --> 00:21:41.959 Yeah, this is a really important 706 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:42.980 question, Dan, 707 00:21:44.210 --> 00:21:45.210 because 708 00:21:46.520 --> 00:21:49.159 I don't ever want to be 709 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.259 a cheerleader for GIS. 710 00:21:51.260 --> 00:21:52.729 It doesn't solve all problems. 711 00:21:52.730 --> 00:21:54.589 It's very good 712 00:21:54.590 --> 00:21:56.719 when you're working with 713 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:58.819 consistently documented 714 00:21:58.820 --> 00:22:01.369 information and places 715 00:22:01.370 --> 00:22:03.349 with known location. 716 00:22:03.350 --> 00:22:05.209 But to come back to the Holocaust 717 00:22:05.210 --> 00:22:06.769 example, those testimonies I was 718 00:22:06.770 --> 00:22:08.869 talking about are full of reference 719 00:22:08.870 --> 00:22:09.979 to place. 720 00:22:09.980 --> 00:22:12.229 But as you can imagine, as people 721 00:22:12.230 --> 00:22:13.999 are dislocated when they're on the 722 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:16.189 cattle car heading to a camp 723 00:22:16.190 --> 00:22:18.049 or they're being marched through 724 00:22:18.050 --> 00:22:20.359 the woods for kilometers, 725 00:22:20.360 --> 00:22:21.769 they get further and further away 726 00:22:21.770 --> 00:22:23.479 from home. They become disoriented. 727 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:25.039 They don't know where they are. 728 00:22:25.040 --> 00:22:26.299 They are undergoing traumatic 729 00:22:26.300 --> 00:22:27.109 experiences. 730 00:22:27.110 --> 00:22:29.179 So their descriptions of place, 731 00:22:29.180 --> 00:22:30.859 in some ways, become more and more 732 00:22:30.860 --> 00:22:32.539 important because they're talking 733 00:22:32.540 --> 00:22:34.579 about their emotional and physical 734 00:22:34.580 --> 00:22:35.869 difficulties. 735 00:22:35.870 --> 00:22:37.459 But at the same time, it becomes 736 00:22:37.460 --> 00:22:40.129 harder and harder to map 737 00:22:40.130 --> 00:22:42.199 in the way that GIS demands. 738 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:44.779 GIS forces you to be precise. 739 00:22:44.780 --> 00:22:46.789 And so, it can create what we 740 00:22:46.790 --> 00:22:49.189 call specious accuracy. 741 00:22:49.190 --> 00:22:50.059 You're making it up. 742 00:22:50.060 --> 00:22:51.229 You don't really know where someone 743 00:22:51.230 --> 00:22:52.159 was. 744 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:53.899 And the approach that I've 745 00:22:53.900 --> 00:22:55.819 encouraged, particularly students 746 00:22:55.820 --> 00:22:58.579 who I work with, to use 747 00:22:58.580 --> 00:23:00.679 is something I call inductive 748 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:02.689 visualization, where you 749 00:23:02.690 --> 00:23:04.519 draw by hand on a piece of paper 750 00:23:04.520 --> 00:23:06.169 with colored pencils. 751 00:23:06.170 --> 00:23:07.226 You work more impressionistically in 752 00:23:08.750 --> 00:23:10.669 a way that is in keeping with 753 00:23:10.670 --> 00:23:12.349 the spirit and the content of your 754 00:23:12.350 --> 00:23:13.189 source. 755 00:23:13.190 --> 00:23:14.599 So what I like to do, 756 00:23:15.770 --> 00:23:16.939 and we're doing this in the 757 00:23:16.940 --> 00:23:18.499 Holocaust Geographies Collaborative 758 00:23:18.500 --> 00:23:20.539 more broadly, we 759 00:23:20.540 --> 00:23:22.399 like to keep the whole range of 760 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:24.499 visual approaches in mind 761 00:23:24.500 --> 00:23:26.359 so that the 762 00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:28.189 method that you choose is 763 00:23:28.190 --> 00:23:29.719 as appropriate as possible to the 764 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:31.509 material you're working with. 765 00:23:31.510 --> 00:23:32.510 Right. And 766 00:23:33.350 --> 00:23:34.489 you've written about inductive 767 00:23:34.490 --> 00:23:36.559 visualization. And that 768 00:23:36.560 --> 00:23:37.969 doesn't-- I mean, I think I'm just 769 00:23:37.970 --> 00:23:39.979 kind of repeating something that 770 00:23:39.980 --> 00:23:41.899 you just mentioned, but there's 771 00:23:41.900 --> 00:23:44.029 no technology 772 00:23:44.030 --> 00:23:45.030 that 773 00:23:46.370 --> 00:23:47.809 you're entering into at that point, 774 00:23:47.810 --> 00:23:48.810 right? 775 00:23:49.250 --> 00:23:50.102 Well, the technology of the pencil. 776 00:23:50.103 --> 00:23:50.659 Sure. 777 00:23:50.660 --> 00:23:52.559 Which some people say that 778 00:23:52.560 --> 00:23:54.679 the hand holding something 779 00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:55.680 is the first tool. 780 00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:59.179 What I find is that 781 00:23:59.180 --> 00:24:01.009 there there are so many 782 00:24:02.450 --> 00:24:04.459 intervening 783 00:24:04.460 --> 00:24:06.439 structures when you work 784 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:07.939 on a computer, even if you're just 785 00:24:07.940 --> 00:24:09.439 typing. We forget about it. 786 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:10.669 We're so used to it. 787 00:24:10.670 --> 00:24:12.889 It seems natural, but it isn't. 788 00:24:12.890 --> 00:24:14.179 It's all highly structured and 789 00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:15.289 mediated. 790 00:24:15.290 --> 00:24:17.149 But when you pick up a pencil, 791 00:24:17.150 --> 00:24:19.069 and you go to a piece of paper-- or 792 00:24:19.070 --> 00:24:20.749 chalk and a chalkboard I like even 793 00:24:20.750 --> 00:24:22.639 better because then you can draw 794 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:24.739 really big and freely, 795 00:24:24.740 --> 00:24:26.419 and you get your whole body 796 00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:27.829 involved. 797 00:24:27.830 --> 00:24:29.749 That frees up the 798 00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:30.859 mind. 799 00:24:30.860 --> 00:24:32.959 And I think, again, 800 00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:34.789 it's not the only way to work, but 801 00:24:34.790 --> 00:24:36.529 it's a different way to work. 802 00:24:36.530 --> 00:24:38.269 We shouldn't ever get stuck in a 803 00:24:38.270 --> 00:24:40.159 single channel because then 804 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:41.809 we forget about all the assumptions 805 00:24:41.810 --> 00:24:43.129 and the constraints we're working 806 00:24:43.130 --> 00:24:44.689 within. You need to keep breaking 807 00:24:44.690 --> 00:24:46.729 out of those to stay fresh, I think. 808 00:24:46.730 --> 00:24:48.139 Yeah. I mean, I wonder if you could 809 00:24:48.140 --> 00:24:50.089 say a little bit about your 810 00:24:50.090 --> 00:24:51.229 experience. I've read you writing 811 00:24:51.230 --> 00:24:53.089 about your experience creating 812 00:24:53.090 --> 00:24:54.889 the map that you created of-- I 813 00:24:54.890 --> 00:24:56.809 think it was Gettysburg. 814 00:24:56.810 --> 00:24:58.399 You've written about-- I mean, I'm 815 00:24:58.400 --> 00:24:59.839 thinking here in particular of the 816 00:24:59.840 --> 00:25:01.699 time and the slow length of 817 00:25:01.700 --> 00:25:03.289 time in the kind of - I want to call 818 00:25:03.290 --> 00:25:05.119 it - human investment that you made 819 00:25:05.120 --> 00:25:06.589 to the maps that you created, which 820 00:25:06.590 --> 00:25:08.479 is very different from, I think, 821 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:10.399 my own and most people's 822 00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:11.689 understanding of what a map is. 823 00:25:11.690 --> 00:25:13.999 There's a kind of objective reality 824 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:15.349 that we imagine a map to have. 825 00:25:15.350 --> 00:25:16.849 But your experience in terms of your 826 00:25:16.850 --> 00:25:18.169 own experience creating it, but then 827 00:25:18.170 --> 00:25:19.579 also the end product is something 828 00:25:19.580 --> 00:25:21.559 that's very different. 829 00:25:21.560 --> 00:25:23.269 Yeah. And just the way you phrased 830 00:25:23.270 --> 00:25:25.459 the question brings to mind how 831 00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:27.439 most people who live with their 832 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:29.329 phones on all day and who 833 00:25:29.330 --> 00:25:31.699 navigate by Google Maps, 834 00:25:31.700 --> 00:25:32.930 I think, are 835 00:25:34.970 --> 00:25:37.099 seeing maps more and more as just 836 00:25:37.100 --> 00:25:39.169 a natural thing, that maps 837 00:25:39.170 --> 00:25:41.059 are like words now, just 838 00:25:41.060 --> 00:25:41.989 ordinary, everyday. 839 00:25:41.990 --> 00:25:43.069 And you don't think about where they 840 00:25:43.070 --> 00:25:44.180 come from or how they're made. 841 00:25:45.620 --> 00:25:47.839 The map of Gettysburg that I made 842 00:25:47.840 --> 00:25:49.159 began with a question. 843 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:51.169 I was brushing my teeth one morning. 844 00:25:51.170 --> 00:25:52.729 I was living in Washington, D.C., at 845 00:25:52.730 --> 00:25:54.559 the time, and honestly, 846 00:25:54.560 --> 00:25:56.029 it just kind of popped into my head. 847 00:25:56.030 --> 00:25:57.859 What could Lee see at 848 00:25:57.860 --> 00:25:58.909 Gettysburg? 849 00:25:58.910 --> 00:26:00.590 And I knew that there was a 850 00:26:01.850 --> 00:26:03.919 GIS technique or method called 851 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:05.480 viewshed analysis 852 00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:09.019 where you need some sort of 853 00:26:09.020 --> 00:26:11.329 digital terrain surface, 854 00:26:11.330 --> 00:26:13.339 we call it, that simulates 855 00:26:13.340 --> 00:26:14.899 the landscape, and you place 856 00:26:14.900 --> 00:26:16.849 yourself digitally on that landscape 857 00:26:16.850 --> 00:26:18.709 at a certain point and ask the 858 00:26:18.710 --> 00:26:20.539 computer to tell you, using 859 00:26:20.540 --> 00:26:22.159 these elevation values, what could I 860 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:23.539 see and what could I not see from 861 00:26:23.540 --> 00:26:24.739 this viewpoint? 862 00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:26.509 It's kind of easy to picture how 863 00:26:26.510 --> 00:26:27.510 this would work. 864 00:26:28.370 --> 00:26:30.199 But how do you recreate the 865 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:32.059 battlefield of Gettysburg 866 00:26:32.060 --> 00:26:34.640 as of July 1863? 867 00:26:36.230 --> 00:26:37.969 What I found was a map in the 868 00:26:37.970 --> 00:26:40.129 National Archives that 869 00:26:40.130 --> 00:26:43.039 is an enormously detailed, 870 00:26:43.040 --> 00:26:44.359 topographic map. 871 00:26:44.360 --> 00:26:46.339 It shows contours 872 00:26:46.340 --> 00:26:48.559 representing elevation heights 873 00:26:48.560 --> 00:26:50.509 and the little valleys and 874 00:26:50.510 --> 00:26:52.549 the glacial deposits and so forth. 875 00:26:52.550 --> 00:26:54.439 And roads and 876 00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:56.299 farmsteads and fences and 877 00:26:56.300 --> 00:26:57.300 everything else. 878 00:26:59.170 --> 00:27:01.239 And at that time, 879 00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:03.159 there was no computer program 880 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:04.989 that would scan that map and 881 00:27:04.990 --> 00:27:07.539 easily pick off the contour lines 882 00:27:07.540 --> 00:27:08.799 because everything in the map was 883 00:27:08.800 --> 00:27:09.999 black. 884 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:11.109 It would pick up everything. 885 00:27:11.110 --> 00:27:12.129 It would pick up every house; it 886 00:27:12.130 --> 00:27:13.189 would pick up every road. 887 00:27:13.190 --> 00:27:15.039 And so I just decided I 888 00:27:15.040 --> 00:27:17.199 would draw-- I would trace 889 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.149 the contours like a kindergartner 890 00:27:19.150 --> 00:27:21.339 tracing an outline in an art class. 891 00:27:22.610 --> 00:27:24.979 I spent most of a summer 892 00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:27.019 listening to Mandy Patinkin 893 00:27:27.020 --> 00:27:29.629 sing beautiful Broadway songs 894 00:27:29.630 --> 00:27:31.519 and tracing the contours 895 00:27:31.520 --> 00:27:33.559 of Gettysburg hours 896 00:27:33.560 --> 00:27:35.419 and hours at a light table 897 00:27:35.420 --> 00:27:37.399 with semi-transparent big 898 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:39.379 sheets of a plastic 899 00:27:39.380 --> 00:27:41.419 called Mylar on top 900 00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:42.979 of copies of this map from the 901 00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:44.899 National Archives. 902 00:27:44.900 --> 00:27:47.149 And I felt as if the ground 903 00:27:47.150 --> 00:27:49.609 was entering my bones 904 00:27:49.610 --> 00:27:51.889 through that process of tracing. 905 00:27:51.890 --> 00:27:53.749 I learned the landscape 906 00:27:53.750 --> 00:27:55.159 by heart. 907 00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:57.019 I thought about it as I drew, but 908 00:27:57.020 --> 00:27:59.119 not in a very intellectual 909 00:27:59.120 --> 00:28:00.859 way, almost in a visceral way. 910 00:28:00.860 --> 00:28:03.139 I kind of felt like I was slowly 911 00:28:03.140 --> 00:28:05.239 walking up and down those 912 00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:06.770 hills and valleys. 913 00:28:08.120 --> 00:28:10.159 Then through a series of technical 914 00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:12.079 processes, 915 00:28:12.080 --> 00:28:13.969 those lines were brought 916 00:28:13.970 --> 00:28:15.889 into a GIS program, and we could 917 00:28:15.890 --> 00:28:17.569 finally ask the question, what could 918 00:28:17.570 --> 00:28:18.739 Lee see? 919 00:28:18.740 --> 00:28:20.839 But by tracing that landscape, 920 00:28:20.840 --> 00:28:22.939 by the time I saw the maps 921 00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:24.829 that showed in shadow what 922 00:28:24.830 --> 00:28:26.719 he couldn't see and illuminated 923 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:28.609 what he could see, I felt 924 00:28:28.610 --> 00:28:30.499 I deeply understood what that map 925 00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:31.500 was showing me. 926 00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:34.220 It became a personal experience, 927 00:28:35.270 --> 00:28:37.969 and I have so many times recommended 928 00:28:37.970 --> 00:28:40.129 that people find a way to draw. 929 00:28:40.130 --> 00:28:41.239 I'm not an artist. 930 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:43.219 I can't draw your face 931 00:28:43.220 --> 00:28:44.719 and make it look like you. 932 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:45.829 No, it sounds very artistic. 933 00:28:45.830 --> 00:28:47.389 What you're describing, the process, 934 00:28:47.390 --> 00:28:48.439 I mean, I just imagine that an 935 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:49.549 artist-- it would resonate with 936 00:28:49.550 --> 00:28:50.557 someone in terms of like becoming-- 937 00:28:50.558 --> 00:28:52.729 the experience would resonate 938 00:28:52.730 --> 00:28:53.989 with an artist even though-- I know 939 00:28:53.990 --> 00:28:55.549 what you're saying, like as a 940 00:28:55.550 --> 00:28:56.749 someone who can sit and like draw 941 00:28:56.750 --> 00:28:57.859 realistically, maybe you can't do 942 00:28:57.860 --> 00:28:59.419 that. But it sounds like an artistic 943 00:28:59.420 --> 00:29:00.469 or an aesthetic experience that 944 00:29:00.470 --> 00:29:01.039 you're describing. 945 00:29:01.040 --> 00:29:01.849 Very much so. 946 00:29:01.850 --> 00:29:03.199 And I think it's an emotional 947 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:04.069 experience. 948 00:29:04.070 --> 00:29:06.139 And I am all for finding 949 00:29:06.140 --> 00:29:07.140 ways 950 00:29:08.360 --> 00:29:10.429 to bring feeling into scholarship. 951 00:29:10.430 --> 00:29:11.430 Yeah. So, 952 00:29:13.280 --> 00:29:15.409 yeah, I want to ask you another 953 00:29:15.410 --> 00:29:17.029 question about kind of-- I think 954 00:29:17.030 --> 00:29:18.439 this relates to kind of feeling and 955 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:20.779 scholarship, really, because 956 00:29:20.780 --> 00:29:22.669 when you have done your work 957 00:29:22.670 --> 00:29:24.709 with the Holocaust studies and 958 00:29:24.710 --> 00:29:26.239 GIS and mapping and geography, in 959 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:28.279 particular, you've had some 960 00:29:28.280 --> 00:29:29.329 people, when you've presented your 961 00:29:29.330 --> 00:29:30.248 work, humanists in particular, 962 00:29:30.249 --> 00:29:31.909 object that some of the human 963 00:29:31.910 --> 00:29:33.289 element seems like it's missing. 964 00:29:33.290 --> 00:29:34.579 And it's missing as you write 965 00:29:34.580 --> 00:29:36.289 through what they see as a process 966 00:29:36.290 --> 00:29:37.290 of abstraction. 967 00:29:38.600 --> 00:29:39.889 So I wonder, you've talked a little 968 00:29:39.890 --> 00:29:41.299 bit about inductive visualization 969 00:29:41.300 --> 00:29:43.399 and some of the ways that you 970 00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:45.289 work, I think, 971 00:29:45.290 --> 00:29:47.569 against that process of abstraction 972 00:29:47.570 --> 00:29:48.559 in mapmaking. 973 00:29:48.560 --> 00:29:49.999 And so that it doesn't have to be a 974 00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:51.679 kind of impersonal or cold or 975 00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:52.790 abstract way of maps. 976 00:29:52.791 --> 00:29:53.839 It doesn't have to have those 977 00:29:53.840 --> 00:29:55.039 qualities. 978 00:29:55.040 --> 00:29:57.139 I wonder how your 979 00:29:57.140 --> 00:29:59.179 work with mapmaking, 980 00:29:59.180 --> 00:30:01.009 and what results you've had 981 00:30:01.010 --> 00:30:02.809 with that, and if you have presented 982 00:30:02.810 --> 00:30:05.569 the work in ways that you think has 983 00:30:05.570 --> 00:30:06.570 addressed that issue. 984 00:30:08.260 --> 00:30:09.099 Oh, golly. 985 00:30:09.100 --> 00:30:11.079 I keep trying, but I feel I 986 00:30:11.080 --> 00:30:13.329 usually fall short. 987 00:30:14.500 --> 00:30:15.640 It's a difficult 988 00:30:16.660 --> 00:30:18.669 quest, actually, to bring 989 00:30:18.670 --> 00:30:20.709 emotion to cartography. 990 00:30:20.710 --> 00:30:22.449 And there are lots of people today 991 00:30:22.450 --> 00:30:24.429 who are working on this problem, 992 00:30:24.430 --> 00:30:26.139 including some very, very fine 993 00:30:26.140 --> 00:30:28.689 professional cartographers. 994 00:30:28.690 --> 00:30:30.879 Cartography in the digital 995 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:33.129 age has a certain 996 00:30:33.130 --> 00:30:35.079 look that is 997 00:30:35.080 --> 00:30:38.289 very crisp and polished. 998 00:30:38.290 --> 00:30:40.929 Usually, we see fairly 999 00:30:40.930 --> 00:30:42.249 sort of - we might even say - 1000 00:30:42.250 --> 00:30:44.229 professional colors. 1001 00:30:44.230 --> 00:30:45.069 They're not too bright. 1002 00:30:45.070 --> 00:30:46.659 They're not too brassy. 1003 00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:48.759 They're not too dark. 1004 00:30:48.760 --> 00:30:51.339 They are clear and scientific. 1005 00:30:51.340 --> 00:30:53.829 All of that works against emotion. 1006 00:30:53.830 --> 00:30:54.830 So 1007 00:30:56.110 --> 00:30:57.969 I would say I 1008 00:30:57.970 --> 00:31:00.039 have not personally ever made 1009 00:31:00.040 --> 00:31:02.109 a map that has the 1010 00:31:02.110 --> 00:31:04.029 deeply expressive qualities that 1011 00:31:04.030 --> 00:31:05.439 I would like. But some of the 1012 00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:07.749 students I've worked with have. 1013 00:31:07.750 --> 00:31:09.459 And one colleague in the 1014 00:31:09.460 --> 00:31:11.289 collaborative, a brilliant 1015 00:31:11.290 --> 00:31:13.119 cartographer and graphic 1016 00:31:13.120 --> 00:31:15.009 thinker, Erik Steiner, 1017 00:31:15.010 --> 00:31:16.119 has. 1018 00:31:16.120 --> 00:31:18.249 Maybe I could try to describe 1019 00:31:18.250 --> 00:31:20.199 Erik's most expressive map. 1020 00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:21.159 Sure. And we could-- you could tell 1021 00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:22.299 us what he did, but also, I think we 1022 00:31:22.300 --> 00:31:24.189 can link to it in the comments 1023 00:31:24.190 --> 00:31:25.869 that go with the-- or in the 1024 00:31:25.870 --> 00:31:27.489 description of the podcast. 1025 00:31:27.490 --> 00:31:28.929 So there will be a way for listeners 1026 00:31:28.930 --> 00:31:30.189 to see that. 1027 00:31:30.190 --> 00:31:31.089 But if you could talk about his 1028 00:31:31.090 --> 00:31:32.739 method and what he did to address 1029 00:31:32.740 --> 00:31:33.740 this issue, that'll be great. 1030 00:31:34.750 --> 00:31:37.239 Right. Well, Erik was working with 1031 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:39.519 wonderful scholar Simone Gigliotti 1032 00:31:39.520 --> 00:31:41.829 and a man named Marc Masurovsky to 1033 00:31:41.830 --> 00:31:44.829 try to map evacuations 1034 00:31:44.830 --> 00:31:46.959 of women out of 1035 00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:48.729 Auschwitz camps. 1036 00:31:48.730 --> 00:31:50.889 This is in January 1945. 1037 00:31:50.890 --> 00:31:51.729 It was cold. 1038 00:31:51.730 --> 00:31:52.929 It was snowy. 1039 00:31:52.930 --> 00:31:54.759 These women had managed 1040 00:31:54.760 --> 00:31:56.079 to survive very difficult 1041 00:31:56.080 --> 00:31:57.339 circumstances. 1042 00:31:57.340 --> 00:31:59.289 But walking out 1043 00:31:59.290 --> 00:32:00.909 in a rush from the camp into the 1044 00:32:00.910 --> 00:32:02.889 snow was a pretty traumatic 1045 00:32:02.890 --> 00:32:03.939 experience. 1046 00:32:03.940 --> 00:32:05.769 And their testimony reflects that. 1047 00:32:05.770 --> 00:32:07.719 So how do you map that 1048 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:08.619 kind of experience? 1049 00:32:08.620 --> 00:32:10.839 Women marching for several days 1050 00:32:10.840 --> 00:32:12.429 through the snow before they're 1051 00:32:12.430 --> 00:32:14.229 allowed any food or rest. 1052 00:32:15.310 --> 00:32:16.749 And they tried conventional 1053 00:32:16.750 --> 00:32:18.579 cartography. They made a map of the 1054 00:32:18.580 --> 00:32:19.479 route. 1055 00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:21.549 And it was a good map, 1056 00:32:21.550 --> 00:32:22.817 but it really didn't say anything, 1057 00:32:22.818 --> 00:32:24.579 except they started here, and they 1058 00:32:24.580 --> 00:32:25.580 ended there. 1059 00:32:26.350 --> 00:32:28.629 Erik was pondering this problem 1060 00:32:28.630 --> 00:32:29.630 one day, rolling 1061 00:32:31.350 --> 00:32:33.309 a piece of rope in his hands or 1062 00:32:33.310 --> 00:32:35.399 a thick string, and 1063 00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:37.289 he just kept working the string, 1064 00:32:37.290 --> 00:32:39.239 and it began to become 1065 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:40.709 something in his hands. 1066 00:32:40.710 --> 00:32:42.509 And he worked it so hard in some 1067 00:32:42.510 --> 00:32:44.399 places it began to fray. 1068 00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:46.289 And then he was thinking about the 1069 00:32:46.290 --> 00:32:47.969 route of one particular group of 1070 00:32:47.970 --> 00:32:50.039 women that he'd studied the most 1071 00:32:50.040 --> 00:32:50.909 closely. 1072 00:32:50.910 --> 00:32:52.589 And then he laid the rope on a piece 1073 00:32:52.590 --> 00:32:54.509 of paper and realized that 1074 00:32:54.510 --> 00:32:56.279 he could make a map out of this 1075 00:32:56.280 --> 00:32:58.259 rope. And so he 1076 00:32:58.260 --> 00:33:00.629 added some color to the paper, 1077 00:33:00.630 --> 00:33:02.545 spots of red, where 1078 00:33:02.546 --> 00:33:04.529 one of the women in the group had 1079 00:33:04.530 --> 00:33:06.119 been shot, and her sister had 1080 00:33:06.120 --> 00:33:07.120 witnessed her murder and 1081 00:33:08.130 --> 00:33:11.069 found quotations from the testimony 1082 00:33:11.070 --> 00:33:12.839 that related to certain places they 1083 00:33:12.840 --> 00:33:14.039 pass through. 1084 00:33:14.040 --> 00:33:15.569 He took a picture of that, and then 1085 00:33:15.570 --> 00:33:16.949 he worked with it further in a 1086 00:33:16.950 --> 00:33:20.009 graphics program, and it became 1087 00:33:20.010 --> 00:33:22.019 a kind of visceral 1088 00:33:22.020 --> 00:33:23.909 picture of the route 1089 00:33:23.910 --> 00:33:25.859 and the women's experiences 1090 00:33:25.860 --> 00:33:27.719 with that string as 1091 00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:29.099 the route. But it's a physical 1092 00:33:29.100 --> 00:33:30.779 object, so it has a different 1093 00:33:30.780 --> 00:33:33.359 quality than that kind of scientific 1094 00:33:33.360 --> 00:33:35.819 computer cartography. 1095 00:33:35.820 --> 00:33:37.709 And that map, which he calls the 1096 00:33:37.710 --> 00:33:40.229 rope of history, was so inspiring 1097 00:33:40.230 --> 00:33:41.699 to us, and I think particularly to 1098 00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:44.069 me personally, that I 1099 00:33:44.070 --> 00:33:45.539 feel like now, for the rest of my 1100 00:33:45.540 --> 00:33:47.759 career, I will be chasing 1101 00:33:47.760 --> 00:33:50.129 the realization of 1102 00:33:50.130 --> 00:33:52.469 or the visualization of 1103 00:33:52.470 --> 00:33:54.479 the emotional realities 1104 00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:56.369 of the Holocaust in different ways. 1105 00:33:56.370 --> 00:33:58.079 There will be another rope map that 1106 00:33:58.080 --> 00:33:59.759 was one of a kind, but there will be 1107 00:33:59.760 --> 00:34:01.559 other one of the kinds that I hope 1108 00:34:01.560 --> 00:34:03.719 accomplish similar sort of goals. 1109 00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.729 Yeah, well, as I said, I can 1110 00:34:05.730 --> 00:34:08.099 link to an image of it, I think, 1111 00:34:08.100 --> 00:34:09.329 and also to some of your students' 1112 00:34:09.330 --> 00:34:10.619 work, which you've shown in some of 1113 00:34:10.620 --> 00:34:11.620 the writing that you've done. 1114 00:34:12.580 --> 00:34:14.009 I would say, just from having seen 1115 00:34:14.010 --> 00:34:15.178 it and even hearing you describe it 1116 00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:16.979 now, it also is something that looks 1117 00:34:16.980 --> 00:34:19.049 to me like it's an art project. 1118 00:34:19.050 --> 00:34:20.539 That's the way it comes out. 1119 00:34:20.540 --> 00:34:21.689 I think if you showed it to a number 1120 00:34:21.690 --> 00:34:23.819 of people, they might assume 1121 00:34:23.820 --> 00:34:25.468 that that's what it was first before 1122 00:34:25.469 --> 00:34:26.729 they assumed it was a map. 1123 00:34:26.730 --> 00:34:28.589 So it's a very interesting zone 1124 00:34:28.590 --> 00:34:29.669 I feel like you're working in that 1125 00:34:29.670 --> 00:34:31.138 does bridge that gap a bit. 1126 00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:32.638 And you write about how creative you 1127 00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:34.468 need to be in doing the kind 1128 00:34:34.469 --> 00:34:35.279 of cartography that you're 1129 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:35.849 describing. 1130 00:34:35.850 --> 00:34:38.069 Well, and collaboration helps. 1131 00:34:38.070 --> 00:34:39.689 So Erik wouldn't have been able to 1132 00:34:39.690 --> 00:34:41.789 make that map without working with 1133 00:34:41.790 --> 00:34:43.529 Simone Gigliotti, who is a 1134 00:34:43.530 --> 00:34:44.999 specialist in the traumatic 1135 00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.158 experience of survivors. 1136 00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:49.259 And right now, I have 1137 00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:51.959 a sort of renewed collaboration 1138 00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:53.218 with an artist. 1139 00:34:53.219 --> 00:34:54.786 His name is Levi Westerfeld. 1140 00:34:55.889 --> 00:34:57.989 He is a 1141 00:34:57.990 --> 00:35:00.479 Dutch French cartographer 1142 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:02.369 who's working in Norway, but he was 1143 00:35:02.370 --> 00:35:03.779 a student of mine at Middlebury 1144 00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:04.589 College. 1145 00:35:04.590 --> 00:35:06.000 In fact, it was working with him 1146 00:35:06.001 --> 00:35:07.829 that helped me come up with the idea 1147 00:35:07.830 --> 00:35:10.319 of inductive visualization. 1148 00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:12.149 Levi is a wonderful 1149 00:35:12.150 --> 00:35:13.679 portrait artist. 1150 00:35:13.680 --> 00:35:15.389 He does beautiful portraits right 1151 00:35:15.390 --> 00:35:16.469 now of 1152 00:35:17.580 --> 00:35:20.129 African refugees in Norway. 1153 00:35:20.130 --> 00:35:21.089 He has a show. 1154 00:35:21.090 --> 00:35:22.769 If you're in Arundel, Norway, you 1155 00:35:22.770 --> 00:35:25.019 can see Levy's portraits. 1156 00:35:25.020 --> 00:35:26.729 But he and I are working together to 1157 00:35:26.730 --> 00:35:28.589 try to find some new ways 1158 00:35:28.590 --> 00:35:29.590 to express 1159 00:35:30.690 --> 00:35:32.819 survivors journeys and experiences 1160 00:35:32.820 --> 00:35:33.809 in the Holocaust. 1161 00:35:33.810 --> 00:35:36.059 So these kinds of 1162 00:35:36.060 --> 00:35:38.040 really rich 1163 00:35:39.750 --> 00:35:41.489 collaborations with people who are 1164 00:35:41.490 --> 00:35:43.529 way outside your own field, 1165 00:35:43.530 --> 00:35:46.079 who have skills that you don't have. 1166 00:35:46.080 --> 00:35:47.549 I find one of the most exciting 1167 00:35:47.550 --> 00:35:49.259 things about this work. 1168 00:35:49.260 --> 00:35:51.629 And it seems like it also is 1169 00:35:51.630 --> 00:35:53.489 a work that-- I mean, 1170 00:35:53.490 --> 00:35:54.419 the collaborations that you're 1171 00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:56.579 talking about are one of the things 1172 00:35:56.580 --> 00:35:58.559 that enable it to produce 1173 00:35:58.560 --> 00:36:00.569 new knowledge about or experience 1174 00:36:00.570 --> 00:36:03.179 of or insights into this 1175 00:36:03.180 --> 00:36:05.819 kind of massive historical event, 1176 00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:06.929 the Holocaust. 1177 00:36:06.930 --> 00:36:09.059 Yes, a part of it is finding 1178 00:36:09.060 --> 00:36:10.829 creative collaborators with whom you 1179 00:36:10.830 --> 00:36:12.209 can be really honest. 1180 00:36:12.210 --> 00:36:13.889 You have to be able to say, "No, 1181 00:36:13.890 --> 00:36:15.809 that doesn't work," or "We're 1182 00:36:15.810 --> 00:36:17.699 not there yet." And 1183 00:36:17.700 --> 00:36:18.659 you have to be able to take 1184 00:36:18.660 --> 00:36:20.729 criticism as well as an important 1185 00:36:20.730 --> 00:36:21.869 part of the process. 1186 00:36:21.870 --> 00:36:23.609 I think the other thing that has 1187 00:36:23.610 --> 00:36:26.309 been a hallmark of 1188 00:36:26.310 --> 00:36:28.439 my group's effective ongoing 1189 00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:29.939 collaboration - we're entering our 1190 00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:31.949 second decade now 1191 00:36:31.950 --> 00:36:33.959 -is that we are 1192 00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:35.909 also honest about 1193 00:36:35.910 --> 00:36:37.559 what questions we haven't answered 1194 00:36:37.560 --> 00:36:38.669 yet. 1195 00:36:38.670 --> 00:36:40.589 So maybe 1196 00:36:40.590 --> 00:36:42.179 some people are just naturally 1197 00:36:42.180 --> 00:36:43.799 restless and always looking for the 1198 00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:45.959 next thing. But you can also 1199 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:48.149 develop a research culture 1200 00:36:48.150 --> 00:36:50.189 where that's part of the work. 1201 00:36:50.190 --> 00:36:52.169 Okay, we've done this, 1202 00:36:52.170 --> 00:36:53.729 but what have we not done? 1203 00:36:53.730 --> 00:36:55.109 And that also means that you should 1204 00:36:55.110 --> 00:36:57.539 always be seeking new critics 1205 00:36:57.540 --> 00:36:59.729 and new audiences 1206 00:36:59.730 --> 00:37:01.619 because if your work matters, 1207 00:37:01.620 --> 00:37:03.119 it should be interesting to lots of 1208 00:37:03.120 --> 00:37:04.349 people. And the more people you 1209 00:37:04.350 --> 00:37:05.579 reach out to, the more different 1210 00:37:05.580 --> 00:37:06.749 kinds of responses you're going to 1211 00:37:06.750 --> 00:37:09.269 get. This all becomes part of 1212 00:37:09.270 --> 00:37:11.819 the generative creativity 1213 00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:13.799 of a long-term collaboration. 1214 00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:14.800 Right. Well, 1215 00:37:16.020 --> 00:37:17.579 I can end just by saying thanks so 1216 00:37:17.580 --> 00:37:19.259 much. I mean, it's exciting to me to 1217 00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:21.209 end to hear you looking forward to 1218 00:37:21.210 --> 00:37:22.689 more work with Holocaust studies 1219 00:37:22.690 --> 00:37:23.579 that you're doing. Because I think some 1220 00:37:23.580 --> 00:37:24.989 of the work that I've learned about 1221 00:37:24.990 --> 00:37:26.519 in preparing to talk with you is 1222 00:37:26.520 --> 00:37:28.139 really interesting and insightful 1223 00:37:28.140 --> 00:37:28.979 and beautiful. 1224 00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:30.379 And so we look forward to more. 1225 00:37:30.380 --> 00:37:31.279 Thank you so much. 1226 00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:32.280 Yeah, thanks. 1227 00:37:37.740 --> 00:37:38.939 That's it for this edition of Being 1228 00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:41.129 Human. This episode was produced by 1229 00:37:41.130 --> 00:37:42.539 Christian Snyder, Humanities Media 1230 00:37:42.540 --> 00:37:43.559 Fellow at the University of 1231 00:37:43.560 --> 00:37:44.429 Pittsburgh. 1232 00:37:44.430 --> 00:37:45.749 Stay tuned next time when my guest 1233 00:37:45.750 --> 00:37:47.339 will be Fred Moten, professor of 1234 00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:49.229 Performance Studies at NYU. 1235 00:37:49.230 --> 00:37:50.230 Thanks for listening.
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