WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.170 --> 00:00:05.369 Hello and welcome to the latest 2 00:00:05.370 --> 00:00:06.779 installment of Being Human from the 3 00:00:06.780 --> 00:00:08.429 University of Pittsburgh. 4 00:00:08.430 --> 00:00:10.049 This series is devoted to exploring 5 00:00:10.050 --> 00:00:11.639 the humanities, their connections to 6 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:13.169 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:13.170 --> 00:00:14.609 in the public world. 8 00:00:14.610 --> 00:00:16.439 I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of 9 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:18.089 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:18.090 --> 00:00:19.919 My guest today is Chris Fynsk, 11 00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:21.449 professor and dean of the Division 12 00:00:21.450 --> 00:00:23.189 of Philosophy, Art, and Critical 13 00:00:23.190 --> 00:00:24.599 Thought at the European Graduate 14 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:25.600 School. 15 00:00:26.100 --> 00:00:27.389 Professor Fenske has published 16 00:00:27.390 --> 00:00:28.889 widely on contemporary European 17 00:00:28.890 --> 00:00:30.839 literature and philosophy. 18 00:00:30.840 --> 00:00:32.279 In his writing, he often takes 19 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:34.109 inspiration from Paul Celan's Bremen 20 00:00:34.110 --> 00:00:35.999 address, which Celan delivered while 21 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:38.639 accepting an award in 1958. 22 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:40.109 In his speech, given against the 23 00:00:40.110 --> 00:00:41.399 backdrop of the violence and 24 00:00:41.400 --> 00:00:43.499 destruction of World War Two, Celan 25 00:00:43.500 --> 00:00:45.239 argues that poems model a kind of 26 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:47.729 open, approachable reality. 27 00:00:47.730 --> 00:00:49.319 Celan hopes that his work helps 28 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:50.639 bring this kind of reality into 29 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:52.469 being and aligns himself with the 30 00:00:52.470 --> 00:00:54.299 efforts of younger poets who work 31 00:00:54.300 --> 00:00:56.219 towards the same goals. 32 00:00:56.220 --> 00:00:58.289 Closing his address, Celan offers 33 00:00:58.290 --> 00:00:59.669 a striking description of the work 34 00:00:59.670 --> 00:01:00.800 of poetry as "efforts 35 00:01:01.950 --> 00:01:03.779 of those who with manmade 36 00:01:03.780 --> 00:01:06.149 stars flying overhead, unsheltered 37 00:01:06.150 --> 00:01:07.559 even by the traditional tent of the 38 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:09.509 sky, exposed in 39 00:01:09.510 --> 00:01:11.729 an unsuspected, terrifying way, 40 00:01:11.730 --> 00:01:13.739 carry their existence into language 41 00:01:13.740 --> 00:01:15.659 wracked by reality and in search 42 00:01:15.660 --> 00:01:17.553 of it." Fynsk 43 00:01:17.554 --> 00:01:19.049 cites this passage often and has 44 00:01:19.050 --> 00:01:20.729 dedicated his work to exploring and 45 00:01:20.730 --> 00:01:22.259 enacting the possibilities offered 46 00:01:22.260 --> 00:01:23.819 by the moment of terrifying exposure 47 00:01:23.820 --> 00:01:24.820 that Celan describes. His 48 00:01:25.800 --> 00:01:27.359 books on Martin Heidegger, Maurice 49 00:01:27.360 --> 00:01:28.919 Blanchot, and others are rightly 50 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:30.029 applauded for their deep and 51 00:01:30.030 --> 00:01:31.559 intelligent analysis. 52 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:33.269 But readers also get the sense that 53 00:01:33.270 --> 00:01:34.349 Fynsk is working together with the 54 00:01:34.350 --> 00:01:36.329 writers he discusses, much as 55 00:01:36.330 --> 00:01:37.289 Celan hopes to work with younger 56 00:01:37.290 --> 00:01:38.290 poets. Fynsk's 2004 defense 57 00:01:40.260 --> 00:01:41.999 of the humanities, titled The Claim 58 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:43.409 of Language: A Case for the 59 00:01:43.410 --> 00:01:45.629 Humanities, is no different. 60 00:01:45.630 --> 00:01:47.189 In the book, Fynsk argues that the 61 00:01:47.190 --> 00:01:48.689 humanities should stake their claim 62 00:01:48.690 --> 00:01:50.489 to value on their unique ability to 63 00:01:50.490 --> 00:01:52.139 interrogate language as the medium 64 00:01:52.140 --> 00:01:53.699 of human thought. 65 00:01:53.700 --> 00:01:55.049 While this may seem aggressively 66 00:01:55.050 --> 00:01:56.879 theoretical to some, the results are 67 00:01:56.880 --> 00:01:58.319 characteristically expansive and 68 00:01:58.320 --> 00:02:00.209 affirmative and offer an important, 69 00:02:00.210 --> 00:02:02.309 if underappreciated, contribution 70 00:02:02.310 --> 00:02:03.539 to the defense of the humanities 71 00:02:03.540 --> 00:02:04.540 genre. 72 00:02:05.370 --> 00:02:06.959 I began our conversation by asking 73 00:02:06.960 --> 00:02:08.399 Chris to recall the occasion for the 74 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:10.138 book and what made him feel that it 75 00:02:10.139 --> 00:02:11.449 was important to make this argument 76 00:02:11.450 --> 00:02:12.660 at that time. 77 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:17.139 Yes. 78 00:02:17.140 --> 00:02:19.749 I mean, there is a political 79 00:02:19.750 --> 00:02:20.750 intent here, but 80 00:02:22.740 --> 00:02:23.740 in a certain sense, I'm 81 00:02:25.050 --> 00:02:27.449 taking a bit of a 82 00:02:27.450 --> 00:02:29.039 sideways step with regard to the 83 00:02:29.040 --> 00:02:30.419 kinds of politics that were being 84 00:02:30.420 --> 00:02:31.619 pursued in the humanities at that 85 00:02:31.620 --> 00:02:32.620 moment. 86 00:02:33.420 --> 00:02:35.489 And this has to do with the 87 00:02:36.600 --> 00:02:37.800 resurgence of 88 00:02:39.390 --> 00:02:41.819 cultural politics and 89 00:02:41.820 --> 00:02:43.979 identity politics, multiculturalism, 90 00:02:43.980 --> 00:02:46.079 and so forth, which I was 91 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:48.539 completely with through those years. 92 00:02:48.540 --> 00:02:50.379 But with 93 00:02:50.380 --> 00:02:52.349 the real sort 94 00:02:52.350 --> 00:02:54.779 of ascendancy of 95 00:02:54.780 --> 00:02:56.309 cultural theory and cultural 96 00:02:56.310 --> 00:02:58.139 politics in the eighties and 97 00:02:58.140 --> 00:02:59.969 nineties, the kind of work 98 00:02:59.970 --> 00:03:01.949 that I had done and that I'd started 99 00:03:01.950 --> 00:03:02.999 out doing in the seventies and 100 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:05.009 eighties, which was more in 101 00:03:05.010 --> 00:03:06.329 the area of continental philosophy 102 00:03:06.330 --> 00:03:08.789 and theory informed by that, that 103 00:03:08.790 --> 00:03:10.679 work was slowly pushed 104 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:11.680 aside. And 105 00:03:12.720 --> 00:03:14.159 to me, it felt as though something 106 00:03:14.160 --> 00:03:15.389 was being lost in that. 107 00:03:15.390 --> 00:03:17.399 And part of what was being 108 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:19.229 lost was the capacity to 109 00:03:19.230 --> 00:03:21.179 address the 110 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:23.579 status of the humanities themselves. 111 00:03:23.580 --> 00:03:24.599 It seemed to me that with a 112 00:03:24.600 --> 00:03:26.639 political turn we were seeing and 113 00:03:26.640 --> 00:03:28.619 the shape that it was taking, 114 00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:30.119 the specificity of the humanities 115 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:31.619 was being lost in some measure. 116 00:03:31.620 --> 00:03:33.839 I didn't see why we couldn't 117 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:35.009 be calling what we were doing, 118 00:03:35.010 --> 00:03:36.659 insofar as it was politically 119 00:03:36.660 --> 00:03:39.059 directed, social science. 120 00:03:39.060 --> 00:03:40.889 And so, I was trying to step back a 121 00:03:40.890 --> 00:03:41.729 little bit and say, "Well, what is 122 00:03:41.730 --> 00:03:43.079 it that the humanities bring to 123 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:44.080 bear?" 124 00:03:45.830 --> 00:03:48.499 It links to a very long-standing 125 00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:50.599 interest in institutions 126 00:03:50.600 --> 00:03:52.729 and the politics 127 00:03:52.730 --> 00:03:53.730 of philosophy. 128 00:03:54.980 --> 00:03:56.119 That essay that I published on 129 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:57.949 Granel, which is the one 130 00:03:57.950 --> 00:03:58.950 that you mentioned, and 131 00:03:59.960 --> 00:04:01.069 I think it's called the Politics of 132 00:04:01.070 --> 00:04:03.019 Philosophy, that was 133 00:04:03.020 --> 00:04:05.359 written quite some time before. 134 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.009 And what I published there is 135 00:04:07.010 --> 00:04:08.869 actually an auto-critique because 136 00:04:08.870 --> 00:04:10.699 I came to understand that the 137 00:04:10.700 --> 00:04:12.049 notion of critique that I was 138 00:04:12.050 --> 00:04:13.939 putting forward there of sort of 139 00:04:13.940 --> 00:04:15.769 a philosophically informed political 140 00:04:15.770 --> 00:04:17.629 critique really needed 141 00:04:17.630 --> 00:04:18.768 some adjustment. 142 00:04:18.769 --> 00:04:20.659 And so, I was 143 00:04:20.660 --> 00:04:22.129 trying to rethink the position of 144 00:04:22.130 --> 00:04:23.130 the critic 145 00:04:25.580 --> 00:04:26.580 from my perspective. 146 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:28.680 But that essay, 147 00:04:29.630 --> 00:04:31.759 I think that goes back to 1978. 148 00:04:31.760 --> 00:04:32.760 And 149 00:04:34.010 --> 00:04:35.809 that essay, in turn, picks up on an 150 00:04:35.810 --> 00:04:37.639 essay that I had written quite early 151 00:04:37.640 --> 00:04:40.069 on in response to 152 00:04:40.070 --> 00:04:41.070 Derrida's efforts in 153 00:04:42.590 --> 00:04:43.590 something he called 154 00:04:47.313 --> 00:04:47.345 le Groupe de recherches sur l'enseignement philosophique, so the GREPH it 155 00:04:47.346 --> 00:04:48.859 was called in short. And that was a 156 00:04:48.860 --> 00:04:51.199 very specific initiative in France 157 00:04:51.200 --> 00:04:54.019 in 1975, 76 158 00:04:54.020 --> 00:04:56.629 to address educational reform. 159 00:04:56.630 --> 00:04:57.630 And I was quite, I might say, 160 00:04:59.300 --> 00:05:01.429 influenced or moved by that. 161 00:05:01.430 --> 00:05:02.839 I was really struck by the way in 162 00:05:02.840 --> 00:05:04.699 which this was an effort 163 00:05:04.700 --> 00:05:06.199 to address the institution of 164 00:05:06.200 --> 00:05:08.179 philosophy, not just the 165 00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:09.180 philosophical positions or ideological 166 00:05:11.930 --> 00:05:13.169 perspectives. 167 00:05:13.170 --> 00:05:15.139 And at the same time, 168 00:05:15.140 --> 00:05:17.629 I was working closely with people 169 00:05:17.630 --> 00:05:19.459 who weren't so much in the 170 00:05:19.460 --> 00:05:20.590 Derridean framework but were more 171 00:05:22.700 --> 00:05:24.441 associated with people like Ranciere 172 00:05:24.442 --> 00:05:25.442 and Foucault. 173 00:05:25.790 --> 00:05:27.829 And they were a bit more scrappy. 174 00:05:30.230 --> 00:05:31.305 They were a group to call themselves 175 00:05:31.306 --> 00:05:33.139 "turbo prof" because 176 00:05:33.140 --> 00:05:34.879 they were riding on trains to 177 00:05:34.880 --> 00:05:36.019 distant universities. 178 00:05:37.220 --> 00:05:38.689 And they had a very 179 00:05:39.710 --> 00:05:41.569 hard perspective on some of these 180 00:05:41.570 --> 00:05:43.099 questions. And I was working with 181 00:05:43.100 --> 00:05:44.100 them as well. So 182 00:05:45.150 --> 00:05:45.959 I guess what I'm saying-- you're 183 00:05:45.960 --> 00:05:47.670 asking about why I did this. 184 00:05:49.170 --> 00:05:50.170 From 185 00:05:52.320 --> 00:05:54.089 almost the beginning of my work as a 186 00:05:54.090 --> 00:05:55.259 graduate student, I became 187 00:05:55.260 --> 00:05:56.099 interested in the question of 188 00:05:56.100 --> 00:05:57.100 institutions. 189 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:00.479 And I believed from 190 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.729 that first experience in 75, 191 00:06:02.730 --> 00:06:05.039 76 that you can't 192 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:08.099 hope to pursue an effective 193 00:06:08.100 --> 00:06:09.809 thinking if you don't address the 194 00:06:09.810 --> 00:06:10.970 conditions in which you're doing it. 195 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:14.339 And that's why-- I think I've said 196 00:06:14.340 --> 00:06:15.989 to you before. And that's why I do 197 00:06:15.990 --> 00:06:16.990 so much administration. 198 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:20.039 I mean, there are some wonderful 199 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:21.089 things about administration, but a 200 00:06:21.090 --> 00:06:22.919 lot of it is simply a real 201 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:23.849 pain. 202 00:06:23.850 --> 00:06:24.899 Nevertheless, I think it's 203 00:06:24.900 --> 00:06:26.459 absolutely essential because if 204 00:06:26.460 --> 00:06:28.349 you're not attending to 205 00:06:28.350 --> 00:06:30.329 the conditions in which teaching and 206 00:06:30.330 --> 00:06:31.669 writing and thinking are 207 00:06:32.790 --> 00:06:34.859 taking place, then you'll 208 00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:36.419 find very quickly that those acts 209 00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:37.889 are neutralized. 210 00:06:37.890 --> 00:06:39.839 And this is something that 211 00:06:41.130 --> 00:06:42.899 I worry about a lot in North 212 00:06:42.900 --> 00:06:44.759 America. And perhaps 213 00:06:44.760 --> 00:06:46.649 it has to do with the 214 00:06:46.650 --> 00:06:48.299 place of the university in the 215 00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:49.300 culture 216 00:06:50.700 --> 00:06:51.989 and then the way the universities 217 00:06:51.990 --> 00:06:53.519 themselves are structured. 218 00:06:53.520 --> 00:06:55.709 Whereas in Europe what I experienced 219 00:06:55.710 --> 00:06:57.509 when I was in Europe was an 220 00:06:57.510 --> 00:06:58.979 insertion of the university in the 221 00:06:58.980 --> 00:07:00.569 broader culture, which was very 222 00:07:00.570 --> 00:07:02.369 different from what we have seen in 223 00:07:02.370 --> 00:07:03.370 North America. I'm 224 00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:06.539 telling you this because it bears 225 00:07:06.540 --> 00:07:07.349 upon this question of the 226 00:07:07.350 --> 00:07:08.350 humanities. 227 00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:11.080 I mean, when I was working in 228 00:07:12.300 --> 00:07:13.970 Paris in 1975-76, 229 00:07:15.210 --> 00:07:16.649 and then I returned to Strasbourg in 230 00:07:16.650 --> 00:07:17.650 79, the 231 00:07:18.990 --> 00:07:20.249 professors that I was working with 232 00:07:20.250 --> 00:07:21.269 didn't think of themselves as 233 00:07:21.270 --> 00:07:22.709 academics. 234 00:07:22.710 --> 00:07:24.479 They understood themselves to be 235 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:26.609 working in partnership with writers, 236 00:07:26.610 --> 00:07:28.619 theater, people, musicians, 237 00:07:28.620 --> 00:07:30.479 artists of various kinds. 238 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.609 The academic 239 00:07:32.610 --> 00:07:33.610 job was a day job. They 240 00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:35.729 would give their classes - and it 241 00:07:35.730 --> 00:07:37.379 was obviously very important - give 242 00:07:37.380 --> 00:07:38.699 their lectures. They write from that 243 00:07:38.700 --> 00:07:39.779 basis. 244 00:07:39.780 --> 00:07:41.669 But being a professor 245 00:07:41.670 --> 00:07:43.139 at this or that institution was not 246 00:07:43.140 --> 00:07:44.099 significant for them. 247 00:07:44.100 --> 00:07:45.779 And they certainly wouldn't tout it. 248 00:07:45.780 --> 00:07:47.759 And the ones who did were considered 249 00:07:47.760 --> 00:07:49.199 a little bit gauche. 250 00:07:49.200 --> 00:07:50.200 And 251 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:52.619 not gauche in the good sense. 252 00:07:52.620 --> 00:07:53.620 So 253 00:07:58.110 --> 00:07:59.110 I was 254 00:08:00.660 --> 00:08:01.660 very moved by 255 00:08:03.390 --> 00:08:04.649 the way in which I saw the 256 00:08:04.650 --> 00:08:06.659 humanities being pursued 257 00:08:06.660 --> 00:08:07.660 in Europe. 258 00:08:08.490 --> 00:08:10.619 I had some exposure to literary 259 00:08:10.620 --> 00:08:12.119 theory and philosophy as an 260 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:13.829 undergraduate and then in the 261 00:08:13.830 --> 00:08:14.969 beginning of my graduate studies. 262 00:08:14.970 --> 00:08:16.979 But when I went to Europe, 263 00:08:16.980 --> 00:08:19.139 I saw how this could be part of a 264 00:08:19.140 --> 00:08:20.759 much broader cultural 265 00:08:22.110 --> 00:08:23.399 scene. 266 00:08:23.400 --> 00:08:24.749 And at the same time, I saw how this 267 00:08:24.750 --> 00:08:25.750 could be part of 268 00:08:27.210 --> 00:08:28.920 a different understanding of, 269 00:08:30.060 --> 00:08:32.279 I suppose, intellectual life in 270 00:08:32.280 --> 00:08:33.538 or the construction of intellectual 271 00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:35.939 life in the academy 272 00:08:35.940 --> 00:08:36.918 as well as beyond it. 273 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:38.338 And there, I 274 00:08:39.900 --> 00:08:41.039 want to add something because 275 00:08:42.299 --> 00:08:44.129 what really moved me in 276 00:08:44.130 --> 00:08:45.179 modern French thought 277 00:08:46.260 --> 00:08:48.569 was the postwar initiative 278 00:08:48.570 --> 00:08:50.459 to really address 279 00:08:50.460 --> 00:08:52.619 the totality of social experience. 280 00:08:52.620 --> 00:08:53.620 And this 281 00:08:54.510 --> 00:08:56.640 is even before structuralism, 282 00:08:57.690 --> 00:08:58.624 the work of people like Lévi-Strauss 283 00:08:58.625 --> 00:08:59.625 or 284 00:09:01.470 --> 00:09:03.329 Leroi-Gourhan, various figures in 285 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:04.779 anthropology and 286 00:09:06.300 --> 00:09:07.550 political philosophy, Althusser 287 00:09:07.551 --> 00:09:08.969 comes out of this, although he was 288 00:09:08.970 --> 00:09:10.049 certainly structuralist in 289 00:09:10.050 --> 00:09:11.050 orientation. There 290 00:09:13.290 --> 00:09:14.249 was an effort to address the 291 00:09:14.250 --> 00:09:16.079 totality of social experience. 292 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:18.119 And you couldn't 293 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:19.259 take up the question of literature 294 00:09:19.260 --> 00:09:21.179 without taking up questions 295 00:09:21.180 --> 00:09:23.099 relating to political philosophy 296 00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:25.349 or anthropology 297 00:09:25.350 --> 00:09:26.350 or any number of other fields. 298 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:29.669 Questions were always immediately 299 00:09:29.670 --> 00:09:30.697 moved toward 300 00:09:31.830 --> 00:09:33.239 this broader perspective. 301 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:35.099 And to pursue literature, you had 302 00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:35.969 to address the question of the 303 00:09:35.970 --> 00:09:37.859 meaning of literature or in 304 00:09:37.860 --> 00:09:39.959 the same thing across the board. 305 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:42.179 So when I came 306 00:09:42.180 --> 00:09:44.189 to the scene, post-structuralism 307 00:09:44.190 --> 00:09:46.139 had already sort of opened 308 00:09:46.140 --> 00:09:47.140 a breach 309 00:09:48.150 --> 00:09:49.919 in that scientific endeavor of 310 00:09:49.920 --> 00:09:50.969 structuralism. 311 00:09:50.970 --> 00:09:52.949 But even post-structuralism 312 00:09:52.950 --> 00:09:55.109 in those years was 313 00:09:55.110 --> 00:09:57.239 addressed to thinking 314 00:09:57.240 --> 00:09:59.099 the totality of social experience. 315 00:09:59.100 --> 00:10:00.784 And I use the word cautiously, but 316 00:10:00.785 --> 00:10:03.719 there's an early 317 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:05.399 interview with Derrida where he says 318 00:10:05.400 --> 00:10:06.839 he's trying to think the greatest 319 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:07.840 totality. And 320 00:10:10.020 --> 00:10:11.020 so that question of 321 00:10:11.910 --> 00:10:13.889 the whole of social experience has 322 00:10:13.890 --> 00:10:14.890 sort of guided 323 00:10:17.510 --> 00:10:19.329 my ambitions with respect to the 324 00:10:19.330 --> 00:10:20.699 humanities. I like to see the 325 00:10:20.700 --> 00:10:22.649 humanities in terms of what they can 326 00:10:22.650 --> 00:10:24.659 contribute to those questions. 327 00:10:24.660 --> 00:10:26.189 And that's why I immediately take it 328 00:10:26.190 --> 00:10:28.019 in a cross-disciplinary 329 00:10:28.020 --> 00:10:28.859 perspective. 330 00:10:28.860 --> 00:10:30.869 Yeah. I mean, there's a lot in 331 00:10:30.870 --> 00:10:32.699 that I'd love to pick 332 00:10:32.700 --> 00:10:35.399 up on and follow through. 333 00:10:35.400 --> 00:10:37.289 Maybe the first thing 334 00:10:38.370 --> 00:10:40.229 will be to 335 00:10:40.230 --> 00:10:41.230 think about 336 00:10:42.930 --> 00:10:43.979 what you were mentioning about kind 337 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:46.079 of the specificity of the humanities 338 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:48.059 being lost and that being something 339 00:10:48.060 --> 00:10:49.769 you were trying to examine in the 340 00:10:49.770 --> 00:10:52.109 claim of language and think that 341 00:10:52.110 --> 00:10:53.999 what would happen if we 342 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:55.649 regained it. What would it mean to 343 00:10:55.650 --> 00:10:56.789 regain it? And that's the kind of 344 00:10:56.790 --> 00:10:59.609 the question that I see 345 00:10:59.610 --> 00:11:01.649 being at the kind of the heart 346 00:11:01.650 --> 00:11:02.729 of the work here is what would it 347 00:11:02.730 --> 00:11:04.289 mean to renew the attention to 348 00:11:04.290 --> 00:11:05.849 language, renew the question of 349 00:11:05.850 --> 00:11:07.739 language for the humanities there? 350 00:11:07.740 --> 00:11:08.669 And I wonder if you can talk a 351 00:11:08.670 --> 00:11:10.739 little bit about that as 352 00:11:10.740 --> 00:11:12.269 a guiding question for the claim of 353 00:11:12.270 --> 00:11:14.219 language, like why was 354 00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:15.719 that your guiding question, renewing 355 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:16.649 that attention to language? 356 00:11:16.650 --> 00:11:17.519 And what would it allow it-- what 357 00:11:17.520 --> 00:11:19.379 did it allow you to do in the essay? 358 00:11:21.220 --> 00:11:22.220 Well. 359 00:11:23.290 --> 00:11:24.969 I suppose, again, this has a lot to 360 00:11:24.970 --> 00:11:25.879 do with my training. 361 00:11:25.880 --> 00:11:26.880 I 362 00:11:29.010 --> 00:11:31.439 was doing my 363 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:33.359 graduate studies in the seventies 364 00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:36.629 and then going into 365 00:11:36.630 --> 00:11:38.699 the early eighties, I was working 366 00:11:38.700 --> 00:11:40.979 closely with people in 367 00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:42.839 France who were 368 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:44.190 associated with deconstruction 369 00:11:46.830 --> 00:11:47.830 and psychoanalysis. And 370 00:11:48.910 --> 00:11:51.509 there, in reference to people like 371 00:11:51.510 --> 00:11:53.339 Foucault and Derrida or Lacan, the 372 00:11:53.340 --> 00:11:54.299 question was language. 373 00:11:54.300 --> 00:11:55.300 So I 374 00:11:56.940 --> 00:11:57.719 was trained in that way. 375 00:11:57.720 --> 00:11:59.639 And as I undertook my 376 00:11:59.640 --> 00:12:00.640 own work, 377 00:12:02.220 --> 00:12:03.269 specifically with regard to 378 00:12:03.270 --> 00:12:04.979 Heidegger at the outset, but I very 379 00:12:04.980 --> 00:12:06.839 quickly understood that what was 380 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:08.789 really speaking 381 00:12:08.790 --> 00:12:09.779 to me in all of this was the 382 00:12:09.780 --> 00:12:10.780 question of language. 383 00:12:11.610 --> 00:12:14.429 But language, as I was 384 00:12:14.430 --> 00:12:16.679 attending to it was, 385 00:12:16.680 --> 00:12:18.209 was-- well, the question of language 386 00:12:18.210 --> 00:12:20.039 as I was attending to it was sort of 387 00:12:20.040 --> 00:12:22.087 shunted aside as 388 00:12:22.088 --> 00:12:23.088 cultural 389 00:12:24.030 --> 00:12:25.439 analysis came to the fore. 390 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:27.389 And you had an emphasis on semiotics 391 00:12:27.390 --> 00:12:29.249 and forms of interpretation 392 00:12:29.250 --> 00:12:31.079 which were analyzing the play 393 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:32.080 of the signifier and 394 00:12:35.130 --> 00:12:36.989 how language was constructing 395 00:12:36.990 --> 00:12:38.909 reality and so forth. 396 00:12:38.910 --> 00:12:40.769 Whereas the 397 00:12:40.770 --> 00:12:42.419 question that I had tried to address 398 00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:45.329 was the question of the relation 399 00:12:45.330 --> 00:12:47.519 between human being and language. 400 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:50.759 And that 401 00:12:50.760 --> 00:12:52.829 question, it's a very difficult 402 00:12:52.830 --> 00:12:53.830 question. 403 00:12:54.210 --> 00:12:56.099 I allude at one point in this text 404 00:12:56.100 --> 00:12:57.100 to 405 00:12:58.290 --> 00:12:59.290 Foucault's remark near the 406 00:13:00.660 --> 00:13:01.660 Les Mots et les choses, the Order of Things. 407 00:13:02.670 --> 00:13:04.709 He says, "thought 408 00:13:04.710 --> 00:13:06.659 will have to take one of two paths. 409 00:13:06.660 --> 00:13:07.839 Either it goes in the direction of 410 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:09.125 the question of language, or it goes 411 00:13:10.140 --> 00:13:11.639 in the direction of-- 412 00:13:11.640 --> 00:13:12.359 Human. 413 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:13.889 The human existence." And 414 00:13:15.900 --> 00:13:17.789 my answer to that here is that, in 415 00:13:17.790 --> 00:13:19.919 fact, I think Foucault missed 416 00:13:19.920 --> 00:13:21.509 what he was taking from Heidegger 417 00:13:21.510 --> 00:13:23.519 here, which is that you can't 418 00:13:23.520 --> 00:13:24.749 divorce the one question from the 419 00:13:24.750 --> 00:13:25.709 other. 420 00:13:25.710 --> 00:13:28.139 And so, I was trying to recover 421 00:13:28.140 --> 00:13:29.140 that - I'm not going to say that - that 422 00:13:33.030 --> 00:13:35.429 bridging or rather that necessity 423 00:13:35.430 --> 00:13:38.069 of thinking how language, 424 00:13:38.070 --> 00:13:40.019 as Foucault tries 425 00:13:40.020 --> 00:13:42.209 to think it needs 426 00:13:42.210 --> 00:13:44.429 something like a human 427 00:13:44.430 --> 00:13:46.529 enunciation to occur. 428 00:13:48.040 --> 00:13:49.539 So I was trying to-- I thought that 429 00:13:49.540 --> 00:13:51.309 I saw a way of recovering the 430 00:13:51.310 --> 00:13:53.109 question of the human in this 431 00:13:54.880 --> 00:13:56.620 and thereby possibly 432 00:13:58.510 --> 00:13:59.919 reconnecting with the question of 433 00:13:59.920 --> 00:14:00.920 the humanities. 434 00:14:02.350 --> 00:14:03.429 With regard to the question of 435 00:14:03.430 --> 00:14:05.289 language, at the same time, trained 436 00:14:05.290 --> 00:14:07.389 as I was, I understood 437 00:14:07.390 --> 00:14:09.159 that language was the material of my 438 00:14:09.160 --> 00:14:10.339 work. Right? 439 00:14:10.340 --> 00:14:12.189 I find it still 440 00:14:12.190 --> 00:14:14.169 amazing that this is not a 441 00:14:14.170 --> 00:14:15.399 basic assumption for people in 442 00:14:15.400 --> 00:14:17.079 literature or philosophy or 443 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:18.279 psychoanalysis or any of these 444 00:14:18.280 --> 00:14:19.359 fields because, in fact, they're 445 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:20.439 working through text or they're 446 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:22.209 working with the spoken word. 447 00:14:22.210 --> 00:14:23.210 And 448 00:14:24.130 --> 00:14:25.130 the problem is, I think that 449 00:14:26.620 --> 00:14:27.459 my view has been that the 450 00:14:27.460 --> 00:14:29.559 socio-political agenda at work 451 00:14:29.560 --> 00:14:31.569 in the humanities, which I 452 00:14:31.570 --> 00:14:32.979 think is tremendously important I 453 00:14:32.980 --> 00:14:35.379 don't mean to criticize, but 454 00:14:35.380 --> 00:14:37.359 it has drawn attention away from 455 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:39.459 the materiality of 456 00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:40.460 these forms of creation, 457 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.609 research, reflection, 458 00:14:44.610 --> 00:14:46.559 and toward the, you might 459 00:14:46.560 --> 00:14:48.000 say, toward the meaning 460 00:14:50.160 --> 00:14:52.559 in a context that's defined by 461 00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:53.819 sociopolitical imperatives. 462 00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:55.919 And very quickly, one turns 463 00:14:55.920 --> 00:14:58.559 away from the more ambiguous, 464 00:14:58.560 --> 00:15:00.749 the more complex dimensions of 465 00:15:00.750 --> 00:15:02.099 the text. I'm saying things that 466 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:03.539 everybody certainly 467 00:15:05.100 --> 00:15:07.079 will know and appreciate 468 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:08.647 or has answers to. But nevertheless, 469 00:15:10.020 --> 00:15:10.949 it was in that context. And I 470 00:15:10.950 --> 00:15:12.929 thought, "Well, we really must 471 00:15:12.930 --> 00:15:14.309 attend to what distinguishes the 472 00:15:14.310 --> 00:15:16.469 humanities as forms 473 00:15:16.470 --> 00:15:17.669 of practice". 474 00:15:17.670 --> 00:15:18.670 And it seemed to me 475 00:15:21.090 --> 00:15:22.439 that what makes that distinction is 476 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:24.359 the way we in humanities 477 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:26.279 relate to language and 478 00:15:26.280 --> 00:15:28.199 work with it, how we write with 479 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:30.059 it or produce 480 00:15:30.060 --> 00:15:31.649 it in various ways. 481 00:15:31.650 --> 00:15:32.650 And 482 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:35.789 for that reason, it was necessary to 483 00:15:35.790 --> 00:15:37.919 move away somewhat from 484 00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:40.439 the sort of theoretical 485 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:42.210 construction of 486 00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:44.579 a kind of, say, the approach to 487 00:15:44.580 --> 00:15:46.709 sociopolitical questions and 488 00:15:46.710 --> 00:15:48.089 towards a different kind of 489 00:15:48.090 --> 00:15:50.099 engagement with texts and 490 00:15:50.100 --> 00:15:52.259 with the practice of texts or 491 00:15:52.260 --> 00:15:53.909 the performance of texts. 492 00:15:53.910 --> 00:15:55.739 And so I was calling for 493 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:57.599 a different way of 494 00:15:57.600 --> 00:15:59.729 practicing critical thought. 495 00:15:59.730 --> 00:16:01.182 And again, 496 00:16:03.450 --> 00:16:05.339 I didn't want to do this 497 00:16:05.340 --> 00:16:07.379 in opposition to two other 498 00:16:08.520 --> 00:16:10.709 practices. I'm very much a proponent 499 00:16:10.710 --> 00:16:12.029 of the idea that we should let a 500 00:16:12.030 --> 00:16:13.030 thousand flowers bloom. 501 00:16:14.490 --> 00:16:16.859 But it did seem to me that questions 502 00:16:16.860 --> 00:16:18.299 and approaches to questions were 503 00:16:18.300 --> 00:16:20.189 being lost by not 504 00:16:20.190 --> 00:16:21.359 attending to this question of 505 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:21.839 language. 506 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:22.840 Yeah. 507 00:16:23.770 --> 00:16:25.679 So thinking about language and 508 00:16:25.680 --> 00:16:26.680 the humanities, 509 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:29.759 one thing that's 510 00:16:29.760 --> 00:16:30.929 important for you and that you 511 00:16:30.930 --> 00:16:32.879 mentioned a few times in the essay, 512 00:16:32.880 --> 00:16:34.559 The Claim of Language, is that 513 00:16:34.560 --> 00:16:36.689 you're talking about language, 514 00:16:36.690 --> 00:16:38.579 not just as language-- people who 515 00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:39.419 are listening here might think we're 516 00:16:39.420 --> 00:16:40.439 just talking about literature, but 517 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:41.429 we're not. You're talking about the 518 00:16:41.430 --> 00:16:42.449 humanities. You're talking about 519 00:16:42.450 --> 00:16:44.129 dance and performance and music and 520 00:16:44.130 --> 00:16:45.179 all these things. Can you talk about 521 00:16:45.180 --> 00:16:47.399 language in that broad sense 522 00:16:47.400 --> 00:16:48.899 and how it encompasses all of those 523 00:16:48.900 --> 00:16:50.699 different kinds of fields and thus 524 00:16:50.700 --> 00:16:52.619 what we know of as the humanities? 525 00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:53.620 Yes, yes. Today, 526 00:16:58.670 --> 00:17:00.229 I wouldn't use the word in language 527 00:17:00.230 --> 00:17:01.099 in the same way. 528 00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:02.629 Interesting. 529 00:17:02.630 --> 00:17:04.639 Precisely in order to 530 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:06.078 avoid that kind of possible 531 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:07.489 misapprehension you're describing. 532 00:17:09.230 --> 00:17:10.519 Because as soon as you say language, 533 00:17:10.520 --> 00:17:11.358 you think communication. 534 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:13.249 You think linguistics. 535 00:17:13.250 --> 00:17:15.459 Whereas I'm 536 00:17:15.460 --> 00:17:17.242 constantly trying to move back to, 537 00:17:17.243 --> 00:17:18.243 well, 538 00:17:21.030 --> 00:17:22.259 what Heidegger called the essence of 539 00:17:22.260 --> 00:17:23.260 language or Foucault, who 540 00:17:24.390 --> 00:17:25.769 talked about the nature of language. 541 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:28.289 I'm talking about the presence of 542 00:17:28.290 --> 00:17:30.179 language and what it means 543 00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:31.260 that language should occur 544 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:33.460 and what it is. 545 00:17:34.410 --> 00:17:34.829 It draws forth language. 546 00:17:34.830 --> 00:17:35.999 Yeah. 547 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.020 I'm talking about language in an 548 00:17:37.021 --> 00:17:39.119 ontological level and an existential 549 00:17:39.120 --> 00:17:40.169 level. 550 00:17:40.170 --> 00:17:41.170 So 551 00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:44.249 I start to refer more to symbolic 552 00:17:44.250 --> 00:17:46.109 practices today, even though I don't 553 00:17:46.110 --> 00:17:47.103 really like that word. 554 00:17:47.104 --> 00:17:48.929 The symbol is problematic 555 00:17:48.930 --> 00:17:49.930 to me. And 556 00:17:51.150 --> 00:17:52.679 I also think it's really terribly 557 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:54.059 important to attend to the 558 00:17:54.060 --> 00:17:56.069 specificity of these forms. 559 00:17:56.070 --> 00:17:58.109 I certainly see 560 00:17:58.110 --> 00:18:00.419 dance as language, 561 00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:03.449 but it's not a signifying language. 562 00:18:03.450 --> 00:18:05.459 It engages 563 00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:06.659 signification in a different way. 564 00:18:06.660 --> 00:18:08.759 I see the images really introducing 565 00:18:08.760 --> 00:18:10.919 some very big 566 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.049 questions that cannot be approached 567 00:18:13.050 --> 00:18:15.029 by linguistics or are 568 00:18:15.030 --> 00:18:16.139 approached inadequately by 569 00:18:16.140 --> 00:18:17.637 linguistics. So, yeah. 570 00:18:17.638 --> 00:18:19.469 I think I would prefer symbolic 571 00:18:19.470 --> 00:18:21.329 form. But again, 572 00:18:21.330 --> 00:18:23.339 when someone studying 573 00:18:23.340 --> 00:18:25.319 dance engages 574 00:18:25.320 --> 00:18:27.329 dance, they are looking 575 00:18:27.330 --> 00:18:28.776 at the schemata of movements, and 576 00:18:29.820 --> 00:18:31.259 I'm using the word schemata because I'm 577 00:18:31.260 --> 00:18:32.489 working on that right now, but some 578 00:18:32.490 --> 00:18:33.490 rhythms. 579 00:18:34.110 --> 00:18:36.089 But the use of space 580 00:18:36.090 --> 00:18:37.709 and time, occupation of it, and 581 00:18:39.750 --> 00:18:41.369 the gesture that occurs there. 582 00:18:41.370 --> 00:18:43.229 And to me, this is 583 00:18:43.230 --> 00:18:44.230 a language. 584 00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:48.299 I did a lot of work on the painter 585 00:18:48.300 --> 00:18:50.189 Francis Bacon, and 586 00:18:50.190 --> 00:18:51.269 one of the things I was trying to do 587 00:18:51.270 --> 00:18:53.069 was fight the idea that you could 588 00:18:53.070 --> 00:18:55.139 read Bacon's work using 589 00:18:55.140 --> 00:18:56.999 semiotics because, ultimately, I 590 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:58.589 don't think it signifies in that 591 00:18:58.590 --> 00:19:00.359 way. And yet I would call it 592 00:19:00.360 --> 00:19:01.360 language because 593 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:04.949 of what is happening 594 00:19:04.950 --> 00:19:05.950 there in 595 00:19:07.350 --> 00:19:09.209 his drawing forth 596 00:19:09.210 --> 00:19:11.099 of his relation 597 00:19:11.100 --> 00:19:13.229 to the world or his relation to 598 00:19:13.230 --> 00:19:15.479 others in terms of 599 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.459 sexual relations and so forth. 600 00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:18.460 So, 601 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:21.449 yeah, I'm using language very 602 00:19:21.450 --> 00:19:22.589 broadly. 603 00:19:22.590 --> 00:19:24.329 Right. Well, one thing I think that 604 00:19:24.330 --> 00:19:26.279 it's important to say about 605 00:19:26.280 --> 00:19:28.289 your work, and this is 606 00:19:28.290 --> 00:19:30.119 something that-- you 607 00:19:30.120 --> 00:19:31.529 talk about your work as being 608 00:19:31.530 --> 00:19:32.879 affirmative, that it's affirmative, 609 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:34.379 that there's a kind of an outward 610 00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:35.759 movement in it. 611 00:19:35.760 --> 00:19:37.019 The kind of attention to language 612 00:19:37.020 --> 00:19:39.119 that you talk 613 00:19:39.120 --> 00:19:40.349 about here as being something they 614 00:19:40.350 --> 00:19:41.819 can kind of ground practices in the 615 00:19:41.820 --> 00:19:43.799 humanities is one that when 616 00:19:43.800 --> 00:19:45.119 it's put into practice, it requires 617 00:19:45.120 --> 00:19:45.935 a kind of ethics, requires a 618 00:19:45.936 --> 00:19:48.869 relation and attention to ethics. 619 00:19:48.870 --> 00:19:50.579 It enables community. 620 00:19:50.580 --> 00:19:51.719 That's another word that's important 621 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:53.549 to you. And I wonder if you can 622 00:19:53.550 --> 00:19:55.589 say a little bit about the 623 00:19:55.590 --> 00:19:57.029 kind of affirmative possibilities or 624 00:19:57.030 --> 00:19:58.859 the saying "yes" that you talk about 625 00:19:58.860 --> 00:20:00.059 in your work a lot. And in 626 00:20:00.060 --> 00:20:01.398 particular because I think that 627 00:20:03.210 --> 00:20:05.099 some listeners here or people 628 00:20:05.100 --> 00:20:07.149 who read your work might see 629 00:20:07.150 --> 00:20:08.129 it to be a simple way of 630 00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:10.049 understanding of reading 631 00:20:10.050 --> 00:20:11.309 it. But I think I could understand 632 00:20:11.310 --> 00:20:12.749 it on some level. It seems like the 633 00:20:12.750 --> 00:20:14.009 attention to language. 634 00:20:14.010 --> 00:20:16.169 It looks like a regression 635 00:20:16.170 --> 00:20:17.219 in the sense that, well, in the one 636 00:20:17.220 --> 00:20:18.209 sense, you can say, "Oh, well, we've 637 00:20:18.210 --> 00:20:19.619 already done that." And that's one 638 00:20:19.620 --> 00:20:20.669 way to look at it. But another would 639 00:20:20.670 --> 00:20:22.559 be just the sense of it's kind of 640 00:20:22.560 --> 00:20:24.689 a going backward, but that enables 641 00:20:24.690 --> 00:20:26.429 a kind of an outward movement for 642 00:20:26.430 --> 00:20:27.779 you. And I wonder if you can talk a 643 00:20:27.780 --> 00:20:29.309 little bit about that. 644 00:20:29.310 --> 00:20:30.310 Yes. 645 00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:34.779 This question of 646 00:20:34.780 --> 00:20:36.535 an affirmative yes saying really 647 00:20:39.820 --> 00:20:41.010 does go way back for me, and 648 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:44.929 I come back to it insistently. 649 00:20:44.930 --> 00:20:45.930 Let me just point 650 00:20:47.300 --> 00:20:49.099 to what I'm working on right now in 651 00:20:49.100 --> 00:20:50.100 that respect. 652 00:20:50.930 --> 00:20:52.879 I've been attending 653 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:53.880 to Maurice Blanchot's 654 00:20:55.100 --> 00:20:57.019 post-work politics because there's 655 00:20:57.020 --> 00:20:58.609 been a tremendous debate about the 656 00:20:58.610 --> 00:20:59.779 relation between his pre-war 657 00:20:59.780 --> 00:21:01.669 politics, which were geared 658 00:21:01.670 --> 00:21:03.079 to the right, and his postwar 659 00:21:03.080 --> 00:21:04.159 politics, which were geared to the 660 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:05.209 left. 661 00:21:05.210 --> 00:21:07.249 And a lot of controversy, 662 00:21:07.250 --> 00:21:09.139 a lot of difficulty because 663 00:21:09.140 --> 00:21:10.309 the nature of his political 664 00:21:10.310 --> 00:21:12.079 commitments in the postwar period is 665 00:21:12.080 --> 00:21:13.080 not easy 666 00:21:14.330 --> 00:21:15.330 to define. 667 00:21:17.360 --> 00:21:19.939 But I've been concentrating on his-- 668 00:21:19.940 --> 00:21:22.249 I think one of the master 669 00:21:22.250 --> 00:21:23.539 concerns, one of his primary 670 00:21:23.540 --> 00:21:25.489 concerns is the notion of freedom. 671 00:21:25.490 --> 00:21:27.109 And so, I've been trying to follow 672 00:21:27.110 --> 00:21:29.029 how he conceives of freedom 673 00:21:29.030 --> 00:21:31.129 in a socio-political 674 00:21:31.130 --> 00:21:32.239 context and 675 00:21:34.850 --> 00:21:36.319 how he understands what he calls 676 00:21:36.320 --> 00:21:38.929 being provoked by the 677 00:21:38.930 --> 00:21:40.549 res publica, the public thing. 678 00:21:40.550 --> 00:21:41.948 And so my question is, what is the 679 00:21:41.949 --> 00:21:43.219 thing? What is to be provoked? 680 00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:44.749 What is the political passion 681 00:21:44.750 --> 00:21:45.750 involved, and what 682 00:21:47.060 --> 00:21:48.739 does provocation mean in terms of 683 00:21:48.740 --> 00:21:51.799 speech and in answering 684 00:21:51.800 --> 00:21:53.629 this exigency 685 00:21:53.630 --> 00:21:54.619 of this call? 686 00:21:54.620 --> 00:21:56.989 So a lot of different themes there. 687 00:21:56.990 --> 00:21:59.119 But I've been especially 688 00:21:59.120 --> 00:22:00.290 attentive to his 689 00:22:01.790 --> 00:22:03.649 insistence in the latter part of 690 00:22:03.650 --> 00:22:05.479 his work that we 691 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:06.480 can only think freedom from 692 00:22:11.710 --> 00:22:13.599 and by a relation to the other. 693 00:22:13.600 --> 00:22:16.239 And he will insist that 694 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:17.829 we are not free as long as others 695 00:22:17.830 --> 00:22:19.179 are not free. 696 00:22:19.180 --> 00:22:20.739 But that doesn't mean that we need a 697 00:22:20.740 --> 00:22:23.109 political program in the sense of 698 00:22:23.110 --> 00:22:25.269 a particular 699 00:22:25.270 --> 00:22:27.359 ideological political construction. 700 00:22:27.360 --> 00:22:28.989 Rather, we have to start from the 701 00:22:28.990 --> 00:22:29.990 ethical relation for him. 702 00:22:30.670 --> 00:22:32.769 And so, it's from 703 00:22:32.770 --> 00:22:34.689 a relation together that freedom 704 00:22:34.690 --> 00:22:37.209 can come not as a question. 705 00:22:37.210 --> 00:22:38.829 Now, in Blanchot, this is extremely 706 00:22:38.830 --> 00:22:39.830 complicated. The 707 00:22:41.350 --> 00:22:42.369 way in which some kind of 708 00:22:42.370 --> 00:22:43.600 transcendence can occur, using 709 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:46.809 transcendence in the sense of 710 00:22:46.810 --> 00:22:47.810 freedom, it's 711 00:22:49.900 --> 00:22:50.979 not something I could summarize in 712 00:22:50.980 --> 00:22:52.329 this context because it has to do 713 00:22:52.330 --> 00:22:53.679 with his notion of 714 00:22:54.700 --> 00:22:57.189 exceeding the hold of 715 00:22:57.190 --> 00:22:59.499 the negative or the concept and 716 00:22:59.500 --> 00:23:01.569 engaging with what he calls the 717 00:23:01.570 --> 00:23:03.339 neutral or neutrality. 718 00:23:03.340 --> 00:23:05.529 But in Blanchot, this produces 719 00:23:05.530 --> 00:23:07.449 a kind of spring, and there's 720 00:23:07.450 --> 00:23:08.660 a kind of springing forth as a 721 00:23:11.170 --> 00:23:12.789 kind of affirmation that takes 722 00:23:12.790 --> 00:23:14.490 shape. And so, I've been trying to 723 00:23:15.550 --> 00:23:16.550 pursue that. 724 00:23:19.870 --> 00:23:20.870 I can go back to 725 00:23:22.150 --> 00:23:23.469 that auto-critique that I referred 726 00:23:23.470 --> 00:23:25.269 to earlier in the essay on the 727 00:23:25.270 --> 00:23:26.709 philosophy of politics. 728 00:23:26.710 --> 00:23:27.669 When I was first following Gerard 729 00:23:27.670 --> 00:23:29.589 Garnel's work-- 730 00:23:29.590 --> 00:23:31.179 and I was extremely excited by this 731 00:23:31.180 --> 00:23:32.180 work. 732 00:23:34.540 --> 00:23:36.009 Garnel wrote a very beautiful 733 00:23:37.300 --> 00:23:38.300 introduction to Derrida 734 00:23:39.610 --> 00:23:40.610 with a strong Nietzschean twist. 735 00:23:41.590 --> 00:23:42.778 And he wrote in 736 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:47.049 a form which, for me, as a young 737 00:23:47.050 --> 00:23:48.609 scholar, was just absolutely 738 00:23:48.610 --> 00:23:50.639 intoxicating. I mean, I 739 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:51.579 became a little suspicious of that 740 00:23:51.580 --> 00:23:52.839 intoxication after a while, but it 741 00:23:52.840 --> 00:23:54.086 was absolutely gorgeous. 742 00:23:57.500 --> 00:23:59.689 So I began to read him. 743 00:23:59.690 --> 00:24:01.430 I discovered that he's a kind of 744 00:24:02.750 --> 00:24:03.949 - I don't want to use the word cult 745 00:24:03.950 --> 00:24:04.950 figure - a 746 00:24:07.260 --> 00:24:09.359 widely recognized but not well-known 747 00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:10.289 figure in France. 748 00:24:10.290 --> 00:24:12.119 So people like 749 00:24:12.120 --> 00:24:12.929 Philippe Lacoue-Labarthe considered 750 00:24:12.930 --> 00:24:13.930 him to be a mentor. 751 00:24:15.030 --> 00:24:15.989 There were a lot of people like 752 00:24:15.990 --> 00:24:16.990 that, actually. 753 00:24:17.760 --> 00:24:19.679 And Granel hung back 754 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:21.269 in Bordeaux. 755 00:24:21.270 --> 00:24:22.739 He was a very difficult man. 756 00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:24.569 And I was 757 00:24:24.570 --> 00:24:27.059 doing some incredible work on Marx, 758 00:24:27.060 --> 00:24:28.060 on Wittgenstein, on Nietzsche. 759 00:24:30.539 --> 00:24:31.539 Did he translate Vico? 760 00:24:33.390 --> 00:24:34.169 He translated a lot of people. He 761 00:24:34.170 --> 00:24:35.170 was the first to translate Husserl. 762 00:24:36.090 --> 00:24:37.090 And Husserl's crises 763 00:24:38.040 --> 00:24:39.539 in particular. And this is pure 764 00:24:39.540 --> 00:24:41.459 Granel in his introduction. 765 00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:42.470 He made the statement what 766 00:24:43.650 --> 00:24:45.209 he just translated is a piece of 767 00:24:45.210 --> 00:24:46.859 pure philosophical paranoia. 768 00:24:46.860 --> 00:24:47.860 And 769 00:24:48.710 --> 00:24:49.710 of course, I loved it. And 770 00:24:50.850 --> 00:24:51.850 he was a very good translator. 771 00:24:55.414 --> 00:24:56.414 Granel affirmed 772 00:24:57.720 --> 00:24:59.099 the project of deconstruction and 773 00:24:59.100 --> 00:25:01.349 did it with a political intent. 774 00:25:01.350 --> 00:25:02.690 Because he was also reading Marx, 775 00:25:02.691 --> 00:25:03.691 and 776 00:25:05.100 --> 00:25:06.569 this became the basis of a 777 00:25:06.570 --> 00:25:08.939 controversy with Derrida, but 778 00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:10.069 I found this very exciting. 779 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:13.319 He had also, and very early on, 780 00:25:13.320 --> 00:25:16.439 taken quite seriously 781 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:17.909 what Heidegger was attempting to do 782 00:25:17.910 --> 00:25:19.289 in his rectoral project, which is, 783 00:25:19.290 --> 00:25:20.459 of course, again, an outrageous 784 00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:21.719 thing to do because that was 785 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:23.609 Heidegger's entry into National 786 00:25:23.610 --> 00:25:25.709 Socialism or, rather, 787 00:25:25.710 --> 00:25:27.209 the Nazi Party. He was already a 788 00:25:27.210 --> 00:25:28.210 national socialist. My 789 00:25:31.470 --> 00:25:33.329 initial version of that was 790 00:25:33.330 --> 00:25:34.619 suppose we were to take the 791 00:25:34.620 --> 00:25:36.449 Rektoratsrede seriously, and 792 00:25:36.450 --> 00:25:38.849 that's exactly what Granel had done. 793 00:25:38.850 --> 00:25:40.439 And if one does that, you see that, 794 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:42.449 in fact, a lot of these points are 795 00:25:42.450 --> 00:25:43.679 quite powerful. 796 00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:44.951 There's some very unfortunate stuff, 797 00:25:44.952 --> 00:25:47.399 but the way he lenses 798 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:48.809 his language to the National 799 00:25:48.810 --> 00:25:50.639 Socialist, or 800 00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:51.809 I know I should say more precisely 801 00:25:51.810 --> 00:25:53.894 the Nazi agenda. 802 00:25:56.330 --> 00:25:57.799 His thinking about the place of the 803 00:25:57.800 --> 00:25:59.690 university in the contemporary 804 00:26:01.070 --> 00:26:02.989 social structure is really 805 00:26:02.990 --> 00:26:03.889 very powerful. 806 00:26:03.890 --> 00:26:04.890 His 807 00:26:09.460 --> 00:26:11.319 critique of the university in the 808 00:26:11.320 --> 00:26:13.389 early through the late thirties, 809 00:26:13.390 --> 00:26:15.489 I would say, is astonishingly 810 00:26:15.490 --> 00:26:17.739 pertinent today. 811 00:26:17.740 --> 00:26:18.740 So I was very excited about Granel. But 812 00:26:21.610 --> 00:26:22.610 I began to 813 00:26:23.710 --> 00:26:26.379 grow wary 814 00:26:26.380 --> 00:26:28.329 of the, I guess, almost 815 00:26:28.330 --> 00:26:29.330 the insistent 816 00:26:31.790 --> 00:26:32.988 negativity for the project. 817 00:26:32.989 --> 00:26:34.879 In the name of 818 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:36.380 revolution, he could only 819 00:26:37.430 --> 00:26:38.430 undo. And 820 00:26:40.100 --> 00:26:42.019 I began to think that 821 00:26:42.020 --> 00:26:43.279 this was leading into a trap. 822 00:26:45.050 --> 00:26:46.050 And 823 00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:49.469 I don't know if you want-- 824 00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:51.479 I can recount that little story at 825 00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:52.882 the end of my essay, which is 826 00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:56.279 a story about a rabbi. 827 00:26:56.280 --> 00:26:57.389 Yes. Please. 828 00:26:57.390 --> 00:26:59.210 And it's 829 00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:03.219 a rather famous story, but Rabbi 830 00:27:03.220 --> 00:27:04.439 Shimon, sitting with a couple of 831 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.539 friends, and he is 832 00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:09.839 groaning about the Roman oppression 833 00:27:09.840 --> 00:27:11.640 and denouncing the Romans. 834 00:27:13.590 --> 00:27:15.599 And there's a spy at the table. 835 00:27:15.600 --> 00:27:17.609 So very quickly, it comes about that 836 00:27:17.610 --> 00:27:19.649 he is to be arrested 837 00:27:19.650 --> 00:27:21.119 for this, and he goes into hiding. 838 00:27:21.120 --> 00:27:22.649 Ultimately, I'm going to tell the 839 00:27:22.650 --> 00:27:24.719 story quickly, he ends up in a cave 840 00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:26.729 with his son, and 841 00:27:26.730 --> 00:27:27.959 he has to go into hiding there for 842 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:29.069 ten years. 843 00:27:29.070 --> 00:27:30.070 He comes out, 844 00:27:31.260 --> 00:27:33.629 Elijah comes by and says, 845 00:27:33.630 --> 00:27:35.939 "You can come out now." And 846 00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:36.989 he walks out, and he sees that 847 00:27:36.990 --> 00:27:38.789 nothing has changed. 848 00:27:38.790 --> 00:27:41.849 The same sort of compromised 849 00:27:41.850 --> 00:27:43.799 existence of the local 850 00:27:43.800 --> 00:27:45.719 population with the Romans is going 851 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:46.979 on. Everyone seems perfectly 852 00:27:46.980 --> 00:27:47.999 comfortable with this. 853 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.559 So he burns everything with his eyes 854 00:27:49.560 --> 00:27:50.399 and fury. 855 00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:52.379 At that point, a voice 856 00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:53.759 comes from above and says, "Would 857 00:27:53.760 --> 00:27:54.959 you destroy my world? 858 00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:56.799 Get back in the cave." 859 00:27:56.800 --> 00:27:58.289 And so, 860 00:27:59.650 --> 00:28:01.589 he goes into the cave with his son, 861 00:28:01.590 --> 00:28:03.599 and they go back for another year. 862 00:28:03.600 --> 00:28:04.739 And the story tells, well, that's 863 00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:06.929 because, in Jewish 864 00:28:06.930 --> 00:28:08.739 thought, hell lasts only a year. 865 00:28:08.740 --> 00:28:10.589 And so, they go back to 866 00:28:10.590 --> 00:28:11.549 the cave, and then they come out 867 00:28:11.550 --> 00:28:12.599 after a year. 868 00:28:12.600 --> 00:28:14.879 And again, 869 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:16.079 things don't seem to have changed. 870 00:28:16.080 --> 00:28:18.959 And at this point, the son was 871 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:19.979 - obviously learned from his father - is about 872 00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:21.299 to do what his father done before, 873 00:28:21.300 --> 00:28:22.859 which is burn everything in anger. 874 00:28:22.860 --> 00:28:24.839 And the father stays his hand 875 00:28:24.840 --> 00:28:26.669 and says when he sees an old 876 00:28:26.670 --> 00:28:28.859 man walking by with twigs 877 00:28:28.860 --> 00:28:31.139 of Myrtle, as I remember, and 878 00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:32.421 which is a symbol for the Shabbat-- 879 00:28:34.770 --> 00:28:35.999 the meaning of the Sabbath is when 880 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:37.909 one gives thanks 881 00:28:37.910 --> 00:28:39.029 for creation, for receiving 882 00:28:39.030 --> 00:28:40.139 creation. 883 00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:41.999 And at that point, 884 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:43.000 he accepts 885 00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:45.479 the presence of the world. 886 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:46.480 And 887 00:28:47.490 --> 00:28:49.559 this creates a transformation in 888 00:28:49.560 --> 00:28:50.630 his relation to 889 00:28:52.830 --> 00:28:53.919 the questions that are agitating 890 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:56.369 him. I'm already moving into the 891 00:28:56.370 --> 00:28:58.289 essay there, but I began to think 892 00:28:58.290 --> 00:28:59.290 that 893 00:29:00.300 --> 00:29:02.489 we had to find ways to 894 00:29:02.490 --> 00:29:03.490 work 895 00:29:04.350 --> 00:29:05.350 in a more constructive, 896 00:29:07.190 --> 00:29:09.019 productive way from all the 897 00:29:09.020 --> 00:29:10.784 forms of creativity that are already 898 00:29:10.785 --> 00:29:12.050 present. And 899 00:29:14.270 --> 00:29:16.399 in that sense, I started going in-- 900 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:18.169 I wouldn't say I became reformist in 901 00:29:18.170 --> 00:29:19.639 my thinking. That's not what I was 902 00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:21.229 doing. But I was thinking that 903 00:29:21.230 --> 00:29:22.729 perhaps transformation meant 904 00:29:22.730 --> 00:29:23.989 something very different from this 905 00:29:23.990 --> 00:29:26.509 incessant destruction 906 00:29:26.510 --> 00:29:29.089 of the existing order, that 907 00:29:29.090 --> 00:29:30.949 there had to be a different kind of 908 00:29:30.950 --> 00:29:32.119 building and 909 00:29:34.040 --> 00:29:35.040 creativity. 910 00:29:38.040 --> 00:29:39.929 This is also where I start thinking 911 00:29:39.930 --> 00:29:41.519 about institution building and 912 00:29:41.520 --> 00:29:42.520 making bridges, 913 00:29:43.560 --> 00:29:44.760 but not for the sake of 914 00:29:46.530 --> 00:29:47.489 strengthening the external 915 00:29:47.490 --> 00:29:48.899 institutions, but rather for finding 916 00:29:48.900 --> 00:29:50.682 new paths and creative paths and 917 00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:53.369 new institutions. 918 00:29:53.370 --> 00:29:54.449 Yeah, right, in your case. 919 00:29:54.450 --> 00:29:55.584 Because I've been doing a lot of institution building. 920 00:29:57.360 --> 00:29:59.159 Well, I do want to ask you about 921 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:00.239 that. 922 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:02.249 I want to stay with one other aspect 923 00:30:02.250 --> 00:30:03.899 of your writing. 924 00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:05.369 And this is in The Claim of Language 925 00:30:05.370 --> 00:30:06.929 and a lot of other places in your 926 00:30:06.930 --> 00:30:08.339 work, too. And that is just your 927 00:30:08.340 --> 00:30:09.389 work on teaching. It's very 928 00:30:09.390 --> 00:30:10.439 important to you. 929 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:12.329 It has been throughout your career. 930 00:30:12.330 --> 00:30:13.259 You write about it, I think, very 931 00:30:13.260 --> 00:30:15.130 powerfully in The Claim of Language, 932 00:30:15.131 --> 00:30:16.131 although 933 00:30:17.670 --> 00:30:19.439 I want to give you a comment you 934 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:22.529 make from a more recent essay 935 00:30:22.530 --> 00:30:23.819 to get your thoughts on it. 936 00:30:23.820 --> 00:30:24.929 And that's an essay you published in 937 00:30:24.930 --> 00:30:26.279 a collection called What Is 938 00:30:26.280 --> 00:30:27.689 Education just earlier this year, I 939 00:30:27.690 --> 00:30:28.619 think. 940 00:30:28.620 --> 00:30:29.909 And there, you talk about teaching, 941 00:30:29.910 --> 00:30:31.499 and you comment on the difference 942 00:30:31.500 --> 00:30:33.509 between research-led 943 00:30:33.510 --> 00:30:34.979 teaching and teaching that is 944 00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:36.659 intrinsically research itself. 945 00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:38.549 In the latter being something that 946 00:30:38.550 --> 00:30:40.319 you practice and that you write 947 00:30:40.320 --> 00:30:41.729 about, as I was saying, in powerful 948 00:30:41.730 --> 00:30:42.749 ways in The Claim of Language. 949 00:30:42.750 --> 00:30:44.519 Can you talk about what that means? 950 00:30:44.520 --> 00:30:46.469 I don't know if it's necessarily 951 00:30:46.470 --> 00:30:47.470 a 952 00:30:48.780 --> 00:30:50.879 familiar concept to people 953 00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:52.109 who work in universities, at least 954 00:30:52.110 --> 00:30:53.219 in the U.S.. 955 00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:54.509 I think research-led teaching sounds 956 00:30:54.510 --> 00:30:55.559 great. I mean, that's what we're 957 00:30:55.560 --> 00:30:57.359 supposed to do, but you're thinking 958 00:30:57.360 --> 00:30:59.509 of it in a different way. 959 00:30:59.510 --> 00:31:00.839 And what does that mean to you kind 960 00:31:00.840 --> 00:31:02.159 of teaching intrinsically as 961 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:03.389 research? 962 00:31:03.390 --> 00:31:04.559 Well, I hope I made that up. 963 00:31:06.360 --> 00:31:07.834 Well, yeah. Good. I haven't heard it 964 00:31:07.835 --> 00:31:08.835 anywhere. 965 00:31:09.590 --> 00:31:10.559 I don't know. 966 00:31:10.560 --> 00:31:12.180 But it would be nice to think. 967 00:31:15.130 --> 00:31:17.019 Three years ago, 968 00:31:17.020 --> 00:31:19.029 I had to draft 969 00:31:19.030 --> 00:31:21.219 papers for the accreditation of 970 00:31:21.220 --> 00:31:23.169 the EGS within 971 00:31:23.170 --> 00:31:24.170 the EU framework. 972 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:26.576 And I 973 00:31:27.750 --> 00:31:29.819 was doing this for the European 974 00:31:29.820 --> 00:31:31.439 Graduate School, which is a very 975 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:32.670 experimental structure. 976 00:31:33.900 --> 00:31:35.849 So trying to fit this 977 00:31:35.850 --> 00:31:37.769 into the Bologna context was 978 00:31:37.770 --> 00:31:38.729 not a simple matter. 979 00:31:38.730 --> 00:31:40.169 And I thought to myself, "Well, hell 980 00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:41.099 with it. 981 00:31:41.100 --> 00:31:42.100 I'm just going to go for it. 982 00:31:43.080 --> 00:31:45.209 I'm going to say the European 983 00:31:45.210 --> 00:31:46.859 University is based upon the 984 00:31:46.860 --> 00:31:48.879 Humboldtian model, 985 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:50.969 the University of Humboldt, Wilhelm 986 00:31:50.970 --> 00:31:53.129 von Humboldt, and 987 00:31:53.130 --> 00:31:54.929 that university, the watchword for 988 00:31:54.930 --> 00:31:56.009 that university is that it's 989 00:31:56.010 --> 00:31:57.020 research-led teaching. 990 00:31:58.530 --> 00:32:00.089 Well, we certainly do research-led 991 00:32:00.090 --> 00:32:01.439 teaching at the European Graduate 992 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:02.699 School." But I think what's really 993 00:32:02.700 --> 00:32:04.079 much more interesting is that we do 994 00:32:04.080 --> 00:32:05.849 research through teaching. 995 00:32:05.850 --> 00:32:07.769 And that we have people who are 996 00:32:07.770 --> 00:32:09.719 at the very top of their 997 00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:10.720 fields, 998 00:32:11.970 --> 00:32:13.649 presenting their work or their 999 00:32:13.650 --> 00:32:14.759 questions in a way 1000 00:32:16.110 --> 00:32:17.639 that draws upon what those fields 1001 00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:19.799 have to offer and goes to the limits 1002 00:32:19.800 --> 00:32:20.800 constantly. 1003 00:32:21.300 --> 00:32:22.259 It's particularly interesting 1004 00:32:22.260 --> 00:32:24.059 because they have to speak to people 1005 00:32:24.060 --> 00:32:25.439 who are not necessarily experts in 1006 00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:26.669 their fields. 1007 00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:28.949 So the teaching takes on 1008 00:32:28.950 --> 00:32:31.049 what I find a quite fascinating 1009 00:32:31.050 --> 00:32:32.439 character. It's public. 1010 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:32.949 Yeah, it has to be. 1011 00:32:32.950 --> 00:32:33.950 Yeah. Of 1012 00:32:34.890 --> 00:32:36.029 course, it goes on in a seminar 1013 00:32:36.030 --> 00:32:37.859 context and it develops 1014 00:32:37.860 --> 00:32:39.839 its own resonance and weight 1015 00:32:39.840 --> 00:32:41.129 as the seminar proceeds. 1016 00:32:41.130 --> 00:32:43.649 But it has to be addressing people 1017 00:32:43.650 --> 00:32:44.879 who don't necessarily know the 1018 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:46.889 jargon or even have much 1019 00:32:46.890 --> 00:32:48.449 preparation I feel. 1020 00:32:48.450 --> 00:32:50.489 So you have a 1021 00:32:50.490 --> 00:32:52.149 really fascinating situation where 1022 00:32:52.150 --> 00:32:53.999 people who are at the very 1023 00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:55.000 top of their field 1024 00:32:56.070 --> 00:32:57.329 have to start translating their own 1025 00:32:57.330 --> 00:32:59.249 work in a way that 1026 00:32:59.250 --> 00:33:01.169 is comprehensible for people who 1027 00:33:01.170 --> 00:33:02.849 are making a serious effort but are 1028 00:33:02.850 --> 00:33:03.850 not prepared. 1029 00:33:04.710 --> 00:33:06.629 And what that 1030 00:33:06.630 --> 00:33:08.339 means is they have to rethink their 1031 00:33:08.340 --> 00:33:09.340 own 1032 00:33:10.470 --> 00:33:13.409 guiding ideas and 1033 00:33:13.410 --> 00:33:14.399 propositions. 1034 00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:15.629 So you have someone like Judith 1035 00:33:15.630 --> 00:33:17.699 Butler presenting 1036 00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:20.369 her very intense research 1037 00:33:20.370 --> 00:33:22.589 in a way that is open to 1038 00:33:22.590 --> 00:33:24.269 a broader group but not 1039 00:33:24.270 --> 00:33:25.919 compromising. I mean, Judith doesn't 1040 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:28.809 have time to fly across the world 1041 00:33:28.810 --> 00:33:30.359 to give an introduction to her work. 1042 00:33:30.360 --> 00:33:32.279 She'll only do it if 1043 00:33:32.280 --> 00:33:33.959 it's an interesting context. 1044 00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:36.149 And I think that this-- 1045 00:33:36.150 --> 00:33:37.259 I don't know how she experienced it 1046 00:33:37.260 --> 00:33:39.089 exactly. But watching, I think it's 1047 00:33:39.090 --> 00:33:41.699 something like this translation 1048 00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:43.679 of thinking in a cross-disciplinary 1049 00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:45.599 context makes it 1050 00:33:45.600 --> 00:33:47.339 such a fascinating experience. 1051 00:33:47.340 --> 00:33:49.289 And so things happen as one 1052 00:33:49.290 --> 00:33:50.484 sort of rethinks one's own-- 1053 00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:53.159 for me, for example, the commitment 1054 00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:55.469 to language, I did a course on 1055 00:33:55.470 --> 00:33:57.329 Benjamin and Heidegger and 1056 00:33:57.330 --> 00:33:59.279 Blanchot on language two years ago. 1057 00:33:59.280 --> 00:34:01.259 I had to scramble to translate this 1058 00:34:01.260 --> 00:34:02.437 in terms pretty quickly 1059 00:34:04.330 --> 00:34:06.299 that could be understood 1060 00:34:06.300 --> 00:34:07.300 by my audience. 1061 00:34:08.580 --> 00:34:10.408 And things happen when one 1062 00:34:10.409 --> 00:34:12.238 does that. And you go 1063 00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:14.099 away from those seminars 1064 00:34:14.100 --> 00:34:15.209 writing something. 1065 00:34:15.210 --> 00:34:16.210 So 1066 00:34:17.190 --> 00:34:18.269 it's actually a form of teaching 1067 00:34:18.270 --> 00:34:19.229 that's occurring. 1068 00:34:19.230 --> 00:34:21.388 And I really do believe that 1069 00:34:21.389 --> 00:34:23.718 any good teaching 1070 00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:24.649 has this character. 1071 00:34:24.650 --> 00:34:26.238 I mean, one has to go into a 1072 00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:27.948 classroom with questions and then 1073 00:34:27.949 --> 00:34:29.389 undertake those questions in pushing 1074 00:34:30.620 --> 00:34:32.599 as far as one can with the students. 1075 00:34:32.600 --> 00:34:34.939 And at that point, 1076 00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:36.825 you have to, in a certain sense, 1077 00:34:37.850 --> 00:34:39.709 cede your mastery is a phrase I use. 1078 00:34:39.710 --> 00:34:41.900 You have to expose yourself 1079 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:44.689 to the text, to the problems that 1080 00:34:44.690 --> 00:34:45.468 are being addressed. 1081 00:34:45.469 --> 00:34:47.329 And you start afresh, and you 1082 00:34:47.330 --> 00:34:48.979 have to try to think it through. 1083 00:34:48.980 --> 00:34:49.879 And you do this in front of the 1084 00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:51.738 students. And it is 1085 00:34:51.739 --> 00:34:53.388 in that way a research being 1086 00:34:53.389 --> 00:34:55.038 conducted with the students. 1087 00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:57.049 And since it's going 1088 00:34:57.050 --> 00:34:58.510 on in this interlocution and this 1089 00:35:00.860 --> 00:35:02.269 very complicated relation to the 1090 00:35:02.270 --> 00:35:03.270 students, there's 1091 00:35:04.490 --> 00:35:05.419 a lot going on. 1092 00:35:05.420 --> 00:35:06.919 And it becomes research for that 1093 00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:07.920 reason. 1094 00:35:09.350 --> 00:35:11.209 As I say, it's teaching-led research 1095 00:35:11.210 --> 00:35:12.349 because it proceeds from that 1096 00:35:12.350 --> 00:35:14.329 engagement, from that act of 1097 00:35:14.330 --> 00:35:16.579 translation and searching, 1098 00:35:16.580 --> 00:35:17.580 which is a very-- 1099 00:35:19.900 --> 00:35:21.009 it's a very challenging thing. 1100 00:35:21.010 --> 00:35:22.010 I still 1101 00:35:23.050 --> 00:35:24.773 experience-- I mean, how long have I 1102 00:35:24.774 --> 00:35:26.829 been at it? 40 years. 1103 00:35:28.060 --> 00:35:29.709 I still experience anguish before I 1104 00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:30.489 go in the classroom. 1105 00:35:30.490 --> 00:35:32.259 And most of the good teachers I know 1106 00:35:32.260 --> 00:35:34.059 are exactly like that. 1107 00:35:34.060 --> 00:35:35.409 They're scared to death. 1108 00:35:35.410 --> 00:35:37.359 And they get very 1109 00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:38.977 nervous. They get irritable. 1110 00:35:38.978 --> 00:35:40.569 They're a little difficult to deal 1111 00:35:40.570 --> 00:35:42.579 with. I can say this because, 1112 00:35:42.580 --> 00:35:44.799 as a dean, I have to deal with them. 1113 00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:46.839 And you would be amazed 1114 00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:48.279 at who is in that state. 1115 00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:50.469 And that tells us something, 1116 00:35:50.470 --> 00:35:51.470 I believe, 1117 00:35:52.390 --> 00:35:54.099 that a lot is at stake sort of 1118 00:35:54.100 --> 00:35:55.100 existentially 1119 00:35:55.990 --> 00:35:57.159 and in terms of 1120 00:35:58.390 --> 00:36:00.609 one sense of one's capacity to 1121 00:36:00.610 --> 00:36:02.439 think in the presence of 1122 00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:04.299 others. I mean, everyone knows it's 1123 00:36:04.300 --> 00:36:06.099 not always going to happen. 1124 00:36:06.100 --> 00:36:07.689 Sometimes one stumbles, it doesn't 1125 00:36:07.690 --> 00:36:09.879 come. There are obstacles of obscure 1126 00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:10.809 kinds. 1127 00:36:10.810 --> 00:36:12.069 There are obstacles in the classroom. 1128 00:36:12.070 --> 00:36:13.449 So it's a very, very 1129 00:36:15.040 --> 00:36:16.389 complex situation. 1130 00:36:16.390 --> 00:36:18.459 And I think that good 1131 00:36:18.460 --> 00:36:20.409 teaching embraces that complexity 1132 00:36:20.410 --> 00:36:22.509 and goes into it and produces 1133 00:36:22.510 --> 00:36:24.579 events. And that's 1134 00:36:24.580 --> 00:36:26.469 where I think the humanities have 1135 00:36:26.470 --> 00:36:29.139 a very special place 1136 00:36:29.140 --> 00:36:31.749 because you can't do that kind of 1137 00:36:31.750 --> 00:36:33.279 exploration, that kind of research 1138 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:34.799 in many fields. 1139 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:35.800 At least 1140 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:38.591 the way they are structured today 1141 00:36:38.592 --> 00:36:40.509 and given the agendas that 1142 00:36:40.510 --> 00:36:41.799 they have to follow, particularly if 1143 00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:43.629 they are in 1144 00:36:43.630 --> 00:36:45.039 sponsored research of some kind. 1145 00:36:46.120 --> 00:36:48.039 This sort of 1146 00:36:48.040 --> 00:36:49.449 teaching-led research, I think, is 1147 00:36:49.450 --> 00:36:51.279 something that is-- I don't 1148 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:52.419 want to say it's specific to the 1149 00:36:52.420 --> 00:36:54.699 humanities, but the humanities 1150 00:36:54.700 --> 00:36:56.289 require something like this. 1151 00:36:56.290 --> 00:36:58.119 And because of that relation to 1152 00:36:58.120 --> 00:36:59.199 language that I was talking about, 1153 00:36:59.200 --> 00:37:00.200 the relation to the text, 1154 00:37:02.830 --> 00:37:04.299 if it's a matter of bringing a 1155 00:37:04.300 --> 00:37:06.879 theory to bear in 1156 00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.319 relation to some literary text or 1157 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:10.149 some dance event or some musical 1158 00:37:10.150 --> 00:37:11.739 event if it's just a matter of sort 1159 00:37:11.740 --> 00:37:13.179 of reading off the meaning of that 1160 00:37:13.180 --> 00:37:15.849 event by virtue of some theoretical 1161 00:37:15.850 --> 00:37:17.739 construction, well then, no. 1162 00:37:17.740 --> 00:37:19.039 There is no research going on. 1163 00:37:19.040 --> 00:37:19.915 That's a decoding. 1164 00:37:19.916 --> 00:37:22.269 That's an interpretation 1165 00:37:22.270 --> 00:37:24.219 in the narrow sense of the term. 1166 00:37:24.220 --> 00:37:25.509 But if there's an actually an 1167 00:37:25.510 --> 00:37:27.729 engagement with the questions 1168 00:37:27.730 --> 00:37:30.189 presented by that piece 1169 00:37:30.190 --> 00:37:32.319 and one really disarms 1170 00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:34.329 oneself in front of those 1171 00:37:34.330 --> 00:37:36.249 questions, then a 1172 00:37:36.250 --> 00:37:38.169 different kind of teaching occurs. 1173 00:37:38.170 --> 00:37:39.644 And again, I think that's, in 1174 00:37:40.720 --> 00:37:42.399 some ways, the purview of the 1175 00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:44.409 humanities. I mean, our task 1176 00:37:44.410 --> 00:37:46.269 is to teach people to 1177 00:37:46.270 --> 00:37:48.279 think or at least 1178 00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:50.379 a question and come to 1179 00:37:50.380 --> 00:37:51.879 a form of thinking in that 1180 00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:52.880 questioning. 1181 00:37:56.060 --> 00:37:58.369 Yeah, I think that helps distinguish 1182 00:37:58.370 --> 00:37:59.479 the humanities. 1183 00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:01.189 So to go back to our earlier 1184 00:38:01.190 --> 00:38:02.539 question about the politics of this 1185 00:38:02.540 --> 00:38:04.549 book. In those years, I 1186 00:38:04.550 --> 00:38:06.439 was coming to the point of thinking, 1187 00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:08.469 "Well, I do feel 1188 00:38:08.470 --> 00:38:10.539 I'm very politically involved 1189 00:38:10.540 --> 00:38:11.559 and politically engaged, 1190 00:38:13.300 --> 00:38:14.559 but I think of myself as a local 1191 00:38:14.560 --> 00:38:16.509 intellectual in the sense that 1192 00:38:16.510 --> 00:38:17.510 Deleuze and Foucault were 1193 00:38:18.250 --> 00:38:19.869 describing." And a local 1194 00:38:19.870 --> 00:38:20.979 intellectual for 1195 00:38:22.150 --> 00:38:23.979 an academic means someone who 1196 00:38:23.980 --> 00:38:25.719 takes the encounter with students 1197 00:38:25.720 --> 00:38:27.729 seriously or takes seriously 1198 00:38:27.730 --> 00:38:28.749 the structure in which they're 1199 00:38:28.750 --> 00:38:30.849 functioning. And I've 1200 00:38:30.850 --> 00:38:32.949 never been comfortable with the 1201 00:38:32.950 --> 00:38:34.479 construction of the university with 1202 00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:36.189 its ivory walls and then an outside 1203 00:38:36.190 --> 00:38:37.869 where real political action is 1204 00:38:37.870 --> 00:38:38.679 occurring. Now, I think the 1205 00:38:38.680 --> 00:38:39.999 university is an incredibly 1206 00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.469 important political entity. 1207 00:38:42.700 --> 00:38:44.045 That importance has to be drawn out. 1208 00:38:44.046 --> 00:38:45.489 It has to be worked with. 1209 00:38:45.490 --> 00:38:47.049 It has to be disrupted in various 1210 00:38:47.050 --> 00:38:49.089 ways. But nevertheless, it is a 1211 00:38:49.090 --> 00:38:50.090 political site and consumes 1212 00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:52.359 what we're doing. 1213 00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:54.699 Yeah. I appreciate your 1214 00:38:54.700 --> 00:38:56.589 wariness of the 1215 00:38:56.590 --> 00:38:58.119 attractions of the "public 1216 00:38:58.120 --> 00:38:59.120 intellectual" 1217 00:39:00.490 --> 00:39:01.490 that you express. 1218 00:39:02.500 --> 00:39:04.359 And the reason being that 1219 00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:06.519 it does kind of reaffirm 1220 00:39:06.520 --> 00:39:07.659 the boundaries that you just 1221 00:39:07.660 --> 00:39:09.219 described between the university and 1222 00:39:09.220 --> 00:39:10.449 the world. And that instead, kind of 1223 00:39:10.450 --> 00:39:12.279 like a way to be public, which we've 1224 00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:14.209 been talking about here, 1225 00:39:14.210 --> 00:39:15.849 is to question the term, to question 1226 00:39:15.850 --> 00:39:16.839 those boundaries, and to question in 1227 00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:18.099 terms of the public and possibly 1228 00:39:18.100 --> 00:39:19.449 rethink it, remake it, do what you 1229 00:39:19.450 --> 00:39:20.259 can. 1230 00:39:20.260 --> 00:39:21.639 That's the way in which the 1231 00:39:21.640 --> 00:39:23.619 humanities can be public rather 1232 00:39:23.620 --> 00:39:25.839 than kind of thinking about, okay, 1233 00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:27.069 here's a university, and then 1234 00:39:27.070 --> 00:39:28.539 there's a real world outside of it. 1235 00:39:28.540 --> 00:39:29.540 How do you connect the two? 1236 00:39:30.524 --> 00:39:31.509 Yeah. I mean, right here in Pittsburgh, 1237 00:39:31.510 --> 00:39:33.699 it's fascinating to see what 1238 00:39:33.700 --> 00:39:35.829 goes on, what can go on between 1239 00:39:35.830 --> 00:39:37.734 the universities and the 1240 00:39:37.735 --> 00:39:38.829 Carnegie Museum right over there, 1241 00:39:38.830 --> 00:39:39.830 for example. 1242 00:39:40.570 --> 00:39:42.879 The museum 1243 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:43.880 is opening to 1244 00:39:45.040 --> 00:39:47.360 forms of questioning and research, 1245 00:39:48.760 --> 00:39:50.619 which start to venture 1246 00:39:50.620 --> 00:39:52.779 into an academic territory. 1247 00:39:52.780 --> 00:39:54.130 But at the same time, they bring 1248 00:39:55.450 --> 00:39:57.579 resources and capacities that 1249 00:39:57.580 --> 00:39:59.349 the Academy can't even begin to 1250 00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:01.749 furnish. 1251 00:40:01.750 --> 00:40:02.979 Well, I want to ask one more-- I 1252 00:40:02.980 --> 00:40:03.939 want to ask you one or two things 1253 00:40:03.940 --> 00:40:04.940 about EGS. 1254 00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:07.749 But before that, let me try to ask 1255 00:40:07.750 --> 00:40:09.039 one more question about 1256 00:40:11.410 --> 00:40:12.489 The Claim of Language and about the 1257 00:40:12.490 --> 00:40:13.719 central argument there and about 1258 00:40:13.720 --> 00:40:15.009 this kind of renewal to the 1259 00:40:15.010 --> 00:40:16.010 attention of language. 1260 00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:18.099 And I want to do it through-- we've 1261 00:40:18.100 --> 00:40:19.089 talked a little bit about research 1262 00:40:19.090 --> 00:40:20.319 and teaching. So I want to do it 1263 00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:21.519 through the way that you write about 1264 00:40:21.520 --> 00:40:23.469 teaching in that 1265 00:40:23.470 --> 00:40:25.299 essay and 1266 00:40:25.300 --> 00:40:27.189 recall for 1267 00:40:27.190 --> 00:40:29.049 us. You were talking about a class 1268 00:40:29.050 --> 00:40:30.429 that you were teaching on the limits 1269 00:40:30.430 --> 00:40:31.899 of representation. 1270 00:40:31.900 --> 00:40:32.709 You teach in there. 1271 00:40:32.710 --> 00:40:34.509 You teach Blanchot, you teach Primo 1272 00:40:34.510 --> 00:40:36.969 Levi, you teach other texts, and 1273 00:40:36.970 --> 00:40:39.009 you write about the way in which 1274 00:40:39.010 --> 00:40:39.969 you-- kind of in the way that we 1275 00:40:39.970 --> 00:40:41.169 were just talking about. Your 1276 00:40:41.170 --> 00:40:42.639 encounters with students in this 1277 00:40:42.640 --> 00:40:44.529 kind of - you want to say - kind of 1278 00:40:44.530 --> 00:40:46.209 vulnerable or exposed, where you're 1279 00:40:46.210 --> 00:40:47.319 exposing yourself and your own 1280 00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:48.339 thinking on this text to the 1281 00:40:48.340 --> 00:40:50.649 students and working 1282 00:40:50.650 --> 00:40:52.659 with them to create openings 1283 00:40:52.660 --> 00:40:54.519 for them to encounter the 1284 00:40:54.520 --> 00:40:56.469 text and have this exposure to 1285 00:40:56.470 --> 00:40:57.249 write. 1286 00:40:57.250 --> 00:40:58.509 And you say, I think, very 1287 00:40:58.510 --> 00:41:00.129 powerfully, "nothing less than the 1288 00:41:00.130 --> 00:41:01.509 grounds of social and historical 1289 00:41:01.510 --> 00:41:02.829 experience." This is what can 1290 00:41:02.830 --> 00:41:03.849 happen. 1291 00:41:03.850 --> 00:41:05.709 And this is, to me, what I think is 1292 00:41:05.710 --> 00:41:07.449 a really important thing that you 1293 00:41:07.450 --> 00:41:09.339 write about in the essay 1294 00:41:09.340 --> 00:41:10.779 and something that actually, I'll be 1295 00:41:10.780 --> 00:41:12.189 honest with, has made it very hard 1296 00:41:12.190 --> 00:41:13.269 for me to think of even how to ask a 1297 00:41:13.270 --> 00:41:15.399 question about it, which is that 1298 00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:17.619 it has to be a textual experience. 1299 00:41:17.620 --> 00:41:18.879 You can't say when it happens. 1300 00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:19.869 You can't say how it happens. 1301 00:41:19.870 --> 00:41:21.129 You don't know. It has to be a 1302 00:41:21.130 --> 00:41:22.389 texual experience. It has to happen 1303 00:41:22.390 --> 00:41:23.439 in the text. 1304 00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:24.254 And that's the only way. 1305 00:41:24.255 --> 00:41:25.899 This reminds me, too, of us talking 1306 00:41:25.900 --> 00:41:26.769 about being local. 1307 00:41:26.770 --> 00:41:28.659 That is a local experience there of 1308 00:41:28.660 --> 00:41:30.639 kind of like them encountering 1309 00:41:30.640 --> 00:41:31.539 what's in front of them. 1310 00:41:31.540 --> 00:41:32.919 The students in the room, you as the 1311 00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:34.269 professor. 1312 00:41:34.270 --> 00:41:36.129 And this is a very-- this gets to 1313 00:41:36.130 --> 00:41:37.659 me, that experience kind of gets to 1314 00:41:37.660 --> 00:41:39.069 the heart of both the research and 1315 00:41:39.070 --> 00:41:39.999 the teaching that you're talking 1316 00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:41.349 about in that essay. 1317 00:41:41.350 --> 00:41:42.759 And so, I'll just kind of like give 1318 00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:43.929 that to you and see if you have any 1319 00:41:43.930 --> 00:41:44.979 thoughts on it. As I said, I don't 1320 00:41:44.980 --> 00:41:45.789 know how to ask the question about it. 1321 00:41:45.790 --> 00:41:47.919 Well, even as your question unfolded 1322 00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:50.049 there, you 1323 00:41:50.050 --> 00:41:51.789 started from the dilemma that we 1324 00:41:51.790 --> 00:41:53.469 started from, because you say it has 1325 00:41:53.470 --> 00:41:54.579 to go from the text. 1326 00:41:54.580 --> 00:41:55.869 Well, it's not exactly a text 1327 00:41:55.870 --> 00:41:58.269 because we're also watching films, 1328 00:41:58.270 --> 00:41:59.439 talking about images, 1329 00:42:01.750 --> 00:42:03.699 accounts of experiences 1330 00:42:03.700 --> 00:42:05.529 which, yes, are literary, 1331 00:42:05.530 --> 00:42:06.429 but not always literary. 1332 00:42:06.430 --> 00:42:07.430 And 1333 00:42:08.680 --> 00:42:09.939 then, of course, as you mentioned, 1334 00:42:09.940 --> 00:42:10.940 it's 1335 00:42:11.950 --> 00:42:13.709 the teaching interaction and 1336 00:42:15.250 --> 00:42:17.319 the encounter that's going on 1337 00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:19.360 with and through these 1338 00:42:20.740 --> 00:42:23.709 documents or texts or 1339 00:42:23.710 --> 00:42:25.929 images that this 1340 00:42:25.930 --> 00:42:26.713 experience comes about. 1341 00:42:26.714 --> 00:42:27.714 For 1342 00:42:30.100 --> 00:42:31.959 me, it was fascinating to 1343 00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:33.849 really explore this with 1344 00:42:33.850 --> 00:42:34.981 the students and say to them, "Look, 1345 00:42:36.220 --> 00:42:38.169 I'm going to try to 1346 00:42:38.170 --> 00:42:39.759 get you to change your relation to 1347 00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:41.049 language or to change your 1348 00:42:41.050 --> 00:42:41.969 understanding of language. 1349 00:42:41.970 --> 00:42:43.239 I'm going to try to bring you into 1350 00:42:43.240 --> 00:42:44.709 an experience with language that 1351 00:42:44.710 --> 00:42:45.710 shakes your 1352 00:42:47.650 --> 00:42:49.539 sense of what it is, and 1353 00:42:50.950 --> 00:42:51.950 thereby 1354 00:42:53.310 --> 00:42:55.239 I hope to open up some questions for 1355 00:42:55.240 --> 00:42:57.099 you." And I 1356 00:42:57.100 --> 00:42:58.100 would say, "But I honestly, I'm 1357 00:43:00.010 --> 00:43:01.179 not going to be able to say when 1358 00:43:01.180 --> 00:43:02.049 this happens. 1359 00:43:02.050 --> 00:43:03.459 I'm not going to be able to judge 1360 00:43:03.460 --> 00:43:05.199 how this happens. I can't give you a 1361 00:43:05.200 --> 00:43:06.249 you had a better experience than 1362 00:43:06.250 --> 00:43:07.300 that one. You get an A. Here she gets a B. No." So 1363 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:13.989 judgment, in a sense, went out the 1364 00:43:13.990 --> 00:43:15.879 window. The temporality of it went 1365 00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:17.889 out the window because it's 1366 00:43:17.890 --> 00:43:19.299 been very evident to me over the 1367 00:43:19.300 --> 00:43:21.339 years that what is happening 1368 00:43:21.340 --> 00:43:23.349 in the classroom sometimes has 1369 00:43:23.350 --> 00:43:25.067 a kind of deferred action effect. 1370 00:43:26.680 --> 00:43:27.870 Talks a lot about this and that. 1371 00:43:29.170 --> 00:43:31.419 And it's like what happens through 1372 00:43:31.420 --> 00:43:32.218 any time there's an event. 1373 00:43:32.219 --> 00:43:33.639 There's a slightly traumatic 1374 00:43:33.640 --> 00:43:34.659 dimension to that event. 1375 00:43:34.660 --> 00:43:36.549 And the processing 1376 00:43:36.550 --> 00:43:38.079 of that trauma takes time. 1377 00:43:38.080 --> 00:43:40.163 And I think that this happens in 1378 00:43:41.260 --> 00:43:42.549 teaching as well. 1379 00:43:42.550 --> 00:43:45.039 If you really convey something that 1380 00:43:45.040 --> 00:43:46.869 hits, so to speak, I don't want to 1381 00:43:46.870 --> 00:43:47.859 insist too much on trauma. 1382 00:43:47.860 --> 00:43:50.299 But if there is really 1383 00:43:50.300 --> 00:43:52.179 an event where a student comes 1384 00:43:52.180 --> 00:43:53.529 across something they simply hadn't 1385 00:43:53.530 --> 00:43:55.719 expected or were not 1386 00:43:55.720 --> 00:43:57.729 prepared to assimilate by their 1387 00:43:57.730 --> 00:44:00.279 past training, 1388 00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:01.329 well, it's going to take time for 1389 00:44:01.330 --> 00:44:02.889 them to come to grips with it. 1390 00:44:02.890 --> 00:44:03.942 It may take years to come 1391 00:44:05.140 --> 00:44:05.949 to grips with it. 1392 00:44:05.950 --> 00:44:06.969 So, again, I would say to them, 1393 00:44:06.970 --> 00:44:07.970 "Look, folks. 1394 00:44:08.980 --> 00:44:10.059 The whole question of how I'm going 1395 00:44:10.060 --> 00:44:11.439 to grade you, I'm afraid, is way up 1396 00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:12.779 in the air." 1397 00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:14.799 Got to be a little unsettling. 1398 00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:16.029 There's no simple way of judging 1399 00:44:16.030 --> 00:44:17.030 this. 1400 00:44:17.770 --> 00:44:19.599 And it was really 1401 00:44:19.600 --> 00:44:21.489 about undertaking 1402 00:44:21.490 --> 00:44:22.490 an experience. 1403 00:44:25.940 --> 00:44:27.839 I want to be a 1404 00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:28.840 little bit-- 1405 00:44:30.160 --> 00:44:31.389 I sort of want to be a little bit 1406 00:44:31.390 --> 00:44:32.652 cautious, or rather I want to say I 1407 00:44:33.700 --> 00:44:34.779 think this happens every time 1408 00:44:34.780 --> 00:44:36.189 there's teaching. 1409 00:44:36.190 --> 00:44:37.449 Every time teaching occurs in the 1410 00:44:37.450 --> 00:44:38.769 strong sense that we've been talking 1411 00:44:38.770 --> 00:44:40.389 about something like this is 1412 00:44:40.390 --> 00:44:41.390 happening. 1413 00:44:42.250 --> 00:44:43.959 In this case, I was actually trying 1414 00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:45.549 to draw them toward the question of 1415 00:44:45.550 --> 00:44:47.439 language. And so I 1416 00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:49.669 had a fascinating experience. 1417 00:44:49.670 --> 00:44:51.489 And it's not just--it's very 1418 00:44:51.490 --> 00:44:53.609 banal, but it touches 1419 00:44:53.610 --> 00:44:56.039 upon this attention to the text. 1420 00:44:56.040 --> 00:44:57.664 There's a text by Ota Yoko called 1421 00:44:57.665 --> 00:44:59.909 City of Corpses that I refer to. 1422 00:44:59.910 --> 00:45:01.919 And it is a very 1423 00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:04.139 harrowing testimony from 1424 00:45:05.430 --> 00:45:06.929 someone who survived Hiroshima. 1425 00:45:08.580 --> 00:45:09.989 And I've been thinking about it a 1426 00:45:09.990 --> 00:45:11.819 lot recently and even going to 1427 00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:12.820 that. But 1428 00:45:17.850 --> 00:45:20.549 it's quite extraordinary. 1429 00:45:20.550 --> 00:45:22.109 And it's a very problematic text 1430 00:45:22.110 --> 00:45:24.089 because Ota Yoko is really not sure 1431 00:45:24.090 --> 00:45:25.919 how to present what she has to 1432 00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:27.179 present. She's not even sure what it 1433 00:45:27.180 --> 00:45:28.739 is that she's trying to present. 1434 00:45:28.740 --> 00:45:30.689 So you have a text of a very 1435 00:45:30.690 --> 00:45:31.690 complex form. 1436 00:45:32.730 --> 00:45:34.589 It strives to be scientific 1437 00:45:34.590 --> 00:45:35.819 and recording at moments or 1438 00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:37.319 historical. At other moments, it's 1439 00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:39.119 more reflective. 1440 00:45:39.120 --> 00:45:40.410 But near the end of it, 1441 00:45:41.580 --> 00:45:43.619 Ota Yoko comes to a 1442 00:45:43.620 --> 00:45:45.479 more-- she's sort of drawing 1443 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:47.579 forth a lesson. And she says-- 1444 00:45:47.580 --> 00:45:49.409 forgive me, I didn't get a chance 1445 00:45:49.410 --> 00:45:50.459 to look at this. 1446 00:45:50.460 --> 00:45:51.599 I haven't looked at it recently, so 1447 00:45:51.600 --> 00:45:52.619 I can't cite precisely. 1448 00:45:52.620 --> 00:45:54.179 But she said something like, "I now 1449 00:45:54.180 --> 00:45:55.180 understand 1450 00:45:56.220 --> 00:45:58.169 the meaning of 1451 00:45:58.170 --> 00:45:59.999 life or life or 1452 00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:01.409 existence," something like that. 1453 00:46:01.410 --> 00:46:03.539 And she says, she continues-- that's 1454 00:46:03.540 --> 00:46:04.465 one sense. The next sentence says, 1455 00:46:04.466 --> 00:46:06.889 "Everything depended 1456 00:46:06.890 --> 00:46:08.809 on where you stood that 1457 00:46:08.810 --> 00:46:10.639 morning." Then the 1458 00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:12.769 next sentence, "The Japanese 1459 00:46:12.770 --> 00:46:14.599 have too much of a preoccupation 1460 00:46:14.600 --> 00:46:15.769 with possessions. 1461 00:46:15.770 --> 00:46:16.909 They--" and then the rest of the 1462 00:46:16.910 --> 00:46:19.249 paragraph is about possessions. 1463 00:46:19.250 --> 00:46:21.349 So I would work through this text 1464 00:46:21.350 --> 00:46:22.699 with the students. I would try to 1465 00:46:22.700 --> 00:46:24.649 get them to recognize where she was 1466 00:46:24.650 --> 00:46:27.499 drawing upon forms of poetry, 1467 00:46:27.500 --> 00:46:28.909 what it meant that sometimes she was 1468 00:46:28.910 --> 00:46:30.289 going to-- why documentation? 1469 00:46:30.290 --> 00:46:32.679 Why preparing the ground like this? 1470 00:46:32.680 --> 00:46:34.089 I was trying to link this to what 1471 00:46:34.090 --> 00:46:35.559 Claude Lanzmann was doing in the 1472 00:46:35.560 --> 00:46:36.549 Shoah and the way he tries to lay 1473 00:46:36.550 --> 00:46:39.069 the ground for the camps. 1474 00:46:39.070 --> 00:46:40.959 But I'd work through 1475 00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:42.339 issues like that. And I came to the 1476 00:46:42.340 --> 00:46:43.795 end, and I read this sort of 1477 00:46:43.796 --> 00:46:44.796 concluding 1478 00:46:45.970 --> 00:46:47.469 message, so to speak. 1479 00:46:47.470 --> 00:46:49.539 And I would say, "Okay, what 1480 00:46:49.540 --> 00:46:52.119 is the meaning of life, and 1481 00:46:52.120 --> 00:46:54.029 what has she discovered there?" 1482 00:46:54.030 --> 00:46:56.309 And I can tell you that in 1483 00:46:56.310 --> 00:46:58.169 maybe six 1484 00:46:58.170 --> 00:47:00.089 or seven times I've 1485 00:47:00.090 --> 00:47:02.129 taught this text with what then 1486 00:47:02.130 --> 00:47:04.619 must be about 200 students, 1487 00:47:04.620 --> 00:47:06.929 I've never had the answer 1488 00:47:06.930 --> 00:47:09.219 that I was looking for. 1489 00:47:09.220 --> 00:47:11.079 Because again, the text goes, 1490 00:47:11.080 --> 00:47:12.489 "I now understand the meaning of 1491 00:47:12.490 --> 00:47:14.229 life. Everything depends on where 1492 00:47:14.230 --> 00:47:15.579 you stood that morning. 1493 00:47:15.580 --> 00:47:16.479 The Japanese have too many 1494 00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:17.649 possessions." Right? 1495 00:47:17.650 --> 00:47:19.299 Nobody reads that sentence. 1496 00:47:19.300 --> 00:47:21.009 Everything depends on where you 1497 00:47:21.010 --> 00:47:22.029 stood that morning. 1498 00:47:22.030 --> 00:47:24.069 And in other words, it's 1499 00:47:24.070 --> 00:47:25.929 a meditation on contingency, 1500 00:47:25.930 --> 00:47:28.209 radical contingency, and 1501 00:47:28.210 --> 00:47:29.210 the meaning of that for 1502 00:47:30.490 --> 00:47:31.839 existence. 1503 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:32.840 And 1504 00:47:34.690 --> 00:47:36.669 as I say, in that so many years, 1505 00:47:36.670 --> 00:47:38.499 hundreds of students, I 1506 00:47:38.500 --> 00:47:40.389 never had anyone pick that up. 1507 00:47:40.390 --> 00:47:41.709 And I would ask-- I mean, I would 1508 00:47:41.710 --> 00:47:42.909 set this up so carefully. 1509 00:47:42.910 --> 00:47:44.259 Okay. What's the answer? 1510 00:47:44.260 --> 00:47:46.689 Nobody has that answer. 1511 00:47:46.690 --> 00:47:48.279 Why is it? It's because they're not 1512 00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:49.156 reading the text. 1513 00:47:49.157 --> 00:47:50.157 They've 1514 00:47:51.190 --> 00:47:52.659 been taught to look for the message 1515 00:47:52.660 --> 00:47:53.889 to the lesson. 1516 00:47:53.890 --> 00:47:55.809 They can't read literally 1517 00:47:55.810 --> 00:47:57.519 in that way. So the rest of the 1518 00:47:57.520 --> 00:47:59.019 paragraph talks about having too 1519 00:47:59.020 --> 00:48:00.909 many possessions and identity 1520 00:48:00.910 --> 00:48:02.319 and so on and so forth. 1521 00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:03.819 They know that message, right? 1522 00:48:03.820 --> 00:48:04.820 Yeah. They go straight for that. 1523 00:48:06.410 --> 00:48:08.709 And at that point, in that course, 1524 00:48:08.710 --> 00:48:10.119 it was simply a matter of teaching 1525 00:48:10.120 --> 00:48:11.229 them to read. 1526 00:48:11.230 --> 00:48:12.639 Read with me. 1527 00:48:12.640 --> 00:48:14.409 And what does that mean? 1528 00:48:14.410 --> 00:48:15.999 Why is that there and so forth? 1529 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:17.829 It's a very banal thing in a 1530 00:48:17.830 --> 00:48:19.179 certain sense. But as soon as that 1531 00:48:19.180 --> 00:48:21.039 question opens up contingency. 1532 00:48:21.040 --> 00:48:22.749 Wow. Right? 1533 00:48:22.750 --> 00:48:24.969 What does that say about life and 1534 00:48:24.970 --> 00:48:26.439 what she's trying to come to grips 1535 00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:28.269 with? So and 1536 00:48:28.270 --> 00:48:29.270 then there's 1537 00:48:30.130 --> 00:48:32.199 this major philosophical issue 1538 00:48:32.200 --> 00:48:34.089 on the table, and then I try 1539 00:48:34.090 --> 00:48:35.090 to work from there. 1540 00:48:38.590 --> 00:48:40.299 Claude Lanzmann's Shoah has also 1541 00:48:40.300 --> 00:48:41.649 some absolutely extraordinary 1542 00:48:41.650 --> 00:48:42.650 moments like that 1543 00:48:43.780 --> 00:48:46.029 where I would just pause the 1544 00:48:46.030 --> 00:48:47.628 film and say, "Okay, let's look at 1545 00:48:47.629 --> 00:48:49.779 how these words are forming. 1546 00:48:49.780 --> 00:48:50.949 Can you hear how the tone is 1547 00:48:50.950 --> 00:48:51.950 changing here? 1548 00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:54.099 Can you hear how this person's 1549 00:48:54.100 --> 00:48:55.149 stuttering? 1550 00:48:55.150 --> 00:48:57.129 What's happening?" And to just 1551 00:48:57.130 --> 00:48:58.989 go into-- and I would 1552 00:48:58.990 --> 00:49:00.909 try to get them to understand 1553 00:49:00.910 --> 00:49:02.979 this is no longer simply 1554 00:49:02.980 --> 00:49:04.659 a testimony or an account. 1555 00:49:04.660 --> 00:49:06.849 Something else is being said, 1556 00:49:06.850 --> 00:49:07.869 or more is being said. 1557 00:49:07.870 --> 00:49:09.219 And I would try to search with them. 1558 00:49:09.220 --> 00:49:10.220 And so I was trying to, 1559 00:49:11.410 --> 00:49:12.909 in a certain sense, break down their 1560 00:49:12.910 --> 00:49:14.410 understanding of representation and 1561 00:49:15.820 --> 00:49:17.679 to grasp that more is 1562 00:49:17.680 --> 00:49:19.599 going on with language than the 1563 00:49:19.600 --> 00:49:21.639 idea of representation immediately 1564 00:49:21.640 --> 00:49:22.640 presents. 1565 00:49:28.300 --> 00:49:30.369 But that's what one 1566 00:49:30.370 --> 00:49:32.229 does in a class 1567 00:49:32.230 --> 00:49:34.179 in the humanities. 1568 00:49:34.180 --> 00:49:36.069 You look closely at the 1569 00:49:36.070 --> 00:49:37.070 document 1570 00:49:37.990 --> 00:49:39.429 or the event or whatever, and you 1571 00:49:39.430 --> 00:49:41.679 try to question and make sense, 1572 00:49:41.680 --> 00:49:42.680 and sometimes 1573 00:49:44.490 --> 00:49:45.749 there are no answers. 1574 00:49:45.750 --> 00:49:46.750 But 1575 00:49:48.390 --> 00:49:50.039 for me, it's tremendously exciting 1576 00:49:50.040 --> 00:49:51.040 to be able to 1577 00:49:52.770 --> 00:49:54.479 expose students to that kind of 1578 00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:55.480 discovery. Oh, a text can do that. 1579 00:49:58.860 --> 00:50:00.869 Well, sure. And we've talked here. 1580 00:50:00.870 --> 00:50:01.829 I mean, you were just describing 1581 00:50:01.830 --> 00:50:03.389 kind of like an experience of 1582 00:50:03.390 --> 00:50:04.559 teaching reading, and it's looking 1583 00:50:04.560 --> 00:50:05.729 at one sentence after another. 1584 00:50:05.730 --> 00:50:08.069 But that's the kind of work 1585 00:50:08.070 --> 00:50:10.109 that many 1586 00:50:10.110 --> 00:50:11.909 teachers do in the humanities. 1587 00:50:11.910 --> 00:50:13.799 That opens up the possibility 1588 00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:15.659 for the kinds of exposure that 1589 00:50:15.660 --> 00:50:16.859 we're talking about that really are 1590 00:50:16.860 --> 00:50:18.749 these kinds of important moments. 1591 00:50:18.750 --> 00:50:19.529 You don't know when they're going to 1592 00:50:19.530 --> 00:50:20.369 happen. You don't know how it could 1593 00:50:20.370 --> 00:50:21.989 happen years after. 1594 00:50:21.990 --> 00:50:23.129 That's certainly been something that 1595 00:50:23.130 --> 00:50:24.130 happened to me before. 1596 00:50:26.250 --> 00:50:27.629 But it's based on that kind of that 1597 00:50:27.630 --> 00:50:28.630 kind of thing. 1598 00:50:29.700 --> 00:50:30.659 Well, let me ask you-- I want to ask 1599 00:50:30.660 --> 00:50:32.249 you one or two questions about the 1600 00:50:32.250 --> 00:50:33.250 European Graduate School. 1601 00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:37.769 You have been there-- you've 1602 00:50:37.770 --> 00:50:39.899 been dean for a few years 1603 00:50:39.900 --> 00:50:40.900 in the - 1604 00:50:42.390 --> 00:50:43.619 you'll have to remind me - the 1605 00:50:43.620 --> 00:50:44.789 Division of Philosophy, Art, and 1606 00:50:44.790 --> 00:50:45.869 Critical Thought at the European 1607 00:50:45.870 --> 00:50:46.769 Graduate School. 1608 00:50:46.770 --> 00:50:47.609 The school was founded in 1609 00:50:47.610 --> 00:50:49.679 Switzerland in 1994. 1610 00:50:49.680 --> 00:50:51.899 It's an interesting location, 1611 00:50:51.900 --> 00:50:54.059 and it seems to me it was founded 1612 00:50:54.060 --> 00:50:56.699 specifically to 1613 00:50:56.700 --> 00:50:58.259 exist outside of kind of the 1614 00:50:58.260 --> 00:51:00.149 disciplinary structures that we're 1615 00:51:00.150 --> 00:51:01.469 familiar with, I think, in U.S. 1616 00:51:01.470 --> 00:51:03.510 higher education, and not just U.S.. 1617 00:51:04.950 --> 00:51:06.779 Is it a place-- have you found it 1618 00:51:06.780 --> 00:51:09.059 to be a place where it's 1619 00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:12.299 easier to create the kinds 1620 00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:13.439 of experiences that we've been 1621 00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:14.649 talking about here with language? 1622 00:51:14.650 --> 00:51:15.959 And if so, why is that? 1623 00:51:18.300 --> 00:51:20.729 Well, partly 1624 00:51:20.730 --> 00:51:22.769 the reason for that is 1625 00:51:22.770 --> 00:51:25.199 we have a very, very 1626 00:51:25.200 --> 00:51:27.119 lean administrative structure. 1627 00:51:27.120 --> 00:51:28.120 We bring in 1628 00:51:29.490 --> 00:51:31.739 top people, very 1629 00:51:31.740 --> 00:51:34.169 inspired people, and we say, 1630 00:51:34.170 --> 00:51:35.170 "Do whatever you want." 1631 00:51:37.230 --> 00:51:39.092 And there, 1632 00:51:39.093 --> 00:51:40.889 actually, that touches upon 1633 00:51:40.890 --> 00:51:42.929 something that I want to come back 1634 00:51:42.930 --> 00:51:44.789 to. I hope we can find a way 1635 00:51:44.790 --> 00:51:46.259 into that, which is the question of 1636 00:51:46.260 --> 00:51:47.189 academic freedom. 1637 00:51:47.190 --> 00:51:49.109 That topic has become 1638 00:51:49.110 --> 00:51:51.029 more and more pressing to 1639 00:51:51.030 --> 00:51:51.899 me. 1640 00:51:51.900 --> 00:51:54.359 I'm beginning to wonder 1641 00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:56.669 to what extent that very easily 1642 00:51:56.670 --> 00:51:58.889 dropped phrase is understood 1643 00:51:58.890 --> 00:52:01.289 and what's really at stake in it. 1644 00:52:01.290 --> 00:52:03.029 I think that what I was talking 1645 00:52:03.030 --> 00:52:04.409 about before as teaching that 1646 00:52:04.410 --> 00:52:06.389 research is an instance of 1647 00:52:06.390 --> 00:52:08.459 exercising academic freedom because 1648 00:52:08.460 --> 00:52:10.439 when one goes in without 1649 00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:11.596 knowing exactly where one's going, 1650 00:52:11.597 --> 00:52:13.919 one is exercising 1651 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:14.920 a form of freedom. 1652 00:52:19.520 --> 00:52:20.520 At the EGS, 1653 00:52:22.700 --> 00:52:24.439 we don't answer to any state 1654 00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:25.639 dictates. 1655 00:52:25.640 --> 00:52:28.069 So we have the freedom 1656 00:52:28.070 --> 00:52:29.179 of escaping 1657 00:52:30.740 --> 00:52:32.659 the neoliberal agenda as it's set up 1658 00:52:32.660 --> 00:52:34.399 within the academic system in 1659 00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:35.400 Europe. And in 1660 00:52:36.890 --> 00:52:39.109 Europe, that is becoming fierce. 1661 00:52:39.110 --> 00:52:40.110 I watched it. 1662 00:52:41.420 --> 00:52:42.769 I've been wondering if, at some 1663 00:52:42.770 --> 00:52:44.179 point in our discussion of The Claim 1664 00:52:44.180 --> 00:52:45.180 of Language, which is 1665 00:52:46.160 --> 00:52:47.160 14 years old now, well, 1666 00:52:50.630 --> 00:52:52.339 how does that bear on our situation 1667 00:52:52.340 --> 00:52:53.359 today? 1668 00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:54.979 And my first-- as I was thinking 1669 00:52:54.980 --> 00:52:55.909 about how I would answer that, I'd 1670 00:52:55.910 --> 00:52:56.719 say, "Well, you know what, I haven't 1671 00:52:56.720 --> 00:52:57.979 been in the United States very much 1672 00:52:57.980 --> 00:52:59.989 in the last 10 years or 12 1673 00:52:59.990 --> 00:53:00.229 years. 1674 00:53:00.230 --> 00:53:01.099 Yeah. You were at the University of 1675 00:53:01.100 --> 00:53:01.459 Aberdeen. 1676 00:53:01.460 --> 00:53:02.869 I was, yes. I was in Scotland. 1677 00:53:02.870 --> 00:53:04.819 Yeah. From 2004, yes? 1678 00:53:04.820 --> 00:53:05.820 2005. 1679 00:53:08.030 --> 00:53:09.859 And things have changed in very 1680 00:53:09.860 --> 00:53:11.389 important ways. 1681 00:53:11.390 --> 00:53:12.980 Things have changed considerably. 1682 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:17.269 But I also watched in the UK 1683 00:53:17.270 --> 00:53:18.270 an incredible process 1684 00:53:21.380 --> 00:53:22.339 of dismantling. 1685 00:53:22.340 --> 00:53:24.319 I mean, the situation in the UK 1686 00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:25.549 for the humanities in particular, 1687 00:53:25.550 --> 00:53:27.019 but I would say, across the 1688 00:53:27.020 --> 00:53:29.719 university, is near catastrophic. 1689 00:53:29.720 --> 00:53:31.549 And this has to do with the way in 1690 00:53:31.550 --> 00:53:33.439 which the government has 1691 00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:35.329 been drawing 1692 00:53:35.330 --> 00:53:37.429 the university system into its 1693 00:53:38.600 --> 00:53:40.519 economic and political imperatives. 1694 00:53:40.520 --> 00:53:41.809 So you have this notion of social 1695 00:53:41.810 --> 00:53:43.639 impact in the UK, which 1696 00:53:43.640 --> 00:53:44.959 governs all research. 1697 00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:45.859 It's got to be measurable. 1698 00:53:45.860 --> 00:53:47.209 It's got to be measurable. 1699 00:53:47.210 --> 00:53:48.799 It's got to be justified at long 1700 00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:51.259 length. And 1701 00:53:51.260 --> 00:53:53.419 the results are just disastrous 1702 00:53:53.420 --> 00:53:55.459 for the humanities in many 1703 00:53:55.460 --> 00:53:57.589 ways. And I wrote an essay called 1704 00:53:57.590 --> 00:53:59.029 Autonomy and Academic Freedom, in 1705 00:53:59.030 --> 00:54:01.159 which I tried to document 1706 00:54:01.160 --> 00:54:02.419 just a little instance of this, what 1707 00:54:02.420 --> 00:54:03.829 happened to me when I tried to write 1708 00:54:03.830 --> 00:54:04.830 a grant 1709 00:54:05.660 --> 00:54:06.679 devoted to 1710 00:54:08.240 --> 00:54:09.919 developing the training of teachers 1711 00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:10.819 in Scotland. 1712 00:54:10.820 --> 00:54:12.319 So I'm teaching at a low level, 1713 00:54:12.320 --> 00:54:14.239 right? And not higher education. 1714 00:54:15.530 --> 00:54:17.959 And it was quite 1715 00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:19.339 a profound experience for me because 1716 00:54:19.340 --> 00:54:20.659 I realized at that point to what 1717 00:54:20.660 --> 00:54:22.879 extent the administrative structures 1718 00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:24.169 that most of my younger colleagues 1719 00:54:24.170 --> 00:54:26.329 were dealing with were 1720 00:54:26.330 --> 00:54:27.359 actually forming them. 1721 00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:29.629 And I 1722 00:54:29.630 --> 00:54:30.619 mentioned it, and I said, "You know, 1723 00:54:30.620 --> 00:54:31.620 when I was coming 1724 00:54:32.590 --> 00:54:34.749 up in my earlier 1725 00:54:34.750 --> 00:54:36.429 years, we used to say, 'Yes, well, 1726 00:54:36.430 --> 00:54:37.539 you have to spend a certain amount 1727 00:54:37.540 --> 00:54:38.979 of time either in administration or 1728 00:54:38.980 --> 00:54:40.929 grant writing.' Maybe 1729 00:54:40.930 --> 00:54:42.879 25% or 30% of one's time. 1730 00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:44.289 But that's right. You get that done, 1731 00:54:44.290 --> 00:54:45.309 and then you go on and do what you 1732 00:54:45.310 --> 00:54:47.169 want to do." It's 1733 00:54:47.170 --> 00:54:48.399 become clear to me, first of all, 1734 00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:50.199 that the percentages are much higher 1735 00:54:50.200 --> 00:54:52.149 now, but also that 1736 00:54:52.150 --> 00:54:54.369 this work isn't simply 1737 00:54:54.370 --> 00:54:56.289 something that one can then leave 1738 00:54:56.290 --> 00:54:58.869 behind and turn freely to 1739 00:54:58.870 --> 00:55:00.009 one's other work. No, in fact, it's 1740 00:55:00.010 --> 00:55:02.229 shaping how people think and write 1741 00:55:02.230 --> 00:55:04.509 and pose their questions. 1742 00:55:04.510 --> 00:55:06.389 So it is incredibly coercive, 1743 00:55:06.390 --> 00:55:07.825 in my view, incredibly coercive. 1744 00:55:09.890 --> 00:55:11.419 The EGS doesn't have to answer to 1745 00:55:11.420 --> 00:55:13.879 those those imperatives. 1746 00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:15.649 It unfortunately has to answer to 1747 00:55:15.650 --> 00:55:17.539 market imperatives because 1748 00:55:17.540 --> 00:55:18.540 we have to attract students. 1749 00:55:19.640 --> 00:55:21.259 We are tuition-driven because we 1750 00:55:21.260 --> 00:55:22.260 have no state support. 1751 00:55:23.300 --> 00:55:25.339 Our existence 1752 00:55:25.340 --> 00:55:27.319 is entirely-- or has been, 1753 00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:29.299 up to this point, entirely 1754 00:55:29.300 --> 00:55:30.489 dependent on 1755 00:55:31.490 --> 00:55:33.469 student participation 1756 00:55:33.470 --> 00:55:35.479 and tuition, increasingly 1757 00:55:35.480 --> 00:55:36.709 returning to fundraising. 1758 00:55:36.710 --> 00:55:37.710 But 1759 00:55:39.330 --> 00:55:41.389 throughout the two decades 1760 00:55:41.390 --> 00:55:43.189 of existence of the division for 1761 00:55:43.190 --> 00:55:44.629 which I serve as dean-- there are 1762 00:55:44.630 --> 00:55:45.919 two divisions. 1763 00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:48.379 So the division for which I serve 1764 00:55:48.380 --> 00:55:49.380 has 1765 00:55:50.210 --> 00:55:52.669 not had to answer to anyone about 1766 00:55:52.670 --> 00:55:53.839 what we do. 1767 00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:56.539 And so that allows both for 1768 00:55:56.540 --> 00:55:58.519 this freedom that I'm referring to 1769 00:55:58.520 --> 00:55:59.520 in the seminar room but 1770 00:56:02.410 --> 00:56:04.239 also the really 1771 00:56:04.240 --> 00:56:06.709 quite radical cross-disciplinary 1772 00:56:06.710 --> 00:56:07.784 experimentation going on. 1773 00:56:07.785 --> 00:56:09.939 So that in 1774 00:56:09.940 --> 00:56:11.589 one of our sessions, students may 1775 00:56:11.590 --> 00:56:13.120 have a course in film, a course in 1776 00:56:16.120 --> 00:56:17.120 digital thought 1777 00:56:18.130 --> 00:56:20.169 or digital design, maybe 1778 00:56:20.170 --> 00:56:21.189 a course in philosophy, maybe a 1779 00:56:21.190 --> 00:56:23.079 course in psychoanalysis, and they 1780 00:56:23.080 --> 00:56:25.239 go from field to field 1781 00:56:25.240 --> 00:56:27.219 in, I 1782 00:56:27.220 --> 00:56:28.779 think, incredibly productive but 1783 00:56:28.780 --> 00:56:29.889 also very challenging way. 1784 00:56:29.890 --> 00:56:32.019 And they have to address fundamental 1785 00:56:32.020 --> 00:56:33.939 questions in each of these fields. 1786 00:56:33.940 --> 00:56:35.919 So it 1787 00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:37.329 allows us to do some 1788 00:56:39.100 --> 00:56:40.659 pedagogical experimentation that 1789 00:56:40.660 --> 00:56:42.789 just would not be possible in 1790 00:56:42.790 --> 00:56:44.889 most contexts and 1791 00:56:44.890 --> 00:56:47.749 certainly contexts 1792 00:56:47.750 --> 00:56:49.359 which are struggling for existence 1793 00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:51.309 within these large technocratic 1794 00:56:51.310 --> 00:56:52.749 organizations or even within the 1795 00:56:52.750 --> 00:56:54.519 bureaucracies of the contemporary 1796 00:56:54.520 --> 00:56:55.689 North American University. 1797 00:56:55.690 --> 00:56:58.059 Yeah. I mean, I'll say just to speak 1798 00:56:58.060 --> 00:57:00.189 from a position at the University 1799 00:57:00.190 --> 00:57:01.190 of Pittsburgh really quickly. The 1800 00:57:01.990 --> 00:57:03.639 University of Pittsburgh has been a 1801 00:57:03.640 --> 00:57:05.949 state-related university for 1802 00:57:05.950 --> 00:57:07.569 50 years or so. 1803 00:57:07.570 --> 00:57:10.089 The state support has been 1804 00:57:10.090 --> 00:57:11.090 steadily dropping. 1805 00:57:12.430 --> 00:57:13.809 It's now in a position where it's 1806 00:57:13.810 --> 00:57:14.949 thinking about maybe it'll be 1807 00:57:14.950 --> 00:57:16.149 private sometime soon. 1808 00:57:16.150 --> 00:57:17.829 And part of the discussion that 1809 00:57:17.830 --> 00:57:19.179 happens on campus around that is 1810 00:57:19.180 --> 00:57:21.249 that will be-- the people 1811 00:57:21.250 --> 00:57:23.439 I've talked to see it as 1812 00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:25.569 being a step away from 1813 00:57:25.570 --> 00:57:27.069 kind of serving the public in some 1814 00:57:27.070 --> 00:57:28.749 way. And there's a-- but the way 1815 00:57:28.750 --> 00:57:30.129 we're talking about it here and the 1816 00:57:30.130 --> 00:57:31.389 way you're talking about responding 1817 00:57:31.390 --> 00:57:33.549 to the state actually makes it 1818 00:57:33.550 --> 00:57:34.550 sound like 1819 00:57:35.860 --> 00:57:37.479 that might actually not be the 1820 00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:38.289 right-- I don't know. I mean, there's 1821 00:57:38.290 --> 00:57:39.489 a different-- you're allowed to do 1822 00:57:39.490 --> 00:57:40.569 certain things without that 1823 00:57:40.570 --> 00:57:41.746 attachment that 1824 00:57:44.080 --> 00:57:45.309 you can't do with it if you have to 1825 00:57:45.310 --> 00:57:46.479 respond-- so I don't know. I mean, I 1826 00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:47.559 wonder if you have any thoughts 1827 00:57:47.560 --> 00:57:49.689 because when you worked in 1828 00:57:49.690 --> 00:57:51.459 the U.S., you were in Binghamton in 1829 00:57:51.460 --> 00:57:52.249 the SUNY system. 1830 00:57:52.250 --> 00:57:53.169 I was in the SUNY system. 1831 00:57:53.170 --> 00:57:55.179 And I was very proud 1832 00:57:55.180 --> 00:57:56.109 to be working in a public 1833 00:57:56.110 --> 00:57:57.915 university. And I feel that very 1834 00:57:57.916 --> 00:57:58.916 strongly. 1835 00:57:59.580 --> 00:58:02.349 I want to 1836 00:58:02.350 --> 00:58:04.149 be in an institution that opens as 1837 00:58:04.150 --> 00:58:06.039 broadly as possible. 1838 00:58:06.040 --> 00:58:07.869 And that's a bit 1839 00:58:07.870 --> 00:58:09.309 of a dilemma in the European 1840 00:58:09.310 --> 00:58:11.229 Graduate School because we 1841 00:58:11.230 --> 00:58:12.819 have to charge. There's just no way 1842 00:58:12.820 --> 00:58:13.209 around this. 1843 00:58:13.210 --> 00:58:14.379 Well, the tuition is not that high. 1844 00:58:14.380 --> 00:58:15.579 It's not as high as it in a lot of 1845 00:58:15.580 --> 00:58:16.869 U.S. institutions. 1846 00:58:16.870 --> 00:58:18.039 We're able to keep it down. 1847 00:58:18.040 --> 00:58:19.479 And that I'm very happy about. 1848 00:58:19.480 --> 00:58:21.339 But I see 1849 00:58:21.340 --> 00:58:23.559 us possibly as serving the public 1850 00:58:23.560 --> 00:58:24.560 in different ways at EGS. 1851 00:58:26.350 --> 00:58:27.549 First of all, all the material, and 1852 00:58:27.550 --> 00:58:29.559 we offer openly, 1853 00:58:29.560 --> 00:58:31.389 but also we're trying 1854 00:58:31.390 --> 00:58:33.249 to, I suppose, 1855 00:58:33.250 --> 00:58:35.139 work to try to introduce some kind 1856 00:58:35.140 --> 00:58:36.909 of leverage in the European context 1857 00:58:36.910 --> 00:58:38.879 to open up other possibilities and 1858 00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:41.649 to show other ways of proceeding. 1859 00:58:41.650 --> 00:58:43.569 And I think this is working a bit. 1860 00:58:43.570 --> 00:58:44.859 I mean, we're a small institution, 1861 00:58:44.860 --> 00:58:45.729 so I have to be modest. 1862 00:58:45.730 --> 00:58:47.649 But that's the idea anyway, that 1863 00:58:47.650 --> 00:58:49.659 we could be helping to 1864 00:58:49.660 --> 00:58:51.669 lead in showing 1865 00:58:51.670 --> 00:58:52.749 what a university can be. 1866 00:58:52.750 --> 00:58:54.909 What's possible in the university 1867 00:58:54.910 --> 00:58:56.889 context? And I can see already 1868 00:58:56.890 --> 00:58:58.269 in working with faculty at the 1869 00:58:58.270 --> 00:58:59.270 University of Malta that 1870 00:59:00.820 --> 00:59:02.919 we're bringing possibilities that 1871 00:59:02.920 --> 00:59:04.989 enhance Malta and the University 1872 00:59:04.990 --> 00:59:06.834 of Malta's offerings. 1873 00:59:06.835 --> 00:59:07.835 They're 1874 00:59:10.810 --> 00:59:12.429 created for the faculty involved 1875 00:59:12.430 --> 00:59:14.139 from Malta but also for us. 1876 00:59:14.140 --> 00:59:15.639 There's some wonderful faculty there 1877 00:59:15.640 --> 00:59:16.989 in Malta. And so we're able to do 1878 00:59:16.990 --> 00:59:17.799 things that we couldn't do 1879 00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:18.800 otherwise. And 1880 00:59:19.660 --> 00:59:21.849 we're introducing a sort of subtle 1881 00:59:21.850 --> 00:59:23.739 displacement there and, at the 1882 00:59:23.740 --> 00:59:25.599 same time, doing work that has, 1883 00:59:25.600 --> 00:59:27.549 I think, quite 1884 00:59:27.550 --> 00:59:28.569 broad recognition. 1885 00:59:28.570 --> 00:59:30.549 So it has a public 1886 00:59:30.550 --> 00:59:32.199 sense in that way as well. 1887 00:59:32.200 --> 00:59:33.969 But I did come to an understanding 1888 00:59:33.970 --> 00:59:34.970 in the UK that being 1889 00:59:38.180 --> 00:59:40.279 answerable to public authorities 1890 00:59:40.280 --> 00:59:41.280 wasn't always 1891 00:59:42.140 --> 00:59:43.140 the best thing. 1892 00:59:44.180 --> 00:59:46.759 And certainly, in that context, 1893 00:59:46.760 --> 00:59:47.760 there was a-- in 1894 00:59:49.070 --> 00:59:50.070 the North American context, it's 1895 00:59:51.220 --> 00:59:52.299 incredibly complicated. 1896 00:59:52.300 --> 00:59:53.469 It's the sheer power of the 1897 00:59:53.470 --> 00:59:54.609 universities that allows for 1898 00:59:54.610 --> 00:59:56.709 something like what we call academic 1899 00:59:56.710 --> 00:59:57.710 freedom and some 1900 00:59:59.350 --> 01:00:00.350 independence from 1901 01:00:01.660 --> 01:00:03.280 state or corporate imperatives. 1902 01:00:05.610 --> 01:00:06.664 But that structure 1903 01:00:07.840 --> 01:00:09.639 in itself is somewhat-- it's the 1904 01:00:09.640 --> 01:00:11.079 privileged, private universities 1905 01:00:11.080 --> 01:00:13.149 that excel there, and those 1906 01:00:13.150 --> 01:00:14.595 who are more exposed to external 1907 01:00:20.930 --> 01:00:23.239 demands are 1908 01:00:23.240 --> 01:00:25.309 less able to preserve what I think 1909 01:00:25.310 --> 01:00:26.929 is really critical in the 1910 01:00:26.930 --> 01:00:28.879 humanities. I'm going 1911 01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:29.692 too quickly there. 1912 01:00:29.693 --> 01:00:31.129 It's an immense topic, but. 1913 01:00:31.130 --> 01:00:31.999 Well, yeah. 1914 01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:33.349 I mean, my last question, hearing 1915 01:00:33.350 --> 01:00:35.749 you talk about the 1916 01:00:35.750 --> 01:00:37.579 about EGS and the kind of 1917 01:00:38.690 --> 01:00:39.690 the way that it participates 1918 01:00:40.940 --> 01:00:42.379 really in the university system in 1919 01:00:42.380 --> 01:00:44.779 Europe, made me wonder 1920 01:00:44.780 --> 01:00:46.609 what it would take to get one in the 1921 01:00:46.610 --> 01:00:48.139 U.S.. What are your thoughts? 1922 01:00:48.140 --> 01:00:49.079 Oh, an EGS in the U.S.? 1923 01:00:49.080 --> 01:00:50.080 Yeah, sure. 1924 01:00:51.100 --> 01:00:51.739 USGS. 1925 01:00:51.740 --> 01:00:52.740 You know one thing, 1926 01:00:54.390 --> 01:00:56.279 I think there are a 1927 01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:58.829 lot of incipient 1928 01:00:58.830 --> 01:00:59.830 EGSs going on. And 1929 01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:02.759 I think this is also very important 1930 01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:04.798 in considering the state of the 1931 01:01:04.799 --> 01:01:05.879 humanities. We have to be looking at 1932 01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:07.229 all of the sites in which the 1933 01:01:07.230 --> 01:01:09.179 humanities are unfolding. 1934 01:01:09.180 --> 01:01:11.249 And there are 1935 01:01:11.250 --> 01:01:12.250 a lot more than I know. 1936 01:01:15.090 --> 01:01:17.069 The Web has allowed that. 1937 01:01:17.070 --> 01:01:18.070 But 1938 01:01:18.920 --> 01:01:19.920 I really think that 1939 01:01:21.080 --> 01:01:22.609 in an academic context, it's very 1940 01:01:22.610 --> 01:01:24.439 easy to fall back into the 1941 01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:26.089 idea that, well, the humanities have 1942 01:01:26.090 --> 01:01:27.589 their proper place in the university 1943 01:01:27.590 --> 01:01:29.749 and are at home there and so forth. 1944 01:01:29.750 --> 01:01:31.759 When, in fact, we're a tiny part 1945 01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:33.869 of what the humanities are. 1946 01:01:33.870 --> 01:01:35.809 And I think that 1947 01:01:35.810 --> 01:01:36.810 that has to be 1948 01:01:37.640 --> 01:01:38.909 recognized and affirmed. 1949 01:01:38.910 --> 01:01:40.939 Also, we need to be building 1950 01:01:40.940 --> 01:01:42.589 as many bridges we can with 1951 01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:46.189 different kinds of groups. 1952 01:01:46.190 --> 01:01:48.079 And this goes back 1953 01:01:48.080 --> 01:01:49.219 to what I was saying at the outset 1954 01:01:49.220 --> 01:01:51.019 about the place of the academy in 1955 01:01:51.020 --> 01:01:51.869 the larger culture. 1956 01:01:51.870 --> 01:01:53.869 I'm really interested 1957 01:01:53.870 --> 01:01:55.759 in seeing the walls come down 1958 01:01:55.760 --> 01:01:57.829 in forms of cooperation, form 1959 01:01:57.830 --> 01:01:59.659 that are 1960 01:01:59.660 --> 01:02:01.999 not-- they're not contained, 1961 01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:03.589 but most importantly, not contained 1962 01:02:03.590 --> 01:02:05.359 by the disciplinary structures that 1963 01:02:05.360 --> 01:02:06.439 are at work in universities. 1964 01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:08.419 I haven't really talked about 1965 01:02:08.420 --> 01:02:09.499 that too much, but that's been one 1966 01:02:09.500 --> 01:02:11.569 of the key drivers 1967 01:02:11.570 --> 01:02:13.399 in my efforts at 1968 01:02:13.400 --> 01:02:14.809 institution building, the Center for 1969 01:02:14.810 --> 01:02:16.489 Modern Thought in Aberdeen, and then 1970 01:02:16.490 --> 01:02:17.490 what I've been doing with EGS. 1971 01:02:19.040 --> 01:02:21.409 I think it's critical 1972 01:02:21.410 --> 01:02:24.679 to break out of the disciplinary 1973 01:02:24.680 --> 01:02:26.539 hold of the 1974 01:02:26.540 --> 01:02:28.489 humanities or holds in rank 1975 01:02:28.490 --> 01:02:29.599 because there are different 1976 01:02:29.600 --> 01:02:30.979 disciplines involved. 1977 01:02:30.980 --> 01:02:32.224 And so that requires 1978 01:02:33.530 --> 01:02:36.159 for me the kinds of experimentation 1979 01:02:36.160 --> 01:02:37.568 that we're doing at EGS 1980 01:02:39.050 --> 01:02:40.789 and, at the same time, efforts to 1981 01:02:40.790 --> 01:02:41.790 reach out to other 1982 01:02:43.400 --> 01:02:46.159 initiatives that are 1983 01:02:46.160 --> 01:02:48.319 happening in North America 1984 01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:49.320 across 1985 01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:53.400 our culture. No, 1986 01:02:55.160 --> 01:02:56.899 I think the disciplines-- for the 1987 01:02:56.900 --> 01:02:58.069 question of humanities, the question 1988 01:02:58.070 --> 01:02:59.959 of disciplines is absolutely 1989 01:02:59.960 --> 01:03:02.329 critical. And this is not just 1990 01:03:02.330 --> 01:03:03.439 the disciplines of the humanities 1991 01:03:03.440 --> 01:03:04.549 but the way in which the humanities 1992 01:03:04.550 --> 01:03:05.929 are received in other disciplines. 1993 01:03:05.930 --> 01:03:07.879 So this issue 1994 01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:08.880 has to be 1995 01:03:09.770 --> 01:03:10.799 taken on, I think, quite 1996 01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:11.800 aggressively. 1997 01:03:13.040 --> 01:03:15.349 Otherwise, I 1998 01:03:15.350 --> 01:03:16.609 can't see much-- I can't see much 1999 01:03:16.610 --> 01:03:18.289 hope for the humanities, actually. 2000 01:03:18.290 --> 01:03:19.623 And I don't want to finish on that 2001 01:03:19.624 --> 01:03:20.624 note, but I 2002 01:03:23.570 --> 01:03:25.429 guess what I would want to stress 2003 01:03:25.430 --> 01:03:27.229 again is I just do not see the 2004 01:03:27.230 --> 01:03:28.429 Academy as the only place where the 2005 01:03:28.430 --> 01:03:29.430 humanities go. 2006 01:03:29.780 --> 01:03:30.780 But 2007 01:03:31.730 --> 01:03:33.229 at the same time, this goes back to 2008 01:03:33.230 --> 01:03:34.309 what I was saying about being a 2009 01:03:34.310 --> 01:03:36.289 local intellectual, I love the idea 2010 01:03:36.290 --> 01:03:37.669 of the university. I love working in 2011 01:03:37.670 --> 01:03:38.839 universities, and I think what we 2012 01:03:38.840 --> 01:03:40.759 need to do is transform them in such 2013 01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:41.768 a way as to open up to possibility. 2014 01:03:43.070 --> 01:03:44.149 Exactly. I mean, I think that the 2015 01:03:44.150 --> 01:03:45.619 kind of like-- on the one hand, the 2016 01:03:45.620 --> 01:03:46.759 kind of like looking at the 2017 01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:48.019 problems, you write about this too, 2018 01:03:48.020 --> 01:03:49.339 like the kind of the opportunities 2019 01:03:49.340 --> 01:03:51.769 and pride that we're a ways from 2020 01:03:51.770 --> 01:03:53.929 maybe capitalizing on the 2021 01:03:53.930 --> 01:03:55.069 opportunities that are there in 2022 01:03:55.070 --> 01:03:56.539 moments of crisis, but they exist. 2023 01:03:56.540 --> 01:03:57.540 And I think 2024 01:03:58.940 --> 01:04:00.679 on the one hand, yes, when we talk 2025 01:04:00.680 --> 01:04:02.320 about-- we've talked here about EGS 2026 01:04:02.321 --> 01:04:03.169 and all the things that you're doing 2027 01:04:03.170 --> 01:04:05.119 there, the background 2028 01:04:05.120 --> 01:04:06.949 is against a kind of system 2029 01:04:06.950 --> 01:04:08.599 that doesn't allow for the same 2030 01:04:08.600 --> 01:04:10.279 kinds of work and thought. 2031 01:04:10.280 --> 01:04:12.089 But there are opportunities. 2032 01:04:12.090 --> 01:04:13.069 They do exist. They haven't been 2033 01:04:13.070 --> 01:04:14.239 extinguished. You're doing something 2034 01:04:14.240 --> 01:04:16.219 with EGS, and the opportunities 2035 01:04:16.220 --> 01:04:18.019 that exist when those disciplinary 2036 01:04:18.020 --> 01:04:19.609 boundaries come down a bit are 2037 01:04:19.610 --> 01:04:21.169 substantial. And that's, I think, 2038 01:04:21.170 --> 01:04:22.819 one of the things that I appreciate 2039 01:04:22.820 --> 01:04:24.559 most about your work, learning about 2040 01:04:24.560 --> 01:04:25.549 your work as an administrator, but 2041 01:04:25.550 --> 01:04:26.869 also in your writing that's all over 2042 01:04:26.870 --> 01:04:28.549 it. And it's exciting to read. 2043 01:04:28.550 --> 01:04:29.149 Well, thank you. 2044 01:04:29.150 --> 01:04:30.649 Yeah. Well, thanks for being here, 2045 01:04:30.650 --> 01:04:30.678 Chris. 2046 01:04:30.679 --> 01:04:31.249 Thank you. 2047 01:04:31.250 --> 01:04:32.250 That's 2048 01:04:34.860 --> 01:04:36.479 it for this edition of Being Human. 2049 01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:37.649 This episode was produced by 2050 01:04:37.650 --> 01:04:39.119 Christian Snyder, Undergraduate 2051 01:04:39.120 --> 01:04:40.349 Humanities Media Fellow at the 2052 01:04:40.350 --> 01:04:41.849 University of Pittsburgh. 2053 01:04:41.850 --> 01:04:43.169 Stay tuned next time when my guest 2054 01:04:43.170 --> 01:04:44.669 will be Anne Knowles, a professor of 2055 01:04:44.670 --> 01:04:46.649 History at the University of Maine. 2056 01:04:46.650 --> 01:04:47.650 Thanks for listening.
Reddit
Twitter
Facebook