Writing, Healing, and the Rhythm of a Body: An Interview with Rafael Campo

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Hello and welcome to the latest

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installment of Being Human from the

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University of Pittsburgh.

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This series is devoted to exploring

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the humanities, their connections to

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other disciplines, and their value

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in the public world.

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I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of

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the Humanities Center at Pitt.

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My guest today is Rafael Campo,

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award-winning poet and professor of

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Medicine at Harvard University.

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Dr. Campo characterizes his medical

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training as devoted to scientific

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fact and to thinking of illness in

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purely physical terms.

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But for him, patients are more than

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collections of medical facts, and

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healing involves more than diagnoses

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and prescriptions.

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Poetry, he says, has helped, reminds

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him of this. In his essays

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and nonfiction, Dr. Campo makes a

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forceful argument for the value of

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poetry to medicine, drawing on his

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own experience to show how he has

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used poetry to not only understand

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his patients but also to provide

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better medical care.

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But he makes an even more forceful

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argument in his poems, which have

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now been collected in six books.

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In his poetry, Dr. Campo bears

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witness to the complexity of his own

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experience, including the joys and

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struggles of his sexuality, his

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confusion as an immigrant from Cuba,

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and even his doubts as a physician.

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Writing poetry, he says, has played

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an important role in his own quest

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for healing, a lesson he now tries

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to impart in weekly writing and

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reading workshops for medical

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students at Harvard.

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I began by asking Dr. Campo about

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the origins of his interests in

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medicine and poetry and how the

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relationship between the two has

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changed over time.

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I guess I would begin by saying that

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I was always drawn to the work of

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healing because of my

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experience as an

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immigrant in this country and

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feeling very acutely, growing

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up, a sense of fracture

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or a sense of rupture between

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my experience and

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this homeland that

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it turns out I have never been able

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to visit Cuba.

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And so I felt very

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early on in my

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imaginative life, in my intellectual

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life, that there was something about

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trying to repair that fracture,

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trying to heal that

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wound that, in some sense, could

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never be healed.

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That really drew me to the

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work that I do now.

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And so when I got to

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medical school, it was surprising

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to me how little

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those humanistic notions

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around healing were part of my

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training. I was

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really struck by how strictly

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biomedical the training I received

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was at that time.

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And so, yes, when

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I was writing more poetry

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in the wake of that experience as

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a medical student and then intern

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resident and now a physician,

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initially I did feel that there was

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a real separation

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between the humanistic,

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the humane, this notion

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of being a healer in a broad sense.

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Healing through language,

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through recounting of

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stories, through articulating

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pain, through language.

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And this notion of being

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a doctor with the white coat, which

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was this, in a way, a kind

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of--I came to view it as a kind of

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armor, a kind of shield that,

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in some sense, protected me from

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the indelicacies of human suffering.

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And that, in fact, what being a

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doctor was, I learned at Harvard

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Medical School, knowing

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pathophysiology and being able to

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recite 18 items on the differential

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diagnosis and

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being able to know what someone's

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potassium level was and how many

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lymph nodes were positive on the CT

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scan.

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That's what medicine

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was really about, I learned in

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medical school. And so there was

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a, I think, when I came

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to the page, a reluctance

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to reveal

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the medical world in which I found

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myself. Because I

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was learning at the time that the

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two were supposed to be

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separated. And we have an

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unfortunately, a tradition in

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medical education of teaching

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detached concern or distancing.

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That somehow,

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to be engaged with the human

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experience of our patients

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distracts us from

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the real work of

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intervening and treating that

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malignant arrhythmia with

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shock therapy and all the kinds of

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things that we do that

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are, of course, very important kinds

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of treatments and interventions.

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So, yes, I do feel like

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there was a real tension there as

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I went through my medical training.

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Ironically, what I learned

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really I would say, during my

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third year of medical school, when I

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had more time actually

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encountering patients, that

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in fact, what I was learning in

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medical school wasn't what

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was most important-- certainly very

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important. But I began

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to recognize that what

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was so central to the work of being

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a doctor was actually being

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present meaningfully

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at the experience of my patients

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suffering. And I remember getting

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feedback from attendings

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and my supervising

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residents that I tended to identify

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too strongly with my patients.

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That caring

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about them would cloud my judgment.

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That if I ever became a

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physician, it was going to be a real

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problem for me if I didn't learn how

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to develop a thicker skin

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and be more removed,

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be more distanced, be more detached.

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And I remember feeling that kind

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of feedback was just so damaging

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because I was really struggling with

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how could I be a really

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authentic and genuine witness

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to my patients suffering.

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And so turned out that

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narrative poetry

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was just that

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kind of opening,

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that kind of connection I was

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searching for because through poems,

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we can, I think, be present

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empathetically at another person's

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suffering. We can

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immerse ourselves in the voice of

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another consciousness.

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We can hear the metaphors that our

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patients use to describe

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these unspeakable

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circumstances in which they find

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themselves. The pain that we can't

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articulate somehow we can express

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through metaphor, even

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perhaps imperfectly at times.

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So there's a real irony in that

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because I did find that as

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I encountered patients, and I got

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out of textbooks

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and more into the clinics

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and into the hospitals, that indeed

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being a poet was, in some sense,

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actually better training

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for being a doctor.

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Yeah. Well, one thing you mentioned

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the kind of the interest in the

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people you were studying with when

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you were in medical school and kind

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of keeping that apart.

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Right? And not have it only focusing

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on, let's say, the biophysical

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aspects of being a doctor.

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And one of the things that I was

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surprised that in reading your work

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because you mentioned it-- you

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mentioned in other essays that you

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have actually encountered hostility

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when you present this idea at

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conferences and things like that.

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I was interested in the hostility.

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Where does it come from?

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What's your take on why

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that exists?

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It's not indifference, right?

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That I can understand.

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I mean, maybe there's some of that.

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There's some of that.

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There are some indifference.

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But there's actually a kind of a

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hostility to this being introduced

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to narrative and poetry being part

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of medical training and being a

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significant part of it.

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What are your thoughts on where that

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comes from?

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Yeah, that's a really interesting

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question. Also, I would say that

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some of it, I think, stems from,

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in medicine, we are

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trained to know

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everything that we can know.

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I mean, there's this sense of that

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science can explicate everything

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that there is to know about the

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human body.

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And when we're confronted with

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mystery, when we're confronted with

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the inexplicable, when we're

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confronted with the end of

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life, for example, when there isn't

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going to be another round of

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chemotherapy, there isn't going to

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be another surgery to perform

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where the patient's

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family is looking to us, where the

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patient is looking to us

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and searching for a different kind

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of intervention, a different kind

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of connection with us.

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I think we are fearful of that.

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We're trained so

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much to know, to

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do, to intervene, to treat.

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And especially, I would say,

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our formative years as students is

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very much, in

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some sense, almost a kind of

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punitive training where

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if you don't know the answer, you're

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humiliated publicly on rounds.

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So there is a real fear,

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I think, that comes out of not

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knowing all the answers.

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And so I

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think that's part of it.

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I think there's also,

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I think, something

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that has to do with a kind of hubris

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or arrogance, again, around

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the scientific enterprise.

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And

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we, I think, see this a little bit

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in the tension between-- even at

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universities, like this great

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university, where the humanities

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and the sciences somehow seem, in

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a way, adversaries or that

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these are sort of distinct ways of

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knowing about the world.

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And science really

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gets all the funding.

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00:08:55.690 --> 00:08:57.819
Science gets all the

289
00:08:57.820 --> 00:08:59.649
attention. Science gets all the

290
00:08:59.650 --> 00:09:01.659
reporting in the media.

291
00:09:01.660 --> 00:09:03.639
And so there's a sense

292
00:09:03.640 --> 00:09:04.640
of what

293
00:09:05.470 --> 00:09:06.690
does poetry have to do with this

294
00:09:08.830 --> 00:09:10.560
really important work of curing

295
00:09:11.620 --> 00:09:12.620
cancer. And

296
00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:16.089
that disconnect, I think, also

297
00:09:16.090 --> 00:09:17.183
informs it that poetry, that's

298
00:09:18.730 --> 00:09:19.730
for that

299
00:09:22.020 --> 00:09:23.219
sort of fluff.

300
00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:24.389
That's window dressing. We have one

301
00:09:24.390 --> 00:09:26.499
lecture a year on the humanities

302
00:09:26.500 --> 00:09:27.500
and medicine. And

303
00:09:28.350 --> 00:09:29.849
we pat ourselves on the back and

304
00:09:29.850 --> 00:09:31.619
pretend we're all caring,

305
00:09:31.620 --> 00:09:33.509
compassionate doctors.

306
00:09:33.510 --> 00:09:35.129
And that's not to say there aren't

307
00:09:35.130 --> 00:09:36.749
many, many caring, compassionate

308
00:09:36.750 --> 00:09:38.189
doctors. I don't mean to doctor bash

309
00:09:38.190 --> 00:09:40.019
at all, but I

310
00:09:40.020 --> 00:09:41.939
do think there is a sense of what

311
00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:43.709
really takes precedence in the work

312
00:09:43.710 --> 00:09:45.539
of medicine and the profession of

313
00:09:45.540 --> 00:09:47.399
medicine is science.

314
00:09:47.400 --> 00:09:48.400
And

315
00:09:50.100 --> 00:09:51.809
I think part of it has to do with,

316
00:09:51.810 --> 00:09:54.029
again, money that is

317
00:09:54.030 --> 00:09:55.079
directed towards these different

318
00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:57.209
kinds of modes

319
00:09:57.210 --> 00:09:58.210
of inquiry.

320
00:09:59.230 --> 00:10:01.289
Yeah. Well, I want to ask you about

321
00:10:01.290 --> 00:10:03.539
the contributions that

322
00:10:03.540 --> 00:10:05.399
writing poetry and reading

323
00:10:05.400 --> 00:10:07.379
poetry have made to your work

324
00:10:07.380 --> 00:10:08.729
as a doctor throughout your career.

325
00:10:08.730 --> 00:10:10.649
But I want to start by asking

326
00:10:10.650 --> 00:10:12.569
something that I was

327
00:10:12.570 --> 00:10:13.949
more surprised to hear about.

328
00:10:13.950 --> 00:10:15.089
And that is kind of how it works in

329
00:10:15.090 --> 00:10:16.169
the other direction, which is how

330
00:10:16.170 --> 00:10:17.699
your work as a doctor has

331
00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:19.709
contributed to and influenced

332
00:10:19.710 --> 00:10:20.609
your work as a poet.

333
00:10:20.610 --> 00:10:21.749
And you've written, or you've

334
00:10:21.750 --> 00:10:22.979
talked-- I think I saw an interview

335
00:10:22.980 --> 00:10:24.299
where you talk specifically about

336
00:10:24.300 --> 00:10:25.509
listening to a stethoscope.

337
00:10:25.510 --> 00:10:26.219
Yes, yes, yes.

338
00:10:26.220 --> 00:10:27.629
And the importance of that in

339
00:10:27.630 --> 00:10:28.709
writing poetry. Can you talk a

340
00:10:28.710 --> 00:10:29.999
little bit about that? It's particularly

341
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:31.469
rhythm, I think, that you were you

342
00:10:31.470 --> 00:10:33.029
were focusing on at that point.

343
00:10:33.030 --> 00:10:35.009
It's a very important part

344
00:10:35.010 --> 00:10:36.629
of poetry for you, is a rhythm of

345
00:10:36.630 --> 00:10:37.229
poetic language.

346
00:10:37.230 --> 00:10:38.729
Absolutely. That is a really

347
00:10:38.730 --> 00:10:39.929
important connection for me.

348
00:10:39.930 --> 00:10:41.849
I think that-- I spend most

349
00:10:41.850 --> 00:10:43.649
of my day listening to the heart

350
00:10:43.650 --> 00:10:44.939
through my stethoscope.

351
00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:46.829
And so the innate rhythms

352
00:10:46.830 --> 00:10:49.139
of the body really do find

353
00:10:49.140 --> 00:10:50.279
their way into my poems.

354
00:10:50.280 --> 00:10:52.679
I'm very interested in formal

355
00:10:52.680 --> 00:10:54.929
structures, in poetry, metrical

356
00:10:54.930 --> 00:10:57.209
figures, iambic

357
00:10:57.210 --> 00:10:58.859
meters, in particular.

358
00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:01.139
And my ear is just

359
00:11:01.140 --> 00:11:03.029
always trained to

360
00:11:03.030 --> 00:11:04.409
those innate rhythms of our body.

361
00:11:04.410 --> 00:11:06.239
And so that's one way I

362
00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.369
feel very much this physical

363
00:11:08.370 --> 00:11:10.739
connection between the work I do

364
00:11:10.740 --> 00:11:12.569
as a physician and

365
00:11:12.570 --> 00:11:14.489
the poem, which is,

366
00:11:14.490 --> 00:11:17.129
I think, of all the modes of writing

367
00:11:17.130 --> 00:11:18.959
I love, I

368
00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:21.239
think is the most physically

369
00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:22.979
embodied in many respects.

370
00:11:22.980 --> 00:11:24.209
And so there's that.

371
00:11:24.210 --> 00:11:26.069
I would say also there's

372
00:11:26.070 --> 00:11:28.109
also this notion of listening to

373
00:11:28.110 --> 00:11:29.610
the stories of my patients and

374
00:11:31.020 --> 00:11:32.819
being present as someone struggles

375
00:11:32.820 --> 00:11:34.799
to describe

376
00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:36.720
pain or struggles to describe

377
00:11:37.920 --> 00:11:38.920
depression.

378
00:11:39.540 --> 00:11:41.879
The sense of language as

379
00:11:41.880 --> 00:11:42.880
an inadequate and

380
00:11:44.310 --> 00:11:45.899
yet, at the same time, the only

381
00:11:45.900 --> 00:11:47.909
container we have for these

382
00:11:47.910 --> 00:11:50.219
very, very difficult

383
00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:52.709
emotions. And so I love

384
00:11:52.710 --> 00:11:54.809
how poems allow

385
00:11:54.810 --> 00:11:56.789
us to feel

386
00:11:56.790 --> 00:11:57.790
those kinds of tensions much

387
00:11:59.550 --> 00:12:00.989
more so than other modes of writing,

388
00:12:00.990 --> 00:12:01.889
I think.

389
00:12:01.890 --> 00:12:03.539
There is this sense of the container

390
00:12:03.540 --> 00:12:05.909
of the poem. There is the structures

391
00:12:05.910 --> 00:12:07.949
against which the poet

392
00:12:07.950 --> 00:12:10.799
is exerting to

393
00:12:10.800 --> 00:12:12.659
create the voice of the speaker in

394
00:12:12.660 --> 00:12:13.660
the poem. So

395
00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.129
there's that kind of

396
00:12:17.130 --> 00:12:19.199
tension as well that I think,

397
00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:21.149
in some ways, is particular

398
00:12:21.150 --> 00:12:22.679
to poetry.

399
00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:24.239
And then, I guess, I might say also

400
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.069
that in a kind of a

401
00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:28.019
even larger sense that

402
00:12:28.020 --> 00:12:29.939
I find that in my work as

403
00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:30.940
a doctor, that

404
00:12:31.980 --> 00:12:34.079
presenting narratives, presenting

405
00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.119
stories of people who have actually

406
00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:38.549
lived the experience of illness can

407
00:12:38.550 --> 00:12:40.319
make for change.

408
00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:41.320
Many

409
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.029
have reflected on

410
00:12:45.030 --> 00:12:46.989
art's and poetry's inability to

411
00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:50.159
change the world.

412
00:12:50.160 --> 00:12:52.259
And I find that in

413
00:12:52.260 --> 00:12:54.269
medicine, there is nothing more

414
00:12:54.270 --> 00:12:56.669
compelling to certainly my students,

415
00:12:56.670 --> 00:12:58.439
my residents, even many of my

416
00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:00.329
colleagues than to hear the

417
00:13:00.330 --> 00:13:02.729
story of someone's experience

418
00:13:02.730 --> 00:13:05.219
of an illness that was

419
00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:07.199
impacted by

420
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.089
an aspect of his or

421
00:13:09.090 --> 00:13:11.819
her identity or a sense of

422
00:13:11.820 --> 00:13:13.769
because I am in some

423
00:13:13.770 --> 00:13:15.389
sense different, I couldn't access

424
00:13:15.390 --> 00:13:16.499
this treatment, or I couldn't find

425
00:13:16.500 --> 00:13:18.299
my way to the neurology clinic

426
00:13:18.300 --> 00:13:20.009
because all the signs are in English

427
00:13:20.010 --> 00:13:21.809
and I only speak Spanish.

428
00:13:21.810 --> 00:13:24.059
These stories of what

429
00:13:24.060 --> 00:13:26.130
it means to live with an illness

430
00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:30.689
can really, I think, illuminate

431
00:13:30.690 --> 00:13:31.859
some of the health disparities that

432
00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:32.860
are still plaguing

433
00:13:34.050 --> 00:13:35.039
our country.

434
00:13:35.040 --> 00:13:36.959
And so I think also

435
00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:37.960
in that sense,

436
00:13:39.270 --> 00:13:41.309
poetry writing

437
00:13:41.310 --> 00:13:43.199
can animate

438
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.209
the experience of illness

439
00:13:45.210 --> 00:13:47.519
for diverse people in a way that

440
00:13:47.520 --> 00:13:49.469
can make all of us

441
00:13:49.470 --> 00:13:50.579
understand better what that

442
00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:52.709
experience is.

443
00:13:52.710 --> 00:13:54.869
Yeah. And I wonder, too, to

444
00:13:54.870 --> 00:13:56.669
think about your work as a poet for

445
00:13:56.670 --> 00:13:57.719
a moment more.

446
00:13:57.720 --> 00:13:59.879
You've written about poetry

447
00:13:59.880 --> 00:14:01.829
and kind of the detachment

448
00:14:01.830 --> 00:14:03.329
that you see in kind of experimental

449
00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:04.889
poetry and abstract poetry.

450
00:14:04.890 --> 00:14:05.969
And it struck me in thinking about

451
00:14:05.970 --> 00:14:07.649
and listening to you now talk about

452
00:14:07.650 --> 00:14:09.779
bodily rhythms that actually,

453
00:14:09.780 --> 00:14:11.579
in terms of the kinds of poetry that

454
00:14:11.580 --> 00:14:13.207
you produce, your work as a doctor

455
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:17.249
keeps a physical presence in your

456
00:14:17.250 --> 00:14:18.119
poems.

457
00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.229
That kind of works against what you

458
00:14:20.230 --> 00:14:21.849
see as a kind of like a certain

459
00:14:21.850 --> 00:14:23.979
trend in contemporary poetry

460
00:14:23.980 --> 00:14:25.359
of being abstract and experimental

461
00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:27.489
and less available for a wider

462
00:14:27.490 --> 00:14:28.059
public.

463
00:14:28.060 --> 00:14:29.079
Yes. Yes.

464
00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:30.999
I have, in some

465
00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:32.289
sense, I think evolved a little bit

466
00:14:32.290 --> 00:14:33.290
on

467
00:14:34.750 --> 00:14:35.769
that particular theme.

468
00:14:35.770 --> 00:14:37.719
But I do find that my

469
00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:40.089
own attraction

470
00:14:40.090 --> 00:14:42.429
to the poem, really, is through

471
00:14:42.430 --> 00:14:44.199
the more physically embodied

472
00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:45.200
rhythms, again,

473
00:14:46.030 --> 00:14:48.159
the notion of

474
00:14:48.160 --> 00:14:49.989
a poetry that is, in some

475
00:14:49.990 --> 00:14:51.009
sense, visceral, that

476
00:14:52.330 --> 00:14:54.549
enters us through physical

477
00:14:54.550 --> 00:14:56.259
channels as well as through our

478
00:14:56.260 --> 00:14:57.309
mental faculties.

479
00:14:57.310 --> 00:14:58.749
And again, that's very much the

480
00:14:58.750 --> 00:14:59.750
experience I have of-- I

481
00:15:00.760 --> 00:15:02.319
was just talking over lunch - this

482
00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:03.309
is going to sound weird. Only a

483
00:15:03.310 --> 00:15:04.500
doctor poet would say this, I guess

484
00:15:04.501 --> 00:15:06.609
- but percussing the liver

485
00:15:06.610 --> 00:15:08.469
and hearing

486
00:15:08.470 --> 00:15:10.629
the difference between

487
00:15:10.630 --> 00:15:13.149
the resonance of the chest cavity

488
00:15:13.150 --> 00:15:15.369
and the dullness of this

489
00:15:15.370 --> 00:15:16.149
internal organ.

490
00:15:16.150 --> 00:15:17.339
And so yeah.

491
00:15:17.340 --> 00:15:19.239
So those are not

492
00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:21.159
abstract notions, in my

493
00:15:21.160 --> 00:15:23.469
experience. Those are real

494
00:15:23.470 --> 00:15:25.599
expressions of our bodies

495
00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.459
and how we perceive, also how we

496
00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:29.349
can sound out, how we can

497
00:15:29.350 --> 00:15:30.879
suss out the body.

498
00:15:30.880 --> 00:15:32.799
And so that's, again, a maybe

499
00:15:32.800 --> 00:15:34.299
more a particular fascination of

500
00:15:34.300 --> 00:15:36.369
mine than a kind of a critique of

501
00:15:36.370 --> 00:15:38.319
the other kinds of poetry that are

502
00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:39.609
out there and that are, I think,

503
00:15:39.610 --> 00:15:41.439
interesting for other kinds of

504
00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:41.835
reasons.

505
00:15:41.836 --> 00:15:43.719
This kind

506
00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:44.919
of line of thinking about your work

507
00:15:44.920 --> 00:15:46.869
also reminds me of William Carlos

508
00:15:46.870 --> 00:15:48.939
Williams, who it's hard not to

509
00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:50.889
think of you in dialogue with

510
00:15:50.890 --> 00:15:53.109
because of your histories as doctor

511
00:15:53.110 --> 00:15:54.669
poets from New Jersey. But also

512
00:15:54.670 --> 00:15:56.619
because of a focus on we think

513
00:15:56.620 --> 00:15:58.329
of Williams, and we think of No

514
00:15:58.330 --> 00:16:00.309
Ideas But in Things and a focus

515
00:16:00.310 --> 00:16:01.569
on that. And some of the ways that

516
00:16:01.570 --> 00:16:03.699
you've written about illness brings

517
00:16:03.700 --> 00:16:05.649
us always back to things, right?

518
00:16:05.650 --> 00:16:08.229
Thinking about illness as urine

519
00:16:08.230 --> 00:16:09.219
that you need to dispose of,

520
00:16:09.220 --> 00:16:10.659
thinking of illness as blood that's

521
00:16:10.660 --> 00:16:12.069
escaping from a wound, and things

522
00:16:12.070 --> 00:16:13.569
like that. And you write about

523
00:16:13.570 --> 00:16:14.769
Williams and your relationship to

524
00:16:14.770 --> 00:16:16.569
him in The Healing Art.

525
00:16:16.570 --> 00:16:18.459
Can you say a little bit about what

526
00:16:18.460 --> 00:16:20.379
he's meant to you as someone you've

527
00:16:20.380 --> 00:16:21.249
read?

528
00:16:21.250 --> 00:16:22.509
Oh my gosh, well, where could I

529
00:16:22.510 --> 00:16:23.559
begin? I mean, he's one of my

530
00:16:23.560 --> 00:16:25.479
heroes. And as you say, he was

531
00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:27.309
a primary care doctor, what we

532
00:16:27.310 --> 00:16:28.155
would call a primary care doctor

533
00:16:28.156 --> 00:16:30.009
now, in an

534
00:16:30.010 --> 00:16:32.109
impoverished part of New Jersey,

535
00:16:32.110 --> 00:16:33.069
not far from where I grew up,

536
00:16:33.070 --> 00:16:35.139
actually. And so, yes,

537
00:16:35.140 --> 00:16:37.299
he's always been this really

538
00:16:37.300 --> 00:16:39.399
hero figure for me in many ways.

539
00:16:39.400 --> 00:16:41.259
And his effort

540
00:16:41.260 --> 00:16:43.719
to, I think, express

541
00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:45.729
what he saw in his day-to-day

542
00:16:45.730 --> 00:16:47.889
work as a physician,

543
00:16:47.890 --> 00:16:49.359
this notion of a kind of a

544
00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:50.772
democratic idiom, this notion

545
00:16:51.790 --> 00:16:53.979
of the disturbed body, the

546
00:16:53.980 --> 00:16:55.929
ill body

547
00:16:55.930 --> 00:16:57.789
as one to

548
00:16:57.790 --> 00:16:59.769
which applies

549
00:16:59.770 --> 00:17:01.749
to all of us, really, that someday

550
00:17:01.750 --> 00:17:03.189
we're all going to be patients.

551
00:17:03.190 --> 00:17:05.078
Every single one of us is going

552
00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:06.309
to be in that hospital bed one of

553
00:17:06.310 --> 00:17:07.310
these days. And so

554
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.269
I think one of

555
00:17:10.270 --> 00:17:13.118
the impulses behind his

556
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:14.318
project, which really, I think,

557
00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:16.149
transformed American poetry

558
00:17:16.150 --> 00:17:17.828
in such important ways, was this

559
00:17:17.829 --> 00:17:19.838
sense of we share

560
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:21.818
an idiom that's based in

561
00:17:21.819 --> 00:17:23.559
our bodies. But that's also an

562
00:17:23.560 --> 00:17:25.868
expression of our sensuality,

563
00:17:25.869 --> 00:17:26.869
our physicality,

564
00:17:27.849 --> 00:17:29.979
as well as our shared experience

565
00:17:29.980 --> 00:17:32.469
as Americans. And Americans

566
00:17:32.470 --> 00:17:35.109
in that very plural

567
00:17:35.110 --> 00:17:37.059
sense of he was taking care

568
00:17:37.060 --> 00:17:38.469
of immigrants. He was taking care of

569
00:17:38.470 --> 00:17:40.479
the poor. He was taking care of

570
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:42.639
anybody who walked through his door.

571
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:43.640
And so

572
00:17:45.010 --> 00:17:46.479
there's something really, again,

573
00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:48.639
heroic, I think, in his joining

574
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:50.769
of these two

575
00:17:50.770 --> 00:17:51.770
vocations, I would say and

576
00:17:53.590 --> 00:17:55.719
has really served as just

577
00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:57.609
an inspiration to my

578
00:17:57.610 --> 00:17:59.439
own work. And so I

579
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.299
think, yes, that indeed there is

580
00:18:01.300 --> 00:18:03.879
this way in which Williams

581
00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:06.489
and his work reflect how

582
00:18:06.490 --> 00:18:09.069
stories, language

583
00:18:09.070 --> 00:18:11.379
emanates from

584
00:18:11.380 --> 00:18:13.269
us in a way that is

585
00:18:13.270 --> 00:18:15.369
truly universal

586
00:18:15.370 --> 00:18:17.259
and again,

587
00:18:17.260 --> 00:18:19.659
anti-elitist, anti

588
00:18:19.660 --> 00:18:21.759
this sort of poetic

589
00:18:21.760 --> 00:18:23.229
sort of jargon.

590
00:18:23.230 --> 00:18:24.609
Sometimes I have colleagues who say,

591
00:18:24.610 --> 00:18:26.109
"Oh, poetry," it's especially,

592
00:18:26.110 --> 00:18:27.999
again, in medicine, "that's all

593
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:29.169
code language, and I can't

594
00:18:29.170 --> 00:18:31.179
understand it." And it's like,

595
00:18:31.180 --> 00:18:32.679
why don't you just say it?

596
00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:34.399
But that's what Williams did.

597
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:36.279
He did say it. He was trying

598
00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:38.169
to say it. And again, this

599
00:18:38.170 --> 00:18:40.029
just incredible

600
00:18:40.030 --> 00:18:42.399
American idiom that

601
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:43.719
everybody could understand.

602
00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:45.189
And that was accessible to all of

603
00:18:45.190 --> 00:18:47.169
us, not in the sort of elitist

604
00:18:48.340 --> 00:18:49.340
language of what

605
00:18:50.590 --> 00:18:52.089
came from Europe, shall we say.

606
00:18:52.090 --> 00:18:54.009
So that's part of

607
00:18:54.010 --> 00:18:55.010
my obsession, fascination

608
00:18:57.250 --> 00:18:58.689
with Williams.

609
00:18:58.690 --> 00:18:59.709
Maybe I said too much about that.

610
00:18:59.710 --> 00:19:00.279
I'm sorry.

611
00:19:00.280 --> 00:19:01.809
No, not at all. I mean, I'm

612
00:19:01.810 --> 00:19:02.979
interested in asking one further

613
00:19:02.980 --> 00:19:04.029
question about that, because he--

614
00:19:04.030 --> 00:19:05.019
and you mentioned this a few times

615
00:19:05.020 --> 00:19:06.309
in your response. I mean, he

616
00:19:06.310 --> 00:19:07.689
certainly saw his project as an

617
00:19:07.690 --> 00:19:09.309
American one. And he was responding

618
00:19:09.310 --> 00:19:10.179
to T.S.

619
00:19:10.180 --> 00:19:11.319
Eliot. He was responding to Ezra

620
00:19:11.320 --> 00:19:12.459
Pound.

621
00:19:12.460 --> 00:19:13.369
I mean, you were saying coming through,

622
00:19:13.370 --> 00:19:14.859
these are Americans who went to

623
00:19:14.860 --> 00:19:15.909
Europe. People he knew.

624
00:19:15.910 --> 00:19:17.919
He knew Pound when he was at

625
00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:18.939
the University of Pennsylvania.

626
00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:20.089
And you mention a few times there

627
00:19:20.090 --> 00:19:22.159
being an Americaness to his project.

628
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:23.419
Do you see your project in that way

629
00:19:23.420 --> 00:19:25.159
as being American poetry?

630
00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.919
I hope so. I mean, I feel like I am

631
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:29.389
maybe perhaps a little bit different

632
00:19:29.390 --> 00:19:30.379
from Williams, although he had

633
00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:31.729
Puerto Rican roots.

634
00:19:31.730 --> 00:19:33.679
But I see myself

635
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:35.809
as almost

636
00:19:35.810 --> 00:19:37.579
as perhaps one of the kinds of

637
00:19:37.580 --> 00:19:40.069
patients he treated

638
00:19:40.070 --> 00:19:41.719
being an immigrant or from an

639
00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:43.549
immigrant family to this country.

640
00:19:43.550 --> 00:19:45.589
And so, yes, I

641
00:19:45.590 --> 00:19:47.689
see America as this

642
00:19:47.690 --> 00:19:48.690
plurality of voices as

643
00:19:50.330 --> 00:19:52.279
a nation of immigrants, as a place

644
00:19:52.280 --> 00:19:54.349
where the American

645
00:19:54.350 --> 00:19:56.329
dream inspires so many people

646
00:19:56.330 --> 00:19:57.359
to come to

647
00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:01.009
seek education, to seek opportunity.

648
00:20:01.010 --> 00:20:02.899
And so, yes, I

649
00:20:02.900 --> 00:20:04.849
do think that my own work, and I

650
00:20:04.850 --> 00:20:07.129
hope, in some sense, my life

651
00:20:07.130 --> 00:20:08.879
is really an expression of that,

652
00:20:10.040 --> 00:20:12.229
I think, fundamentally

653
00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:14.089
American idea,

654
00:20:14.090 --> 00:20:16.099
which I know

655
00:20:16.100 --> 00:20:17.749
drew my parents here.

656
00:20:17.750 --> 00:20:19.759
And I hope I'm, in some sense,

657
00:20:19.760 --> 00:20:21.979
a kind of a product of their

658
00:20:21.980 --> 00:20:23.110
optimism, of their dreams.

659
00:20:25.010 --> 00:20:26.071
They came here with nothing and

660
00:20:26.072 --> 00:20:28.189
taught us,

661
00:20:28.190 --> 00:20:29.629
all of us, my brothers and my

662
00:20:29.630 --> 00:20:31.339
sister, the importance of an

663
00:20:31.340 --> 00:20:32.479
education, the importance of

664
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:34.579
service, the importance of giving

665
00:20:34.580 --> 00:20:36.679
back to a society that had given

666
00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:37.969
them so much. And so

667
00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:41.209
I think, yes, that's distinctly

668
00:20:41.210 --> 00:20:43.099
American. And I see

669
00:20:43.100 --> 00:20:45.829
America every day in my practice.

670
00:20:45.830 --> 00:20:47.779
My patients are all

671
00:20:47.780 --> 00:20:50.119
of us in every sense of

672
00:20:50.120 --> 00:20:52.069
that diversity,

673
00:20:52.070 --> 00:20:54.079
which I guess, in some ways, now has

674
00:20:54.080 --> 00:20:56.089
almost a

675
00:20:56.090 --> 00:20:59.209
kind of, I don't know, shorthand

676
00:20:59.210 --> 00:21:01.159
meaning now. But I

677
00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:02.839
experience that every day in my

678
00:21:02.840 --> 00:21:04.879
clinic. And it's just

679
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:06.919
absolutely beautiful

680
00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:08.989
and astonishing, and

681
00:21:08.990 --> 00:21:10.339
I think really exists

682
00:21:11.750 --> 00:21:13.879
only in a country like this.

683
00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:14.989
Well, I want to ask a little bit

684
00:21:14.990 --> 00:21:16.939
about contributions that you feel

685
00:21:16.940 --> 00:21:18.049
that poetry has made to your

686
00:21:18.050 --> 00:21:19.639
practice as a doctor and as a

687
00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:20.539
physician.

688
00:21:20.540 --> 00:21:22.489
And I want to ask to try to be as

689
00:21:22.490 --> 00:21:23.689
specific as possible.

690
00:21:23.690 --> 00:21:25.519
In the beginning of The Healing Art,

691
00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:27.409
there is a really-- this

692
00:21:27.410 --> 00:21:28.290
is your second book of prose.

693
00:21:28.291 --> 00:21:30.289
And there's a really powerful

694
00:21:30.290 --> 00:21:32.149
example of a patient that you

695
00:21:32.150 --> 00:21:33.289
called Daniel in the beginning.

696
00:21:33.290 --> 00:21:35.479
And you talk about the fact that his

697
00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:37.519
symptoms of depression had not

698
00:21:37.520 --> 00:21:39.409
responded to treatment, a variety of

699
00:21:39.410 --> 00:21:41.179
different treatments, and that it

700
00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:43.099
was only after you

701
00:21:43.100 --> 00:21:45.019
learned that he had been abused

702
00:21:45.020 --> 00:21:47.629
in a church as a child

703
00:21:47.630 --> 00:21:49.039
that you were able to intervene more

704
00:21:49.040 --> 00:21:49.879
effectively.

705
00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:51.439
And I want to be as clear as

706
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:53.269
possible in saying that the way

707
00:21:53.270 --> 00:21:55.249
that it's not that

708
00:21:55.250 --> 00:21:57.079
you learned the fact of his being

709
00:21:57.080 --> 00:21:58.159
abused. It's that you read his

710
00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:00.019
poetry. And you say very

711
00:22:00.020 --> 00:22:02.269
specifically you experienced

712
00:22:02.270 --> 00:22:04.919
the shame of the speaker that

713
00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:06.409
these events inspired.

714
00:22:06.410 --> 00:22:08.209
You experienced the violence of the

715
00:22:08.210 --> 00:22:09.739
events. And it's specifically the

716
00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:11.059
encounter with the poetry, not

717
00:22:11.060 --> 00:22:12.919
learning a fact on a

718
00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:14.524
bullet point or something like that

719
00:22:14.525 --> 00:22:16.369
but reading the poetry itself, that

720
00:22:16.370 --> 00:22:17.539
allows you to intervene more

721
00:22:17.540 --> 00:22:18.589
effectively.

722
00:22:18.590 --> 00:22:19.519
And I wonder if you could say a

723
00:22:19.520 --> 00:22:21.229
little bit about how that

724
00:22:21.230 --> 00:22:22.159
experience.

725
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.109
What it let you do

726
00:22:24.110 --> 00:22:25.159
that you wouldn't have been able to

727
00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:26.899
do otherwise, and why that was more

728
00:22:26.900 --> 00:22:28.429
effective in that case?

729
00:22:28.430 --> 00:22:29.779
Yeah. So those are also great

730
00:22:29.780 --> 00:22:31.759
questions. I would say, in a number

731
00:22:31.760 --> 00:22:33.169
of ways-- I think, in that

732
00:22:33.170 --> 00:22:34.759
particular case, because there are

733
00:22:34.760 --> 00:22:36.589
so many silences

734
00:22:36.590 --> 00:22:38.779
around abuse for

735
00:22:38.780 --> 00:22:40.549
many people who have experienced

736
00:22:40.550 --> 00:22:42.559
abuse, that the

737
00:22:42.560 --> 00:22:44.509
poetry that he wrote and the poems

738
00:22:44.510 --> 00:22:46.699
he shared with me allowed

739
00:22:46.700 --> 00:22:49.459
a kind of connection around

740
00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:51.679
that experience that I don't think

741
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.279
would have been possible through the

742
00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:55.220
standard sort of medical interview.

743
00:22:56.300 --> 00:22:58.039
It seemed to me at the time that he

744
00:22:58.040 --> 00:22:59.569
could only express what had happened

745
00:22:59.570 --> 00:23:01.729
to him through that particular

746
00:23:01.730 --> 00:23:02.770
medium. And so, in

747
00:23:03.860 --> 00:23:06.919
a very real sense, it opened up

748
00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:08.929
an opportunity, in a way,

749
00:23:08.930 --> 00:23:11.119
to offer support,

750
00:23:11.120 --> 00:23:13.069
resources, treatment

751
00:23:13.070 --> 00:23:14.989
that I might not never have even

752
00:23:14.990 --> 00:23:16.969
known about that he needed.

753
00:23:16.970 --> 00:23:18.829
And so in that

754
00:23:18.830 --> 00:23:21.079
very, I think, practical

755
00:23:21.080 --> 00:23:23.029
sense. But also,

756
00:23:23.030 --> 00:23:24.919
I think, and this is maybe

757
00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:26.809
perhaps a more sort of aesthetic or

758
00:23:26.810 --> 00:23:28.699
maybe even sort of philosophical

759
00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:30.739
notion. But I think poetry really

760
00:23:30.740 --> 00:23:32.749
does allow us to speak

761
00:23:32.750 --> 00:23:33.679
the unspeakable.

762
00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:36.589
It is a container

763
00:23:36.590 --> 00:23:37.590
of

764
00:23:38.420 --> 00:23:40.269
the most difficult kinds of emotions

765
00:23:40.270 --> 00:23:42.109
I think that we

766
00:23:42.110 --> 00:23:43.609
can feel. And whether they're

767
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:46.879
shame, pain,

768
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:48.739
the kinds of suffering

769
00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:50.659
that often attend the

770
00:23:50.660 --> 00:23:51.889
experience of illness, or whether

771
00:23:51.890 --> 00:23:53.659
they're also ecstatic experiences,

772
00:23:53.660 --> 00:23:55.759
whether they're experiences of

773
00:23:55.760 --> 00:23:57.019
unspeakable joy.

774
00:23:57.020 --> 00:23:59.539
This is why we

775
00:23:59.540 --> 00:24:00.540
turn to

776
00:24:01.490 --> 00:24:03.409
not only poetry but to

777
00:24:03.410 --> 00:24:05.539
music, to art.

778
00:24:05.540 --> 00:24:07.459
These are ways in which we can

779
00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:09.619
express these experiences

780
00:24:09.620 --> 00:24:10.620
that,

781
00:24:11.510 --> 00:24:13.939
again, I find are

782
00:24:13.940 --> 00:24:15.569
physically engaging.

783
00:24:15.570 --> 00:24:17.419
The way that the hair on the back of

784
00:24:17.420 --> 00:24:19.249
our necks stands up when we when

785
00:24:19.250 --> 00:24:21.499
we see an image that, again,

786
00:24:21.500 --> 00:24:23.359
we can't articulate

787
00:24:23.360 --> 00:24:24.360
exactly

788
00:24:25.190 --> 00:24:27.169
what it says to us or how it speaks

789
00:24:27.170 --> 00:24:29.479
to us. But yet, we are moved

790
00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:31.369
in a way that, again, allowed me to

791
00:24:31.370 --> 00:24:33.349
be much more present

792
00:24:33.350 --> 00:24:35.539
in Daniel's particular

793
00:24:35.540 --> 00:24:37.459
case than

794
00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:39.559
had I been in my

795
00:24:39.560 --> 00:24:41.480
more sort of standard

796
00:24:42.800 --> 00:24:44.659
position of the doctor in the white

797
00:24:44.660 --> 00:24:46.112
coat with my detached concern and

798
00:24:47.780 --> 00:24:49.789
perhaps more objectively

799
00:24:49.790 --> 00:24:51.199
interviewing him and seeking

800
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:53.179
information about what was

801
00:24:53.180 --> 00:24:55.969
going on in terms of symptoms and

802
00:24:55.970 --> 00:24:57.739
pain on the 1 to 10 scale that we

803
00:24:57.740 --> 00:24:58.740
use. And there

804
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.199
was this opportunity--

805
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:04.200
more than an opportunity, this demand

806
00:25:05.690 --> 00:25:07.849
that I

807
00:25:07.850 --> 00:25:09.214
engage with him, that I

808
00:25:10.460 --> 00:25:11.809
connect empathetically with him.

809
00:25:11.810 --> 00:25:13.669
And there has been much written

810
00:25:13.670 --> 00:25:16.069
about the healing

811
00:25:16.070 --> 00:25:18.259
possibilities of empathy in the

812
00:25:18.260 --> 00:25:20.599
psychiatric and mental health

813
00:25:20.600 --> 00:25:22.579
literature. But I think there really

814
00:25:22.580 --> 00:25:24.569
is, again, perhaps

815
00:25:24.570 --> 00:25:25.909
this getting back to a more

816
00:25:25.910 --> 00:25:27.739
practical way

817
00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:29.239
of thinking about it. But indeed, I

818
00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:31.309
think empathy does allow

819
00:25:31.310 --> 00:25:34.009
us to form

820
00:25:34.010 --> 00:25:35.869
healing connections with

821
00:25:35.870 --> 00:25:38.419
our patients that are part of

822
00:25:38.420 --> 00:25:39.420
the therapeutic

823
00:25:40.610 --> 00:25:41.766
intervention, if you will, that's

824
00:25:41.767 --> 00:25:43.789
simply listening.

825
00:25:43.790 --> 00:25:45.409
And there are even studies from the

826
00:25:45.410 --> 00:25:46.550
primary care setting that

827
00:25:47.630 --> 00:25:49.609
doctors who spend more time

828
00:25:49.610 --> 00:25:51.469
listening to their patients

829
00:25:51.470 --> 00:25:53.569
are not only

830
00:25:53.570 --> 00:25:55.279
rated more highly by their patients

831
00:25:55.280 --> 00:25:56.599
in terms of the quality of care that

832
00:25:56.600 --> 00:25:58.519
the patients receive but

833
00:25:58.520 --> 00:25:59.783
also the outcomes of the patients--

834
00:25:59.784 --> 00:26:00.784
better

835
00:26:02.060 --> 00:26:03.649
outcomes in terms of blood pressure,

836
00:26:03.650 --> 00:26:04.650
in terms of

837
00:26:05.840 --> 00:26:07.759
what endpoints

838
00:26:07.760 --> 00:26:09.979
we can more or less objectively

839
00:26:09.980 --> 00:26:11.929
measure. Not that

840
00:26:11.930 --> 00:26:13.639
I think all of this should be

841
00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:15.529
quantitatively

842
00:26:15.530 --> 00:26:16.530
assessed, but

843
00:26:17.450 --> 00:26:18.979
the poet in me bristles a little in

844
00:26:18.980 --> 00:26:19.980
trying to say this

845
00:26:21.050 --> 00:26:21.289
but--

846
00:26:21.290 --> 00:26:22.729
It's one benefit, but it doesn't

847
00:26:22.730 --> 00:26:23.269
have to be the only one.

848
00:26:23.270 --> 00:26:24.199
It's not the only one.

849
00:26:24.200 --> 00:26:26.149
It's one benefit that we can

850
00:26:26.150 --> 00:26:28.009
measure. And it is actually

851
00:26:28.010 --> 00:26:29.929
useful to speak to

852
00:26:29.930 --> 00:26:31.274
my medical colleagues in that in

853
00:26:32.840 --> 00:26:34.669
their language of randomized

854
00:26:34.670 --> 00:26:36.589
controlled trials or

855
00:26:36.590 --> 00:26:39.349
that kind of data. But, yes, there's

856
00:26:39.350 --> 00:26:41.659
much, much data to

857
00:26:41.660 --> 00:26:43.909
suggest that the empathetic

858
00:26:43.910 --> 00:26:45.349
relationship, the therapeutic

859
00:26:45.350 --> 00:26:47.449
alliance itself, is

860
00:26:47.450 --> 00:26:48.619
healing for patients.

861
00:26:48.620 --> 00:26:50.959
So, yes, I think that transformed

862
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:52.549
the care that I was able to provide

863
00:26:52.550 --> 00:26:54.589
Daniel. And, in some sense,

864
00:26:54.590 --> 00:26:56.629
he wrote to me some years ago

865
00:26:56.630 --> 00:26:58.489
after we

866
00:26:59.660 --> 00:27:01.609
worked together. He moved

867
00:27:01.610 --> 00:27:03.169
to another city. But he wrote to me,

868
00:27:03.170 --> 00:27:04.579
and he said to me later that, "I

869
00:27:04.580 --> 00:27:06.949
think being able to engage with you

870
00:27:06.950 --> 00:27:08.719
through my poems really saved my

871
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:10.999
life." And it was an extraordinary

872
00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:12.889
thing to hear so many years later

873
00:27:12.890 --> 00:27:14.839
from someone

874
00:27:14.840 --> 00:27:17.239
who was very troubled at that time.

875
00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:19.819
In that case, it was only after

876
00:27:19.820 --> 00:27:21.649
a long relationship

877
00:27:21.650 --> 00:27:23.638
with him that he gave you the poems.

878
00:27:25.430 --> 00:27:27.139
I mean, that particular example is

879
00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:28.279
one where it took a long time.

880
00:27:28.280 --> 00:27:29.419
And it took, I think, if I remember

881
00:27:29.420 --> 00:27:30.799
correctly, a suicide attempt on his

882
00:27:30.800 --> 00:27:32.839
part in order to get

883
00:27:32.840 --> 00:27:34.399
to the point where he--

884
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:34.899
He could.

885
00:27:34.900 --> 00:27:37.219
He was sharing these poems with you.

886
00:27:37.220 --> 00:27:39.679
How do you work to cultivate

887
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:41.719
those kinds of relationships

888
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:43.759
in other cases where

889
00:27:43.760 --> 00:27:45.289
you may not have the same amount of

890
00:27:45.290 --> 00:27:46.309
time, where you may not have the

891
00:27:46.310 --> 00:27:47.149
same amount of conditions?

892
00:27:47.150 --> 00:27:48.919
How do you work as a doctor to try

893
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:50.239
to cultivate those kinds of

894
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:51.679
relationships with patients in a

895
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:52.999
variety of settings?

896
00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:55.159
Yes. Well, I do often invite

897
00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:57.049
my patients. Most of the care I

898
00:27:57.050 --> 00:27:58.879
give is through my primary care

899
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:01.039
clinic. And so, I have longitudinal,

900
00:28:01.040 --> 00:28:02.899
long-term relationships with most

901
00:28:02.900 --> 00:28:04.579
of my patients. But even when I'm

902
00:28:04.580 --> 00:28:06.049
attending on the wards, for example,

903
00:28:06.050 --> 00:28:07.609
and my interactions with patients

904
00:28:07.610 --> 00:28:09.379
may be more constrained to that

905
00:28:09.380 --> 00:28:11.689
particular space

906
00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:13.519
in the hospital, there are

907
00:28:13.520 --> 00:28:15.949
many ways in which engaging

908
00:28:15.950 --> 00:28:18.409
narratively with patients

909
00:28:18.410 --> 00:28:19.939
can be really powerful.

910
00:28:21.950 --> 00:28:23.689
When I'm rounding with my students

911
00:28:23.690 --> 00:28:25.819
and residents, I always ask patients

912
00:28:25.820 --> 00:28:27.656
to tell me a story about why are

913
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:30.240
you famous?

914
00:28:31.550 --> 00:28:33.559
Tell me a story about who

915
00:28:33.560 --> 00:28:35.179
you are outside of the hospital.

916
00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:36.739
And it's extraordinary the kinds of

917
00:28:36.740 --> 00:28:38.719
things that people will say

918
00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:40.219
in response to that very simple

919
00:28:40.220 --> 00:28:41.220
question that

920
00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:44.209
changes the perspective of the

921
00:28:44.210 --> 00:28:46.429
entire team caring for someone,

922
00:28:46.430 --> 00:28:48.529
for example, with substance

923
00:28:48.530 --> 00:28:49.530
use problems who,

924
00:28:50.630 --> 00:28:52.429
I would say, of all the populations

925
00:28:52.430 --> 00:28:54.169
of patients we care for are often

926
00:28:54.170 --> 00:28:55.969
the most sort of dismissed or

927
00:28:55.970 --> 00:28:56.970
denigrated. There

928
00:28:58.430 --> 00:29:00.799
are so many kinds of bias against

929
00:29:00.800 --> 00:29:03.079
people struggling with addiction in

930
00:29:03.080 --> 00:29:05.029
the hospital. And

931
00:29:05.030 --> 00:29:07.039
when we ask-- sometimes I'll ask a

932
00:29:07.040 --> 00:29:08.719
patient who's struggling with

933
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:09.720
addiction to

934
00:29:10.700 --> 00:29:12.339
tell me about the first time you

935
00:29:12.340 --> 00:29:14.119
used? Tell me what that was like.

936
00:29:14.120 --> 00:29:14.899
What were you doing?

937
00:29:14.900 --> 00:29:16.849
What was your life like then?

938
00:29:16.850 --> 00:29:19.309
And again, these stories

939
00:29:19.310 --> 00:29:20.310
open up and are so

940
00:29:21.550 --> 00:29:22.960
powerfully humanizing that

941
00:29:24.040 --> 00:29:26.709
all the stereotypes of, "Oh, that

942
00:29:26.710 --> 00:29:27.867
junkie, that dirtbag,"

943
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:31.671
are just completely challenged.

944
00:29:33.760 --> 00:29:35.469
So those are a couple of, again,

945
00:29:35.470 --> 00:29:37.059
sort of off the top of my head,

946
00:29:37.060 --> 00:29:38.527
examples of how even in a very busy

947
00:29:38.528 --> 00:29:39.528
hospital

948
00:29:40.780 --> 00:29:42.489
ward setting, that just simply

949
00:29:42.490 --> 00:29:43.959
taking a few minutes to hear the

950
00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:45.879
patient's story can make a

951
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:47.889
tremendous difference in how we see

952
00:29:47.890 --> 00:29:49.899
that person. So suddenly,

953
00:29:49.900 --> 00:29:51.849
they're not the shooter

954
00:29:51.850 --> 00:29:52.850
with endocarditis

955
00:29:54.370 --> 00:29:56.409
and HIV and Hepatitis C.

956
00:29:57.850 --> 00:29:59.648
They're the young mother who was

957
00:29:59.649 --> 00:30:01.269
desperate and made certain--

958
00:30:01.270 --> 00:30:02.270
Made a series of decisions.

959
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:05.079
Individual reasons that brings a

960
00:30:05.080 --> 00:30:06.399
person to that point instead of

961
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:07.929
being a category.

962
00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:08.889
Exactly. And they're not the category

963
00:30:08.890 --> 00:30:10.500
anymore. And that's just

964
00:30:12.460 --> 00:30:14.319
incredibly powerful.

965
00:30:14.320 --> 00:30:16.329
Well, I want to ask

966
00:30:16.330 --> 00:30:18.249
you a question about

967
00:30:18.250 --> 00:30:19.719
your writing about AIDS because

968
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:20.589
that's been something that you've

969
00:30:20.590 --> 00:30:21.639
done for so long.

970
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:22.869
It's been such an important part of

971
00:30:22.870 --> 00:30:24.729
your career, writing in your

972
00:30:24.730 --> 00:30:26.079
essays and also your poetry.

973
00:30:27.130 --> 00:30:28.359
One of the things that I really

974
00:30:28.360 --> 00:30:29.559
enjoyed about reading your work is

975
00:30:29.560 --> 00:30:31.239
that it brought me to Susan Sontag's

976
00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:33.429
essays Illness as Metaphor

977
00:30:33.430 --> 00:30:34.509
and then also AIDS and Its

978
00:30:34.510 --> 00:30:35.949
Metaphors. Really, I know those are

979
00:30:35.950 --> 00:30:37.119
important works to you.

980
00:30:37.120 --> 00:30:38.709
And they were very powerful and

981
00:30:38.710 --> 00:30:39.571
illuminating for me too.

982
00:30:39.572 --> 00:30:40.572
In Illness

983
00:30:42.010 --> 00:30:43.359
as Metaphor, she's writing that in

984
00:30:43.360 --> 00:30:44.889
the late seventies, and she writes

985
00:30:44.890 --> 00:30:46.029
about cancer.

986
00:30:46.030 --> 00:30:47.019
She's talking about kind of the

987
00:30:47.020 --> 00:30:48.849
cultural life of cancer

988
00:30:48.850 --> 00:30:50.919
and comparing it to tuberculosis.

989
00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.019
And she writes about cancer

990
00:30:53.020 --> 00:30:54.969
at the time being unsuitable for

991
00:30:54.970 --> 00:30:55.991
poetry. You can't aestheticize it.

992
00:30:57.190 --> 00:30:59.079
It's obscene, she says.

993
00:30:59.080 --> 00:31:00.579
Right? We can't speak about it.

994
00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:02.709
I got the sense reading

995
00:31:02.710 --> 00:31:04.599
that and then

996
00:31:04.600 --> 00:31:06.309
reading you writing about AIDS that

997
00:31:06.310 --> 00:31:08.469
that was roughly your

998
00:31:08.470 --> 00:31:10.329
experience of AIDS, especially

999
00:31:10.330 --> 00:31:11.289
in the early years. That it was

1000
00:31:11.290 --> 00:31:12.939
something that wasn't supposed to be

1001
00:31:12.940 --> 00:31:14.169
talked about and couldn't be talked

1002
00:31:14.170 --> 00:31:15.369
about for a variety of reasons,

1003
00:31:15.370 --> 00:31:16.233
different maybe than cancer.

1004
00:31:16.234 --> 00:31:18.249
Can you talk about

1005
00:31:18.250 --> 00:31:19.239
that a little bit like you were

1006
00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:20.949
especially writing about AIDS,

1007
00:31:20.950 --> 00:31:23.139
poetry and prose, especially in

1008
00:31:23.140 --> 00:31:24.819
the earlier years of your writing

1009
00:31:24.820 --> 00:31:25.179
about it?

1010
00:31:25.180 --> 00:31:26.019
Yes, absolutely.

1011
00:31:26.020 --> 00:31:27.849
I remember very clearly

1012
00:31:27.850 --> 00:31:30.009
being a resident

1013
00:31:30.010 --> 00:31:31.869
at UCSF, University of

1014
00:31:31.870 --> 00:31:33.879
California San Francisco, at

1015
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:35.709
what was really, I think, the

1016
00:31:35.710 --> 00:31:37.929
sort of peak of the AIDS

1017
00:31:37.930 --> 00:31:39.879
epidemic here in the United States.

1018
00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:40.930
And I remember people

1019
00:31:42.890 --> 00:31:44.700
in the streets with these signs and

1020
00:31:46.130 --> 00:31:47.876
chanting "silence = death" and

1021
00:31:49.130 --> 00:31:50.289
this notion that

1022
00:31:51.320 --> 00:31:54.409
indeed, our words

1023
00:31:54.410 --> 00:31:56.299
potentially could save

1024
00:31:56.300 --> 00:31:58.159
lives. And so

1025
00:31:58.160 --> 00:31:59.839
to go from this notion of this

1026
00:31:59.840 --> 00:32:01.849
highly stigmatized,

1027
00:32:01.850 --> 00:32:03.649
shaming disease, that was a

1028
00:32:03.650 --> 00:32:05.089
punishment from God, that was a

1029
00:32:05.090 --> 00:32:06.569
punishment for being queer,

1030
00:32:08.600 --> 00:32:10.672
that was going to inevitably

1031
00:32:11.870 --> 00:32:14.299
lead to a painful,

1032
00:32:14.300 --> 00:32:15.300
horrifying death to

1033
00:32:16.520 --> 00:32:18.090
this humanized notion of

1034
00:32:19.310 --> 00:32:20.870
communities grappling with

1035
00:32:22.670 --> 00:32:24.319
how can we survive plague?

1036
00:32:24.320 --> 00:32:25.320
How can we

1037
00:32:27.230 --> 00:32:29.179
live through this

1038
00:32:29.180 --> 00:32:30.230
crisis that was

1039
00:32:31.340 --> 00:32:33.319
killing young men my age?

1040
00:32:33.320 --> 00:32:34.320
I mean, when I was on

1041
00:32:35.270 --> 00:32:36.289
the hospital wards,

1042
00:32:37.310 --> 00:32:39.499
rounding every morning

1043
00:32:39.500 --> 00:32:41.419
during that time in my life,

1044
00:32:41.420 --> 00:32:43.609
18 of the 20 patients I

1045
00:32:43.610 --> 00:32:45.499
was caring for at a

1046
00:32:45.500 --> 00:32:47.539
given time were all men my age

1047
00:32:47.540 --> 00:32:48.859
dying of AIDS.

1048
00:32:48.860 --> 00:32:50.689
We had nothing we could offer to

1049
00:32:50.690 --> 00:32:51.690
treat them.

1050
00:32:52.490 --> 00:32:54.289
So I became, again, very, I think,

1051
00:32:54.290 --> 00:32:57.319
acutely aware of how

1052
00:32:57.320 --> 00:32:59.149
our words could save us.

1053
00:32:59.150 --> 00:33:00.799
Not only were they a call to

1054
00:33:00.800 --> 00:33:03.049
community, a call to action,

1055
00:33:03.050 --> 00:33:04.879
but they were also, I

1056
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:06.191
think, a way of remembering, in

1057
00:33:10.180 --> 00:33:12.309
a way, immortalizing those who

1058
00:33:12.310 --> 00:33:13.989
were dying, for whom we had no

1059
00:33:13.990 --> 00:33:15.999
treatments. But we had our stories.

1060
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:17.529
We had poetry.

1061
00:33:17.530 --> 00:33:19.439
We had this opportunity to

1062
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.339
be galvanized as

1063
00:33:21.340 --> 00:33:23.259
a community and to

1064
00:33:23.260 --> 00:33:24.999
fight for change.

1065
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:26.000
And I would say

1066
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:28.479
that those poems and those stories

1067
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:30.639
that came out of the HIV

1068
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:32.559
epidemic, and that still

1069
00:33:32.560 --> 00:33:33.789
are being written, are still being

1070
00:33:33.790 --> 00:33:35.979
told, did

1071
00:33:35.980 --> 00:33:38.289
actually, in some ways, practically

1072
00:33:38.290 --> 00:33:40.029
change the course of the epidemic.

1073
00:33:40.030 --> 00:33:42.189
And we have treatment

1074
00:33:42.190 --> 00:33:43.719
now for HIV and AIDS.

1075
00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:45.819
It's not available to everybody, but

1076
00:33:45.820 --> 00:33:47.829
we have treatments that

1077
00:33:47.830 --> 00:33:49.719
save lives now

1078
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:51.669
that we couldn't even imagine then.

1079
00:33:51.670 --> 00:33:52.670
And so,

1080
00:33:54.550 --> 00:33:56.379
yes, I think part

1081
00:33:56.380 --> 00:33:58.269
of my misgivings at that time

1082
00:33:58.270 --> 00:34:00.249
about writing about

1083
00:34:00.250 --> 00:34:02.199
this just absolutely

1084
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:03.200
harrowing

1085
00:34:04.390 --> 00:34:06.150
crisis had to do with the

1086
00:34:07.270 --> 00:34:09.099
notion of not wanting to

1087
00:34:09.100 --> 00:34:10.100
sort of monumentalize or

1088
00:34:12.730 --> 00:34:14.859
aestheticize, or make some

1089
00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:16.329
sort of beautiful object out of

1090
00:34:16.330 --> 00:34:18.669
suffering. That was

1091
00:34:18.670 --> 00:34:20.529
troubling to me. But then, as I was

1092
00:34:20.530 --> 00:34:22.959
saying, I recognize that what

1093
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:24.819
these activists, what these poets,

1094
00:34:24.820 --> 00:34:26.678
what these teachers, what

1095
00:34:26.679 --> 00:34:28.539
these community

1096
00:34:28.540 --> 00:34:30.569
leaders were trying to do was not to

1097
00:34:31.900 --> 00:34:32.900
monumentalize or

1098
00:34:34.270 --> 00:34:35.859
sugarcoat or to

1099
00:34:37.120 --> 00:34:38.319
prettify what was happening but was

1100
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:40.599
to really sustain

1101
00:34:40.600 --> 00:34:41.529
us as a community.

1102
00:34:41.530 --> 00:34:43.629
And to, again,

1103
00:34:43.630 --> 00:34:45.638
I experienced it so much more as

1104
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:47.229
a kind of call to action, which is

1105
00:34:47.230 --> 00:34:48.639
the kind of objection I have with

1106
00:34:50.380 --> 00:34:51.910
some of Sontag's arguments.

1107
00:34:51.911 --> 00:34:52.911
When

1108
00:34:54.010 --> 00:34:55.988
she says that, for example,

1109
00:34:55.989 --> 00:34:58.029
that our superstitions and our

1110
00:34:58.030 --> 00:34:59.889
negative metaphors in the

1111
00:34:59.890 --> 00:35:01.479
way we think about illness are

1112
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:02.979
actually harmful to people who are

1113
00:35:02.980 --> 00:35:03.819
ill.

1114
00:35:03.820 --> 00:35:05.649
I get that.

1115
00:35:05.650 --> 00:35:06.729
But what I think sometimes

1116
00:35:07.990 --> 00:35:09.849
she neglects

1117
00:35:09.850 --> 00:35:11.679
is that there are also positive

1118
00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:13.929
metaphors, hopeful metaphors

1119
00:35:13.930 --> 00:35:15.939
that come out of the

1120
00:35:15.940 --> 00:35:17.799
experience of illness that are

1121
00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:20.019
inspiring, that make

1122
00:35:20.020 --> 00:35:22.389
change, that bring people together

1123
00:35:22.390 --> 00:35:23.289
in community.

1124
00:35:23.290 --> 00:35:25.179
And again, I think, certainly in the

1125
00:35:25.180 --> 00:35:27.279
case of HIV/AIDS, but I think also

1126
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:29.109
in the world of cancer and in other

1127
00:35:29.110 --> 00:35:31.119
realms, actually, really do save

1128
00:35:31.120 --> 00:35:32.120
lives. And

1129
00:35:33.040 --> 00:35:34.119
so I think it's a little more

1130
00:35:34.120 --> 00:35:36.579
complicated than what Sontag

1131
00:35:36.580 --> 00:35:37.929
puts forward in some of her

1132
00:35:37.930 --> 00:35:40.209
arguments that not all metaphoric

1133
00:35:40.210 --> 00:35:42.129
thinking, not all art that's

1134
00:35:42.130 --> 00:35:44.199
made about the experience of illness

1135
00:35:45.940 --> 00:35:47.499
reflects these kinds of negative

1136
00:35:47.500 --> 00:35:48.663
stereotypes that we have.

1137
00:35:50.530 --> 00:35:51.849
And yes, there are many of those

1138
00:35:51.850 --> 00:35:53.979
that-- of course, the romanticized

1139
00:35:53.980 --> 00:35:56.349
notion of tuberculosis, as this

1140
00:35:56.350 --> 00:35:57.350
way that

1141
00:35:58.930 --> 00:36:01.149
effete gentleman died and

1142
00:36:01.150 --> 00:36:02.530
sort of wasted away.

1143
00:36:03.670 --> 00:36:04.780
And the poets and artists-- or

1144
00:36:06.310 --> 00:36:07.779
that we get cancer because we have

1145
00:36:07.780 --> 00:36:09.250
internalized rage or

1146
00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:12.939
that we get AIDS because we've

1147
00:36:12.940 --> 00:36:14.499
sinned in some sense or another.

1148
00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:16.779
Those negative metaphors are

1149
00:36:16.780 --> 00:36:18.609
potentially, I think, destructive.

1150
00:36:18.610 --> 00:36:21.099
But, again, I think she

1151
00:36:21.100 --> 00:36:23.199
doesn't register that

1152
00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:25.239
some imaginative thinking about

1153
00:36:25.240 --> 00:36:27.219
illness and some art and

1154
00:36:27.220 --> 00:36:29.259
poetry and other responses

1155
00:36:29.260 --> 00:36:30.669
to the experience of illness are

1156
00:36:30.670 --> 00:36:32.829
actually hopeful and are actually

1157
00:36:32.830 --> 00:36:34.119
empowering.

1158
00:36:34.120 --> 00:36:36.039
But I think that

1159
00:36:36.040 --> 00:36:38.169
it's really interesting what

1160
00:36:38.170 --> 00:36:40.030
she has to say about illness

1161
00:36:41.080 --> 00:36:42.339
in those two essays that you mention

1162
00:36:42.340 --> 00:36:44.079
there. I recommend them highly to

1163
00:36:44.080 --> 00:36:45.129
everybody who is thinking about

1164
00:36:45.130 --> 00:36:46.130
these questions.

1165
00:36:47.199 --> 00:36:48.159
Yeah. Well, I wonder, thinking about

1166
00:36:48.160 --> 00:36:49.381
your writing about AIDS, in

1167
00:36:49.382 --> 00:36:50.709
particular, in the early years.

1168
00:36:50.710 --> 00:36:52.269
Would you be willing to read one or

1169
00:36:52.270 --> 00:36:53.619
two poems, particularly an early

1170
00:36:53.620 --> 00:36:54.789
one?

1171
00:36:54.790 --> 00:36:56.079
The one that you got there is the

1172
00:36:56.080 --> 00:36:57.639
10,000th AIDS Death in San

1173
00:36:57.640 --> 00:36:59.559
Francisco. And this is from an

1174
00:36:59.560 --> 00:37:01.299
early collection of yours, What the

1175
00:37:01.300 --> 00:37:02.589
Body Told.

1176
00:37:02.590 --> 00:37:03.760
This is a blast from the past.

1177
00:37:04.810 --> 00:37:06.189
Maybe I could read this and then

1178
00:37:06.190 --> 00:37:07.899
contrast it with one that's more

1179
00:37:07.900 --> 00:37:09.684
recent about the same theme

1180
00:37:09.685 --> 00:37:10.478
because--

1181
00:37:10.479 --> 00:37:10.988
That would be great.

1182
00:37:10.989 --> 00:37:13.689
there's been such evolution in

1183
00:37:13.690 --> 00:37:15.249
how we take care of people with

1184
00:37:15.250 --> 00:37:15.579
AIDS.

1185
00:37:15.580 --> 00:37:17.679
This is from 1996-- a collection

1186
00:37:17.680 --> 00:37:19.209
that was put out in 1996 but written

1187
00:37:19.210 --> 00:37:19.539
earlier.

1188
00:37:19.540 --> 00:37:21.909
Yes. Yes. Written earlier in 1993.

1189
00:37:21.910 --> 00:37:23.289
So this was written on the occasion

1190
00:37:23.290 --> 00:37:25.239
of the 10,000th AIDS death in San

1191
00:37:25.240 --> 00:37:26.240
Francisco.

1192
00:37:27.190 --> 00:37:28.779
"A woman hurried past me in the

1193
00:37:28.780 --> 00:37:30.639
street today, reminding me

1194
00:37:30.640 --> 00:37:32.499
it's not a dream.

1195
00:37:32.500 --> 00:37:34.479
While eating an expensive lunch in

1196
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:36.999
some expensive Caribbean restaurant,

1197
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:38.750
I keep imagining is Cuban-owned.

1198
00:37:39.790 --> 00:37:41.709
I notice that I keep imagining

1199
00:37:41.710 --> 00:37:43.689
the AIDS ward where I saw

1200
00:37:43.690 --> 00:37:46.719
a man my age die yesterday.

1201
00:37:46.720 --> 00:37:48.639
I can't say why, but when

1202
00:37:48.640 --> 00:37:50.469
he looked at me, I wanted him to

1203
00:37:50.470 --> 00:37:52.479
kiss my face.

1204
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:54.429
I wanted him to live with me

1205
00:37:54.430 --> 00:37:56.289
and tell me stories.

1206
00:37:56.290 --> 00:37:58.299
Stories 17 or 18

1207
00:37:58.300 --> 00:38:00.339
hours long involving

1208
00:38:00.340 --> 00:38:02.319
sex beneath the stars

1209
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:04.149
or with celebrities beneath some

1210
00:38:04.150 --> 00:38:05.633
perfect, countless stars.

1211
00:38:05.634 --> 00:38:07.509
About the days

1212
00:38:07.510 --> 00:38:09.669
before the epidemic killed so many

1213
00:38:09.670 --> 00:38:10.750
thousand people.

1214
00:38:11.860 --> 00:38:13.689
Wanting him to live, I

1215
00:38:13.690 --> 00:38:15.699
stood erect beside the bed,

1216
00:38:15.700 --> 00:38:17.559
wanting him.

1217
00:38:17.560 --> 00:38:19.959
The sex itself was great, I'm sure.

1218
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:21.699
But what I'd really like to know was

1219
00:38:21.700 --> 00:38:23.549
how it felt to know that after

1220
00:38:23.550 --> 00:38:25.419
a lunch, in some expensive

1221
00:38:25.420 --> 00:38:27.249
restaurant, your friends would

1222
00:38:27.250 --> 00:38:29.079
be alive.

1223
00:38:29.080 --> 00:38:30.161
Your friends would be alive.

1224
00:38:30.162 --> 00:38:32.109
To know no

1225
00:38:32.110 --> 00:38:34.059
friend would die like that

1226
00:38:34.060 --> 00:38:36.399
of cryptococcal meningitis,

1227
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:38.889
or another kind of meningitis

1228
00:38:38.890 --> 00:38:41.349
or a lung infection so severe

1229
00:38:41.350 --> 00:38:43.629
it makes a kiss impossible

1230
00:38:43.630 --> 00:38:45.759
because the need to breathe is even

1231
00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:46.760
greater.

1232
00:38:47.350 --> 00:38:49.509
Hurriedly, I paid the bill

1233
00:38:49.510 --> 00:38:51.159
because I need to breathe, and

1234
00:38:51.160 --> 00:38:53.499
suddenly, I'm seeing stars.

1235
00:38:53.500 --> 00:38:55.569
I see myself outside some

1236
00:38:55.570 --> 00:38:57.729
Cuban restaurant.

1237
00:38:57.730 --> 00:38:59.679
A woman hurries past me,

1238
00:38:59.680 --> 00:39:00.909
frowning.

1239
00:39:00.910 --> 00:39:01.910
Far."

1240
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:05.949
Thanks so much.

1241
00:39:05.950 --> 00:39:07.269
Do you want to-- and do you want to

1242
00:39:07.270 --> 00:39:08.919
go on the-- another poem we have

1243
00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:10.539
with us is Recent Past Events, which

1244
00:39:10.540 --> 00:39:12.879
is a more recent work

1245
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:14.679
from your most recent collection,

1246
00:39:14.680 --> 00:39:15.639
Alternative Medicine.

1247
00:39:15.640 --> 00:39:16.749
If you don't mind, maybe I would

1248
00:39:16.750 --> 00:39:17.635
read it just because the contrast

1249
00:39:17.636 --> 00:39:18.636
between the two is, I think, maybe

1250
00:39:20.230 --> 00:39:22.269
worth reflecting on a little bit and

1251
00:39:22.270 --> 00:39:24.099
how things have changed and

1252
00:39:24.100 --> 00:39:25.300
have not changed, actually.

1253
00:39:26.380 --> 00:39:28.239
So this is from a much more

1254
00:39:28.240 --> 00:39:30.129
recent collection, Recent

1255
00:39:30.130 --> 00:39:31.130
Past Events.

1256
00:39:32.170 --> 00:39:35.019
"It wasn't so miraculous back then.

1257
00:39:35.020 --> 00:39:36.909
Some said we had their blood on our

1258
00:39:36.910 --> 00:39:38.529
prim hands.

1259
00:39:38.530 --> 00:39:39.909
We were ashamed of our good

1260
00:39:39.910 --> 00:39:41.439
appetites.

1261
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:43.209
We marched together in gay pride

1262
00:39:43.210 --> 00:39:44.589
parades.

1263
00:39:44.590 --> 00:39:46.449
We feared their blood.

1264
00:39:46.450 --> 00:39:48.699
We prayed for it to end.

1265
00:39:48.700 --> 00:39:50.259
We learned the names of lands in

1266
00:39:50.260 --> 00:39:51.369
Africa.

1267
00:39:51.370 --> 00:39:53.349
Botswana, Ghana,

1268
00:39:53.350 --> 00:39:56.049
Tanzania, Chad.

1269
00:39:56.050 --> 00:39:58.929
We adopted universal precautions.

1270
00:39:58.930 --> 00:40:01.029
We prayed for it to end.

1271
00:40:01.030 --> 00:40:02.889
We feared their blood.

1272
00:40:02.890 --> 00:40:04.719
We were afraid to call our parents,

1273
00:40:04.720 --> 00:40:07.239
who we knew would think the worst.

1274
00:40:07.240 --> 00:40:09.879
We learned to speak in acronyms.

1275
00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:11.469
We watched two women kiss on

1276
00:40:11.470 --> 00:40:13.749
television late one night.

1277
00:40:13.750 --> 00:40:15.279
We cried.

1278
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.199
We handed out free condoms in

1279
00:40:17.200 --> 00:40:18.200
the fens.

1280
00:40:18.700 --> 00:40:20.529
Remember when it seemed miraculous

1281
00:40:20.530 --> 00:40:21.999
that most of our close friends

1282
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.589
weren't dead?

1283
00:40:23.590 --> 00:40:25.599
We feared their blood.

1284
00:40:25.600 --> 00:40:27.279
We were ashamed.

1285
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:29.769
We went on trips to Africa.

1286
00:40:29.770 --> 00:40:32.109
We saw a leopard kill an antelope.

1287
00:40:32.110 --> 00:40:34.449
We saw the vast red dunes Namibia

1288
00:40:34.450 --> 00:40:36.219
is famous for.

1289
00:40:36.220 --> 00:40:38.829
We cried at patients' funerals.

1290
00:40:38.830 --> 00:40:40.719
We handed out clean needles in the

1291
00:40:40.720 --> 00:40:41.720
fens.

1292
00:40:42.070 --> 00:40:44.169
We feared their blood.

1293
00:40:44.170 --> 00:40:45.849
We touched each other carefully at

1294
00:40:45.850 --> 00:40:48.009
night, remembered when it felt

1295
00:40:48.010 --> 00:40:49.809
miraculous.

1296
00:40:49.810 --> 00:40:51.549
Remember when his cheekbones didn't

1297
00:40:51.550 --> 00:40:53.559
shut out so much?

1298
00:40:53.560 --> 00:40:55.779
We had their blood on our

1299
00:40:55.780 --> 00:40:57.489
clean hands.

1300
00:40:57.490 --> 00:40:59.229
We were ashamed of living while they

1301
00:40:59.230 --> 00:41:00.609
died.

1302
00:41:00.610 --> 00:41:02.559
We cooked for friends.

1303
00:41:02.560 --> 00:41:04.689
We prayed for it to end.

1304
00:41:04.690 --> 00:41:06.579
We traveled to Peru, New

1305
00:41:06.580 --> 00:41:08.799
Zealand, France.

1306
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:10.809
We bungee jumped from cliffs.

1307
00:41:10.810 --> 00:41:12.429
We sipped red wine.

1308
00:41:12.430 --> 00:41:14.259
We shopped for clothes that fit us

1309
00:41:14.260 --> 00:41:15.549
well.

1310
00:41:15.550 --> 00:41:17.229
We watched the president announce

1311
00:41:17.230 --> 00:41:18.849
more funds.

1312
00:41:18.850 --> 00:41:20.379
We cried.

1313
00:41:20.380 --> 00:41:21.759
We were ashamed of our good

1314
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:23.379
appetites.

1315
00:41:23.380 --> 00:41:25.269
We watched two women kiss outside

1316
00:41:25.270 --> 00:41:27.249
the door of our favorite Chinese

1317
00:41:27.250 --> 00:41:28.749
restaurant.

1318
00:41:28.750 --> 00:41:31.419
We talked about adopting kids.

1319
00:41:31.420 --> 00:41:34.059
We feared what people thought of us.

1320
00:41:34.060 --> 00:41:35.889
We bought a house.

1321
00:41:35.890 --> 00:41:37.929
We painted the back bedroom red

1322
00:41:37.930 --> 00:41:39.549
like blood.

1323
00:41:39.550 --> 00:41:42.399
We gave less money to the charities.

1324
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:44.439
We found a nice church that accepted

1325
00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:45.579
us.

1326
00:41:45.580 --> 00:41:47.649
The stained glass windows seemed

1327
00:41:47.650 --> 00:41:48.650
miraculous.

1328
00:41:49.600 --> 00:41:51.369
We ate our dinner.

1329
00:41:51.370 --> 00:41:53.049
We remembered how we feared their

1330
00:41:53.050 --> 00:41:54.879
blood, and how we prayed

1331
00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:56.859
for it to end and

1332
00:41:56.860 --> 00:41:58.239
how it never really did."

1333
00:42:03.700 --> 00:42:04.700
Thanks so much.

1334
00:42:05.860 --> 00:42:07.029
I wonder if you just would be

1335
00:42:07.030 --> 00:42:08.589
willing to reflect on those two

1336
00:42:08.590 --> 00:42:10.269
poems and thoughts that you have

1337
00:42:10.270 --> 00:42:12.129
now, reading them and

1338
00:42:12.130 --> 00:42:13.444
thinking about your

1339
00:42:14.710 --> 00:42:15.789
poems that you've written on this

1340
00:42:15.790 --> 00:42:17.769
subject and others.

1341
00:42:17.770 --> 00:42:19.659
Yes. Well, I

1342
00:42:19.660 --> 00:42:20.660
can't help but mark

1343
00:42:21.790 --> 00:42:23.769
the incredible distance

1344
00:42:23.770 --> 00:42:25.989
we've traveled in

1345
00:42:25.990 --> 00:42:28.149
caring for people with HIV and AIDS.

1346
00:42:28.150 --> 00:42:30.369
But at the same time, how

1347
00:42:30.370 --> 00:42:32.529
little things have changed in

1348
00:42:32.530 --> 00:42:33.530
some ways. I

1349
00:42:34.750 --> 00:42:35.750
think that

1350
00:42:37.630 --> 00:42:39.129
I actually wrote the second poem

1351
00:42:39.130 --> 00:42:41.469
after I gave a--

1352
00:42:41.470 --> 00:42:43.149
it was a reading on World AIDS Day,

1353
00:42:43.150 --> 00:42:45.039
actually, at a liberal arts

1354
00:42:45.040 --> 00:42:47.499
college I love very much.

1355
00:42:47.500 --> 00:42:49.089
That's very much like my alma mater,

1356
00:42:49.090 --> 00:42:50.319
Oberlin College.

1357
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:51.129
And one of the students who

1358
00:42:51.130 --> 00:42:52.569
organized this wonderful event came

1359
00:42:52.570 --> 00:42:54.519
up to me afterward and said,

1360
00:42:54.520 --> 00:42:55.539
"Well, it's so great that you're

1361
00:42:55.540 --> 00:42:57.129
still writing about HIV and AIDS

1362
00:42:57.130 --> 00:42:58.737
because now that we have a cure and

1363
00:43:00.550 --> 00:43:02.109
it's just really important that

1364
00:43:02.110 --> 00:43:04.749
someone still is writing about

1365
00:43:04.750 --> 00:43:06.639
this disease." And

1366
00:43:06.640 --> 00:43:08.679
I was just so taken aback

1367
00:43:08.680 --> 00:43:10.689
by this

1368
00:43:10.690 --> 00:43:13.089
comment that we had

1369
00:43:13.090 --> 00:43:14.319
a cure for AIDS.

1370
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:16.119
And it made me reflect on that.

1371
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:20.289
In biomedicine, we tend to

1372
00:43:20.290 --> 00:43:22.150
overhype all of our advances and

1373
00:43:23.890 --> 00:43:24.755
all of our technologies.

1374
00:43:24.756 --> 00:43:25.756
And,

1375
00:43:27.910 --> 00:43:28.910
again, we do have amazing

1376
00:43:30.820 --> 00:43:33.159
treatments that weren't available

1377
00:43:33.160 --> 00:43:35.049
even ten years ago for people with

1378
00:43:35.050 --> 00:43:36.050
HIV and AIDS. But, at

1379
00:43:36.910 --> 00:43:38.269
the same time, there are still 40

1380
00:43:38.270 --> 00:43:39.879
million people on this planet who

1381
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:41.679
have HIV infection.

1382
00:43:41.680 --> 00:43:43.569
And most of them are going to die of

1383
00:43:43.570 --> 00:43:45.219
AIDS because they don't have access

1384
00:43:45.220 --> 00:43:47.979
to these miraculous

1385
00:43:47.980 --> 00:43:49.070
treatments. And so

1386
00:43:50.770 --> 00:43:52.779
it was a moment for me to reflect

1387
00:43:52.780 --> 00:43:54.789
back on the time

1388
00:43:54.790 --> 00:43:55.790
of 1993 when

1389
00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:58.149
we didn't have any treatment at all.

1390
00:43:58.150 --> 00:44:00.011
And yet, how

1391
00:44:03.220 --> 00:44:05.679
we think we

1392
00:44:05.680 --> 00:44:07.749
have, in some ways, solved

1393
00:44:07.750 --> 00:44:10.359
this crisis

1394
00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:11.398
through science.

1395
00:44:11.399 --> 00:44:13.689
Again, I think

1396
00:44:13.690 --> 00:44:15.549
we still have need for

1397
00:44:15.550 --> 00:44:16.550
poems that speak

1398
00:44:18.070 --> 00:44:19.959
in some sense to the

1399
00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:21.969
ongoing truths of an epidemic

1400
00:44:21.970 --> 00:44:24.399
that rages on, and that

1401
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:26.409
is killing people

1402
00:44:26.410 --> 00:44:28.149
in Africa, in particular, but in

1403
00:44:28.150 --> 00:44:29.150
other parts of the world

1404
00:44:30.160 --> 00:44:31.709
without these treatment.

1405
00:44:31.710 --> 00:44:32.710
So, yes,

1406
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:35.049
things have changed in San

1407
00:44:35.050 --> 00:44:36.249
Francisco, perhaps, but

1408
00:44:37.300 --> 00:44:39.249
they haven't yet changed

1409
00:44:39.250 --> 00:44:39.759
everywhere.

1410
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:41.889
Yeah. Well, one of the features

1411
00:44:41.890 --> 00:44:43.839
of the second poem that you read

1412
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:46.389
that stands out to me very much

1413
00:44:46.390 --> 00:44:47.619
is the vary in kinds of

1414
00:44:48.640 --> 00:44:50.529
collectivities signaled by the "we."

1415
00:44:50.530 --> 00:44:52.359
There's "We adopted universal

1416
00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:53.559
precautions" is a very different

1417
00:44:53.560 --> 00:44:55.449
"we" then "we travel to

1418
00:44:55.450 --> 00:44:56.450
Africa," for example.

1419
00:44:57.590 --> 00:44:58.689
We adopted kids.

1420
00:44:58.690 --> 00:44:59.079
Yes.

1421
00:44:59.080 --> 00:45:00.399
Yeah.

1422
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:02.499
So that, to me,

1423
00:45:02.500 --> 00:45:04.539
is a question about politics

1424
00:45:04.540 --> 00:45:05.619
that is raised through your poem.

1425
00:45:05.620 --> 00:45:07.089
Right? The relationship between

1426
00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:08.949
these different sizes of groups of

1427
00:45:08.950 --> 00:45:09.819
people.

1428
00:45:09.820 --> 00:45:11.469
And so, I wonder if we could finish

1429
00:45:11.470 --> 00:45:13.329
by me asking you about

1430
00:45:13.330 --> 00:45:14.679
the last essay in The Desire to

1431
00:45:14.680 --> 00:45:16.419
Heal, which to me, is the essay of

1432
00:45:16.420 --> 00:45:18.309
yours where you address the

1433
00:45:18.310 --> 00:45:20.139
politics of being a poet and being

1434
00:45:20.140 --> 00:45:21.759
a doctor most directly.

1435
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:23.319
It was inspired by a conversation

1436
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:25.419
you had by a dean

1437
00:45:25.420 --> 00:45:26.619
at Harvard Medical School who

1438
00:45:26.620 --> 00:45:28.449
suggested that, in your future

1439
00:45:28.450 --> 00:45:29.679
career, you would want to give back

1440
00:45:29.680 --> 00:45:31.299
to your community or the community

1441
00:45:31.300 --> 00:45:33.189
or whatever. But the essay is

1442
00:45:33.190 --> 00:45:35.019
about complicating that suggestion

1443
00:45:35.020 --> 00:45:36.849
and about giving and the

1444
00:45:36.850 --> 00:45:38.590
various ways that people can give--

1445
00:45:38.591 --> 00:45:40.149
about communities and the various

1446
00:45:40.150 --> 00:45:41.649
kinds of communities that any one

1447
00:45:41.650 --> 00:45:43.059
person is in.

1448
00:45:43.060 --> 00:45:44.679
And you finish the essay talking a

1449
00:45:44.680 --> 00:45:46.089
little bit about poetry and its

1450
00:45:46.090 --> 00:45:48.129
relationship for you to all of this,

1451
00:45:48.130 --> 00:45:50.049
how complicated that is.

1452
00:45:50.050 --> 00:45:51.789
So I wonder if we could finish this

1453
00:45:51.790 --> 00:45:53.679
part, at least,

1454
00:45:53.680 --> 00:45:55.089
with you just reflecting a little

1455
00:45:55.090 --> 00:45:56.919
bit on poetry and

1456
00:45:56.920 --> 00:45:59.169
giving and poetry as giving.

1457
00:45:59.170 --> 00:46:00.170
And what

1458
00:46:01.120 --> 00:46:02.859
that makes you think of in terms of

1459
00:46:02.860 --> 00:46:04.719
how poetry has worked for you

1460
00:46:04.720 --> 00:46:06.579
in your career as a poet, as

1461
00:46:06.580 --> 00:46:08.439
a doctor, and as a person.

1462
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:09.440
Wow. Well,

1463
00:46:11.080 --> 00:46:12.399
I could spend a lot of time

1464
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:14.229
answering that question, but I'll

1465
00:46:14.230 --> 00:46:16.149
try to be more brief, I

1466
00:46:16.150 --> 00:46:17.889
think. My goodness, yes.

1467
00:46:17.890 --> 00:46:21.039
Poetry has, I think, extraordinary

1468
00:46:21.040 --> 00:46:22.959
power, I think to join us

1469
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:24.369
empathetically, as we were saying

1470
00:46:24.370 --> 00:46:26.199
earlier. And I can't think

1471
00:46:26.200 --> 00:46:28.389
of any form

1472
00:46:28.390 --> 00:46:29.390
of service, of

1473
00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:32.979
giving of oneself that is

1474
00:46:32.980 --> 00:46:34.239
perhaps more

1475
00:46:35.350 --> 00:46:37.539
powerful, more

1476
00:46:37.540 --> 00:46:39.729
meaningful than

1477
00:46:39.730 --> 00:46:41.679
the way I think

1478
00:46:41.680 --> 00:46:43.509
souls can sort

1479
00:46:43.510 --> 00:46:46.209
of touch each other through the

1480
00:46:46.210 --> 00:46:48.189
experience of sharing

1481
00:46:48.190 --> 00:46:50.019
a story, sharing a poem.

1482
00:46:50.020 --> 00:46:51.639
And so, in that very sort of

1483
00:46:51.640 --> 00:46:52.869
personal sense, I think

1484
00:46:54.610 --> 00:46:56.920
poetry is this

1485
00:46:57.970 --> 00:47:00.099
conduit to giving

1486
00:47:00.100 --> 00:47:02.229
of oneself and giving

1487
00:47:02.230 --> 00:47:04.499
not only one's fullest

1488
00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:06.389
attention through the

1489
00:47:06.390 --> 00:47:07.390
empathetic

1490
00:47:08.730 --> 00:47:10.889
joining that I just described,

1491
00:47:10.890 --> 00:47:12.089
but also, I think

1492
00:47:13.710 --> 00:47:14.789
giving of one's

1493
00:47:16.110 --> 00:47:17.999
sense of self

1494
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:19.456
that I think--

1495
00:47:20.670 --> 00:47:22.679
again, in medicine,

1496
00:47:22.680 --> 00:47:24.509
we so often regard our patients

1497
00:47:24.510 --> 00:47:26.339
as the sum of their problem

1498
00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:28.259
lists. And we don't

1499
00:47:28.260 --> 00:47:30.119
recognize the person

1500
00:47:30.120 --> 00:47:32.399
sitting there with us in the clinic,

1501
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:34.229
sitting there in that

1502
00:47:34.230 --> 00:47:35.340
flimsy paper gown, who

1503
00:47:36.930 --> 00:47:38.969
has a whole life narrative

1504
00:47:38.970 --> 00:47:41.099
that isn't just

1505
00:47:41.100 --> 00:47:42.809
another case of breast cancer, that

1506
00:47:42.810 --> 00:47:43.810
isn't just another HIV

1507
00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:47.639
diagnosis.

1508
00:47:47.640 --> 00:47:49.979
There's a whole particular story

1509
00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:52.469
in each of those

1510
00:47:52.470 --> 00:47:54.179
person's experiences that

1511
00:47:55.470 --> 00:47:57.869
we often neglect.

1512
00:47:57.870 --> 00:48:00.209
And so, I think

1513
00:48:00.210 --> 00:48:02.459
in that way, poetry and, again,

1514
00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:04.439
being attentive to the

1515
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:06.510
poetry of my patients

1516
00:48:07.530 --> 00:48:09.359
stories has

1517
00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:11.429
really given me, I think,

1518
00:48:11.430 --> 00:48:13.079
the opportunity to be a more

1519
00:48:13.080 --> 00:48:14.730
effective, more present,

1520
00:48:16.620 --> 00:48:18.739
more compassionate - I hope -

1521
00:48:18.740 --> 00:48:20.309
healer in a broad sense.

1522
00:48:20.310 --> 00:48:21.929
And I think

1523
00:48:22.980 --> 00:48:24.869
this notion also of community that

1524
00:48:24.870 --> 00:48:27.119
you mentioned I think

1525
00:48:27.120 --> 00:48:28.124
poetry also is

1526
00:48:29.250 --> 00:48:31.379
because of the way in which

1527
00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:33.209
I think it really does call

1528
00:48:33.210 --> 00:48:35.249
us together, perhaps

1529
00:48:35.250 --> 00:48:37.259
more so than any other kind of

1530
00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:39.149
written art form, because it is also

1531
00:48:39.150 --> 00:48:41.279
spoken. And we join

1532
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:43.559
together in the experience of

1533
00:48:43.560 --> 00:48:44.560
voice

1534
00:48:45.390 --> 00:48:46.229
through poetry.

1535
00:48:46.230 --> 00:48:47.605
And so I think

1536
00:48:48.900 --> 00:48:51.299
that's another way in which poetry

1537
00:48:51.300 --> 00:48:53.609
gives all of us this opportunity

1538
00:48:53.610 --> 00:48:54.610
to be

1539
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:58.709
really more present to one another

1540
00:48:58.710 --> 00:49:00.779
and to be joined in shared

1541
00:49:00.780 --> 00:49:02.429
experience, to be, as I said a

1542
00:49:02.430 --> 00:49:04.229
little bit earlier, immersed in

1543
00:49:04.230 --> 00:49:06.269
another person's voice

1544
00:49:06.270 --> 00:49:08.549
instead of in our little

1545
00:49:08.550 --> 00:49:10.379
kind of tiny screens and

1546
00:49:10.380 --> 00:49:12.142
our own sort of echo chambers of

1547
00:49:12.143 --> 00:49:13.143
technology-induced

1548
00:49:16.650 --> 00:49:17.939
disconnection.

1549
00:49:17.940 --> 00:49:19.769
Although I know we're in a smaller

1550
00:49:19.770 --> 00:49:21.509
and smaller world, I sometimes

1551
00:49:21.510 --> 00:49:23.459
wonder if we are becoming, in some

1552
00:49:23.460 --> 00:49:25.050
ways, more

1553
00:49:26.490 --> 00:49:29.159
disjoint from each other through

1554
00:49:29.160 --> 00:49:29.969
these technologies.

1555
00:49:29.970 --> 00:49:32.009
So I

1556
00:49:32.010 --> 00:49:33.179
think those are some of the ways in

1557
00:49:33.180 --> 00:49:35.309
which poetry

1558
00:49:35.310 --> 00:49:36.089
gives.

1559
00:49:36.090 --> 00:49:37.979
And I

1560
00:49:37.980 --> 00:49:40.049
think it's really-- I can't imagine

1561
00:49:40.050 --> 00:49:41.969
doing my work every day

1562
00:49:41.970 --> 00:49:43.462
without poetry present in my life.

1563
00:49:44.520 --> 00:49:46.109
Dr. Campo, thank you so much.

1564
00:49:46.110 --> 00:49:47.110
Thank you.

1565
00:49:52.830 --> 00:49:54.059
That's it for this edition of Being

1566
00:49:54.060 --> 00:49:54.959
Human.

1567
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:56.429
This episode was produced by Matt

1568
00:49:56.430 --> 00:49:58.259
Moret, Undergraduate Media Fellow at

1569
00:49:58.260 --> 00:49:59.669
the University of Pittsburgh.

1570
00:49:59.670 --> 00:50:01.019
Stay tuned next time when my guest

1571
00:50:01.020 --> 00:50:02.759
will be Rudolph Ware, director of

1572
00:50:02.760 --> 00:50:03.989
the Islamic Knowledge Research

1573
00:50:03.990 --> 00:50:05.159
Initiative at the University of

1574
00:50:05.160 --> 00:50:06.119
Michigan.

1575
00:50:06.120 --> 00:50:07.120
Thanks for listening.