The Politics of Space: An Interview with Mabel Wilson

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Hello and welcome to the latest

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installment of Being Human from the

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University of Pittsburgh.

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This series is devoted to exploring

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the humanities, their connections to

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other disciplines, and their value

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in the public world.

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I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of

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the Humanities Center at Pitt.

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My guest today is Mabel Wilson,

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architect, designer, and professor

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of Architecture at Columbia

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University.

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Throughout her career, Professor

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Wilson has sought to redefine the

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terms that people use to discuss and

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practice architecture by insisting

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that issues like race, class, and

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labor should play a central role in

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understanding our built environment.

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Sometimes this means rewriting

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architectural history so that these

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issues play a leading role.

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This is her approach in important

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essays on Le Corbusier, the history

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of prison architecture, and her 2012

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book Negro Building: Black Americans

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in the World Affairs and Museums.

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Professor Wilson takes a more

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activist stance in projects like Who

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Builds Your Architecture?, a

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collective of architects and

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scholars committed to examining the

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connections between labor and

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building.

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And she puts all this work into

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practice as an architect, for

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example, in her contributions to one

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of six teams selected as finalists

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for the Smithsonian National Museum

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of African American History and

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Culture.

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In this work, as in all her others,

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Professor Wilson sees connections

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between built spaces and social

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issues in ways that bring a sense of

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urgency to efforts to reform

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architectural criticism and

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practice.

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I began by asking her how she first

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came to see these connections and

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what convinced her that they were

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worth exploring.

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I think it had to do with my own

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education in architecture.

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I went to the University of

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Virginia, and I think the university

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has a pretty

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celebrated history of architecture

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because of Jefferson's design for

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the university.

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It's a UNESCO World Heritage site.

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I mean, it's in the history books,

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and so being an architecture student

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in a place like UVA was

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special in the sense of the

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legacy of Jefferson.

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And yet I never heard anything about

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the history of slavery in

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relationship to the time of

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Jefferson ever.

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And then, as

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my education went on and on,

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I kept hearing examples of, well,

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you need to study Palazzo Farnese.

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You need to

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know English.

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I took a class in the history of

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English architecture, and I was

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getting all of this kind of European

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history of architecture, and those

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became the precedence that we used

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in studio.

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And yet, I didn't see my own

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experience reflected in the

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work. So it's like looking in the

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mirror and seeing yourself being

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invisible. And that was a big

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question mark for me.

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Like I kept saying, "Well, why?"

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I was interested to see the one of

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your first published works was

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on Le Corbusier and the way that

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race figured into some of his

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writings. And I thought that that

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might have been an example of you

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kind of like taking someone who's

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kind of at the center of this

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Eurocentric kind of architectural

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education and trying to ask that new

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question in engagement with his

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work. Do you look back and kind of

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see that?

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Yeah, that came out.

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Again, I had studied Le Corbusier

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in a seminar that was taught

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by Kenneth Frampton when I was a

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grad student at Columbia doing my

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Masters of Architecture.

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My M.Arch.

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And I had looked at the radiant city

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and was fascinated by Corbusier's

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ideas. And I don't even know how I

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came across When the Cathedrals Were

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White. And then, I read it, and

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he talks about being in Harlem and

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going to a jazz club.

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And there were these Black bodies

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and the way he describes them as

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being savage, but their energy

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would be necessary for the engine of

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modernity. And I was like, whoa.

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One, why don't we read

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this text more?

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Why is it considered a kind of

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supplemental secondary text

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when it seems like it's his

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effort at sort of documenting

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his own kind of travels to

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present his ideas to a public?

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And it just raised a lot of

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questions. There are also kind of

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narratives about women in there that

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American women are these sort of

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Amazonian figures.

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He gives them a kind of Greek

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persona. Yeah. And

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so it allowed me to kind of ask

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the question not only of what Le

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Corbusier is saying about gender,

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about race, about America

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in relationship to Europe, but also,

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why was it that we don't read

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that text?

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Yeah.

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Very recently, within the last few

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months in Curbed, which is an

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architecture site, you were part

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of a group of architects talking

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about race and architecture.

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You commented that "Race in modern

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architecture is not about being

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inclusive. It's about questioning

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racial concepts, how we think

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racially, how that is embedded in

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the very things, the tools, the

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discourse through which we learn and

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understand architecture." That stood

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out to me because so much of the

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way that I think that I have

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been part of conversations,

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particularly administrative

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conversations about diversity and

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race, inclusion is always good.

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Diversity is always good.

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Exclusion is always bad.

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And it's kind of that simple, kind

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of like binary way of looking at it.

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You're saying something a little bit

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different here, though.

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What was the point that you wanted

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to make?

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I think it's-- and there are a

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number of writers who address this

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question about modern

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epistemology and ontology, about

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what does it mean for the modern

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subject to emerge in the world,

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and where does that subjectivity

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come from? And the really

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fascinating research

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by semioticians and

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philosophers sort of thinking

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about the concept of Europe

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as a kind of entity emerging

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at a moment through colonial

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contact, when the understanding

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of the world, even though it was

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flat, was that you still had Europe,

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Asia, and Africa.

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And then this thing called the New

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World sort of pops up, and

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it's just like, well, what does that

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mean? And particularly within a kind

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of religious Judeo-Christian

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framework about how

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does one encounter difference. And I

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think a lot of that work,

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research, conversations around

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the emergence of like racial

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difference, I think is really kind

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of important in terms of

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how race emerges

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as an understanding of the

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engagement with others and how

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it becomes definitive of a number of

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things, of aesthetics, of the

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sciences, of a concept

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of history.

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It allows the modern European to see

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himself in relationship to a world

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of others, and it produces an

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understanding of liberalism.

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It's fundamental to enlightenment

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thought. I mean, I teach a class

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where we read Kant and Herder

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and Hegel in terms of how

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they're thinking about it.

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But then you can write Thomas

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Jefferson, to go back to my own

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education, into

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that trajectory where they're trying

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to figure out why

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are these people different from

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who we are.

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And then by the emergence of the

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modern sciences, as kind of Foucault

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describes in The Order of Things,

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that you have a different way in

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which that racial difference

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gets instantiated through

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anthropology than sociology,

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the biological sciences.

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And you get things like eugenics

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that emerge.

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And all throughout that, architects

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are in dialogue with these ideas.

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And so, in a way, I mean,

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architecture, just like art,

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history, they're

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all in conversation with one

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another.

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And so I just think the racial is

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fundamental to the formation

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of the modern world.

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Otherwise, we wouldn't be dealing

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with these issues.

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Right? You know, as a nation-state

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or as a world.

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Yeah.

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Are students receptive to and eager

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to try to reframe

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the way that they are approaching

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some of these questions?

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It's great. I think a lot of times

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when the issue of race comes up,

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there's anxiety.

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There's always anxiety because

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people feel implicated somehow

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in their current circumstances.

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And it's true we are all implicated

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in terms of how race operates

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institutionally and structurally.

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That allows some people

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to move more easily through

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structures, institutions. In

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others, it's a challenge if they can

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even move through at all or be

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excluded. So the inclusion is, I

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think, very real.

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But I do think that we have to

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fundamentally rethink the kind

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of intellectual frameworks

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through which we sort of understand

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the world. And by doing that, the

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students all of a sudden are like,

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"Oh, that's where that comes from.

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Oh, now I see." You know, they'll

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say, "Oh God.

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I mean, we can't read judgments

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in the same way." You know, the

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judgments that he does on

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aesthetics. If you don't understand

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what he's writing about it in terms

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of anthropology, how does this guy

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who's like in Königsberg in Prussia,

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00:08:12.810 --> 00:08:14.789
who never goes anywhere,

288
00:08:14.790 --> 00:08:16.379
writing about the world

289
00:08:16.380 --> 00:08:17.669
authoritatively?

290
00:08:17.670 --> 00:08:18.670
And it's just when

291
00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:20.879
they start to kind of think about

292
00:08:20.880 --> 00:08:22.679
the context in which these works are

293
00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:24.509
being done and all of a sudden,

294
00:08:24.510 --> 00:08:26.909
"Oh, okay."

295
00:08:26.910 --> 00:08:29.099
And that's kind of the point of the

296
00:08:29.100 --> 00:08:31.169
class. And the project I'm working

297
00:08:31.170 --> 00:08:32.729
on race and modern architecture is

298
00:08:32.730 --> 00:08:34.678
to kind of say, yeah, this

299
00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:36.658
stuff is fundamentally embedded in

300
00:08:36.659 --> 00:08:37.709
the bodies of knowledge that

301
00:08:37.710 --> 00:08:39.509
architects are working through to

302
00:08:39.510 --> 00:08:41.099
frame the emergence of the modern

303
00:08:41.100 --> 00:08:42.928
discipline and the

304
00:08:42.929 --> 00:08:44.309
profession as well.

305
00:08:44.310 --> 00:08:45.629
Hearing you talk about this, I'm

306
00:08:45.630 --> 00:08:46.859
thinking about the kind of like--

307
00:08:46.860 --> 00:08:48.989
that's a process of looking back

308
00:08:48.990 --> 00:08:50.879
and thinking, "Okay, where do our

309
00:08:50.880 --> 00:08:52.439
inherited ideas about race come

310
00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:54.299
from?" And the question

311
00:08:54.300 --> 00:08:55.829
also that I think you ask in some of

312
00:08:55.830 --> 00:08:57.719
your projects is what can we put

313
00:08:57.720 --> 00:08:59.999
in place of some of the

314
00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:01.109
things that we've inherited?

315
00:09:01.110 --> 00:09:02.849
And I'm thinking here of your

316
00:09:02.850 --> 00:09:03.899
project Who Builds Your

317
00:09:03.900 --> 00:09:05.309
Architecture? That's a project that

318
00:09:05.310 --> 00:09:07.919
deals more with global labor

319
00:09:07.920 --> 00:09:09.359
than race, which race is implicated

320
00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:10.709
in, but it deals with labor.

321
00:09:10.710 --> 00:09:12.659
But that, to me, is an example

322
00:09:12.660 --> 00:09:14.549
of trying to figure out some

323
00:09:14.550 --> 00:09:15.899
things that you could put in place

324
00:09:15.900 --> 00:09:17.309
of a system that is inherently

325
00:09:17.310 --> 00:09:18.899
unfair and that currently exists.

326
00:09:18.900 --> 00:09:20.099
Can you talk a little bit about that

327
00:09:20.100 --> 00:09:20.579
project?

328
00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:22.259
Yeah. I mean, I think it has a

329
00:09:22.260 --> 00:09:23.879
contemporary register because I

330
00:09:23.880 --> 00:09:25.139
don't think these frameworks have

331
00:09:25.140 --> 00:09:26.669
disappeared. They're still very

332
00:09:26.670 --> 00:09:28.259
operative in terms of how they

333
00:09:28.260 --> 00:09:29.759
produce inequalities.

334
00:09:29.760 --> 00:09:31.589
And so I think

335
00:09:31.590 --> 00:09:33.359
it's important to kind of look at

336
00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:34.949
the history of how that comes into

337
00:09:34.950 --> 00:09:36.989
formation. I wrote a piece

338
00:09:36.990 --> 00:09:38.999
recently for a project called Super

339
00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:40.829
Humanity that was for the

340
00:09:40.830 --> 00:09:42.719
Istanbul Biennale, which was curated

341
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:44.549
by Mark Wigley and Beatrice

342
00:09:44.550 --> 00:09:45.550
Colomina. And

343
00:09:46.740 --> 00:09:48.479
they had all the installations,

344
00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:49.799
which I hear were quite fantastic.

345
00:09:49.800 --> 00:09:51.119
But then they asked people from

346
00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:52.379
around the world to basically

347
00:09:52.380 --> 00:09:54.179
comment on this question: are we

348
00:09:54.180 --> 00:09:54.959
still human?

349
00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:56.369
And they gave us a very interesting

350
00:09:56.370 --> 00:09:58.349
quote by a philosopher,

351
00:09:58.350 --> 00:10:00.269
Boris Groys - I always mangle his

352
00:10:00.270 --> 00:10:02.058
name, but I think it's Boris Groys -

353
00:10:02.059 --> 00:10:03.749
about the emergence of design in the

354
00:10:03.750 --> 00:10:06.419
early 20th century as being

355
00:10:06.420 --> 00:10:07.739
the design of the self.

356
00:10:07.740 --> 00:10:09.058
And he references Adolf Loos.

357
00:10:09.059 --> 00:10:11.459
And I thought instantly,

358
00:10:11.460 --> 00:10:13.499
"Well, that's a certain self

359
00:10:13.500 --> 00:10:15.209
that's assumed to be universal, and

360
00:10:15.210 --> 00:10:17.099
the design is automatically assumed

361
00:10:17.100 --> 00:10:17.969
to be universal.

362
00:10:17.970 --> 00:10:19.739
But we're actually talking about

363
00:10:19.740 --> 00:10:21.779
Loos." Austrian.

364
00:10:21.780 --> 00:10:23.669
Sort of in the middle

365
00:10:23.670 --> 00:10:24.658
of, you know.

366
00:10:24.659 --> 00:10:25.378
A specific history that produced that sense of self.

367
00:10:25.379 --> 00:10:26.909
It's a very specific history with an

368
00:10:26.910 --> 00:10:28.769
understanding of the self that

369
00:10:28.770 --> 00:10:29.770
is not universal. And

370
00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:32.369
if you read Ornament and Crime, I

371
00:10:32.370 --> 00:10:34.409
mean, he sets up a kind of teleology

372
00:10:34.410 --> 00:10:36.329
of civilization from the primitive.

373
00:10:36.330 --> 00:10:38.159
He talks about the primitive body,

374
00:10:38.160 --> 00:10:40.019
the Negro, that

375
00:10:40.020 --> 00:10:42.479
then positions the erudite

376
00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:44.909
well-dressed, Austrian

377
00:10:44.910 --> 00:10:46.919
man at the kind of pinnacle

378
00:10:46.920 --> 00:10:48.869
of progress in civilization.

379
00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:50.729
And I think because that

380
00:10:50.730 --> 00:10:52.079
gets read in so many history

381
00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:53.939
classes, it still has an

382
00:10:53.940 --> 00:10:55.079
impact on thinking.

383
00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:56.849
And it's kind of the subliminal

384
00:10:56.850 --> 00:10:58.739
sense of moving forward, I think,

385
00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:01.199
impacts on how we think about

386
00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:02.399
the world today.

387
00:11:02.400 --> 00:11:03.539
And so, when you think about

388
00:11:03.540 --> 00:11:05.459
laborers working in a place

389
00:11:05.460 --> 00:11:07.379
like Dubai on projects

390
00:11:07.380 --> 00:11:09.239
that are experimental

391
00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:10.758
parametric forms, well, they're

392
00:11:11.970 --> 00:11:14.009
just labor coming from rural

393
00:11:14.010 --> 00:11:15.239
areas in Bangladesh.

394
00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:17.159
But it's important for me to have

395
00:11:17.160 --> 00:11:19.079
my vision of architecture

396
00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:20.159
realized.

397
00:11:20.160 --> 00:11:21.389
But I think it's already kind of

398
00:11:21.390 --> 00:11:23.459
embedded in what we learn.

399
00:11:23.460 --> 00:11:25.079
Architecture must always project

400
00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:25.919
into the future.

401
00:11:25.920 --> 00:11:28.768
It's a very prospective discipline.

402
00:11:28.769 --> 00:11:29.759
Yeah. And one of the things I appreciate

403
00:11:29.760 --> 00:11:31.019
about the field guide that was

404
00:11:31.020 --> 00:11:32.609
recently published as part of the

405
00:11:32.610 --> 00:11:33.689
Who Build Your Architecture?

406
00:11:33.690 --> 00:11:35.849
project is that there are so

407
00:11:35.850 --> 00:11:38.549
many different kinds of suggestions

408
00:11:38.550 --> 00:11:40.079
in it about here are some things

409
00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:41.819
that we can do to try to create a

410
00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:43.639
new way of looking at building

411
00:11:43.640 --> 00:11:45.169
and a new way of participating in a

412
00:11:45.170 --> 00:11:47.089
more equitable building process

413
00:11:47.090 --> 00:11:47.869
as architects.

414
00:11:47.870 --> 00:11:48.799
And I wonder, can you say a little

415
00:11:48.800 --> 00:11:50.269
bit about some of those ways of

416
00:11:50.270 --> 00:11:51.679
going forward in a more equitable

417
00:11:51.680 --> 00:11:52.009
way?

418
00:11:52.010 --> 00:11:53.869
Yeah, I mean, it's similar in the

419
00:11:53.870 --> 00:11:54.829
sense that Who Builds Your

420
00:11:54.830 --> 00:11:56.809
Architecture? was asked again,

421
00:11:56.810 --> 00:11:58.669
well, why is it that we don't talk

422
00:11:58.670 --> 00:11:59.539
about the people who build our

423
00:11:59.540 --> 00:12:00.529
architecture, right?

424
00:12:00.530 --> 00:12:02.719
Why is that left out

425
00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:03.919
of the grand narrative?

426
00:12:03.920 --> 00:12:05.209
And this came about because Gulf

427
00:12:05.210 --> 00:12:07.609
Labor had formed this petition

428
00:12:07.610 --> 00:12:09.529
around having the Guggenheim

429
00:12:09.530 --> 00:12:11.419
initiate fair labor practices for

430
00:12:11.420 --> 00:12:13.129
their museum in Abu Dhabi, which was

431
00:12:13.130 --> 00:12:14.719
to be designed by Frank Gehry.

432
00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:16.159
And so it kind of set up this sort

433
00:12:16.160 --> 00:12:18.089
of battle between the Guggenheim

434
00:12:18.090 --> 00:12:19.249
and this group of artists and

435
00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:20.149
scholars asking.

436
00:12:20.150 --> 00:12:21.739
And we were wondering where are the

437
00:12:21.740 --> 00:12:22.879
architects on that list.

438
00:12:22.880 --> 00:12:24.889
Why weren't architects signing

439
00:12:24.890 --> 00:12:26.269
it? If the artists were like, "We

440
00:12:26.270 --> 00:12:27.289
don't want our work shown in the

441
00:12:27.290 --> 00:12:28.429
museum," why aren't architects

442
00:12:28.430 --> 00:12:29.329
saying, "Well, we don't want our

443
00:12:29.330 --> 00:12:31.309
buildings built with forced labor

444
00:12:31.310 --> 00:12:33.199
and people who aren't paid

445
00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:35.119
their wages and live in

446
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:37.639
substandard housing conditions."

447
00:12:37.640 --> 00:12:39.649
And it was interesting because

448
00:12:39.650 --> 00:12:41.059
once we started, the comment we

449
00:12:41.060 --> 00:12:42.319
heard was, "Well, that's not our

450
00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:44.149
contract." That's

451
00:12:44.150 --> 00:12:45.109
between the client and the

452
00:12:45.110 --> 00:12:46.129
contractor.

453
00:12:46.130 --> 00:12:47.253
And the contractor can subcontract,

454
00:12:47.254 --> 00:12:49.039
and they can subcontract, right?

455
00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:51.079
So it's this kind of distribution

456
00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:52.969
of risk, essentially, which

457
00:12:52.970 --> 00:12:54.109
is kind of what you want, so that

458
00:12:54.110 --> 00:12:55.039
you're protected.

459
00:12:55.040 --> 00:12:56.929
And yet, what architects

460
00:12:56.930 --> 00:12:58.467
are preparing their drawings,

461
00:12:58.468 --> 00:13:00.799
whatever it is, and

462
00:13:00.800 --> 00:13:02.269
their studios where they're working

463
00:13:02.270 --> 00:13:03.289
and thinking through all these

464
00:13:03.290 --> 00:13:05.209
details, are somehow going to end

465
00:13:05.210 --> 00:13:07.069
up being communicated to that person

466
00:13:07.070 --> 00:13:09.049
on the job site building.

467
00:13:09.050 --> 00:13:11.149
So there is a kind of flow

468
00:13:11.150 --> 00:13:13.189
of knowledge that

469
00:13:13.190 --> 00:13:14.179
is happening.

470
00:13:14.180 --> 00:13:15.619
Right? So architects are implicated

471
00:13:15.620 --> 00:13:17.329
in that process, whether the legal

472
00:13:17.330 --> 00:13:19.009
framework says so or not.

473
00:13:19.010 --> 00:13:20.659
And we felt precisely for that

474
00:13:20.660 --> 00:13:22.219
reason that architects have to think

475
00:13:22.220 --> 00:13:24.199
about who's out there building their

476
00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.059
building and what kind of obligation

477
00:13:26.060 --> 00:13:27.039
there is to that.

478
00:13:27.040 --> 00:13:28.549
It's an ethical question.

479
00:13:28.550 --> 00:13:30.019
It's an economic question.

480
00:13:30.020 --> 00:13:31.369
It has social implications.

481
00:13:31.370 --> 00:13:32.839
So that's how we started the

482
00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:34.729
project. And part of what we wanted

483
00:13:34.730 --> 00:13:37.129
to do is just show

484
00:13:37.130 --> 00:13:39.109
how that connection is precisely

485
00:13:39.110 --> 00:13:41.539
because it's now so globalized.

486
00:13:41.540 --> 00:13:42.540
The construction

487
00:13:43.640 --> 00:13:45.529
industry's global supply chain is

488
00:13:45.530 --> 00:13:46.429
so enormous.

489
00:13:46.430 --> 00:13:48.319
And it's not like the iPhone,

490
00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:49.759
which you could say, okay, you could

491
00:13:49.760 --> 00:13:51.289
have concerns and pressure Apple

492
00:13:51.290 --> 00:13:53.149
about labor practices

493
00:13:53.150 --> 00:13:55.249
in the factories because the phone

494
00:13:55.250 --> 00:13:56.599
is sitting in your bag or your

495
00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:57.409
pocket.

496
00:13:57.410 --> 00:13:58.879
So you have a direct, tactile

497
00:13:58.880 --> 00:14:00.049
relationship with it.

498
00:14:00.050 --> 00:14:01.219
Buildings are on the other side of

499
00:14:01.220 --> 00:14:03.199
the world, so those

500
00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:04.759
buildings don't move in the same

501
00:14:04.760 --> 00:14:06.079
way. So the question of

502
00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:07.669
accountability is different.

503
00:14:07.670 --> 00:14:08.689
Well, I wonder if I could talk to

504
00:14:08.690 --> 00:14:10.639
you about your book, Negro Building,

505
00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:12.019
which was a few years old at this

506
00:14:12.020 --> 00:14:13.549
point. But this is a book that

507
00:14:13.550 --> 00:14:15.160
traces the history of African

508
00:14:15.161 --> 00:14:17.029
American participation in

509
00:14:17.030 --> 00:14:18.889
World's fairs and in emancipation

510
00:14:18.890 --> 00:14:20.749
exhibitions beginning in the late

511
00:14:20.750 --> 00:14:22.090
19th century moving up

512
00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:24.259
really to the present day because it

513
00:14:24.260 --> 00:14:25.129
kind of looks forward to the

514
00:14:25.130 --> 00:14:26.959
building of the National Museum

515
00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:28.009
of African American History and

516
00:14:28.010 --> 00:14:29.749
Culture. When I saw the title Negro

517
00:14:29.750 --> 00:14:31.219
Building, I expected I was reading--

518
00:14:31.220 --> 00:14:32.599
I was expecting to learn about this

519
00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:33.439
particular history.

520
00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:34.759
It seemed to me to be a book of

521
00:14:34.760 --> 00:14:36.409
really cultural and kind of public

522
00:14:36.410 --> 00:14:37.999
history and expand well beyond that.

523
00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:39.229
And I really enjoyed reading it and

524
00:14:39.230 --> 00:14:40.729
learned a lot. I thought one of the

525
00:14:40.730 --> 00:14:42.469
most important concepts in it was

526
00:14:42.470 --> 00:14:43.999
the concept you use of the counter

527
00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:45.379
public sphere, right?

528
00:14:45.380 --> 00:14:47.059
You're talking about the all the

529
00:14:47.060 --> 00:14:48.919
participation of the people who were

530
00:14:48.920 --> 00:14:50.809
building in these buildings that

531
00:14:50.810 --> 00:14:52.639
were actually called Negro buildings

532
00:14:52.640 --> 00:14:54.289
in these spaces as creating

533
00:14:54.290 --> 00:14:55.519
counter-public spheres.

534
00:14:55.520 --> 00:14:56.599
Can you talk a little bit about that

535
00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:58.609
idea and why it was so useful

536
00:14:58.610 --> 00:14:59.749
for you in the book?

537
00:14:59.750 --> 00:15:02.059
It was a project again that started

538
00:15:02.060 --> 00:15:03.859
with, okay, what is it that we can't

539
00:15:03.860 --> 00:15:05.089
find or we don't know?

540
00:15:05.090 --> 00:15:06.979
And it was initially my

541
00:15:06.980 --> 00:15:08.269
dissertation, and I wanted to write

542
00:15:08.270 --> 00:15:10.009
a history of African American

543
00:15:10.010 --> 00:15:12.199
museums, mostly from the sixties

544
00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:13.549
forward.

545
00:15:13.550 --> 00:15:15.130
And I was interested in how, prior

546
00:15:16.280 --> 00:15:17.479
to the sixties, it was very

547
00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:19.369
difficult for African Americans to

548
00:15:19.370 --> 00:15:21.259
build buildings and that

549
00:15:21.260 --> 00:15:23.209
these new museums were somehow

550
00:15:23.210 --> 00:15:25.849
the emblematic of a representation

551
00:15:25.850 --> 00:15:27.349
of Black history and culture and

552
00:15:27.350 --> 00:15:28.729
space. And I wanted to understand

553
00:15:28.730 --> 00:15:29.920
what that meant. So it was really--

554
00:15:29.921 --> 00:15:31.909
I was going to look at the

555
00:15:31.910 --> 00:15:33.859
DuSable Museum, the Charles Wright,

556
00:15:33.860 --> 00:15:34.879
and then move forward to the

557
00:15:34.880 --> 00:15:36.739
Underground Railroad and kind

558
00:15:36.740 --> 00:15:39.649
of do this sort of more contemporary

559
00:15:39.650 --> 00:15:41.569
analysis of these institution

560
00:15:41.570 --> 00:15:43.369
and then how African Americans were

561
00:15:43.370 --> 00:15:44.359
claiming space. There's one, I

562
00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:45.499
think, in Pittsburgh, in fact.

563
00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:47.689
And so I was really interested.

564
00:15:47.690 --> 00:15:49.279
But then this kind of historian in

565
00:15:49.280 --> 00:15:51.019
me kind of really kicked in, and I

566
00:15:51.020 --> 00:15:53.089
wanted to know-- there must

567
00:15:53.090 --> 00:15:55.369
have been something before then.

568
00:15:55.370 --> 00:15:57.319
But they would not

569
00:15:57.320 --> 00:15:58.399
have been museums.

570
00:15:58.400 --> 00:16:01.069
And then, I just

571
00:16:01.070 --> 00:16:02.070
started looking at World's fairs, and I

572
00:16:02.780 --> 00:16:04.079
found this Negro building.

573
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:05.959
One the name, I'm like, what

574
00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:08.089
in the world is that?

575
00:16:08.090 --> 00:16:11.059
And so I found this one in Atlanta,

576
00:16:11.060 --> 00:16:12.109
and then it occurred to me, of

577
00:16:12.110 --> 00:16:13.669
course, it would be at a fair

578
00:16:13.670 --> 00:16:15.349
because it wasn't permanent.

579
00:16:15.350 --> 00:16:16.175
So you could build the building.

580
00:16:16.176 --> 00:16:18.499
You could have the space, the event,

581
00:16:18.500 --> 00:16:20.299
show the exhibit, but under Jim

582
00:16:20.300 --> 00:16:22.429
Crow, you always had to move on.

583
00:16:22.430 --> 00:16:23.889
And so, then I found another Negro,

584
00:16:23.890 --> 00:16:25.789
and I started finding all of these.

585
00:16:25.790 --> 00:16:27.109
And it was just this amazing

586
00:16:27.110 --> 00:16:28.609
untapped archive.

587
00:16:28.610 --> 00:16:30.949
And people had looked at

588
00:16:30.950 --> 00:16:32.599
the different expositions

589
00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:34.939
separately. A number of people had,

590
00:16:34.940 --> 00:16:36.589
but they had not looked at them as a

591
00:16:36.590 --> 00:16:38.509
kind of serial conversation.

592
00:16:38.510 --> 00:16:40.159
Right? That this was an ongoing

593
00:16:40.160 --> 00:16:41.574
conversation around well-known

594
00:16:42.670 --> 00:16:44.349
figures like Booker T.

595
00:16:44.350 --> 00:16:45.350
Washington, Du Bois. You

596
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:48.699
have A. Philip Randolph showing up.

597
00:16:48.700 --> 00:16:50.349
Mary Church Terrell.

598
00:16:50.350 --> 00:16:53.049
At one point, Ida B. Wells is

599
00:16:53.050 --> 00:16:54.499
involved in a pamphlet for the

600
00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:56.139
Chicago. And then some of the kind

601
00:16:56.140 --> 00:16:57.639
of more secondary minor figures are

602
00:16:57.640 --> 00:16:58.659
really the players who are

603
00:16:58.660 --> 00:17:00.969
constantly staging these expositions

604
00:17:00.970 --> 00:17:02.739
and looking at them as a kind of

605
00:17:02.740 --> 00:17:04.568
counter-public sphere in which the

606
00:17:04.569 --> 00:17:06.879
question of what is constituting

607
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:08.739
post-emancipation, Black

608
00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:10.659
identity, Black culture, and

609
00:17:10.660 --> 00:17:12.429
also an ethos of history that

610
00:17:12.430 --> 00:17:14.559
emerges through people like Du Bois.

611
00:17:14.560 --> 00:17:15.338
Again, Carter G.

612
00:17:15.339 --> 00:17:17.078
Woodson. Well, he was involved in an

613
00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:18.848
exposition when he comes up with

614
00:17:18.849 --> 00:17:20.348
this idea for the Association for

615
00:17:20.349 --> 00:17:22.088
the Study of Negro Life in History.

616
00:17:22.089 --> 00:17:23.739
And so, it was a kind of

617
00:17:23.740 --> 00:17:25.659
expeditionary culture,

618
00:17:25.660 --> 00:17:27.549
a creative milieu that

619
00:17:27.550 --> 00:17:29.149
just had not been identified.

620
00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:30.729
And it leads directly to the

621
00:17:30.730 --> 00:17:32.379
formation of the museum through

622
00:17:32.380 --> 00:17:34.269
Margaret Burroughs in the 1940s

623
00:17:34.270 --> 00:17:36.279
in Chicago, and then she eventually

624
00:17:36.280 --> 00:17:37.280
founds the DuSable  in

625
00:17:38.320 --> 00:17:40.449
Chicago in the 1960s.

626
00:17:40.450 --> 00:17:42.549
One of the things that I enjoyed

627
00:17:42.550 --> 00:17:44.439
reading about here was the World's

628
00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:45.999
Fair in Paris. When you talk about

629
00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:48.279
the fact that in the

630
00:17:48.280 --> 00:17:49.569
space that you were reviewing at

631
00:17:49.570 --> 00:17:50.589
that fair, Booker T.

632
00:17:50.590 --> 00:17:52.089
Washington has an exhibit there.

633
00:17:52.090 --> 00:17:53.619
And then right alongside it, W.E.B.

634
00:17:53.620 --> 00:17:54.849
Du Bois, right?

635
00:17:54.850 --> 00:17:56.799
And there are very different goals

636
00:17:56.800 --> 00:17:57.800
for what African American

637
00:17:58.570 --> 00:17:59.919
participation in American life

638
00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:00.909
should be at the time. But there

639
00:18:00.910 --> 00:18:03.009
they are so that these spaces

640
00:18:03.010 --> 00:18:04.959
that were carved out show

641
00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:06.080
that it really is a public sphere.

642
00:18:06.081 --> 00:18:07.119
It's a broad public sphere.

643
00:18:07.120 --> 00:18:08.799
It's not kind of some monolithic

644
00:18:08.800 --> 00:18:09.849
African American culture at the

645
00:18:09.850 --> 00:18:10.539
time.

646
00:18:10.540 --> 00:18:12.639
Yeah, no, it was highly contested.

647
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:13.539
And also class.

648
00:18:13.540 --> 00:18:14.529
I mean, that's part of what I'm

649
00:18:14.530 --> 00:18:16.059
trying to say is that you have an

650
00:18:16.060 --> 00:18:18.489
elite emerging clearly upper-middle

651
00:18:18.490 --> 00:18:20.709
class that is educated,

652
00:18:20.710 --> 00:18:22.599
that are debating these ideas

653
00:18:22.600 --> 00:18:24.549
in relationship to a larger

654
00:18:24.550 --> 00:18:26.169
Black population that eventually

655
00:18:26.170 --> 00:18:28.389
will urbanize, will move northward

656
00:18:28.390 --> 00:18:30.879
into places like Pittsburgh

657
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.789
and Chicago and New York.

658
00:18:33.790 --> 00:18:35.589
But it was a robust debate.

659
00:18:35.590 --> 00:18:37.539
And part of what I was interested in

660
00:18:37.540 --> 00:18:39.489
was the sort of spatial and urban,

661
00:18:39.490 --> 00:18:40.659
particularly on the Paris

662
00:18:40.660 --> 00:18:41.559
Exposition.

663
00:18:41.560 --> 00:18:42.579
Shawn Michelle Smith has done an

664
00:18:42.580 --> 00:18:43.654
amazing book about the photographs.

665
00:18:43.655 --> 00:18:45.489
Also Deborah Willis and

666
00:18:45.490 --> 00:18:47.139
David Levering Lewis did an amazing

667
00:18:47.140 --> 00:18:48.249
book about the photographs.

668
00:18:48.250 --> 00:18:50.169
But I think my training as

669
00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:51.819
an architect, I wanted to think

670
00:18:51.820 --> 00:18:54.489
spatially about this issue.

671
00:18:54.490 --> 00:18:56.259
Even the work on the fairs by Robert

672
00:18:56.260 --> 00:18:57.459
Rydell, I mean, it was kind of the

673
00:18:57.460 --> 00:18:59.049
model of how I was thinking about a

674
00:18:59.050 --> 00:19:01.599
lot of this stuff. I think Bob's

675
00:19:01.600 --> 00:19:03.489
histories are phenomenal in terms

676
00:19:03.490 --> 00:19:05.139
of how he's linking them with nation

677
00:19:05.140 --> 00:19:06.529
formation and questions around race,

678
00:19:06.530 --> 00:19:08.619
but they tend to stay inside

679
00:19:08.620 --> 00:19:10.299
the fairgrounds. And what I was

680
00:19:10.300 --> 00:19:11.619
trying to do is think spatially

681
00:19:11.620 --> 00:19:13.269
about, okay, you have this fear, but

682
00:19:13.270 --> 00:19:14.619
it's operating within an urban

683
00:19:14.620 --> 00:19:16.457
milieu where these kind of

684
00:19:16.458 --> 00:19:19.209
questions of immigration--

685
00:19:19.210 --> 00:19:20.840
you have questions of

686
00:19:21.910 --> 00:19:23.919
race, and an emerging segregation

687
00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:25.899
under Jim Crow are taking place.

688
00:19:25.900 --> 00:19:28.239
And how does the fairground reflect

689
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:30.519
or repress those emerging

690
00:19:30.520 --> 00:19:31.839
struggles and anxieties?

691
00:19:31.840 --> 00:19:33.789
And that's really what I was

692
00:19:33.790 --> 00:19:34.599
also trying to show.

693
00:19:34.600 --> 00:19:36.339
So that's why the urban histories

694
00:19:36.340 --> 00:19:37.809
become significant, first in

695
00:19:37.810 --> 00:19:39.789
Atlanta, and then we start

696
00:19:39.790 --> 00:19:41.079
to see how it moves north.

697
00:19:41.080 --> 00:19:42.369
We see Washington, D.C.,

698
00:19:42.370 --> 00:19:44.259
Philadelphia, and then Chicago,

699
00:19:44.260 --> 00:19:45.999
Detroit, and New York become the

700
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:47.859
sort of main protagonists in

701
00:19:47.860 --> 00:19:49.059
the later narratives.

702
00:19:49.060 --> 00:19:50.319
Yeah, the Detroit narrative, in

703
00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:51.759
particular, is an exciting one to

704
00:19:51.760 --> 00:19:52.929
me. I mean, that museum-- I've been

705
00:19:52.930 --> 00:19:55.239
to the new Charles Wright Museum

706
00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:57.639
there but did not remember

707
00:19:57.640 --> 00:19:59.499
the story of the mobile museum

708
00:19:59.500 --> 00:20:01.569
that preceded what is now there.

709
00:20:01.570 --> 00:20:03.099
It's a great story, in part because

710
00:20:03.100 --> 00:20:04.959
of how much impact that mobile

711
00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:07.059
museum had on the people that

712
00:20:07.060 --> 00:20:08.919
saw it, on the African American

713
00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:10.299
communities there in Detroit and

714
00:20:10.300 --> 00:20:11.199
surrounding areas.

715
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:12.579
Can you just talk a little bit about

716
00:20:12.580 --> 00:20:13.989
the transformation of the Mobile

717
00:20:13.990 --> 00:20:15.819
Museum into the African American

718
00:20:15.820 --> 00:20:16.659
Museum in Detroit?

719
00:20:16.660 --> 00:20:18.609
That museum, in particular,

720
00:20:18.610 --> 00:20:19.569
they were very generous.

721
00:20:19.570 --> 00:20:21.099
They let me come in and look at

722
00:20:21.100 --> 00:20:23.109
their archives for several

723
00:20:23.110 --> 00:20:25.239
weeks and really go through Wright's

724
00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:27.519
papers and the kind of formation

725
00:20:27.520 --> 00:20:28.839
of the institution.

726
00:20:28.840 --> 00:20:30.309
And Wright had been directly

727
00:20:30.310 --> 00:20:31.809
involved in civil rights struggle in

728
00:20:31.810 --> 00:20:32.590
the South. He was from Dothan,

729
00:20:32.591 --> 00:20:33.549
Alabama.

730
00:20:33.550 --> 00:20:35.619
He had gone down to

731
00:20:35.620 --> 00:20:37.599
the march across the Edmund Pettus

732
00:20:37.600 --> 00:20:39.728
Bridge. Right? So he was directly--

733
00:20:39.729 --> 00:20:39.938
A doctor. Yeah.

734
00:20:39.939 --> 00:20:41.829
A physician. Yeah. To take care

735
00:20:41.830 --> 00:20:43.719
of the people who had been attacked.

736
00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:45.594
So he was directly engaged in

737
00:20:45.595 --> 00:20:47.499
what was going on in the

738
00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:48.549
south.

739
00:20:48.550 --> 00:20:50.079
And then, also as a physician, he

740
00:20:50.080 --> 00:20:51.459
worked in Detroit in a very

741
00:20:51.460 --> 00:20:52.539
segregated environment, in

742
00:20:52.540 --> 00:20:54.179
segregated hospitals.

743
00:20:54.180 --> 00:20:55.629
And so, for him, this kind of

744
00:20:55.630 --> 00:20:58.539
question of knowing history

745
00:20:58.540 --> 00:21:00.729
was very much rooted

746
00:21:00.730 --> 00:21:02.559
in a necessity for beginning

747
00:21:02.560 --> 00:21:04.449
to be able to imagine,

748
00:21:04.450 --> 00:21:06.309
like, what a future

749
00:21:06.310 --> 00:21:08.169
America would be like.

750
00:21:08.170 --> 00:21:09.939
Like you just said, this has to be--

751
00:21:09.940 --> 00:21:11.529
precisely because Black history had

752
00:21:11.530 --> 00:21:12.369
been excluded.

753
00:21:12.370 --> 00:21:14.259
And he felt like it was a process

754
00:21:14.260 --> 00:21:16.179
that the Black community had to make

755
00:21:16.180 --> 00:21:17.079
itself. He didn't want the

756
00:21:17.080 --> 00:21:18.309
government doing it, which is why he

757
00:21:18.310 --> 00:21:19.929
fought against a national museum at

758
00:21:19.930 --> 00:21:21.159
the time.

759
00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:22.689
And so it was a very kind of

760
00:21:22.690 --> 00:21:24.159
bottom-up effort.

761
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.019
And Detroit, because of how it

762
00:21:26.020 --> 00:21:27.819
had expanded, I mean, it's a huge

763
00:21:27.820 --> 00:21:29.499
city. I mean, I used it for my

764
00:21:29.500 --> 00:21:31.599
design studio in the fall,

765
00:21:31.600 --> 00:21:33.429
and I didn't realize that

766
00:21:33.430 --> 00:21:35.439
Detroit is like having

767
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:36.716
Manhattan, Boston, and

768
00:21:37.870 --> 00:21:39.999
Chicago all together.

769
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:40.929
It's enormous. I mean, it's an

770
00:21:40.930 --> 00:21:41.930
enormous footprint.

771
00:21:42.700 --> 00:21:44.769
And so, like, how do you get--

772
00:21:44.770 --> 00:21:46.299
how do you reach populations in a

773
00:21:46.300 --> 00:21:48.129
city that's that big

774
00:21:48.130 --> 00:21:49.839
where populations are dispersed?

775
00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:51.369
And so, I thought it was a very

776
00:21:51.370 --> 00:21:53.409
clever idea to make this mobile

777
00:21:53.410 --> 00:21:55.569
museum, to have this exhibition

778
00:21:55.570 --> 00:21:56.570
that then could kind of navigate

779
00:21:58.150 --> 00:21:59.533
a kind of complex terrain.

780
00:21:59.534 --> 00:22:00.838
In the book, I

781
00:22:01.900 --> 00:22:03.999
talk about how questions

782
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.729
around segregation, blockbusting,

783
00:22:06.730 --> 00:22:08.799
how the contentious

784
00:22:08.800 --> 00:22:10.719
real estate, the expansion

785
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:12.789
of African Americans into

786
00:22:12.790 --> 00:22:15.219
Detroit was explosive, in fact.

787
00:22:15.220 --> 00:22:17.109
In reading the way in

788
00:22:17.110 --> 00:22:18.459
which the mobile museum - it was in

789
00:22:18.460 --> 00:22:20.709
a trailer in the beginning -

790
00:22:20.710 --> 00:22:22.869
became the permanent structure

791
00:22:22.870 --> 00:22:24.309
that it currently is.

792
00:22:24.310 --> 00:22:26.559
I couldn't help but feel like

793
00:22:26.560 --> 00:22:29.079
you thought that something was lost.

794
00:22:29.080 --> 00:22:30.519
Well, in their own words, there was

795
00:22:30.520 --> 00:22:32.079
a gentleman who was sitting out in

796
00:22:32.080 --> 00:22:33.699
front of the museum. I remember this

797
00:22:33.700 --> 00:22:35.619
was from a newspaper when

798
00:22:35.620 --> 00:22:37.479
the final institution

799
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:38.649
opened. It finally opened up in a

800
00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:39.759
new building. And I can't remember

801
00:22:39.760 --> 00:22:40.989
whether it was a second building or

802
00:22:40.990 --> 00:22:42.399
then the third building that they

803
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:43.809
were in. And he was just like

804
00:22:43.810 --> 00:22:44.709
something was lost.

805
00:22:44.710 --> 00:22:46.179
Like he felt like it had lost a

806
00:22:46.180 --> 00:22:47.559
connection to the people.

807
00:22:47.560 --> 00:22:48.999
And he specifically said that the

808
00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:51.159
Black nationalist ethos was gone,

809
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:53.049
that the formation of it as

810
00:22:53.050 --> 00:22:55.179
a more traditional museum

811
00:22:55.180 --> 00:22:57.009
framework, the board,

812
00:22:57.010 --> 00:22:58.959
conservators, that

813
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:00.699
this wasn't a step forward, that it

814
00:23:00.700 --> 00:23:02.769
was somehow now disconnected from

815
00:23:02.770 --> 00:23:04.719
the people that it was attempting

816
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:06.789
to serve by moving

817
00:23:06.790 --> 00:23:08.889
stealthily through the city.

818
00:23:08.890 --> 00:23:11.289
And I thought that was a powerful

819
00:23:11.290 --> 00:23:12.069
statement.

820
00:23:12.070 --> 00:23:13.899
And, in part of what I wanted to do,

821
00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:15.339
I think in the book, particularly

822
00:23:15.340 --> 00:23:16.959
since the African American Museum

823
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:19.059
was going to open, was to recognize

824
00:23:19.060 --> 00:23:20.060
that the history of

825
00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:22.719
these institutions were political.

826
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:24.639
I mean, it was really about

827
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.820
debating over like

828
00:23:26.890 --> 00:23:28.209
how do we deal with racial

829
00:23:28.210 --> 00:23:30.129
inequality, social injustice

830
00:23:30.130 --> 00:23:31.055
within the United States.

831
00:23:31.056 --> 00:23:32.919
And that these institutions somehow

832
00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:34.929
played a role as these public

833
00:23:34.930 --> 00:23:36.789
spaces to debate those issues

834
00:23:36.790 --> 00:23:38.889
and not just show people

835
00:23:38.890 --> 00:23:40.749
history or show

836
00:23:40.750 --> 00:23:42.729
artworks. It was to kind

837
00:23:42.730 --> 00:23:44.679
of galvanize and

838
00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:46.629
to engage with very thorny

839
00:23:46.630 --> 00:23:47.859
questions.

840
00:23:47.860 --> 00:23:50.049
This question about kind of  moving

841
00:23:50.050 --> 00:23:51.669
from what are temporary spaces to a

842
00:23:51.670 --> 00:23:53.769
permanent space brings

843
00:23:53.770 --> 00:23:55.029
us, I think, right up to the new

844
00:23:55.030 --> 00:23:56.889
museum in Washington, D.C.

845
00:23:56.890 --> 00:23:58.509
It opened in September. It's wildly

846
00:23:58.510 --> 00:23:59.799
popular. Huge, right?

847
00:23:59.800 --> 00:24:01.359
I mean, you talk about it's kind of

848
00:24:01.360 --> 00:24:03.279
like so we go from a trailer to

849
00:24:03.280 --> 00:24:04.119
a museum in Detroit.

850
00:24:04.120 --> 00:24:06.459
Now it's 300,000 square feet in D.C.

851
00:24:06.460 --> 00:24:08.409
Can a museum like that have

852
00:24:08.410 --> 00:24:10.599
the same kind of

853
00:24:10.600 --> 00:24:12.549
connection and impact that

854
00:24:12.550 --> 00:24:14.469
something like this mobile

855
00:24:14.470 --> 00:24:15.519
museum in Detroit did?

856
00:24:15.520 --> 00:24:17.019
Or is it doing something different?

857
00:24:17.020 --> 00:24:18.879
What should we expect from it

858
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:20.739
with regard to your history

859
00:24:20.740 --> 00:24:21.639
and the kind of history that you

860
00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:23.349
write about in Negro Building?

861
00:24:23.350 --> 00:24:24.819
I mean, I think the fact that you

862
00:24:24.820 --> 00:24:25.820
can't get a ticket, it's

863
00:24:27.850 --> 00:24:28.850
still

864
00:24:30.370 --> 00:24:31.989
doing its work somehow.

865
00:24:31.990 --> 00:24:33.699
And I write about the history of the

866
00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:35.409
museum, that museum in Negro

867
00:24:35.410 --> 00:24:36.939
Building, which is how I ended up

868
00:24:36.940 --> 00:24:38.229
writing Begin With the Past.

869
00:24:38.230 --> 00:24:40.149
I came into the project, Begin With

870
00:24:40.150 --> 00:24:42.549
the Past, as

871
00:24:42.550 --> 00:24:43.749
somebody who had looked at that

872
00:24:43.750 --> 00:24:45.339
history before, but also as an

873
00:24:45.340 --> 00:24:46.479
architect who had worked on the

874
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:47.349
design of the museum.

875
00:24:47.350 --> 00:24:48.969
So I kind of knew what the building

876
00:24:48.970 --> 00:24:50.649
was, and I also knew the history.

877
00:24:50.650 --> 00:24:52.209
And so, I think that's why they

878
00:24:52.210 --> 00:24:53.559
wanted to do a single-author book

879
00:24:53.560 --> 00:24:55.389
about the building.

880
00:24:55.390 --> 00:24:56.979
But the struggle for that museum

881
00:24:56.980 --> 00:24:58.989
runs exactly parallel

882
00:24:58.990 --> 00:25:00.609
to the history that I was covering

883
00:25:00.610 --> 00:25:02.049
about this kind of struggle to claim

884
00:25:02.050 --> 00:25:04.089
space within this larger national

885
00:25:04.090 --> 00:25:05.258
arena in the case of that museum.

886
00:25:05.259 --> 00:25:07.839
Every time it was thwarted.

887
00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:09.249
Every time they kept trying to do

888
00:25:09.250 --> 00:25:10.989
something, it was thwarted.

889
00:25:10.990 --> 00:25:11.439
It was a hundred years old, right?

890
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.059
Yeah. It was a hundred-year effort

891
00:25:13.060 --> 00:25:15.369
to basically acknowledge

892
00:25:15.370 --> 00:25:16.209
the contributions of

893
00:25:16.210 --> 00:25:18.369
African-Americans to

894
00:25:18.370 --> 00:25:19.419
the nation. I mean, that was the

895
00:25:19.420 --> 00:25:20.420
point.

896
00:25:21.700 --> 00:25:23.799
By the 1980s,

897
00:25:23.800 --> 00:25:25.269
there was this, well, this might

898
00:25:25.270 --> 00:25:26.709
happen.

899
00:25:26.710 --> 00:25:28.509
But one of the early questions was,

900
00:25:28.510 --> 00:25:30.309
well, the Smithsonian as an

901
00:25:30.310 --> 00:25:31.857
institution didn't feel that African

902
00:25:31.858 --> 00:25:32.858
American

903
00:25:34.630 --> 00:25:36.759
material culture was

904
00:25:36.760 --> 00:25:38.229
worth collecting.

905
00:25:38.230 --> 00:25:39.459
So there was no collection.

906
00:25:39.460 --> 00:25:40.929
So the challenge of the building--

907
00:25:40.930 --> 00:25:43.059
of doing the museum, wasn't just

908
00:25:43.060 --> 00:25:44.008
you make a building.

909
00:25:44.009 --> 00:25:45.699
You had to basically build a

910
00:25:45.700 --> 00:25:47.079
collection, which was not true for

911
00:25:47.080 --> 00:25:47.889
the American Indians.

912
00:25:47.890 --> 00:25:49.599
Because the Smithsonian's early

913
00:25:49.600 --> 00:25:51.759
project, when it started

914
00:25:51.760 --> 00:25:53.619
in the mid-19th century, was to

915
00:25:53.620 --> 00:25:55.779
collect everything as the country

916
00:25:55.780 --> 00:25:58.089
moved basically westward.

917
00:25:58.090 --> 00:26:00.189
It was absorbing and studying

918
00:26:00.190 --> 00:26:01.809
everything about the indigenous

919
00:26:01.810 --> 00:26:03.009
populations.

920
00:26:03.010 --> 00:26:04.629
Right? And then that had its own

921
00:26:04.630 --> 00:26:06.009
kind of problematic-- to basically

922
00:26:06.010 --> 00:26:07.929
render them the primitive

923
00:26:07.930 --> 00:26:09.669
and the emergent sense of a white

924
00:26:09.670 --> 00:26:11.679
America as being the vanguard.

925
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:13.809
So that museum had a collection

926
00:26:13.810 --> 00:26:15.699
that not only had to show, but it

927
00:26:15.700 --> 00:26:17.709
had to redo-- it had to disperse.

928
00:26:17.710 --> 00:26:18.879
It had to give back to those

929
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:20.079
populations. But the African

930
00:26:20.080 --> 00:26:21.339
American Museum, I think, posed

931
00:26:21.340 --> 00:26:22.719
another set of problems precisely

932
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:24.339
because there was no collection.

933
00:26:24.340 --> 00:26:26.349
So what I think is remarkable about

934
00:26:26.350 --> 00:26:28.269
that building and about the museum

935
00:26:28.270 --> 00:26:30.369
is not only this extraordinarily

936
00:26:30.370 --> 00:26:32.379
elegant and beautiful building

937
00:26:32.380 --> 00:26:33.909
but the fact that they had to build

938
00:26:33.910 --> 00:26:35.049
this collection. And they had to

939
00:26:35.050 --> 00:26:37.269
think about, like,

940
00:26:37.270 --> 00:26:39.159
how do we tell this American

941
00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:40.954
history, one that hadn't been told

942
00:26:40.955 --> 00:26:42.929
in a way that gets at all

943
00:26:42.930 --> 00:26:44.129
of these thorny questions.

944
00:26:44.130 --> 00:26:45.359
And that's why I think it's

945
00:26:45.360 --> 00:26:47.249
successful. But it built on

946
00:26:47.250 --> 00:26:49.469
all of these earlier discussions,

947
00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:50.969
and it had been something since the

948
00:26:50.970 --> 00:26:52.949
eighties. Mickey Leland and then

949
00:26:52.950 --> 00:26:54.599
John Lewis had been trying to get

950
00:26:54.600 --> 00:26:55.788
this thing funded for,

951
00:26:56.940 --> 00:26:58.709
I mean, for decades, essentially.

952
00:26:58.710 --> 00:27:00.389
Well, you also, along with writing

953
00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:01.949
about the museum, you partnered with

954
00:27:01.950 --> 00:27:03.869
an architecture firm to enter

955
00:27:03.870 --> 00:27:05.189
a design. You were one of six firms

956
00:27:05.190 --> 00:27:07.079
that entered the final list for

957
00:27:07.080 --> 00:27:08.099
designing the museum.

958
00:27:08.100 --> 00:27:09.539
Can you talk a little bit about how

959
00:27:09.540 --> 00:27:11.639
your work as a

960
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:13.079
historian, as a critic, and as a

961
00:27:13.080 --> 00:27:14.999
writer influenced your design for

962
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:16.169
the museum?

963
00:27:16.170 --> 00:27:17.789
Trained as an architect, I've always

964
00:27:17.790 --> 00:27:19.769
sort of had a parallel practice with

965
00:27:19.770 --> 00:27:20.699
my scholarship.

966
00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:23.039
I never really realized

967
00:27:23.040 --> 00:27:24.629
how much they actually inform one

968
00:27:24.630 --> 00:27:26.519
another. And so with the

969
00:27:26.520 --> 00:27:28.439
African American Museum, I

970
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:30.509
was very interested in

971
00:27:30.510 --> 00:27:32.489
that project and had been following

972
00:27:32.490 --> 00:27:33.749
it because I had written about it.

973
00:27:33.750 --> 00:27:35.279
And my uncle called me up one day

974
00:27:35.280 --> 00:27:36.359
and said, "I hear they're trying to

975
00:27:36.360 --> 00:27:38.609
get architects to do this big museum

976
00:27:38.610 --> 00:27:39.839
up in Washington, D.C.

977
00:27:39.840 --> 00:27:40.979
You should be involved." And I

978
00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:42.689
thought, "He's right." And I started

979
00:27:42.690 --> 00:27:44.639
to think about people who I thought

980
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:46.799
could really engage, colleagues

981
00:27:46.800 --> 00:27:47.729
that I thought could engage that

982
00:27:47.730 --> 00:27:49.049
project. And I thought of Diller,

983
00:27:49.050 --> 00:27:51.269
Scofidio, Renfro. Liz Diller.

984
00:27:51.270 --> 00:27:52.739
And I thought, "God, Liz, it would

985
00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:54.749
be amazing, and Rick

986
00:27:54.750 --> 00:27:56.249
and Charles, too, to work with." So

987
00:27:56.250 --> 00:27:58.049
I sent Liz an email.

988
00:27:58.050 --> 00:27:59.219
We had a back-and-forth, and

989
00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:00.689
apparently it had come up on their

990
00:28:00.690 --> 00:28:02.429
radar as well. So they said, "Okay,

991
00:28:02.430 --> 00:28:03.209
let's collaborate.

992
00:28:03.210 --> 00:28:04.799
Let's try to put together a team."

993
00:28:04.800 --> 00:28:05.879
And we did.

994
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.799
And it was really remarkable, the

995
00:28:07.800 --> 00:28:09.629
conversations that we had about--

996
00:28:09.630 --> 00:28:11.849
we had this program, which was huge,

997
00:28:11.850 --> 00:28:13.709
multi-volume. We didn't have

998
00:28:13.710 --> 00:28:14.669
much time to design.

999
00:28:14.670 --> 00:28:16.919
It was a really fast project.

1000
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:18.629
But to sort of think about how do

1001
00:28:18.630 --> 00:28:20.969
you represent and display a very

1002
00:28:20.970 --> 00:28:23.159
difficult history, a troublesome

1003
00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:25.409
history, a violent history,

1004
00:28:25.410 --> 00:28:27.309
a liberatory, celebratory.

1005
00:28:28.650 --> 00:28:29.999
It just raised a lot of-- and we had

1006
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:30.779
an amazing team.

1007
00:28:30.780 --> 00:28:32.369
I mean, we had really great

1008
00:28:32.370 --> 00:28:33.419
conversations.

1009
00:28:33.420 --> 00:28:35.909
And I was really

1010
00:28:35.910 --> 00:28:37.739
happy with sort of

1011
00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:39.629
what we presented in the end.

1012
00:28:39.630 --> 00:28:41.249
And I think there are aspects of

1013
00:28:41.250 --> 00:28:43.139
what we thought the institution

1014
00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:44.609
should be that are embodied also in

1015
00:28:44.610 --> 00:28:45.599
the design that won.

1016
00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:47.279
And I think, in the end, they picked

1017
00:28:47.280 --> 00:28:48.179
a really great team.

1018
00:28:48.180 --> 00:28:49.889
David Adjaye, Phil Freelon, the late

1019
00:28:49.890 --> 00:28:50.890
Max Bond. And

1020
00:28:51.850 --> 00:28:53.339
I think it was a really great team

1021
00:28:53.340 --> 00:28:54.899
for the museum in terms of really

1022
00:28:54.900 --> 00:28:56.099
getting it through and getting it

1023
00:28:56.100 --> 00:28:57.088
done.

1024
00:28:57.089 --> 00:28:57.929
Yeah. One of the things I thought

1025
00:28:57.930 --> 00:28:59.369
was interesting that connected, in a

1026
00:28:59.370 --> 00:29:01.199
way, your design with

1027
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.059
David Adjaye's design, which one is

1028
00:29:03.060 --> 00:29:05.039
that both of you, in different ways,

1029
00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:06.749
were reacting against the white

1030
00:29:06.750 --> 00:29:08.249
marble look that were there.

1031
00:29:08.250 --> 00:29:10.079
Yours was kind of a cloud-like

1032
00:29:10.080 --> 00:29:11.609
dematerializing it.

1033
00:29:11.610 --> 00:29:12.929
His had a different-- has a very

1034
00:29:12.930 --> 00:29:13.979
different color and a different look

1035
00:29:13.980 --> 00:29:14.699
to it as well.

1036
00:29:14.700 --> 00:29:16.109
Yeah. I mean, I think there was a

1037
00:29:16.110 --> 00:29:18.089
question of the abstraction and

1038
00:29:18.090 --> 00:29:20.189
recognizing that there

1039
00:29:20.190 --> 00:29:22.019
was already a kind of palette

1040
00:29:22.020 --> 00:29:24.012
of moves, of

1041
00:29:24.013 --> 00:29:25.013
representations

1042
00:29:26.670 --> 00:29:28.619
of what

1043
00:29:28.620 --> 00:29:30.089
a museum should be along the

1044
00:29:30.090 --> 00:29:30.899
National Mall.

1045
00:29:30.900 --> 00:29:31.689
I mean, you get the Hirshhorn.

1046
00:29:31.690 --> 00:29:33.989
This Gordon Bunshaft building,

1047
00:29:33.990 --> 00:29:36.419
SOM, that kind of breaks with

1048
00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:37.409
that.

1049
00:29:37.410 --> 00:29:38.759
But I think these kind of white

1050
00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:40.259
marble sitting on a pedestal--

1051
00:29:41.790 --> 00:29:43.619
and I think the winning

1052
00:29:43.620 --> 00:29:45.449
design really gives it an

1053
00:29:45.450 --> 00:29:47.279
interesting presence in

1054
00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:48.299
a way.

1055
00:29:48.300 --> 00:29:49.300
And I think David

1056
00:29:50.520 --> 00:29:52.649
and Phil went a step further by

1057
00:29:52.650 --> 00:29:54.629
really not just

1058
00:29:54.630 --> 00:29:56.519
dematerializing the white box but

1059
00:29:56.520 --> 00:29:57.520
turning it brown.

1060
00:29:58.410 --> 00:29:59.969
And I think it was a response Lonnie

1061
00:29:59.970 --> 00:30:00.910
Bunch always talks about.

1062
00:30:00.911 --> 00:30:02.909
What he wanted was a dark

1063
00:30:02.910 --> 00:30:03.899
presence on the mall.

1064
00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:04.879
And I think it has that.

1065
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:07.349
And has this stunning-- I

1066
00:30:07.350 --> 00:30:09.149
mean, I lived in Washington last

1067
00:30:09.150 --> 00:30:10.709
year. I was finishing up the book,

1068
00:30:10.710 --> 00:30:12.329
and I would run in the mornings on

1069
00:30:12.330 --> 00:30:13.199
the National Mall.

1070
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:15.029
And it has amazing kind

1071
00:30:15.030 --> 00:30:17.009
of colorations depending

1072
00:30:17.010 --> 00:30:18.299
on the light.

1073
00:30:18.300 --> 00:30:19.300
And it really has

1074
00:30:20.140 --> 00:30:21.929
very interesting changing face.

1075
00:30:21.930 --> 00:30:23.819
Yeah. Some of the photos in your

1076
00:30:23.820 --> 00:30:24.809
book capture that a little bit.

1077
00:30:24.810 --> 00:30:25.799
It can be golden.

1078
00:30:25.800 --> 00:30:27.389
It can be kind of a dark brown.

1079
00:30:27.390 --> 00:30:28.169
It can be-- I mean, it really--

1080
00:30:28.170 --> 00:30:30.029
yeah. It's a beautiful material that

1081
00:30:30.030 --> 00:30:30.569
can do all this.

1082
00:30:30.570 --> 00:30:31.709
Yeah, I think Alan Karchmer, who

1083
00:30:31.710 --> 00:30:33.329
took those images, really sort of

1084
00:30:33.330 --> 00:30:34.800
captured the beauty of that building

1085
00:30:36.070 --> 00:30:37.709
and those sensibilities.

1086
00:30:37.710 --> 00:30:39.449
And it's a huge-- it's a huge

1087
00:30:39.450 --> 00:30:40.979
project. I mean, it's an enormous

1088
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:43.079
building. But I think the detail and

1089
00:30:43.080 --> 00:30:44.518
yeah. I mean, I want to commend both

1090
00:30:45.660 --> 00:30:47.549
David and Phil for doing, I think,

1091
00:30:47.550 --> 00:30:49.619
a stunning project that really

1092
00:30:49.620 --> 00:30:51.629
has longevity and will really

1093
00:30:51.630 --> 00:30:53.669
be impactful to many, many people's

1094
00:30:53.670 --> 00:30:54.899
lives and experiences.

1095
00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:56.759
Yeah. In reading your book

1096
00:30:56.760 --> 00:30:57.899
on the museum, one of the things

1097
00:30:57.900 --> 00:30:59.369
that kind of like brought that

1098
00:30:59.370 --> 00:31:01.739
brand-new building into conversation

1099
00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:02.969
with all the work that you had done

1100
00:31:02.970 --> 00:31:04.949
previously for me was looking at the

1101
00:31:04.950 --> 00:31:06.689
original mission statement of the

1102
00:31:06.690 --> 00:31:07.739
building and thinking about the

1103
00:31:07.740 --> 00:31:08.941
first two points of

1104
00:31:08.942 --> 00:31:08.942
what was a four-point mission statement. The first one was to celebrate
African

1105
00:31:08.943 --> 00:31:08.943
American culture and history. The second one, and which was stated as
equally important, was to celebrate African

1106
00:31:08.944 --> 00:31:08.944
American culture as history as part of American culture and history. And
those two things, which don't to me-- they're separate. They're connected.

1107
00:31:08.945 --> 00:31:08.945
They're separate. It brought back to me all of the kind of complexity of
the representation that African

1108
00:31:08.946 --> 00:31:10.479
American experience that you had discussed all the way through your book.

1109
00:31:35.010 --> 00:31:37.109
Yeah, I think that this idea

1110
00:31:37.110 --> 00:31:38.699
that looking at this history is

1111
00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:39.929
going to tell you something about

1112
00:31:39.930 --> 00:31:41.319
America.

1113
00:31:41.320 --> 00:31:43.439
And I love the way James

1114
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:45.389
Baldwin, who is at a

1115
00:31:45.390 --> 00:31:47.039
panel in the 1960s. Charles Wright

1116
00:31:47.040 --> 00:31:48.449
was there. Margaret Burroughs was

1117
00:31:48.450 --> 00:31:49.649
not. Her husband was there.

1118
00:31:49.650 --> 00:31:51.449
It was a hearing for a museum.

1119
00:31:51.450 --> 00:31:52.889
I think it was called the Negro

1120
00:31:52.890 --> 00:31:54.419
Commission, which was basically

1121
00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:56.429
formed to think through

1122
00:31:56.430 --> 00:31:57.329
whether or not there would be a

1123
00:31:57.330 --> 00:31:58.829
national museum. And James Baldwin

1124
00:31:58.830 --> 00:32:00.419
comes, and Betty Shabazz is sitting

1125
00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:01.499
there, Malcolm X's wife, and he

1126
00:32:01.500 --> 00:32:02.699
says, "You know, there's something

1127
00:32:02.700 --> 00:32:04.679
about the truth of America that

1128
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:07.289
frightens White Americans." And

1129
00:32:07.290 --> 00:32:08.429
I love that quote.

1130
00:32:08.430 --> 00:32:10.139
It's a Negro building.

1131
00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:12.209
And I always sort of thought about

1132
00:32:12.210 --> 00:32:14.249
that, like, yeah, this is

1133
00:32:14.250 --> 00:32:15.809
American history.

1134
00:32:15.810 --> 00:32:17.999
The enslaved that built

1135
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.069
and maintained University

1136
00:32:20.070 --> 00:32:21.659
of Virginia. That is American

1137
00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:23.219
history. And you cannot whitewash

1138
00:32:23.220 --> 00:32:25.169
it. You cannot just

1139
00:32:25.170 --> 00:32:26.759
say the gardens that exist behind

1140
00:32:26.760 --> 00:32:28.709
the pavilions at UVA are these

1141
00:32:28.710 --> 00:32:29.849
ornamental gardens that would have

1142
00:32:29.850 --> 00:32:30.929
been enjoyed. No, they were work

1143
00:32:30.930 --> 00:32:31.949
yards.

1144
00:32:31.950 --> 00:32:33.125
They were work yards

1145
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.679
where property of

1146
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:38.887
the people that ran the university.

1147
00:32:38.888 --> 00:32:40.254
They made the ham.

1148
00:32:40.255 --> 00:32:41.254
They washed the clothes.

1149
00:32:41.255 --> 00:32:42.255
They grew

1150
00:32:44.310 --> 00:32:45.899
the food.

1151
00:32:45.900 --> 00:32:47.729
And that is a very difficult history

1152
00:32:47.730 --> 00:32:49.739
because I think it runs counter to

1153
00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:51.809
the narrative of

1154
00:32:51.810 --> 00:32:53.489
how the nation was constituted, that

1155
00:32:53.490 --> 00:32:55.189
all men are created equal.

1156
00:32:55.190 --> 00:32:56.849
Right? And that, again, goes back to

1157
00:32:56.850 --> 00:32:59.069
enlightenment philosophy and

1158
00:32:59.070 --> 00:33:00.869
the challenge that the slave trade

1159
00:33:00.870 --> 00:33:02.759
posed to those fundamental

1160
00:33:02.760 --> 00:33:04.402
beliefs around that,

1161
00:33:05.610 --> 00:33:07.499
in nature, we are all

1162
00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:09.359
born equal. And yet, there was a

1163
00:33:09.360 --> 00:33:11.279
rationalization of

1164
00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:13.619
enslavement, of the ability to own.

1165
00:33:13.620 --> 00:33:15.179
The fundamental undermining of--

1166
00:33:15.180 --> 00:33:16.919
Other humans.

1167
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:18.359
Right. Which means you have to

1168
00:33:18.360 --> 00:33:19.360
render them subhuman. It's

1169
00:33:21.090 --> 00:33:22.650
a dehumanizing process.

1170
00:33:24.360 --> 00:33:26.489
But that is the painful truth

1171
00:33:26.490 --> 00:33:28.469
of America that still

1172
00:33:28.470 --> 00:33:30.509
continues to this day

1173
00:33:30.510 --> 00:33:32.669
through the dehumanization

1174
00:33:32.670 --> 00:33:33.670
of

1175
00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:36.569
people trying to come into

1176
00:33:36.570 --> 00:33:37.570
the country. It

1177
00:33:39.270 --> 00:33:40.199
hasn't disappeared.

1178
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:41.999
And I think those are the truths

1179
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.589
that we have to recognize, that we

1180
00:33:43.590 --> 00:33:45.569
have to contend with

1181
00:33:45.570 --> 00:33:46.829
the modern project.

1182
00:33:46.830 --> 00:33:47.969
And I don't think it's just here.

1183
00:33:47.970 --> 00:33:49.019
I think it's worldwide.

1184
00:33:49.020 --> 00:33:50.152
The sense of the universalism of

1185
00:33:52.320 --> 00:33:54.509
the humanistic project that not

1186
00:33:54.510 --> 00:33:56.759
everyone was rendered human equally.

1187
00:33:56.760 --> 00:33:58.229
And that's, I think, critical.

1188
00:33:58.230 --> 00:33:59.309
Well, and that's a part of your

1189
00:33:59.310 --> 00:34:01.049
project, too, thinking on a global

1190
00:34:01.050 --> 00:34:02.549
scale of these things, as well as

1191
00:34:02.550 --> 00:34:03.839
thinking about the U.S.

1192
00:34:03.840 --> 00:34:05.879
Well, what do you-- maybe

1193
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:07.589
we can end just by talking about

1194
00:34:07.590 --> 00:34:08.610
what you're currently working on.

1195
00:34:10.980 --> 00:34:11.980
Many things.

1196
00:34:13.050 --> 00:34:14.069
Do you have one big project that

1197
00:34:14.070 --> 00:34:14.499
you're currently focusing on?

1198
00:34:14.500 --> 00:34:15.500
I have two.

1199
00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:18.459
I have a lot of ongoing-- Who Builds

1200
00:34:18.460 --> 00:34:19.779
Your Architecture? continues.

1201
00:34:19.780 --> 00:34:21.399
And thanks for the shout-out about

1202
00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:23.619
our field guide, which is available

1203
00:34:23.620 --> 00:34:24.620
on whobuilds.org.

1204
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:27.849
I can represent that.

1205
00:34:27.850 --> 00:34:29.919
And I started a project

1206
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:31.238
that came out of Negro Building

1207
00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:33.039
called Building Race and Nation

1208
00:34:33.040 --> 00:34:35.019
because I felt that because Negro

1209
00:34:35.020 --> 00:34:36.609
Building basically goes from

1210
00:34:36.610 --> 00:34:37.629
reconstruction, really

1211
00:34:37.630 --> 00:34:39.459
post-reconstruction onward,

1212
00:34:39.460 --> 00:34:41.468
the question of race and nation

1213
00:34:41.469 --> 00:34:42.698
were already taken for given.

1214
00:34:42.699 --> 00:34:44.138
The representations of race in the

1215
00:34:44.139 --> 00:34:45.638
expositions. We know what a

1216
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:47.769
nation-state and what racial

1217
00:34:47.770 --> 00:34:49.749
difference meant because of

1218
00:34:49.750 --> 00:34:51.369
the ways in which anthropology,

1219
00:34:52.510 --> 00:34:54.399
the social sciences, sociology, in

1220
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:55.419
particular-- Du Bois was a

1221
00:34:55.420 --> 00:34:57.219
sociologist, for example, it was

1222
00:34:57.220 --> 00:34:58.689
already given when he said what the

1223
00:34:58.690 --> 00:34:59.690
Negro was.

1224
00:35:00.580 --> 00:35:01.899
And so, I wanted to understand where

1225
00:35:01.900 --> 00:35:03.269
that came from. So I kept thinking.

1226
00:35:03.270 --> 00:35:05.169
And Du Bois does this very

1227
00:35:05.170 --> 00:35:06.999
strange temple of beauty

1228
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:08.829
at an exposition, which is in

1229
00:35:08.830 --> 00:35:11.139
this Egypto-Nubian aesthetic.

1230
00:35:11.140 --> 00:35:13.089
And he stages a pageant

1231
00:35:13.090 --> 00:35:15.039
in front of it, and it's heralding

1232
00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:16.419
a different trajectory of world

1233
00:35:16.420 --> 00:35:18.129
history that's moving through Africa

1234
00:35:18.130 --> 00:35:20.439
into the new world that's Black.

1235
00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:21.849
And it's in front of this thing.

1236
00:35:21.850 --> 00:35:23.199
And it's clearly nationalistic

1237
00:35:23.200 --> 00:35:24.639
because he writes his book, The

1238
00:35:24.640 --> 00:35:27.069
Negro, exactly at that time.

1239
00:35:27.070 --> 00:35:28.070
And I was like, why

1240
00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:31.269
is he taking-- where is this concept

1241
00:35:31.270 --> 00:35:32.559
of nation and race coming from?

1242
00:35:32.560 --> 00:35:34.209
So I thought, "Oh, well, then I'm

1243
00:35:34.210 --> 00:35:35.769
just going to have to look earlier."

1244
00:35:35.770 --> 00:35:37.299
So I became very interested in this

1245
00:35:37.300 --> 00:35:39.219
question of, okay, so you have

1246
00:35:39.220 --> 00:35:40.869
American civic architecture, you

1247
00:35:40.870 --> 00:35:41.979
have these founding fathers,

1248
00:35:41.980 --> 00:35:43.239
including Thomas Jefferson - who

1249
00:35:43.240 --> 00:35:44.889
sometimes is called the father of

1250
00:35:44.890 --> 00:35:47.559
American architecture - imagining

1251
00:35:47.560 --> 00:35:48.879
this civic architecture.

1252
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:50.709
And yet, because it's in Washington,

1253
00:35:50.710 --> 00:35:52.599
D.C., placed between

1254
00:35:52.600 --> 00:35:54.429
two slaveholding states,

1255
00:35:54.430 --> 00:35:56.499
it's a fair amount

1256
00:35:56.500 --> 00:35:58.599
of enslaved labor that is building

1257
00:35:58.600 --> 00:36:00.609
this. And you then have

1258
00:36:00.610 --> 00:36:01.959
that labor who's maintaining the

1259
00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:02.949
city itself.

1260
00:36:02.950 --> 00:36:04.209
And so, I really wanted to

1261
00:36:04.210 --> 00:36:06.039
understand how are

1262
00:36:06.040 --> 00:36:07.959
you figuring out these

1263
00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:10.389
questions of democracy, liberty,

1264
00:36:10.390 --> 00:36:12.549
freedom, equality

1265
00:36:12.550 --> 00:36:14.949
precisely amidst the truth

1266
00:36:14.950 --> 00:36:16.869
of how your life is being

1267
00:36:16.870 --> 00:36:17.949
maintained.

1268
00:36:17.950 --> 00:36:19.479
So what it does is it looks at a

1269
00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:20.649
history of American civic

1270
00:36:20.650 --> 00:36:21.729
architecture from the Virginia

1271
00:36:21.730 --> 00:36:23.589
statehouse to the formation

1272
00:36:23.590 --> 00:36:25.569
of Washington, D.C., the U.S.

1273
00:36:25.570 --> 00:36:27.279
Capitol, and the White House.

1274
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:28.929
I'm going to look at the American

1275
00:36:28.930 --> 00:36:30.489
Colonization Society.

1276
00:36:30.490 --> 00:36:31.929
The Pennsylvania Abolition Society

1277
00:36:31.930 --> 00:36:33.369
built a building in Philadelphia

1278
00:36:33.370 --> 00:36:35.529
that burned down after a day.

1279
00:36:35.530 --> 00:36:36.939
And then end with the Smithsonian

1280
00:36:36.940 --> 00:36:38.049
and the kind of project at the

1281
00:36:38.050 --> 00:36:39.849
Smithsonian where there was a really

1282
00:36:39.850 --> 00:36:41.229
interesting debate about how do we

1283
00:36:41.230 --> 00:36:42.639
build an American public

1284
00:36:42.640 --> 00:36:44.499
architecture and what style would

1285
00:36:44.500 --> 00:36:45.849
that be. So that's kind of an

1286
00:36:45.850 --> 00:36:47.769
ongoing project to see how the

1287
00:36:47.770 --> 00:36:49.269
concept of racial difference was

1288
00:36:49.270 --> 00:36:51.039
under formation in that period.

1289
00:36:51.040 --> 00:36:52.929
And that is, again,

1290
00:36:52.930 --> 00:36:54.279
a kind of parallel project with

1291
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:55.629
working on this memorial for

1292
00:36:55.630 --> 00:36:57.399
enslaved African American laborers,

1293
00:36:57.400 --> 00:36:58.269
where I'm working with a really

1294
00:36:58.270 --> 00:37:00.279
great group of architects and

1295
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:02.529
community activists, landscape

1296
00:37:02.530 --> 00:37:04.024
architects. So it's with Howeler +

1297
00:37:04.025 --> 00:37:05.739
Yoon, a really fantastic firm in

1298
00:37:05.740 --> 00:37:07.929
Boston, and Gregg Bleam,

1299
00:37:07.930 --> 00:37:09.609
landscape architect and a really

1300
00:37:09.610 --> 00:37:11.139
great guy, Frank Dukes, who's an

1301
00:37:11.140 --> 00:37:13.089
environmental mediator.

1302
00:37:13.090 --> 00:37:13.899
And there's a fair amount of

1303
00:37:13.900 --> 00:37:15.489
outreach for that project precisely

1304
00:37:15.490 --> 00:37:16.629
because the legacy of the

1305
00:37:16.630 --> 00:37:18.519
contentious relationship between the

1306
00:37:18.520 --> 00:37:20.019
university and the African American

1307
00:37:20.020 --> 00:37:23.049
community in Charlottesville.

1308
00:37:23.050 --> 00:37:24.909
And they are

1309
00:37:24.910 --> 00:37:27.009
the descendants of the people

1310
00:37:27.010 --> 00:37:27.939
who would have worked at the

1311
00:37:27.940 --> 00:37:29.529
university who would have been the

1312
00:37:29.530 --> 00:37:30.309
laborers.

1313
00:37:30.310 --> 00:37:31.749
Well, I will very much look forward

1314
00:37:31.750 --> 00:37:33.339
to that as I look forward to getting

1315
00:37:33.340 --> 00:37:34.206
to know all of your other work.

1316
00:37:34.207 --> 00:37:35.589
Mabel Wilson, thanks so much for

1317
00:37:35.590 --> 00:37:35.979
joining us.

1318
00:37:35.980 --> 00:37:37.629
It's a pleasure.

1319
00:37:37.630 --> 00:37:38.630
Thank you.

1320
00:37:46.390 --> 00:37:47.649
That's it for this edition of Being

1321
00:37:47.650 --> 00:37:48.519
Human.

1322
00:37:48.520 --> 00:37:49.989
This episode was produced by Matt

1323
00:37:49.990 --> 00:37:51.729
Moret, Undergraduate Media Fellow at

1324
00:37:51.730 --> 00:37:53.439
the University of Pittsburgh.

1325
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:54.789
Stay tuned for next time when my

1326
00:37:54.790 --> 00:37:56.799
guest will be Rafael Campo, poet

1327
00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:58.329
and professor of Medicine at Harvard

1328
00:37:58.330 --> 00:37:59.589
Medical School.

1329
00:37:59.590 --> 00:38:00.590
Thanks for listening.