WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.290 --> 00:00:11.519 Hello and welcome to the latest 2 00:00:11.520 --> 00:00:12.839 installment of Being Human from the 3 00:00:12.840 --> 00:00:14.249 University of Pittsburgh. 4 00:00:14.250 --> 00:00:15.809 This series is devoted to exploring 5 00:00:15.810 --> 00:00:17.399 the humanities, their connections to 6 00:00:17.400 --> 00:00:18.899 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:18.900 --> 00:00:20.309 in the public world. 8 00:00:20.310 --> 00:00:21.959 I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of 9 00:00:21.960 --> 00:00:23.549 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:23.550 --> 00:00:25.289 My guest today is Jane Ward, 11 00:00:25.290 --> 00:00:26.789 professor of Gender and Sexuality 12 00:00:26.790 --> 00:00:28.049 Studies at the University of 13 00:00:28.050 --> 00:00:29.050 California, Riverside. 14 00:00:30.390 --> 00:00:31.859 Professor Ward's CV looks 15 00:00:31.860 --> 00:00:33.269 unsurprising for a mid-career 16 00:00:33.270 --> 00:00:34.289 academic. 17 00:00:34.290 --> 00:00:35.819 It lists two books published by 18 00:00:35.820 --> 00:00:37.649 university presses and dozens 19 00:00:37.650 --> 00:00:39.119 of essays and articles in scholarly 20 00:00:39.120 --> 00:00:40.559 journals. 21 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:41.729 Readers also get a sense for 22 00:00:41.730 --> 00:00:43.229 Professor Ward's dynamic approach to 23 00:00:43.230 --> 00:00:44.849 teaching through course titles like 24 00:00:44.850 --> 00:00:45.779 Critical Approaches to 25 00:00:45.780 --> 00:00:47.849 Heterosexuality and Freaks, 26 00:00:47.850 --> 00:00:49.949 Sluts and Perverts: Sexual Others 27 00:00:49.950 --> 00:00:51.119 in the U.S. Imagination. 28 00:00:52.380 --> 00:00:54.209 What readers can't see on her CV is 29 00:00:54.210 --> 00:00:55.679 the sensation that her last book 30 00:00:55.680 --> 00:00:56.819 became when it was published in 31 00:00:56.820 --> 00:00:58.619 2015. 32 00:00:58.620 --> 00:01:00.719 That book, Not Gay: Sex Between 33 00:01:00.720 --> 00:01:02.699 Straight White Men, was widely 34 00:01:02.700 --> 00:01:04.469 discussed on the Internet, reviewed 35 00:01:04.470 --> 00:01:06.359 in places like Newsweek, Forbes, and 36 00:01:06.360 --> 00:01:08.219 The Guardian, and was the top seller 37 00:01:08.220 --> 00:01:09.479 on Amazon's gay and lesbian 38 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:11.739 nonfiction list for a time. 39 00:01:11.740 --> 00:01:12.999 I suppose it also didn't hurt that 40 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:14.619 occasional grad student James Franco 41 00:01:14.620 --> 00:01:15.849 put a photo of himself holding the 42 00:01:15.850 --> 00:01:16.850 book on Instagram. 43 00:01:17.890 --> 00:01:19.419 The book earned Professor Ward much 44 00:01:19.420 --> 00:01:21.429 praise but also criticism and even 45 00:01:21.430 --> 00:01:22.869 hate mail from people who objected 46 00:01:22.870 --> 00:01:24.369 to her argument that sexuality is 47 00:01:24.370 --> 00:01:26.079 culturally constructed rather than 48 00:01:26.080 --> 00:01:27.489 determined by bio-evolutionary 49 00:01:27.490 --> 00:01:29.109 processes. 50 00:01:29.110 --> 00:01:30.429 In the fall of last year, she 51 00:01:30.430 --> 00:01:32.139 published a follow-up essay in which 52 00:01:32.140 --> 00:01:33.819 she discussed reactions to her book 53 00:01:33.820 --> 00:01:35.019 and reasserted what has been a 54 00:01:35.020 --> 00:01:36.129 fundamental commitment for her 55 00:01:36.130 --> 00:01:37.629 throughout her career. 56 00:01:37.630 --> 00:01:39.849 That is, liberating sexual practices 57 00:01:39.850 --> 00:01:41.619 from narrowly understood categories 58 00:01:41.620 --> 00:01:43.509 and opening up more space for queer 59 00:01:43.510 --> 00:01:45.129 ways of life. 60 00:01:45.130 --> 00:01:46.599 I began by asking Professor Ward 61 00:01:46.600 --> 00:01:47.769 about what she was arguing in Not 62 00:01:47.770 --> 00:01:49.809 Gay, and why it made so many people 63 00:01:49.810 --> 00:01:50.810 so mad. 64 00:01:59.620 --> 00:02:00.939 I started thinking about this 65 00:02:00.940 --> 00:02:02.799 project about 20 years ago 66 00:02:02.800 --> 00:02:04.869 when I was an undergrad 67 00:02:04.870 --> 00:02:06.369 at a university in Southern 68 00:02:06.370 --> 00:02:08.319 California, and 69 00:02:08.320 --> 00:02:10.209 a straight white male friend 70 00:02:10.210 --> 00:02:12.579 of mine shared with me 71 00:02:12.580 --> 00:02:14.469 about a hazing ritual that 72 00:02:14.470 --> 00:02:16.179 he had witnessed called the elephant 73 00:02:16.180 --> 00:02:17.319 walk. 74 00:02:17.320 --> 00:02:19.299 And in this ritual, which 75 00:02:19.300 --> 00:02:20.499 I describe in the book, 76 00:02:22.090 --> 00:02:23.979 fraternity pledges 77 00:02:23.980 --> 00:02:25.989 take off their clothes, and 78 00:02:25.990 --> 00:02:28.059 they walk in a circle 79 00:02:28.060 --> 00:02:29.859 like circus elephants. 80 00:02:29.860 --> 00:02:31.209 But rather than connect to tail to 81 00:02:31.210 --> 00:02:33.099 trunk, they have their thumb in the 82 00:02:33.100 --> 00:02:34.959 anus of the guy in front of them, or 83 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:36.759 they have their hand on the penis of 84 00:02:36.760 --> 00:02:37.719 the guy in front of them. 85 00:02:37.720 --> 00:02:38.769 There are different iterations of 86 00:02:38.770 --> 00:02:39.609 this. 87 00:02:39.610 --> 00:02:40.899 And when my friend told me about 88 00:02:40.900 --> 00:02:42.999 this, I was 89 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:44.229 21. 90 00:02:44.230 --> 00:02:46.539 I was absolutely shocked 91 00:02:46.540 --> 00:02:48.549 because I had certainly 92 00:02:48.550 --> 00:02:49.839 never done anything like that with 93 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:51.939 women. And 94 00:02:51.940 --> 00:02:53.829 I knew that if I had 95 00:02:53.830 --> 00:02:55.719 done something like that with women, 96 00:02:55.720 --> 00:02:57.639 that would be perceived as sexual. 97 00:02:57.640 --> 00:02:59.529 And yet he was telling the story 98 00:02:59.530 --> 00:03:01.479 to me as if 99 00:03:01.480 --> 00:03:04.269 this was just 100 00:03:04.270 --> 00:03:06.369 like tomfoolery. 101 00:03:06.370 --> 00:03:07.419 Like it just it didn't have any 102 00:03:07.420 --> 00:03:08.319 sexual content. 103 00:03:08.320 --> 00:03:10.299 And so I was really struck by 104 00:03:10.300 --> 00:03:11.300 the 105 00:03:14.410 --> 00:03:16.869 disparity between 106 00:03:16.870 --> 00:03:19.419 the kinds of intimate contact 107 00:03:19.420 --> 00:03:20.859 that men can make-- that straight 108 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:22.269 men can make with one another, and 109 00:03:22.270 --> 00:03:23.529 the kinds of intimate contact that 110 00:03:23.530 --> 00:03:25.629 straight women can make and the 111 00:03:26.830 --> 00:03:28.779 very different stories we tell 112 00:03:28.780 --> 00:03:30.789 about that. And so, 113 00:03:30.790 --> 00:03:32.919 fast forward to 114 00:03:32.920 --> 00:03:34.779 the early 2000s, when 115 00:03:34.780 --> 00:03:36.730 I started thinking about this book, 116 00:03:37.810 --> 00:03:39.459 there was a lot of commentary in the 117 00:03:39.460 --> 00:03:41.349 media about men of color on 118 00:03:41.350 --> 00:03:42.639 the down low. 119 00:03:42.640 --> 00:03:44.769 And at the same time, that 120 00:03:44.770 --> 00:03:47.020 there was a bit of 121 00:03:48.100 --> 00:03:50.169 a public health panic 122 00:03:50.170 --> 00:03:52.479 about that or a moral panic 123 00:03:52.480 --> 00:03:54.369 about black men having sex with men 124 00:03:54.370 --> 00:03:56.229 and possibly spreading HIV 125 00:03:56.230 --> 00:03:58.659 to their wives or girlfriends. 126 00:03:58.660 --> 00:04:00.639 There was also a lot of interest 127 00:04:00.640 --> 00:04:02.679 in girls kissing girls 128 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:04.569 and female celebrities doing 129 00:04:04.570 --> 00:04:06.429 this and what this means. 130 00:04:06.430 --> 00:04:08.259 And so, who is 131 00:04:08.260 --> 00:04:10.419 absent in these 132 00:04:10.420 --> 00:04:12.609 very high-profile stories 133 00:04:12.610 --> 00:04:14.379 coming out in The New York Times 134 00:04:14.380 --> 00:04:15.402 about these two phenomena? 135 00:04:16.930 --> 00:04:18.489 White men, straight white men. 136 00:04:18.490 --> 00:04:20.319 And I knew from 137 00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:22.088 this past experience that straight 138 00:04:22.089 --> 00:04:23.949 white men had their own version of 139 00:04:23.950 --> 00:04:25.329 this kind of complicated, fluid 140 00:04:25.330 --> 00:04:26.739 sexuality that no one was talking 141 00:04:26.740 --> 00:04:29.169 about. So this becomes the 142 00:04:29.170 --> 00:04:31.209 initial question for the book, and 143 00:04:31.210 --> 00:04:33.159 I start out interested in 144 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:34.779 the kinds of loopholes that are 145 00:04:34.780 --> 00:04:37.059 available to straight white men 146 00:04:37.060 --> 00:04:38.889 to make sexual contact with other 147 00:04:38.890 --> 00:04:41.469 men and still retain 148 00:04:41.470 --> 00:04:43.299 their straightness-- their status 149 00:04:43.300 --> 00:04:44.289 as heterosexual. 150 00:04:44.290 --> 00:04:46.119 And so that's the driving question 151 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:46.899 of the book. 152 00:04:46.900 --> 00:04:48.879 One of the central points in 153 00:04:48.880 --> 00:04:50.439 it, I think, is that it does not 154 00:04:50.440 --> 00:04:52.599 make sense, you argue, to 155 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:55.129 look at these acts and conclude 156 00:04:55.130 --> 00:04:56.479 these are all closeted gay men. 157 00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:57.489 Right. 158 00:04:57.490 --> 00:04:59.439 Well, one of the misconceptions 159 00:04:59.440 --> 00:05:01.269 about this book - I think 160 00:05:01.270 --> 00:05:02.859 on the part of people who maybe have 161 00:05:02.860 --> 00:05:04.359 read a blurb but haven't actually 162 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:06.219 read the book - is that this 163 00:05:06.220 --> 00:05:08.109 is a book that 164 00:05:08.110 --> 00:05:10.299 is about a particular 165 00:05:10.300 --> 00:05:12.339 subset of straight 166 00:05:12.340 --> 00:05:14.319 white men or some subgroup. 167 00:05:14.320 --> 00:05:15.729 It's actually really about all 168 00:05:15.730 --> 00:05:16.730 straight white men. It's 169 00:05:18.580 --> 00:05:20.289 about hetero-masculinity in 170 00:05:20.290 --> 00:05:21.099 particular or white 171 00:05:21.100 --> 00:05:23.279 hetero-masculinity. And so 172 00:05:23.280 --> 00:05:25.239 the reason I say that is that 173 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:27.699 the case studies that I'm looking at 174 00:05:27.700 --> 00:05:28.700 are-- they're 175 00:05:31.820 --> 00:05:34.969 examples of straight men 176 00:05:34.970 --> 00:05:36.919 touching one another in sexual 177 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:38.809 ways as part of 178 00:05:38.810 --> 00:05:40.819 the everyday life of 179 00:05:42.170 --> 00:05:45.139 hegemonic masculine institutions, 180 00:05:45.140 --> 00:05:47.330 fraternities, the military, 181 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:51.139 places that all men circulate 182 00:05:51.140 --> 00:05:53.119 in. Of course, not all men are 183 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:54.979 in fraternities or in the 184 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:56.899 military, but we would be wrong to 185 00:05:56.900 --> 00:05:58.879 say that those institutions 186 00:05:58.880 --> 00:06:01.399 are populated only by closeted men. 187 00:06:01.400 --> 00:06:03.709 So many 188 00:06:03.710 --> 00:06:05.689 other scholars have looked at this 189 00:06:05.690 --> 00:06:07.519 kind of behavior and 190 00:06:07.520 --> 00:06:09.079 have called - mostly psychologists - 191 00:06:09.080 --> 00:06:10.639 and they have called it situational 192 00:06:10.640 --> 00:06:13.129 homosexuality or 193 00:06:13.130 --> 00:06:14.779 deprivational homosexuality. 194 00:06:14.780 --> 00:06:15.709 And they have all these theories 195 00:06:15.710 --> 00:06:17.509 that men do this because they don't 196 00:06:17.510 --> 00:06:19.639 have access to women sex 197 00:06:19.640 --> 00:06:21.499 partners in prisons or in 198 00:06:21.500 --> 00:06:22.519 the military. 199 00:06:22.520 --> 00:06:23.869 But when you take all of that 200 00:06:23.870 --> 00:06:26.029 research together, you find 201 00:06:26.030 --> 00:06:27.030 that the 202 00:06:28.520 --> 00:06:30.409 same logics that are at work 203 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:32.359 in the prison that 204 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:34.219 justify men touching each other 205 00:06:34.220 --> 00:06:36.499 are also circulating 206 00:06:36.500 --> 00:06:38.119 outside of the prison in 207 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:40.099 fraternities where men 208 00:06:40.100 --> 00:06:42.169 certainly do have access to 209 00:06:42.170 --> 00:06:44.509 sex with women and circulating 210 00:06:44.510 --> 00:06:46.579 in public restrooms and in living 211 00:06:46.580 --> 00:06:48.439 rooms. And so part 212 00:06:48.440 --> 00:06:49.759 of what I do in the book is look at 213 00:06:49.760 --> 00:06:51.469 all of this research that has 214 00:06:51.470 --> 00:06:52.748 presumed that it was-- 215 00:06:54.710 --> 00:06:56.629 that makes conclusions based 216 00:06:56.630 --> 00:06:58.579 on the particularities 217 00:06:58.580 --> 00:07:00.529 of the specific institution 218 00:07:00.530 --> 00:07:01.939 being studied. 219 00:07:01.940 --> 00:07:03.799 And then raise-- when you look 220 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:05.149 at it all together, it raises some 221 00:07:05.150 --> 00:07:06.949 other questions. 222 00:07:06.950 --> 00:07:08.359 The main one, I think, or the most 223 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:10.339 important one, being what's going on 224 00:07:10.340 --> 00:07:12.409 with straight men that every chance 225 00:07:12.410 --> 00:07:13.999 they get to put their finger in each 226 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:15.919 other's anus, they basically 227 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:17.869 take it. That these opportunities 228 00:07:17.870 --> 00:07:20.179 are manufactured across such a broad 229 00:07:20.180 --> 00:07:21.919 range of institutional environments. 230 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:23.959 Yeah, well, one of the points that 231 00:07:23.960 --> 00:07:25.849 you make in the book 232 00:07:25.850 --> 00:07:27.919 was that the story 233 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:29.539 of heterosexuality in the 21st 234 00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:31.219 century, you say, is about the rise 235 00:07:31.220 --> 00:07:32.749 of bio-evolutionary accounts of 236 00:07:32.750 --> 00:07:33.299 sexual desire. Right? 237 00:07:33.300 --> 00:07:34.009 Yes. 238 00:07:34.010 --> 00:07:35.659 And this is a very important point. 239 00:07:35.660 --> 00:07:37.939 Why have those accounts 240 00:07:37.940 --> 00:07:39.889 gained in popularity in recent 241 00:07:39.890 --> 00:07:40.229 years? 242 00:07:40.230 --> 00:07:42.229 Right. Right. So what we do see from 243 00:07:42.230 --> 00:07:44.119 General Social Survey is that 244 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.039 the number of Americans who 245 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.049 believe that people are born with 246 00:07:48.050 --> 00:07:50.179 their sexual orientation intact 247 00:07:50.180 --> 00:07:51.469 or that sexual orientation is 248 00:07:51.470 --> 00:07:53.359 congenital has 249 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:54.285 increased dramatically. 250 00:07:54.286 --> 00:07:56.779 It started increasing in the 1950s 251 00:07:56.780 --> 00:07:58.729 and has just gone up since 252 00:07:58.730 --> 00:07:59.539 then. 253 00:07:59.540 --> 00:08:01.369 I think the 254 00:08:01.370 --> 00:08:03.379 reason for that is 255 00:08:03.380 --> 00:08:05.869 that is the message 256 00:08:05.870 --> 00:08:07.939 that has been promoted by 257 00:08:07.940 --> 00:08:09.169 the mainstream gay and lesbian 258 00:08:09.170 --> 00:08:11.419 movement. And so belief 259 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:13.609 that people are born 260 00:08:13.610 --> 00:08:15.979 with a sexual constitution 261 00:08:15.980 --> 00:08:17.569 and that they have no control over 262 00:08:17.570 --> 00:08:19.519 that sexual constitution has 263 00:08:19.520 --> 00:08:21.379 become associated with 264 00:08:21.380 --> 00:08:23.299 being a good person, with being 265 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:24.300 an ally to gay-- to having 266 00:08:25.610 --> 00:08:27.139 an open mind. 267 00:08:27.140 --> 00:08:29.059 And so I think most people, 268 00:08:29.060 --> 00:08:30.889 both gay and straight, 269 00:08:30.890 --> 00:08:32.479 anyone who imagines themselves as a 270 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:34.169 straight ally, for instance, think 271 00:08:35.450 --> 00:08:36.918 that that's the right thing to 272 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:39.288 believe. But interestingly, 273 00:08:39.289 --> 00:08:41.928 what this biological turn 274 00:08:41.929 --> 00:08:43.908 has also made 275 00:08:43.909 --> 00:08:45.859 possible is for straight 276 00:08:45.860 --> 00:08:47.749 people to imagine that 277 00:08:47.750 --> 00:08:49.879 their heterosexuality 278 00:08:49.880 --> 00:08:52.039 was also present at birth and that 279 00:08:52.040 --> 00:08:53.449 it's fixed. There's nothing that 280 00:08:53.450 --> 00:08:54.409 they can do about it. 281 00:08:54.410 --> 00:08:56.809 And so, almost paradoxically, 282 00:08:56.810 --> 00:08:58.519 what that means is that straight 283 00:08:58.520 --> 00:09:00.349 people can engage in 284 00:09:00.350 --> 00:09:02.659 homosexual behaviors 285 00:09:02.660 --> 00:09:04.669 and think, "Well, you know, 286 00:09:04.670 --> 00:09:06.889 I know I'm 287 00:09:06.890 --> 00:09:08.239 biologically straight. 288 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:09.979 So that was just a circumstantial 289 00:09:09.980 --> 00:09:11.869 aberration." And so part 290 00:09:11.870 --> 00:09:14.029 of what I'm tracing is the way that 291 00:09:14.030 --> 00:09:15.889 the the rise 292 00:09:15.890 --> 00:09:17.809 of bioessentialist theories 293 00:09:17.810 --> 00:09:19.279 of sexual orientation have actually 294 00:09:19.280 --> 00:09:21.619 created more spaciousness 295 00:09:21.620 --> 00:09:24.049 for straight people to temporarily 296 00:09:24.050 --> 00:09:25.879 stray or to imagine that 297 00:09:25.880 --> 00:09:28.309 they are acting 298 00:09:28.310 --> 00:09:30.169 temporarily out of accordance with 299 00:09:30.170 --> 00:09:32.389 their innate sexual constitution. 300 00:09:32.390 --> 00:09:33.559 Yeah, but that's innate. 301 00:09:33.560 --> 00:09:34.579 That's not going anywhere. 302 00:09:34.580 --> 00:09:35.209 Exactly. 303 00:09:35.210 --> 00:09:36.210 So there's no concern for it. 304 00:09:37.280 --> 00:09:38.929 Yeah. Whereas in the past, your 305 00:09:38.930 --> 00:09:41.539 homosexuality was 306 00:09:41.540 --> 00:09:43.459 signaled simply 307 00:09:43.460 --> 00:09:44.299 by your behavior. 308 00:09:44.300 --> 00:09:46.159 So if you had-- if you had any 309 00:09:46.160 --> 00:09:48.079 homosexual encounter, that meant you 310 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:49.339 were gay, whether you wanted to say 311 00:09:49.340 --> 00:09:51.889 so or not. And now, we understand 312 00:09:51.890 --> 00:09:53.659 most people believe that context 313 00:09:53.660 --> 00:09:55.459 matters. So most people believe that 314 00:09:55.460 --> 00:09:57.739 if a straight woman has a threesome 315 00:09:57.740 --> 00:09:59.449 with another woman and her boyfriend 316 00:09:59.450 --> 00:10:01.159 for his birthday, for instance, 317 00:10:01.160 --> 00:10:02.899 that's not a sad story of her being 318 00:10:02.900 --> 00:10:04.069 a closeted lesbian. 319 00:10:04.070 --> 00:10:05.329 Instead, people take into 320 00:10:05.330 --> 00:10:06.949 consideration all of the contextual 321 00:10:06.950 --> 00:10:08.749 information, and they say, "Oh, 322 00:10:08.750 --> 00:10:10.519 she's straight." Or maybe they say 323 00:10:10.520 --> 00:10:12.229 she might have bisexual impulses or 324 00:10:12.230 --> 00:10:13.249 something like that. But for the 325 00:10:13.250 --> 00:10:15.079 most part, we provide 326 00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:16.699 straight people now with many 327 00:10:16.700 --> 00:10:18.529 loopholes that help to 328 00:10:18.530 --> 00:10:20.269 preserve their heterosexuality even 329 00:10:20.270 --> 00:10:22.249 as they make homosexual contact. 330 00:10:22.250 --> 00:10:23.599 My favorite chapters in the book is 331 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:25.519 where you argue for an embrace 332 00:10:25.520 --> 00:10:27.309 of queer erotic worlds. 333 00:10:27.310 --> 00:10:28.819 Right? This is the thing that you 334 00:10:28.820 --> 00:10:30.369 want your argument to be in service 335 00:10:30.370 --> 00:10:31.279 of intimately. 336 00:10:31.280 --> 00:10:32.619 And I wonder if you can say a little 337 00:10:32.620 --> 00:10:35.289 bit about how your work complicating 338 00:10:35.290 --> 00:10:37.149 heterosexuality here works 339 00:10:37.150 --> 00:10:38.889 in service of embracing those 340 00:10:38.890 --> 00:10:39.579 worlds? 341 00:10:39.580 --> 00:10:41.559 I think part of what's 342 00:10:41.560 --> 00:10:43.959 complicated about straight 343 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.239 white men's, 344 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:48.639 admittedly, kinky interactions 345 00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:50.619 with one another is that, 346 00:10:50.620 --> 00:10:53.349 at first blush, they do seem queer. 347 00:10:53.350 --> 00:10:55.329 These are really 348 00:10:55.330 --> 00:10:57.759 often very fantastical scenarios 349 00:10:57.760 --> 00:10:59.679 in which men are topping other 350 00:10:59.680 --> 00:11:00.680 men. 351 00:11:02.800 --> 00:11:04.299 I'm often very impressed with how 352 00:11:04.300 --> 00:11:06.249 elaborate these rituals are. 353 00:11:06.250 --> 00:11:07.629 And I have a chapter that's about 354 00:11:07.630 --> 00:11:09.579 Craigslist ads in which straight 355 00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:11.088 men are seeking sex with other men, 356 00:11:11.089 --> 00:11:12.969 and often these ads read 357 00:11:12.970 --> 00:11:15.489 like very detailed porn. 358 00:11:15.490 --> 00:11:17.739 They're just with costumery and 359 00:11:17.740 --> 00:11:18.519 all that stuff. 360 00:11:18.520 --> 00:11:20.409 So, again, one could 361 00:11:20.410 --> 00:11:22.149 say, "Well, what's queerer than 362 00:11:22.150 --> 00:11:24.069 this?" But the point 363 00:11:24.070 --> 00:11:26.109 of the book is 364 00:11:26.110 --> 00:11:28.269 that all of this is happening 365 00:11:28.270 --> 00:11:30.639 in the service of heteronormativity. 366 00:11:30.640 --> 00:11:32.409 These men are deeply, deeply 367 00:11:32.410 --> 00:11:34.089 invested in being perceived as 368 00:11:34.090 --> 00:11:36.069 sexually normal and 369 00:11:36.070 --> 00:11:38.289 deeply invested in 370 00:11:38.290 --> 00:11:40.119 living a heterosexual life. 371 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:41.769 They know that there is a queer 372 00:11:41.770 --> 00:11:43.239 movement or an LGBT movement. 373 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:44.739 They want nothing to do with it. 374 00:11:44.740 --> 00:11:46.719 It doesn't feel like home to them. 375 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:48.669 Being straight is where 376 00:11:48.670 --> 00:11:50.889 their heart is, and it's certainly 377 00:11:50.890 --> 00:11:52.269 where their politics lie. 378 00:11:53.470 --> 00:11:54.470 So 379 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:57.519 for me, as a queer 380 00:11:57.520 --> 00:11:59.439 person and as someone 381 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:01.389 who understands queerness 382 00:12:01.390 --> 00:12:03.369 not as a 383 00:12:03.370 --> 00:12:05.259 synonym for 384 00:12:05.260 --> 00:12:07.659 homosexuality but as a political 385 00:12:07.660 --> 00:12:09.519 orientation, a refusal of 386 00:12:09.520 --> 00:12:11.949 gender and sexual normativity, 387 00:12:11.950 --> 00:12:13.809 this, I think, helps to 388 00:12:13.810 --> 00:12:14.810 push us. 389 00:12:15.610 --> 00:12:16.929 I mean, already, we've been engaged 390 00:12:16.930 --> 00:12:18.579 in this project of delinking 391 00:12:18.580 --> 00:12:20.229 queerness from homosexual sex 392 00:12:20.230 --> 00:12:21.549 practices. 393 00:12:21.550 --> 00:12:23.649 And I think it helps to 394 00:12:23.650 --> 00:12:25.509 illuminate the significance of that 395 00:12:25.510 --> 00:12:27.369 even more that 396 00:12:27.370 --> 00:12:29.349 there's no end 397 00:12:29.350 --> 00:12:31.419 of sex practices 398 00:12:31.420 --> 00:12:33.189 that can be folded into 399 00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:35.079 heteronormativity or used in the 400 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:37.629 service of heteronormativity. 401 00:12:37.630 --> 00:12:39.579 So what that means is that 402 00:12:39.580 --> 00:12:40.706 the power of queerness-- it's 403 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:44.409 certainly about sex practices. 404 00:12:44.410 --> 00:12:45.459 I'm not saying it's not, but it's 405 00:12:45.460 --> 00:12:46.929 about the meaning of those sex 406 00:12:46.930 --> 00:12:48.759 practices, and 407 00:12:48.760 --> 00:12:50.649 what their use is, what 408 00:12:50.650 --> 00:12:52.449 the context is in people's lives. 409 00:12:52.450 --> 00:12:53.829 And so it's in that last chapter 410 00:12:53.830 --> 00:12:55.209 that I'm reflecting on that. 411 00:12:55.210 --> 00:12:56.859 Hearing you talk about this now 412 00:12:56.860 --> 00:12:58.719 makes me recall the value 413 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:00.639 you put on sincerity in that 414 00:13:00.640 --> 00:13:01.989 last chapter. It sounds now like 415 00:13:01.990 --> 00:13:02.859 that's kind of what you're talking 416 00:13:02.860 --> 00:13:04.539 about, like looking for a kind of 417 00:13:04.540 --> 00:13:05.949 sincere queerness. 418 00:13:05.950 --> 00:13:06.909 Yes. 419 00:13:06.910 --> 00:13:09.159 Yeah. And I shocked myself 420 00:13:09.160 --> 00:13:11.119 to even be saying that word 421 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:12.339 because, of course, you don't 422 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:13.569 think-- when you think queer, you 423 00:13:13.570 --> 00:13:15.459 don't think sincerity. 424 00:13:15.460 --> 00:13:16.460 And yet 425 00:13:20.110 --> 00:13:21.699 one of the common threads for 426 00:13:21.700 --> 00:13:23.709 straight men, 427 00:13:23.710 --> 00:13:25.599 when they are touching other 428 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:27.519 men, is that they want it to 429 00:13:27.520 --> 00:13:29.379 be made really clear that it is 430 00:13:29.380 --> 00:13:31.359 meaningless and 431 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:33.459 that there's nothing-- 432 00:13:33.460 --> 00:13:35.739 not just nothing identitarian 433 00:13:35.740 --> 00:13:37.449 happening there, like, what they're 434 00:13:37.450 --> 00:13:39.249 doing should not be a reflection of 435 00:13:39.250 --> 00:13:41.199 their identity, but also that 436 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:42.429 there's nothing of political 437 00:13:42.430 --> 00:13:44.199 consequence happening there. 438 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:46.269 And I think queer people when 439 00:13:46.270 --> 00:13:48.339 we fuck, we're pretty sincere 440 00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:50.259 about the queerness and the 441 00:13:50.260 --> 00:13:52.029 political nature of those 442 00:13:52.030 --> 00:13:53.469 encounters. And when I'm talking 443 00:13:53.470 --> 00:13:54.819 about queer, I'm not talking about 444 00:13:54.820 --> 00:13:56.559 gay. I'm talking about queer. 445 00:13:56.560 --> 00:13:58.569 So, yeah, I did want to 446 00:13:58.570 --> 00:13:59.979 mind that 447 00:14:01.030 --> 00:14:02.859 idea or that concept of 448 00:14:02.860 --> 00:14:05.229 sincerity for its queer potential. 449 00:14:05.230 --> 00:14:06.549 Yeah. I want to also ask you about 450 00:14:06.550 --> 00:14:07.389 the reaction to the book. 451 00:14:07.390 --> 00:14:09.069 There's been negative reaction to 452 00:14:09.070 --> 00:14:10.119 it. You published on the negative 453 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:11.499 reaction, but also, we should say a 454 00:14:11.500 --> 00:14:12.639 lot of positive reaction. 455 00:14:12.640 --> 00:14:13.929 It's been nominated for awards. 456 00:14:13.930 --> 00:14:15.519 It's been already translated into 457 00:14:15.520 --> 00:14:16.520 German. I mean, I'd join 458 00:14:18.160 --> 00:14:19.929 the people who think very highly of 459 00:14:19.930 --> 00:14:21.249 it. But I want to ask you, even 460 00:14:21.250 --> 00:14:22.209 before we get into kind of the 461 00:14:22.210 --> 00:14:23.829 positive and the negative, I want to 462 00:14:23.830 --> 00:14:25.689 ask just about the size in general. 463 00:14:25.690 --> 00:14:27.099 What are your thoughts on why the 464 00:14:27.100 --> 00:14:28.119 readership was so big? 465 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:28.839 Yes. 466 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:29.919 It was not unexpected for you? 467 00:14:29.920 --> 00:14:30.920 It was unexpected. 468 00:14:31.540 --> 00:14:33.789 I love projects 469 00:14:33.790 --> 00:14:36.009 in which the main finding 470 00:14:36.010 --> 00:14:38.169 of the project seems so obvious, 471 00:14:38.170 --> 00:14:40.149 and yet no 472 00:14:40.150 --> 00:14:41.199 one had talked about it yet. 473 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:43.059 And I think this book sort of 474 00:14:43.060 --> 00:14:45.129 falls into that category that, 475 00:14:45.130 --> 00:14:46.389 of course, this is happening. 476 00:14:46.390 --> 00:14:48.429 It's happening all around us. 477 00:14:48.430 --> 00:14:49.779 Straight men, sexual contact with 478 00:14:49.780 --> 00:14:50.949 one another is everywhere and 479 00:14:50.950 --> 00:14:52.089 nowhere. 480 00:14:52.090 --> 00:14:53.739 And so I think it resonated on that 481 00:14:53.740 --> 00:14:55.719 level of people wanting a framework 482 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:56.919 to make sense of it. 483 00:14:56.920 --> 00:14:57.920 Also, it's 484 00:14:58.810 --> 00:14:59.739 about sex. 485 00:14:59.740 --> 00:15:02.349 And one of the 486 00:15:02.350 --> 00:15:04.419 surprises for me is 487 00:15:04.420 --> 00:15:06.309 that somehow 488 00:15:06.310 --> 00:15:09.249 this book circulated 489 00:15:09.250 --> 00:15:12.219 among gay men, nonacademic 490 00:15:12.220 --> 00:15:14.079 gay male readers, with the hope 491 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:15.999 that it would be titillating, 492 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:17.799 that it would be-- that it was sort 493 00:15:17.800 --> 00:15:18.849 of like gay porn. 494 00:15:18.850 --> 00:15:20.199 And I think many of them were 495 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:21.496 disappointed to discover 496 00:15:22.540 --> 00:15:25.059 my feminist analysis running 497 00:15:25.060 --> 00:15:26.709 through this book alongside the hot 498 00:15:26.710 --> 00:15:27.609 images. 499 00:15:27.610 --> 00:15:28.409 It's a buzzkill as you write in your-- 500 00:15:28.410 --> 00:15:29.410 Yes, yes. 501 00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:31.830 So yeah, I mean, I heard-- 502 00:15:31.831 --> 00:15:34.079 setting aside the academic 503 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:36.059 responses, which were mostly 504 00:15:36.060 --> 00:15:38.189 positive and constructive, I 505 00:15:38.190 --> 00:15:40.859 heard from many 506 00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:43.079 gay men, who are 507 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.029 outside of the academy, and 508 00:15:45.030 --> 00:15:46.979 straight men and 509 00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:48.179 straight women. 510 00:15:48.180 --> 00:15:50.069 And the nature of those 511 00:15:50.070 --> 00:15:52.169 responses were all very different. 512 00:15:52.170 --> 00:15:54.059 I heard from many gay men who hated 513 00:15:54.060 --> 00:15:55.919 this book and who 514 00:15:55.920 --> 00:15:58.049 expressed their outrage, 515 00:15:58.050 --> 00:16:00.299 often in quite misogynistic 516 00:16:00.300 --> 00:16:02.399 terms. And then, many 517 00:16:02.400 --> 00:16:04.529 straight men who loved 518 00:16:04.530 --> 00:16:06.659 this book and wrote to me with 519 00:16:06.660 --> 00:16:08.639 detailed and very juicy 520 00:16:08.640 --> 00:16:10.919 confessions of their 521 00:16:10.920 --> 00:16:11.918 sexual encounters with other men. 522 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:14.279 And then, many straight women 523 00:16:14.280 --> 00:16:16.379 who were partnered 524 00:16:16.380 --> 00:16:18.059 with men that they thought might be 525 00:16:18.060 --> 00:16:20.009 having sex with men 526 00:16:20.010 --> 00:16:21.719 and who, for the most part, were 527 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:23.219 quite heartbroken about it. 528 00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:24.220 And so, 529 00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:28.109 the intensity of the feelings 530 00:16:28.110 --> 00:16:30.239 around this book, 531 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:32.009 I wasn't quite prepared to deal with 532 00:16:32.010 --> 00:16:33.149 it, in part because many of the 533 00:16:33.150 --> 00:16:34.199 people writing to me what they 534 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:37.679 really needed was psychotherapy. 535 00:16:37.680 --> 00:16:39.239 What they needed was some sort of 536 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:41.129 emotional healing. 537 00:16:41.130 --> 00:16:43.049 So, yeah, 538 00:16:43.050 --> 00:16:45.059 it was really fascinating. 539 00:16:45.060 --> 00:16:45.989 That reminds me, you were actually 540 00:16:45.990 --> 00:16:48.179 invited to go on television shows, 541 00:16:48.180 --> 00:16:50.639 right? In the role of a therapist 542 00:16:50.640 --> 00:16:51.299 after this. 543 00:16:51.300 --> 00:16:52.427 Yes. Yes. 544 00:16:53.820 --> 00:16:55.679 I don't watch TV, so when 545 00:16:55.680 --> 00:16:57.059 I got these requests, I'd have to 546 00:16:57.060 --> 00:16:58.739 Google and find out what on earth is 547 00:16:58.740 --> 00:17:00.899 this. But one daytime talk 548 00:17:00.900 --> 00:17:03.299 show called The Doctors asked me 549 00:17:03.300 --> 00:17:05.279 if I would be 550 00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:07.769 on the show to talk to wives 551 00:17:07.770 --> 00:17:09.689 about how to relate to their 552 00:17:09.690 --> 00:17:11.578 husbands or boyfriends-- 553 00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:13.379 how to relate to the discovery that 554 00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:14.368 their husbands, their boyfriends 555 00:17:14.369 --> 00:17:15.629 were having sex with men. 556 00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:17.219 Of course, that is really out of my 557 00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:18.220 wheelhouse. 558 00:17:21.810 --> 00:17:23.909 Well, so you published an article on 559 00:17:23.910 --> 00:17:24.910 the reactions in 560 00:17:26.069 --> 00:17:28.199 fall of last year. 561 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:30.089 And one of the things that I found 562 00:17:30.090 --> 00:17:31.319 really interesting that you did in 563 00:17:31.320 --> 00:17:33.479 that piece was reflect 564 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:35.309 on your method of 565 00:17:35.310 --> 00:17:36.359 writing in the book. 566 00:17:36.360 --> 00:17:38.429 And you write a little bit 567 00:17:38.430 --> 00:17:40.469 about the-- or you defend 568 00:17:40.470 --> 00:17:42.359 the humanistic and 569 00:17:42.360 --> 00:17:43.889 cultural studies approaches that you 570 00:17:43.890 --> 00:17:45.809 take against approaches that 571 00:17:45.810 --> 00:17:47.369 are based in biology or quantitative 572 00:17:47.370 --> 00:17:48.449 social sciences. 573 00:17:48.450 --> 00:17:49.859 Did you expect to do that? 574 00:17:49.860 --> 00:17:51.269 Did you expect to have to defend 575 00:17:51.270 --> 00:17:52.499 that method in that way because 576 00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:53.669 you're trained in sociology? 577 00:17:53.670 --> 00:17:55.529 I mean, how did that come about? 578 00:17:55.530 --> 00:17:56.729 I did. 579 00:17:56.730 --> 00:17:58.379 And I didn't expect that 580 00:17:58.380 --> 00:18:00.059 sociologists would love this book 581 00:18:00.060 --> 00:18:02.189 precisely because of 582 00:18:02.190 --> 00:18:04.289 its cultural studies 583 00:18:04.290 --> 00:18:05.290 methodology. Often 584 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:07.180 in the social sciences, truth 585 00:18:08.670 --> 00:18:10.589 comes out of the mouths of people 586 00:18:10.590 --> 00:18:12.389 that you interview or who fill out 587 00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:13.409 your survey. This is the 588 00:18:13.410 --> 00:18:15.599 presumption. And so, 589 00:18:15.600 --> 00:18:19.139 you're going for reproducibility 590 00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:21.449 and generalizability. 591 00:18:21.450 --> 00:18:23.639 And so there's 592 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:25.139 not a lot of nuance. 593 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:26.510 It's also very difficult with 594 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:31.739 social science methods to capture 595 00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:34.199 contradictions 596 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:36.119 in the way that people understand 597 00:18:36.120 --> 00:18:36.989 themselves. 598 00:18:36.990 --> 00:18:38.219 Because if you're relying on 599 00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:39.220 self-reporting-- 600 00:18:40.770 --> 00:18:42.659 had I had gone out and said, 601 00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:44.669 "I want to talk to 602 00:18:44.670 --> 00:18:46.499 straight-identified men who have sex 603 00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:48.149 with men, or I'm looking for men 604 00:18:48.150 --> 00:18:49.150 having sex with men," I 605 00:18:50.370 --> 00:18:51.959 would have been sitting in gay bars 606 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:52.930 with no one talking to me. 607 00:18:52.931 --> 00:18:55.319 It would have been very challenging. 608 00:18:55.320 --> 00:18:57.329 And so, instead, I made the decision 609 00:18:57.330 --> 00:18:59.219 to look at 610 00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:01.769 a number of case studies, 611 00:19:01.770 --> 00:19:03.899 some historical, some 612 00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:05.159 contemporary. 613 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:06.160 So the book has 614 00:19:07.020 --> 00:19:09.659 a very eclectic archive. 615 00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:11.729 I am looking at personal 616 00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:14.909 ads and media 617 00:19:14.910 --> 00:19:15.910 coverage. 618 00:19:17.850 --> 00:19:19.679 I chose those methods because 619 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:21.659 it really gave me the long view 620 00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:22.918 on this question: how 621 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.089 have a broad 622 00:19:27.090 --> 00:19:29.819 range of stakeholders, not just men 623 00:19:29.820 --> 00:19:31.679 themselves, engaged in these sex 624 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:33.659 practices, but how have sexologists, 625 00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:35.339 psychologists, sociologists, 626 00:19:35.340 --> 00:19:37.499 filmmakers, how have we 627 00:19:37.500 --> 00:19:39.449 collectively 628 00:19:39.450 --> 00:19:41.489 come to understand what 629 00:19:41.490 --> 00:19:43.619 sexual fluidity is 630 00:19:43.620 --> 00:19:45.809 and how it's different when we 631 00:19:45.810 --> 00:19:47.729 are thinking about 632 00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:48.959 women's sexuality and men's 633 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:50.939 sexuality, white people's sexuality 634 00:19:50.940 --> 00:19:53.249 and men of color's sexuality. 635 00:19:53.250 --> 00:19:55.349 And those questions 636 00:19:55.350 --> 00:19:57.899 really lend themselves to 637 00:19:57.900 --> 00:19:59.026 humanistic methods. 638 00:20:00.260 --> 00:20:02.219 Another kind of method question that 639 00:20:02.220 --> 00:20:03.359 I was interested in has to do with 640 00:20:03.360 --> 00:20:04.709 your investment in post-structural 641 00:20:04.710 --> 00:20:05.999 theory. Some of the negative 642 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.159 reactions that you got specifically 643 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:09.599 reacted to that. 644 00:20:09.600 --> 00:20:11.009 Called you a minion of Judith 645 00:20:11.010 --> 00:20:12.929 Butler? That example is one of the 646 00:20:12.930 --> 00:20:14.059 many things you got. 647 00:20:14.060 --> 00:20:15.509 Sure. I'll take it. 648 00:20:15.510 --> 00:20:16.510 Yeah. 649 00:20:17.790 --> 00:20:19.739 I'm wondering whether you 650 00:20:19.740 --> 00:20:21.359 think at all that some of the 651 00:20:21.360 --> 00:20:23.879 reaction to, especially from 652 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:24.880 gay men, 653 00:20:26.100 --> 00:20:28.139 who you see as being 654 00:20:28.140 --> 00:20:29.140 upset that they've been decentered 655 00:20:30.170 --> 00:20:32.089 by this work in queer studies. 656 00:20:32.090 --> 00:20:33.949 Is it possible to see negative 657 00:20:33.950 --> 00:20:35.749 reaction to your book as part of a 658 00:20:35.750 --> 00:20:36.979 broader reaction to 659 00:20:36.980 --> 00:20:38.809 post-structuralism based on the fact 660 00:20:38.810 --> 00:20:40.549 that if we take post-structuralism 661 00:20:40.550 --> 00:20:41.749 seriously, then nobody's at the 662 00:20:41.750 --> 00:20:42.529 center? 663 00:20:42.530 --> 00:20:43.969 Sure, absolutely. 664 00:20:43.970 --> 00:20:46.699 I mean, I think people like 665 00:20:46.700 --> 00:20:48.889 accessible and legitimizing 666 00:20:48.890 --> 00:20:49.890 scholarship. And 667 00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:53.449 sometimes, it's white people 668 00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:55.159 who want that. 669 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:57.049 Sometimes it's men who want that. 670 00:20:57.050 --> 00:20:58.699 Sometimes it's gay men who want 671 00:20:58.700 --> 00:21:00.559 that. I think that many people 672 00:21:00.560 --> 00:21:02.809 don't understand the tenets 673 00:21:02.810 --> 00:21:04.669 of post-structuralist theory, 674 00:21:04.670 --> 00:21:06.109 and they don't understand the 675 00:21:06.110 --> 00:21:08.269 methodology that people might 676 00:21:08.270 --> 00:21:10.249 use to 677 00:21:10.250 --> 00:21:11.209 work in and through a 678 00:21:11.210 --> 00:21:12.259 post-structuralist frame. 679 00:21:12.260 --> 00:21:14.359 And so I understand the feeling 680 00:21:14.360 --> 00:21:16.219 of it being inaccessible. 681 00:21:16.220 --> 00:21:18.259 Certainly, as a sociology graduate 682 00:21:18.260 --> 00:21:20.149 student, I felt that way myself. 683 00:21:20.150 --> 00:21:22.189 And so I actually feel 684 00:21:22.190 --> 00:21:23.959 like part of my work or one of my 685 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:26.449 aims in my work is to translate 686 00:21:26.450 --> 00:21:29.029 humanistic queer scholarship 687 00:21:29.030 --> 00:21:31.069 for a broader audience. 688 00:21:31.070 --> 00:21:32.989 And I think I 689 00:21:32.990 --> 00:21:33.979 do that fairly well. 690 00:21:33.980 --> 00:21:34.969 I try to do that. 691 00:21:34.970 --> 00:21:36.709 So in that regard, I was actually 692 00:21:36.710 --> 00:21:39.049 disappointed that people had 693 00:21:39.050 --> 00:21:40.969 the reaction that they had 694 00:21:40.970 --> 00:21:42.889 because I felt like I 695 00:21:42.890 --> 00:21:44.540 was working 696 00:21:46.520 --> 00:21:48.499 in a liminal space 697 00:21:48.500 --> 00:21:50.599 between a more humanistic framework 698 00:21:50.600 --> 00:21:52.489 and a social science framework. 699 00:21:52.490 --> 00:21:54.439 I also think gay men, in particular, 700 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:56.659 were angry because 701 00:21:56.660 --> 00:21:58.819 there's still a sense among many 702 00:21:58.820 --> 00:22:00.769 gay white men that 703 00:22:00.770 --> 00:22:03.019 they are entitled to the privileges 704 00:22:03.020 --> 00:22:04.939 of white masculinity, and they've 705 00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:06.829 been denied those privileges as 706 00:22:06.830 --> 00:22:08.539 a result of being gay. 707 00:22:08.540 --> 00:22:10.789 And so any framework 708 00:22:10.790 --> 00:22:13.039 that will help to restore 709 00:22:13.040 --> 00:22:14.869 their male privilege and 710 00:22:14.870 --> 00:22:16.849 any scholarship that does that, they 711 00:22:16.850 --> 00:22:19.489 would prioritize that over 712 00:22:19.490 --> 00:22:21.559 scholarship that deconstructs 713 00:22:21.560 --> 00:22:23.629 sexuality or deconstructs gender 714 00:22:23.630 --> 00:22:25.639 or puts women or people 715 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:26.839 of color at the center. 716 00:22:26.840 --> 00:22:28.879 And they basically said 717 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.309 as much in their responses 718 00:22:31.310 --> 00:22:33.199 to me that they felt like 719 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:35.149 gay and lesbian studies had 720 00:22:35.150 --> 00:22:37.639 really deteriorated 721 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.369 with the centering 722 00:22:40.370 --> 00:22:42.319 of trans 723 00:22:42.320 --> 00:22:44.989 and dyke theorizing. 724 00:22:44.990 --> 00:22:46.999 Yeah. I also want to ask you about 725 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:48.509 your first book, Respectively Queer. 726 00:22:49.820 --> 00:22:51.739 In the beginning of Not Gay, you 727 00:22:51.740 --> 00:22:53.089 kind of look back, and maybe it has 728 00:22:53.090 --> 00:22:54.090 to do with the sociology-- it's 729 00:22:55.460 --> 00:22:56.929 a revision of your dissertation. 730 00:22:56.930 --> 00:22:58.039 So maybe it has to do with that kind 731 00:22:58.040 --> 00:22:59.869 of disciplinary background, but 732 00:22:59.870 --> 00:23:01.159 you kind of look back on it and say 733 00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:02.569 it didn't really feel totally like 734 00:23:02.570 --> 00:23:04.429 it was yours, whereas Not 735 00:23:04.430 --> 00:23:05.899 Gay does feel more like that. 736 00:23:05.900 --> 00:23:07.219 You're more excited about it. 737 00:23:07.220 --> 00:23:09.679 Still, I saw a pretty 738 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:11.389 clear continuity in terms of your 739 00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:13.339 interest in recalling radical 740 00:23:13.340 --> 00:23:15.499 impulses in queer politics 741 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:16.482 there. Do you also see it? 742 00:23:16.483 --> 00:23:16.909 I mean, is that-- 743 00:23:16.910 --> 00:23:18.109 I do, yes. 744 00:23:18.110 --> 00:23:19.879 Yeah. So that book is about the 745 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:21.739 corporatization of 746 00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:24.319 queer organizations. 747 00:23:24.320 --> 00:23:26.149 And I was living in L.A. 748 00:23:26.150 --> 00:23:27.319 at the time, so I was looking at 749 00:23:27.320 --> 00:23:29.209 three L.A.-based organizations. 750 00:23:29.210 --> 00:23:31.609 But the story that I told is 751 00:23:31.610 --> 00:23:33.289 a story that's happening nationally, 752 00:23:33.290 --> 00:23:34.608 that as these LGBT-- what 753 00:23:35.630 --> 00:23:37.849 were once grassroots organizations 754 00:23:37.850 --> 00:23:39.919 populated by like a ragtag 755 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:42.229 crew of queer activists, 756 00:23:42.230 --> 00:23:44.329 they've institutionalized 757 00:23:44.330 --> 00:23:46.369 and now they're recruiting from 758 00:23:46.370 --> 00:23:48.259 the private sector to get 759 00:23:48.260 --> 00:23:49.759 their development directors and so 760 00:23:49.760 --> 00:23:50.929 forth. And so you go into these 761 00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:52.639 places, and they're basically gay 762 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:54.079 incorporated. 763 00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:56.299 You might as well be in a bank. 764 00:23:56.300 --> 00:23:58.339 And in fact, the L.A. 765 00:23:58.340 --> 00:23:59.389 Gay and Lesbian Center is in the 766 00:23:59.390 --> 00:24:01.429 former IRS building, and that's 767 00:24:01.430 --> 00:24:03.739 precisely how it feels. 768 00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:05.959 So, yeah, absolutely. 769 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:08.089 That project felt urgent 770 00:24:08.090 --> 00:24:10.099 to me as a description 771 00:24:10.100 --> 00:24:12.079 of the mainstreaming. 772 00:24:12.080 --> 00:24:13.669 And, really, I didn't have quite the 773 00:24:13.670 --> 00:24:14.959 language for this at the time, but 774 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:16.909 it's the neo-liberalization 775 00:24:16.910 --> 00:24:18.469 of the queer movement that I'm 776 00:24:18.470 --> 00:24:20.089 trying to document there. 777 00:24:20.090 --> 00:24:22.129 And yet, because I was 778 00:24:22.130 --> 00:24:24.229 a sociologist, I'm feeling 779 00:24:24.230 --> 00:24:26.119 compelled to rehearse social 780 00:24:26.120 --> 00:24:27.739 movement theory and organizations 781 00:24:27.740 --> 00:24:29.029 theory. And I would have told that 782 00:24:29.030 --> 00:24:30.349 story differently now. 783 00:24:30.350 --> 00:24:32.209 One thing that book raised for 784 00:24:32.210 --> 00:24:34.039 me was about you 785 00:24:34.040 --> 00:24:35.869 and your existence in a university. 786 00:24:35.870 --> 00:24:38.059 I assume that UC Riverside, 787 00:24:38.060 --> 00:24:39.799 your home institution, like every 788 00:24:39.800 --> 00:24:41.749 university, declares 789 00:24:41.750 --> 00:24:43.879 diversity to be a 790 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:45.529 fundamental goal of what it wants to 791 00:24:45.530 --> 00:24:47.299 promote on campus and things like 792 00:24:47.300 --> 00:24:49.399 that. Have you been involved 793 00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:50.424 in any of the university-level 794 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:52.849 efforts to promote diversity on 795 00:24:52.850 --> 00:24:54.049 campus? Because it seems like you 796 00:24:54.050 --> 00:24:56.299 would be in an interesting position 797 00:24:56.300 --> 00:24:58.369 with regard to those efforts. 798 00:24:58.370 --> 00:24:59.959 On the one hand, you worked so much 799 00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:01.759 on diversity. On the other hand, the 800 00:25:01.760 --> 00:25:03.749 particular kind of work that you do 801 00:25:03.750 --> 00:25:04.636 seems like it might not fit so well 802 00:25:04.637 --> 00:25:05.637 with that. 803 00:25:06.620 --> 00:25:07.429 Exactly, yes. 804 00:25:07.430 --> 00:25:09.019 I'm so glad you're asking me this 805 00:25:09.020 --> 00:25:09.979 question. 806 00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:12.289 So, UC Riverside 807 00:25:12.290 --> 00:25:14.809 is a unique campus 808 00:25:14.810 --> 00:25:17.269 nationally in that it's about 70% 809 00:25:17.270 --> 00:25:18.529 students of color. 810 00:25:18.530 --> 00:25:21.289 And I would say 811 00:25:21.290 --> 00:25:22.699 an even greater percentage of 812 00:25:22.700 --> 00:25:24.649 students of color take 813 00:25:24.650 --> 00:25:26.749 Women and Gender Studies courses. 814 00:25:26.750 --> 00:25:29.309 And so, on the one hand, it 815 00:25:29.310 --> 00:25:31.319 means that a kind of 816 00:25:31.320 --> 00:25:34.049 racial justice framework 817 00:25:34.050 --> 00:25:35.910 is already 818 00:25:37.320 --> 00:25:38.429 present in, I think, most classrooms 819 00:25:38.430 --> 00:25:39.515 because the students bring it. 820 00:25:39.516 --> 00:25:41.969 They come to the classroom 821 00:25:41.970 --> 00:25:43.529 with a lot of critical thinking 822 00:25:43.530 --> 00:25:45.359 skills around 823 00:25:45.360 --> 00:25:47.249 race and socioeconomic 824 00:25:47.250 --> 00:25:48.359 class. 825 00:25:48.360 --> 00:25:50.819 And so the campus has no choice 826 00:25:50.820 --> 00:25:52.829 but to rise 827 00:25:52.830 --> 00:25:54.629 to the level of expectation, I 828 00:25:54.630 --> 00:25:57.059 think, around those issues. 829 00:25:57.060 --> 00:25:59.369 Queerness, on the other hand, 830 00:25:59.370 --> 00:26:02.069 I've been really 831 00:26:02.070 --> 00:26:04.109 fascinated and completely 832 00:26:04.110 --> 00:26:06.059 depressed to observe that 833 00:26:06.060 --> 00:26:08.069 the kind of queer 834 00:26:08.070 --> 00:26:09.749 scholarship that the campus is 835 00:26:09.750 --> 00:26:12.269 comfortable promoting 836 00:26:12.270 --> 00:26:14.219 or publicizing in its development 837 00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:16.319 materials and so forth 838 00:26:16.320 --> 00:26:18.509 is queer scholarship that focuses 839 00:26:18.510 --> 00:26:20.069 on a tragic story. 840 00:26:20.070 --> 00:26:22.019 So if you 841 00:26:22.020 --> 00:26:24.629 publish work about homeless 842 00:26:24.630 --> 00:26:26.849 queer youth, if you publish 843 00:26:26.850 --> 00:26:28.919 work about intimate 844 00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:30.539 partner violence in queer 845 00:26:30.540 --> 00:26:32.429 communities, 846 00:26:32.430 --> 00:26:34.409 that is perceived 847 00:26:34.410 --> 00:26:36.659 as not threatening because it's 848 00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:38.609 rehearsing the tragedy of 849 00:26:38.610 --> 00:26:40.679 queerness. But if you write about 850 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:43.049 queer pleasure, God forbid, 851 00:26:43.050 --> 00:26:44.050 or 852 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:46.199 if you want to tell a story about 853 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:48.329 the kind of sex practices that queer 854 00:26:48.330 --> 00:26:50.309 youth are engaged in. 855 00:26:50.310 --> 00:26:51.719 In other words, if you want to talk 856 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:53.609 about how young queer people 857 00:26:53.610 --> 00:26:55.199 live as opposed to how they kill 858 00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:56.969 themselves, then that's going to 859 00:26:56.970 --> 00:26:58.499 make your campus uncomfortable. 860 00:26:58.500 --> 00:27:01.019 And I think we really need to be 861 00:27:01.020 --> 00:27:02.639 calling them to task. 862 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:04.379 I know this is not specific to my 863 00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:06.209 campus. And so 864 00:27:06.210 --> 00:27:08.069 why this-- 865 00:27:08.070 --> 00:27:09.479 not just addiction, it's almost like 866 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:12.449 a fetish for queer trauma 867 00:27:12.450 --> 00:27:14.699 that I think is 868 00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:16.259 one manifestation of 869 00:27:16.260 --> 00:27:18.209 heteronormativity that we can 870 00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:19.829 see very clearly at the university. 871 00:27:19.830 --> 00:27:21.209 Yeah. Well, I want to ask you about 872 00:27:21.210 --> 00:27:23.159 one other focus of yours 873 00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:25.349 in your work, and that is parenting. 874 00:27:25.350 --> 00:27:26.189 You've written a lot about-- you've 875 00:27:26.190 --> 00:27:27.329 published essays. You also have 876 00:27:27.330 --> 00:27:29.099 written a lot of blogs that I really 877 00:27:29.100 --> 00:27:31.229 enjoyed reading about genderqueer 878 00:27:31.230 --> 00:27:32.519 parenting practices and also, in 879 00:27:32.520 --> 00:27:35.069 particular, encouraging children's 880 00:27:35.070 --> 00:27:37.259 right to self-determine gender. 881 00:27:37.260 --> 00:27:38.249 And you work with-- you work with 882 00:27:38.250 --> 00:27:39.989 other parents and talk with them 883 00:27:39.990 --> 00:27:41.459 about ways that they can create 884 00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:43.289 environments that allow children 885 00:27:43.290 --> 00:27:44.129 to do that, too. 886 00:27:44.130 --> 00:27:45.659 What are some of the things that you 887 00:27:45.660 --> 00:27:47.189 talk to parents about doing to 888 00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:48.659 create that kind of environment? 889 00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:50.519 Yeah, so two main things. 890 00:27:50.520 --> 00:27:52.499 One is gender 891 00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:53.399 salience. 892 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:55.769 So I think often 893 00:27:55.770 --> 00:27:58.109 there's a confusion about 894 00:27:58.110 --> 00:27:59.969 whether gender is relevant in 895 00:27:59.970 --> 00:28:01.719 a particular situation. 896 00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:03.629 And parents, not just parents 897 00:28:03.630 --> 00:28:05.519 but also teachers, can get kind 898 00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:07.409 of stumped around this. 899 00:28:07.410 --> 00:28:09.419 So when you need 900 00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:11.159 to take your class of students and 901 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:13.379 divide them into two groups, 902 00:28:13.380 --> 00:28:15.179 do you really want to be saying boys 903 00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:16.859 and girls? Because part what you're 904 00:28:16.860 --> 00:28:19.439 communicating when you do that is 905 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.329 that gender difference is 906 00:28:21.330 --> 00:28:23.459 so salient, that it's so significant 907 00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:26.069 in your mind as this formative adult 908 00:28:26.070 --> 00:28:28.499 that it is the easiest 909 00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:30.329 and first and foremost way 910 00:28:30.330 --> 00:28:32.009 that you're going to differentiate 911 00:28:32.010 --> 00:28:33.119 between people. 912 00:28:33.120 --> 00:28:34.349 And, of course, we understand that 913 00:28:34.350 --> 00:28:36.449 we would not say, "All right, kids, 914 00:28:36.450 --> 00:28:38.369 separate into whites and browns." 915 00:28:38.370 --> 00:28:40.199 We understand the damage 916 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:41.279 that that would do. And yet, 917 00:28:41.280 --> 00:28:42.629 somehow, that's still quite 918 00:28:42.630 --> 00:28:44.069 normalized around gender. 919 00:28:44.070 --> 00:28:45.929 So for me, 920 00:28:45.930 --> 00:28:47.879 it's important that 921 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:50.069 parents recognize that not 922 00:28:50.070 --> 00:28:52.199 doing that isn't just something 923 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.749 that's relevant for parents with 924 00:28:54.750 --> 00:28:56.669 trans or genderqueer children. 925 00:28:56.670 --> 00:28:58.649 It's vitally important 926 00:28:58.650 --> 00:29:00.599 for all of us because this 927 00:29:00.600 --> 00:29:02.579 is where that foundation 928 00:29:02.580 --> 00:29:04.439 gets laid for 929 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:06.419 boys, in particular, to feel quite 930 00:29:06.420 --> 00:29:07.559 alienated from girls. 931 00:29:07.560 --> 00:29:08.489 And then, by the time they get to 932 00:29:08.490 --> 00:29:09.719 college, and they start raping 933 00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:11.279 girls, we wonder what happened. 934 00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:13.589 These were great young men. 935 00:29:13.590 --> 00:29:15.449 Well, what happened is 936 00:29:15.450 --> 00:29:17.759 that you started separating 937 00:29:17.760 --> 00:29:20.729 and then dehumanizing or alienating 938 00:29:20.730 --> 00:29:21.790 boys and girls from one another. 939 00:29:21.791 --> 00:29:23.699 So distinguishing between 940 00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:25.589 when it's really, really unnecessary 941 00:29:25.590 --> 00:29:27.869 to gender children and then 942 00:29:27.870 --> 00:29:29.699 environments in which gender 943 00:29:29.700 --> 00:29:30.659 does feel more relevant. 944 00:29:30.660 --> 00:29:31.739 Like when you're talking about a 945 00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:33.659 child's body with the doctor, how 946 00:29:33.660 --> 00:29:35.939 to do that without presuming their 947 00:29:35.940 --> 00:29:37.799 gender identification if you don't. 948 00:29:40.020 --> 00:29:41.279 So this is gender salience. 949 00:29:41.280 --> 00:29:43.739 And I also work with parents around 950 00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:45.299 genderqueer celebrations. 951 00:29:45.300 --> 00:29:47.279 So that it's not 952 00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:49.319 celebrating queerness, queer 953 00:29:49.320 --> 00:29:51.209 history, queer 954 00:29:51.210 --> 00:29:53.099 accomplishments, the beauty of 955 00:29:53.100 --> 00:29:55.049 queerness is not just for queer 956 00:29:55.050 --> 00:29:56.339 parents. It should be for all 957 00:29:56.340 --> 00:29:57.839 parents in the same way that we 958 00:29:57.840 --> 00:29:58.950 introduce children to 959 00:30:00.060 --> 00:30:01.439 books and things from other 960 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.329 cultures. I'm an advocate 961 00:30:03.330 --> 00:30:04.739 that we do that around queerness as 962 00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:05.669 well. 963 00:30:05.670 --> 00:30:06.689 Yeah. And one of the points that you 964 00:30:06.690 --> 00:30:08.459 made on your blog that I found very 965 00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:09.929 interesting is that if you're not 966 00:30:09.930 --> 00:30:11.459 proactively doing this, then the 967 00:30:11.460 --> 00:30:13.109 default is heteronormativity. 968 00:30:13.110 --> 00:30:14.459 Exactly. 969 00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:16.409 Well, so your current work is titled 970 00:30:16.410 --> 00:30:18.179 The Failure of Heterosexuality: How 971 00:30:18.180 --> 00:30:19.829 Sexism Doomed the World's Most 972 00:30:19.830 --> 00:30:20.939 Cherished Union and Hid the 973 00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:22.019 Wreckage. How's it coming? 974 00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:25.259 Well, one thing I can say is 975 00:30:25.260 --> 00:30:26.999 that I'm having so much fun writing 976 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.018 this book. 977 00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:28.067 Oh that's good. 978 00:30:28.068 --> 00:30:29.979 It's just been so 979 00:30:29.980 --> 00:30:31.119 pleasurable. 980 00:30:31.120 --> 00:30:32.049 It's coming along. 981 00:30:32.050 --> 00:30:33.549 I mean, I'm in the early stages with 982 00:30:33.550 --> 00:30:35.439 this book. It's again 983 00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:38.319 a strange archive. 984 00:30:38.320 --> 00:30:40.449 So the basic 985 00:30:40.450 --> 00:30:42.369 argument in this book, it's 986 00:30:42.370 --> 00:30:44.619 a bit of a rant, but it's that 987 00:30:44.620 --> 00:30:46.809 despite the story we tell about 988 00:30:46.810 --> 00:30:48.999 the tragedy or in contrast 989 00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:50.319 with the story we tell about how 990 00:30:50.320 --> 00:30:52.239 tragic and difficult it is 991 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:54.279 to be queer, that in my own 992 00:30:54.280 --> 00:30:55.959 life and for many, many queer 993 00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:58.299 people, we witness 994 00:30:58.300 --> 00:31:00.579 the miseries, the utter miseries 995 00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:02.919 of heterosexuality and feel profound 996 00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:05.559 gratitude that we have escaped them. 997 00:31:05.560 --> 00:31:07.659 And so this book 998 00:31:07.660 --> 00:31:09.849 is about me documenting 999 00:31:09.850 --> 00:31:11.679 those miseries through a 1000 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:13.149 queer lens, through my own queer 1001 00:31:13.150 --> 00:31:14.229 lens. 1002 00:31:14.230 --> 00:31:16.209 And to do that, I'm 1003 00:31:16.210 --> 00:31:17.349 looking very closely at what I call 1004 00:31:17.350 --> 00:31:19.389 the heterosexual repair industry, 1005 00:31:19.390 --> 00:31:20.390 which is as 1006 00:31:22.030 --> 00:31:24.609 straightness repeatedly fails 1007 00:31:24.610 --> 00:31:27.009 to function or to deliver 1008 00:31:27.010 --> 00:31:28.929 on the promises of heteronormativity 1009 00:31:28.930 --> 00:31:30.219 as straight relationships fail to 1010 00:31:30.220 --> 00:31:32.109 deliver, we see all 1011 00:31:32.110 --> 00:31:34.419 of these-- an industry emerge 1012 00:31:34.420 --> 00:31:36.519 to help smooth that over 1013 00:31:36.520 --> 00:31:38.079 for straight people or to justify it 1014 00:31:38.080 --> 00:31:39.729 or to distract from it. 1015 00:31:39.730 --> 00:31:41.619 So I'm looking at doing a kind 1016 00:31:41.620 --> 00:31:43.119 of a 20th-century survey of 1017 00:31:43.120 --> 00:31:45.669 self-help books for straight 1018 00:31:45.670 --> 00:31:48.519 people, mostly for married people. 1019 00:31:48.520 --> 00:31:50.619 I also spent three years-- there's 1020 00:31:50.620 --> 00:31:51.939 an ethnographic component to this 1021 00:31:51.940 --> 00:31:53.949 book. I spent three years 1022 00:31:53.950 --> 00:31:56.259 inside the pick-up artist 1023 00:31:56.260 --> 00:31:58.509 and seduction community, 1024 00:31:58.510 --> 00:32:00.339 which started out as a community and 1025 00:32:00.340 --> 00:32:02.049 now really is an industry. 1026 00:32:02.050 --> 00:32:03.609 So whereas the self-help books are 1027 00:32:03.610 --> 00:32:05.589 often-- the target audience is 1028 00:32:05.590 --> 00:32:08.049 women, men now 1029 00:32:08.050 --> 00:32:10.059 are the consumers 1030 00:32:10.060 --> 00:32:11.949 of what are often called seduction 1031 00:32:11.950 --> 00:32:13.329 boot camps. So they'll spend a 1032 00:32:13.330 --> 00:32:15.249 weekend paying somewhere between 1033 00:32:15.250 --> 00:32:17.379 $1,500 and $3,000 to 1034 00:32:17.380 --> 00:32:19.209 learn how to seduce 1035 00:32:19.210 --> 00:32:21.159 women. I also did some 1036 00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:23.169 interviews with queer people 1037 00:32:23.170 --> 00:32:25.089 about what they 1038 00:32:25.090 --> 00:32:26.919 dislike about straight people 1039 00:32:26.920 --> 00:32:28.479 and straight culture. 1040 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:30.639 And then, I kind of wrap 1041 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:32.949 the book up with some reflections on 1042 00:32:32.950 --> 00:32:34.989 what I call deep heterosexuality 1043 00:32:34.990 --> 00:32:37.179 or what heterosexual 1044 00:32:37.180 --> 00:32:39.189 justice might look like. 1045 00:32:39.190 --> 00:32:40.389 Talking about writing about the 1046 00:32:40.390 --> 00:32:42.249 positive experiences that 1047 00:32:42.250 --> 00:32:43.250 you've had, being queer reminds 1048 00:32:44.290 --> 00:32:46.359 me of what we were talking 1049 00:32:46.360 --> 00:32:47.709 about on the university campus. 1050 00:32:47.710 --> 00:32:49.149 That's kind of like promoting those 1051 00:32:49.150 --> 00:32:50.409 stories or things that could help on 1052 00:32:50.410 --> 00:32:51.969 those campuses and in a lot of 1053 00:32:51.970 --> 00:32:52.689 spaces. 1054 00:32:52.690 --> 00:32:54.129 I know. And it's amazing. 1055 00:32:54.130 --> 00:32:56.259 I mean, my work has 1056 00:32:56.260 --> 00:32:58.209 been persistently 1057 00:32:58.210 --> 00:32:59.210 unfundable. 1058 00:33:00.790 --> 00:33:02.859 And so I'm just so struck 1059 00:33:02.860 --> 00:33:05.559 by how many people 1060 00:33:05.560 --> 00:33:07.359 seem to like my work and want to 1061 00:33:07.360 --> 00:33:08.949 read my work. But, certainly, my 1062 00:33:08.950 --> 00:33:10.149 university doesn't want to promote 1063 00:33:10.150 --> 00:33:11.709 my work, and no one wants to fund my 1064 00:33:11.710 --> 00:33:12.790 work. And so 1065 00:33:14.110 --> 00:33:16.899 something is going on here around 1066 00:33:16.900 --> 00:33:19.119 what we consider to be 1067 00:33:19.120 --> 00:33:20.979 urgent scholarship 1068 00:33:20.980 --> 00:33:23.259 and scholarship 1069 00:33:23.260 --> 00:33:24.729 that we should throw money behind. 1070 00:33:24.730 --> 00:33:26.829 And I think often the feeling is 1071 00:33:26.830 --> 00:33:27.830 that tragedy 1072 00:33:29.380 --> 00:33:31.089 is where it's at. 1073 00:33:31.090 --> 00:33:32.799 And so, in a way, it's almost a kind 1074 00:33:32.800 --> 00:33:34.539 of cheeky play on a little joke with 1075 00:33:34.540 --> 00:33:36.279 myself to say, "Okay, well, I'm 1076 00:33:36.280 --> 00:33:37.389 going to write about the tragedy of 1077 00:33:37.390 --> 00:33:38.919 heterosexuality because that's the 1078 00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:40.329 tragedy that I see." 1079 00:33:41.350 --> 00:33:42.999 Well, that kind of turning the 1080 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.499 tables worked really well in Not 1081 00:33:44.500 --> 00:33:46.089 Gay. It's a really great book, and 1082 00:33:46.090 --> 00:33:47.499 I'm sure we all look forward to your 1083 00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:48.549 coming book as well. 1084 00:33:48.550 --> 00:33:49.239 Thank you. 1085 00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:50.319 Jane Ward, thanks so much for being 1086 00:33:50.320 --> 00:33:50.619 here. 1087 00:33:50.620 --> 00:33:51.620 It's my pleasure. 1088 00:33:58.350 --> 00:33:59.639 That's it for this edition of Being 1089 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:00.779 Human. 1090 00:34:00.780 --> 00:34:02.189 This episode was produced by Matt 1091 00:34:02.190 --> 00:34:04.019 Moret, Undergraduate Media Fellow at 1092 00:34:04.020 --> 00:34:05.639 the University of Pittsburgh. 1093 00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:06.989 Stay tuned next time when my guest 1094 00:34:06.990 --> 00:34:08.669 will be Mabel Wilson, professor of 1095 00:34:08.670 --> 00:34:10.349 Architecture at Columbia University. 1096 00:34:10.350 --> 00:34:11.350 Thanks for listening.
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