Law, Culture, and Activism: An Interview with Lawrence Liang

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Hello and welcome to the latest

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installment of Being Human from the

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University of Pittsburgh.

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This series is devoted to exploring

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the humanities, their connections to

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other disciplines, and their value

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in the public world.

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I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of

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the Humanities Center at Pitt.

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My guest today is Lawrence Liang, a

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legal scholar and activist based in

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Bangalore, India.

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For Lawrence Liang, studying law

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means more than studying what

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happens inside a courtroom or a law

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firm.

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"Laws," he says, "are impossible to

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understand without understanding the

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culture from which they grow."

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These connections are clear in

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Liang's work on intellectual

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property law, which combines an

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awareness of contemporary copyright

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issues with an understanding of the

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deep conceptions of identity and

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selfhood from which these issues

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arise.

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Throughout his career, Dr. Liang has

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worked as an activist as well as a

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scholar. In Bangalore, he

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founded the Alternative Law Forum, a

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nonprofit collective that provides

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legal services to various

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marginalized groups.

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He's the co-founder of two

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open-access video archives that make

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annotated footage widely available

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for noncommercial use.

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And he regularly writes and speaks

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about pressing political issues in

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India.

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To put it simply, he's a perfect

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example of what a public

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intellectual in the 21st century

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looks like.

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And I began by asking him about his

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academic training and how it

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prepared him for his work as a

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scholar, lawyer, and activist.

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So my undergraduate training and my

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masters was in law, and

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I trained to be a lawyer, but I

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ended up doing a Ph.D.

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in film studies.

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And I think part of the reason for

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that move was even when I was

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doing law, I approached

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or entered the world of law

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primarily as a lover of literature.

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And so here I was, I mean,

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encountering the world

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of the law, which seemed very

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different from the world of lawyers

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that I encountered in fiction.

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So whether it was through Kafka

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or Dickens, you had a certain image

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of justice or an idea of what

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motivated you to become a lawyer.

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And then, you realize that in the

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study of law, there was no

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connection between the two.

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So to kind of retain my own

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sanity while I was at law school, I

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decided to abandon classes on

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Saturday and ended up doing

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kind of a three years English honors

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program, primarily in modern

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poetry and in comparative

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literature.

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And that was initially a way

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of actually kind of segregating

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between my passion and my

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profession.

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But as I started studying

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them in parallel, I realized that

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the only way to actually do this,

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both in terms of a

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way that was intellectually exciting

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but also one that was kind of truer

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to what my own interests were to

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bring them together rather than keep

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them apart.

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Yeah.

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Well, you have an early essay you

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wrote called Conceptualizing Law and

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Culture, where you talk about the

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way that the two are combined

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and should be combined and how both

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legal studies and humanities

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gain from being in contact with each

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other. Can you talk a little bit

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about what those two areas of study

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gained from that contact.

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In a narrow technical sense, I mean,

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the emergence of the law as some

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kind of an isolated,

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self-contained discipline of

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inquiry is a relatively new

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phenomenon.

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I mean, in a way, the old tradition

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of looking at the law as being very

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much a part of the question of the

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humanities, or more broadly,

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the question of life.

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The important challenge was, okay,

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if one had to think about not of

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legal studies alone but

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of a cultural study of law, which is

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to say that the law is steeped in

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ideas of value. It's steeped in

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ideas of meaning. And how do

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people actually make sense then of

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the legal institutions and of

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institutions of justice, not merely

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in a technical sense but really in a

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cultural sense?

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And that, for me, was what the

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excitement of bringing together, in

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a way, a kind of a cultural studies

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and legal studies together was.

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Sure.

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I wonder, in that same essay, there

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are examples of Indian film stars,

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in particular, the issue of

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publicity rights, that around which

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you were able to kind of talk about

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thinking about culture and law

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together. Can you talk a little bit

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about that kind of the publicity

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rights issue and how those two

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things kind of allow us-- how

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humanities and legal scholarship

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allow us to understand that issue

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more fully.

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So my specialization and my

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kind of professional inclination

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kind of ended up veering towards

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intellectual property law.

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And intellectual property laws is

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nothing if not a kind of

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a legal theory of culture.

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So if you take the domain of

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copyright, I mean, it deals with

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literary works. It deals with

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artistic works.

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It deals with musical works.

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But they don't deal with them merely

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as property, and they don't really

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deal with them as kind of legal

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artifacts.

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They actually have to have an

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aesthetic theory before they have a

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legal theory of what these products

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are about.

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So in that article, I was looking at

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this entire question of the question

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of the relationship between fans,

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appropriation, and who owns

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the identity of a star.

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Now, in the U.S., you have the idea

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of publicity rights where celebrity,

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in a way, own their publicity

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as a commodifiable right.

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This is not a right that actually

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exists in India. And that period of

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time was the time when the right was

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being articulated into

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the provisions of Indian copyright

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law with a whole deal of ambiguity

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and ambivalence about what that

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actually meant.

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And in a culture where fandom

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has been a very crucial aspect

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of political mobilization, the

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implications of granting

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property rights in

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the frame of a star had huge

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implications. And I felt that that

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answer could not come from the law.

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It had to come from a domain

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that understood both the cultural

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dimensions as well as the legal.

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Yeah. Well, I want to ask you one other

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question about

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the particular kind of educational

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background you bring to your work,

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and that is that you freely cite

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French theorists in your work,

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Derrida, Barthes, Foucault, they all

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come up. And I wonder does

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that particular tradition of

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intellectual work contribute

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something valuable to the work

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that you do as a legal scholar and a

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cultural thinker.

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Oh, absolutely.

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When you're dealing with

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intellectual property law and

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dealing with copyright law, you

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suddenly realize the absolute

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centrality of the figure of the

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author. Right?

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So the idea of the romantic genius

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creating something out of nothing is

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so crucial to the mythology

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of copyright law.

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And then, outside of class, your

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reading boxes, declaration

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of the death of the author, or

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Foucault's questioning of the

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function, the author function, etc.

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And you start seeing the

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connections, and you start

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realizing, oh, this is a very kind

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of an important conversation out

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here. And that led me to exploring

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the works of scholars

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like Peter Jaszi here

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and Martha Woodmansee, who is a

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literary historian.

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And they had actually come together

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to create, in a way, a kind of law

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and literature approach to copyright

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law, which was very influential for

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me at that point of time.

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So I feel that there's a certain

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kind of a richness that one can

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bring into one's understanding of

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the technical domains.

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The question is, of course, of

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translation.

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I mean, French, poor

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structural theory doesn't translate

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well into any domain, and

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particularly in the legal domain.

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But scholars like and

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philosophers like Derrida have been

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very crucial in terms of their

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thinking of questions of law as

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well.

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So Derrida's very, very

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influential article on the Mystical

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Foundations of Authority has left

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a lasting imprint on the way that

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people distinguish,

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and importantly so, between the

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legal and claims

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of justice.

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So I think that's been a lasting

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influence on my own work as well.

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Well, I want to follow up on your

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mentioning intellectual property

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because this is one of the things

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that you've written about, one of

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the central things you've written

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about in the law.

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I've read you talking about the

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fact that intellectual property has

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become more urgent in the last 20

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years than ever before.

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Can you talk about what's happened

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in the last 20 years that has made

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that issue as urgent as it is?

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I mean, at a very large kind of a

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structural level, it's the

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transformation in kind of modes

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of production where increasingly,

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I mean, the entire question, for

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example, of value and where

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value accrues from with

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the rise

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in outsourcing, manufacturing

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in two kind of countries with much

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cheaper labor.

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The question of the value that

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arises from the mode of production

287
00:07:58.590 --> 00:07:59.590
in terms of the actual old-fashioned

288
00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:02.549
industrial form

289
00:08:02.550 --> 00:08:04.105
began to take on less kind of

290
00:08:04.106 --> 00:08:05.106
salience.

291
00:08:05.850 --> 00:08:07.109
And it really became, in terms of

292
00:08:07.110 --> 00:08:08.609
the division of labor, where if you

293
00:08:08.610 --> 00:08:10.799
were, for example, in Nike,

294
00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:12.479
what is really crucial for you was

295
00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:14.159
the swish and the brand.

296
00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:16.169
It wasn't really the actual

297
00:08:16.170 --> 00:08:17.999
T-shirt or the shoe that

298
00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:18.989
you produced because that could be

299
00:08:18.990 --> 00:08:20.609
produced for very cheap. So the

300
00:08:20.610 --> 00:08:23.189
management of the intangible value

301
00:08:23.190 --> 00:08:25.049
of commodities took on an important

302
00:08:25.050 --> 00:08:26.249
salience. And that kind of, in the

303
00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:27.599
political economy of the world, it

304
00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:29.249
became really the division between

305
00:08:29.250 --> 00:08:30.209
the global north and the global

306
00:08:30.210 --> 00:08:30.989
south.

307
00:08:30.990 --> 00:08:32.548
And I think that if you take other

308
00:08:32.549 --> 00:08:33.989
domains, I mean, where it's much

309
00:08:33.990 --> 00:08:35.699
more a question of life and death,

310
00:08:35.700 --> 00:08:37.379
the question of access to medicine

311
00:08:37.380 --> 00:08:38.533
and the high cost of medicines.

312
00:08:38.534 --> 00:08:40.439
So the pharmaceutical

313
00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:41.729
companies would claim that you need

314
00:08:41.730 --> 00:08:43.229
a huge amount of investment, which

315
00:08:43.230 --> 00:08:44.879
is what justifies stronger patent

316
00:08:44.880 --> 00:08:46.979
regimes, to ensure

317
00:08:46.980 --> 00:08:48.689
that there's a return of investment.

318
00:08:48.690 --> 00:08:49.949
At the same time, if you actually

319
00:08:49.950 --> 00:08:51.149
look at the political history of

320
00:08:51.150 --> 00:08:52.379
what's happened, it's really a

321
00:08:52.380 --> 00:08:54.869
transformation where increasingly

322
00:08:54.870 --> 00:08:56.159
the amount of money that is spent is

323
00:08:56.160 --> 00:08:57.929
on marketing and less on research

324
00:08:57.930 --> 00:08:59.549
and development, etc..

325
00:08:59.550 --> 00:09:00.749
And what this means at a global

326
00:09:00.750 --> 00:09:02.609
level in terms of the HIV pandemic

327
00:09:02.610 --> 00:09:04.799
or the cancer bomb that has burst,

328
00:09:04.800 --> 00:09:06.419
where intellectual property battles

329
00:09:06.420 --> 00:09:08.399
are really at the foreground, both

330
00:09:08.400 --> 00:09:09.400
of questions of life and death, as well as

331
00:09:10.290 --> 00:09:11.099
of culture.

332
00:09:11.100 --> 00:09:12.299
Sure.

333
00:09:12.300 --> 00:09:14.429
Well, one recent case

334
00:09:14.430 --> 00:09:15.449
that has specifically to do with

335
00:09:15.450 --> 00:09:16.889
access to knowledge and intellectual

336
00:09:16.890 --> 00:09:18.419
property is the Delhi University

337
00:09:18.420 --> 00:09:19.529
photocopy case.

338
00:09:19.530 --> 00:09:20.339
And you were involved in that.

339
00:09:20.340 --> 00:09:21.269
I wonder, can you talk a little bit

340
00:09:21.270 --> 00:09:23.069
about what that case is, the details

341
00:09:23.070 --> 00:09:24.329
of it? And then, I'm interested in

342
00:09:24.330 --> 00:09:26.159
hearing your involvement as well.

343
00:09:26.160 --> 00:09:27.160
So this is a case that will

344
00:09:28.230 --> 00:09:30.359
be very familiar to

345
00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:32.369
people in the US because, in many

346
00:09:32.370 --> 00:09:34.049
ways, you guys had the same battles

347
00:09:34.050 --> 00:09:35.969
but a couple of decades earlier.

348
00:09:35.970 --> 00:09:37.949
And it's about the extent

349
00:09:37.950 --> 00:09:39.599
to which academic material and

350
00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:40.769
scholarly material can be

351
00:09:40.770 --> 00:09:42.059
photocopied and circulated in

352
00:09:42.060 --> 00:09:43.469
classrooms.

353
00:09:43.470 --> 00:09:45.899
And you can imagine in terms of

354
00:09:45.900 --> 00:09:47.798
the-- for a country with as sharply

355
00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:48.799
divided

356
00:09:49.650 --> 00:09:51.689
in terms of inequality as India is,

357
00:09:51.690 --> 00:09:52.889
the question of access to learning

358
00:09:52.890 --> 00:09:54.809
materials is a very crucial one

359
00:09:54.810 --> 00:09:55.993
to be able to actually exercise your

360
00:09:57.480 --> 00:09:58.679
fundamental right to education.

361
00:09:59.790 --> 00:10:01.559
So we were looking at this case as a

362
00:10:01.560 --> 00:10:02.939
very important test case because it

363
00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:05.129
was a case that was brought about by

364
00:10:05.130 --> 00:10:06.749
the leading academic publishers in

365
00:10:06.750 --> 00:10:08.669
the world - Oxford, Cambridge,

366
00:10:08.670 --> 00:10:10.589
Taylor & Francis - against a very

367
00:10:10.590 --> 00:10:12.599
small photocopy shop that operates

368
00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:14.129
in Delhi University.

369
00:10:14.130 --> 00:10:15.599
And they were targeted primarily for

370
00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:16.649
their efficiency.

371
00:10:16.650 --> 00:10:18.239
This is a photocopy shop that almost

372
00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.189
every student who's studied in Delhi

373
00:10:20.190 --> 00:10:22.079
relies on to

374
00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:23.909
access, I mean, books which are

375
00:10:23.910 --> 00:10:25.619
otherwise absolutely unaffordable.

376
00:10:25.620 --> 00:10:27.059
I mean, to give you one simple

377
00:10:27.060 --> 00:10:28.060
example.

378
00:10:29.070 --> 00:10:30.929
And we cited this fact in

379
00:10:30.930 --> 00:10:33.299
the courtroom, one particular course

380
00:10:33.300 --> 00:10:35.129
within a master's program in

381
00:10:35.130 --> 00:10:37.469
sociology, 22 books prescribed,

382
00:10:37.470 --> 00:10:38.729
a lot of them, of course,

383
00:10:38.730 --> 00:10:40.559
exorbitantly priced, the

384
00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:41.819
total cost of which would be close

385
00:10:41.820 --> 00:10:43.799
to like $1,500 just for that one

386
00:10:43.800 --> 00:10:44.079
course.

387
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:44.639
One course.

388
00:10:44.640 --> 00:10:46.469
Which, in the Indian context, is

389
00:10:46.470 --> 00:10:48.569
absolutely ridiculous.

390
00:10:48.570 --> 00:10:50.369
So the publishers went to court

391
00:10:50.370 --> 00:10:51.929
arguing that coursepacks were a

392
00:10:51.930 --> 00:10:53.309
violation of their rights and a

393
00:10:53.310 --> 00:10:54.569
violation of copyright.

394
00:10:54.570 --> 00:10:56.159
We were arguing that fair dealing

395
00:10:56.160 --> 00:10:58.469
and fair use in India includes

396
00:10:58.470 --> 00:11:00.449
an educational exception, which

397
00:11:00.450 --> 00:11:01.739
does not lead on a quantitative

398
00:11:01.740 --> 00:11:03.629
restriction. It's about the end

399
00:11:03.630 --> 00:11:05.519
use of the material, and

400
00:11:05.520 --> 00:11:06.749
if it was for education, then this

401
00:11:06.750 --> 00:11:08.969
is an exception to copyright law.

402
00:11:08.970 --> 00:11:10.439
And so, we won that in the Delhi

403
00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:12.149
High Court before a single judge

404
00:11:12.150 --> 00:11:14.099
bench. The publishers went on appeal

405
00:11:14.100 --> 00:11:15.389
to a division bench, which is two

406
00:11:15.390 --> 00:11:16.550
judges, and we won it there as well.

407
00:11:16.551 --> 00:11:18.419
We hope that they won't go

408
00:11:18.420 --> 00:11:19.499
to the Supreme Court.

409
00:11:19.500 --> 00:11:21.509
It's easy for me, I think, to

410
00:11:21.510 --> 00:11:23.699
divide this into what

411
00:11:23.700 --> 00:11:25.749
you working on behalf of

412
00:11:25.750 --> 00:11:26.919
access to knowledge.

413
00:11:26.920 --> 00:11:28.539
The publisher is being motivated by

414
00:11:28.540 --> 00:11:30.339
greed in other things.

415
00:11:30.340 --> 00:11:31.340
Things

416
00:11:34.570 --> 00:11:35.710
we don't want, things we don't like.

417
00:11:38.110 --> 00:11:41.199
What is the best, most charitable

418
00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.119
interpretation of their case

419
00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.099
for why this is something

420
00:11:45.100 --> 00:11:46.269
that they should continue to appeal

421
00:11:46.270 --> 00:11:47.649
and fight for that that you can

422
00:11:47.650 --> 00:11:48.099
muster?

423
00:11:48.100 --> 00:11:49.989
I mean, to be fair to academic

424
00:11:49.990 --> 00:11:51.609
publishers, academic publishing

425
00:11:51.610 --> 00:11:53.589
isn't the most lucrative

426
00:11:53.590 --> 00:11:55.179
business to be in.

427
00:11:55.180 --> 00:11:57.159
It is a difficult terrain to operate

428
00:11:57.160 --> 00:11:58.989
from because the number of sales

429
00:11:58.990 --> 00:12:00.159
that you're talking about is going

430
00:12:00.160 --> 00:12:02.679
to be always very, very low.

431
00:12:02.680 --> 00:12:03.729
But I think it's important for the

432
00:12:03.730 --> 00:12:05.859
publishers to recognize that

433
00:12:05.860 --> 00:12:07.749
it's not teachers and students

434
00:12:07.750 --> 00:12:09.369
who are their greatest enemies.

435
00:12:09.370 --> 00:12:11.199
They're their greatest allies.

436
00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:12.399
For us, the argument that we were

437
00:12:12.400 --> 00:12:13.929
trying to make, which is not just a

438
00:12:13.930 --> 00:12:15.789
legal argument. It's really an

439
00:12:15.790 --> 00:12:17.649
ethical argument, which is that

440
00:12:17.650 --> 00:12:19.659
the only way in which you can ensure

441
00:12:19.660 --> 00:12:21.489
a market for books is

442
00:12:21.490 --> 00:12:22.959
by ensuring that there are a larger

443
00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:23.979
number of readers.

444
00:12:23.980 --> 00:12:25.179
The only way in which we are going

445
00:12:25.180 --> 00:12:26.259
to ensure the large number of

446
00:12:26.260 --> 00:12:28.149
readers is by ensuring that there

447
00:12:28.150 --> 00:12:30.009
are students who are able to access

448
00:12:30.010 --> 00:12:31.839
material at a time when

449
00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:33.459
they are students. They're going to

450
00:12:33.460 --> 00:12:34.539
be a future market.

451
00:12:34.540 --> 00:12:35.919
And that, I think, is the larger

452
00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:37.059
argument, which is important.

453
00:12:37.060 --> 00:12:38.769
I think it's also important to

454
00:12:38.770 --> 00:12:39.770
locate this.

455
00:12:39.940 --> 00:12:41.259
Wouldn't the transformation of the

456
00:12:41.260 --> 00:12:43.479
academic publishing industry-- way

457
00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:45.459
earlier, if the model was about a

458
00:12:45.460 --> 00:12:47.829
low-cost book or a low-price

459
00:12:47.830 --> 00:12:49.719
book with the hope that this

460
00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:51.669
would reach a wide market in terms

461
00:12:51.670 --> 00:12:53.199
of students?

462
00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:54.489
The transformation has really been

463
00:12:54.490 --> 00:12:56.619
in terms of de-risking

464
00:12:56.620 --> 00:12:59.079
by making it into a high-cost,

465
00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:00.729
low-volume model.

466
00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:01.989
Right? So you only need to sell to

467
00:13:01.990 --> 00:13:03.969
institutions like libraries and not

468
00:13:03.970 --> 00:13:05.829
really to students, which makes

469
00:13:05.830 --> 00:13:07.929
it much easier for you in terms of

470
00:13:07.930 --> 00:13:09.819
overall cost, etc., of running the

471
00:13:09.820 --> 00:13:11.649
business. But that's not the way

472
00:13:11.650 --> 00:13:12.909
in which you're going to address

473
00:13:12.910 --> 00:13:15.039
creating a wide pool of readers.

474
00:13:15.040 --> 00:13:17.019
Yeah. Well, one of the other things

475
00:13:17.020 --> 00:13:18.639
that I want to ask you about your

476
00:13:18.640 --> 00:13:20.649
concerns the breadth with which

477
00:13:20.650 --> 00:13:23.259
you approach intellectual property.

478
00:13:23.260 --> 00:13:24.399
And I'm thinking, in particular,

479
00:13:24.400 --> 00:13:25.839
here of the kind of attention that

480
00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:27.219
you pay to the philosophical

481
00:13:27.220 --> 00:13:28.989
assumptions about property and about

482
00:13:28.990 --> 00:13:30.519
selfhood and identity that need to

483
00:13:30.520 --> 00:13:32.499
be made in order to make

484
00:13:32.500 --> 00:13:33.849
certain kinds of claims about

485
00:13:33.850 --> 00:13:35.229
copyright.

486
00:13:35.230 --> 00:13:36.669
This is, in particular, I'm thinking

487
00:13:36.670 --> 00:13:38.379
of an essay you have, great title,

488
00:13:38.380 --> 00:13:39.819
called The Man Who Mistook His Wife

489
00:13:39.820 --> 00:13:41.049
for a Book.

490
00:13:41.050 --> 00:13:42.639
Can you talk a little bit about that

491
00:13:42.640 --> 00:13:43.959
essay and maybe explain the title

492
00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:46.029
too, and where it comes from?

493
00:13:46.030 --> 00:13:48.069
So the essay, it is an exploration

494
00:13:48.070 --> 00:13:48.909
into the question of the

495
00:13:48.910 --> 00:13:50.409
relationship between property and

496
00:13:50.410 --> 00:13:52.659
personhood, because obviously

497
00:13:52.660 --> 00:13:54.249
crucial to the imagination of

498
00:13:54.250 --> 00:13:55.809
intellectual property is also the

499
00:13:55.810 --> 00:13:57.279
notion of the self.

500
00:13:57.280 --> 00:13:59.109
And this comes from the kind of the

501
00:13:59.110 --> 00:14:00.519
Western liberal tradition,

502
00:14:00.520 --> 00:14:01.869
particularly in people like John

503
00:14:01.870 --> 00:14:03.069
Locke.

504
00:14:03.070 --> 00:14:04.389
And in the essay, I try to point out

505
00:14:04.390 --> 00:14:05.919
how in Locke, there's a tension

506
00:14:05.920 --> 00:14:07.076
between the self and the own as

507
00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.359
kind of being interchangeable.

508
00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:12.249
And in the domain of

509
00:14:12.250 --> 00:14:13.899
tangible property, and particularly

510
00:14:13.900 --> 00:14:15.909
in terms of land, this

511
00:14:15.910 --> 00:14:17.259
was the fulcrum on which a

512
00:14:17.260 --> 00:14:19.419
philosophy of property

513
00:14:19.420 --> 00:14:20.889
and identity was actually

514
00:14:20.890 --> 00:14:22.029
articulated.

515
00:14:22.030 --> 00:14:23.469
And I was interested in exploring

516
00:14:23.470 --> 00:14:24.939
what the limits of that when A.

517
00:14:24.940 --> 00:14:26.169
when you translate this into the

518
00:14:26.170 --> 00:14:27.874
domain of the intangibles and B.

519
00:14:27.875 --> 00:14:29.289
when you translate it into a

520
00:14:29.290 --> 00:14:30.849
non-Western context.

521
00:14:30.850 --> 00:14:31.899
And the title of the essay is a

522
00:14:31.900 --> 00:14:33.969
reference to a book that I really

523
00:14:33.970 --> 00:14:36.039
love, which is Oliver Sacks's The

524
00:14:36.040 --> 00:14:37.869
Man Who Mistook His Wife for a

525
00:14:37.870 --> 00:14:39.729
Hat, in which he speaks about this

526
00:14:39.730 --> 00:14:41.199
particular neurological condition in

527
00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:42.946
which a person is unable to conceive

528
00:14:42.947 --> 00:14:43.947
of

529
00:14:45.880 --> 00:14:47.859
people that he meets in

530
00:14:47.860 --> 00:14:49.629
terms of their totality of how they

531
00:14:49.630 --> 00:14:51.099
look. So he constantly keeps

532
00:14:51.100 --> 00:14:52.869
mistaking them because certain

533
00:14:52.870 --> 00:14:54.909
elements or features of their face

534
00:14:54.910 --> 00:14:56.799
get foregrounded, which is why

535
00:14:56.800 --> 00:14:58.989
he mistakes his wife for a hat.

536
00:14:58.990 --> 00:15:00.519
And so, I was here looking at the

537
00:15:00.520 --> 00:15:02.079
question of if one had to equate

538
00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:03.999
between tangible and intangible

539
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:05.799
property as though they were equally

540
00:15:05.800 --> 00:15:07.749
kind of the same or translatable

541
00:15:07.750 --> 00:15:08.870
in any easy manner.

542
00:15:08.871 --> 00:15:11.079
You run the mistake of

543
00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:12.976
mistaking relationalities for

544
00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:16.599
relations of property when it comes

545
00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:17.949
to questions of knowledge.

546
00:15:17.950 --> 00:15:19.809
And so, what does it mean to make

547
00:15:19.810 --> 00:15:21.909
the claim that I own a pen

548
00:15:21.910 --> 00:15:24.249
as opposed to I own a poem?

549
00:15:24.250 --> 00:15:25.449
Right? So the question of the

550
00:15:25.450 --> 00:15:26.979
ownership in the former might be an

551
00:15:26.980 --> 00:15:28.539
exclusive claim, which is that when

552
00:15:28.540 --> 00:15:30.369
I own the pen, nobody else can use

553
00:15:30.370 --> 00:15:31.989
the pen. That's the classical kind

554
00:15:31.990 --> 00:15:33.369
of property argument.

555
00:15:33.370 --> 00:15:34.869
But when it comes to the question of

556
00:15:34.870 --> 00:15:36.849
I own a poem, it's also

557
00:15:36.850 --> 00:15:38.619
about what it means to own up to a

558
00:15:38.620 --> 00:15:40.419
poem in the sense of a relationality

559
00:15:40.420 --> 00:15:41.649
that you establish through the poem

560
00:15:41.650 --> 00:15:43.809
and through that to a wider range

561
00:15:43.810 --> 00:15:44.919
of people.

562
00:15:44.920 --> 00:15:46.899
So I was making the argument

563
00:15:46.900 --> 00:15:48.489
and trying to use the example that

564
00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:50.409
sometimes, the question of what

565
00:15:50.410 --> 00:15:52.959
it may mean to claim that

566
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:54.789
my pen is my own is way different

567
00:15:54.790 --> 00:15:56.679
from my brother is my own right.

568
00:15:56.680 --> 00:15:58.269
So that's the domain where you move

569
00:15:58.270 --> 00:15:59.829
into relational proximities.

570
00:15:59.830 --> 00:16:01.329
And when you impose the norms of

571
00:16:01.330 --> 00:16:03.399
property into knowledge creation,

572
00:16:03.400 --> 00:16:05.589
you run the mistake of

573
00:16:05.590 --> 00:16:07.929
mistaking your wife for a book.

574
00:16:07.930 --> 00:16:09.244
Yeah, yeah.

575
00:16:09.245 --> 00:16:11.139
Hearing you talk about this reminds

576
00:16:11.140 --> 00:16:12.669
me, again, of your interest in

577
00:16:12.670 --> 00:16:14.469
French theory and literary theory in

578
00:16:14.470 --> 00:16:16.449
general because the focus there on

579
00:16:16.450 --> 00:16:17.829
relationality and owning up to a

580
00:16:17.830 --> 00:16:18.939
poem and things like that really

581
00:16:18.940 --> 00:16:20.390
seem consistent with this interest.

582
00:16:21.550 --> 00:16:23.469
Well, I want to also ask you about

583
00:16:23.470 --> 00:16:24.819
another issue that you've written

584
00:16:24.820 --> 00:16:25.820
about

585
00:16:27.100 --> 00:16:27.909
throughout your career is free

586
00:16:27.910 --> 00:16:28.929
speech.

587
00:16:28.930 --> 00:16:30.999
And recently, in particular,

588
00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:32.409
because of some events that took

589
00:16:32.410 --> 00:16:35.049
place in February at Jawaharlal

590
00:16:35.050 --> 00:16:36.699
Nehru University.

591
00:16:36.700 --> 00:16:37.669
Can you talk about a little bit of

592
00:16:37.670 --> 00:16:38.829
what those events were?

593
00:16:38.830 --> 00:16:40.779
And then also the the questions

594
00:16:40.780 --> 00:16:42.129
about free speech that were raised

595
00:16:42.130 --> 00:16:43.269
in India.

596
00:16:43.270 --> 00:16:45.279
So, in the early part of February,

597
00:16:45.280 --> 00:16:46.269
there was an event that was

598
00:16:46.270 --> 00:16:47.979
organized at Jawaharlal Nehru

599
00:16:47.980 --> 00:16:48.849
University.

600
00:16:48.850 --> 00:16:50.829
And JNU is one of the leading

601
00:16:50.830 --> 00:16:51.819
kind of social sciences and

602
00:16:51.820 --> 00:16:53.469
humanities universities in the

603
00:16:53.470 --> 00:16:55.479
country with a very strong tradition

604
00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:57.429
of political opinions

605
00:16:57.430 --> 00:16:59.169
and of dissent.

606
00:16:59.170 --> 00:17:01.059
And this was a

607
00:17:01.060 --> 00:17:02.499
remarkable incident because

608
00:17:02.500 --> 00:17:03.759
basically what had happened was it

609
00:17:03.760 --> 00:17:05.618
was an incident that raised

610
00:17:05.619 --> 00:17:07.689
the question or was challenging

611
00:17:07.690 --> 00:17:10.449
certain kind of preconceived notions

612
00:17:10.450 --> 00:17:11.409
of sovereignty and

613
00:17:11.410 --> 00:17:12.879
self-determination in relation to

614
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:14.739
Kashmir, a very, very kind of a

615
00:17:14.740 --> 00:17:17.348
touchy political issue in India.

616
00:17:17.349 --> 00:17:18.818
But what the government did was that

617
00:17:18.819 --> 00:17:20.979
we ended up arresting

618
00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:22.509
the president of the students union,

619
00:17:22.510 --> 00:17:24.519
along with a few other students, and

620
00:17:24.520 --> 00:17:26.229
charging them with sedition.

621
00:17:26.230 --> 00:17:28.149
It also created a public sphere,

622
00:17:28.150 --> 00:17:30.309
which became entirely divided

623
00:17:30.310 --> 00:17:32.169
on the question of sedition and

624
00:17:32.170 --> 00:17:33.170
anti-nationalism.

625
00:17:33.460 --> 00:17:35.319
So this kind of created this

626
00:17:35.320 --> 00:17:37.179
very, very kind of a charged-up

627
00:17:37.180 --> 00:17:39.039
environment where everyone was

628
00:17:39.040 --> 00:17:40.659
accused of being anti-national if

629
00:17:40.660 --> 00:17:42.849
you raise any critical voice against

630
00:17:42.850 --> 00:17:44.019
the government.

631
00:17:44.020 --> 00:17:45.849
And so, in that context, I mean,

632
00:17:45.850 --> 00:17:47.649
a lot of the work that we were doing

633
00:17:47.650 --> 00:17:49.119
as political activists and as

634
00:17:49.120 --> 00:17:51.399
lawyers was to actually remind

635
00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:53.949
people of the rich constitutional

636
00:17:53.950 --> 00:17:55.719
tradition on freedom of speech and

637
00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:57.189
expression in the country that

638
00:17:57.190 --> 00:17:59.259
actually allows and supports a very

639
00:17:59.260 --> 00:18:01.089
high threshold of

640
00:18:01.090 --> 00:18:02.319
dissent.

641
00:18:02.320 --> 00:18:04.179
And why this was under threat in

642
00:18:04.180 --> 00:18:05.709
terms of - especially if the

643
00:18:05.710 --> 00:18:07.329
university, which is in some ways

644
00:18:07.330 --> 00:18:09.969
the last great bastion

645
00:18:09.970 --> 00:18:11.829
of free speech, was under assault

646
00:18:11.830 --> 00:18:13.779
- what that might mean

647
00:18:13.780 --> 00:18:15.609
for a democratic public sphere

648
00:18:15.610 --> 00:18:17.529
and the dangers that kind of posed.

649
00:18:17.530 --> 00:18:18.939
Yeah. I mean, you've written a lot

650
00:18:18.940 --> 00:18:21.369
about the fact that, as you said,

651
00:18:21.370 --> 00:18:23.499
the Supreme Court in India

652
00:18:23.500 --> 00:18:25.479
has upheld very high thresholds

653
00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:27.309
to when it's permissible to

654
00:18:27.310 --> 00:18:30.099
curtail speech. But that the

655
00:18:30.100 --> 00:18:32.679
criminal process and police,

656
00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:34.569
there are other mechanisms

657
00:18:34.570 --> 00:18:35.739
of curtailing free speech that are

658
00:18:35.740 --> 00:18:36.669
getting used. And that's what happened

659
00:18:36.670 --> 00:18:37.179
in this case.

660
00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:39.009
Absolutely. And increasingly, that's

661
00:18:39.010 --> 00:18:41.139
what we see happening, where

662
00:18:41.140 --> 00:18:42.579
it's not so much about whether or

663
00:18:42.580 --> 00:18:44.439
not you will be prosecuted

664
00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:45.399
by law.

665
00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:47.499
The chances of you succeeding

666
00:18:47.500 --> 00:18:49.059
in a courtroom are extremely high.

667
00:18:49.060 --> 00:18:50.379
But that doesn't really matter if

668
00:18:50.380 --> 00:18:51.316
you've already been locked up for

669
00:18:51.317 --> 00:18:52.929
like two months.

670
00:18:52.930 --> 00:18:54.234
So the chilling effect arises, in a

671
00:18:54.235 --> 00:18:56.439
way, from the procedural

672
00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:58.509
aspects of the law but also from

673
00:18:58.510 --> 00:19:00.609
the extra kind of legal

674
00:19:00.610 --> 00:19:01.989
mechanisms of control, which is

675
00:19:01.990 --> 00:19:03.999
straightforward violence, threats,

676
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:04.839
etc..

677
00:19:04.840 --> 00:19:06.249
And I think that the greatest

678
00:19:06.250 --> 00:19:07.959
danger, in a way, and threat to

679
00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:09.459
freedom of speech and expression, I

680
00:19:09.460 --> 00:19:11.259
think, in India, but also globally,

681
00:19:11.260 --> 00:19:13.749
is ironically the democratization

682
00:19:13.750 --> 00:19:14.750
of means

683
00:19:15.790 --> 00:19:16.989
of communication.

684
00:19:16.990 --> 00:19:18.159
So if you look, for example, at

685
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:19.149
social media.

686
00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:20.401
And you look at the vast incidents

687
00:19:21.460 --> 00:19:23.199
of trolling, I mean, this is

688
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:25.029
something that as classical kind

689
00:19:25.030 --> 00:19:25.809
of free speech advocates.

690
00:19:25.810 --> 00:19:27.969
It's a very difficult one to

691
00:19:27.970 --> 00:19:30.039
actually reconcile.

692
00:19:30.040 --> 00:19:31.389
On the one hand, you want to fight

693
00:19:31.390 --> 00:19:33.159
against any kind of governmental

694
00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:35.169
curbs on social media, while,

695
00:19:35.170 --> 00:19:36.999
at the same time, knowing that this

696
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:39.039
is not an equal terrain. It's not

697
00:19:39.040 --> 00:19:40.269
some kind of a domain where everyone

698
00:19:40.270 --> 00:19:42.399
participates with equality.

699
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.009
There are well-paid, professionally

700
00:19:45.010 --> 00:19:46.929
organized bodies of

701
00:19:46.930 --> 00:19:48.549
trollers who will ensure that only a

702
00:19:48.550 --> 00:19:50.649
certain kind of public opinion

703
00:19:50.650 --> 00:19:51.969
gets articulated.

704
00:19:51.970 --> 00:19:53.999
And, in the US,

705
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:55.599
no one understands this very well in

706
00:19:55.600 --> 00:19:56.709
the context of all the recent

707
00:19:56.710 --> 00:19:57.879
political developments that you have

708
00:19:57.880 --> 00:19:58.880
had.

709
00:19:59.710 --> 00:20:01.329
I wonder, thinking about the

710
00:20:01.330 --> 00:20:03.219
thinking about the campus climate,

711
00:20:03.220 --> 00:20:05.289
you spent a lot of time on U.S.

712
00:20:05.290 --> 00:20:07.479
campuses. You're at Yale currently

713
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:08.679
and have been in other places in the

714
00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:09.680
U.S.

715
00:20:09.910 --> 00:20:11.469
Can you compare some of the free

716
00:20:11.470 --> 00:20:13.029
speech issues that you've seen and

717
00:20:13.030 --> 00:20:14.139
been involved with in India with

718
00:20:14.140 --> 00:20:15.039
some of the free speech-- free

719
00:20:15.040 --> 00:20:16.269
speech is an issue here in the U.S.,

720
00:20:16.270 --> 00:20:17.709
but it's different. The same issues

721
00:20:17.710 --> 00:20:18.819
aren't at stake. Can you compare the

722
00:20:18.820 --> 00:20:19.809
two?

723
00:20:19.810 --> 00:20:21.729
I mean, the place where I was

724
00:20:21.730 --> 00:20:23.619
most inspired in terms of at

725
00:20:23.620 --> 00:20:25.599
the time or immediately after

726
00:20:25.600 --> 00:20:28.449
the JNU was happening.

727
00:20:28.450 --> 00:20:30.099
I was in Berkeley.

728
00:20:30.100 --> 00:20:32.289
And Berkeley has been

729
00:20:32.290 --> 00:20:34.689
a site of incredible resistance,

730
00:20:34.690 --> 00:20:36.399
and the history of the free speech

731
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:37.869
movement in terms of the activism of

732
00:20:37.870 --> 00:20:39.789
people like [inaudible], etc., has

733
00:20:39.790 --> 00:20:42.189
been very, very influential for us.

734
00:20:42.190 --> 00:20:43.959
But I feel like the big difference

735
00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:45.429
is in terms of a political

736
00:20:45.430 --> 00:20:47.409
atmosphere that one feels.

737
00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:49.359
And I think that I'm yet to feel

738
00:20:49.360 --> 00:20:50.739
that in a way in the U.S.

739
00:20:50.740 --> 00:20:52.239
Where, I don't know, maybe being an

740
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:54.579
outsider, you're not clued into

741
00:20:54.580 --> 00:20:56.251
what are the weirdest kind of sides

742
00:20:56.252 --> 00:20:58.329
of political activism and debate

743
00:20:58.330 --> 00:20:59.469
that's happening.

744
00:20:59.470 --> 00:21:01.329
But the way in which the electric

745
00:21:01.330 --> 00:21:03.489
charge that you felt

746
00:21:03.490 --> 00:21:04.869
when you were at JNU when things

747
00:21:04.870 --> 00:21:06.699
were unfolding was that everyone

748
00:21:06.700 --> 00:21:07.629
believed that there was something at

749
00:21:07.630 --> 00:21:08.649
stake. Right?

750
00:21:08.650 --> 00:21:10.479
I mean, and everyone was kind of

751
00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:11.469
participating in it.

752
00:21:11.470 --> 00:21:12.819
So there were teach-ins that were

753
00:21:12.820 --> 00:21:14.619
organized with thousands of people

754
00:21:14.620 --> 00:21:16.479
and thousands of students attending.

755
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:17.649
There were rallies. There were

756
00:21:17.650 --> 00:21:18.549
protests.

757
00:21:18.550 --> 00:21:20.499
There were rallies that went

758
00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:22.329
beyond JNU and into the city, where

759
00:21:22.330 --> 00:21:23.330
15-20,000 students

760
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:25.659
rallying in favor of JNU.

761
00:21:25.660 --> 00:21:27.749
Now, that kind of a charged

762
00:21:27.750 --> 00:21:29.189
atmosphere I haven't felt or

763
00:21:29.190 --> 00:21:30.359
experienced here yet.

764
00:21:30.360 --> 00:21:31.709
I don't know whether there's a

765
00:21:31.710 --> 00:21:33.569
division of labor between kind of

766
00:21:33.570 --> 00:21:34.829
the discourse of politics that

767
00:21:34.830 --> 00:21:36.599
people engage in - of which there is

768
00:21:36.600 --> 00:21:37.679
a very high standard.

769
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:39.659
You encounter that in terms

770
00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:41.489
of in a very impressive manner.

771
00:21:41.490 --> 00:21:43.649
But as mobilizing

772
00:21:43.650 --> 00:21:45.659
and translating from

773
00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:47.699
kind of theory to action or

774
00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:49.589
bringing it into praxis together,

775
00:21:49.590 --> 00:21:50.819
I haven't seen too much of that.

776
00:21:50.820 --> 00:21:52.649
Yeah. I mean, I'll say, just from my

777
00:21:52.650 --> 00:21:54.359
point of view, one of the things I

778
00:21:54.360 --> 00:21:56.039
watched as a lead-up to talking with

779
00:21:56.040 --> 00:21:57.749
you today was a speech that you gave

780
00:21:57.750 --> 00:21:59.189
at what's called the alternative

781
00:21:59.190 --> 00:22:00.809
classrooms on YouTube at JNU.

782
00:22:00.810 --> 00:22:03.179
And this was in February,

783
00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:05.039
while the student leader was still

784
00:22:05.040 --> 00:22:06.040
in jail, I think. I

785
00:22:09.300 --> 00:22:10.499
sensed exactly what you're talking

786
00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:11.609
about there, watching from as an

787
00:22:11.610 --> 00:22:12.492
American and somebody who is very

788
00:22:12.493 --> 00:22:13.799
familiar with American higher

789
00:22:13.800 --> 00:22:14.909
education campuses.

790
00:22:14.910 --> 00:22:16.739
There was some atmosphere that was

791
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:18.629
there present in that video that

792
00:22:18.630 --> 00:22:20.219
wasn't familiar to me.

793
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:23.459
In particular, there was one moment

794
00:22:23.460 --> 00:22:25.589
in that video, and I'll put a

795
00:22:25.590 --> 00:22:27.479
link to it up on the

796
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:29.369
up on the site afterward when they

797
00:22:29.370 --> 00:22:30.299
put the video here.

798
00:22:30.300 --> 00:22:31.589
When we put the interview up.

799
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.469
But you were introduced, you got up,

800
00:22:34.470 --> 00:22:36.240
and then there was a chant

801
00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:38.279
that happened. What was that?

802
00:22:38.280 --> 00:22:40.049
What was happening at that moment?

803
00:22:40.050 --> 00:22:41.939
So, I mean, the political rallies

804
00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:44.339
are very much a part of the kind of

805
00:22:44.340 --> 00:22:46.529
public culture of JNU and

806
00:22:46.530 --> 00:22:47.530
political speeches

807
00:22:49.410 --> 00:22:51.689
and kind of

808
00:22:51.690 --> 00:22:53.489
chanting, etc., is very much a part

809
00:22:53.490 --> 00:22:54.839
of the lively tradition.

810
00:22:54.840 --> 00:22:56.849
So the chant that was there was

811
00:22:56.850 --> 00:22:58.739
about continuing the battle of

812
00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:00.749
ensuring that we are demanding the

813
00:23:00.750 --> 00:23:01.937
release of Kanhaiya

814
00:23:03.150 --> 00:23:05.249
Kumar, of Umar, and the others

815
00:23:05.250 --> 00:23:07.439
who were in jail and

816
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:09.189
slogans against fascism.

817
00:23:09.190 --> 00:23:10.575
Yeah. I want to ask you about the

818
00:23:10.576 --> 00:23:12.029
kind of political climate in general

819
00:23:12.030 --> 00:23:14.009
in India. Has your work with free

820
00:23:14.010 --> 00:23:15.209
speech and the work in free speech

821
00:23:15.210 --> 00:23:16.709
in general taken on a greater

822
00:23:16.710 --> 00:23:19.549
urgency with the particular-- with

823
00:23:19.550 --> 00:23:20.699
the president and the ruling party

824
00:23:20.700 --> 00:23:21.700
that's there now?

825
00:23:21.930 --> 00:23:23.000
I think, of course, the

826
00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:26.549
present government is a right-wing

827
00:23:26.550 --> 00:23:28.199
nationalist government.

828
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:30.089
And so, a lot of the debates

829
00:23:30.090 --> 00:23:31.949
have been converted and given

830
00:23:31.950 --> 00:23:33.779
a charge of kind

831
00:23:33.780 --> 00:23:35.369
of an affective immediacy on the

832
00:23:35.370 --> 00:23:37.049
grounds that you're either for us or

833
00:23:37.050 --> 00:23:38.399
against us, again, terms that you're

834
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:39.659
familiar with.

835
00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:41.519
And all of it hinged around the

836
00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:43.259
question of patriotism.

837
00:23:43.260 --> 00:23:44.729
So the Supreme Court,

838
00:23:45.780 --> 00:23:47.699
recent order has mandated that

839
00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:49.649
the national anthem has to be played

840
00:23:49.650 --> 00:23:51.569
in every theater before a

841
00:23:51.570 --> 00:23:53.069
movie is screened, and it's

842
00:23:53.070 --> 00:23:55.289
mandatory for everyone to stand up

843
00:23:55.290 --> 00:23:56.879
when the national anthem is played.

844
00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:57.929
Now, to my mind, this is

845
00:23:57.930 --> 00:23:59.699
unprecedented.

846
00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:00.869
There have been very interesting

847
00:24:00.870 --> 00:24:02.759
judgments in the past which have

848
00:24:02.760 --> 00:24:05.009
been about the question

849
00:24:05.010 --> 00:24:06.299
of is it mandatory for someone to

850
00:24:06.300 --> 00:24:08.159
stand up when

851
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:09.719
the national anthem is played if it

852
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:11.219
goes against their political

853
00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:13.329
convictions. For example, like the

854
00:24:14.340 --> 00:24:15.689
Jehovah's Witnesses.

855
00:24:15.690 --> 00:24:17.639
Right? And would that be a conflict

856
00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:18.899
of interest in terms of your

857
00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:20.837
personal belief versus

858
00:24:20.838 --> 00:24:21.838
patriotic

859
00:24:23.310 --> 00:24:24.989
kind of duties that you have?

860
00:24:24.990 --> 00:24:26.159
And I think in the past, you would

861
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:27.719
never have had a problem answering

862
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:29.129
that question in the affirmative in

863
00:24:29.130 --> 00:24:31.199
terms of the fact that fundamental

864
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:33.569
rights, including the right

865
00:24:33.570 --> 00:24:35.609
to belief, would

866
00:24:35.610 --> 00:24:37.469
trump any kind of patriotic

867
00:24:37.470 --> 00:24:38.459
sentiment.

868
00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:40.169
And that has changed.

869
00:24:40.170 --> 00:24:42.089
And I think that that's really where

870
00:24:42.090 --> 00:24:44.039
the question of having

871
00:24:44.040 --> 00:24:45.899
a thick understanding of

872
00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:47.159
democracy and having a thick

873
00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:48.599
understanding of free speech becomes

874
00:24:48.600 --> 00:24:50.849
so crucial because dissent

875
00:24:50.850 --> 00:24:52.115
is really what is kind of being

876
00:24:53.250 --> 00:24:54.989
targeted at the moment.

877
00:24:54.990 --> 00:24:56.669
And I think that this is, of course,

878
00:24:56.670 --> 00:24:58.169
certainly a question of the present

879
00:24:58.170 --> 00:24:59.729
regime, but I would say that it's

880
00:24:59.730 --> 00:25:01.649
not restricted to them.

881
00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:03.299
Even the previous regime, which was

882
00:25:03.300 --> 00:25:05.069
led by the congress, for example,

883
00:25:05.070 --> 00:25:07.019
were not great allies and friends

884
00:25:07.020 --> 00:25:08.189
of free speech. I think it's

885
00:25:08.190 --> 00:25:09.659
important to remember that free

886
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:11.809
speech is, in a way, kind of--

887
00:25:11.810 --> 00:25:13.709
or speaking truth to power

888
00:25:13.710 --> 00:25:15.749
disturbs any government

889
00:25:15.750 --> 00:25:18.209
left, right, center.

890
00:25:18.210 --> 00:25:19.289
But in the case of the right, it

891
00:25:19.290 --> 00:25:20.590
seems to disturb them a little more.

892
00:25:22.560 --> 00:25:24.029
Well, speaking about the current

893
00:25:24.030 --> 00:25:25.665
administration and Narendra Modi,

894
00:25:25.666 --> 00:25:26.666
the current President-- sorry,

895
00:25:27.870 --> 00:25:29.197
Prime Minister in India.

896
00:25:32.130 --> 00:25:34.229
I was reading an article

897
00:25:34.230 --> 00:25:35.429
in The Atlantic on him, and this is

898
00:25:35.430 --> 00:25:37.469
from 2009.

899
00:25:37.470 --> 00:25:38.939
And I want to read you something.

900
00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:39.809
While he was still-- he was chief

901
00:25:39.810 --> 00:25:41.669
minister in the state of Gujarat at

902
00:25:41.670 --> 00:25:42.779
the time.

903
00:25:42.780 --> 00:25:43.859
And I want to read you this one

904
00:25:43.860 --> 00:25:45.809
sentence and then just kind of

905
00:25:45.810 --> 00:25:47.669
ask you about the--

906
00:25:47.670 --> 00:25:49.289
ask you about it in light of current

907
00:25:49.290 --> 00:25:50.159
developments in the U.S.

908
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:51.119
and India.

909
00:25:51.120 --> 00:25:52.829
And so this is after Obama was just

910
00:25:52.830 --> 00:25:54.419
elected. And the sentence is, "While

911
00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:56.159
Barack Obama may give hope to

912
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:57.839
millions in the new century, a

913
00:25:57.840 --> 00:25:59.249
leader like Modi demonstrates how

914
00:25:59.250 --> 00:26:00.643
the century can also go very wrong

915
00:26:00.644 --> 00:26:02.579
when charismatic politicians

916
00:26:02.580 --> 00:26:04.229
use modern electoral tactics and

917
00:26:04.230 --> 00:26:05.849
technology to create and exploit

918
00:26:05.850 --> 00:26:07.649
social divisions and then pursue

919
00:26:07.650 --> 00:26:09.329
their political and economic goals

920
00:26:09.330 --> 00:26:11.549
with cold, bureaucratic efficiency."

921
00:26:11.550 --> 00:26:12.599
So I read that, and I thought on the

922
00:26:12.600 --> 00:26:14.579
one hand, being wary

923
00:26:14.580 --> 00:26:16.409
of making easy comparisons

924
00:26:16.410 --> 00:26:18.209
between big, complex places like

925
00:26:18.210 --> 00:26:19.439
India and the U.S..

926
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:21.239
But on the other hand, that sentence

927
00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:22.409
jumped out at me because I read it

928
00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:23.429
recently, and I thought, "Well, this

929
00:26:23.430 --> 00:26:24.509
could be written about-- it probably

930
00:26:24.510 --> 00:26:25.619
has been written about Donald Trump

931
00:26:25.620 --> 00:26:27.509
in the last few months." Can you

932
00:26:27.510 --> 00:26:28.512
talk about that comparison based

933
00:26:29.790 --> 00:26:31.649
on this write up of Modi

934
00:26:31.650 --> 00:26:33.059
from seven years ago?

935
00:26:33.060 --> 00:26:34.919
I mean, I think it's-- while one has

936
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:36.539
always to be a little cautious about

937
00:26:36.540 --> 00:26:37.589
kind of making cultural

938
00:26:37.590 --> 00:26:39.239
translations, it's also very

939
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:40.649
important to recognize that we live

940
00:26:40.650 --> 00:26:42.149
in a global moment.

941
00:26:42.150 --> 00:26:44.159
There is a global trend.

942
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:46.229
And the rise of kind of populist

943
00:26:46.230 --> 00:26:48.179
politics globally

944
00:26:48.180 --> 00:26:49.679
and not just in India and the U.S.,

945
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:50.680
but in Turkey,

946
00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:53.099
in Japan.

947
00:26:53.100 --> 00:26:54.100
It's all over the world.

948
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:56.639
You need to account for that.

949
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:58.319
And I think that what is certainly

950
00:26:58.320 --> 00:27:00.149
crucial in actually

951
00:27:00.150 --> 00:27:01.889
what is common to a lot of what's

952
00:27:01.890 --> 00:27:03.029
happening in different parts of the

953
00:27:03.030 --> 00:27:05.189
world is a new kind of populism.

954
00:27:05.190 --> 00:27:06.719
And this is kind of a mediated

955
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.239
populism that runs

956
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:11.309
on the logic of a new

957
00:27:11.310 --> 00:27:13.139
kind of figure of power.

958
00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:14.140
So there is increasingly,

959
00:27:15.330 --> 00:27:16.589
if you look at, for example,

960
00:27:16.590 --> 00:27:18.509
charismatic leaders, not just

961
00:27:18.510 --> 00:27:19.829
in terms of, let's say, the prime

962
00:27:19.830 --> 00:27:22.019
minister or the president here,

963
00:27:22.020 --> 00:27:24.059
but people who act on their names

964
00:27:24.060 --> 00:27:25.060
or vicariously enjoy

965
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:28.079
a certain sovereignty, especially

966
00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:29.579
as social media personalities.

967
00:27:29.580 --> 00:27:31.079
Right? And I think that this is

968
00:27:31.080 --> 00:27:32.399
really, really crucial because the

969
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.319
media management of the 2014

970
00:27:34.320 --> 00:27:36.209
election was very

971
00:27:36.210 --> 00:27:38.039
crucial in transforming

972
00:27:38.040 --> 00:27:39.659
what used to be a predominantly

973
00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:41.609
negative image that

974
00:27:41.610 --> 00:27:44.039
someone like Narendra Modi had

975
00:27:44.040 --> 00:27:46.049
to becoming a leader that

976
00:27:46.050 --> 00:27:47.669
who was oriented towards development

977
00:27:47.670 --> 00:27:49.769
alone. And I think that that idea

978
00:27:49.770 --> 00:27:51.389
of understanding the political

979
00:27:51.390 --> 00:27:53.309
rhetoric is very crucial because

980
00:27:53.310 --> 00:27:54.869
I think the way that liberal media

981
00:27:54.870 --> 00:27:56.909
got it so wrong with the Trump

982
00:27:56.910 --> 00:27:58.529
election was that you don't actually

983
00:27:58.530 --> 00:27:59.530
pay attention in a close

984
00:28:00.450 --> 00:28:02.639
manner to the actual

985
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:03.956
content of what people

986
00:28:05.100 --> 00:28:06.269
on the right are saying.

987
00:28:06.270 --> 00:28:08.219
It may be completely disagreeable to

988
00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:10.079
you. It may be completely kind

989
00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:11.999
of unbearable to even listen

990
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:13.709
to it. But I think it's very, very

991
00:28:13.710 --> 00:28:15.719
important to actually engage very

992
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:17.549
seriously with the kind of rhetoric

993
00:28:17.550 --> 00:28:18.449
that they are producing.

994
00:28:18.450 --> 00:28:20.339
Because I think that, and I hate

995
00:28:20.340 --> 00:28:21.869
to say this, but what actually

996
00:28:21.870 --> 00:28:23.579
unified, let's say, Trump's

997
00:28:23.580 --> 00:28:25.919
campaign, with Modi's campaign,

998
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:27.959
with Obama's campaign is, at

999
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:29.929
the end of the day, they were about

1000
00:28:29.930 --> 00:28:31.979
a politics of hope.

1001
00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:33.839
You may not have agreed with the

1002
00:28:33.840 --> 00:28:35.249
political vision that each one

1003
00:28:35.250 --> 00:28:37.169
articulated, but they were offering

1004
00:28:37.170 --> 00:28:38.804
you a concrete kind of a political

1005
00:28:38.805 --> 00:28:41.129
vision that was lacking,

1006
00:28:41.130 --> 00:28:42.539
I feel, in the opposition.

1007
00:28:42.540 --> 00:28:43.619
And I think that that's why it's

1008
00:28:43.620 --> 00:28:44.620
important to actually listen

1009
00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:47.219
to the right a lot more.

1010
00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:49.289
Yeah. I see in your work

1011
00:28:49.290 --> 00:28:51.359
a sense of kind of resistance

1012
00:28:51.360 --> 00:28:53.279
to these workings. Not workings

1013
00:28:53.280 --> 00:28:54.989
of government and not just kind of

1014
00:28:54.990 --> 00:28:57.479
like Modi and Trump and figures

1015
00:28:57.480 --> 00:28:58.979
like that. But as you said, there's

1016
00:28:58.980 --> 00:29:00.329
something that actually links them

1017
00:29:00.330 --> 00:29:01.409
with Obama's campaign.

1018
00:29:01.410 --> 00:29:02.849
And I see a different way of

1019
00:29:02.850 --> 00:29:04.169
thinking in your work.

1020
00:29:04.170 --> 00:29:05.459
Can you talk a little bit about how

1021
00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:06.899
with the kind of different

1022
00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:08.549
opportunities for thinking about the

1023
00:29:08.550 --> 00:29:10.019
world that you try to offer in your

1024
00:29:10.020 --> 00:29:11.909
work as a legal scholar and

1025
00:29:11.910 --> 00:29:13.649
as a film critic and all the other

1026
00:29:13.650 --> 00:29:14.699
things that you do?

1027
00:29:14.700 --> 00:29:16.559
I mean, the difficulty is always in

1028
00:29:16.560 --> 00:29:18.449
terms of if you

1029
00:29:18.450 --> 00:29:20.519
are a critical intellectual,

1030
00:29:20.520 --> 00:29:22.529
the demand is always about,

1031
00:29:22.530 --> 00:29:24.749
"Okay, so what is your alternative?"

1032
00:29:24.750 --> 00:29:25.910
It's as

1033
00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:28.799
if you are a

1034
00:29:28.800 --> 00:29:30.629
political opponent in the sense that

1035
00:29:30.630 --> 00:29:32.999
if I am critical of you,

1036
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.809
I want to take power from you.

1037
00:29:34.810 --> 00:29:36.449
No, that's not the role of the

1038
00:29:36.450 --> 00:29:37.649
critical intellectual.

1039
00:29:37.650 --> 00:29:38.849
I mean, the idea of the independent,

1040
00:29:38.850 --> 00:29:40.769
critical intellectual is to be able

1041
00:29:40.770 --> 00:29:42.689
to critique and hear critique

1042
00:29:42.690 --> 00:29:45.449
in the deepest sense of the word,

1043
00:29:45.450 --> 00:29:46.979
which is to actually hold

1044
00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:48.929
accountable any kind of

1045
00:29:48.930 --> 00:29:50.939
government that's in power,

1046
00:29:50.940 --> 00:29:52.559
regardless of their ideological

1047
00:29:52.560 --> 00:29:54.449
leanings. And I think, in a way,

1048
00:29:54.450 --> 00:29:55.979
this may almost sound like an

1049
00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:56.980
anarchic kind of intellectual

1050
00:29:58.140 --> 00:29:59.039
tradition. And I think it's

1051
00:29:59.040 --> 00:30:00.029
important, actually, in the

1052
00:30:00.030 --> 00:30:01.829
contemporary, where it is so

1053
00:30:01.830 --> 00:30:03.689
polarized and so divisive in

1054
00:30:03.690 --> 00:30:05.849
terms of the need to take kind

1055
00:30:05.850 --> 00:30:07.589
of clear stances in terms of where

1056
00:30:07.590 --> 00:30:08.699
you come from - are you from the

1057
00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:10.529
left? Are you from the right? - that

1058
00:30:10.530 --> 00:30:11.579
it becomes very important to

1059
00:30:11.580 --> 00:30:13.589
actually maintain the

1060
00:30:13.590 --> 00:30:15.809
role of the public intellectual

1061
00:30:15.810 --> 00:30:17.819
as really one of the gadfly,

1062
00:30:17.820 --> 00:30:19.679
constantly buzzing

1063
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:20.909
in the years of sovereignty and

1064
00:30:20.910 --> 00:30:23.069
constantly questioning and speaking,

1065
00:30:23.070 --> 00:30:24.359
or attempting to at least speak

1066
00:30:24.360 --> 00:30:25.109
truth to power.

1067
00:30:25.110 --> 00:30:27.149
Yeah. I mean, the idea

1068
00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:28.469
of kind of thinking about

1069
00:30:28.470 --> 00:30:30.329
alternatives to me reminds me

1070
00:30:30.330 --> 00:30:32.519
of the creation of the Open Content

1071
00:30:32.520 --> 00:30:34.049
Archives. Because it seems like what

1072
00:30:34.050 --> 00:30:35.519
you're doing there is allowing for

1073
00:30:35.520 --> 00:30:36.779
that to happen for other people to

1074
00:30:36.780 --> 00:30:38.729
have access to materials so that

1075
00:30:38.730 --> 00:30:39.929
new ways of thinking-- so that new

1076
00:30:39.930 --> 00:30:40.799
things can be created.

1077
00:30:40.800 --> 00:30:41.639
Can you talk a little bit about

1078
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:42.779
those archives?

1079
00:30:42.780 --> 00:30:44.519
So as a part of my kind of work in

1080
00:30:44.520 --> 00:30:45.719
intellectual property and my

1081
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:47.279
collaboration with a whole range of

1082
00:30:47.280 --> 00:30:49.199
other people, there's an artist

1083
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:50.690
collective called Camp in Bombay.

1084
00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:53.699
There's a group in Berlin called

1085
00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:54.779
Pirate Cinema, and we've been

1086
00:30:54.780 --> 00:30:56.279
working for a long time.

1087
00:30:56.280 --> 00:30:57.509
We created two archives.

1088
00:30:57.510 --> 00:30:59.099
One is Padma, which is a public

1089
00:30:59.100 --> 00:31:00.689
access digital media archive, and

1090
00:31:00.690 --> 00:31:01.690
the other is Indiancine.ma.

1091
00:31:03.030 --> 00:31:04.539
And both of them are basically a

1092
00:31:04.540 --> 00:31:06.959
kind of online open-access

1093
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:08.789
archives. One that deals

1094
00:31:08.790 --> 00:31:10.739
with the history of Indian cinema in

1095
00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:12.149
terms of the heritage of Indian

1096
00:31:12.150 --> 00:31:13.889
cinema, and the other one that deals

1097
00:31:13.890 --> 00:31:15.839
with kind of more in

1098
00:31:15.840 --> 00:31:17.579
documentary film, but not the

1099
00:31:17.580 --> 00:31:19.859
finished film, but with footage.

1100
00:31:19.860 --> 00:31:21.419
And the idea for us is really that

1101
00:31:21.420 --> 00:31:23.499
in terms of in our time when

1102
00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:25.479
we are producing an astonishing

1103
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:27.399
amount of images, both in terms

1104
00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:29.319
of still as well as moving images,

1105
00:31:29.320 --> 00:31:31.329
we are producing way too much

1106
00:31:31.330 --> 00:31:33.099
to the point that we cannot consume

1107
00:31:33.100 --> 00:31:35.649
that amount of information

1108
00:31:35.650 --> 00:31:36.699
as images.

1109
00:31:36.700 --> 00:31:37.704
What does it mean to actually create

1110
00:31:39.070 --> 00:31:41.769
a technological platform

1111
00:31:41.770 --> 00:31:43.959
but also a political imagination of

1112
00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:45.099
image-making?

1113
00:31:45.100 --> 00:31:46.989
And for us, the idea of these two

1114
00:31:46.990 --> 00:31:49.479
archives was to slow down the image

1115
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:51.309
by writing alongside the

1116
00:31:51.310 --> 00:31:52.959
image. So the image is not something

1117
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:53.960
that you would read as

1118
00:31:54.850 --> 00:31:56.109
progression that kind of passes

1119
00:31:56.110 --> 00:31:57.939
before your eye without you having

1120
00:31:57.940 --> 00:31:59.859
to do anything. But it's so densely

1121
00:31:59.860 --> 00:32:02.049
annotated that you have to pause,

1122
00:32:02.050 --> 00:32:03.909
read, go back to the image, play

1123
00:32:03.910 --> 00:32:04.989
it again.

1124
00:32:04.990 --> 00:32:06.759
So the politics of the archive is

1125
00:32:06.760 --> 00:32:08.199
both in terms of one that's about

1126
00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:10.089
access but also the terms of

1127
00:32:10.090 --> 00:32:11.709
access and about the aesthetics of

1128
00:32:11.710 --> 00:32:13.029
access. So I think it's an attempt

1129
00:32:13.030 --> 00:32:14.049
to bring all three together.

1130
00:32:14.050 --> 00:32:15.050
Sure.

1131
00:32:15.760 --> 00:32:17.019
Well, I also want to talk to you a

1132
00:32:17.020 --> 00:32:18.849
little bit about your most

1133
00:32:18.850 --> 00:32:20.829
recent publication, and that's

1134
00:32:20.830 --> 00:32:23.259
the book Invisible Libraries.

1135
00:32:23.260 --> 00:32:24.159
It's a wonderful book. It was

1136
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:26.259
recently put on a list of 35

1137
00:32:26.260 --> 00:32:27.819
great books that was by Indian

1138
00:32:27.820 --> 00:32:30.129
authors in 2016.

1139
00:32:30.130 --> 00:32:32.019
It's an unusual book

1140
00:32:32.020 --> 00:32:32.859
in various ways.

1141
00:32:32.860 --> 00:32:34.299
I wonder, can you talk about what

1142
00:32:34.300 --> 00:32:35.799
the book is and the inspiration for

1143
00:32:35.800 --> 00:32:36.800
writing it?

1144
00:32:37.700 --> 00:32:39.949
So this is a collaboration

1145
00:32:39.950 --> 00:32:40.950
between me and

1146
00:32:42.470 --> 00:32:43.999
four other writers.

1147
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.039
All of us, if pushed

1148
00:32:46.040 --> 00:32:47.040
to name one

1149
00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:50.029
attribute of ourselves,

1150
00:32:50.030 --> 00:32:51.589
it would be bibliophiles.

1151
00:32:51.590 --> 00:32:52.590
So we are creatures

1152
00:32:53.510 --> 00:32:54.409
of the book.

1153
00:32:54.410 --> 00:32:56.044
We live for and believe that the

1154
00:32:57.080 --> 00:32:58.369
book is one of the highest

1155
00:32:58.370 --> 00:33:00.739
embodiments of human possibilities

1156
00:33:00.740 --> 00:33:02.929
in terms of thought, imagination,

1157
00:33:02.930 --> 00:33:04.699
ethics, etc..

1158
00:33:04.700 --> 00:33:06.049
And this is a conversation that

1159
00:33:06.050 --> 00:33:06.933
we've had for many years.

1160
00:33:06.934 --> 00:33:08.899
We've constantly reading

1161
00:33:08.900 --> 00:33:10.833
each other's libraries, constantly

1162
00:33:12.020 --> 00:33:13.909
sending book recommendations to each

1163
00:33:13.910 --> 00:33:15.349
other. So this has been a community

1164
00:33:15.350 --> 00:33:16.819
of readers in a way where

1165
00:33:16.820 --> 00:33:18.114
friendships have been forged through

1166
00:33:19.550 --> 00:33:21.349
literary kind of loves.

1167
00:33:21.350 --> 00:33:23.239
So the book is, in a way, kind of

1168
00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:24.949
a coming together of our collective

1169
00:33:24.950 --> 00:33:27.079
interest in terms

1170
00:33:27.080 --> 00:33:29.449
of the world of books and reading,

1171
00:33:29.450 --> 00:33:31.609
but also, as you know,

1172
00:33:31.610 --> 00:33:33.259
our tribute to libraries.

1173
00:33:33.260 --> 00:33:35.149
So it's

1174
00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:37.309
a riff on Italo Calvino's

1175
00:33:37.310 --> 00:33:39.019
Invisible Cities.

1176
00:33:39.020 --> 00:33:40.550
The premise of Invisible Cities was

1177
00:33:42.830 --> 00:33:44.119
Kublai Khan has conquered the world,

1178
00:33:44.120 --> 00:33:45.409
and he enlists the help of Marco

1179
00:33:45.410 --> 00:33:47.869
Polo, who describes to him

1180
00:33:47.870 --> 00:33:49.819
all these wondrous cities that he's

1181
00:33:49.820 --> 00:33:51.319
actually traveled through.

1182
00:33:51.320 --> 00:33:53.539
And it's a beautiful, poetic kind of

1183
00:33:53.540 --> 00:33:55.519
metaphorical and

1184
00:33:55.520 --> 00:33:57.439
fantastical cities.

1185
00:33:57.440 --> 00:33:59.359
But in the book, it turns out that

1186
00:33:59.360 --> 00:34:02.119
even as Marco Polo was describing

1187
00:34:02.120 --> 00:34:03.949
all these wonderful cities, it turns

1188
00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:05.899
out that he's only describing

1189
00:34:05.900 --> 00:34:07.339
different facets of one city.

1190
00:34:08.754 --> 00:34:08.928
It's Venice yeah.

1191
00:34:08.929 --> 00:34:10.939
And we were interested in a similar

1192
00:34:10.940 --> 00:34:13.009
premise. And it's true, Jorge

1193
00:34:13.010 --> 00:34:14.899
Luis Borges, one of

1194
00:34:14.900 --> 00:34:17.059
the greatest writers in the world,

1195
00:34:17.060 --> 00:34:18.888
when he was appointed the

1196
00:34:18.889 --> 00:34:21.049
librarian of Argentina,

1197
00:34:21.050 --> 00:34:22.579
it was the same time that he had

1198
00:34:22.580 --> 00:34:24.019
gone blind.

1199
00:34:24.020 --> 00:34:26.419
So we took that as the

1200
00:34:26.420 --> 00:34:28.279
kind of fictional context

1201
00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:30.198
where Borges invites a whole

1202
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:32.299
range of people to describe

1203
00:34:32.300 --> 00:34:34.819
the wondrous and the imaginary

1204
00:34:34.820 --> 00:34:36.678
or the fantastical libraries that

1205
00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:38.329
we have visited.

1206
00:34:38.330 --> 00:34:40.158
And they all come back, and they

1207
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:41.839
describe this to him. But of course,

1208
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:42.919
what they all are doing is

1209
00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:44.479
describing the potential of a single

1210
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:46.579
library. So that's the premise of

1211
00:34:46.580 --> 00:34:47.119
the book.

1212
00:34:47.120 --> 00:34:48.829
Well, would you be willing to read

1213
00:34:48.830 --> 00:34:50.658
one or two-- it's a series of

1214
00:34:50.659 --> 00:34:53.988
short passages

1215
00:34:53.989 --> 00:34:55.099
of the descriptions of these

1216
00:34:55.100 --> 00:34:56.238
fantastical descriptions of these

1217
00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:57.559
libraries. Are you willing to read

1218
00:34:57.560 --> 00:34:58.729
one or two of them?

1219
00:34:58.730 --> 00:35:00.559
I'll read the shortest ones, since

1220
00:35:00.560 --> 00:35:02.179
I've mentioned Borges.

1221
00:35:02.180 --> 00:35:03.559
I'll read one where he's kind of

1222
00:35:03.560 --> 00:35:04.819
invoked as well.

1223
00:35:04.820 --> 00:35:07.579
So this is called Fanafilhaq.

1224
00:35:07.580 --> 00:35:09.559
"When the Argentine (quoting,

1225
00:35:09.560 --> 00:35:11.989
perhaps, a Persion who in turn

1226
00:35:11.990 --> 00:35:13.819
was quoting your mind or mine)

1227
00:35:13.820 --> 00:35:15.184
said that paradise was a library, he

1228
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:18.919
disclosed a limit of human dreaming

1229
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:21.018
no less clearly than did

1230
00:35:21.019 --> 00:35:22.879
the Greek when he proposed an

1231
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:24.559
afterlife made up of endless

1232
00:35:24.560 --> 00:35:26.599
philosophical conversation;

1233
00:35:26.600 --> 00:35:27.600
for libraries, like colloquies, are

1234
00:35:29.210 --> 00:35:31.339
hallowed by our need for enchantment

1235
00:35:31.340 --> 00:35:33.349
and instruction, our yearning

1236
00:35:33.350 --> 00:35:34.468
for force and delight, but

1237
00:35:35.600 --> 00:35:37.969
paradise, if it is paradise,

1238
00:35:37.970 --> 00:35:40.789
knows nothing of yearnings or needs.

1239
00:35:40.790 --> 00:35:42.979
And so it is that in the

1240
00:35:42.980 --> 00:35:44.509
Library of Fanafilhaq, which is not

1241
00:35:44.510 --> 00:35:46.459
a library, the only books you will

1242
00:35:46.460 --> 00:35:48.439
find will not be books,

1243
00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:49.939
and it will not be you who finds

1244
00:35:49.940 --> 00:35:52.639
them, and it will not be a finding.

1245
00:35:52.640 --> 00:35:54.769
The Library of Fanafilhaq,

1246
00:35:54.770 --> 00:35:56.810
of which we cannot dream."

1247
00:35:57.830 --> 00:35:59.269
And I'll read you another really

1248
00:35:59.270 --> 00:36:00.169
short one.

1249
00:36:00.170 --> 00:36:01.170
This is called Nakojabad.

1250
00:36:03.720 --> 00:36:05.909
"The Library at Nakojabad

1251
00:36:05.910 --> 00:36:08.099
consists solely of the silence

1252
00:36:08.100 --> 00:36:10.229
that its librarian compels you

1253
00:36:10.230 --> 00:36:12.269
to maintain within its precincts.

1254
00:36:13.540 --> 00:36:15.369
It is no ordinary

1255
00:36:15.370 --> 00:36:16.370
silence."

1256
00:36:17.530 --> 00:36:18.519
Thanks, Lawrence. That's great.

1257
00:36:18.520 --> 00:36:19.430
All of the passages.

1258
00:36:19.431 --> 00:36:21.249
I can't recommend the book highly

1259
00:36:21.250 --> 00:36:22.179
enough. They're really great.

1260
00:36:22.180 --> 00:36:23.769
I mean, it gives you a sense, I

1261
00:36:23.770 --> 00:36:25.689
think, of the possibility that every

1262
00:36:25.690 --> 00:36:27.849
library presents us with

1263
00:36:27.850 --> 00:36:30.129
and is really an inspiring work.

1264
00:36:30.130 --> 00:36:31.989
Thank you, and in a time I think

1265
00:36:31.990 --> 00:36:34.419
when reading is under such assault,

1266
00:36:35.470 --> 00:36:37.359
and this has always been the case in

1267
00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:39.129
the sense that technological

1268
00:36:39.130 --> 00:36:40.959
advancement is always created, in

1269
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:42.639
a way, a condition of the

1270
00:36:42.640 --> 00:36:44.619
possibilities of distraction.

1271
00:36:44.620 --> 00:36:46.599
But I think that the combination

1272
00:36:46.600 --> 00:36:49.059
of the world of WhatsApp, Facebook,

1273
00:36:49.060 --> 00:36:50.979
Twitter, and the constant

1274
00:36:50.980 --> 00:36:53.049
buzzing on our phones has made

1275
00:36:53.050 --> 00:36:54.658
the task of reading seriously a

1276
00:36:56.380 --> 00:36:57.789
huge challenge. And I'm coming to

1277
00:36:57.790 --> 00:37:00.369
this as a lifelong reader

1278
00:37:00.370 --> 00:37:02.199
who did not have a problem

1279
00:37:02.200 --> 00:37:04.329
earlier immersing myself

1280
00:37:04.330 --> 00:37:06.339
into, let's say, a book and

1281
00:37:06.340 --> 00:37:08.299
being lost in it for 4 to 5

1282
00:37:08.300 --> 00:37:10.689
hours. I can't do that any longer.

1283
00:37:10.690 --> 00:37:12.189
I just feel like I don't have that

1284
00:37:12.190 --> 00:37:13.569
span of attention.

1285
00:37:13.570 --> 00:37:15.459
I mean, I can read for,

1286
00:37:15.460 --> 00:37:17.559
let's say, spans of 20 minutes each,

1287
00:37:17.560 --> 00:37:19.179
and that's kind of becoming shorter

1288
00:37:19.180 --> 00:37:21.009
and shorter. So, in a way, the book

1289
00:37:21.010 --> 00:37:22.839
is also an attempt to work

1290
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:24.939
through for ourselves

1291
00:37:24.940 --> 00:37:26.769
what the future of reading

1292
00:37:26.770 --> 00:37:28.239
and the future of this object called

1293
00:37:28.240 --> 00:37:29.379
the book might be so.

1294
00:37:29.380 --> 00:37:30.249
Yeah.

1295
00:37:30.250 --> 00:37:32.199
And is that a-- are

1296
00:37:32.200 --> 00:37:33.579
you pessimistic about that and the

1297
00:37:33.580 --> 00:37:34.809
shortening of the time span if you

1298
00:37:34.810 --> 00:37:36.249
look even at your own. Actually, I

1299
00:37:36.250 --> 00:37:37.959
should say I feel similarly when I

1300
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:39.879
think about my own capacity to

1301
00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:41.229
spend large amounts of time with

1302
00:37:41.230 --> 00:37:42.230
books.

1303
00:37:42.640 --> 00:37:43.779
Do you have an optimistic or

1304
00:37:43.780 --> 00:37:45.039
pessimistic outlook or is it just a

1305
00:37:45.040 --> 00:37:46.040
change without a value?

1306
00:37:47.590 --> 00:37:48.609
If you look at the book, we're

1307
00:37:48.610 --> 00:37:49.959
ambivalent about that because in the

1308
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:51.819
sense that I'm as

1309
00:37:51.820 --> 00:37:53.379
much a creature of the iPad and the

1310
00:37:53.380 --> 00:37:55.149
Kindle as I am of the book.

1311
00:37:55.150 --> 00:37:57.699
And I love my collection of my

1312
00:37:57.700 --> 00:37:59.529
EPUBs and my PDFs as much as I

1313
00:37:59.530 --> 00:38:00.312
love my physical books.

1314
00:38:00.313 --> 00:38:01.313
There

1315
00:38:02.140 --> 00:38:03.459
is a way in which the physical book

1316
00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:05.379
will never be replaced because

1317
00:38:05.380 --> 00:38:06.819
there's a tangibility in terms of

1318
00:38:06.820 --> 00:38:09.219
its smell, its texture, its heave,

1319
00:38:09.220 --> 00:38:10.989
and we try to address that in terms

1320
00:38:10.990 --> 00:38:12.279
of that at different libraries so

1321
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.609
that it's not just a nostalgic

1322
00:38:15.610 --> 00:38:17.199
lament for the loss of the library

1323
00:38:17.200 --> 00:38:18.639
and for the loss of reading.

1324
00:38:18.640 --> 00:38:20.379
But in a way, taken from what

1325
00:38:20.380 --> 00:38:21.279
Svetlana Boym describes as the

1326
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:22.929
future of nostalgia.

1327
00:38:22.930 --> 00:38:24.279
For us, the question is not just

1328
00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:26.199
about what uses we

1329
00:38:26.200 --> 00:38:28.149
have of the past, but how many

1330
00:38:28.150 --> 00:38:29.829
one actually projects into the

1331
00:38:29.830 --> 00:38:30.609
future.

1332
00:38:30.610 --> 00:38:32.049
And I think that I am certainly

1333
00:38:32.050 --> 00:38:33.909
concerned about the loss of

1334
00:38:33.910 --> 00:38:34.910
a certain

1335
00:38:36.100 --> 00:38:37.359
immersiveness in terms of a way that

1336
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:39.159
demanded the totality of your

1337
00:38:39.160 --> 00:38:40.119
attention.

1338
00:38:40.120 --> 00:38:42.099
Because I think that the careful

1339
00:38:42.100 --> 00:38:43.731
attentiveness to life,

1340
00:38:44.860 --> 00:38:46.959
to people, and to their beliefs,

1341
00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:48.789
to what makes them who

1342
00:38:48.790 --> 00:38:51.159
they are, is so crucial, in a way,

1343
00:38:51.160 --> 00:38:53.130
to an ethical imagining of oneself.

1344
00:38:53.131 --> 00:38:55.629
This inattentiveness

1345
00:38:55.630 --> 00:38:57.279
and the inattentiveness that kind of

1346
00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:59.035
becomes at a larger political

1347
00:38:59.036 --> 00:39:00.909
collective level

1348
00:39:00.910 --> 00:39:02.799
and apathy to the lives of

1349
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:04.029
others is certainly something that

1350
00:39:04.030 --> 00:39:04.899
we should think about.

1351
00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:06.969
But I'm not pessimistic

1352
00:39:06.970 --> 00:39:08.499
about this being a technological

1353
00:39:08.500 --> 00:39:10.539
problem, although I do feel

1354
00:39:10.540 --> 00:39:12.069
that every once in a while, one has

1355
00:39:12.070 --> 00:39:13.989
to withdraw from technology.

1356
00:39:13.990 --> 00:39:15.879
One has to take that break in

1357
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:18.189
order to be able to go back into

1358
00:39:18.190 --> 00:39:19.629
and understand, in that sense, the

1359
00:39:19.630 --> 00:39:21.549
value of the book as an object

1360
00:39:21.550 --> 00:39:22.519
that cannot be replaced.

1361
00:39:22.520 --> 00:39:23.739
So I think if you believe that it

1362
00:39:23.740 --> 00:39:25.749
can be, we run into serious

1363
00:39:25.750 --> 00:39:27.729
dangers. I mean, the scariest image

1364
00:39:27.730 --> 00:39:29.169
of reading that I've encountered in

1365
00:39:29.170 --> 00:39:31.029
recent times is something called the

1366
00:39:31.030 --> 00:39:32.559
capital F rule.

1367
00:39:32.560 --> 00:39:34.149
And the capital F rule was that,

1368
00:39:34.150 --> 00:39:35.979
given the nature of attention in the

1369
00:39:35.980 --> 00:39:38.079
contemporary, writing

1370
00:39:38.080 --> 00:39:40.299
should be aimed towards

1371
00:39:40.300 --> 00:39:41.979
knowing that the reader is going to

1372
00:39:41.980 --> 00:39:43.809
read the first paragraph in

1373
00:39:43.810 --> 00:39:44.799
its totality.

1374
00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:45.729
He's going to read the middle

1375
00:39:45.730 --> 00:39:47.589
section skimmingly, and he's

1376
00:39:47.590 --> 00:39:49.149
not going to read the end.

1377
00:39:49.150 --> 00:39:50.679
And that's a very scary thought.

1378
00:39:50.680 --> 00:39:52.839
So I think that the idea of slowing

1379
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:55.119
down reading by returning

1380
00:39:55.120 --> 00:39:56.589
to its roots in terms of the books

1381
00:39:56.590 --> 00:39:58.059
is still a crucial idea to hold on

1382
00:39:58.060 --> 00:39:58.329
to.

1383
00:39:58.330 --> 00:39:59.649
Yeah, well, it's not-- I will say,

1384
00:39:59.650 --> 00:40:01.569
too, it's not a pessimistic book

1385
00:40:01.570 --> 00:40:03.039
for me at all. It's an inspirational

1386
00:40:03.040 --> 00:40:05.109
book. It actually kind of propels

1387
00:40:05.110 --> 00:40:06.939
me to want to spend more time

1388
00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:08.439
in libraries and thinking more about

1389
00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:09.460
what you can gain from books.

1390
00:40:10.780 --> 00:40:11.889
Lawrence Liang, thank you so much

1391
00:40:11.890 --> 00:40:12.429
for joining us.

1392
00:40:12.430 --> 00:40:13.430
Thank you. Pleasure being here.

1393
00:40:16.540 --> 00:40:17.319
Thanks. That's it for this edition of

1394
00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:18.399
Being Human.

1395
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:19.839
This episode was produced by Matt

1396
00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:21.849
Moret, Undergraduate Media Fellow

1397
00:40:21.850 --> 00:40:23.529
at the University of Pittsburgh.

1398
00:40:23.530 --> 00:40:24.909
Stay tuned next time when my guest

1399
00:40:24.910 --> 00:40:26.409
will be Jane Ward, professor of

1400
00:40:26.410 --> 00:40:27.969
Gender and Sexuality Studies and

1401
00:40:27.970 --> 00:40:29.979
author of Not Gay: Sex Between

1402
00:40:29.980 --> 00:40:31.329
Straight White Men.

1403
00:40:31.330 --> 00:40:32.330
Thanks for listening.