WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.540 --> 00:00:05.679 Hello and welcome to the latest 2 00:00:05.680 --> 00:00:06.999 installment of Being Human from the 3 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:08.709 University of Pittsburgh. 4 00:00:08.710 --> 00:00:10.299 This series is devoted to exploring 5 00:00:10.300 --> 00:00:11.859 the humanities, their connections to 6 00:00:11.860 --> 00:00:13.479 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:14.859 in the public world. 8 00:00:14.860 --> 00:00:16.539 I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of 9 00:00:16.540 --> 00:00:18.249 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:18.250 --> 00:00:19.989 My guest today is George Gopen, 11 00:00:19.990 --> 00:00:21.489 Professor Emeritus of the Practice 12 00:00:21.490 --> 00:00:23.050 of Rhetoric at Duke University. 13 00:00:24.700 --> 00:00:26.079 Professor Gopen's career has spanned 14 00:00:26.080 --> 00:00:27.579 several decades and crossed many 15 00:00:27.580 --> 00:00:29.229 disciplinary boundaries. 16 00:00:29.230 --> 00:00:30.399 He holds both a J.D. 17 00:00:30.400 --> 00:00:32.109 and a Ph.D. in English and has 18 00:00:32.110 --> 00:00:33.249 written multiple essays on 19 00:00:33.250 --> 00:00:34.809 connections between literature and 20 00:00:34.810 --> 00:00:35.949 the law. 21 00:00:35.950 --> 00:00:37.209 He also has a long history as a 22 00:00:37.210 --> 00:00:39.159 classical performer and composer 23 00:00:39.160 --> 00:00:40.749 and has published on musical themes 24 00:00:40.750 --> 00:00:43.149 in T.S. Eliot's Four Quartets. 25 00:00:43.150 --> 00:00:44.379 But he's best known for his work in 26 00:00:44.380 --> 00:00:45.759 the field of composition, where he 27 00:00:45.760 --> 00:00:47.049 pioneered what he calls the reader 28 00:00:47.050 --> 00:00:49.359 expectation approach to writing. 29 00:00:49.360 --> 00:00:51.159 This approach is based on Professor 30 00:00:51.160 --> 00:00:52.299 Gopen's belief that we teach writing 31 00:00:52.300 --> 00:00:53.949 more effectively when we concentrate 32 00:00:53.950 --> 00:00:56.319 on the reader instead of the writer. 33 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:57.309 "The fundamental question that 34 00:00:57.310 --> 00:00:58.569 determines writing quality," he 35 00:00:58.570 --> 00:01:00.009 says, "is whether the reader 36 00:01:00.010 --> 00:01:01.389 understood what the writer was 37 00:01:01.390 --> 00:01:03.439 trying to say." Good writing, 38 00:01:03.440 --> 00:01:04.909 in other words, can't be determined 39 00:01:04.910 --> 00:01:05.910 in a vacuum. 40 00:01:06.650 --> 00:01:08.059 With this in mind, Professor Gopen 41 00:01:08.060 --> 00:01:09.559 has developed a range of techniques 42 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:11.239 that allow writers in various fields 43 00:01:11.240 --> 00:01:13.399 to communicate more effectively. 44 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:14.629 He teaches these strategies and 45 00:01:14.630 --> 00:01:16.549 workshops across the country, almost 46 00:01:16.550 --> 00:01:18.799 always to capacity crowds. 47 00:01:18.800 --> 00:01:20.569 Our conversation took place after 48 00:01:20.570 --> 00:01:21.889 one such workshop at Pitt in 49 00:01:21.890 --> 00:01:23.390 November 2016. 50 00:01:24.440 --> 00:01:26.209 I began our conversation by asking 51 00:01:26.210 --> 00:01:28.159 Professor Gopen what changed for him 52 00:01:28.160 --> 00:01:29.419 when he started concentrating on 53 00:01:29.420 --> 00:01:31.100 readers instead of writers. 54 00:01:33.470 --> 00:01:34.679 It was a complete change. 55 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:36.030 It was a sea change. 56 00:01:37.890 --> 00:01:40.169 I used to talk about the literature 57 00:01:40.170 --> 00:01:41.609 that I was assigning. That went 58 00:01:41.610 --> 00:01:43.859 away. I used to teach 59 00:01:43.860 --> 00:01:44.809 the rules in the books. 60 00:01:44.810 --> 00:01:45.929 That went away. 61 00:01:45.930 --> 00:01:48.089 I have reduced it all 62 00:01:48.090 --> 00:01:49.319 except the rules of grammar. 63 00:01:49.320 --> 00:01:50.909 I reduced all the other rules we 64 00:01:50.910 --> 00:01:52.409 were taught about writing to a 65 00:01:52.410 --> 00:01:54.059 single rule. 66 00:01:54.060 --> 00:01:56.129 And that is "no rules." 67 00:01:56.130 --> 00:01:57.975 That's my only rule, and 68 00:01:57.976 --> 00:01:59.339 I have people memorize it. 69 00:01:59.340 --> 00:02:01.529 Everything we've been taught about 70 00:02:01.530 --> 00:02:02.909 how to write better, 71 00:02:04.050 --> 00:02:05.879 I think, is at least 72 00:02:05.880 --> 00:02:08.219 flawed or outright false. 73 00:02:08.220 --> 00:02:09.754 Every single piece of major advice: 74 00:02:09.755 --> 00:02:11.879 to write 75 00:02:11.880 --> 00:02:13.769 it--to make it clearer, make 76 00:02:13.770 --> 00:02:14.770 it shorter. No. 77 00:02:16.350 --> 00:02:17.339 Wrong. 78 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:19.289 Number of words in a sentence 79 00:02:19.290 --> 00:02:21.179 has nothing to do by itself with 80 00:02:21.180 --> 00:02:23.879 quality. I can show you a 130-word 81 00:02:23.880 --> 00:02:25.349 sentence that's clear as a bell and 82 00:02:25.350 --> 00:02:27.359 a 13-word sentence that's totally 83 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:28.349 opaque. 84 00:02:28.350 --> 00:02:29.747 Avoid the passive. 85 00:02:29.748 --> 00:02:31.709 Single worst thing we 86 00:02:31.710 --> 00:02:33.299 teach about the language, and we 87 00:02:33.300 --> 00:02:35.309 teach it constantly. 88 00:02:35.310 --> 00:02:37.259 You cannot write 89 00:02:37.260 --> 00:02:38.759 sophisticated English about 90 00:02:38.760 --> 00:02:40.919 complicated matters without 91 00:02:40.920 --> 00:02:42.779 a complete control 92 00:02:42.780 --> 00:02:44.729 and skillful usage 93 00:02:44.730 --> 00:02:46.529 of the passive voice. 94 00:02:46.530 --> 00:02:48.539 What does the passive do? 95 00:02:48.540 --> 00:02:50.489 It changes 96 00:02:50.490 --> 00:02:52.379 the position of the furniture in the 97 00:02:52.380 --> 00:02:54.629 room. Jack loves Jill is active. 98 00:02:54.630 --> 00:02:57.209 Jill is loved by Jack is passive. 99 00:02:57.210 --> 00:02:58.589 Jill and Jack have changed 100 00:02:58.590 --> 00:02:59.729 locations. 101 00:02:59.730 --> 00:03:01.619 What is the principal concept in 102 00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:03.239 back of the reader expectation 103 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:04.259 approach? 104 00:03:04.260 --> 00:03:06.479 That 85% of our clues 105 00:03:06.480 --> 00:03:09.089 for interpretation as readers 106 00:03:09.090 --> 00:03:11.249 come not from 107 00:03:11.250 --> 00:03:13.739 word choice or word meaning 108 00:03:13.740 --> 00:03:15.899 but rather from the structural 109 00:03:15.900 --> 00:03:17.048 location of words. 110 00:03:17.049 --> 00:03:19.169 Where a word shows 111 00:03:19.170 --> 00:03:21.239 up in a sentence will control 112 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:23.309 most of the use to which 113 00:03:23.310 --> 00:03:24.449 it has been put. 114 00:03:24.450 --> 00:03:26.429 So what I teach now, 115 00:03:26.430 --> 00:03:28.619 and since those early days, 116 00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:30.479 is what those locations are and what 117 00:03:30.480 --> 00:03:32.309 those expectations are. 118 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:34.360 There are 119 00:03:35.490 --> 00:03:37.769 five questions 120 00:03:37.770 --> 00:03:38.909 that a reader has to have the 121 00:03:38.910 --> 00:03:40.829 correct answer to at the end 122 00:03:40.830 --> 00:03:42.689 of every sentence that they read 123 00:03:42.690 --> 00:03:44.609 of yours in order 124 00:03:44.610 --> 00:03:45.869 to make of that sentence. 125 00:03:45.870 --> 00:03:47.759 Not some sense, 126 00:03:47.760 --> 00:03:49.709 but the sense that you 127 00:03:49.710 --> 00:03:52.109 intended. The five questions are: 128 00:03:52.110 --> 00:03:54.089 what's going on here? 129 00:03:54.090 --> 00:03:56.189 Whose story is it, or from 130 00:03:56.190 --> 00:03:57.779 who or what perspective should we 131 00:03:57.780 --> 00:03:59.099 see it? 132 00:03:59.100 --> 00:04:00.569 How does the sentence I'm beginning 133 00:04:00.570 --> 00:04:02.279 to read now link back to the 134 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:04.409 sentence I just finished reading? 135 00:04:04.410 --> 00:04:05.909 How is this sentence that I'm 136 00:04:05.910 --> 00:04:07.919 starting to come to at the end of 137 00:04:07.920 --> 00:04:09.749 lean forward to where I might 138 00:04:09.750 --> 00:04:11.219 go from here? 139 00:04:11.220 --> 00:04:14.159 And the most important of the five: 140 00:04:14.160 --> 00:04:16.109 which word or words in this sentence 141 00:04:16.110 --> 00:04:17.578 should I be reading with extra 142 00:04:17.579 --> 00:04:19.648 emphasis because they're the stars 143 00:04:19.649 --> 00:04:20.649 of the show? 144 00:04:21.660 --> 00:04:23.609 You get any one of 145 00:04:23.610 --> 00:04:25.589 those five wrong, and you 146 00:04:25.590 --> 00:04:28.499 do not get what the author intended. 147 00:04:28.500 --> 00:04:30.179 You may be completely satisfied, but 148 00:04:30.180 --> 00:04:31.439 you don't get what the author meant. 149 00:04:31.440 --> 00:04:32.279 Yeah. 150 00:04:32.280 --> 00:04:33.659 Listening to you describe this, it 151 00:04:33.660 --> 00:04:34.889 occurs to me that when you talk 152 00:04:34.890 --> 00:04:36.899 about a reader, you're talking about 153 00:04:36.900 --> 00:04:37.889 any kind of reader. 154 00:04:37.890 --> 00:04:39.269 This is a person who's reading, not 155 00:04:39.270 --> 00:04:40.619 necessarily someone in an English 156 00:04:40.620 --> 00:04:42.479 department or a lawyer or 157 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:43.469 a scientist or whatever. 158 00:04:43.470 --> 00:04:44.909 Is that part of the reason why 159 00:04:44.910 --> 00:04:46.889 you've been able to talk to so many 160 00:04:46.890 --> 00:04:48.119 different people about it and be 161 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:48.689 successful? 162 00:04:48.690 --> 00:04:49.589 Absolutely. 163 00:04:49.590 --> 00:04:51.509 Any reader of English 164 00:04:51.510 --> 00:04:53.489 know their expectations, I 165 00:04:53.490 --> 00:04:55.559 suspect for every single language, 166 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:58.109 they cover how it functions. 167 00:04:58.110 --> 00:04:59.969 The expectations of English, I am 168 00:04:59.970 --> 00:05:01.919 convinced, are different than any 169 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:03.209 other language, and, indeed, it 170 00:05:03.210 --> 00:05:05.339 changes a little bit from dialect 171 00:05:05.340 --> 00:05:06.466 to dialect. You go to England. 172 00:05:06.467 --> 00:05:07.919 It's a little different from New 173 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:08.939 York City. 174 00:05:08.940 --> 00:05:10.949 I suspect South Africa 175 00:05:10.950 --> 00:05:12.839 or Australia would also have 176 00:05:12.840 --> 00:05:15.329 their special 177 00:05:15.330 --> 00:05:16.589 variations. 178 00:05:16.590 --> 00:05:18.959 But those five questions, 179 00:05:18.960 --> 00:05:20.129 which must have the right 180 00:05:20.130 --> 00:05:22.259 answers--the new breakthrough here, 181 00:05:22.260 --> 00:05:23.260 with reader expectations, is 182 00:05:25.230 --> 00:05:27.989 that all of those five questions 183 00:05:27.990 --> 00:05:29.819 are answered primarily 184 00:05:31.050 --> 00:05:32.879 by knowing where in 185 00:05:32.880 --> 00:05:34.799 the structure of a sentence to 186 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:36.719 look for that answer. 187 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:38.639 Whose story is 188 00:05:38.640 --> 00:05:39.659 it? 189 00:05:39.660 --> 00:05:42.179 Well, go back to Jack and Jill. 190 00:05:42.180 --> 00:05:43.529 Jack loves Jill. 191 00:05:43.530 --> 00:05:44.819 Jill is loved by Jack. Almost every 192 00:05:44.820 --> 00:05:46.499 English teacher in the country will 193 00:05:46.500 --> 00:05:47.909 tell you that Jack loves Jill is a 194 00:05:47.910 --> 00:05:49.679 better sentence than Jill is loved 195 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:53.009 by Jack because it's shorter 196 00:05:53.010 --> 00:05:54.989 and it's active instead of passive. 197 00:05:54.990 --> 00:05:56.969 The two things I mentioned moments 198 00:05:56.970 --> 00:05:57.970 ago. 199 00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:00.419 Well, I will tell 200 00:06:00.420 --> 00:06:03.089 you absolute nonsense. 201 00:06:03.090 --> 00:06:05.579 They are both fine sentences, 202 00:06:05.580 --> 00:06:07.799 but they do different things, 203 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:09.749 and it depends 204 00:06:09.750 --> 00:06:11.459 on what the context is. 205 00:06:11.460 --> 00:06:14.279 Context controls meaning, 206 00:06:14.280 --> 00:06:16.319 but it also depends on this concept 207 00:06:16.320 --> 00:06:17.999 of reader expectation. 208 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:20.339 Jack loves Jill. Whose story 209 00:06:20.340 --> 00:06:21.149 is that? 210 00:06:21.150 --> 00:06:22.919 Most people will tell you Jack. 211 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:24.929 Jill is loved by Jack. 212 00:06:24.930 --> 00:06:25.753 Whose story is that? 213 00:06:25.754 --> 00:06:28.199 Most people will tell you Jill. 214 00:06:28.200 --> 00:06:30.059 So if you're trying to tell Jill's 215 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:31.979 story, the longer 216 00:06:31.980 --> 00:06:34.309 passive sentence is better. 217 00:06:34.310 --> 00:06:36.829 Not okay, but better. 218 00:06:36.830 --> 00:06:38.109 Tell me all about Jill. 219 00:06:38.110 --> 00:06:39.349 Okay, Jack. 220 00:06:39.350 --> 00:06:40.909 No, tell me about Jill. 221 00:06:40.910 --> 00:06:42.109 Oh, I will. Be patient. 222 00:06:42.110 --> 00:06:44.119 Jack loves-- no, tell me about Jill. 223 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:46.189 Jill is loved by Jack. 224 00:06:46.190 --> 00:06:47.190 Thank you very much. 225 00:06:49.820 --> 00:06:51.949 Well, another thing that 226 00:06:51.950 --> 00:06:54.019 I was interested in looking back 227 00:06:54.020 --> 00:06:56.059 on your career is your 228 00:06:56.060 --> 00:06:57.325 long involvement in music. 229 00:06:57.326 --> 00:06:59.119 Not only writing about music but 230 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:01.129 also performing it as a pianist and 231 00:07:01.130 --> 00:07:02.513 as a singer and in various ways. 232 00:07:02.514 --> 00:07:04.099 You've been the director of the 233 00:07:04.100 --> 00:07:06.169 Chamber Arts Society of Durham since 234 00:07:06.170 --> 00:07:07.170 2007. 235 00:07:08.180 --> 00:07:10.369 I wonder if that 236 00:07:10.370 --> 00:07:12.619 experience of yours also 237 00:07:12.620 --> 00:07:14.569 fed into any of the 238 00:07:14.570 --> 00:07:16.249 ways that you developed the reader 239 00:07:16.250 --> 00:07:18.169 expectation approach. 240 00:07:18.170 --> 00:07:19.849 It certainly did to the point that 241 00:07:19.850 --> 00:07:21.769 I'm willing to say that it is the 242 00:07:21.770 --> 00:07:23.599 single most powerful 243 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:25.639 influence on 244 00:07:25.640 --> 00:07:28.069 me in all of this. 245 00:07:28.070 --> 00:07:30.679 You've mentioned before how this 246 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:32.989 material spreads over 247 00:07:32.990 --> 00:07:34.669 any number of professions, all 248 00:07:34.670 --> 00:07:36.289 professions, anybody who is using 249 00:07:36.290 --> 00:07:38.120 English to try to communicate. 250 00:07:39.470 --> 00:07:41.509 One of the reasons it's so 251 00:07:42.980 --> 00:07:44.779 ubiquitously applicable 252 00:07:46.310 --> 00:07:47.929 is that it's basically formed on 253 00:07:47.930 --> 00:07:50.179 musical principles, and music 254 00:07:50.180 --> 00:07:52.472 is the international language. 255 00:07:54.980 --> 00:07:56.869 I threw myself into classical 256 00:07:56.870 --> 00:07:57.920 music at age three. 257 00:07:59.030 --> 00:08:01.069 I spent a long 258 00:08:01.070 --> 00:08:03.049 time every day 259 00:08:03.050 --> 00:08:04.819 sitting on the floor next to my 260 00:08:04.820 --> 00:08:06.319 little toy record player, which 261 00:08:06.320 --> 00:08:08.719 worked fine, listening to 262 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.269 the lives of composers 263 00:08:11.270 --> 00:08:12.363 made especially for kids. 264 00:08:12.364 --> 00:08:14.359 And then, 265 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:15.360 hearing the little 266 00:08:16.790 --> 00:08:18.859 pastiche moments of music 267 00:08:18.860 --> 00:08:20.599 that they would give me, and then 268 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:22.429 find a record and listen to the 269 00:08:22.430 --> 00:08:23.839 whole piece. 270 00:08:23.840 --> 00:08:26.449 I knew these composers 271 00:08:26.450 --> 00:08:28.159 more intimately than I knew my 272 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:30.139 friends or 273 00:08:30.140 --> 00:08:32.119 my teachers, or anyone else 274 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:33.949 in my life. 275 00:08:33.950 --> 00:08:35.928 And music started speaking 276 00:08:35.929 --> 00:08:37.549 to me very early on. 277 00:08:39.230 --> 00:08:40.639 Expanded that knowledge. 278 00:08:40.640 --> 00:08:42.949 I continue to expand it today. 279 00:08:42.950 --> 00:08:44.569 I mean, I own--records 280 00:08:46.550 --> 00:08:48.589 and CDs put together--I think 281 00:08:48.590 --> 00:08:50.329 my collection has now exceeded 282 00:08:50.330 --> 00:08:51.356 19,000. It's 283 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:54.859 almost all classical music. 284 00:08:54.860 --> 00:08:56.389 So it's the size of a small 285 00:08:56.390 --> 00:08:59.119 college's music library. 286 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:01.039 And I keep learning new 287 00:09:01.040 --> 00:09:03.229 music from it or new 288 00:09:03.230 --> 00:09:05.119 interpretations of old 289 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:06.589 music from it. 290 00:09:06.590 --> 00:09:08.304 What I eventually found out was 291 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:13.169 that the principles 292 00:09:13.170 --> 00:09:15.239 I was trying to 293 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:17.084 develop about how a 294 00:09:17.085 --> 00:09:19.379 reader makes sense of words 295 00:09:20.820 --> 00:09:23.009 apply equally well 296 00:09:23.010 --> 00:09:24.119 to how music 297 00:09:25.140 --> 00:09:27.089 has meaning. 298 00:09:27.090 --> 00:09:28.140 You're at a concert. 299 00:09:30.060 --> 00:09:31.919 Since chamber music is my 300 00:09:31.920 --> 00:09:33.552 thing, it's a chamber music concert. 301 00:09:33.553 --> 00:09:35.130 String quartets. 302 00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:38.489 And this quartet is 303 00:09:38.490 --> 00:09:39.689 playing three words. We're in the 304 00:09:39.690 --> 00:09:41.819 second half after the intermission 305 00:09:41.820 --> 00:09:43.489 and playing the Beethoven piece, and 306 00:09:43.490 --> 00:09:44.639 we're in the second movement there. 307 00:09:44.640 --> 00:09:46.919 And in measure number 16 308 00:09:46.920 --> 00:09:48.749 and the first beat of 16, 309 00:09:48.750 --> 00:09:50.669 all four instruments have 310 00:09:50.670 --> 00:09:51.670 a note to play. When 311 00:09:52.530 --> 00:09:53.646 they play this note, it freezes 312 00:09:54.810 --> 00:09:55.810 right there. At 313 00:09:57.330 --> 00:09:59.189 that frozen moment in 314 00:09:59.190 --> 00:10:01.062 time, every 315 00:10:01.063 --> 00:10:02.063 listener 316 00:10:04.090 --> 00:10:06.189 in that auditorium has 317 00:10:06.190 --> 00:10:08.259 a unique set 318 00:10:08.260 --> 00:10:10.329 of expectations 319 00:10:10.330 --> 00:10:12.519 as to what the next 320 00:10:12.520 --> 00:10:13.600 cord will bring. 321 00:10:14.710 --> 00:10:15.699 Listener expectations. 322 00:10:15.700 --> 00:10:17.889 Yes, listener expectations. 323 00:10:17.890 --> 00:10:19.989 Now, everyone has a unique 324 00:10:19.990 --> 00:10:20.859 set. Yes. 325 00:10:20.860 --> 00:10:23.169 What is your expectation set 326 00:10:23.170 --> 00:10:24.519 built upon? 327 00:10:24.520 --> 00:10:25.990 How well do you know this piece? 328 00:10:27.100 --> 00:10:28.449 If you don't know this piece, how 329 00:10:28.450 --> 00:10:30.819 well do you know other quartets 330 00:10:30.820 --> 00:10:32.979 or other pieces of Beethoven 331 00:10:32.980 --> 00:10:34.899 or other pieces by people writing 332 00:10:34.900 --> 00:10:36.039 at the same time? 333 00:10:37.330 --> 00:10:39.039 All of your musical knowledge, or 334 00:10:39.040 --> 00:10:40.749 lack thereof, affect your 335 00:10:40.750 --> 00:10:42.459 expectations. 336 00:10:42.460 --> 00:10:44.499 But then it expands beyond that. 337 00:10:44.500 --> 00:10:46.809 How is this group doing 338 00:10:46.810 --> 00:10:48.699 tonight? What do they sound like? 339 00:10:48.700 --> 00:10:50.529 How have they, in the first 340 00:10:50.530 --> 00:10:52.059 half of the concert, given you 341 00:10:52.060 --> 00:10:54.099 expectations about what this group 342 00:10:54.100 --> 00:10:55.119 might do? 343 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:56.229 And it goes beyond that. 344 00:10:56.230 --> 00:10:58.089 How hot or cold is it in 345 00:10:58.090 --> 00:10:59.319 the auditorium? 346 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:01.359 What did you have for dinner? 347 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:02.919 Did you have an argument with the 348 00:11:02.920 --> 00:11:04.096 person to your left over 349 00:11:05.290 --> 00:11:06.729 dinner? There are any number of 350 00:11:06.730 --> 00:11:09.069 things which go together to make 351 00:11:09.070 --> 00:11:11.259 your set of expectations unique, 352 00:11:11.260 --> 00:11:13.089 not only from everybody 353 00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:15.069 else in the room but unique 354 00:11:15.070 --> 00:11:16.269 in this moment of time. 355 00:11:16.270 --> 00:11:17.799 Because if you came back tomorrow 356 00:11:17.800 --> 00:11:19.629 and heard the same concert 357 00:11:19.630 --> 00:11:21.489 at this exact moment, your 358 00:11:21.490 --> 00:11:23.499 set of expectations would 359 00:11:23.500 --> 00:11:25.599 be changed, in part because 360 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:26.979 you heard the concert the night 361 00:11:26.980 --> 00:11:28.534 before--now that plays in--all 362 00:11:29.590 --> 00:11:31.899 right, now unfreeze. 363 00:11:31.900 --> 00:11:33.969 The moment they play the next 364 00:11:33.970 --> 00:11:35.799 chord, I say 365 00:11:35.800 --> 00:11:37.749 that the meaning of that next 366 00:11:37.750 --> 00:11:40.269 moment is the sum total 367 00:11:40.270 --> 00:11:42.369 of all the ways in which your 368 00:11:42.370 --> 00:11:44.229 set of expectations 369 00:11:44.230 --> 00:11:46.479 were fulfilled and/or 370 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:48.009 violated. 371 00:11:48.010 --> 00:11:49.779 So with music, you take where you've 372 00:11:49.780 --> 00:11:50.780 been. 373 00:11:52.180 --> 00:11:54.369 Have it create a present moment 374 00:11:54.370 --> 00:11:57.249 of the briefest duration, 375 00:11:57.250 --> 00:11:59.259 and it suggests where you might go 376 00:11:59.260 --> 00:12:00.459 from here. 377 00:12:00.460 --> 00:12:02.439 And then, meaning comes from whether 378 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:04.629 you go over here, or 379 00:12:04.630 --> 00:12:06.699 you don't go over there, or 380 00:12:06.700 --> 00:12:08.589 you go over this other place, which 381 00:12:08.590 --> 00:12:10.479 you hadn't expected at all. 382 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:11.626 So your expectations--I 383 00:12:13.810 --> 00:12:15.759 found the same is true of language. 384 00:12:15.760 --> 00:12:16.990 Now you might say, "Well, hold on. 385 00:12:18.100 --> 00:12:19.329 Words you can look up in the 386 00:12:19.330 --> 00:12:20.869 dictionary. 387 00:12:20.870 --> 00:12:22.503 Notes, you can't. You can't look up 388 00:12:22.504 --> 00:12:23.504 A 389 00:12:24.410 --> 00:12:26.839 sharp in a dictionary." 390 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:28.849 Well, I would say, "You say 391 00:12:28.850 --> 00:12:30.289 A sharp to a composer, and the 392 00:12:30.290 --> 00:12:32.239 composer might say, 'Oh, A sharp. 393 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:34.279 That means--" And 394 00:12:34.280 --> 00:12:36.589 for most people who play music, A 395 00:12:36.590 --> 00:12:38.509 sharp and B flat, which are the 396 00:12:38.510 --> 00:12:39.949 same note, two different names for 397 00:12:39.950 --> 00:12:41.239 the same note. 398 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:42.439 You say A sharp, they have a 399 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:43.689 completely different thing going on 400 00:12:43.690 --> 00:12:44.729 in their head than when you say B 401 00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:46.250 flat. It's remarkable. 402 00:12:47.750 --> 00:12:49.279 Is the meaning that a composer might 403 00:12:49.280 --> 00:12:50.959 get from that similar, then, to the 404 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:52.699 way that a word might be defined in 405 00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:54.289 the Oxford English Dictionary, which 406 00:12:54.290 --> 00:12:55.939 is the sum total of its usage to 407 00:12:55.940 --> 00:12:57.799 that point? And a composer with 408 00:12:57.800 --> 00:12:59.629 a sense of all the times 409 00:12:59.630 --> 00:13:00.859 when this note has been used in 410 00:13:00.860 --> 00:13:02.419 various places will have that a kind 411 00:13:02.420 --> 00:13:03.819 of sense of what the meaning is? 412 00:13:03.820 --> 00:13:05.539 Yeah, I think that's fair to say. 413 00:13:05.540 --> 00:13:07.399 And I would add to it 414 00:13:07.400 --> 00:13:09.409 that aside from 415 00:13:09.410 --> 00:13:11.089 the dictionary, you get all the 416 00:13:11.090 --> 00:13:12.979 metaphors ever built on it, 417 00:13:12.980 --> 00:13:15.289 all the symbolic possibilities, 418 00:13:15.290 --> 00:13:17.449 all the connotations, as well as the 419 00:13:17.450 --> 00:13:18.271 denotation. 420 00:13:18.272 --> 00:13:19.339 That's a really interesting connection. 421 00:13:19.340 --> 00:13:22.201 So when you're reading words, 422 00:13:22.202 --> 00:13:23.929 you can look them up in a 423 00:13:23.930 --> 00:13:25.489 dictionary. It's not like notes 424 00:13:25.490 --> 00:13:26.749 where there are no meanings. 425 00:13:26.750 --> 00:13:28.759 There are too many meanings 426 00:13:28.760 --> 00:13:30.109 when you look the word up in the 427 00:13:30.110 --> 00:13:31.219 dictionary. 428 00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:33.379 I mean, my favorite example 429 00:13:33.380 --> 00:13:34.939 of that is the word horse. 430 00:13:34.940 --> 00:13:36.919 Look it up in the huge Oxford 431 00:13:36.920 --> 00:13:38.059 English Dictionary. 432 00:13:38.060 --> 00:13:40.069 And in the paper version that 433 00:13:40.070 --> 00:13:43.519 I own, it's 33 434 00:13:43.520 --> 00:13:45.439 full-length columns of, I 435 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:47.509 don't know, 85 lines 436 00:13:47.510 --> 00:13:48.510 per page. Three 437 00:13:49.700 --> 00:13:52.039 columns for 11 pages 438 00:13:52.040 --> 00:13:54.829 in the OED just on horse. 439 00:13:54.830 --> 00:13:55.969 And you would think, well, it's 440 00:13:55.970 --> 00:13:57.649 either a four-legged animal or it's 441 00:13:57.650 --> 00:13:58.849 a piece of equipment in the 442 00:13:58.850 --> 00:13:59.659 gymnasium. 443 00:13:59.660 --> 00:14:01.789 But oh, no, they can tell you, "Oh, 444 00:14:01.790 --> 00:14:03.409 boy, is there more to horse than 445 00:14:03.410 --> 00:14:05.689 that?" So when you read the 446 00:14:05.690 --> 00:14:07.729 word horse, you 447 00:14:07.730 --> 00:14:10.609 can't possibly consciously 448 00:14:10.610 --> 00:14:12.549 conjure up all of 449 00:14:12.550 --> 00:14:13.550 those. 33 columns 450 00:14:14.570 --> 00:14:17.869 is the size of a short novella. 451 00:14:17.870 --> 00:14:19.789 You can't think of all of those 452 00:14:19.790 --> 00:14:20.869 horses at the time. 453 00:14:20.870 --> 00:14:23.119 How do you know which horse 454 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:25.340 or which category of horses 455 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:28.579 to allow into your mind? 456 00:14:28.580 --> 00:14:30.709 And the answer is it's the context 457 00:14:30.710 --> 00:14:33.259 of what came before the horse 458 00:14:33.260 --> 00:14:34.969 that makes you choose. 459 00:14:34.970 --> 00:14:36.979 If you're talking about the corral, 460 00:14:36.980 --> 00:14:38.059 you think of the animal. 461 00:14:38.060 --> 00:14:39.319 If you're talking about the gym, you 462 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:41.239 think of that horrid 463 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:43.339 thing you had to climb over when you 464 00:14:43.340 --> 00:14:44.990 were a kid in school 465 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:49.099 and all the other horses 466 00:14:49.100 --> 00:14:51.049 too--the horse named Charlie 467 00:14:51.050 --> 00:14:52.609 and all the rest of them. 468 00:14:52.610 --> 00:14:54.559 What comes before will 469 00:14:54.560 --> 00:14:56.509 make it able to 470 00:14:56.510 --> 00:14:58.669 function, and then what comes after 471 00:14:58.670 --> 00:15:00.889 it might change 472 00:15:00.890 --> 00:15:03.079 and further refine it. 473 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:05.269 So the notes and the words 474 00:15:05.270 --> 00:15:07.159 really don't have 475 00:15:07.160 --> 00:15:08.749 much difference in terms of 476 00:15:08.750 --> 00:15:10.699 linearity of 477 00:15:10.700 --> 00:15:12.439 experience. When you go from left to 478 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:14.119 right, and through time, through a 479 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:16.159 sentence, or through two measures 480 00:15:16.160 --> 00:15:18.799 of music, the same forces 481 00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:20.059 are working on you. 482 00:15:20.060 --> 00:15:21.619 Where have I come from? 483 00:15:21.620 --> 00:15:23.719 How am I--how do I know where I am 484 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:25.069 now? Where am I going? 485 00:15:25.070 --> 00:15:26.899 And, oh, goodness, did I go there 486 00:15:26.900 --> 00:15:28.141 or not? 487 00:15:28.142 --> 00:15:29.659 Yeah. So it's this life experience 488 00:15:29.660 --> 00:15:30.529 that kind of prepared you for-- 489 00:15:30.530 --> 00:15:32.629 And this brings you to phrasing 490 00:15:32.630 --> 00:15:33.679 and writing. 491 00:15:33.680 --> 00:15:34.879 This brings you to letting your 492 00:15:34.880 --> 00:15:36.739 reader know how long you're going 493 00:15:36.740 --> 00:15:38.839 to be doing this thing. 494 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:40.909 I mean, if you 495 00:15:40.910 --> 00:15:42.439 have a sentence that says, "We can 496 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:44.039 explain this in one of two ways." 497 00:15:45.290 --> 00:15:47.059 You're expecting two ways to come, 498 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.359 but you don't know at that point 499 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:51.799 where they'll come. 500 00:15:51.800 --> 00:15:53.179 You hope the first one comes 501 00:15:53.180 --> 00:15:54.277 immediately. You don't want to hear, 502 00:15:54.278 --> 00:15:55.609 "We can explain this at one of two 503 00:15:55.610 --> 00:15:57.229 ways, but first, a word from our 504 00:15:57.230 --> 00:15:59.089 sponsor." You want it to come in. 505 00:15:59.090 --> 00:16:00.289 Number one is going to come 506 00:16:00.290 --> 00:16:02.299 immediately, but when's number two 507 00:16:02.300 --> 00:16:03.079 going to come in? 508 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:04.249 The same sentence, the next 509 00:16:04.250 --> 00:16:05.509 sentence, later on. 510 00:16:06.650 --> 00:16:08.749 If you start the next sentence 511 00:16:08.750 --> 00:16:10.879 with the word "either." 512 00:16:10.880 --> 00:16:12.829 It informs the reader 513 00:16:12.830 --> 00:16:15.709 that both will be in this sentence, 514 00:16:15.710 --> 00:16:17.209 and the second one will start 515 00:16:17.210 --> 00:16:19.279 immediately after the word 516 00:16:19.280 --> 00:16:20.539 "or." 517 00:16:20.540 --> 00:16:21.766 Information is created by the word 518 00:16:21.767 --> 00:16:22.099 itself. 519 00:16:22.100 --> 00:16:23.749 Yeah. So if you don't have the 520 00:16:23.750 --> 00:16:24.750 "either," you read. 521 00:16:27.230 --> 00:16:29.179 And at some point, you think, 522 00:16:29.180 --> 00:16:31.369 "Oh, after this comma, 523 00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:33.559 the second one's starting." Whereas 524 00:16:33.560 --> 00:16:35.539 if you have "either" and "or," 525 00:16:35.540 --> 00:16:37.489 you know to read in a musical phrase 526 00:16:37.490 --> 00:16:38.490 of either, or. 527 00:16:43.340 --> 00:16:44.629 You have that expectation 528 00:16:44.630 --> 00:16:45.589 beforehand. 529 00:16:45.590 --> 00:16:47.299 And if you've written it so a reader 530 00:16:47.300 --> 00:16:49.339 can do that 531 00:16:49.340 --> 00:16:51.349 nicely and, if possible, can 532 00:16:51.350 --> 00:16:53.239 even balance the length and the 533 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:54.709 rhythm of it. 534 00:16:54.710 --> 00:16:55.879 Now we're talking about elegant 535 00:16:55.880 --> 00:16:57.049 writing. 536 00:16:57.050 --> 00:16:58.939 So you have a law degree 537 00:16:58.940 --> 00:16:59.922 and also a Ph.D.. 538 00:16:59.923 --> 00:17:01.759 And you've talked in 539 00:17:01.760 --> 00:17:03.559 interviews before about the fact 540 00:17:03.560 --> 00:17:05.719 that you felt 541 00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:07.129 that there was a connection between 542 00:17:07.130 --> 00:17:08.179 the two early on. 543 00:17:08.180 --> 00:17:10.189 But it took you a while to realize 544 00:17:10.190 --> 00:17:11.299 how to talk about it and how to 545 00:17:11.300 --> 00:17:12.348 think about what that connection 546 00:17:12.349 --> 00:17:13.818 was. And it was your discovery of 547 00:17:13.819 --> 00:17:15.439 the field of rhetoric that allowed 548 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:16.219 you to do that. 549 00:17:16.220 --> 00:17:17.118 So I wonder, can you talk a little 550 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:19.068 bit about what it was 551 00:17:19.069 --> 00:17:20.509 about that field that let you make 552 00:17:20.510 --> 00:17:21.510 that connection? 553 00:17:22.579 --> 00:17:23.899 Sure. I loved my first year at the 554 00:17:23.900 --> 00:17:25.069 Harvard Law School, 555 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:28.039 but I got pretty depressed by the 556 00:17:28.040 --> 00:17:30.079 second year because 557 00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:31.159 I'd learned everything that was 558 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:32.539 interesting to learn in the first 559 00:17:32.540 --> 00:17:34.819 year. And I realized I was sliding 560 00:17:34.820 --> 00:17:36.799 down a slippery slope 561 00:17:36.800 --> 00:17:38.929 to being a lawyer, and I'd had 562 00:17:38.930 --> 00:17:40.789 an opportunity to 563 00:17:40.790 --> 00:17:42.589 see some lawyers up close for a 564 00:17:42.590 --> 00:17:44.539 while that did very 565 00:17:44.540 --> 00:17:45.709 limited and dull work. 566 00:17:45.710 --> 00:17:47.269 And I thought that's what all 567 00:17:47.270 --> 00:17:49.519 lawyers did, and it was a mistake 568 00:17:49.520 --> 00:17:51.739 of perception on my part, but still. 569 00:17:51.740 --> 00:17:52.969 So I was getting depressed at the 570 00:17:52.970 --> 00:17:55.669 idea of becoming a lawyer. 571 00:17:55.670 --> 00:17:57.439 And on a bulletin board at Harvard, 572 00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:59.389 one day, I saw a message that 573 00:17:59.390 --> 00:18:02.329 said, "Anybody doing a J.D.: 574 00:18:02.330 --> 00:18:03.919 We have a new program now. 575 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:05.719 You may do an M.A. 576 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:08.449 in anything the university offers 577 00:18:08.450 --> 00:18:09.619 just for the asking. 578 00:18:09.620 --> 00:18:11.659 You don't have to apply or argue 579 00:18:11.660 --> 00:18:13.519 your way in. Just tell us 580 00:18:13.520 --> 00:18:14.329 you want to do an M.A. 581 00:18:14.330 --> 00:18:16.009 we're interested in broader, 582 00:18:16.010 --> 00:18:17.119 educated lawyers." 583 00:18:19.080 --> 00:18:21.419 Something inside me just 584 00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:23.399 immediately said, "Oh, good, I want 585 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:25.079 to go do English." And I didn't have 586 00:18:25.080 --> 00:18:26.909 any use for it. 587 00:18:26.910 --> 00:18:28.109 There's nothing I was going to do 588 00:18:28.110 --> 00:18:28.979 professionally. 589 00:18:28.980 --> 00:18:30.689 I think I just wanted more time to 590 00:18:30.690 --> 00:18:31.690 study some poetry. 591 00:18:32.820 --> 00:18:34.229 And I said, "Good. 592 00:18:34.230 --> 00:18:35.759 Me. English." And I signed up. 593 00:18:35.760 --> 00:18:37.769 The English department was furious. 594 00:18:37.770 --> 00:18:39.719 They'd never heard of this program. 595 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:41.309 What the hell did they want a law 596 00:18:41.310 --> 00:18:43.529 student coming in the back door? 597 00:18:43.530 --> 00:18:45.209 They wanted to be able to reject 598 00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:46.859 people, and they couldn't reject me. 599 00:18:48.030 --> 00:18:50.259 And the law school was furious. 600 00:18:50.260 --> 00:18:51.959 They thought I was being frivolous 601 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.689 and abusing the privilege. 602 00:18:54.690 --> 00:18:57.419 And they were so upset 603 00:18:57.420 --> 00:18:59.699 that next year, they canceled 604 00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:01.439 the whole program because of my 605 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:02.999 abuse of it. One of my enduring 606 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:04.529 contributions to the Harvard Law 607 00:19:04.530 --> 00:19:06.419 School was that they got rid of 608 00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:09.029 this wonderful program because of my 609 00:19:09.030 --> 00:19:10.859 abuse. Now, the law 610 00:19:10.860 --> 00:19:13.379 school called me in for 611 00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:15.359 a talk, and they put to 612 00:19:15.360 --> 00:19:16.859 me the question that you've 613 00:19:16.860 --> 00:19:18.479 basically raised here. 614 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:19.199 What's the connection? 615 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:20.159 What's the connection? 616 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:21.929 Why are you doing this? 617 00:19:21.930 --> 00:19:23.759 And my answer to them, I remember 618 00:19:23.760 --> 00:19:25.979 quite clearly at the time, was, 619 00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:28.019 "I cannot articulate what 620 00:19:28.020 --> 00:19:30.239 the connection is, but I feel 621 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.459 the connection inside me. 622 00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:34.829 There is--it does not feel like two 623 00:19:34.830 --> 00:19:36.479 separate things or different things 624 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.189 or conflicting things or even 625 00:19:38.190 --> 00:19:40.079 contrasting things. 626 00:19:40.080 --> 00:19:42.329 I feel like my 627 00:19:42.330 --> 00:19:44.549 passion for learning 628 00:19:44.550 --> 00:19:46.469 things legally and 629 00:19:46.470 --> 00:19:48.329 my passion for reading 630 00:19:48.330 --> 00:19:50.429 poetry and poetic 631 00:19:50.430 --> 00:19:52.399 drama come from 632 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.349 the same place, and I just 633 00:19:54.350 --> 00:19:55.670 haven't got a word for it." 634 00:19:57.320 --> 00:19:58.579 Well, off I went to the English 635 00:19:58.580 --> 00:20:00.589 department and convinced them 636 00:20:00.590 --> 00:20:02.599 that I should stay for the 637 00:20:03.860 --> 00:20:04.759 Ph.D.. 638 00:20:04.760 --> 00:20:05.749 They weren't happy with that 639 00:20:05.750 --> 00:20:06.750 concept, but 640 00:20:07.790 --> 00:20:09.679 I was a young lawyer, and I knew 641 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:11.449 how to argue. So I argued them into 642 00:20:11.450 --> 00:20:13.309 it, and they let 643 00:20:13.310 --> 00:20:15.079 me stay. And it came time 644 00:20:16.250 --> 00:20:17.250 for the 645 00:20:18.500 --> 00:20:20.419 Ph.D. oral exam, and you had to 646 00:20:20.420 --> 00:20:23.059 choose one of five 647 00:20:23.060 --> 00:20:26.359 chronological periods 648 00:20:26.360 --> 00:20:28.279 to do your major part of your 649 00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:30.109 exam. And it was either medieval or 650 00:20:30.110 --> 00:20:32.449 Renaissance or 18th century or 1800 651 00:20:32.450 --> 00:20:33.450 to the present--all those 652 00:20:34.550 --> 00:20:36.082 English, British--or 653 00:20:37.950 --> 00:20:39.439 American, which covered three 654 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:40.440 centuries. 655 00:20:41.210 --> 00:20:42.853 And then you would do your thesis 656 00:20:42.854 --> 00:20:44.749 somewhere within 657 00:20:44.750 --> 00:20:46.279 that field. 658 00:20:46.280 --> 00:20:48.229 And I went to Professor and 659 00:20:48.230 --> 00:20:49.230 asked, 660 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:52.399 "Could I split the fields? 661 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.222 Could I do my exams in 1800 to the 662 00:20:54.223 --> 00:20:56.059 present but write my thesis 663 00:20:56.060 --> 00:20:57.060 in medieval? 664 00:20:57.710 --> 00:20:58.999 And he said, 'Well, yes, you'd be 665 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:00.859 allowed to do that, but I 666 00:21:00.860 --> 00:21:02.869 assure you, you would never find 667 00:21:02.870 --> 00:21:04.879 employment in 668 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:06.739 any university of any stature 669 00:21:06.740 --> 00:21:07.740 whatsoever." 670 00:21:08.660 --> 00:21:10.369 So I did do the split, and the 671 00:21:10.370 --> 00:21:12.289 English department was again upset 672 00:21:12.290 --> 00:21:13.789 with me for being frivolous. 673 00:21:13.790 --> 00:21:16.069 I wasn't taking any fields. 674 00:21:16.070 --> 00:21:17.989 But again, it made sense to me what 675 00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:19.669 I was doing. 676 00:21:19.670 --> 00:21:21.979 I was 39 years old 677 00:21:21.980 --> 00:21:23.869 before the term 678 00:21:23.870 --> 00:21:25.849 rhetoric appeared 679 00:21:25.850 --> 00:21:27.709 on the academic stage 680 00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:29.629 again, and that was 681 00:21:29.630 --> 00:21:31.369 the word I had been missing all this 682 00:21:31.370 --> 00:21:32.179 time. 683 00:21:32.180 --> 00:21:34.069 What I did for 684 00:21:34.070 --> 00:21:36.139 a living was rhetorical 685 00:21:36.140 --> 00:21:37.299 analysis of...fill-in-the-blank. 686 00:21:39.860 --> 00:21:41.869 It could be poetry. It could 687 00:21:41.870 --> 00:21:43.545 be nonfiction prose. 688 00:21:43.546 --> 00:21:45.859 It could be political 689 00:21:45.860 --> 00:21:47.899 speeches in nonfiction 690 00:21:47.900 --> 00:21:48.900 prose. And 691 00:21:50.090 --> 00:21:51.979 it could be from the 692 00:21:51.980 --> 00:21:53.909 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, the 693 00:21:53.910 --> 00:21:56.119 20th century, and 694 00:21:56.120 --> 00:21:57.470 now 21st. 695 00:21:58.670 --> 00:22:00.889 I had taught myself 696 00:22:00.890 --> 00:22:02.029 along the way--since no one was 697 00:22:02.030 --> 00:22:03.030 teaching any of this--I 698 00:22:03.890 --> 00:22:05.450 taught myself along the way 699 00:22:07.850 --> 00:22:09.679 to concentrate on the connection 700 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:11.839 between structure 701 00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:13.159 and substance. 702 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:15.379 And the reader expectation 703 00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:17.479 approach is based on 704 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:19.849 those two words and demonstrating 705 00:22:20.990 --> 00:22:22.798 how that connectivity is made. 706 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:24.132 And at age 39, 707 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:26.629 when the word rhetoric suddenly 708 00:22:26.630 --> 00:22:29.089 became available to me, 709 00:22:29.090 --> 00:22:31.339 I was off reading all of classical 710 00:22:31.340 --> 00:22:33.499 rhetoric and found 711 00:22:33.500 --> 00:22:35.389 that my definition of rhetoric is 712 00:22:35.390 --> 00:22:37.609 different from all 713 00:22:37.610 --> 00:22:39.589 the great classical names. 714 00:22:39.590 --> 00:22:42.229 Aristotle, Quintilian, Cicero, 715 00:22:42.230 --> 00:22:44.239 they define rhetoric as 716 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:46.609 the power of persuasion, 717 00:22:46.610 --> 00:22:48.139 or the ability to make a good 718 00:22:48.140 --> 00:22:50.089 argument, because they 719 00:22:50.090 --> 00:22:51.469 were thinking of rhetoric as 720 00:22:51.470 --> 00:22:53.299 something that was delivered orally 721 00:22:53.300 --> 00:22:54.889 in a public place. 722 00:22:54.890 --> 00:22:56.809 And I was looking at a 723 00:22:56.810 --> 00:22:58.669 written form in my definition 724 00:22:58.670 --> 00:22:59.670 of rhetoric, 725 00:23:00.950 --> 00:23:02.839 which a lot of smart people don't 726 00:23:02.840 --> 00:23:04.999 understand. Stanley Fish himself 727 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:06.319 once called me to say, "What in the 728 00:23:06.320 --> 00:23:07.339 world do you mean by this? 729 00:23:07.340 --> 00:23:08.869 It sounds totally circular." 730 00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:11.876 My definition of rhetoric is 731 00:23:14.790 --> 00:23:16.648 everything in a text 732 00:23:16.649 --> 00:23:17.649 that 733 00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:21.089 persuades you, the 734 00:23:21.090 --> 00:23:23.069 reader, to interpret 735 00:23:23.070 --> 00:23:24.989 the text in the way 736 00:23:24.990 --> 00:23:27.599 you've chosen to interpret it. 737 00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:28.649 Well, and that actually reminds 738 00:23:28.650 --> 00:23:30.629 me--all of this reminds me very much 739 00:23:30.630 --> 00:23:32.489 of an essay that you wrote in 1984 740 00:23:32.490 --> 00:23:34.199 called Rhyme and Reason: Why the 741 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:36.059 Study of Poetry is the Best 742 00:23:36.060 --> 00:23:37.469 Preparation for the Study of Law. 743 00:23:37.470 --> 00:23:38.969 And you argue in it, you say, "The 744 00:23:38.970 --> 00:23:41.039 formalistic study of poetry 745 00:23:41.040 --> 00:23:42.149 is the best preparation for the 746 00:23:42.150 --> 00:23:43.199 study of law." And I wonder if you 747 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:44.159 can you say a little bit--I mean, I 748 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:45.389 think we have been talking about 749 00:23:45.390 --> 00:23:46.229 this, but if you can say a little 750 00:23:46.230 --> 00:23:47.759 bit more about what you mean there 751 00:23:47.760 --> 00:23:49.109 when you talk about the formalistic 752 00:23:49.110 --> 00:23:49.889 study of poetry. 753 00:23:49.890 --> 00:23:51.779 Sure. Now, my 754 00:23:51.780 --> 00:23:53.473 formalistic study of poetry. 755 00:23:54.930 --> 00:23:56.879 I hesitate to use the word because 756 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.489 I don't agree with the formalists 757 00:23:59.490 --> 00:24:01.049 of the early 1970s 758 00:24:02.310 --> 00:24:04.259 who believe that they understood how 759 00:24:04.260 --> 00:24:05.669 the human brain functioned, and 760 00:24:05.670 --> 00:24:07.409 therefore we can take it from there. 761 00:24:07.410 --> 00:24:09.209 Now, I think I know something about 762 00:24:09.210 --> 00:24:11.039 what readers tend to expect, which 763 00:24:11.040 --> 00:24:11.930 has to do with how the-- not how 764 00:24:11.931 --> 00:24:14.279 "the" brain functions, but 765 00:24:14.280 --> 00:24:16.289 our brains here, today, 766 00:24:16.290 --> 00:24:18.389 now in our community. 767 00:24:18.390 --> 00:24:20.219 So I tend in that direction. 768 00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:21.689 But what I like about the term 769 00:24:21.690 --> 00:24:23.369 formalist is that I think that the 770 00:24:23.370 --> 00:24:25.649 form has 771 00:24:25.650 --> 00:24:27.750 impact on the substance. 772 00:24:30.050 --> 00:24:31.050 What I learned 773 00:24:33.350 --> 00:24:35.569 as an undergraduate in poetry 774 00:24:35.570 --> 00:24:37.459 classes, in Shakespeare classes, 775 00:24:38.900 --> 00:24:40.639 was the method that was referred to 776 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:42.469 as the New Criticism, the start 777 00:24:42.470 --> 00:24:43.869 of the 1930s and 40s, 778 00:24:44.990 --> 00:24:46.819 and went strong until 779 00:24:46.820 --> 00:24:48.529 it was displaced by theory in the 780 00:24:48.530 --> 00:24:50.389 1970s. 781 00:24:50.390 --> 00:24:52.519 And when one thing displaces 782 00:24:52.520 --> 00:24:53.689 another, you have to kill it and 783 00:24:53.690 --> 00:24:55.609 stomp it and bury it and hide it 784 00:24:55.610 --> 00:24:57.589 so that nobody ever sees it again. 785 00:24:57.590 --> 00:24:59.989 And it's been 786 00:24:59.990 --> 00:25:01.879 now 40 years. 787 00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:03.829 And although theory kind of died 788 00:25:03.830 --> 00:25:06.349 maybe 10 or 15 years ago, in 789 00:25:06.350 --> 00:25:07.350 some ways, 790 00:25:09.290 --> 00:25:11.539 New Criticism and close textual 791 00:25:11.540 --> 00:25:13.969 analysis of text for its own sake, 792 00:25:13.970 --> 00:25:16.009 as opposed to the sake of 793 00:25:16.010 --> 00:25:17.071 being anti-homophobic 794 00:25:18.530 --> 00:25:19.530 or anti-anti-Semitic 795 00:25:20.360 --> 00:25:21.403 or anti-misogynist 796 00:25:23.330 --> 00:25:24.499 or whatever. 797 00:25:24.500 --> 00:25:26.449 Instead of looking at it for 798 00:25:26.450 --> 00:25:28.489 those purposes, I look 799 00:25:28.490 --> 00:25:30.439 at text to see how the heck does 800 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:31.939 the text function. 801 00:25:31.940 --> 00:25:33.619 My questions to students were 802 00:25:33.620 --> 00:25:35.509 always, at 803 00:25:35.510 --> 00:25:37.309 any given time, two: what does it 804 00:25:37.310 --> 00:25:38.839 mean to you and what in the text 805 00:25:38.840 --> 00:25:39.840 persuaded you 806 00:25:40.700 --> 00:25:43.219 to have that as the meaning? 807 00:25:43.220 --> 00:25:45.529 And I developed a whole 808 00:25:45.530 --> 00:25:47.389 bag of rhetorical tricks for showing 809 00:25:47.390 --> 00:25:49.579 people around poems 810 00:25:49.580 --> 00:25:51.529 and how this kind of balance 811 00:25:51.530 --> 00:25:52.939 or that kind of figures of speech 812 00:25:52.940 --> 00:25:54.559 functioned on them, whether they 813 00:25:54.560 --> 00:25:55.789 knew the name of the figure of 814 00:25:55.790 --> 00:25:57.349 speech or even recognized it was 815 00:25:57.350 --> 00:25:58.669 happening or not. 816 00:25:58.670 --> 00:26:00.439 But how it controlled them. 817 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:02.269 What I then realized when I went to 818 00:26:02.270 --> 00:26:03.949 law school, and why I adored that 819 00:26:03.950 --> 00:26:04.950 first year, is that 820 00:26:06.430 --> 00:26:08.289 law school was 821 00:26:08.290 --> 00:26:10.779 constantly asking the question 822 00:26:10.780 --> 00:26:12.999 that I was asked under New Critical 823 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:14.979 and that I teach to this 824 00:26:14.980 --> 00:26:16.389 day. 825 00:26:16.390 --> 00:26:18.729 I've been a New Critical teacher, 826 00:26:18.730 --> 00:26:20.619 sort of, all my career. 827 00:26:20.620 --> 00:26:22.749 And that question is: 828 00:26:22.750 --> 00:26:24.669 here is a text, and how many 829 00:26:24.670 --> 00:26:27.069 ways can it have meaning? 830 00:26:27.070 --> 00:26:29.259 And the law teaches you: 831 00:26:29.260 --> 00:26:31.299 I don't care what the law says. 832 00:26:31.300 --> 00:26:33.549 It doesn't say anything. 833 00:26:33.550 --> 00:26:35.139 It says what a good lawyer can make 834 00:26:35.140 --> 00:26:36.489 it say. Well, this sounds an awful 835 00:26:36.490 --> 00:26:38.469 lot like, ironically, 836 00:26:38.470 --> 00:26:41.349 what theory brought to the table. 837 00:26:41.350 --> 00:26:43.081 "Is There a Text In This Class?" 838 00:26:44.840 --> 00:26:45.939 [1980 essay by the literary critic Stanley Fish] Does this mean 839 00:26:45.940 --> 00:26:47.679 everything to everybody, or nothing 840 00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:49.209 to nobody, or nothing to everybody, 841 00:26:49.210 --> 00:26:50.499 or everything to nobody? 842 00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:52.419 Hey, it all comes from the reader. 843 00:26:52.420 --> 00:26:53.289 No, no. 844 00:26:53.290 --> 00:26:54.069 It's the text, too. 845 00:26:54.070 --> 00:26:55.569 It's the interaction of reader and 846 00:26:55.570 --> 00:26:57.459 text. I just covered about 15 847 00:26:57.460 --> 00:26:59.409 years of 848 00:26:59.410 --> 00:27:02.409 the history of literary theory 849 00:27:02.410 --> 00:27:04.389 in that sentence, that 850 00:27:04.390 --> 00:27:05.390 run-on sentence. 851 00:27:06.820 --> 00:27:09.039 I see the law asking 852 00:27:09.040 --> 00:27:11.019 the question that 853 00:27:11.020 --> 00:27:13.629 theory actually wound up 854 00:27:13.630 --> 00:27:14.709 asking. 855 00:27:14.710 --> 00:27:16.629 As a professional in law, we 856 00:27:16.630 --> 00:27:18.549 want to teach you to turn around 857 00:27:18.550 --> 00:27:20.559 and see this from 180 degrees 858 00:27:20.560 --> 00:27:21.475 over there. 859 00:27:21.476 --> 00:27:23.289 And do another 90 degrees 860 00:27:23.290 --> 00:27:24.709 and look at it from over there. 861 00:27:24.710 --> 00:27:25.573 Now take a slant view. 862 00:27:25.574 --> 00:27:27.159 And now, take a three-dimensional 863 00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:27.939 view. 864 00:27:27.940 --> 00:27:29.469 How many different ways can you see 865 00:27:29.470 --> 00:27:31.299 this? Because you're going to have 866 00:27:31.300 --> 00:27:33.189 a client, and 867 00:27:33.190 --> 00:27:35.979 your job is to represent the client. 868 00:27:35.980 --> 00:27:38.169 And it's going to happen that you 869 00:27:38.170 --> 00:27:40.749 don't yourself believe 870 00:27:40.750 --> 00:27:42.879 in the client's innocence or lack 871 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:44.859 of liability or rights 872 00:27:44.860 --> 00:27:46.509 under the contract or whatever it 873 00:27:46.510 --> 00:27:47.739 is. 874 00:27:47.740 --> 00:27:49.659 But if you've accepted the client, 875 00:27:49.660 --> 00:27:51.669 it's your job to make the best 876 00:27:51.670 --> 00:27:53.199 case for your client. 877 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:54.939 And then, if you go before a judge, 878 00:27:54.940 --> 00:27:56.289 both lawyers make the best case. 879 00:27:56.290 --> 00:27:58.419 It's the judge's job to say 880 00:27:58.420 --> 00:28:00.339 the most persuasive one 881 00:28:00.340 --> 00:28:02.199 is this. So they didn't care 882 00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:04.539 what the law said or what justice 883 00:28:04.540 --> 00:28:05.709 meant here. 884 00:28:05.710 --> 00:28:07.509 They care for you to figure out how 885 00:28:07.510 --> 00:28:09.129 to turn around and see this from a 886 00:28:09.130 --> 00:28:10.359 different direction. 887 00:28:10.360 --> 00:28:11.949 And I realized that's what I was 888 00:28:11.950 --> 00:28:14.109 doing with texts, with the poems 889 00:28:14.110 --> 00:28:14.919 too. 890 00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:16.179 There are only three kinds of 891 00:28:16.180 --> 00:28:18.129 documents that 892 00:28:18.130 --> 00:28:19.130 I can think of that tell 893 00:28:21.390 --> 00:28:22.390 you before you start word one that 894 00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:27.309 you will have to read this document 895 00:28:27.310 --> 00:28:29.169 many, many times 896 00:28:29.170 --> 00:28:31.329 to penetrate to what it really 897 00:28:31.330 --> 00:28:32.199 does. 898 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:34.479 Because it doesn't have a meaning. 899 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.819 It is multiply capable 900 00:28:36.820 --> 00:28:38.319 of meaning. 901 00:28:38.320 --> 00:28:39.746 And those three documents are 902 00:28:39.747 --> 00:28:40.747 contracts, statutes, 903 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:46.669 and poems. 904 00:28:46.670 --> 00:28:47.809 I want to keep I want to keep on 905 00:28:47.810 --> 00:28:48.810 this theory--this 906 00:28:51.320 --> 00:28:52.249 theme we've been talking about, 907 00:28:52.250 --> 00:28:53.650 about the real world and academia 908 00:28:56.150 --> 00:28:57.150 because-- and 909 00:28:58.100 --> 00:29:00.139 I want to ask you about 910 00:29:00.140 --> 00:29:02.839 an early essay you wrote in 1981. 911 00:29:02.840 --> 00:29:04.639 The title of the essay is 912 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:05.959 Prostitution and the Writing 913 00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:06.960 Consultant: A View of a View. 914 00:29:08.900 --> 00:29:10.287 I may not have to say much about-- 915 00:29:10.288 --> 00:29:11.779 maybe the title does all the work of 916 00:29:11.780 --> 00:29:12.619 explaining what's in that. 917 00:29:12.620 --> 00:29:14.719 But it has to do with the 918 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:16.579 importance for you of being a 919 00:29:16.580 --> 00:29:18.499 consultant and the reactions 920 00:29:18.500 --> 00:29:20.479 that you got from your colleagues 921 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:22.309 in English departments about work 922 00:29:22.310 --> 00:29:24.139 when you were consulting outside 923 00:29:24.140 --> 00:29:25.339 of academia. 924 00:29:25.340 --> 00:29:26.509 And I wonder if you can just say a 925 00:29:26.510 --> 00:29:27.556 little bit about that because you, 926 00:29:29.330 --> 00:29:30.769 in that essay, talk a little bit 927 00:29:30.770 --> 00:29:32.869 about in 1981 what 928 00:29:32.870 --> 00:29:33.859 your thoughts were and what your 929 00:29:33.860 --> 00:29:35.569 experiences were in an academic 930 00:29:35.570 --> 00:29:36.570 English department then. 931 00:29:37.310 --> 00:29:38.539 I'd be interested in hearing about 932 00:29:38.540 --> 00:29:39.919 that. And also, your thoughts on 933 00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:41.659 whether-- do you think we still are 934 00:29:41.660 --> 00:29:43.699 facing the same kinds of 935 00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:44.779 views at this point? 936 00:29:44.780 --> 00:29:46.729 Sure. I think 937 00:29:46.730 --> 00:29:48.229 the title probably doesn't 938 00:29:48.230 --> 00:29:50.959 completely convey to a listener 939 00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:52.729 what's going on here, but I can take 940 00:29:52.730 --> 00:29:54.649 care of that easily. 941 00:29:54.650 --> 00:29:55.650 I was sitting 942 00:29:56.600 --> 00:29:58.099 in the faculty commons 943 00:29:59.420 --> 00:30:01.339 one day back then 944 00:30:01.340 --> 00:30:03.409 with seven or eight other English 945 00:30:03.410 --> 00:30:05.479 professors around a big round table, 946 00:30:07.040 --> 00:30:08.869 and one 947 00:30:08.870 --> 00:30:10.069 colleague turned to me. 948 00:30:10.070 --> 00:30:11.749 She was sitting next to me. 949 00:30:11.750 --> 00:30:13.399 Out of nowhere this comment came. 950 00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:15.259 It did not follow from anything 951 00:30:15.260 --> 00:30:16.849 in the conversation. 952 00:30:16.850 --> 00:30:19.519 And she said in very clear tones, 953 00:30:19.520 --> 00:30:21.619 "I want you to know that I consider 954 00:30:21.620 --> 00:30:24.259 your work as a writing consultant 955 00:30:24.260 --> 00:30:26.419 a form of prostitution." 956 00:30:26.420 --> 00:30:27.679 And she went back to eating her 957 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:28.939 sandwich. 958 00:30:28.940 --> 00:30:31.429 She had no more to say about it. 959 00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:32.674 And I was, may 960 00:30:33.710 --> 00:30:36.109 I say, struck by the metaphor. 961 00:30:36.110 --> 00:30:37.110 So I sat on it. I had to think 962 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.318 what world she meant. 963 00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:41.569 It has to do obviously 964 00:30:41.570 --> 00:30:42.570 with money. 965 00:30:44.990 --> 00:30:47.219 So I started asking not just 966 00:30:47.220 --> 00:30:48.220 my 967 00:30:49.340 --> 00:30:51.169 fellow English teachers, but 968 00:30:51.170 --> 00:30:53.059 as I walked across campus and 969 00:30:53.060 --> 00:30:54.949 saw somebody I would 970 00:30:54.950 --> 00:30:56.899 know from some other department, 971 00:30:56.900 --> 00:30:59.059 stopped them, did this for 972 00:30:59.060 --> 00:31:01.099 a couple of weeks, and I said, 973 00:31:01.100 --> 00:31:03.199 "Can I ask you a question? 974 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:05.179 I go downtown to 975 00:31:05.180 --> 00:31:06.180 a law firm-- 976 00:31:07.760 --> 00:31:08.760 or law firms, 977 00:31:09.770 --> 00:31:11.989 and I teach writing. 978 00:31:11.990 --> 00:31:14.149 And I charge about 979 00:31:14.150 --> 00:31:16.249 ten times as much 980 00:31:16.250 --> 00:31:18.199 for doing that as I've figured 981 00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:20.029 out my hourly rate is 982 00:31:20.030 --> 00:31:21.919 here teaching English 983 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:22.920 in a classroom. 984 00:31:24.260 --> 00:31:26.659 Does this bother you?" 985 00:31:26.660 --> 00:31:28.669 And I was really 986 00:31:28.670 --> 00:31:30.619 quite astonished to find 987 00:31:30.620 --> 00:31:32.479 out how many people 988 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:33.919 it bothered. 989 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:35.779 Now, I was at a Jesuit 990 00:31:35.780 --> 00:31:37.099 university, and maybe that had 991 00:31:37.100 --> 00:31:39.349 something to do with it 992 00:31:39.350 --> 00:31:41.059 because the Jesuits 993 00:31:42.620 --> 00:31:44.278 did not get paid at all, you see. 994 00:31:46.580 --> 00:31:48.709 They lived for free in 995 00:31:48.710 --> 00:31:50.689 the housing 996 00:31:50.690 --> 00:31:53.449 and, although they did not get paid, 997 00:31:53.450 --> 00:31:54.589 they, at the end of the month, were 998 00:31:54.590 --> 00:31:56.449 issued a check 999 00:31:56.450 --> 00:31:58.819 with which they could fight off the 1000 00:31:58.820 --> 00:32:00.469 landlord if they didn't live there. 1001 00:32:00.470 --> 00:32:02.629 Or the guy at the grocery store 1002 00:32:02.630 --> 00:32:04.669 or the clothing 1003 00:32:04.670 --> 00:32:06.499 store. You had to buy things. 1004 00:32:06.500 --> 00:32:08.929 So this was a defense against the 1005 00:32:08.930 --> 00:32:10.292 requirements of the world. 1006 00:32:12.710 --> 00:32:14.749 I was more and more amazed at 1007 00:32:14.750 --> 00:32:16.729 how many-- maybe 90% 1008 00:32:16.730 --> 00:32:18.289 were saying, "Yeah. You know, now 1009 00:32:18.290 --> 00:32:19.759 that you mention it that way, 1010 00:32:21.140 --> 00:32:22.459 I don't think I approve." So I 1011 00:32:22.460 --> 00:32:23.594 started changing the question. 1012 00:32:25.070 --> 00:32:26.719 "Would it be better if I brought 1013 00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:28.669 those lawyers up here on 1014 00:32:28.670 --> 00:32:30.499 campus and sat them down in a room 1015 00:32:30.500 --> 00:32:32.209 in Wilson Hall and taught them 1016 00:32:32.210 --> 00:32:33.994 here?" They liked that better. 1017 00:32:35.030 --> 00:32:36.679 And then, when I suggested that I 1018 00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:38.719 would bring them to Wilson Hall and 1019 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:40.249 I would charge them my normal 1020 00:32:40.250 --> 00:32:42.229 academic hourly rate, 1021 00:32:42.230 --> 00:32:43.819 they like that just fine. 1022 00:32:46.700 --> 00:32:48.229 Then I started asking really 1023 00:32:48.230 --> 00:32:49.230 annoying questions. 1024 00:32:50.600 --> 00:32:52.162 And I thought this hourly wage. 1025 00:32:52.163 --> 00:32:53.989 It's not 1026 00:32:53.990 --> 00:32:55.459 a concept in academia. 1027 00:32:55.460 --> 00:32:58.249 So I started asking, "Tell me, 1028 00:32:58.250 --> 00:33:00.289 how much are you paid per student 1029 00:33:00.290 --> 00:33:03.229 each semester?" They were horrified. 1030 00:33:03.230 --> 00:33:05.059 And I said, "Tell me, when you're 1031 00:33:05.060 --> 00:33:06.469 grading blue books at the end of the 1032 00:33:06.470 --> 00:33:08.779 term, when you finish a blue book, 1033 00:33:08.780 --> 00:33:10.639 how much did you make grading that 1034 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:11.640 blue book?" Horrified. 1035 00:33:13.011 --> 00:33:14.899 You're not supposed to look at 1036 00:33:14.900 --> 00:33:16.008 things that way. 1037 00:33:16.009 --> 00:33:16.849 That sullies the whole thing. 1038 00:33:16.850 --> 00:33:19.699 So what I discovered was 1039 00:33:19.700 --> 00:33:20.700 why the prostitution metaphor. I 1040 00:33:23.030 --> 00:33:25.279 was, they said, selling 1041 00:33:25.280 --> 00:33:26.959 on the street what I should be 1042 00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:28.400 giving away at home for free. 1043 00:33:30.020 --> 00:33:32.089 And once I understood 1044 00:33:32.090 --> 00:33:34.189 that I knew 1045 00:33:34.190 --> 00:33:36.469 how not to talk about my consulting 1046 00:33:36.470 --> 00:33:37.470 work on campus. And I 1047 00:33:41.350 --> 00:33:43.569 understood better what 1048 00:33:43.570 --> 00:33:45.579 people felt about the teaching. 1049 00:33:45.580 --> 00:33:47.859 There was a kind of 1050 00:33:47.860 --> 00:33:50.109 moral superiority 1051 00:33:50.110 --> 00:33:51.699 to much of the rest of the world, 1052 00:33:51.700 --> 00:33:53.166 certainly to the business world. 1053 00:33:53.167 --> 00:33:54.789 A kind of 1054 00:33:55.900 --> 00:33:57.489 virtuous tenor 1055 00:33:58.840 --> 00:34:00.759 that teachers who did not get 1056 00:34:00.760 --> 00:34:02.559 rewarded by the world with high 1057 00:34:02.560 --> 00:34:04.749 salaries could 1058 00:34:04.750 --> 00:34:06.879 feel to make them 1059 00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:08.209 above the other people. 1060 00:34:08.210 --> 00:34:09.099 When the other people thought, "I'm 1061 00:34:09.100 --> 00:34:10.718 above you because I made so much 1062 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:11.719 money," 1063 00:34:12.610 --> 00:34:14.799 they were virtuously giving 1064 00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:15.800 away, at home, stuff 1065 00:34:18.100 --> 00:34:20.589 that was important to give away. 1066 00:34:20.590 --> 00:34:22.329 Well, this kind of reminds me-- just 1067 00:34:22.330 --> 00:34:23.319 kind of thinking back over the 1068 00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:25.269 history of the field reminds me 1069 00:34:25.270 --> 00:34:27.279 of a piece that you wrote just 1070 00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:28.809 last year in a contribution to a 1071 00:34:28.810 --> 00:34:30.459 book on independent writing 1072 00:34:30.460 --> 00:34:31.388 programs. 1073 00:34:31.389 --> 00:34:32.799 And you have the epilogue in that 1074 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:33.849 book. And it's kind of you looking 1075 00:34:33.850 --> 00:34:35.738 back over your 40 plus years 1076 00:34:35.739 --> 00:34:37.269 working in English departments and 1077 00:34:37.270 --> 00:34:38.459 working for writing programs and 1078 00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:41.499 teaching literature as well all the 1079 00:34:41.500 --> 00:34:42.500 time. 1080 00:34:43.330 --> 00:34:45.279 And there are, as you look back 1081 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:47.138 on these 40 plus years, there are 1082 00:34:47.139 --> 00:34:49.448 two years that are really central 1083 00:34:49.449 --> 00:34:51.039 to you, as I see it in your account. 1084 00:34:51.040 --> 00:34:53.169 One is 1973, 1085 00:34:53.170 --> 00:34:54.999 and that's the Arab oil embargo. 1086 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:56.211 The other one is 2008. 1087 00:34:56.212 --> 00:34:57.939 And that's the global financial 1088 00:34:57.940 --> 00:34:59.739 crisis. You see both of these as 1089 00:34:59.740 --> 00:35:02.109 introducing new changes into 1090 00:35:02.110 --> 00:35:03.249 English departments, but also it 1091 00:35:03.250 --> 00:35:04.269 seems to me like humanities 1092 00:35:04.270 --> 00:35:05.769 education in general. 1093 00:35:05.770 --> 00:35:06.969 And I wonder if you can talk about 1094 00:35:06.970 --> 00:35:08.739 the importance of those two dates 1095 00:35:08.740 --> 00:35:09.189 for you. 1096 00:35:09.190 --> 00:35:11.079 Happy to. And I would add to your 1097 00:35:11.080 --> 00:35:12.793 list independent writing programs. 1098 00:35:12.794 --> 00:35:13.794 That 1099 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:16.599 is what they asked me to talk about. 1100 00:35:16.600 --> 00:35:17.600 I believe--I 1101 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:23.954 haven't seen anybody else say this, 1102 00:35:23.955 --> 00:35:25.602 it's just my quirky mind--that 1103 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:31.409 the Arab oil embargo from 1973 1104 00:35:31.410 --> 00:35:34.289 had profound effects 1105 00:35:34.290 --> 00:35:36.389 on the humanities, but 1106 00:35:36.390 --> 00:35:39.119 especially English departments 1107 00:35:39.120 --> 00:35:41.159 and the profession of 1108 00:35:41.160 --> 00:35:42.509 teaching writing, which really 1109 00:35:42.510 --> 00:35:44.179 wasn't a profession at that point. 1110 00:35:44.180 --> 00:35:45.419 If you were an English department, 1111 00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:47.039 you did it sometimes. 1112 00:35:47.040 --> 00:35:48.689 When you got good enough or old 1113 00:35:48.690 --> 00:35:50.309 enough, you didn't have to do it 1114 00:35:50.310 --> 00:35:51.310 anymore. 1115 00:35:54.380 --> 00:35:56.779 With the extraordinary 1116 00:35:56.780 --> 00:35:58.789 shock that this gave to the country, 1117 00:35:58.790 --> 00:36:00.709 that life really might not be the 1118 00:36:00.710 --> 00:36:02.959 same as we had 1119 00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:03.799 grown to expect. 1120 00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:06.019 I mean, the gas was 24, 1121 00:36:06.020 --> 00:36:07.969 28 cents a gallon when I was 1122 00:36:07.970 --> 00:36:09.169 a graduate student. 1123 00:36:09.170 --> 00:36:10.729 I think probably 28. 1124 00:36:10.730 --> 00:36:12.739 And I commuted 90 miles 1125 00:36:12.740 --> 00:36:14.269 a day, and I could afford to do it 1126 00:36:14.270 --> 00:36:15.139 at $0.28. 1127 00:36:15.140 --> 00:36:16.549 But if it was going to go to, "Oh my 1128 00:36:16.550 --> 00:36:19.039 God, 75," they said, 1129 00:36:19.040 --> 00:36:20.390 forget about $4. 1130 00:36:21.470 --> 00:36:22.470 It would be 1131 00:36:24.260 --> 00:36:25.129 disastrous. 1132 00:36:25.130 --> 00:36:26.929 I mean, think of the trucking costs. 1133 00:36:26.930 --> 00:36:27.750 Food would change. 1134 00:36:27.751 --> 00:36:29.269 Everything was going to change. 1135 00:36:31.010 --> 00:36:33.139 And businesses all over 1136 00:36:33.140 --> 00:36:35.629 the country brought in consultants 1137 00:36:35.630 --> 00:36:37.579 to say, "What do we look like?" And 1138 00:36:37.580 --> 00:36:39.799 academia apparently did it, too. 1139 00:36:41.390 --> 00:36:43.519 And the consultants howled 1140 00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:44.690 with disbelief. 1141 00:36:46.190 --> 00:36:49.729 Harvard had been accepting 120 1142 00:36:49.730 --> 00:36:50.989 into the English Ph.D. 1143 00:36:50.990 --> 00:36:53.569 program every year for 1144 00:36:53.570 --> 00:36:55.789 ages since the end of World War II. 1145 00:36:55.790 --> 00:36:57.739 We'd send 25 people a year 1146 00:36:57.740 --> 00:36:59.149 to go teach in the California 1147 00:36:59.150 --> 00:37:00.150 system. And 1148 00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:03.319 we were giving 40-year jobs, 1149 00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:05.239 tenured jobs, which weren't going 1150 00:37:05.240 --> 00:37:06.979 to open up again. 1151 00:37:06.980 --> 00:37:09.799 And since the growth 1152 00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:11.899 in the industry of English 1153 00:37:11.900 --> 00:37:14.719 teaching was like wildfire 1154 00:37:14.720 --> 00:37:16.309 after World War II, we kept on 1155 00:37:16.310 --> 00:37:18.079 doubling and tripling the size of 1156 00:37:18.080 --> 00:37:19.279 English departments. People got 1157 00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:20.869 degrees. 1158 00:37:20.870 --> 00:37:22.099 More and more and more English 1159 00:37:22.100 --> 00:37:23.779 teachers were needed. 1160 00:37:23.780 --> 00:37:25.849 And our English departments and our 1161 00:37:25.850 --> 00:37:28.099 deanships were run 1162 00:37:28.100 --> 00:37:29.389 not by people who were 1163 00:37:29.390 --> 00:37:31.519 business-minded but by people with 1164 00:37:31.520 --> 00:37:33.619 tweed jackets with the leather patch 1165 00:37:33.620 --> 00:37:35.659 on the elbow who didn't 1166 00:37:35.660 --> 00:37:37.219 want to write one more book on 1167 00:37:37.220 --> 00:37:39.139 history and thought they'd maybe go 1168 00:37:39.140 --> 00:37:40.789 down to the dean's office and play 1169 00:37:40.790 --> 00:37:42.319 Dean for a while. 1170 00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.191 That's a little unkind, but it's 1171 00:37:45.350 --> 00:37:46.819 fair as an overview, I think. 1172 00:37:46.820 --> 00:37:48.404 Well, it's back in the time when we 1173 00:37:48.405 --> 00:37:49.459 were just talking about where the 1174 00:37:49.460 --> 00:37:50.959 kind of the business world and the 1175 00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:52.429 world of the university were seen as 1176 00:37:52.430 --> 00:37:53.959 being--we have to keep these two 1177 00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:54.229 apart. 1178 00:37:54.230 --> 00:37:55.009 Absolutely. 1179 00:37:55.010 --> 00:37:56.989 One would sully the other, and the 1180 00:37:56.990 --> 00:37:59.119 other would drag down 1181 00:37:59.120 --> 00:38:00.120 the one. 1182 00:38:03.010 --> 00:38:04.084 So all of a sudden, we 1183 00:38:05.170 --> 00:38:07.059 realized, hey, we're not going 1184 00:38:07.060 --> 00:38:08.409 to be able to place these people. 1185 00:38:08.410 --> 00:38:10.059 And we cut down, cut down, cut down. 1186 00:38:10.060 --> 00:38:11.060 Harvard went from 120 to 90. The 1187 00:38:12.100 --> 00:38:13.100 next year to 1188 00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:16.899 58. The next year, my year, to 47. 1189 00:38:16.900 --> 00:38:18.909 But when I got out six years later, 1190 00:38:18.910 --> 00:38:20.709 it was 16. 1191 00:38:20.710 --> 00:38:22.569 And then, two years after that, it 1192 00:38:22.570 --> 00:38:23.949 was like seven. 1193 00:38:23.950 --> 00:38:26.169 Fell from 120 to 7 in a decade. 1194 00:38:26.170 --> 00:38:27.789 And they couldn't place the seven so 1195 00:38:27.790 --> 00:38:28.689 easily, either. 1196 00:38:28.690 --> 00:38:31.329 So it's a whole fractured 1197 00:38:31.330 --> 00:38:32.679 industry. 1198 00:38:32.680 --> 00:38:35.859 At the same time, the students 1199 00:38:35.860 --> 00:38:37.449 said, "Oh my god, I can't afford to 1200 00:38:37.450 --> 00:38:38.889 study English. I have to go do 1201 00:38:38.890 --> 00:38:40.719 something that will make me 1202 00:38:40.720 --> 00:38:42.969 money." So the 800 1203 00:38:42.970 --> 00:38:45.009 English majors at Harvard and at 1204 00:38:45.010 --> 00:38:46.629 Loyola, which are schools of the 1205 00:38:46.630 --> 00:38:49.239 same size, in the mid-sixties, 1206 00:38:49.240 --> 00:38:51.399 became 125 1207 00:38:51.400 --> 00:38:52.400 in the later seventies. 1208 00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:55.869 So all of a sudden, there wasn't a 1209 00:38:55.870 --> 00:38:58.029 job for the English professors, 1210 00:38:58.030 --> 00:38:59.349 who are all tenured, sitting around 1211 00:38:59.350 --> 00:39:00.579 to do because it didn't have any 1212 00:39:00.580 --> 00:39:02.049 students anymore. 1213 00:39:02.050 --> 00:39:04.059 So they solve this problem by 1214 00:39:04.060 --> 00:39:06.159 declaring a literacy crisis. 1215 00:39:06.160 --> 00:39:08.199 Johnny and Janie can't write, so 1216 00:39:08.200 --> 00:39:09.609 we're going to have to pick up the 1217 00:39:09.610 --> 00:39:11.619 slack from the high schools 1218 00:39:11.620 --> 00:39:12.470 and require composition. 1219 00:39:12.471 --> 00:39:14.259 Because all of a sudden, every 1220 00:39:14.260 --> 00:39:16.359 single freshman is in an English 1221 00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:19.299 classroom somewhere, and we save 1222 00:39:19.300 --> 00:39:21.159 the day for the finances of 1223 00:39:21.160 --> 00:39:22.989 the English department. 1224 00:39:22.990 --> 00:39:23.990 So we all 1225 00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:27.299 of a sudden had people teaching 1226 00:39:27.300 --> 00:39:29.249 composition who hated to do it, 1227 00:39:29.250 --> 00:39:30.689 but they were doing it. 1228 00:39:30.690 --> 00:39:32.609 And instead of a job saying, 1229 00:39:32.610 --> 00:39:34.619 "We want a Miltonist, and, by 1230 00:39:34.620 --> 00:39:36.239 the way, you might have to teach 1231 00:39:36.240 --> 00:39:38.099 some composition." The 1232 00:39:38.100 --> 00:39:39.959 job was, "You're going to teach 1233 00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:41.339 composition most of the time. 1234 00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:42.749 It'd be helpful if you could teach a 1235 00:39:42.750 --> 00:39:44.009 course in Milton every once in a 1236 00:39:44.010 --> 00:39:47.099 while." So it fractured. 1237 00:39:47.100 --> 00:39:49.109 I mean, the 47 accepted 1238 00:39:49.110 --> 00:39:51.059 in my class, to my knowledge, 1239 00:39:51.060 --> 00:39:53.009 only five of us ever got 1240 00:39:53.010 --> 00:39:54.719 a job. And of those five, only three 1241 00:39:54.720 --> 00:39:56.999 of us made a career 1242 00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:58.338 of it, which is astonishing 1243 00:39:59.340 --> 00:40:00.340 numbers. 1244 00:40:01.710 --> 00:40:03.869 So we were changed, 1245 00:40:03.870 --> 00:40:06.359 and the English department 1246 00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:08.129 got the message from the students 1247 00:40:08.130 --> 00:40:08.939 leaving. 1248 00:40:08.940 --> 00:40:11.399 We are not relevant anymore. 1249 00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:13.379 We don't function in this new 1250 00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:14.459 world. 1251 00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:16.349 So English had to find a new way to 1252 00:40:16.350 --> 00:40:18.689 be relevant. But lo and behold, 1253 00:40:18.690 --> 00:40:20.879 the moment of literary 1254 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:22.799 theory coming from France 1255 00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:25.409 happened at that very time, 1256 00:40:25.410 --> 00:40:27.629 and the smart English professors 1257 00:40:27.630 --> 00:40:29.459 said, "Oh, we can grab on 1258 00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:30.779 to this because what this 1259 00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:32.326 does--we're good working with 1260 00:40:32.327 --> 00:40:34.259 words--and this allows us 1261 00:40:34.260 --> 00:40:36.239 to work with words in all sorts 1262 00:40:36.240 --> 00:40:37.169 of interesting ways. 1263 00:40:37.170 --> 00:40:38.999 Almost as if they had gone to 1264 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:40.000 law school. 1265 00:40:41.250 --> 00:40:43.409 And we can invade all 1266 00:40:43.410 --> 00:40:44.278 the relevant fields. 1267 00:40:44.279 --> 00:40:46.499 We can go poke our nose 1268 00:40:46.500 --> 00:40:47.500 into 1269 00:40:48.570 --> 00:40:50.279 psychology and sociology and 1270 00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:53.099 economics and anthropology 1271 00:40:53.100 --> 00:40:55.229 and all 1272 00:40:55.230 --> 00:40:57.029 sorts of places where we haven't 1273 00:40:57.030 --> 00:40:59.189 been before, using 1274 00:40:59.190 --> 00:41:00.869 language to do it. 1275 00:41:00.870 --> 00:41:03.029 And we can do it through theory." 1276 00:41:03.030 --> 00:41:04.337 So all of a sudden, you had an upper 1277 00:41:04.338 --> 00:41:06.209 class in English that was theory 1278 00:41:06.210 --> 00:41:08.339 and a large lower class 1279 00:41:08.340 --> 00:41:10.049 teaching writing, which nobody ever 1280 00:41:10.050 --> 00:41:11.579 figured out how to teach. 1281 00:41:11.580 --> 00:41:13.469 And it was just a split. 1282 00:41:13.470 --> 00:41:15.479 And finally, universities said, 1283 00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:16.889 "Let's take the writing stuff and 1284 00:41:16.890 --> 00:41:18.779 make it separate." And they 1285 00:41:18.780 --> 00:41:20.609 formed their own units. 1286 00:41:20.610 --> 00:41:22.589 So that fracture--we haven't 1287 00:41:22.590 --> 00:41:24.179 gotten over that fracture 1288 00:41:24.180 --> 00:41:25.529 completely. But it's interesting 1289 00:41:25.530 --> 00:41:27.719 that right as we speak, 1290 00:41:27.720 --> 00:41:29.579 there is a movement to have the 1291 00:41:29.580 --> 00:41:31.349 English departments take over the 1292 00:41:31.350 --> 00:41:32.489 writing programs again. 1293 00:41:32.490 --> 00:41:34.109 This is happening many places in the 1294 00:41:34.110 --> 00:41:36.239 country, and I think it's probably 1295 00:41:36.240 --> 00:41:37.179 a financial move. 1296 00:41:37.180 --> 00:41:38.579 I don't know. I haven't looked at it 1297 00:41:38.580 --> 00:41:39.989 closely. 1298 00:41:39.990 --> 00:41:41.999 I have no knowledge of that. 1299 00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:43.050 2008. 1300 00:41:45.140 --> 00:41:46.969 Another economic fracture. 1301 00:41:48.990 --> 00:41:51.119 Response from the students very 1302 00:41:51.120 --> 00:41:52.414 much the same. 1303 00:41:52.415 --> 00:41:53.789 We have to do something. 1304 00:41:53.790 --> 00:41:55.229 It's going to allow us to pay. 1305 00:41:55.230 --> 00:41:56.602 And now, there's debt and loans. 1306 00:41:56.603 --> 00:41:58.439 That's an issue that was not as much 1307 00:41:58.440 --> 00:41:58.769 before. 1308 00:41:58.770 --> 00:42:00.179 Right. I mean, all of a sudden, 1309 00:42:00.180 --> 00:42:02.279 education at a top school 1310 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:04.730 is a quarter of a million 1311 00:42:04.731 --> 00:42:06.479 dollars. Whereas, when I went to law 1312 00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:08.699 school, my law school tuition 1313 00:42:08.700 --> 00:42:10.589 was 1700 a 1314 00:42:10.590 --> 00:42:11.590 year. 1315 00:42:13.050 --> 00:42:14.759 It's a whole different world in 1316 00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:16.289 terms of money and education. 1317 00:42:17.490 --> 00:42:19.829 So they are fleeing 1318 00:42:19.830 --> 00:42:20.830 again. 1319 00:42:22.020 --> 00:42:23.999 That's part of it. 1320 00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.919 At a place like Duke, 1321 00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:27.899 literally, the entire 1322 00:42:27.900 --> 00:42:30.299 student body has a double major. 1323 00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:32.249 I don't know any student who doesn't 1324 00:42:32.250 --> 00:42:33.389 do two. 1325 00:42:33.390 --> 00:42:34.390 And why are they doing two? 1326 00:42:35.190 --> 00:42:37.079 Because a part of their heart 1327 00:42:37.080 --> 00:42:38.849 still wants to go read, in this 1328 00:42:38.850 --> 00:42:40.349 case, literature. 1329 00:42:40.350 --> 00:42:41.909 But they can't be an English major. 1330 00:42:41.910 --> 00:42:45.089 Their parents would just explode. 1331 00:42:45.090 --> 00:42:47.759 The money for college may disappear. 1332 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:49.589 So they are an economics major 1333 00:42:49.590 --> 00:42:51.899 or a business major, an engineering 1334 00:42:51.900 --> 00:42:52.829 major, something that's got a 1335 00:42:52.830 --> 00:42:53.609 function. 1336 00:42:53.610 --> 00:42:55.319 But they're also an English major in 1337 00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:56.459 the university. 1338 00:42:56.460 --> 00:42:58.319 Wisely seeing that this is 1339 00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:00.509 the only way to save the humanities 1340 00:43:00.510 --> 00:43:02.609 has made this easier for them to do 1341 00:43:02.610 --> 00:43:04.490 so. It's not like two full 1342 00:43:04.491 --> 00:43:05.491 majors before. And, see, 1343 00:43:06.450 --> 00:43:08.309 when you're doing two, there are 1344 00:43:08.310 --> 00:43:10.319 ways of combining things or 1345 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:11.489 cutting corners or whatever. 1346 00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:15.629 If that were the only result, 1347 00:43:15.630 --> 00:43:18.750 it would be very much like 1973. 1348 00:43:20.070 --> 00:43:21.599 But something else has happened to 1349 00:43:21.600 --> 00:43:22.600 these students. 1350 00:43:24.130 --> 00:43:25.130 They no longer-- this 1351 00:43:26.770 --> 00:43:28.569 is a broad statement to make. 1352 00:43:28.570 --> 00:43:30.669 And I should only make it about 1353 00:43:30.670 --> 00:43:31.899 a school like Duke. 1354 00:43:31.900 --> 00:43:32.900 I don't know if it 1355 00:43:34.450 --> 00:43:35.610 holds at other kinds of places. 1356 00:43:35.611 --> 00:43:37.420 But at an elitist school like Duke, 1357 00:43:39.010 --> 00:43:40.929 they are no longer interested 1358 00:43:40.930 --> 00:43:42.619 in education. 1359 00:43:42.620 --> 00:43:43.929 They are only interested in 1360 00:43:43.930 --> 00:43:45.309 accreditation. 1361 00:43:45.310 --> 00:43:46.179 And you've noticed this in 1362 00:43:46.180 --> 00:43:47.199 particular since 2008? 1363 00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:49.779 Horrifyingly since 2008. 1364 00:43:49.780 --> 00:43:51.669 Now, I retired from teaching 1365 00:43:51.670 --> 00:43:54.129 in 2012-- teaching undergraduates 1366 00:43:54.130 --> 00:43:55.959 2012. 1367 00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:58.119 Did teach two more courses, but 1368 00:43:58.120 --> 00:43:59.500 2012, I was basically through. 1369 00:44:01.270 --> 00:44:03.159 Although the extra course in 13 1370 00:44:03.160 --> 00:44:05.709 and 14, I guess, is part of this. 1371 00:44:05.710 --> 00:44:08.739 I saw my students disappear. 1372 00:44:08.740 --> 00:44:10.299 Now, the bodies were still in the 1373 00:44:10.300 --> 00:44:11.300 classroom, 1374 00:44:12.160 --> 00:44:14.169 and the minds were, but 1375 00:44:14.170 --> 00:44:16.239 the hearts and the souls 1376 00:44:16.240 --> 00:44:17.019 had departed. 1377 00:44:17.020 --> 00:44:18.579 And you could see it in the blank 1378 00:44:18.580 --> 00:44:20.589 look in the eye, which is, after 1379 00:44:20.590 --> 00:44:22.119 all, the window to the soul. 1380 00:44:22.120 --> 00:44:23.120 Right? 1381 00:44:25.060 --> 00:44:26.740 I always taught Shakespeare. 1382 00:44:29.030 --> 00:44:29.839 Shakespearean text had not 1383 00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:32.270 deteriorated after 2008. 1384 00:44:33.500 --> 00:44:35.149 I, as teacher of Shakespeare, had 1385 00:44:35.150 --> 00:44:36.889 not deteriorated. 1386 00:44:36.890 --> 00:44:38.809 Even with some advancing age, 1387 00:44:38.810 --> 00:44:40.699 I continued to get better as 1388 00:44:40.700 --> 00:44:43.129 my career went. 1389 00:44:43.130 --> 00:44:44.659 When I stop getting better, I will 1390 00:44:44.660 --> 00:44:46.279 think about stopping altogether. 1391 00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:48.349 But I'm still getting better 1392 00:44:48.350 --> 00:44:49.350 each year. 1393 00:44:50.420 --> 00:44:52.609 I'm teaching my heart out to 40-45 1394 00:44:52.610 --> 00:44:54.799 students in Shakespeare, 1395 00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:57.049 and only one or two 1396 00:44:57.050 --> 00:44:58.969 are moved. And they can't 1397 00:44:58.970 --> 00:45:00.949 show it in the classroom 1398 00:45:00.950 --> 00:45:02.719 because they would get reputation 1399 00:45:02.720 --> 00:45:04.999 for something that would not be 1400 00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.339 appropriate, relevant, steely, 1401 00:45:07.340 --> 00:45:08.599 hard-nosed, whatever. 1402 00:45:10.870 --> 00:45:12.759 And all I get from them is 1403 00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:14.169 questions about whether it's going 1404 00:45:14.170 --> 00:45:16.599 to be on the exam, or 1405 00:45:16.600 --> 00:45:18.729 do we really have to know this? 1406 00:45:20.020 --> 00:45:21.999 The plagiarism 1407 00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:25.299 has gone wild with the Internet. 1408 00:45:25.300 --> 00:45:26.739 People say, "I'm taking this course, 1409 00:45:26.740 --> 00:45:28.629 but what real meaning 1410 00:45:28.630 --> 00:45:30.639 does this course have for my real 1411 00:45:30.640 --> 00:45:31.659 life? 1412 00:45:31.660 --> 00:45:33.459 So I'll just go on the Internet and 1413 00:45:33.460 --> 00:45:35.379 find stuff and cobble together a 1414 00:45:35.380 --> 00:45:36.380 paper." 1415 00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:39.849 And of all 1416 00:45:39.850 --> 00:45:41.979 the English majors that I dealt 1417 00:45:41.980 --> 00:45:43.899 with up close and 1418 00:45:43.900 --> 00:45:46.299 personal in my last 1419 00:45:46.300 --> 00:45:48.549 several years, six, seven years, 1420 00:45:48.550 --> 00:45:50.439 maybe even a little longer than 1421 00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:52.449 that, only 1422 00:45:52.450 --> 00:45:54.849 one went on to graduate school 1423 00:45:54.850 --> 00:45:56.529 and anything having to do with 1424 00:45:56.530 --> 00:45:58.449 English. She just was an 1425 00:45:58.450 --> 00:46:00.279 artsy kind of kid, and she went 1426 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:02.169 on to a creative writing 1427 00:46:02.170 --> 00:46:03.759 program in Iowa. 1428 00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:06.309 All the rest became either 1429 00:46:06.310 --> 00:46:09.059 investment bankers or consultants. 1430 00:46:09.060 --> 00:46:10.779 And I've stayed in touch with many 1431 00:46:10.780 --> 00:46:12.789 of them, and not a single one 1432 00:46:12.790 --> 00:46:14.409 of them has a happy story to tell 1433 00:46:14.410 --> 00:46:15.550 five or ten years later. 1434 00:46:17.380 --> 00:46:18.519 So where to from here? 1435 00:46:18.520 --> 00:46:19.520 You do have a recommendation, and 1436 00:46:20.980 --> 00:46:22.599 it has to--it connects to the 1437 00:46:22.600 --> 00:46:24.519 conversation we've been having for 1438 00:46:24.520 --> 00:46:24.969 the last hour here. 1439 00:46:24.970 --> 00:46:26.979 Well, I have a 1440 00:46:26.980 --> 00:46:29.019 dire prediction in the where to 1441 00:46:29.020 --> 00:46:30.969 from here that I'm 1442 00:46:30.970 --> 00:46:31.899 not happy about. 1443 00:46:31.900 --> 00:46:33.939 But I do think it's 1444 00:46:33.940 --> 00:46:35.049 going to happen. I think 1445 00:46:35.050 --> 00:46:37.479 universities now 1446 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:39.429 have gone the way of the students. 1447 00:46:39.430 --> 00:46:40.430 They agree with each other. We 1448 00:46:43.720 --> 00:46:45.609 had no business concept at 1449 00:46:45.610 --> 00:46:47.379 all in the dean's office or even the 1450 00:46:47.380 --> 00:46:50.319 provost's office back in 1973. 1451 00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:52.179 But we have swung far in 1452 00:46:52.180 --> 00:46:53.439 the other direction. 1453 00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:54.729 And now, everybody in the 1454 00:46:54.730 --> 00:46:56.769 administration building has 1455 00:46:56.770 --> 00:46:58.929 dollar signs in their eyes 1456 00:46:58.930 --> 00:47:00.129 and in their ears and in their 1457 00:47:00.130 --> 00:47:02.019 mouths and on their desk 1458 00:47:02.020 --> 00:47:04.059 at all times. 1459 00:47:04.060 --> 00:47:05.979 And we'll do the 1460 00:47:05.980 --> 00:47:07.479 things which make money. 1461 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:09.459 We won't do things if they 1462 00:47:09.460 --> 00:47:11.889 lose money. And I have discovered 1463 00:47:11.890 --> 00:47:13.719 that they won't do things if they 1464 00:47:13.720 --> 00:47:15.579 break even, 1465 00:47:15.580 --> 00:47:16.408 which is, you know. 1466 00:47:16.409 --> 00:47:18.339 But this is a great educational 1467 00:47:18.340 --> 00:47:19.719 advance! I'm sorry. 1468 00:47:19.720 --> 00:47:20.769 It breaks even. 1469 00:47:20.770 --> 00:47:22.179 We can't afford to do that. 1470 00:47:22.180 --> 00:47:23.884 We're here to make some money. 1471 00:47:23.885 --> 00:47:25.320 Sooner or later, universities 1472 00:47:27.580 --> 00:47:29.439 across the land have got to 1473 00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:31.719 say, "You know, those 1474 00:47:31.720 --> 00:47:34.029 humanities departments, history, 1475 00:47:34.030 --> 00:47:36.339 religion, philosophy, 1476 00:47:36.340 --> 00:47:37.814 English, literature. 1477 00:47:39.550 --> 00:47:41.139 They don't bring in any money. 1478 00:47:41.140 --> 00:47:42.789 These people don't get grants. 1479 00:47:42.790 --> 00:47:44.829 We get overhead. 1480 00:47:44.830 --> 00:47:46.509 Even if they win awards, they take 1481 00:47:46.510 --> 00:47:47.709 them away. They don't give them to 1482 00:47:47.710 --> 00:47:48.699 us. 1483 00:47:48.700 --> 00:47:50.829 We have prestige, and we 1484 00:47:50.830 --> 00:47:52.839 do a service, and we are a liberal 1485 00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:53.709 arts school. 1486 00:47:53.710 --> 00:47:56.139 So we want to teach the humanities, 1487 00:47:56.140 --> 00:47:57.999 but golly gee, we've got 48 1488 00:47:58.000 --> 00:47:59.419 people in the English department. 1489 00:47:59.420 --> 00:48:01.119 You know what we could do if we got 1490 00:48:01.120 --> 00:48:02.559 rid of those 48 people with the 1491 00:48:02.560 --> 00:48:03.351 money we would save. 1492 00:48:03.352 --> 00:48:05.679 Just the benefits 1493 00:48:05.680 --> 00:48:07.719 alone, never mind the salaries, 1494 00:48:07.720 --> 00:48:09.429 overwhelming. 1495 00:48:09.430 --> 00:48:10.959 But you know, we can't give up on 1496 00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:12.159 the humanities because then we're 1497 00:48:12.160 --> 00:48:13.959 not liberal arts, and people won't 1498 00:48:13.960 --> 00:48:15.339 come here. They'll go to other 1499 00:48:15.340 --> 00:48:17.259 places. So what will we do? 1500 00:48:17.260 --> 00:48:19.239 We cannot fire tenured faculty 1501 00:48:19.240 --> 00:48:20.240 members. 1502 00:48:21.090 --> 00:48:22.379 And we can't just say, 'Oh, we'll 1503 00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:23.759 give up giving tenure.' Because 1504 00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:25.889 it'll take 20, 30, 40 1505 00:48:25.890 --> 00:48:27.179 years to get rid of the tenured 1506 00:48:27.180 --> 00:48:28.799 faculty members we have. 1507 00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:29.800 What we can do is 1508 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:33.829 give up the department." Yale 1509 00:48:33.830 --> 00:48:35.389 did this, I think, with sociology 1510 00:48:35.390 --> 00:48:37.189 back in the seventies. 1511 00:48:37.190 --> 00:48:39.589 If you disembody 1512 00:48:39.590 --> 00:48:41.419 the whole department, there is no 1513 00:48:41.420 --> 00:48:43.340 longer a department of English, 1514 00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:45.409 then none of those English 1515 00:48:45.410 --> 00:48:47.749 professors have tenure anywhere. 1516 00:48:47.750 --> 00:48:48.799 And therefore, the tenure is 1517 00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:50.359 meaningless. 1518 00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:52.279 So what say we get rid 1519 00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:54.259 of the five humanities 1520 00:48:54.260 --> 00:48:57.229 departments altogether, 1521 00:48:57.230 --> 00:48:59.179 and we keep the top 1522 00:48:59.180 --> 00:49:01.219 20% branded 1523 00:49:01.220 --> 00:49:02.220 names 1524 00:49:03.200 --> 00:49:04.759 and put them all together in a 1525 00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:06.169 department that we now call the 1526 00:49:06.170 --> 00:49:08.539 Department of Humanities. 1527 00:49:08.540 --> 00:49:09.979 I mean, MIT has had a Department of 1528 00:49:09.980 --> 00:49:10.980 Humanities forever. And 1529 00:49:12.830 --> 00:49:14.719 we will get rid of 80% 1530 00:49:14.720 --> 00:49:16.549 of the cost. Think what we could do 1531 00:49:16.550 --> 00:49:17.509 with that. 1532 00:49:17.510 --> 00:49:19.669 And it will still have these famous 1533 00:49:19.670 --> 00:49:21.649 people here, and 1534 00:49:21.650 --> 00:49:23.269 we're going to stop teaching 1535 00:49:23.270 --> 00:49:25.219 Literature of the Caribbean. 1536 00:49:25.220 --> 00:49:27.079 We're going to stop teaching 1537 00:49:27.080 --> 00:49:29.539 the effect of Louis L'Amour novels 1538 00:49:29.540 --> 00:49:30.889 on the cinema. 1539 00:49:30.890 --> 00:49:33.139 We're going to stop doing those 1540 00:49:33.140 --> 00:49:34.879 kinds of things. 1541 00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:36.319 And we're going to say, "You guys 1542 00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:38.179 are going to teach Shakespeare, and 1543 00:49:38.180 --> 00:49:39.919 you're going to teach maybe even 1544 00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:41.359 Chaucer. We'll have to think about 1545 00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:43.189 that. And here are 1546 00:49:43.190 --> 00:49:45.919 the great names and the great eras. 1547 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:48.289 The novels since 1945 1548 00:49:48.290 --> 00:49:50.359 that you can teach, 1549 00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:52.339 but we have very few of you. 1550 00:49:52.340 --> 00:49:54.259 So that's what we're going to do." 1551 00:49:54.260 --> 00:49:56.059 And to teach more, what are we going 1552 00:49:56.060 --> 00:49:57.920 to do? We're going to go hire people 1553 00:49:58.940 --> 00:50:00.289 and tell them, "You can teach in the 1554 00:50:00.290 --> 00:50:01.519 Department of Humanities for three 1555 00:50:01.520 --> 00:50:03.050 years or five years. 1556 00:50:04.250 --> 00:50:06.109 And your salary is not going to 1557 00:50:06.110 --> 00:50:07.069 go up hugely. 1558 00:50:07.070 --> 00:50:09.319 We'll pay you decently but 1559 00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:10.399 not wonderfully. 1560 00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:11.599 But don't think you're going to wind 1561 00:50:11.600 --> 00:50:13.909 up with six-figure salaries. 1562 00:50:13.910 --> 00:50:14.959 And at the end of three or five 1563 00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:16.489 years, if you've done a good job and 1564 00:50:16.490 --> 00:50:17.839 we still need your course, we'll 1565 00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:19.069 hold on to you. 1566 00:50:19.070 --> 00:50:21.049 But we have no commitment to you. 1567 00:50:21.050 --> 00:50:23.299 So if we need more education, 1568 00:50:23.300 --> 00:50:25.159 we can do it for a very low 1569 00:50:25.160 --> 00:50:27.079 rate without the benefits, 1570 00:50:27.080 --> 00:50:29.179 etc.." I think that's 1571 00:50:29.180 --> 00:50:30.619 my dire prediction for where we're 1572 00:50:30.620 --> 00:50:31.620 going. 1573 00:50:32.510 --> 00:50:34.070 Light at the end of the tunnel. 1574 00:50:35.630 --> 00:50:37.579 I mean, when I wrote this 1575 00:50:37.580 --> 00:50:39.469 article, it kept on increasing in 1576 00:50:39.470 --> 00:50:41.029 length because they kept on asking 1577 00:50:41.030 --> 00:50:42.079 me to make it longer. 1578 00:50:42.080 --> 00:50:43.279 It wasn't as long as the other 1579 00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:44.280 articles. 1580 00:50:46.300 --> 00:50:47.979 So I finally got it to be as long as 1581 00:50:47.980 --> 00:50:50.049 the other articles, and it ended 1582 00:50:50.050 --> 00:50:51.189 with this dire prediction. 1583 00:50:51.190 --> 00:50:53.679 And they wrote and said, "Oh dear, 1584 00:50:53.680 --> 00:50:54.819 we like this very much." 1585 00:50:54.820 --> 00:50:55.869 Can you give us something positive? 1586 00:50:55.870 --> 00:50:56.949 Can you give us something? 1587 00:50:56.950 --> 00:50:58.389 Could you end nicer? 1588 00:50:58.390 --> 00:51:00.849 Can you write a few more pages? 1589 00:51:00.850 --> 00:51:02.049 Maybe we can too. 1590 00:51:02.050 --> 00:51:03.879 When I sat down to think about 1591 00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:05.529 what is the light at the end of that 1592 00:51:05.530 --> 00:51:06.530 tunnel? 1593 00:51:08.050 --> 00:51:09.050 I don't know. 1594 00:51:10.390 --> 00:51:12.339 Maybe it's--I fear 1595 00:51:12.340 --> 00:51:14.169 that it might just be 1596 00:51:14.170 --> 00:51:16.149 egocentric, but I hope 1597 00:51:16.150 --> 00:51:17.649 not. I think it's the other way 1598 00:51:17.650 --> 00:51:18.650 around. 1599 00:51:19.120 --> 00:51:21.219 When Ezra Pound was 1600 00:51:21.220 --> 00:51:23.109 criticized for printing an 1601 00:51:23.110 --> 00:51:24.110 anthology 1602 00:51:26.350 --> 00:51:29.319 of poets we should know, 1603 00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:31.179 he was criticized for choosing 1604 00:51:31.180 --> 00:51:33.099 poets that 1605 00:51:33.100 --> 00:51:35.230 he had translated himself. 1606 00:51:36.670 --> 00:51:38.319 And that's why he was in favor of 1607 00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:39.489 these people. 1608 00:51:39.490 --> 00:51:41.589 And his response was, "No, 1609 00:51:41.590 --> 00:51:43.459 no. I was in favor of these people. 1610 00:51:43.460 --> 00:51:45.279 And that's why I translated them." 1611 00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:47.139 So I think that's where this 1612 00:51:47.140 --> 00:51:48.140 answer comes from. 1613 00:51:49.300 --> 00:51:51.489 I think what we need to do as 1614 00:51:51.490 --> 00:51:52.540 an English department 1615 00:51:54.160 --> 00:51:56.229 is return to a focus 1616 00:51:56.230 --> 00:51:57.399 on the text. 1617 00:51:57.400 --> 00:51:58.989 That's really what we can be very 1618 00:51:58.990 --> 00:52:00.159 good at. 1619 00:52:00.160 --> 00:52:02.829 I think we've had 1620 00:52:02.830 --> 00:52:04.629 a lot of good time and done a lot of 1621 00:52:04.630 --> 00:52:06.819 good work in focusing on 1622 00:52:06.820 --> 00:52:08.969 other kinds of ethical concerns. 1623 00:52:08.970 --> 00:52:10.149 It's basically what we've been 1624 00:52:10.150 --> 00:52:12.099 doing. And I think that 1625 00:52:12.100 --> 00:52:13.989 a lot of advancement, we get 1626 00:52:13.990 --> 00:52:16.569 a lot of young people who care about 1627 00:52:16.570 --> 00:52:18.729 things we like to care--in 1628 00:52:18.730 --> 00:52:20.079 academia--with things we'd like them 1629 00:52:20.080 --> 00:52:21.969 to care about because of our 1630 00:52:21.970 --> 00:52:23.289 teaching of them. And we've had a 1631 00:52:23.290 --> 00:52:25.419 lot of fun writing stuff ourselves. 1632 00:52:25.420 --> 00:52:27.699 We have fun writing about that. 1633 00:52:27.700 --> 00:52:29.829 But if you say, "Okay, English 1634 00:52:29.830 --> 00:52:31.149 department, you're up against the 1635 00:52:31.150 --> 00:52:32.769 wall. I'm about to have a firing 1636 00:52:32.770 --> 00:52:34.809 squad eliminate you 1637 00:52:34.810 --> 00:52:35.829 completely. 1638 00:52:37.300 --> 00:52:39.159 What could you say to save your 1639 00:52:39.160 --> 00:52:40.989 life as an English 1640 00:52:40.990 --> 00:52:42.879 department?" I would say I am 1641 00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:44.979 fascinated by words 1642 00:52:44.980 --> 00:52:45.980 and texts. 1643 00:52:47.050 --> 00:52:49.029 I will go back to 1644 00:52:49.030 --> 00:52:51.099 looking hard at texts and find how 1645 00:52:51.100 --> 00:52:52.100 they can have meaning, 1646 00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:54.939 how many different ways they can 1647 00:52:54.940 --> 00:52:55.940 have meaning. 1648 00:52:56.560 --> 00:52:57.958 And for writing teachers, 1649 00:52:59.260 --> 00:53:00.260 very 1650 00:53:01.240 --> 00:53:02.859 few places in this country do 1651 00:53:02.860 --> 00:53:05.589 anything like reader expectations. 1652 00:53:05.590 --> 00:53:07.419 What we are doing now is 1653 00:53:07.420 --> 00:53:09.106 not different from what we've been 1654 00:53:09.107 --> 00:53:11.079 doing for 250 1655 00:53:11.080 --> 00:53:12.669 years, except we have added to it 1656 00:53:12.670 --> 00:53:14.499 some of what the literary folk 1657 00:53:14.500 --> 00:53:16.359 do. And we have them write 1658 00:53:16.360 --> 00:53:18.639 essays on misogyny 1659 00:53:18.640 --> 00:53:19.640 or whatever else. 1660 00:53:20.890 --> 00:53:22.809 And then, we pretend to talk 1661 00:53:22.810 --> 00:53:24.549 about what they've written. 1662 00:53:24.550 --> 00:53:26.589 But places teach only 1663 00:53:26.590 --> 00:53:27.489 argument. 1664 00:53:27.490 --> 00:53:28.809 They teach anything about the 1665 00:53:28.810 --> 00:53:29.889 English sentence or the English 1666 00:53:29.890 --> 00:53:30.789 paragraph. 1667 00:53:30.790 --> 00:53:32.649 This is widespread at Duke. 1668 00:53:32.650 --> 00:53:34.569 Literally, nothing about 1669 00:53:34.570 --> 00:53:36.009 the sentence of the paragraph is 1670 00:53:36.010 --> 00:53:37.239 taught in writing courses. 1671 00:53:37.240 --> 00:53:38.589 I think for writing courses, we 1672 00:53:38.590 --> 00:53:40.419 again, same thing, have to 1673 00:53:40.420 --> 00:53:42.309 return to text 1674 00:53:42.310 --> 00:53:43.719 and how it functions. 1675 00:53:43.720 --> 00:53:45.009 Now I know that's what I've been 1676 00:53:45.010 --> 00:53:47.259 working on these many decades, 1677 00:53:47.260 --> 00:53:50.319 but I do think that that is 1678 00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:52.209 what I do with writing works. 1679 00:53:52.210 --> 00:53:54.009 I've got all these lawyers and 1680 00:53:54.010 --> 00:53:55.949 scientists and business people 1681 00:53:55.950 --> 00:53:57.549 and government people and 1682 00:53:57.550 --> 00:53:59.499 academicians who say, "My 1683 00:53:59.500 --> 00:54:01.719 god, nobody explained 1684 00:54:01.720 --> 00:54:03.129 it to me like this. 1685 00:54:03.130 --> 00:54:05.019 Why didn't somebody tell me 30 years 1686 00:54:05.020 --> 00:54:06.999 ago? It's so obvious once you 1687 00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:08.529 see it this way." Now, it's 1688 00:54:08.530 --> 00:54:09.530 wonderful to hear. But it 1689 00:54:10.630 --> 00:54:11.679 actually works. People get their 1690 00:54:11.680 --> 00:54:13.509 grants who didn't get them before. 1691 00:54:13.510 --> 00:54:14.769 Astonishing. 1692 00:54:14.770 --> 00:54:15.639 What have I done? 1693 00:54:15.640 --> 00:54:17.499 I have tended to text and 1694 00:54:17.500 --> 00:54:19.209 how it works and how you can control 1695 00:54:19.210 --> 00:54:21.489 it and your reader and 1696 00:54:21.490 --> 00:54:23.589 get back into your own mind. 1697 00:54:23.590 --> 00:54:25.539 Why isn't that the best thing 1698 00:54:25.540 --> 00:54:27.519 to do in writing courses? 1699 00:54:27.520 --> 00:54:28.959 So the light at the end of the 1700 00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:30.909 tunnel, I think, is to return 1701 00:54:30.910 --> 00:54:32.829 to focus on texts and how texts 1702 00:54:32.830 --> 00:54:33.830 have meaning. 1703 00:54:34.930 --> 00:54:36.279 Thank you so much for joining us. 1704 00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:37.108 My pleasure. 1705 00:54:37.109 --> 00:54:37.659 It's been a pleasure. 1706 00:54:37.660 --> 00:54:38.660 Thank you. 1707 00:54:39.940 --> 00:54:41.199 That's it for this edition of Being 1708 00:54:41.200 --> 00:54:42.009 Human. 1709 00:54:42.010 --> 00:54:43.449 This episode was produced by Matt 1710 00:54:43.450 --> 00:54:45.129 Moret, Undergraduate Media Fellow at 1711 00:54:45.130 --> 00:54:46.869 the University of Pittsburgh. 1712 00:54:46.870 --> 00:54:48.309 Stay tuned next time when my guest 1713 00:54:48.310 --> 00:54:49.839 will be Lawrence Liang, a legal 1714 00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:51.279 scholar and public intellectual 1715 00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:53.259 based in Bangalore, India. 1716 00:54:53.260 --> 00:54:54.260 Thanks for listening.
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