Novels, Nihilism, and Criticism Sandwiches: An Interview with Michael Chabon

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Hello and welcome to the latest

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installment of Being Human, a series

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devoted to exploring the humanities,

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their connections to other

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disciplines, and their value in the

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public world.

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I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of

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the Humanities Center at Pitt.

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My guest today is writer and

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University of Pittsburgh alum

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Michael Chabon.

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Chabon published his first novel,

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The Mysteries of Pittsburgh, in

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1988.

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Since then, he's published an

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incredible array of fiction and

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nonfiction, including novels,

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children's books, screenplays,

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short stories, and essays.

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He's rightly viewed as one of our

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country's most versatile writers and

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has been recognized with some of our

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most prestigious awards, including

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the Pulitzer Prize for The Amazing

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Adventures of Kavalier and Clay in

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2001.

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But perhaps the thing that most sets

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Chabon apart as a writer is the

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passion that his work inspires in

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those who read him.

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Preparing for this interview, I

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repeatedly encountered people who

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expressed uncommon levels of

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devotion to his work.

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Readers who name one of his novels

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as their favorite.

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Writers who he inspired to pursue

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their craft.

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This enthusiastic reaction makes

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sense, as so much of Chabon's work

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is based on his own passion for

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reading and writing.

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Or, to put it in his words, on

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being a fan.

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My interview with Michael was

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conducted publicly in front of more

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than a thousand fans of his work.

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It was a wonderful chance for all of

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us, myself included, to share

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our appreciation of his works with

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him and with each other.

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It was also a demonstration of the

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enduring value of the arts and

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humanities and their importance in

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the public world.

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So, Michael, thank you so much for

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joining us.

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I'm so happy to be here.

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Hello. Hi, everyone.

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Thanks for making it so unbearably

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cool for me. I appreciate that.

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It just brings it all back.

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Is it okay if I start by asking you

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one or two Pittsburgh questions?

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Please.

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All right. So you spend

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when you're-- the most concentrated

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period of time when you were in

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Pittsburgh was when you were in

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college, and that was the early

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eighties.

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Your first two books are set here.

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When you look back

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over your development as

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a writer, where do those years,

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and where does that time spent in

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Pittsburgh fit?

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That time was absolutely

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crucial for me.

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I mean, I think the reason

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that I ended up getting

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essentially two novels out of

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a relatively brief period of time

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that I lived here

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year-round, four

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years, essentially, is because

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I was at that age

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where you are so porous,

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you're so open to so many

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things. And you're at that stage of

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life where you say yes to

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almost everything, sometimes

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unwisely,

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and that

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carried over, for me, into my

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reading life.

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And so,

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both in the books that I was

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introduced to by

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teachers, by professors in

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the English department here, in

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other departments here, and by

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friends of mine who

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were also tended to

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be sort of literary-minded people

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and were into all different kinds of

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authors.

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I was just in this-- it was

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the same with music and with books.

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I bathed in them constantly.

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And because I was so open

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and so mentally,

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in the mode of absorbing

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everything-- I

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am like a sponge,

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more than its weight in water.

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So when I left here, I was

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just stuffed both with

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experiences and with

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influences and with

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a soundtrack as well.

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So

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it lasted the

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good long time. And it was crucial.

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I mean, I think-- but the thing is,

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I mean, everyone's sort of like

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that at that age.

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And if you go to college somewhere,

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that same kind of thing can happen

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to you. I do think there was

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something that I

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fell in love with Pittsburgh the

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first time I saw it when my father

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moved here when I was about

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13. And

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it's totally cliche, but it's that

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thing of coming through the tunnel

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from the airport and just

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dramatic.

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I'd never seen anything like that.

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And they hadn't been here very

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long.

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You know how when you moved to

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Pittsburgh or when you have a

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newcomer to Pittsburgh, you kind of

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quickly try to show them all the

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remarkable things?

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And there are a lot

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of those like

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quirky, unusual, odd things

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from the telephone

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jukeboxes that they used to have

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in bars and the incline.

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As

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a little kid, I kind of just got hit

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right away with this sort of

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whirlwind tour of the of the

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mysteries of Pittsburgh, like all

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these things

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that I had never seen anywhere else.

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And even though I didn't live

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here, every time I came back, it

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seemed to add to a sense that there

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was something special.

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My father and stepmother

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felt there was something special

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about Pittsburgh, and so did I.

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And so, then, when I got here

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for university, I already had the

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sense-- I mean, I was just walking

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this evening down on

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Forbes Avenue and just

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looking at the Cathedral of Learning

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and looking at this building from

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the outside.

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And just I can remember

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looking that statue Bach

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that's sitting out in front of it,

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being as if when I first came here.

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I don't know. It

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was a magical spot for me.

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Eventually, sometime during my

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college years, I climbed up into

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Bach's lap. And

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I think my judgement was

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somewhat impaired at that point.

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I felt a kind

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of love for this place from the

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beginning. And I think if I had gone

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to a different kind of place, it

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wouldn't have been the same.

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Yeah. I mean, it's interesting when

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I think back, those years,

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the early eighties in Pittsburgh are

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really, in terms of

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the numbers of unemployment and

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things like that, that's the low

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point of Pittsburgh's

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post-industrial existence.

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And that's one of the things, I

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think, in Mysteries of Pittsburgh,

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you're able to kind of take the city

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at that moment really and turn it

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into something that seems kind of

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magical and wonderful.

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Well, actually, when I first came

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here in the mid-seventies, that was

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when the mills were closing.

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But also, it meant that

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I did get to see

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something about Pittsburgh.

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Like I can remember the first couple

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of times coming here at night, the

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sky would glow orange

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with this sort of flickering glow.

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It was magical and weird

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and somewhat disturbing too.

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There

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were industrial smells in the air

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that I had just the tail end of

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that Pittsburgh.

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I think Pittsburgh is--

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so much has changed.

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I was talking to a friend of mine,

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who is here tonight, about how

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I was driving up, for example, and I

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looked over, and I saw something,

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and I was really upset because it's

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supposed to be George Aikens.

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And it's supposed to be white

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and green.

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And even though I've seen

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that building where George Aikens

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was, I don't know, so

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many times since it left.

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It still looks wrong

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to me. So, I mean, things have

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changed. But I feel that

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Pittsburghers

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seemed

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always to have enough of a sense

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that this was a special place that

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they've done a better job

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holding on to that than other

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places.

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Well, speaking of Pittsburghers,

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I know one of the Pittsburghers

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that meant a lot to you that you met

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when you were in college was Jay

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Dantry.

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And Jay, he was the former owner of

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Jay's Book Stall, which is a really

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great bookstore, so close to here.

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He passed away earlier this year,

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and you wrote a really moving

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tribute to him in the

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Tribune-Review.

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Could you say a few words about how

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meaningful it was to know him?

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Yeah, I would be happy to.

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Yes. I mean, Jay was,

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if you knew him, he was a presence.

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He did not suffer fools gladly.

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He was like a lot

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of old-school booksellers.

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He knew what was best

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for you to read.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Whether you did or not.

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I can remember he had his

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cash register up in the corner,

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in the front, and up on the

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raised platform so he can see the

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whole store from

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where he stood.

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And if you were reaching for

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a book on one of the tables that he

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didn't approve of, he'd say, "No, no,

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no. You don't want to read that.

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If you think that's the kind of book

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you're interested in, read this one

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instead." So he

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was imperious. He was a little

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intimidating.

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And I

286
00:08:33.830 --> 00:08:35.749
used to go in and beg him for

287
00:08:35.750 --> 00:08:37.579
a job pretty regularly because I was

288
00:08:37.580 --> 00:08:39.558
working at the former

289
00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:41.509
Atlantic Books chain that used

290
00:08:41.510 --> 00:08:44.239
to be here. And it was not a happy

291
00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:46.249
job situation for me

292
00:08:46.250 --> 00:08:48.199
because it didn't seem

293
00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:50.479
like anybody there really enjoyed

294
00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:52.129
books or reading, right?

295
00:08:52.130 --> 00:08:53.130
About

296
00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:57.049
just stacking things into pyramids.

297
00:08:59.060 --> 00:09:01.039
If somebody took this book out

298
00:09:01.040 --> 00:09:02.239
and it messed up the pyramid, you

299
00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:03.240
had to take this one and

300
00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:06.043
move it here and move that one

301
00:09:06.044 --> 00:09:07.129
there. Restore the pyramid. That was like

302
00:09:07.130 --> 00:09:09.109
the sum total of my working

303
00:09:09.110 --> 00:09:10.110
day

304
00:09:12.170 --> 00:09:13.969
and also tidying up the mess in the

305
00:09:13.970 --> 00:09:15.694
pornographic magazine section too.

306
00:09:15.695 --> 00:09:17.179
That was it.

307
00:09:17.180 --> 00:09:18.169
That's all I did.

308
00:09:18.170 --> 00:09:19.309
So I used to go in there all the

309
00:09:19.310 --> 00:09:20.310
time and

310
00:09:21.470 --> 00:09:23.239
ask him to hire me, beg him to hire

311
00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:24.769
me. And even though my dad was one

312
00:09:24.770 --> 00:09:26.929
of his best customers, he still

313
00:09:27.980 --> 00:09:29.839
resisted until

314
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:31.429
just about a year and a half before

315
00:09:31.430 --> 00:09:32.239
I left Pittsburgh.

316
00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:34.159
And then, I went to work for him,

317
00:09:34.160 --> 00:09:36.259
and that was a perfect

318
00:09:36.260 --> 00:09:38.269
bookstore. And they loved

319
00:09:38.270 --> 00:09:39.270
books there. And

320
00:09:40.820 --> 00:09:42.829
I mean, Jay supported me

321
00:09:42.830 --> 00:09:44.749
in my very earliest

322
00:09:44.750 --> 00:09:46.069
efforts to write.

323
00:09:46.070 --> 00:09:48.259
He was encouraging, and

324
00:09:48.260 --> 00:09:50.629
he was so interested in theater.

325
00:09:50.630 --> 00:09:52.729
I grew much more conversant

326
00:09:52.730 --> 00:09:54.349
with what was going on on Broadway

327
00:09:54.350 --> 00:09:55.579
than I ever had been in my life

328
00:09:55.580 --> 00:09:56.419
through him.

329
00:09:56.420 --> 00:09:58.249
He was always playing Broadway

330
00:09:58.250 --> 00:09:59.586
soundtracks and scores over

331
00:10:00.860 --> 00:10:01.699
the P.A.

332
00:10:01.700 --> 00:10:02.809
system.

333
00:10:02.810 --> 00:10:04.472
And I think even most of all,

334
00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:08.509
Jay and Harry Schwab

335
00:10:08.510 --> 00:10:10.759
were together, for I don't know

336
00:10:10.760 --> 00:10:12.499
how long, decades and decades and

337
00:10:12.500 --> 00:10:13.669
decades.

338
00:10:13.670 --> 00:10:15.529
By the time Jay died, I had known

339
00:10:15.530 --> 00:10:16.819
other gay couples.

340
00:10:16.820 --> 00:10:18.829
I had met with friends of my

341
00:10:18.830 --> 00:10:19.729
mom's.

342
00:10:19.730 --> 00:10:22.009
Power couples. But I had never seen

343
00:10:22.010 --> 00:10:23.719
a gay marriage before.

344
00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:25.399
Even though they weren't married,

345
00:10:25.400 --> 00:10:27.319
they had already been together for

346
00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:29.059
so long when I met them.

347
00:10:29.060 --> 00:10:30.589
They stayed together for such a long

348
00:10:30.590 --> 00:10:31.639
time after that.

349
00:10:31.640 --> 00:10:33.559
And I

350
00:10:33.560 --> 00:10:34.613
think I say in that piece like the

351
00:10:34.614 --> 00:10:36.499
sight-- I remember if I was there

352
00:10:36.500 --> 00:10:37.999
when the store was closing and Harry

353
00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.000
would come by to pick up Jay.

354
00:10:40.190 --> 00:10:41.929
He pulls up this door, and I would

355
00:10:41.930 --> 00:10:42.889
start walking that way.

356
00:10:42.890 --> 00:10:44.269
And the two of them would go off

357
00:10:44.270 --> 00:10:46.459
towards the King Edward Apartments

358
00:10:46.460 --> 00:10:47.460
where they lived.

359
00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:49.429
And I just remember like just the

360
00:10:49.430 --> 00:10:50.430
same, these two sort

361
00:10:51.380 --> 00:10:53.419
of roly-poly cute

362
00:10:53.420 --> 00:10:55.849
little guys, like walking away.

363
00:10:55.850 --> 00:10:56.959
One with an umbrella.

364
00:10:56.960 --> 00:10:58.909
And just it

365
00:10:58.910 --> 00:11:01.189
was a very moving, powerful

366
00:11:01.190 --> 00:11:02.239
thing to me just to see that.

367
00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:03.603
We're talking in the early 1980s.

368
00:11:03.604 --> 00:11:05.779
It was common

369
00:11:05.780 --> 00:11:06.780
enough.

370
00:11:07.490 --> 00:11:08.490
And in

371
00:11:09.650 --> 00:11:10.650
hindsight, that was

372
00:11:11.660 --> 00:11:13.969
a really important thing for me.

373
00:11:13.970 --> 00:11:15.259
Yeah, you're right about the courage

374
00:11:15.260 --> 00:11:17.869
that it took for him to be openly

375
00:11:17.870 --> 00:11:19.459
gay and openly happy at the same

376
00:11:19.460 --> 00:11:21.172
time. That's really moving.

377
00:11:21.173 --> 00:11:23.299
And intimidating.

378
00:11:23.300 --> 00:11:24.300
Yeah. Yeah.

379
00:11:25.970 --> 00:11:27.649
Well, I want to ask you about

380
00:11:27.650 --> 00:11:29.539
Moonglow, too, and let me

381
00:11:29.540 --> 00:11:31.129
just start by saying that I think

382
00:11:31.130 --> 00:11:32.749
Moonglow is really wonderful.

383
00:11:32.750 --> 00:11:34.279
I think it deserves all of the

384
00:11:34.280 --> 00:11:35.299
positive attention that it's

385
00:11:35.300 --> 00:11:36.259
getting.

386
00:11:36.260 --> 00:11:38.209
It's a really fantastic novel.

387
00:11:38.210 --> 00:11:39.454
Congratulations, first of all.

388
00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:44.299
The Book Jacket describes

389
00:11:44.300 --> 00:11:46.129
Moonglow as "A

390
00:11:46.130 --> 00:11:47.719
lie that tells the truth.

391
00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:49.669
A work of fictional nonfiction.

392
00:11:49.670 --> 00:11:52.099
An autobiography wrapped in a novel

393
00:11:52.100 --> 00:11:53.132
disguised as a memoir."

394
00:11:55.490 --> 00:11:57.499
That's kind of Book Jacket language.

395
00:11:57.500 --> 00:11:58.684
But could you say a little bit about

396
00:11:59.990 --> 00:12:02.059
what that language describes and how

397
00:12:02.060 --> 00:12:03.319
the book works, and what that's

398
00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:04.039
talking about?

399
00:12:04.040 --> 00:12:06.019
Well, of all those

400
00:12:06.020 --> 00:12:07.489
descriptions, I really do think it

401
00:12:07.490 --> 00:12:09.319
is fair

402
00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:11.449
to say it's an autobiography.

403
00:12:11.450 --> 00:12:12.649
But is it wrapped in a novel

404
00:12:12.650 --> 00:12:13.609
disguised as a memoir?

405
00:12:13.610 --> 00:12:14.610
Because

406
00:12:15.950 --> 00:12:17.839
the outermost layer of that is

407
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:20.179
memoir. And it pretends

408
00:12:20.180 --> 00:12:21.559
to be a memoir. It reads like a

409
00:12:21.560 --> 00:12:22.560
memoir.

410
00:12:23.210 --> 00:12:25.369
The narrator is a first-person

411
00:12:25.370 --> 00:12:26.449
narrator.

412
00:12:26.450 --> 00:12:28.309
Anything he says about himself

413
00:12:29.900 --> 00:12:31.579
in terms of his own biography

414
00:12:31.580 --> 00:12:33.559
matches mine going

415
00:12:33.560 --> 00:12:35.389
to UC Irvine.

416
00:12:35.390 --> 00:12:37.219
Even the name of a professor

417
00:12:37.220 --> 00:12:38.749
that I had at UC Irvine, the

418
00:12:38.750 --> 00:12:40.549
narrator had at UC Irvine.

419
00:12:40.550 --> 00:12:42.739
But it's not the narrator's

420
00:12:42.740 --> 00:12:44.989
memoir. It's his grandfather's

421
00:12:44.990 --> 00:12:45.990
memoir. The

422
00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:49.249
grandson is trying

423
00:12:49.250 --> 00:12:51.259
to-- it's really just listening as

424
00:12:51.260 --> 00:12:52.999
his grandfather, who is in terminal

425
00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.199
stages of bone cancer and

426
00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:56.848
who is on palliative care now.

427
00:12:56.849 --> 00:12:59.149
And he's on heavy painkillers

428
00:12:59.150 --> 00:13:00.597
and on Dilaudid.

429
00:13:00.598 --> 00:13:02.216
And under the influence of Dilaudid,

430
00:13:02.217 --> 00:13:04.489
this very taciturn

431
00:13:04.490 --> 00:13:06.469
man, who's

432
00:13:06.470 --> 00:13:07.699
classic.

433
00:13:07.700 --> 00:13:09.679
It's a well-known

434
00:13:09.680 --> 00:13:11.179
type of Jewish man,

435
00:13:12.740 --> 00:13:14.909
illustrated by a great

436
00:13:14.910 --> 00:13:16.849
old joke about the little boy

437
00:13:16.850 --> 00:13:18.469
who comes home from Hebrew school.

438
00:13:18.470 --> 00:13:20.389
And he

439
00:13:20.390 --> 00:13:21.390
says, "Mommy, Mommy,

440
00:13:22.580 --> 00:13:24.409
I got cast in the class

441
00:13:24.410 --> 00:13:25.969
play." And she goes, "Oh, that's

442
00:13:25.970 --> 00:13:27.259
wonderful, honey. What is the play?"

443
00:13:27.260 --> 00:13:29.509
He says, "It's

444
00:13:29.510 --> 00:13:30.589
about a Jewish family.

445
00:13:30.590 --> 00:13:32.569
And I'm playing the dad."

446
00:13:32.570 --> 00:13:34.399
And mom says, "You

447
00:13:34.400 --> 00:13:36.289
march right back there and make them

448
00:13:36.290 --> 00:13:37.519
give you a speaking part."

449
00:13:44.550 --> 00:13:46.439
And the grandfather in

450
00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:48.329
this book is that style.

451
00:13:48.330 --> 00:13:50.429
He's a tough

452
00:13:50.430 --> 00:13:52.409
guy and

453
00:13:52.410 --> 00:13:54.329
not, like a "he doesn't

454
00:13:54.330 --> 00:13:55.889
come off as a tough guy." He

455
00:13:55.890 --> 00:13:57.119
actually is tough.

456
00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:58.979
He endures a lot of pain

457
00:13:58.980 --> 00:13:59.791
and suffering in his life.

458
00:13:59.792 --> 00:14:01.679
He's very stoically.

459
00:14:02.790 --> 00:14:04.679
He doesn't

460
00:14:04.680 --> 00:14:06.179
share his feelings.

461
00:14:06.180 --> 00:14:08.129
He doesn't believe in sharing

462
00:14:08.130 --> 00:14:09.299
one's feelings.

463
00:14:09.300 --> 00:14:10.260
He thinks it's a waste of time.

464
00:14:10.261 --> 00:14:12.299
He thinks talking

465
00:14:12.300 --> 00:14:14.309
is kind of a waste of time, mostly

466
00:14:14.310 --> 00:14:15.241
because people don't listen.

467
00:14:15.242 --> 00:14:16.242
So

468
00:14:17.370 --> 00:14:18.370
why bother?

469
00:14:19.800 --> 00:14:21.719
Under these painkillers, his tongue

470
00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:23.699
is loosened, and his memories

471
00:14:23.700 --> 00:14:24.659
are jarred.

472
00:14:24.660 --> 00:14:25.860
And he starts to,

473
00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:30.059
in a somewhat associative way,

474
00:14:30.060 --> 00:14:31.060
tell his

475
00:14:31.920 --> 00:14:33.779
life story to his grandson.

476
00:14:33.780 --> 00:14:35.609
And because his

477
00:14:35.610 --> 00:14:37.559
memory-- because

478
00:14:37.560 --> 00:14:38.849
of the way memory works, because

479
00:14:38.850 --> 00:14:40.829
he's under the influence of these

480
00:14:40.830 --> 00:14:41.830
drugs, the

481
00:14:42.900 --> 00:14:44.939
story sort of flows

482
00:14:44.940 --> 00:14:46.859
in and out of about five or six

483
00:14:46.860 --> 00:14:49.049
different parts of his life

484
00:14:49.050 --> 00:14:51.449
that kind of move forward,

485
00:14:51.450 --> 00:14:52.724
interweaving with each other.

486
00:14:52.725 --> 00:14:54.569
So that from one

487
00:14:54.570 --> 00:14:56.459
chapter to the next, you might go

488
00:14:56.460 --> 00:14:57.968
from late 80s

489
00:14:59.370 --> 00:15:00.839
in a retirement community in

490
00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:02.819
Florida, where he's living before he

491
00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:04.608
is on his last illness, to an

492
00:15:09.030 --> 00:15:10.758
officer's training school outside

493
00:15:12.180 --> 00:15:15.369
of D.C. in 1942.

494
00:15:15.370 --> 00:15:17.619
And it has that

495
00:15:17.620 --> 00:15:19.569
loose kind of structure of memory.

496
00:15:19.570 --> 00:15:21.399
So it's this grandson's

497
00:15:21.400 --> 00:15:22.959
memoir of his grandfather, but it's

498
00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:24.409
not my grandfather at all.

499
00:15:24.410 --> 00:15:26.199
And in fact, my grandfather, for

500
00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:28.149
example, was a very talkative

501
00:15:28.150 --> 00:15:30.309
man. He has a different style

502
00:15:30.310 --> 00:15:31.389
than he was.

503
00:15:31.390 --> 00:15:33.279
He loved puns and wordplay, and

504
00:15:33.280 --> 00:15:34.569
he was a storyteller.

505
00:15:34.570 --> 00:15:36.609
And I heard lots of stories,

506
00:15:36.610 --> 00:15:38.679
unlike the narrator in Moonglow.

507
00:15:38.680 --> 00:15:40.059
I heard a lot of stories from my

508
00:15:40.060 --> 00:15:42.399
grandfather over the years about his

509
00:15:42.400 --> 00:15:44.229
childhood and my mom's childhood,

510
00:15:44.230 --> 00:15:45.249
and so forth.

511
00:15:45.250 --> 00:15:47.289
But when my grandfather was dying,

512
00:15:47.290 --> 00:15:48.909
and he was on painkillers, and he

513
00:15:48.910 --> 00:15:50.949
was narrating things to me.

514
00:15:50.950 --> 00:15:52.809
His memory seemed to be jarring,

515
00:15:52.810 --> 00:15:54.159
and he was telling me things I'd

516
00:15:54.160 --> 00:15:55.929
never heard before.

517
00:15:55.930 --> 00:15:57.789
And there seemed to be so

518
00:15:57.790 --> 00:15:59.649
much in there, even this

519
00:15:59.650 --> 00:16:01.519
man who did talk a lot,

520
00:16:01.520 --> 00:16:03.369
had never shared with me.

521
00:16:03.370 --> 00:16:04.779
I never forgot that experience

522
00:16:05.910 --> 00:16:07.899
of just feeling like, what else is

523
00:16:07.900 --> 00:16:10.239
in there that I haven't heard?

524
00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:11.739
And of course, I mean, I knew the

525
00:16:11.740 --> 00:16:13.119
answer to that because the things he

526
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:14.120
was telling me were--

527
00:16:14.980 --> 00:16:16.449
there is nothing that

528
00:16:16.450 --> 00:16:17.739
earth-shattering or even that

529
00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:18.789
personal, really.

530
00:16:18.790 --> 00:16:21.009
But what I didn't know about him,

531
00:16:21.010 --> 00:16:22.359
which is also what I didn't know

532
00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:24.219
about my grandmother,

533
00:16:24.220 --> 00:16:25.846
his wife, or my other grandparents,

534
00:16:25.847 --> 00:16:27.669
is anything about them

535
00:16:27.670 --> 00:16:29.709
really. You don't tend

536
00:16:29.710 --> 00:16:31.569
to know your grandparents that

537
00:16:31.570 --> 00:16:33.579
way. I mean, it would almost

538
00:16:33.580 --> 00:16:34.959
seem inappropriate if you had that

539
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:35.889
kind of access.

540
00:16:35.890 --> 00:16:37.749
I mean, some parents are very free

541
00:16:37.750 --> 00:16:39.879
in sharing their personal

542
00:16:39.880 --> 00:16:41.289
experiences, their doubts, their

543
00:16:41.290 --> 00:16:42.519
reservations, and all of that with

544
00:16:42.520 --> 00:16:43.989
their children. Some are not.

545
00:16:43.990 --> 00:16:45.579
But with grandparents, it's almost

546
00:16:45.580 --> 00:16:46.569
unheard of.

547
00:16:46.570 --> 00:16:48.609
And so sadly, though, as a result

548
00:16:48.610 --> 00:16:49.629
of that, your grandparents--

549
00:16:50.830 --> 00:16:52.449
and I love them, I love my

550
00:16:52.450 --> 00:16:53.499
grandfather, in particular.

551
00:16:53.500 --> 00:16:54.879
We were very close, but he never

552
00:16:54.880 --> 00:16:55.880
really-- I

553
00:16:57.220 --> 00:16:58.929
didn't really know him. There was so

554
00:16:58.930 --> 00:17:01.149
much about him that he couldn't

555
00:17:01.150 --> 00:17:03.219
or wouldn't ever share.

556
00:17:03.220 --> 00:17:05.289
And this book is,

557
00:17:05.290 --> 00:17:07.118
in part, motivated by that

558
00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:08.469
because I didn't know anything.

559
00:17:08.470 --> 00:17:10.029
I sort of make everything up.

560
00:17:11.230 --> 00:17:13.059
So the memoir is a

561
00:17:13.060 --> 00:17:14.889
fiction, and that's how

562
00:17:14.890 --> 00:17:16.809
it's a novel disguised as

563
00:17:16.810 --> 00:17:18.068
a memoir because it's really a

564
00:17:18.069 --> 00:17:19.069
novel. It's

565
00:17:20.140 --> 00:17:22.749
no more or less

566
00:17:22.750 --> 00:17:24.909
invented, no more or less factual

567
00:17:24.910 --> 00:17:26.727
than any of my other books, really.

568
00:17:26.728 --> 00:17:28.689
I'm always drawing on my own

569
00:17:28.690 --> 00:17:30.369
life. I'm always drawing on my own

570
00:17:30.370 --> 00:17:31.999
experience and transforming it and

571
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:33.000
disguising it.

572
00:17:33.940 --> 00:17:35.289
But then, there's the autobiography

573
00:17:35.290 --> 00:17:36.669
part, and that was the part that

574
00:17:36.670 --> 00:17:38.199
kind of surprised me because I knew

575
00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:39.177
I was writing a fake memoir.

576
00:17:39.178 --> 00:17:41.049
I wanted the reader

577
00:17:42.130 --> 00:17:45.099
to feel like he or she was reading

578
00:17:45.100 --> 00:17:46.239
my memoirs.

579
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:47.589
But I also didn't want to trick

580
00:17:47.590 --> 00:17:49.179
anyone. So it's labeled a novel

581
00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:50.649
because it is one.

582
00:17:50.650 --> 00:17:52.569
But what

583
00:17:52.570 --> 00:17:54.849
I didn't really know until

584
00:17:54.850 --> 00:17:56.709
I was done writing, it was that

585
00:17:56.710 --> 00:17:58.629
the grandfather is, in

586
00:17:58.630 --> 00:17:59.893
some strange way, kind of a

587
00:17:59.894 --> 00:18:01.869
self-portrait. And the marriage

588
00:18:01.870 --> 00:18:04.629
in the book is a kind of

589
00:18:04.630 --> 00:18:06.609
novelized, distorted

590
00:18:06.610 --> 00:18:08.259
portrait of my marriage in some

591
00:18:08.260 --> 00:18:10.299
ways. And the struggles

592
00:18:10.300 --> 00:18:12.579
of both of the grandparents

593
00:18:12.580 --> 00:18:14.439
in the novel reflect

594
00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:15.849
and mirror, in a very heavily

595
00:18:15.850 --> 00:18:17.169
fictionalized form - obviously,

596
00:18:17.170 --> 00:18:19.959
because I'm not a 74-year-old

597
00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:20.960
man in 1989 -

598
00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:23.829
with my own experience

599
00:18:23.830 --> 00:18:25.389
and my own life in ways that I

600
00:18:25.390 --> 00:18:27.249
didn't know I was really doing until

601
00:18:27.250 --> 00:18:29.199
I was almost done with the book.

602
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:31.179
So that is why it's an

603
00:18:31.180 --> 00:18:33.429
autobiography wrapped in

604
00:18:33.430 --> 00:18:34.929
a novel disguise as a memoir.

605
00:18:34.930 --> 00:18:36.759
The grandfather a lot-- some of what

606
00:18:36.760 --> 00:18:37.929
we see-- a lot of what we see were

607
00:18:37.930 --> 00:18:39.478
his experiences during World War II.

608
00:18:40.570 --> 00:18:41.529
And I wonder, would you be willing

609
00:18:41.530 --> 00:18:43.539
to read a passage from the novel?

610
00:18:45.910 --> 00:18:48.219
Sure. I should say the grandfather

611
00:18:48.220 --> 00:18:49.770
is recruited because he

612
00:18:51.070 --> 00:18:53.259
has unusual gifts both for violence

613
00:18:53.260 --> 00:18:54.840
and for ingenuity, and he's

614
00:18:56.230 --> 00:18:57.527
very flexible when the situation

615
00:18:57.528 --> 00:18:58.779
takes a turn.

616
00:18:58.780 --> 00:18:59.709
He's ready for it.

617
00:18:59.710 --> 00:19:00.710
He's

618
00:19:03.760 --> 00:19:04.760
brave,

619
00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:06.939
even foolhardy.

620
00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:09.009
And all these traits are spotted.

621
00:19:09.010 --> 00:19:11.469
And he's recruited by the OSS,

622
00:19:11.470 --> 00:19:13.690
the predecessor of the CIA,

623
00:19:14.830 --> 00:19:17.049
to work as part of this project

624
00:19:17.050 --> 00:19:18.789
that came to be known as Operation

625
00:19:18.790 --> 00:19:20.349
Paperclip.

626
00:19:20.350 --> 00:19:22.209
It was not combat

627
00:19:22.210 --> 00:19:24.069
actually during the war itself, but

628
00:19:24.070 --> 00:19:25.929
the idea was the

629
00:19:25.930 --> 00:19:28.359
war was clearly coming to an end,

630
00:19:28.360 --> 00:19:29.360
and

631
00:19:30.910 --> 00:19:32.409
it was very well known.

632
00:19:32.410 --> 00:19:34.329
It was painfully well known that in

633
00:19:34.330 --> 00:19:36.999
most respects, German technology

634
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:38.859
and German science and engineering

635
00:19:38.860 --> 00:19:41.079
were way ahead of

636
00:19:41.080 --> 00:19:42.969
anybody else's, including the United

637
00:19:42.970 --> 00:19:45.579
States, in jet engines,

638
00:19:45.580 --> 00:19:47.889
in bacterial warfare,

639
00:19:47.890 --> 00:19:50.349
chemical warfare, and also in

640
00:19:50.350 --> 00:19:52.419
more peacetime-oriented kinds of

641
00:19:52.420 --> 00:19:54.009
plastics and so on that were being

642
00:19:54.010 --> 00:19:56.079
used in the war effort by Germany.

643
00:19:56.080 --> 00:19:57.080
But

644
00:19:58.000 --> 00:19:59.559
we had peacetime applications as

645
00:19:59.560 --> 00:20:01.569
well. And there is not simply

646
00:20:01.570 --> 00:20:03.909
a desire to kind of get that stuff

647
00:20:03.910 --> 00:20:06.069
for ourselves

648
00:20:06.070 --> 00:20:08.109
and jumpstart our

649
00:20:08.110 --> 00:20:09.969
somewhat lagging

650
00:20:09.970 --> 00:20:11.469
technology in the United States.

651
00:20:11.470 --> 00:20:13.479
But also maybe even more

652
00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:15.099
urgently, at least this is how it

653
00:20:15.100 --> 00:20:16.799
was sold, to prevent the Soviet

654
00:20:16.800 --> 00:20:17.640
Union from getting it.

655
00:20:17.641 --> 00:20:19.169
Since the Soviet Union was coming

656
00:20:19.170 --> 00:20:20.609
this way, and the United States is

657
00:20:20.610 --> 00:20:21.449
coming this way.

658
00:20:21.450 --> 00:20:22.919
They were going to meet, and it was

659
00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.109
a race, really, to see who could get

660
00:20:25.110 --> 00:20:25.949
what first.

661
00:20:25.950 --> 00:20:27.929
And then, one of the most biggest

662
00:20:27.930 --> 00:20:29.789
prizes of all was

663
00:20:30.840 --> 00:20:33.179
the V-2 rocket program,

664
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:35.279
and it was under the directorship of

665
00:20:35.280 --> 00:20:36.629
Wernher von Braun.

666
00:20:36.630 --> 00:20:38.579
And as I'm sure many people

667
00:20:38.580 --> 00:20:40.589
know, ultimately, Wernher von

668
00:20:40.590 --> 00:20:42.119
Braun was captured by the United

669
00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:44.149
States. He was brought

670
00:20:44.150 --> 00:20:45.809
to the United States.

671
00:20:45.810 --> 00:20:47.729
He was completely rehabilitated

672
00:20:47.730 --> 00:20:49.799
top to bottom. All of his

673
00:20:49.800 --> 00:20:52.319
war crimes were not discussed

674
00:20:52.320 --> 00:20:53.969
and officially forgotten.

675
00:20:53.970 --> 00:20:54.970
And he became

676
00:20:56.330 --> 00:20:58.889
the mind behind

677
00:20:58.890 --> 00:21:00.959
a number of rocket programs, and the

678
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:02.639
most prominent among them the Apollo

679
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:03.509
program.

680
00:21:03.510 --> 00:21:05.189
And there's absolutely no doubt

681
00:21:05.190 --> 00:21:07.199
without Wernher von Braun there's

682
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:09.029
no moon landing.

683
00:21:09.030 --> 00:21:10.679
There's no Neil Armstrong.

684
00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:12.629
He made that happen.

685
00:21:12.630 --> 00:21:14.909
He had the organizational capacity

686
00:21:14.910 --> 00:21:16.949
and the technical understanding

687
00:21:16.950 --> 00:21:18.689
to be able to spearhead something

688
00:21:18.690 --> 00:21:20.099
like that. And he did.

689
00:21:20.100 --> 00:21:22.049
And that was his lifelong dream.

690
00:21:22.050 --> 00:21:24.209
It's also the grandfather's

691
00:21:24.210 --> 00:21:26.129
lifelong dream to go to the moon.

692
00:21:26.130 --> 00:21:28.109
And before

693
00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:31.409
the grandfather actually kind of

694
00:21:31.410 --> 00:21:32.624
fight-- he wants to capture Wernher

695
00:21:32.625 --> 00:21:33.625
von Braun.

696
00:21:34.260 --> 00:21:36.299
He wants to see a V-2 rocket because

697
00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:38.129
he's obsessed with rockets and with

698
00:21:38.130 --> 00:21:39.179
going to the moon.

699
00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:41.189
And before he knows very much about

700
00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:42.960
von Braun, he admires him.

701
00:21:44.490 --> 00:21:45.630
And he does become

702
00:21:46.860 --> 00:21:47.860
greatly disillusioned

703
00:21:48.840 --> 00:21:50.819
as he finds more and more about how

704
00:21:50.820 --> 00:21:52.152
the V-2 rockets were manufactured,

705
00:21:52.153 --> 00:21:54.119
which is by slave

706
00:21:54.120 --> 00:21:56.099
labor, by concentration camp

707
00:21:56.100 --> 00:21:57.929
labor. And it was really

708
00:21:57.930 --> 00:21:58.769
a horror show.

709
00:21:58.770 --> 00:22:00.239
Nevertheless, this is before he

710
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.240
finds that out. He

711
00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:03.460
meets

712
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:06.269
a German priest who has

713
00:22:06.270 --> 00:22:07.919
already had decided the war is over,

714
00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:09.779
even though technically it isn't.

715
00:22:09.780 --> 00:22:11.489
And it turns out to be an amateur

716
00:22:11.490 --> 00:22:13.679
astronomer, and they talk about

717
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:15.359
the stars. And then, the priest

718
00:22:15.360 --> 00:22:17.909
decides to let him in on a secret.

719
00:22:17.910 --> 00:22:20.819
And he takes them into a clearing

720
00:22:20.820 --> 00:22:21.820
nearby.

721
00:22:26.620 --> 00:22:27.849
"Of course, my grandfather knew

722
00:22:27.850 --> 00:22:29.019
that, from the point of view of

723
00:22:29.020 --> 00:22:30.909
German command, of

724
00:22:30.910 --> 00:22:32.979
Allied command, of Hermann

725
00:22:32.980 --> 00:22:35.439
Goering and General Eisenhower and

726
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:37.269
the people at whom it was to

727
00:22:37.270 --> 00:22:39.519
have been launched, the rocket

728
00:22:39.520 --> 00:22:42.399
was still - was only -

729
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:43.400
in the war.

730
00:22:44.290 --> 00:22:46.209
The clearing had been cut by

731
00:22:46.210 --> 00:22:48.069
soldiers, the rocket had

732
00:22:48.070 --> 00:22:50.919
been transported here by soldiers.

733
00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.079
Soldiers would have armed,

734
00:22:53.080 --> 00:22:54.999
primed, aimed, and

735
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:56.000
fired it.

736
00:22:56.620 --> 00:22:58.501
Like its fellows - around three

737
00:22:58.502 --> 00:23:00.689
thousand, between September

738
00:23:00.690 --> 00:23:02.709
1944 and March

739
00:23:02.710 --> 00:23:04.539
1945 - it had

740
00:23:04.540 --> 00:23:06.069
been fitted with a warhead that

741
00:23:06.070 --> 00:23:07.070
contained

742
00:23:08.380 --> 00:23:09.639
two thousand pounds of a highly explosive

743
00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:11.529
form of TNT that would

744
00:23:11.530 --> 00:23:13.119
detonate on impact.

745
00:23:14.900 --> 00:23:17.269
Its manufacture had been ordained

746
00:23:17.270 --> 00:23:18.709
and carried out not to bury

747
00:23:18.710 --> 00:23:20.689
humankind to the doorstep

748
00:23:20.690 --> 00:23:22.549
of the stars but to

749
00:23:22.550 --> 00:23:24.132
atomize and terrorized civilians,

750
00:23:24.133 --> 00:23:26.007
destroy their homes, shatter

751
00:23:27.080 --> 00:23:28.080
their morale.

752
00:23:29.060 --> 00:23:31.549
If some unknown mischance had

753
00:23:31.550 --> 00:23:33.499
not intervened, this rocket would

754
00:23:33.500 --> 00:23:35.569
have joined its fellows in racing

755
00:23:35.570 --> 00:23:37.759
the sound of its own arrival

756
00:23:37.760 --> 00:23:39.022
toward the city of Antwerp, where,

757
00:23:40.820 --> 00:23:41.820
on December 16,

758
00:23:42.770 --> 00:23:44.689
to take the worst example,

759
00:23:44.690 --> 00:23:46.819
a V-2 had fallen on the Rex

760
00:23:46.820 --> 00:23:48.499
Theater in the middle of a showing

761
00:23:48.500 --> 00:23:50.839
of The Plainsman, killing

762
00:23:50.840 --> 00:23:52.819
or injuring nearly a thousand

763
00:23:52.820 --> 00:23:53.820
people.

764
00:23:54.950 --> 00:23:56.899
None of that, however,

765
00:23:56.900 --> 00:23:59.119
could be blamed on the rocket,

766
00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:00.979
my grandfather thought,

767
00:24:00.980 --> 00:24:01.980
or on the man, von Braun,

768
00:24:03.050 --> 00:24:04.050
who had designed it.

769
00:24:05.280 --> 00:24:07.079
The rocket was beautiful.

770
00:24:09.030 --> 00:24:10.389
In conception it had been shaped by

771
00:24:10.390 --> 00:24:12.309
an artist to break a

772
00:24:12.310 --> 00:24:14.529
chain that had bound the human race

773
00:24:14.530 --> 00:24:15.939
ever since we first gained

774
00:24:15.940 --> 00:24:17.949
consciousness of earth's gravity

775
00:24:17.950 --> 00:24:19.809
and all its analogs in

776
00:24:19.810 --> 00:24:21.699
suffering, failure, and

777
00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:22.700
pain.

778
00:24:23.470 --> 00:24:25.179
It was at once a prayer sent

779
00:24:25.180 --> 00:24:27.159
heavenward and the answer

780
00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:28.160
to that prayer: Bear

781
00:24:29.410 --> 00:24:31.419
me away from this awful

782
00:24:31.420 --> 00:24:32.420
place.

783
00:24:33.370 --> 00:24:35.499
To pack the thing with a ton

784
00:24:35.500 --> 00:24:37.509
of amatol, to hobble

785
00:24:37.510 --> 00:24:39.339
it so that instead of tearing

786
00:24:39.340 --> 00:24:41.169
loose once and for all from the

787
00:24:41.170 --> 00:24:43.059
mundane pull, it

788
00:24:43.060 --> 00:24:45.099
only arced back to earth

789
00:24:45.100 --> 00:24:46.959
and killed the people among whom

790
00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:49.089
it fell, was to abuse

791
00:24:49.090 --> 00:24:50.289
it.

792
00:24:50.290 --> 00:24:52.359
It was like using a rake to whip

793
00:24:52.360 --> 00:24:54.759
egg whites, a dagger

794
00:24:54.760 --> 00:24:56.799
to pick your teeth.

795
00:24:56.800 --> 00:24:58.659
It could be done, but to

796
00:24:58.660 --> 00:25:01.449
do so was a perversion.

797
00:25:01.450 --> 00:25:04.299
Furthermore, ineffective.

798
00:25:04.300 --> 00:25:06.609
As a weapon, a tool of strategy,

799
00:25:06.610 --> 00:25:08.199
it was clear to everyone by now that

800
00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:09.939
the V-2 had failed.

801
00:25:09.940 --> 00:25:12.219
Yes, four or five thousand

802
00:25:12.220 --> 00:25:14.199
hapless Frenchmen, Belgians,

803
00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:16.119
and Englishmen have been killed by

804
00:25:16.120 --> 00:25:17.799
the rocket bombs.

805
00:25:17.800 --> 00:25:19.359
Tens of thousands more have been

806
00:25:19.360 --> 00:25:21.550
left wounded, homeless, or afraid.

807
00:25:22.600 --> 00:25:24.459
But in the end, bombs

808
00:25:24.460 --> 00:25:26.379
of the ordinary variety

809
00:25:26.380 --> 00:25:28.539
had killed, maimed, and frightened

810
00:25:28.540 --> 00:25:30.519
people in far more terrible

811
00:25:30.520 --> 00:25:31.689
numbers.

812
00:25:31.690 --> 00:25:33.729
And now here were the Allies,

813
00:25:33.730 --> 00:25:35.919
deep into Germany, and the rockets

814
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:37.749
were impotent and no longer

815
00:25:37.750 --> 00:25:38.750
felt.

816
00:25:40.330 --> 00:25:42.549
My grandfather felt sorry

817
00:25:42.550 --> 00:25:44.529
for Wernher von Braun, whom

818
00:25:44.530 --> 00:25:46.479
he could not help envisioning as

819
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:48.609
shy, professorial,

820
00:25:48.610 --> 00:25:49.779
wearing a cardigan.

821
00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:53.529
His pity for and anger on

822
00:25:53.530 --> 00:25:56.289
behalf of the imaginary von Braun

823
00:25:56.290 --> 00:25:58.179
tapped the reservoir of his

824
00:25:58.180 --> 00:26:00.129
sorrow over the loss of his best

825
00:26:00.130 --> 00:26:01.130
friend, Alvin Aughenbaugh. Alvin Aughenbaugh,

826
00:26:04.210 --> 00:26:05.210
with a hint of Paul Henreid.

827
00:26:06.190 --> 00:26:07.190
That's how he pictured Wernher von Braun.

828
00:26:09.370 --> 00:26:10.719
Poor bastard.

829
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:12.639
He had built a ship to loft

830
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.679
us to the very edge of heaven, and

831
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:16.749
they had used it as a messenger

832
00:26:16.750 --> 00:26:17.750
of hell.

833
00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:21.459
'Lieutenant?' Father Nickel

834
00:26:21.460 --> 00:26:22.809
said.

835
00:26:22.810 --> 00:26:24.279
He put a hand on my grandfather's

836
00:26:24.280 --> 00:26:25.280
shoulder. My

837
00:26:26.350 --> 00:26:27.886
grandfather averted his face.

838
00:26:29.740 --> 00:26:30.909
Automatically, he moved to shrug off

839
00:26:30.910 --> 00:26:32.769
the old priest's hand, but in the

840
00:26:32.770 --> 00:26:34.869
end he left it where it was.

841
00:26:34.870 --> 00:26:36.131
Between him and Father Johannes

842
00:26:36.132 --> 00:26:37.132
Nickel, as between

843
00:26:39.100 --> 00:26:40.100
two stars, lay

844
00:26:41.110 --> 00:26:43.244
unbridgeable gulfs of space-time.

845
00:26:44.690 --> 00:26:46.759
And yet across the sweep

846
00:26:46.760 --> 00:26:48.619
of that desolation each

847
00:26:48.620 --> 00:26:50.509
had swum, for a moment, into the

848
00:26:50.510 --> 00:26:52.219
other's lens.

849
00:26:52.220 --> 00:26:53.220
Poor von Braun! He

850
00:26:54.350 --> 00:26:56.659
needed to know - my grandfather felt

851
00:26:56.660 --> 00:26:58.969
he must find you and tell him -

852
00:26:58.970 --> 00:27:01.429
that such a thing was possible.

853
00:27:01.430 --> 00:27:03.439
Scattered in the void were

854
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:05.719
minds capable of understanding,

855
00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:08.029
of reaching one another.

856
00:27:08.030 --> 00:27:10.009
He would put his hand on von Braun's

857
00:27:10.010 --> 00:27:11.929
shoulder the way the old priest's

858
00:27:11.930 --> 00:27:14.689
gnarled paw now made

859
00:27:14.690 --> 00:27:16.219
benedictive on his own.

860
00:27:16.220 --> 00:27:18.799
He would transmit to von Braun

861
00:27:18.800 --> 00:27:20.659
the only message lonely

862
00:27:20.660 --> 00:27:22.639
slaves of gravity might

863
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.495
send: We see

864
00:27:24.496 --> 00:27:25.569
you - we are here."

865
00:27:25.570 --> 00:27:26.570
Thanks

866
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:29.720
a lot.

867
00:27:30.380 --> 00:27:31.380
Of course. All

868
00:27:38.610 --> 00:27:40.459
of that is just a setup

869
00:27:40.460 --> 00:27:42.469
really for the ultimate disillusion

870
00:27:42.470 --> 00:27:43.519
and disappointment in the

871
00:27:43.520 --> 00:27:45.139
grandfather because von Braun turns

872
00:27:46.220 --> 00:27:48.109
out to be nothing like that at

873
00:27:48.110 --> 00:27:49.340
all, like he pictures.

874
00:27:50.510 --> 00:27:51.589
Well, one other thing about the

875
00:27:51.590 --> 00:27:53.539
grandfather that I was interested

876
00:27:53.540 --> 00:27:54.540
in.

877
00:27:55.190 --> 00:27:57.139
Throughout the novel, he resists the

878
00:27:57.140 --> 00:27:59.539
idea that his experiences in war

879
00:27:59.540 --> 00:28:00.979
add up to something meaningful.

880
00:28:00.980 --> 00:28:02.779
He really doesn't like that idea.

881
00:28:02.780 --> 00:28:04.699
And this, to me, it

882
00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:06.799
seemed, in one way, to refer to

883
00:28:06.800 --> 00:28:07.969
a human experience of war.

884
00:28:07.970 --> 00:28:09.109
But I wonder if it also doesn't

885
00:28:09.110 --> 00:28:10.729
refer more specifically to the

886
00:28:10.730 --> 00:28:11.929
grandfather as a member of the

887
00:28:11.930 --> 00:28:13.939
greatest generation, as we call it,

888
00:28:13.940 --> 00:28:15.717
which is a generation

889
00:28:16.850 --> 00:28:18.679
that we can easily tell stories

890
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:19.823
about good versus evil and America

891
00:28:19.824 --> 00:28:22.219
fighting for freedom.

892
00:28:22.220 --> 00:28:23.119
I think it's something more

893
00:28:23.120 --> 00:28:24.349
fundamental than that from the

894
00:28:24.350 --> 00:28:25.339
grandfather's point of view.

895
00:28:25.340 --> 00:28:26.366
I think it's a fundamental-- he's

896
00:28:28.220 --> 00:28:29.269
kind of a nihilist.

897
00:28:29.270 --> 00:28:30.270
It's

898
00:28:31.100 --> 00:28:33.079
not just war that he thinks-- his

899
00:28:33.080 --> 00:28:34.219
experience of war that he thinks

900
00:28:34.220 --> 00:28:35.389
didn't add up to anything.

901
00:28:35.390 --> 00:28:37.099
He doesn't think anything adds up to

902
00:28:37.100 --> 00:28:38.100
anything.

903
00:28:38.690 --> 00:28:40.519
And there's a

904
00:28:40.520 --> 00:28:41.689
certain gentle

905
00:28:42.710 --> 00:28:44.869
banter, teasing back and forth

906
00:28:44.870 --> 00:28:46.339
between him and his grandson.

907
00:28:46.340 --> 00:28:48.739
The grandson is a budding novelist

908
00:28:48.740 --> 00:28:50.779
who makes his living trying to make

909
00:28:50.780 --> 00:28:52.279
sense of things, trying to make

910
00:28:52.280 --> 00:28:53.359
things make sense.

911
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:56.479
And the grandfather

912
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:58.129
teases him a little bit about that.

913
00:28:58.130 --> 00:28:59.569
At some point, he's going, "You're

914
00:28:59.570 --> 00:29:01.250
going to take all this random

915
00:29:02.300 --> 00:29:03.749
nonsense that I'm telling you.

916
00:29:03.750 --> 00:29:05.879
These painful stories

917
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:07.069
that don't add up to anything.

918
00:29:07.070 --> 00:29:08.629
And you go ahead, take them, and you

919
00:29:08.630 --> 00:29:10.819
just put a lot of pretty metaphors

920
00:29:10.820 --> 00:29:12.679
in there and make it all add up,

921
00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:14.179
and it's all going to make sense."

922
00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:16.069
And by saying that, he

923
00:29:16.070 --> 00:29:18.439
is contemptuous of that enterprise.

924
00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.109
Whereas for the grandson, that's

925
00:29:21.110 --> 00:29:22.110
the whole point.

926
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:24.559
And the grandson might be willing to

927
00:29:24.560 --> 00:29:26.449
grant that - as I think a lot of

928
00:29:26.450 --> 00:29:27.450
us would grant that -

929
00:29:30.530 --> 00:29:32.309
on some level, nothing really does

930
00:29:32.310 --> 00:29:34.279
mean-- nothing inherently

931
00:29:34.280 --> 00:29:35.659
means anything.

932
00:29:35.660 --> 00:29:37.669
The only thing-- the only meaning

933
00:29:37.670 --> 00:29:39.439
comes from us.

934
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:41.869
We impose meaning and

935
00:29:41.870 --> 00:29:42.739
randomness.

936
00:29:42.740 --> 00:29:44.659
And you can either think

937
00:29:44.660 --> 00:29:46.789
that's foolish,

938
00:29:46.790 --> 00:29:48.439
then you can just say-- it just like

939
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:50.719
when people see the face of Elvis

940
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:52.670
in a tortilla, right?

941
00:29:53.810 --> 00:29:56.269
Or you can think it's beautiful

942
00:29:56.270 --> 00:29:57.592
or noble or

943
00:30:00.020 --> 00:30:01.879
else just the only hedge you have

944
00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:04.039
against committing suicide.

945
00:30:04.040 --> 00:30:06.019
So I think

946
00:30:06.020 --> 00:30:07.879
it's more deeply wired in the

947
00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:10.519
grandfather to just deny

948
00:30:10.520 --> 00:30:12.559
that anything has meaning.

949
00:30:12.560 --> 00:30:14.329
He's such an empiricist.

950
00:30:14.330 --> 00:30:16.849
He has such a rational kind of mind

951
00:30:16.850 --> 00:30:18.456
that he just doesn't buy it.

952
00:30:19.760 --> 00:30:21.649
Yeah. Well, what I

953
00:30:21.650 --> 00:30:23.269
want to ask you also about one of

954
00:30:23.270 --> 00:30:24.919
the other characters that maybe the

955
00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:26.959
second most important character in

956
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:29.029
the novel is the grandmother.

957
00:30:29.030 --> 00:30:29.899
She is interesting.

958
00:30:29.900 --> 00:30:30.859
I heard you talk about the

959
00:30:30.860 --> 00:30:31.909
development of that character.

960
00:30:31.910 --> 00:30:33.739
And you talked about wanting

961
00:30:33.740 --> 00:30:35.029
to create the character as an

962
00:30:35.030 --> 00:30:36.919
enigma. But when you were writing

963
00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:38.239
drafts of the novel, your readers

964
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:39.319
kept saying, "We want more of this

965
00:30:39.320 --> 00:30:40.249
character. We want more of this

966
00:30:40.250 --> 00:30:41.359
character." So can you say a little

967
00:30:41.360 --> 00:30:42.889
bit more about how she developed?

968
00:30:42.890 --> 00:30:44.179
Yeah. Well, I mean, the grandmother

969
00:30:44.180 --> 00:30:46.129
is-- I

970
00:30:46.130 --> 00:30:48.019
knew from the start that she

971
00:30:48.020 --> 00:30:49.819
suffered from a form of mental

972
00:30:49.820 --> 00:30:51.799
illness, that she was tormented,

973
00:30:51.800 --> 00:30:53.209
that she undergoes some kind of

974
00:30:53.210 --> 00:30:55.279
terrible experience during the war

975
00:30:55.280 --> 00:30:56.359
related to the Holocaust.

976
00:30:56.360 --> 00:30:57.229
I think you need to maybe move your

977
00:30:57.230 --> 00:30:58.230
mic closer to the--

978
00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:00.829
Have you guys just been not hearing

979
00:31:00.830 --> 00:31:01.830
me this whole time?

980
00:31:04.370 --> 00:31:05.509
It's so polite.

981
00:31:08.450 --> 00:31:09.439
If this was New York, it would be louder.

982
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:10.440
Yeah.

983
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:15.640
Is that better?

984
00:31:20.790 --> 00:31:21.839
What was I saying? Oh, yeah.

985
00:31:21.840 --> 00:31:23.819
So. But I had this idea

986
00:31:23.820 --> 00:31:24.744
because I knew the grandmother's--

987
00:31:24.745 --> 00:31:26.669
the truth about

988
00:31:26.670 --> 00:31:27.670
the grandmother

989
00:31:28.620 --> 00:31:30.029
and what happened to her during the

990
00:31:30.030 --> 00:31:32.159
war was the mystery and was

991
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:34.079
an enigma. And she herself was an

992
00:31:34.080 --> 00:31:35.879
enigma. She's enigmatic.

993
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:37.859
So that's

994
00:31:37.860 --> 00:31:39.359
what I told myself while I was

995
00:31:39.360 --> 00:31:40.679
writing this novel.

996
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:42.509
Any time I actually felt like I

997
00:31:42.510 --> 00:31:43.829
probably should say something about

998
00:31:43.830 --> 00:31:45.019
the grandmother and let go.

999
00:31:45.020 --> 00:31:47.129
I had made this decision not

1000
00:31:47.130 --> 00:31:49.289
to enter her point of view.

1001
00:31:49.290 --> 00:31:51.299
That now is the way I was going

1002
00:31:51.300 --> 00:31:52.300
to sort of

1003
00:31:53.430 --> 00:31:55.379
create this enigma,

1004
00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:56.977
which was by if we don't ever--

1005
00:31:56.978 --> 00:31:58.890
we're never privy to her thoughts,

1006
00:32:00.150 --> 00:32:02.759
then she's enigmatic,

1007
00:32:02.760 --> 00:32:03.959
just like all of us.

1008
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:05.759
Right? Because none of us is privy

1009
00:32:05.760 --> 00:32:06.809
to anyone else's thoughts.

1010
00:32:06.810 --> 00:32:08.099
So.

1011
00:32:08.100 --> 00:32:09.899
But what that turned out to be was

1012
00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:11.759
just an excuse, on my part, to

1013
00:32:11.760 --> 00:32:13.739
not do a good enough job writing

1014
00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:14.740
because,

1015
00:32:15.860 --> 00:32:17.729
I mean, I got to the

1016
00:32:17.730 --> 00:32:19.529
end of what I felt was a solid,

1017
00:32:19.530 --> 00:32:21.419
complete draft of the book and

1018
00:32:23.340 --> 00:32:24.629
close to being finished.

1019
00:32:24.630 --> 00:32:25.859
And I gave it to a couple of

1020
00:32:25.860 --> 00:32:27.239
readers, including my wife

1021
00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:31.109
and my editor and a

1022
00:32:31.110 --> 00:32:32.489
very close reader that I always

1023
00:32:32.490 --> 00:32:34.109
asked to read my stuff.

1024
00:32:34.110 --> 00:32:35.729
And they all said, "More grandmother."

1025
00:32:35.730 --> 00:32:36.730
So

1026
00:32:38.310 --> 00:32:39.729
then, I was like, "No, she's

1027
00:32:39.730 --> 00:32:40.409
enigmatic."

1028
00:32:40.410 --> 00:32:41.410
Right. You don't get it.

1029
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:46.599
You're supposed to feel that. But what I didn't

1030
00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:50.358
know because--

1031
00:32:51.450 --> 00:32:52.619
I didn't know her because I had

1032
00:32:52.620 --> 00:32:54.479
never stopped to think about her.

1033
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.549
She was enigmatic, so

1034
00:32:56.550 --> 00:32:57.989
I didn't have to.

1035
00:32:57.990 --> 00:32:59.999
But at that point,

1036
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.349
I had been working on this book for

1037
00:33:01.350 --> 00:33:03.629
almost three years.

1038
00:33:03.630 --> 00:33:05.429
Yeah, for a little over three years.

1039
00:33:05.430 --> 00:33:07.289
And when I

1040
00:33:07.290 --> 00:33:09.299
sat down to

1041
00:33:09.300 --> 00:33:10.799
try to do this, I very quickly

1042
00:33:10.800 --> 00:33:11.999
realized two things.

1043
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.159
One, that the place I had failed

1044
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:15.989
was that it's fine

1045
00:33:15.990 --> 00:33:17.399
to have her be enigmatic.

1046
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:19.079
It's fine to have the people around

1047
00:33:19.080 --> 00:33:20.526
her not know her,

1048
00:33:21.630 --> 00:33:24.179
not know the truth, or not be

1049
00:33:24.180 --> 00:33:27.239
able to really understand the form

1050
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:28.770
her insanity takes and so on.

1051
00:33:29.970 --> 00:33:32.009
But then I have to do a really

1052
00:33:32.010 --> 00:33:33.509
good job of writing about what it's

1053
00:33:33.510 --> 00:33:35.099
like to be the husband of someone

1054
00:33:35.100 --> 00:33:37.169
like that, what it's like to be

1055
00:33:37.170 --> 00:33:38.609
the daughter of someone like that,

1056
00:33:38.610 --> 00:33:40.709
what it's like to be the grandson

1057
00:33:40.710 --> 00:33:41.879
of someone like that.

1058
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:43.859
And I had little parts

1059
00:33:43.860 --> 00:33:45.419
in the book already where I had sort

1060
00:33:45.420 --> 00:33:47.339
of addressed this, looking

1061
00:33:47.340 --> 00:33:48.629
at the grandmother from the

1062
00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:49.799
grandfather's point of view, looking

1063
00:33:49.800 --> 00:33:51.449
at the grandmother from the mother's

1064
00:33:51.450 --> 00:33:52.469
point of view, from her daughter's

1065
00:33:52.470 --> 00:33:54.689
point of view, but not enough.

1066
00:33:54.690 --> 00:33:56.009
And I hadn't really thought through

1067
00:33:56.010 --> 00:33:58.259
just really, what is this family

1068
00:33:58.260 --> 00:34:00.059
like? What is this household like

1069
00:34:01.170 --> 00:34:04.019
because of this sort of warping,

1070
00:34:04.020 --> 00:34:05.009
powerful field?

1071
00:34:05.010 --> 00:34:06.959
And she's a very

1072
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:08.879
attractive, appealing,

1073
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:10.979
lively person with a sense

1074
00:34:10.980 --> 00:34:12.178
of mischief and fun.

1075
00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:14.069
And she's theatrical, and she's

1076
00:34:14.070 --> 00:34:15.988
fun to be around, except when

1077
00:34:15.989 --> 00:34:18.150
she's not. And when she's not, she's

1078
00:34:19.469 --> 00:34:21.899
frightening and depressed and

1079
00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:23.939
melancholy and

1080
00:34:23.940 --> 00:34:26.519
ill and emotional and tempestuous.

1081
00:34:26.520 --> 00:34:28.439
And so when

1082
00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:29.790
you have someone who is

1083
00:34:32.370 --> 00:34:34.229
unpredictable-- living with

1084
00:34:34.230 --> 00:34:36.599
an unpredictable person affects

1085
00:34:36.600 --> 00:34:37.709
the people who live with an

1086
00:34:37.710 --> 00:34:39.509
unpredictable person in predictable

1087
00:34:39.510 --> 00:34:41.428
ways. And that's what I

1088
00:34:41.429 --> 00:34:43.319
hadn't really gotten at.

1089
00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:44.789
And the thing I really hadn't done

1090
00:34:44.790 --> 00:34:45.790
yet was

1091
00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:48.749
written about the grandmother from

1092
00:34:48.750 --> 00:34:49.919
the grandson's point of view.

1093
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:51.779
And I had this narrator here, and

1094
00:34:51.780 --> 00:34:53.249
I had been sort of very faithful to

1095
00:34:53.250 --> 00:34:55.289
this idea that the narrator was just

1096
00:34:55.290 --> 00:34:56.999
simply, in a sense, reporting what

1097
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:58.679
he heard from his grandfather about

1098
00:34:58.680 --> 00:34:59.489
his grandfather's life.

1099
00:34:59.490 --> 00:35:02.039
And he's reporting what he sees

1100
00:35:02.040 --> 00:35:03.959
when he's sitting next

1101
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:05.729
to his grandfather in the bed.

1102
00:35:05.730 --> 00:35:07.799
But I never really went into the

1103
00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:08.999
narrator's life at all.

1104
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:10.889
And I decided, okay,

1105
00:35:10.890 --> 00:35:12.089
one way I'm going to solve this

1106
00:35:12.090 --> 00:35:14.099
problem is by writing some

1107
00:35:14.100 --> 00:35:15.809
scenes of memories of the

1108
00:35:15.810 --> 00:35:16.967
grandfather on the part of the-- of

1109
00:35:16.968 --> 00:35:18.359
the grandmother on the part of the

1110
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:19.199
narrator.

1111
00:35:19.200 --> 00:35:21.209
And what I discovered

1112
00:35:21.210 --> 00:35:23.249
as soon as I did that

1113
00:35:23.250 --> 00:35:25.259
was I knew so much

1114
00:35:25.260 --> 00:35:27.119
about her that I didn't know

1115
00:35:27.120 --> 00:35:28.919
that I knew. And she actually-- it

1116
00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:30.479
was a really magical experience

1117
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:32.039
writing these last-- it was the last

1118
00:35:32.040 --> 00:35:33.389
six weeks I spent working on the

1119
00:35:33.390 --> 00:35:35.279
book, and the grandmother

1120
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:36.179
just came alive.

1121
00:35:36.180 --> 00:35:38.279
And it turned out I

1122
00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:40.019
knew everything I needed to know

1123
00:35:40.020 --> 00:35:41.969
about her, and I knew just

1124
00:35:41.970 --> 00:35:43.122
how it felt to be her grandson.

1125
00:35:43.123 --> 00:35:44.123
And

1126
00:35:45.120 --> 00:35:47.459
all of that stuff, to me, completely

1127
00:35:47.460 --> 00:35:48.689
transformed the book.

1128
00:35:48.690 --> 00:35:49.979
And it's sometimes a little

1129
00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:51.299
terrifying to contemplate, like,

1130
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:52.829
what would have happened if I

1131
00:35:52.830 --> 00:35:53.909
hadn't.

1132
00:35:53.910 --> 00:35:56.669
If I just either hadn't consulted

1133
00:35:56.670 --> 00:35:58.169
all the readers I did or if I had

1134
00:35:58.170 --> 00:35:59.159
just sort of said, "You know what?

1135
00:35:59.160 --> 00:36:00.899
I'm done with it. Just go ahead and

1136
00:36:00.900 --> 00:36:02.549
publish it." Which I feel sometimes

1137
00:36:02.550 --> 00:36:04.079
seems to happen with certain books

1138
00:36:04.080 --> 00:36:05.999
where you feel like the

1139
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:07.829
author probably could have taken

1140
00:36:07.830 --> 00:36:09.899
another six weeks at it but probably

1141
00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:10.900
didn't feel like it.

1142
00:36:11.940 --> 00:36:12.940
So this

1143
00:36:15.030 --> 00:36:16.389
book was a mysterious book to me.

1144
00:36:16.390 --> 00:36:17.519
It arose mysteriously.

1145
00:36:17.520 --> 00:36:18.629
I didn't plan to write it.

1146
00:36:18.630 --> 00:36:19.559
I thought I was going to be writing

1147
00:36:19.560 --> 00:36:20.560
another book.

1148
00:36:21.750 --> 00:36:23.189
I started telling the story that

1149
00:36:23.190 --> 00:36:24.449
opens the novel about the

1150
00:36:24.450 --> 00:36:26.459
grandfather losing his job being

1151
00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:27.869
fired to make room on the payroll

1152
00:36:27.870 --> 00:36:29.759
for Alger Hiss after Alger Hiss gets

1153
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.769
out of prison, which is based

1154
00:36:31.770 --> 00:36:33.929
on an actual family anecdote.

1155
00:36:33.930 --> 00:36:35.519
Or so I thought, until somebody told

1156
00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:36.749
me that wasn't the case.

1157
00:36:36.750 --> 00:36:38.609
But that's how stories go

1158
00:36:38.610 --> 00:36:39.329
in families.

1159
00:36:39.330 --> 00:36:40.330
It doesn't really matter.

1160
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:43.889
In any case, and it just went

1161
00:36:43.890 --> 00:36:45.329
from there. And then, when it was

1162
00:36:45.330 --> 00:36:47.069
time to work the grandmother into

1163
00:36:47.070 --> 00:36:48.929
the story, she was there for me in

1164
00:36:48.930 --> 00:36:50.729
the same kind of mysterious way.

1165
00:36:50.730 --> 00:36:52.829
She's an absolutely wonderful

1166
00:36:52.830 --> 00:36:54.059
character. I wonder if you'd read

1167
00:36:54.060 --> 00:36:55.169
another passage in the book that

1168
00:36:55.170 --> 00:36:57.119
focuses on her and maybe

1169
00:36:57.120 --> 00:36:58.049
set it up a little bit.

1170
00:36:58.050 --> 00:36:59.819
This is a play that she performs.

1171
00:36:59.820 --> 00:37:00.820
Yeah. I mean,

1172
00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:06.659
it's tricky to set up in a way.

1173
00:37:06.660 --> 00:37:08.519
This chapter is written

1174
00:37:08.520 --> 00:37:10.019
from the mother's point of view.

1175
00:37:10.020 --> 00:37:12.119
In other words, my

1176
00:37:12.120 --> 00:37:14.039
mother, when she's a girl

1177
00:37:14.040 --> 00:37:15.059
and her mother has been

1178
00:37:15.060 --> 00:37:16.889
institutionalized and

1179
00:37:16.890 --> 00:37:18.148
is now being released.

1180
00:37:18.149 --> 00:37:20.039
And they go to pick her up,

1181
00:37:20.040 --> 00:37:22.589
and they have to wait because

1182
00:37:22.590 --> 00:37:24.509
she's been involved in this amateur

1183
00:37:24.510 --> 00:37:26.339
theatrical at this

1184
00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:28.499
mental hospital. It's Greystone

1185
00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:29.850
in New Jersey, and

1186
00:37:31.230 --> 00:37:32.909
the daughter kind of just walks in

1187
00:37:32.910 --> 00:37:34.919
and sees this show in

1188
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:36.899
a sense. And she really has

1189
00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:38.849
no idea what's happening.

1190
00:37:38.850 --> 00:37:40.139
So if you have no idea what's

1191
00:37:40.140 --> 00:37:42.449
happening, that's intentional.

1192
00:37:42.450 --> 00:37:44.039
It's enigmatic.

1193
00:37:44.040 --> 00:37:45.040
Yeah.

1194
00:37:48.150 --> 00:37:50.279
The lights come up on a field

1195
00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:51.280
of clover.

1196
00:37:52.020 --> 00:37:54.539
Trefoil hands, faces uplifted

1197
00:37:54.540 --> 00:37:56.399
toward a shiny sun that

1198
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.379
hangs above their spiky pink

1199
00:37:58.380 --> 00:37:59.380
and white heads.

1200
00:38:00.450 --> 00:38:02.879
A swarm of fat-bottomed bees

1201
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:05.759
careen in and out among the flowers.

1202
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:07.769
Wordlessly, they quarrel

1203
00:38:07.770 --> 00:38:09.359
with the flowers.

1204
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:11.309
They dip into the flowers' faces

1205
00:38:11.310 --> 00:38:13.409
with the bowls of big wooden spoons.

1206
00:38:14.730 --> 00:38:16.829
George Washington appears, dressed

1207
00:38:16.830 --> 00:38:18.809
in knee britches, a powdered

1208
00:38:18.810 --> 00:38:20.999
wig, a greatcoat, hatchet

1209
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.009
slung from his belt.

1210
00:38:23.010 --> 00:38:25.223
He stomps around abusing the

1211
00:38:25.224 --> 00:38:26.759
flowers and exhorting the bees to

1212
00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:28.440
molest them for their nectar.

1213
00:38:29.940 --> 00:38:31.409
This is not George Washington, it

1214
00:38:31.410 --> 00:38:33.689
turns out, but a herdsman

1215
00:38:33.690 --> 00:38:34.690
of bees.

1216
00:38:35.580 --> 00:38:37.319
The purpose or significance of the

1217
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.329
hatchet, apparently not intended

1218
00:38:39.330 --> 00:38:40.799
for the chopping down of a cherry

1219
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.630
tree, remains unclear.

1220
00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:46.229
The bee herder watches contentedly

1221
00:38:46.230 --> 00:38:48.179
as his bees fly back and forth

1222
00:38:48.180 --> 00:38:49.769
with their ladles full of nectar

1223
00:38:49.770 --> 00:38:51.689
from the looted flowers to their

1224
00:38:51.690 --> 00:38:53.669
unseen hive.

1225
00:38:53.670 --> 00:38:55.619
All of this is routine for

1226
00:38:55.620 --> 00:38:56.939
the bee herder.

1227
00:38:56.940 --> 00:38:59.039
He lounges on a hummock and fights

1228
00:38:59.040 --> 00:39:00.659
to stay awake.

1229
00:39:00.660 --> 00:39:02.519
The sun with its metallic

1230
00:39:02.520 --> 00:39:03.602
glow goes down.

1231
00:39:03.603 --> 00:39:06.089
Evening hoists

1232
00:39:06.090 --> 00:39:08.279
a silvery moon into the heavens.

1233
00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:12.899
A pair of bears, unseen

1234
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:14.849
by the bee herder, shamble

1235
00:39:14.850 --> 00:39:17.279
on from stage left.

1236
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:19.229
They swing their heads in unison

1237
00:39:19.230 --> 00:39:22.379
from side to side as they advance.

1238
00:39:22.380 --> 00:39:24.869
They are shabby-looking bears,

1239
00:39:24.870 --> 00:39:26.759
a couple of ruffians with patchy

1240
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:28.109
coats.

1241
00:39:28.110 --> 00:39:30.089
They observe the traffic

1242
00:39:30.090 --> 00:39:31.709
in nectar.

1243
00:39:31.710 --> 00:39:33.419
When the bee herder's back is

1244
00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:35.237
turned, they accost he plumpest

1245
00:39:35.238 --> 00:39:37.289
of his bees.

1246
00:39:37.290 --> 00:39:39.239
They threaten it with violence and

1247
00:39:39.240 --> 00:39:41.999
confiscate its wooden spoon.

1248
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:43.829
With bearish ardor, they

1249
00:39:43.830 --> 00:39:46.709
guzzle up every drop.

1250
00:39:46.710 --> 00:39:48.599
At last the cries of the

1251
00:39:48.600 --> 00:39:51.029
assaulted bee attract the attention

1252
00:39:51.030 --> 00:39:52.736
of the drowsing bee herder.

1253
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:55.499
He leaps to his feet and throws his

1254
00:39:55.500 --> 00:39:57.389
silver hatchet at the bears.

1255
00:39:57.390 --> 00:39:59.589
But instead of striking

1256
00:39:59.590 --> 00:40:01.799
them, it just keeps rising,

1257
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:04.289
all the way to the moon overhead,

1258
00:40:04.290 --> 00:40:06.119
where it lodges with a soft

1259
00:40:06.120 --> 00:40:08.309
thump like a dictionary falling

1260
00:40:08.310 --> 00:40:09.310
onto a pillow.

1261
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:13.529
The bee herder studies the problem.

1262
00:40:13.530 --> 00:40:15.749
He fidgets with his wig.

1263
00:40:15.750 --> 00:40:18.089
Then he remembers his rope.

1264
00:40:18.090 --> 00:40:20.309
He makes a lariat, swings

1265
00:40:20.310 --> 00:40:22.559
it over his head with an audible

1266
00:40:22.560 --> 00:40:24.029
whirr, and then launches the loop

1267
00:40:24.030 --> 00:40:25.679
toward the hatchet with its handle

1268
00:40:25.680 --> 00:40:27.779
protruding from the moon.

1269
00:40:27.780 --> 00:40:29.159
The loop misses the handle and the

1270
00:40:29.160 --> 00:40:30.989
rope falls back to earth.

1271
00:40:30.990 --> 00:40:32.669
He windmills it and launches it

1272
00:40:32.670 --> 00:40:34.169
moonward again.

1273
00:40:34.170 --> 00:40:36.509
This time the eye of the rope snags

1274
00:40:36.510 --> 00:40:37.649
the wooden handle.

1275
00:40:37.650 --> 00:40:39.389
He gives it a tug and then starts to

1276
00:40:39.390 --> 00:40:41.339
pull himself up the rope hand

1277
00:40:41.340 --> 00:40:42.659
over hand.

1278
00:40:42.660 --> 00:40:43.660
Bees, bears,

1279
00:40:44.550 --> 00:40:46.649
and flowers raise their heads

1280
00:40:46.650 --> 00:40:49.079
and gawp in amazement.

1281
00:40:49.080 --> 00:40:50.080
The bee herder climbs unamazed.

1282
00:40:53.310 --> 00:40:55.079
Darkness falls over the field of

1283
00:40:55.080 --> 00:40:56.080
clover, dawn breaks

1284
00:40:57.660 --> 00:40:58.660
on the moon.

1285
00:41:00.060 --> 00:41:01.060
Jagged moon mountains

1286
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:03.899
glow cool and silvery

1287
00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:05.859
blue in the background as the bee

1288
00:41:05.860 --> 00:41:07.919
herder, hatchet restored,

1289
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:09.809
strolls along unfazed by

1290
00:41:09.810 --> 00:41:10.810
his new surroundings. He

1291
00:41:11.850 --> 00:41:14.249
passes silver moon trees

1292
00:41:14.250 --> 00:41:16.859
like the skeletons of cacti.

1293
00:41:16.860 --> 00:41:18.689
He picks a bouquet of

1294
00:41:18.690 --> 00:41:19.690
silver moonflowers.

1295
00:41:21.240 --> 00:41:23.189
As he turns, he notices

1296
00:41:23.190 --> 00:41:25.379
a small silver ball rolling

1297
00:41:25.380 --> 00:41:27.059
toward his feet.

1298
00:41:27.060 --> 00:41:28.649
A woman comes running in after it

1299
00:41:28.650 --> 00:41:30.749
but stops when she sees him.

1300
00:41:30.750 --> 00:41:32.759
She wears a silver gown and

1301
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:33.760
a silver crown.

1302
00:41:34.710 --> 00:41:36.689
A large pair of silver wings

1303
00:41:36.690 --> 00:41:38.969
rise up behind her, a moth's

1304
00:41:38.970 --> 00:41:41.129
wings, billowing gently

1305
00:41:41.130 --> 00:41:43.529
in a lunar breeze.

1306
00:41:43.530 --> 00:41:45.389
He picks up the ball, and for

1307
00:41:45.390 --> 00:41:47.879
a moment they regard each other.

1308
00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:49.829
Then he crosses her the ball,

1309
00:41:49.830 --> 00:41:50.830
and she catches it.

1310
00:41:52.600 --> 00:41:54.759
What befalls the bee herder

1311
00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:56.829
and the Queen of the Moon after

1312
00:41:56.830 --> 00:41:57.830
this first encounter - how

1313
00:41:59.050 --> 00:42:01.869
the pantomime is meant to end -

1314
00:42:01.870 --> 00:42:03.729
will remain forever

1315
00:42:03.730 --> 00:42:05.649
unknown by my mother.

1316
00:42:09.820 --> 00:42:11.259
The mountains of the moon glowing

1317
00:42:11.260 --> 00:42:13.509
under the light of a blue gel at

1318
00:42:13.510 --> 00:42:15.399
the back of the stage were

1319
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:17.799
tinfoil balls, massed

1320
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:20.229
and squashed into cake-frosting

1321
00:42:20.230 --> 00:42:21.579
peaks.

1322
00:42:21.580 --> 00:42:23.469
The moon trees were a couple

1323
00:42:23.470 --> 00:42:25.569
of branching coat racks wrapped

1324
00:42:25.570 --> 00:42:27.395
in more foil -

1325
00:42:27.396 --> 00:42:28.659
'silver paper,' my grandmother

1326
00:42:28.660 --> 00:42:29.660
always called it.

1327
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:32.385
The moonflowers were

1328
00:42:32.386 --> 00:42:34.299
clusters of eggbeaters, whisks,

1329
00:42:34.300 --> 00:42:36.249
and serving spoons planted

1330
00:42:36.250 --> 00:42:37.250
in cake pans.

1331
00:42:38.500 --> 00:42:41.199
It was all so ridiculous and sad.

1332
00:42:41.200 --> 00:42:42.669
It was pathetic.

1333
00:42:42.670 --> 00:42:44.559
And yet the foil

1334
00:42:44.560 --> 00:42:45.560
shown in the subaqueous light.

1335
00:42:47.500 --> 00:42:49.209
The coat racks raising their

1336
00:42:49.210 --> 00:42:51.369
jubilant arms and the bouquets

1337
00:42:51.370 --> 00:42:53.109
of kitchen implements had the

1338
00:42:53.110 --> 00:42:55.059
incongruous dignity of

1339
00:42:55.060 --> 00:42:56.060
homely things. Looking

1340
00:42:58.300 --> 00:43:00.159
into the radiant mouth of the

1341
00:43:00.160 --> 00:43:01.989
stage, my mother felt a

1342
00:43:01.990 --> 00:43:04.599
strong sense of recognition,

1343
00:43:04.600 --> 00:43:06.489
as if she had visited this world

1344
00:43:06.490 --> 00:43:07.490
in a dream. As

1345
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:10.419
if, when she was a child,

1346
00:43:10.420 --> 00:43:12.819
the fog of her mother's dreams

1347
00:43:12.820 --> 00:43:14.739
had rolled through the house every

1348
00:43:14.740 --> 00:43:16.809
night and left this sparkling

1349
00:43:16.810 --> 00:43:18.400
residue on her memory.

1350
00:43:19.750 --> 00:43:22.119
There was no way the baffling

1351
00:43:22.120 --> 00:43:24.069
history of a spacefaring

1352
00:43:24.070 --> 00:43:25.929
bee herder and his visit

1353
00:43:25.930 --> 00:43:27.819
to the moon could have

1354
00:43:27.820 --> 00:43:29.649
been written by anyone

1355
00:43:29.650 --> 00:43:30.650
else.

1356
00:43:31.540 --> 00:43:33.819
The Queen of the Moon entered,

1357
00:43:33.820 --> 00:43:35.679
chasing the little ball of foil,

1358
00:43:35.680 --> 00:43:37.839
in her tinfoil dress and crown,

1359
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:39.729
and her wobbling wings made

1360
00:43:39.730 --> 00:43:41.799
from nylons stretched over coat

1361
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:43.780
hangers and glued with sequins.

1362
00:43:44.950 --> 00:43:47.019
This was not the moon at

1363
00:43:47.020 --> 00:43:48.159
all.

1364
00:43:48.160 --> 00:43:49.425
It was some other world - some

1365
00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:51.920
other mother - uncharted

1366
00:43:53.740 --> 00:43:55.420
and hitherto unknown.

1367
00:43:57.580 --> 00:43:59.439
'It was just the most beautiful

1368
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:01.180
thing,' my mother told me.

1369
00:44:02.770 --> 00:44:04.599
Then the bright glints seemed to

1370
00:44:04.600 --> 00:44:06.669
startle from her the tinfoil

1371
00:44:06.670 --> 00:44:08.919
crown and swarm

1372
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:10.989
the air between her mother and her,

1373
00:44:10.990 --> 00:44:12.969
jigging and fluttering,

1374
00:44:12.970 --> 00:44:14.949
until they all flew away and left

1375
00:44:14.950 --> 00:44:15.950
her in the dark."

1376
00:44:17.590 --> 00:44:18.590
Thanks a lot. That's a great passage.

1377
00:44:27.150 --> 00:44:28.259
That's--

1378
00:44:28.260 --> 00:44:30.479
So she passed out. She's so shocked

1379
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:32.189
to see her mother-- the queen of the

1380
00:44:32.190 --> 00:44:34.259
moon is her mother. She passed

1381
00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:35.260
out. She's about 14.

1382
00:44:36.750 --> 00:44:38.879
I love that passage.

1383
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:40.709
And one of the things I like

1384
00:44:40.710 --> 00:44:42.269
so much about it is it's something I

1385
00:44:42.270 --> 00:44:44.099
see other times

1386
00:44:44.100 --> 00:44:44.969
in your fiction, which is this

1387
00:44:44.970 --> 00:44:46.799
juxtaposition of this moment of

1388
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:48.629
magic or enchantment, and then next

1389
00:44:48.630 --> 00:44:49.979
to that, something that seems so

1390
00:44:49.980 --> 00:44:51.089
dull and unenchanted.

1391
00:44:51.090 --> 00:44:52.589
And in this case, egg beaters and

1392
00:44:52.590 --> 00:44:53.969
coat racks and what seem like these

1393
00:44:53.970 --> 00:44:55.079
magic mountains.

1394
00:44:55.080 --> 00:44:56.549
I think of, for example, Joe

1395
00:44:56.550 --> 00:44:58.289
Kavalier in his novel when he's

1396
00:44:58.290 --> 00:45:00.449
performing as a magician.

1397
00:45:00.450 --> 00:45:01.469
Sometimes he's bound up in

1398
00:45:01.470 --> 00:45:02.729
uncomfortable spaces, and he can't

1399
00:45:02.730 --> 00:45:03.709
breathe. But that's the show.

1400
00:45:03.710 --> 00:45:05.519
That's what magic is.

1401
00:45:05.520 --> 00:45:06.749
So I wonder if this idea is

1402
00:45:06.750 --> 00:45:07.739
something, in general, that's

1403
00:45:07.740 --> 00:45:08.549
interesting to you, this

1404
00:45:08.550 --> 00:45:10.019
juxtaposition of kind of moments of

1405
00:45:10.020 --> 00:45:11.669
enchantment with struggle or

1406
00:45:11.670 --> 00:45:13.439
difficulty that kind exist at the

1407
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:14.189
same time?

1408
00:45:14.190 --> 00:45:15.484
Sure. I mean, and I'm always-- I

1409
00:45:17.220 --> 00:45:19.109
mean, disenchantment can

1410
00:45:19.110 --> 00:45:20.939
be weirdly pleasurable, even

1411
00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:21.869
as an experience.

1412
00:45:21.870 --> 00:45:23.429
Otherwise, why would we watch these,

1413
00:45:23.430 --> 00:45:25.649
like, the bonus

1414
00:45:25.650 --> 00:45:27.779
material on the end of

1415
00:45:27.780 --> 00:45:29.729
Blu-ray discs where they show

1416
00:45:29.730 --> 00:45:31.010
you that really there was no

1417
00:45:32.310 --> 00:45:33.809
one hanging from a helicopter.

1418
00:45:33.810 --> 00:45:35.249
It was all done with greenscreen.

1419
00:45:35.250 --> 00:45:37.109
And there's something

1420
00:45:37.110 --> 00:45:39.510
enjoyable about being disillusioned,

1421
00:45:41.100 --> 00:45:41.942
strangely.

1422
00:45:41.943 --> 00:45:42.943
So

1423
00:45:43.980 --> 00:45:44.980
that experience,

1424
00:45:47.130 --> 00:45:48.449
I think, is interesting-- can be

1425
00:45:48.450 --> 00:45:49.409
interesting to write about.

1426
00:45:49.410 --> 00:45:52.139
I mean, this is almost that

1427
00:45:52.140 --> 00:45:54.029
I felt like I had to do it in this

1428
00:45:54.030 --> 00:45:55.469
in these circumstances because I was

1429
00:45:55.470 --> 00:45:56.470
trying to convey

1430
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:00.749
a lot. But one thing I was trying to

1431
00:46:00.750 --> 00:46:02.879
convey was just the strangeness

1432
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:04.829
of just this moment

1433
00:46:04.830 --> 00:46:06.142
where this young teenage

1434
00:46:08.100 --> 00:46:10.019
girl realizes just how strange her

1435
00:46:10.020 --> 00:46:11.069
mother really is. Like, it's one

1436
00:46:11.070 --> 00:46:12.899
thing to think your mom is

1437
00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:14.579
crazy and she needs a doctor.

1438
00:46:14.580 --> 00:46:15.849
She had to go to a hospital.

1439
00:46:15.850 --> 00:46:17.129
You're trying to make sense of all

1440
00:46:17.130 --> 00:46:19.050
these things when you're a kid.

1441
00:46:20.160 --> 00:46:22.319
And you watch things on television

1442
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:23.320
and

1443
00:46:24.690 --> 00:46:26.789
maybe also about the crazy

1444
00:46:26.790 --> 00:46:28.259
people and how they supposedly act.

1445
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:30.239
And there's a part of you that

1446
00:46:30.240 --> 00:46:32.189
live with your mother, your

1447
00:46:32.190 --> 00:46:34.019
parent, whoever it is, your

1448
00:46:34.020 --> 00:46:35.129
whole life.

1449
00:46:35.130 --> 00:46:36.269
In a sense, you don't know any

1450
00:46:36.270 --> 00:46:37.799
better, and you don't really-- you

1451
00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:39.269
get to a certain age before you even

1452
00:46:39.270 --> 00:46:41.099
realize there's

1453
00:46:41.100 --> 00:46:42.958
something different about the way

1454
00:46:44.610 --> 00:46:46.199
this person sees the world than

1455
00:46:46.200 --> 00:46:47.939
everyone else's mother or father

1456
00:46:47.940 --> 00:46:49.613
sees the world. Whatever that might

1457
00:46:49.614 --> 00:46:50.614
be.

1458
00:46:52.110 --> 00:46:54.239
And because her mother's been gone

1459
00:46:54.240 --> 00:46:55.240
for so long,

1460
00:46:56.160 --> 00:46:58.289
seeing her kind of for the first

1461
00:46:58.290 --> 00:47:00.369
time, in a sense, of with

1462
00:47:00.370 --> 00:47:01.769
a greater

1463
00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:04.919
understanding of an older child now,

1464
00:47:06.240 --> 00:47:07.619
it's more than she can handle.

1465
00:47:07.620 --> 00:47:09.269
She sort of gets overwhelmed by the

1466
00:47:09.270 --> 00:47:10.889
experience of-- first, sort of the

1467
00:47:10.890 --> 00:47:12.719
strangeness of this scene with

1468
00:47:12.720 --> 00:47:14.549
the bees and the bears and

1469
00:47:14.550 --> 00:47:15.839
trying to figure out what's happening

1470
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:16.840
and

1471
00:47:17.790 --> 00:47:19.769
why it seems weirdly familiar

1472
00:47:19.770 --> 00:47:21.089
to her in some way, too.

1473
00:47:21.090 --> 00:47:22.919
And then, to

1474
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:26.039
have that strangeness be explained

1475
00:47:26.040 --> 00:47:27.899
all of a sudden and

1476
00:47:27.900 --> 00:47:29.649
think, "Oh, this is my mom.

1477
00:47:29.650 --> 00:47:31.319
And this is really the way she sees

1478
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:33.059
things." I think it's just-- I felt

1479
00:47:33.060 --> 00:47:34.380
like I had to do it that way.

1480
00:47:36.090 --> 00:47:37.949
To make it strange and then unveil

1481
00:47:37.950 --> 00:47:39.209
it in that way because that's what

1482
00:47:39.210 --> 00:47:40.379
she's experiencing.

1483
00:47:40.380 --> 00:47:42.089
Yeah. Well, I want to ask you one

1484
00:47:42.090 --> 00:47:43.049
other question, and then we can get

1485
00:47:43.050 --> 00:47:44.050
to some Q&A.

1486
00:47:45.450 --> 00:47:47.369
And this kind of maybe goes back

1487
00:47:47.370 --> 00:47:49.199
to the first passage that we read

1488
00:47:49.200 --> 00:47:50.549
in the end of it when talking about

1489
00:47:50.550 --> 00:47:51.809
the "we see you, we are here" and

1490
00:47:51.810 --> 00:47:52.810
making those connections.

1491
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:56.429
This is a passage from

1492
00:47:56.430 --> 00:47:58.199
the first essay in your collection

1493
00:47:58.200 --> 00:47:59.669
of essays, Maps and Legends, and

1494
00:47:59.670 --> 00:48:00.929
you're arguing on behalf of

1495
00:48:00.930 --> 00:48:02.699
entertaining fiction, which I know

1496
00:48:02.700 --> 00:48:04.769
you will not object to us calling.

1497
00:48:04.770 --> 00:48:05.669
No, I'm good with that.

1498
00:48:05.670 --> 00:48:06.670
Yeah.

1499
00:48:07.140 --> 00:48:07.769
I hope so.

1500
00:48:07.770 --> 00:48:09.869
You write that "The best response

1501
00:48:09.870 --> 00:48:11.339
to those who would cheapen and

1502
00:48:11.340 --> 00:48:13.289
exploit it is not to disparage

1503
00:48:13.290 --> 00:48:15.239
or repudiate, but to reclaim

1504
00:48:15.240 --> 00:48:16.769
entertainment as a job fit for

1505
00:48:16.770 --> 00:48:18.509
artists and for audiences.

1506
00:48:18.510 --> 00:48:20.039
A two-way exchange of attention,

1507
00:48:20.040 --> 00:48:21.959
experience, and the universal

1508
00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:23.519
hunger for connection." And so, I

1509
00:48:23.520 --> 00:48:24.701
just wanted to ask you,

1510
00:48:26.250 --> 00:48:28.229
when you finished Moonglow and you

1511
00:48:28.230 --> 00:48:29.849
cast it out into the world, is that

1512
00:48:29.850 --> 00:48:31.918
what you're hoping to contribute to?

1513
00:48:31.919 --> 00:48:33.179
Of course. Of course. I mean, and

1514
00:48:33.180 --> 00:48:34.709
while you're writing-- while I'm

1515
00:48:34.710 --> 00:48:37.170
writing, you're imagining--

1516
00:48:38.250 --> 00:48:39.719
it's an act of faith.

1517
00:48:39.720 --> 00:48:40.720
You're imagining

1518
00:48:41.970 --> 00:48:43.499
that you're in dialogue with

1519
00:48:43.500 --> 00:48:45.269
somebody that you don't know.

1520
00:48:45.270 --> 00:48:46.270
Maybe,

1521
00:48:47.580 --> 00:48:49.079
even if you're lucky, like a few

1522
00:48:49.080 --> 00:48:50.579
somebodies that you don't know.

1523
00:48:50.580 --> 00:48:52.439
And you're always wondering

1524
00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:53.440
how is this going to go over. Is this clear

1525
00:48:54.270 --> 00:48:55.319
enough? Is this funny?

1526
00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:57.239
Is this moving?

1527
00:48:57.240 --> 00:48:59.189
Did I take too long,

1528
00:48:59.190 --> 00:49:00.669
or have I not taken enough time?

1529
00:49:00.670 --> 00:49:02.339
And I'm always gauging it not so

1530
00:49:02.340 --> 00:49:04.349
much by my own taste as by sort

1531
00:49:04.350 --> 00:49:06.359
of what I hope will happen

1532
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:08.189
when it gets into the hands of a

1533
00:49:08.190 --> 00:49:09.209
reader finally.

1534
00:49:09.210 --> 00:49:10.829
And then, from the other side, as a

1535
00:49:10.830 --> 00:49:13.139
reader, it's

1536
00:49:13.140 --> 00:49:15.629
another kind of act of faith

1537
00:49:15.630 --> 00:49:16.630
that you are--

1538
00:49:17.520 --> 00:49:18.959
first of all, you put your trust in

1539
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:21.299
the writer. And you

1540
00:49:21.300 --> 00:49:22.300
do this

1541
00:49:24.750 --> 00:49:25.750
incredibly vulnerable thing

1542
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:28.829
of giving your consent

1543
00:49:28.830 --> 00:49:30.419
to being lied to.

1544
00:49:30.420 --> 00:49:32.399
And that's

1545
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:34.409
the only way lying can

1546
00:49:34.410 --> 00:49:36.509
ever be done,

1547
00:49:36.510 --> 00:49:38.459
can be good, is with the

1548
00:49:38.460 --> 00:49:40.319
consent, with the permission,

1549
00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:41.429
with encouragement.

1550
00:49:41.430 --> 00:49:42.809
Please tell me a good one.

1551
00:49:42.810 --> 00:49:43.910
I want to hear a story.

1552
00:49:43.911 --> 00:49:44.911
And

1553
00:49:45.990 --> 00:49:47.279
to put yourself in that vulnerable

1554
00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:49.229
position and then feel

1555
00:49:49.230 --> 00:49:51.149
on your end as a reader that you're

1556
00:49:51.150 --> 00:49:52.919
in connection with someone who's not

1557
00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:54.449
there. And if you're reading

1558
00:49:54.450 --> 00:49:55.919
something that was written

1559
00:49:56.940 --> 00:49:57.940
a hundred years ago or more,

1560
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:00.369
you're in connection with a mind

1561
00:50:00.370 --> 00:50:03.059
that no longer exists in any

1562
00:50:03.060 --> 00:50:04.319
corporeal form at all.

1563
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:05.969
It's this disembodied person, but

1564
00:50:05.970 --> 00:50:07.192
you are intimately connected with

1565
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:10.529
that other mind as

1566
00:50:10.530 --> 00:50:12.329
if he or she lived around the corner

1567
00:50:12.330 --> 00:50:13.949
for you. That's entertainment.

1568
00:50:15.060 --> 00:50:15.989
That's what I mean by entertainment.

1569
00:50:15.990 --> 00:50:16.990
You

1570
00:50:18.450 --> 00:50:19.829
think about that word entertainment,

1571
00:50:19.830 --> 00:50:21.149
and it has been so cheapened.

1572
00:50:21.150 --> 00:50:22.395
But we entertain guests.

1573
00:50:23.430 --> 00:50:25.327
Right? We entertain ideas.

1574
00:50:26.640 --> 00:50:28.589
We entertain

1575
00:50:28.590 --> 00:50:30.059
crazy notions.

1576
00:50:30.060 --> 00:50:31.979
There is an idea of exchange or

1577
00:50:31.980 --> 00:50:34.019
transfer, and

1578
00:50:34.020 --> 00:50:35.849
it's such a-- with reading and

1579
00:50:35.850 --> 00:50:36.850
writing,

1580
00:50:37.740 --> 00:50:39.269
it's such an unlikely one.

1581
00:50:39.270 --> 00:50:41.009
There's nobody on the other end,

1582
00:50:41.010 --> 00:50:42.989
actually or physically.

1583
00:50:42.990 --> 00:50:44.759
There's no one on the other end.

1584
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:46.769
But when it works, you feel

1585
00:50:46.770 --> 00:50:48.479
as if you're in some kind of

1586
00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:50.429
dialogue or conversation.

1587
00:50:50.430 --> 00:50:52.289
Well, I know I can say, for me,

1588
00:50:52.290 --> 00:50:54.149
it definitely worked with this novel

1589
00:50:54.150 --> 00:50:55.779
and with so many others of yours.

1590
00:50:55.780 --> 00:50:56.819
So I want to thank you for that.

1591
00:50:56.820 --> 00:50:57.820
Thank you.

1592
00:50:59.180 --> 00:51:00.149
Do you want to take some questions?

1593
00:51:00.150 --> 00:51:00.479
Yeah.

1594
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:02.999
All right. So there's a stack here

1595
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:04.799
of questions that have been sent in

1596
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:06.779
and will also come, I think,

1597
00:51:06.780 --> 00:51:08.549
from the end of aisles maybe to get

1598
00:51:08.550 --> 00:51:08.969
others.

1599
00:51:08.970 --> 00:51:09.970
Questions "R" Us.

1600
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:11.879
I think we'll do that. But you have

1601
00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:13.223
these already. So whether or not--

1602
00:51:14.670 --> 00:51:15.959
Oh, look at these. They're all taped

1603
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:16.980
up. How did this work?

1604
00:51:19.620 --> 00:51:20.625
Well, yeah. So you read through, and

1605
00:51:20.626 --> 00:51:22.469
we'll see if

1606
00:51:22.470 --> 00:51:23.319
there are others coming.

1607
00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:24.269
That would be great. But if not, we

1608
00:51:24.270 --> 00:51:26.489
have these. And see what you like.

1609
00:51:26.490 --> 00:51:28.109
Okay, let's see.

1610
00:51:28.110 --> 00:51:29.939
Let's just take the first one

1611
00:51:29.940 --> 00:51:31.409
right off the top here.

1612
00:51:31.410 --> 00:51:33.629
"A famous definition of genre

1613
00:51:33.630 --> 00:51:35.069
fiction is that it is like

1614
00:51:35.070 --> 00:51:36.809
pornography.

1615
00:51:36.810 --> 00:51:38.669
Certain events are expected by the

1616
00:51:38.670 --> 00:51:40.589
reader, and those expectations are

1617
00:51:40.590 --> 00:51:41.670
met by the author.

1618
00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:45.839
A recent review of a mystery novel

1619
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:47.549
was dismissed in a New York Times

1620
00:51:47.550 --> 00:51:49.079
review as being, as all genre

1621
00:51:49.080 --> 00:51:51.869
fiction, without ambiguity.

1622
00:51:51.870 --> 00:51:53.369
Do you think these observations are

1623
00:51:53.370 --> 00:51:55.199
accurate? Do you think of them as

1624
00:51:55.200 --> 00:51:56.939
legitimate criticisms of genre

1625
00:51:56.940 --> 00:51:59.489
quality? And how can we genre fans

1626
00:51:59.490 --> 00:52:01.409
defend ourselves against the disdain

1627
00:52:01.410 --> 00:52:03.419
of our enemies disguised

1628
00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:04.739
as friends and family?"

1629
00:52:09.060 --> 00:52:10.499
That's question one.

1630
00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:11.880
So that's just the first one.

1631
00:52:14.130 --> 00:52:15.089
That's a great question. I mean,

1632
00:52:15.090 --> 00:52:16.090
there's--

1633
00:52:17.910 --> 00:52:19.799
I'd break it down in a few pieces.

1634
00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:20.939
One piece is that

1635
00:52:22.680 --> 00:52:24.179
it's true.

1636
00:52:24.180 --> 00:52:26.429
I mean, the starting place

1637
00:52:26.430 --> 00:52:27.209
is honesty.

1638
00:52:27.210 --> 00:52:28.619
So it's true that

1639
00:52:29.640 --> 00:52:31.499
at least much,

1640
00:52:31.500 --> 00:52:33.449
if not most, of

1641
00:52:33.450 --> 00:52:35.180
what's called genre fiction

1642
00:52:36.720 --> 00:52:38.669
is fairly

1643
00:52:38.670 --> 00:52:40.499
cut and dry and is trying to

1644
00:52:40.500 --> 00:52:42.599
obey a lot of strict

1645
00:52:42.600 --> 00:52:43.739
conventions. And

1646
00:52:47.550 --> 00:52:49.139
there is a certain amount of

1647
00:52:49.140 --> 00:52:50.939
expectation on the reader's part

1648
00:52:50.940 --> 00:52:52.709
that has to be met, and so on and so

1649
00:52:52.710 --> 00:52:54.420
forth. That's unquestionably true.

1650
00:52:55.710 --> 00:52:58.049
But the second thing that we have to

1651
00:52:58.050 --> 00:53:00.389
state is that that's also true

1652
00:53:00.390 --> 00:53:02.309
with so-called literary

1653
00:53:02.310 --> 00:53:03.310
fiction,

1654
00:53:05.040 --> 00:53:05.939
whatever you want to call it--

1655
00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:06.940
mainstream fiction.

1656
00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:13.169
You might characterize that as a

1657
00:53:13.170 --> 00:53:14.519
genre, or you might break it down

1658
00:53:14.520 --> 00:53:16.379
into subgenres within that.

1659
00:53:17.730 --> 00:53:19.589
And there are conventions, and

1660
00:53:19.590 --> 00:53:20.590
there are rules

1661
00:53:21.540 --> 00:53:23.429
like unified point of view,

1662
00:53:23.430 --> 00:53:25.679
for example, that most writers

1663
00:53:25.680 --> 00:53:27.659
are taught to follow

1664
00:53:29.550 --> 00:53:31.049
that must be followed, or else the

1665
00:53:31.050 --> 00:53:32.999
work starts to feel like it's not

1666
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.170
what the reader is looking for.

1667
00:53:36.900 --> 00:53:38.789
I think the important difference

1668
00:53:38.790 --> 00:53:40.829
between-- there's only really

1669
00:53:40.830 --> 00:53:42.749
one important distinction that's

1670
00:53:42.750 --> 00:53:44.999
between well-written

1671
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:47.159
fiction and poorly written fiction

1672
00:53:47.160 --> 00:53:49.079
or incredibly well-written

1673
00:53:49.080 --> 00:53:50.550
fiction, well-written fiction,

1674
00:53:51.630 --> 00:53:53.219
possibly well-written fiction, and

1675
00:53:53.220 --> 00:53:54.220
terribly written fiction.

1676
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:58.949
And that is true

1677
00:53:58.950 --> 00:54:02.129
across all supposed

1678
00:54:02.130 --> 00:54:03.209
genre boundaries.

1679
00:54:03.210 --> 00:54:05.249
I mean, a beautifully

1680
00:54:05.250 --> 00:54:07.229
written science fiction novel, say,

1681
00:54:07.230 --> 00:54:09.329
like Octavia Butler or

1682
00:54:09.330 --> 00:54:10.330
Ursula K. Le Guin,

1683
00:54:11.460 --> 00:54:13.859
is just pound

1684
00:54:13.860 --> 00:54:15.179
for pound. You can match it up

1685
00:54:15.180 --> 00:54:17.369
against any other work of

1686
00:54:17.370 --> 00:54:18.370
well-written and well-imagined

1687
00:54:20.520 --> 00:54:21.520
fiction.

1688
00:54:22.230 --> 00:54:24.179
It's "ninety percent of everything

1689
00:54:24.180 --> 00:54:25.589
is crud," is what?

1690
00:54:25.590 --> 00:54:26.809
Theodore?

1691
00:54:26.810 --> 00:54:28.579
Sturgeon's law, it's called.

1692
00:54:28.580 --> 00:54:30.529
And it's true across the board.

1693
00:54:30.530 --> 00:54:32.119
And that's what you have to bear in

1694
00:54:32.120 --> 00:54:33.120
mind.

1695
00:54:33.410 --> 00:54:34.410
I think

1696
00:54:35.270 --> 00:54:37.099
the disadvantage a lot of

1697
00:54:37.100 --> 00:54:39.169
writers who work in genres are at

1698
00:54:39.170 --> 00:54:41.029
is that they, and this has been true

1699
00:54:41.030 --> 00:54:42.259
for a century.

1700
00:54:42.260 --> 00:54:43.285
They have to write really quickly.

1701
00:54:43.286 --> 00:54:44.286
In

1702
00:54:45.110 --> 00:54:46.399
the old days, if you're writing for

1703
00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:47.400
pulp magazines, you

1704
00:54:50.030 --> 00:54:52.009
got paid a penny a word or a penny

1705
00:54:52.010 --> 00:54:53.569
and a half. Maybe you made three or

1706
00:54:53.570 --> 00:54:55.939
four penny cents a word.

1707
00:54:55.940 --> 00:54:57.889
And the more you wrote, the more

1708
00:54:57.890 --> 00:54:59.419
you got paid. And the more stories

1709
00:54:59.420 --> 00:55:00.589
you got published, the more you got

1710
00:55:00.590 --> 00:55:02.509
paid. And they had to crank

1711
00:55:02.510 --> 00:55:03.379
it out.

1712
00:55:03.380 --> 00:55:05.269
And that's still true.

1713
00:55:05.270 --> 00:55:07.429
Not at that incredibly

1714
00:55:07.430 --> 00:55:09.469
inhumane pace anymore, but

1715
00:55:09.470 --> 00:55:11.389
a lot of people are under

1716
00:55:11.390 --> 00:55:13.459
contract to write two mystery novels

1717
00:55:13.460 --> 00:55:14.460
a year.

1718
00:55:15.410 --> 00:55:16.849
And so you got to go fast.

1719
00:55:16.850 --> 00:55:18.109
And it's really, I think, it's the

1720
00:55:18.110 --> 00:55:19.999
luxury of leisure,

1721
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:21.919
of being able to take time to go

1722
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:23.839
over your sentences, to

1723
00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:25.939
work, to make your characters

1724
00:55:25.940 --> 00:55:27.949
feel more real, feel better

1725
00:55:27.950 --> 00:55:29.839
developed. I mean, that is

1726
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:31.939
a luxury that all writers

1727
00:55:31.940 --> 00:55:34.309
need. And I think it's more likely

1728
00:55:34.310 --> 00:55:35.959
that writers of so-called mainstream

1729
00:55:35.960 --> 00:55:38.179
fiction get that than

1730
00:55:38.180 --> 00:55:39.979
people who are trying to make it,

1731
00:55:39.980 --> 00:55:40.819
especially people who are trying to

1732
00:55:40.820 --> 00:55:42.319
make a living as a genre fiction

1733
00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:42.919
writer.

1734
00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:44.029
The other thing about genre, too,

1735
00:55:44.030 --> 00:55:45.169
and I think this is true of your

1736
00:55:45.170 --> 00:55:46.549
work, is that it can also be

1737
00:55:46.550 --> 00:55:48.289
enabling. And you can play with

1738
00:55:48.290 --> 00:55:49.369
boundaries as much-- they can be

1739
00:55:49.370 --> 00:55:50.509
constricting, but they can also be

1740
00:55:50.510 --> 00:55:51.379
something that allows you to be-- I

1741
00:55:51.380 --> 00:55:52.129
think you do that a lot.

1742
00:55:52.130 --> 00:55:53.130
Yeah. I mean, well, that's-- even

1743
00:55:54.590 --> 00:55:56.359
some of the-- I mean, no sooner did

1744
00:55:56.360 --> 00:55:58.879
Agatha Christie basically--

1745
00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:00.859
and she didn't invent the whodunit,

1746
00:56:00.860 --> 00:56:02.959
certainly. But no

1747
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:04.669
sooner did she master it than she

1748
00:56:04.670 --> 00:56:06.139
began messing with it.

1749
00:56:06.140 --> 00:56:07.099
Right?

1750
00:56:07.100 --> 00:56:08.179
And like, oh, I'm going to have a

1751
00:56:08.180 --> 00:56:09.889
mystery where everyone did it, and

1752
00:56:09.890 --> 00:56:11.179
I'm going to have one where nobody

1753
00:56:11.180 --> 00:56:13.279
did it and play that aspect

1754
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:14.149
of play.

1755
00:56:14.150 --> 00:56:15.619
It's often solidly

1756
00:56:17.150 --> 00:56:19.129
at the center of genre writing

1757
00:56:19.130 --> 00:56:20.839
too. It doesn't necessarily

1758
00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:22.519
guarantee that you're going to break

1759
00:56:22.520 --> 00:56:24.079
out in some way.

1760
00:56:24.080 --> 00:56:26.299
But I mean, the longer genres

1761
00:56:26.300 --> 00:56:28.519
are around, the more you tend to see

1762
00:56:28.520 --> 00:56:30.589
the conventions getting messed

1763
00:56:30.590 --> 00:56:31.590
with.

1764
00:56:32.600 --> 00:56:33.409
I'm just going to keep answering till

1765
00:56:33.410 --> 00:56:34.609
you tell me to stop.

1766
00:56:34.610 --> 00:56:35.610
Oh, yeah. That's exactly--

1767
00:56:36.080 --> 00:56:37.609
Okay, let's go.

1768
00:56:37.610 --> 00:56:38.419
"What are you reading?

1769
00:56:38.420 --> 00:56:39.259
And do you have any book

1770
00:56:39.260 --> 00:56:40.386
recommendations to share?" Yes,

1771
00:56:40.387 --> 00:56:42.259
happily. When I'm on

1772
00:56:42.260 --> 00:56:43.399
a book tour is one of the times I

1773
00:56:43.400 --> 00:56:45.379
get the most reading done

1774
00:56:45.380 --> 00:56:47.059
because, at home, I work at night.

1775
00:56:47.060 --> 00:56:48.060
And

1776
00:56:49.670 --> 00:56:52.069
as my wife settles in for

1777
00:56:52.070 --> 00:56:53.959
2 hours of enjoying the

1778
00:56:53.960 --> 00:56:55.369
delicious experience of reading a

1779
00:56:55.370 --> 00:56:57.319
book in bed, I'm going off to work.

1780
00:56:57.320 --> 00:56:58.329
And thereby,

1781
00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:01.849
I ought to read

1782
00:57:01.850 --> 00:57:03.636
in the daytime, but I just can't.

1783
00:57:03.637 --> 00:57:05.239
I have too much else to do.

1784
00:57:05.240 --> 00:57:06.769
I can't. I feel like I'm cheating if

1785
00:57:06.770 --> 00:57:08.119
I take 2 hours in the middle of the

1786
00:57:08.120 --> 00:57:09.530
day, sit down, and read.

1787
00:57:11.810 --> 00:57:13.099
When I'm on book tour, I'm generally

1788
00:57:13.100 --> 00:57:14.359
not driving to work, and I'm

1789
00:57:14.360 --> 00:57:15.199
traveling a lot.

1790
00:57:15.200 --> 00:57:17.389
So I've read so far two books

1791
00:57:17.390 --> 00:57:19.009
on this tour, and they are both

1792
00:57:19.010 --> 00:57:21.499
wonderful. One is called Beetle Bone

1793
00:57:21.500 --> 00:57:23.119
by an Irish writer named Kevin

1794
00:57:23.120 --> 00:57:24.120
Barry.

1795
00:57:24.740 --> 00:57:25.759
Barry.

1796
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:26.689
B-A-R-R-Y.

1797
00:57:26.690 --> 00:57:27.690
And it's

1798
00:57:28.850 --> 00:57:29.959
a wonderful book. It's a very

1799
00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:31.819
beautifully written,

1800
00:57:31.820 --> 00:57:32.929
imaginary

1801
00:57:35.060 --> 00:57:37.489
week in the life of John Lennon

1802
00:57:37.490 --> 00:57:39.349
in 1978. So two

1803
00:57:39.350 --> 00:57:40.819
years before his death, which we

1804
00:57:40.820 --> 00:57:41.820
just observed the

1805
00:57:43.390 --> 00:57:44.390
anniversary of. And

1806
00:57:47.240 --> 00:57:48.559
I guess-- I don't know how much of

1807
00:57:48.560 --> 00:57:49.560
it's true. Apparently,

1808
00:57:50.420 --> 00:57:51.889
John Lennon, while he was still a

1809
00:57:51.890 --> 00:57:53.839
Beatle in 1969, bought

1810
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:56.359
an island off the coast of Ireland,

1811
00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:58.249
a little island in this chain of

1812
00:57:58.250 --> 00:57:59.059
islands.

1813
00:57:59.060 --> 00:58:00.919
And this part,

1814
00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:02.179
I'm not sure if it's true or not.

1815
00:58:03.500 --> 00:58:04.879
The premise of the novel is that he

1816
00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:06.949
goes looking for it like ten

1817
00:58:06.950 --> 00:58:08.449
years later when his life has

1818
00:58:08.450 --> 00:58:09.739
changed completely, and the Beatles

1819
00:58:09.740 --> 00:58:11.779
are no more. And his marriage with

1820
00:58:11.780 --> 00:58:13.879
Yoko Ono has been troubled.

1821
00:58:13.880 --> 00:58:16.579
And now, he has his little son, and

1822
00:58:16.580 --> 00:58:18.267
he's become overwhelmed by it.

1823
00:58:18.268 --> 00:58:19.879
And he's clean and sober, and he's

1824
00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:20.989
struggling with that.

1825
00:58:20.990 --> 00:58:21.990
And he just goes

1826
00:58:23.420 --> 00:58:25.339
off on a runner

1827
00:58:25.340 --> 00:58:27.139
and goes to Ireland to try to find

1828
00:58:27.140 --> 00:58:28.519
this island. And he takes up with

1829
00:58:28.520 --> 00:58:30.349
this driver, who's an Irishman from

1830
00:58:30.350 --> 00:58:31.519
County Mayo, because that's where

1831
00:58:31.520 --> 00:58:32.520
the island is.

1832
00:58:34.670 --> 00:58:35.689
It's really funny.

1833
00:58:35.690 --> 00:58:37.519
And he writes in the point of view

1834
00:58:37.520 --> 00:58:38.779
of John Lennon. You totally

1835
00:58:38.780 --> 00:58:40.609
believe-- you buy it completely.

1836
00:58:40.610 --> 00:58:41.610
I loved it.

1837
00:58:42.710 --> 00:58:44.539
And then the second book

1838
00:58:44.540 --> 00:58:46.819
was SPQR by Mary Beard,

1839
00:58:46.820 --> 00:58:48.259
which is a history of the Roman

1840
00:58:48.260 --> 00:58:49.639
Empire. And even though it's a

1841
00:58:49.640 --> 00:58:50.779
history of the Roman Empire, it's

1842
00:58:50.780 --> 00:58:52.040
still not that long.

1843
00:58:54.200 --> 00:58:55.729
And she's such a wonderful writer.

1844
00:58:55.730 --> 00:58:57.500
She's so pithy and

1845
00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:00.499
so knowledgeable. And you feel like

1846
00:59:00.500 --> 00:59:03.019
you're taking the most fantastic

1847
00:59:03.020 --> 00:59:04.909
university class from the

1848
00:59:04.910 --> 00:59:07.189
greatest Cambridge

1849
00:59:07.190 --> 00:59:09.479
don ever.

1850
00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:10.480
It's

1851
00:59:11.390 --> 00:59:13.549
engaging. She does it through

1852
00:59:13.550 --> 00:59:15.319
retelling stories and incidents, but

1853
00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:17.039
she's super skeptical to it.

1854
00:59:17.040 --> 00:59:18.079
She challenges a lot of the

1855
00:59:18.080 --> 00:59:19.519
conventional wisdom about how we

1856
00:59:19.520 --> 00:59:21.049
think about Rome and the Romans.

1857
00:59:21.050 --> 00:59:22.050
Anyway,

1858
00:59:22.940 --> 00:59:23.809
I loved it.

1859
00:59:23.810 --> 00:59:24.810
So that's

1860
00:59:26.240 --> 00:59:27.240
that. Let's

1861
00:59:28.700 --> 00:59:29.700
see.

1862
00:59:32.380 --> 00:59:34.099
Oh, no, he skipped my question.

1863
00:59:40.210 --> 00:59:41.479
Oh, I like this one because it's so

1864
00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:42.480
nerdy.

1865
00:59:43.460 --> 00:59:44.869
"I've always been fascinated by the

1866
00:59:44.870 --> 00:59:46.879
descriptions of how Henry Kuttner

1867
00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:48.709
and C.L. Moore would

1868
00:59:48.710 --> 00:59:50.569
work on the same stories so

1869
00:59:50.570 --> 00:59:51.570
seamlessly." You

1870
00:59:54.080 --> 00:59:55.879
all know who those two are, right?

1871
00:59:55.880 --> 00:59:57.393
No, just kidding.

1872
00:59:57.394 --> 00:59:59.209
Because they're sadly

1873
00:59:59.210 --> 01:00:00.949
forgotten, wonderful science fiction

1874
01:00:00.950 --> 01:00:02.899
writers who were husband

1875
01:00:02.900 --> 01:00:04.549
and wife and did work on each

1876
01:00:04.550 --> 01:00:06.109
other's work, apparently, really

1877
01:00:06.110 --> 01:00:07.110
indiscriminately with-- sometimes

1878
01:00:08.900 --> 01:00:10.069
he would write more of something,

1879
01:00:10.070 --> 01:00:10.934
and her name would go on.

1880
01:00:10.935 --> 01:00:12.769
And sometimes, she would write

1881
01:00:12.770 --> 01:00:13.669
more of something, and his name

1882
01:00:13.670 --> 01:00:14.670
would go on it.

1883
01:00:15.230 --> 01:00:16.230
I don't know if they ever-- yes,

1884
01:00:17.600 --> 01:00:19.129
they did publish something together

1885
01:00:19.130 --> 01:00:20.119
under both their names, too.

1886
01:00:20.120 --> 01:00:22.249
But the question is, "As a spouse

1887
01:00:22.250 --> 01:00:24.109
of a fellow author, how did

1888
01:00:24.110 --> 01:00:25.519
the two of you work together, and

1889
01:00:25.520 --> 01:00:27.229
have you contemplated any true

1890
01:00:27.230 --> 01:00:28.249
collaborations?"

1891
01:00:29.450 --> 01:00:30.559
I mean, apart from our four

1892
01:00:30.560 --> 01:00:31.560
children.

1893
01:00:34.170 --> 01:00:36.149
Those are entirely collaborative

1894
01:00:36.150 --> 01:00:37.150
efforts.

1895
01:00:38.590 --> 01:00:40.469
Yeah, I

1896
01:00:40.470 --> 01:00:42.429
mean, but

1897
01:00:42.430 --> 01:00:44.399
we've always collaborated

1898
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:45.690
since she started writing,

1899
01:00:47.100 --> 01:00:48.839
which she started out as-- when I

1900
01:00:48.840 --> 01:00:50.579
first met her, she was just

1901
01:00:50.580 --> 01:00:53.189
graduated from Harvard Law School

1902
01:00:53.190 --> 01:00:55.019
in the same class as our

1903
01:00:56.220 --> 01:00:57.719
sadly outgoing president.

1904
01:01:00.540 --> 01:01:02.309
Remarkably, I discovered this in

1905
01:01:02.310 --> 01:01:04.169
2008 when we were working very

1906
01:01:04.170 --> 01:01:05.591
hard on that first Obama campaign,

1907
01:01:05.592 --> 01:01:07.439
and I met

1908
01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:09.479
a lot of that class from Harvard

1909
01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:10.679
Law School.

1910
01:01:10.680 --> 01:01:12.569
By some strange chance, my wife

1911
01:01:12.570 --> 01:01:13.979
appears to have been the only person

1912
01:01:13.980 --> 01:01:15.509
who is not Barack Obama's best

1913
01:01:15.510 --> 01:01:16.510
friend in law school.

1914
01:01:19.590 --> 01:01:21.749
In any case, she was a federal

1915
01:01:21.750 --> 01:01:22.800
public defender for

1916
01:01:24.060 --> 01:01:25.559
almost four years, and then she

1917
01:01:25.560 --> 01:01:26.699
started writing in. From that

1918
01:01:26.700 --> 01:01:28.559
moment, we

1919
01:01:28.560 --> 01:01:30.659
collaborated in every

1920
01:01:30.660 --> 01:01:32.249
way except actually writing

1921
01:01:32.250 --> 01:01:33.250
together.

1922
01:01:34.140 --> 01:01:35.729
And this continues to be true from

1923
01:01:35.730 --> 01:01:37.259
the moment one or the other starts

1924
01:01:37.260 --> 01:01:39.599
to think about what

1925
01:01:39.600 --> 01:01:40.830
we might be writing next.

1926
01:01:44.190 --> 01:01:45.569
We use each other as sounding

1927
01:01:45.570 --> 01:01:47.069
boards, bouncing the idea off,

1928
01:01:47.070 --> 01:01:49.289
giving each other encouragement,

1929
01:01:49.290 --> 01:01:51.179
trying to create space for the

1930
01:01:51.180 --> 01:01:53.189
other to work, not just during

1931
01:01:53.190 --> 01:01:54.239
our normal work periods.

1932
01:01:54.240 --> 01:01:55.409
She works in the morning. I work at

1933
01:01:55.410 --> 01:01:57.479
night. But encouraging

1934
01:01:57.480 --> 01:01:59.369
each other to go off

1935
01:01:59.370 --> 01:02:01.979
to borrow someone's -

1936
01:02:01.980 --> 01:02:02.980
we have friends who have

1937
01:02:03.810 --> 01:02:04.919
borrowable cabins in various

1938
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:06.389
beautiful places - and go to one of

1939
01:02:06.390 --> 01:02:08.219
those. Or even check into

1940
01:02:08.220 --> 01:02:09.339
a hotel room. I've done that.

1941
01:02:09.340 --> 01:02:10.289
I don't know if she's ever done

1942
01:02:10.290 --> 01:02:11.290
that. Or a residency

1943
01:02:12.510 --> 01:02:13.717
program like the MacDowell Colony,

1944
01:02:15.900 --> 01:02:17.819
trying to help create space to

1945
01:02:17.820 --> 01:02:18.869
get the work done.

1946
01:02:18.870 --> 01:02:20.939
Reading each other's drafts, editing

1947
01:02:20.940 --> 01:02:21.940
each other's drafts,

1948
01:02:23.340 --> 01:02:24.929
reading and editing subsequent

1949
01:02:24.930 --> 01:02:26.909
drafts, up all the way through that

1950
01:02:26.910 --> 01:02:28.469
whole process.

1951
01:02:28.470 --> 01:02:30.539
So that by the end of a book, each

1952
01:02:30.540 --> 01:02:31.879
of us probably has read the other's

1953
01:02:31.880 --> 01:02:33.719
book six,

1954
01:02:33.720 --> 01:02:34.829
seven, eight times.

1955
01:02:36.570 --> 01:02:38.429
And then holding hands through the

1956
01:02:38.430 --> 01:02:40.289
publication process, which

1957
01:02:40.290 --> 01:02:41.400
can be so terrifying.

1958
01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:43.960
And that's

1959
01:02:45.180 --> 01:02:46.079
been the nature of our

1960
01:02:46.080 --> 01:02:47.939
collaboration. But, in the past

1961
01:02:47.940 --> 01:02:49.349
few years, we've actually started

1962
01:02:49.350 --> 01:02:51.029
directly collaborating, and it's

1963
01:02:51.030 --> 01:02:53.639
been with TV projects.

1964
01:02:53.640 --> 01:02:54.959
We worked on this series that we

1965
01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:56.939
hoped would go to HBO

1966
01:02:56.940 --> 01:02:59.529
that did not go called Hobgoblin,

1967
01:02:59.530 --> 01:03:00.869
and we wrote that together.

1968
01:03:00.870 --> 01:03:02.819
And now, we're working on another TV

1969
01:03:02.820 --> 01:03:04.349
project at Netflix.

1970
01:03:04.350 --> 01:03:05.350
And we've

1971
01:03:06.270 --> 01:03:07.469
evolved this method that seems to

1972
01:03:07.470 --> 01:03:09.119
work really well for us in that

1973
01:03:09.120 --> 01:03:10.589
regard, which is that we outline

1974
01:03:10.590 --> 01:03:11.519
together.

1975
01:03:11.520 --> 01:03:12.520
They call it beating

1976
01:03:13.470 --> 01:03:14.470
out the story. We

1977
01:03:15.420 --> 01:03:17.249
figure out what should happen and in

1978
01:03:17.250 --> 01:03:18.749
what order. And we try to get as

1979
01:03:18.750 --> 01:03:20.129
detailed as we can about that

1980
01:03:20.130 --> 01:03:22.019
together. And then she

1981
01:03:22.020 --> 01:03:23.129
takes the outline and writes the

1982
01:03:23.130 --> 01:03:25.259
first draft, and then I take

1983
01:03:25.260 --> 01:03:27.449
that draft and rewrite it.

1984
01:03:27.450 --> 01:03:28.799
It's good method. It seems to work

1985
01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:29.800
well.

1986
01:03:30.720 --> 01:03:32.669
There's a lot of feeling

1987
01:03:32.670 --> 01:03:34.469
and passion in our marriage, and

1988
01:03:34.470 --> 01:03:35.819
that frequently comes out in the

1989
01:03:35.820 --> 01:03:36.719
form of arguments.

1990
01:03:36.720 --> 01:03:38.609
And there's arguments and yelling

1991
01:03:38.610 --> 01:03:39.809
that take place when we're not

1992
01:03:39.810 --> 01:03:41.549
collaborating that are of an

1993
01:03:41.550 --> 01:03:42.959
entirely different character than

1994
01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:44.129
the arguments that take place when

1995
01:03:44.130 --> 01:03:46.469
we are collaborating. And we argue

1996
01:03:46.470 --> 01:03:48.029
just as much when we're

1997
01:03:48.030 --> 01:03:49.649
collaborating as we do when we're

1998
01:03:49.650 --> 01:03:50.650
not.

1999
01:03:51.030 --> 01:03:52.030
But it's

2000
01:03:55.140 --> 01:03:57.029
strange how-- it must be

2001
01:03:57.030 --> 01:03:58.229
that there doesn't feel like there's

2002
01:03:58.230 --> 01:03:59.155
something deep and fundamental, some

2003
01:03:59.156 --> 01:04:01.229
kind of like

2004
01:04:01.230 --> 01:04:03.119
early childhood shame at

2005
01:04:03.120 --> 01:04:05.129
stake or something.

2006
01:04:05.130 --> 01:04:07.019
Because we will argue and argue and

2007
01:04:07.020 --> 01:04:07.799
argue and argue.

2008
01:04:07.800 --> 01:04:09.299
And then, we're like, okay, great.

2009
01:04:09.300 --> 01:04:11.249
That's it. Like that, and just

2010
01:04:11.250 --> 01:04:14.129
keep writing and go on with it.

2011
01:04:14.130 --> 01:04:17.039
It doesn't ever get personal at all.

2012
01:04:17.040 --> 01:04:18.299
But I think it can be terrifying

2013
01:04:18.300 --> 01:04:19.519
because there was a brief period

2014
01:04:19.520 --> 01:04:21.449
when we were collaborating with

2015
01:04:21.450 --> 01:04:23.426
a third person on a musical.

2016
01:04:24.690 --> 01:04:26.579
We were writing the book for

2017
01:04:26.580 --> 01:04:27.629
this musical.

2018
01:04:27.630 --> 01:04:29.789
I think it still might be happening,

2019
01:04:29.790 --> 01:04:30.929
but we're no longer involved with

2020
01:04:30.930 --> 01:04:32.129
it.

2021
01:04:32.130 --> 01:04:33.959
And he was

2022
01:04:33.960 --> 01:04:35.789
so afraid when

2023
01:04:35.790 --> 01:04:36.809
we started fighting.

2024
01:04:36.810 --> 01:04:38.639
He's younger, a good

2025
01:04:38.640 --> 01:04:39.424
20 years younger than us.

2026
01:04:39.425 --> 01:04:40.859
And he was like, "Mom and dad are

2027
01:04:40.860 --> 01:04:43.709
fighting." And he was so--

2028
01:04:43.710 --> 01:04:45.389
he would get really quiet and stuff,

2029
01:04:45.390 --> 01:04:46.349
and then he got used to it.

2030
01:04:46.350 --> 01:04:47.579
And, actually, by the end, he was

2031
01:04:47.580 --> 01:04:48.580
right in there.

2032
01:04:49.260 --> 01:04:51.629
I actually really appreciated

2033
01:04:51.630 --> 01:04:53.219
the comments you made.

2034
01:04:53.220 --> 01:04:54.299
You published a few chapters from

2035
01:04:54.300 --> 01:04:55.739
Fountain City, which was your

2036
01:04:55.740 --> 01:04:57.689
unfinished novel in McSweeney's, and

2037
01:04:57.690 --> 01:04:59.489
you kind of wrote about what you

2038
01:04:59.490 --> 01:05:01.349
took from not finishing.

2039
01:05:01.350 --> 01:05:02.519
And your main-- your final

2040
01:05:02.520 --> 01:05:03.659
conclusion was that you didn't have

2041
01:05:03.660 --> 01:05:04.919
someone like your wife to read it.

2042
01:05:04.920 --> 01:05:06.359
Yeah, it actually wasn't someone

2043
01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:07.559
like my wife. It was my wife.

2044
01:05:07.560 --> 01:05:08.560
Yeah.

2045
01:05:09.450 --> 01:05:10.919
Because there's nobody like my wife.

2046
01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:12.749
So if that was-- if I was

2047
01:05:12.750 --> 01:05:13.979
trying to find another one, I would

2048
01:05:13.980 --> 01:05:14.980
be in trouble.

2049
01:05:17.910 --> 01:05:18.910
Yeah. I mean,

2050
01:05:20.100 --> 01:05:22.529
you need someone.

2051
01:05:22.530 --> 01:05:24.449
Every writer needs at least

2052
01:05:24.450 --> 01:05:27.059
one person who will be completely

2053
01:05:27.060 --> 01:05:28.889
honest with them about the

2054
01:05:28.890 --> 01:05:29.890
work.

2055
01:05:31.830 --> 01:05:33.749
A reader who is less than completely

2056
01:05:33.750 --> 01:05:35.849
honest is utterly useless.

2057
01:05:35.850 --> 01:05:37.319
And so, you need someone who's not

2058
01:05:37.320 --> 01:05:39.209
afraid to say,

2059
01:05:39.210 --> 01:05:41.039
"This doesn't work," or "This part's

2060
01:05:41.040 --> 01:05:42.040
not working," or

2061
01:05:43.380 --> 01:05:45.209
"You need to start again."

2062
01:05:45.210 --> 01:05:47.129
I mean, sometimes you have to

2063
01:05:47.130 --> 01:05:49.529
say really hard things

2064
01:05:49.530 --> 01:05:51.119
because that's how it goes.

2065
01:05:51.120 --> 01:05:53.309
And many things need to be started

2066
01:05:53.310 --> 01:05:54.310
again

2067
01:05:55.350 --> 01:05:57.269
or need complete retooling or

2068
01:05:57.270 --> 01:05:58.169
need overhauling.

2069
01:05:58.170 --> 01:05:59.190
And it's

2070
01:06:00.780 --> 01:06:03.539
initially almost impossible for

2071
01:06:03.540 --> 01:06:05.549
that person to be the writer, him

2072
01:06:05.550 --> 01:06:06.550
or herself.

2073
01:06:07.770 --> 01:06:10.409
There's a part of you that knows it,

2074
01:06:10.410 --> 01:06:11.971
that knows that this is not working,

2075
01:06:11.972 --> 01:06:13.529
that part's not working, or this

2076
01:06:13.530 --> 01:06:14.879
isn't working, or whatever it is.

2077
01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:16.289
There is a part of you that knows

2078
01:06:16.290 --> 01:06:18.149
that and needs to hear it

2079
01:06:18.150 --> 01:06:19.169
from someone else.

2080
01:06:19.170 --> 01:06:21.239
And as soon as you do hear it, you

2081
01:06:21.240 --> 01:06:22.769
have that sense of like you might--

2082
01:06:22.770 --> 01:06:23.999
there's going to be the initial,

2083
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:25.289
like, you're just an idiot.

2084
01:06:25.290 --> 01:06:26.290
That's why you--

2085
01:06:27.330 --> 01:06:28.330
but then, it

2086
01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:31.109
doesn't take very long before you're

2087
01:06:31.110 --> 01:06:33.509
saying, "Oh my god, you're right.

2088
01:06:33.510 --> 01:06:34.499
What do I do?

2089
01:06:34.500 --> 01:06:35.500
I have to start over."

2090
01:06:36.450 --> 01:06:37.450
And

2091
01:06:40.050 --> 01:06:41.270
I'm fortunate, and I think Ayelet is

2092
01:06:41.271 --> 01:06:42.659
fortunate too, from her point of

2093
01:06:42.660 --> 01:06:44.010
view, that we are each capable of

2094
01:06:45.180 --> 01:06:46.530
being that person for the other one.

2095
01:06:47.790 --> 01:06:49.709
But it's hard to work out

2096
01:06:49.710 --> 01:06:50.759
the right way to do it.

2097
01:06:50.760 --> 01:06:51.760
And

2098
01:06:52.770 --> 01:06:53.879
you don't want to waste time.

2099
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:55.259
You don't want to waste the writer's

2100
01:06:55.260 --> 01:06:56.459
time, and you don't want to waste

2101
01:06:56.460 --> 01:06:57.509
your own time. So there's a

2102
01:06:57.510 --> 01:06:59.699
temptation to be direct and be

2103
01:06:59.700 --> 01:07:01.529
just kind of disposed with the

2104
01:07:01.530 --> 01:07:03.419
amenities and just get right down to

2105
01:07:03.420 --> 01:07:05.519
it. That's not a good idea.

2106
01:07:05.520 --> 01:07:07.619
You always

2107
01:07:07.620 --> 01:07:08.620
have to start with the-- you

2108
01:07:09.720 --> 01:07:10.872
have to do the phrase sandwich.

2109
01:07:11.910 --> 01:07:13.150
I know the phrase sandwich.

2110
01:07:14.730 --> 01:07:16.096
You start with a phrase.

2111
01:07:16.097 --> 01:07:17.315
And genuinely, but like sincerely. You can't blow sunshine

2112
01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:18.839
up the other person's ass.

2113
01:07:18.840 --> 01:07:20.729
You have to say things you really

2114
01:07:20.730 --> 01:07:22.137
do-- and if there's not that much,

2115
01:07:22.138 --> 01:07:24.209
just do what you can

2116
01:07:24.210 --> 01:07:25.859
and start with that.

2117
01:07:25.860 --> 01:07:27.329
Then, you get into the criticism,

2118
01:07:27.330 --> 01:07:29.009
and then don't forget to go back and

2119
01:07:29.010 --> 01:07:30.569
say "but."

2120
01:07:30.570 --> 01:07:31.649
We always joke that that's like an

2121
01:07:31.650 --> 01:07:32.789
insult sandwich, though, because the

2122
01:07:32.790 --> 01:07:33.839
praise is on the outside.

2123
01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:35.249
Right? I mean, it's like being the

2124
01:07:35.250 --> 01:07:36.250
praises--

2125
01:07:36.900 --> 01:07:38.219
You're right. It's a criticism

2126
01:07:38.220 --> 01:07:39.809
sandwich. I never noticed that.

2127
01:07:42.990 --> 01:07:44.547
A praise sandwich would be useless.

2128
01:07:45.660 --> 01:07:47.669
Insult, praise, insult

2129
01:07:47.670 --> 01:07:48.309
would be that.

2130
01:07:48.310 --> 01:07:49.829
Right, right.

2131
01:07:49.830 --> 01:07:50.830
That's a Primantis praise

2132
01:07:51.810 --> 01:07:52.810
sandwich.

2133
01:07:59.410 --> 01:08:01.059
"What's the worst thing you ever

2134
01:08:01.060 --> 01:08:02.060
wrote?"

2135
01:08:04.010 --> 01:08:05.669
There are so many candidates.

2136
01:08:05.670 --> 01:08:06.870
There's so many realms.

2137
01:08:10.750 --> 01:08:12.879
Well, this actually is a Pittsburgh

2138
01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:13.880
story.

2139
01:08:15.940 --> 01:08:17.799
When I was a freshman at

2140
01:08:17.800 --> 01:08:19.688
Carnegie Mellon University, I

2141
01:08:19.689 --> 01:08:20.689
wrote poetry.

2142
01:08:22.840 --> 01:08:24.459
I wrote poetry at Pitt, too, but it

2143
01:08:24.460 --> 01:08:26.289
got a little better.

2144
01:08:26.290 --> 01:08:28.209
I had wonderful teachers like

2145
01:08:28.210 --> 01:08:29.210
Ed

2146
01:08:30.069 --> 01:08:31.269
Ochester and Eve Shelnutt, who

2147
01:08:31.270 --> 01:08:32.799
helped me make my poetry a little

2148
01:08:32.800 --> 01:08:34.419
less bad.

2149
01:08:34.420 --> 01:08:36.249
But at Carnegie Mellon, I

2150
01:08:36.250 --> 01:08:37.209
was on my own.

2151
01:08:37.210 --> 01:08:38.949
And not only was I writing poetry,

2152
01:08:38.950 --> 01:08:40.359
but it was love poetry

2153
01:08:41.920 --> 01:08:43.809
to the girl

2154
01:08:43.810 --> 01:08:45.189
that I loved. And

2155
01:08:46.210 --> 01:08:47.210
it was,

2156
01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:49.640
I mean,

2157
01:08:50.470 --> 01:08:52.029
I hate to even think about it.

2158
01:08:53.470 --> 01:08:54.470
And

2159
01:08:57.130 --> 01:08:59.049
I was influenced by,

2160
01:08:59.050 --> 01:09:00.879
I don't know, like Henry Miller

2161
01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:01.880
and Donovan.

2162
01:09:08.870 --> 01:09:11.599
And I submitted this poetry

2163
01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:13.728
in a red Duo Tang

2164
01:09:13.729 --> 01:09:15.709
folder to

2165
01:09:15.710 --> 01:09:17.419
the Carnegie Mellon Literary

2166
01:09:17.420 --> 01:09:19.068
Quarterly, which I don't remember

2167
01:09:19.069 --> 01:09:20.069
its name.

2168
01:09:20.960 --> 01:09:22.159
Anyone?

2169
01:09:22.160 --> 01:09:23.258
Anyway, no CMU literators here

2170
01:09:24.920 --> 01:09:25.920
tonight.

2171
01:09:27.229 --> 01:09:28.470
And I never heard anything.

2172
01:09:29.630 --> 01:09:32.509
And one night,

2173
01:09:32.510 --> 01:09:33.949
toward the end of my freshman year,

2174
01:09:33.950 --> 01:09:35.869
I was with a friend who had a radio

2175
01:09:35.870 --> 01:09:37.258
slot on WRCT.

2176
01:09:37.259 --> 01:09:39.079
A really late

2177
01:09:39.080 --> 01:09:41.059
3:00 in the morning kind of slot,

2178
01:09:41.060 --> 01:09:42.949
and nobody was around

2179
01:09:42.950 --> 01:09:44.599
the building and the radio station.

2180
01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:45.379
I don't know if that's still the

2181
01:09:45.380 --> 01:09:46.459
case, but at the time, it was in the

2182
01:09:46.460 --> 01:09:48.389
same building as the offices of

2183
01:09:48.390 --> 01:09:50.209
the literary magazine.

2184
01:09:50.210 --> 01:09:52.099
And somehow or other,

2185
01:09:52.100 --> 01:09:54.379
I obtained a key

2186
01:09:54.380 --> 01:09:56.689
to the door of the

2187
01:09:56.690 --> 01:09:58.189
literary magazine office.

2188
01:09:58.190 --> 01:10:00.019
And I broke in

2189
01:10:00.020 --> 01:10:01.309
with a key, though I didn't break

2190
01:10:01.310 --> 01:10:02.310
anything.

2191
01:10:02.930 --> 01:10:04.009
I don't think that's a legal

2192
01:10:04.010 --> 01:10:04.789
defense, though.

2193
01:10:04.790 --> 01:10:06.799
And I

2194
01:10:06.800 --> 01:10:08.479
went into the file cabinet.

2195
01:10:08.480 --> 01:10:10.339
And I found my file, and

2196
01:10:10.340 --> 01:10:12.199
it was in the reject

2197
01:10:12.200 --> 01:10:14.179
section, which already was

2198
01:10:14.180 --> 01:10:15.019
not a good thing.

2199
01:10:15.020 --> 01:10:16.370
And then I opened it up and

2200
01:10:17.540 --> 01:10:20.119
went, "Maybe I'll get some helpful

2201
01:10:20.120 --> 01:10:21.829
criticism and some words of

2202
01:10:21.830 --> 01:10:23.329
encouragement. And I'm sure they

2203
01:10:23.330 --> 01:10:25.309
were just playing." And whoever had

2204
01:10:25.310 --> 01:10:26.989
reviewed it for publication have

2205
01:10:26.990 --> 01:10:29.179
just been merciless

2206
01:10:29.180 --> 01:10:31.129
with like cartoons

2207
01:10:31.130 --> 01:10:33.709
of someone vomiting and

2208
01:10:33.710 --> 01:10:34.710
just--

2209
01:10:35.540 --> 01:10:35.993
Not even words.

2210
01:10:35.994 --> 01:10:37.939
Oh, no, I

2211
01:10:37.940 --> 01:10:39.530
stopped reading here.

2212
01:10:40.610 --> 01:10:42.379
I mean, like the worst, most naked--

2213
01:10:42.380 --> 01:10:44.059
because they didn't plan on showing

2214
01:10:44.060 --> 01:10:45.379
it to me. So they could be

2215
01:10:45.380 --> 01:10:46.549
completely honest.

2216
01:10:46.550 --> 01:10:48.469
Like I'm saying, it's so fortunate.

2217
01:10:48.470 --> 01:10:50.779
And I was just so

2218
01:10:50.780 --> 01:10:52.669
shamed and humiliated, and then

2219
01:10:52.670 --> 01:10:54.649
I carefully just, like, put it back

2220
01:10:54.650 --> 01:10:55.650
in.

2221
01:10:56.300 --> 01:10:58.249
And I backed out of there

2222
01:10:58.250 --> 01:11:00.079
and locked the door and

2223
01:11:00.080 --> 01:11:02.029
never, ever wanted

2224
01:11:02.030 --> 01:11:03.395
to look at anyone's--

2225
01:11:04.550 --> 01:11:06.409
I never repeated that experiment

2226
01:11:06.410 --> 01:11:08.179
ever again because it was such a

2227
01:11:08.180 --> 01:11:09.769
traumatic experience. But I think

2228
01:11:09.770 --> 01:11:11.779
those poems were-- I'd like to think

2229
01:11:11.780 --> 01:11:12.979
that was probably the worst thing I

2230
01:11:12.980 --> 01:11:13.699
ever wrote.

2231
01:11:13.700 --> 01:11:15.349
All right. Well, we have, I think--

2232
01:11:15.350 --> 01:11:16.759
do you want to do one more really

2233
01:11:16.760 --> 01:11:17.309
short one?

2234
01:11:17.310 --> 01:11:18.528
Sure.

2235
01:11:18.529 --> 01:11:19.519
And then, we'll wrap up so you can

2236
01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:21.379
go sign books and things

2237
01:11:21.380 --> 01:11:22.082
like that. All right.

2238
01:11:22.083 --> 01:11:24.319
There haven't been any hostile

2239
01:11:24.320 --> 01:11:25.320
ones yet.

2240
01:11:26.330 --> 01:11:27.499
You're kind of disappointed.

2241
01:11:28.610 --> 01:11:29.756
In New York, there were hostile

2242
01:11:29.757 --> 01:11:30.757
ones.

2243
01:11:32.060 --> 01:11:33.679
I'm just saying.

2244
01:11:33.680 --> 01:11:35.020
Okay. Let me try to answer this one.

2245
01:11:36.140 --> 01:11:37.789
"In this day and age of great

2246
01:11:37.790 --> 01:11:39.050
division socially,

2247
01:11:40.280 --> 01:11:42.169
how would you advise people who

2248
01:11:42.170 --> 01:11:44.059
do not agree to have

2249
01:11:44.060 --> 01:11:46.039
a meaningful conversation

2250
01:11:46.040 --> 01:11:47.330
that does not turn sour?"

2251
01:11:49.962 --> 01:11:50.939
Short. Short. It's gotta be short.

2252
01:11:50.940 --> 01:11:51.940
Yes, short.

2253
01:11:55.890 --> 01:11:56.970
It's on you

2254
01:11:58.260 --> 01:12:00.509
to remember that you're wrong

2255
01:12:00.510 --> 01:12:01.510
too.

2256
01:12:01.950 --> 01:12:04.079
And that being

2257
01:12:04.080 --> 01:12:05.579
right, even if you're right about

2258
01:12:05.580 --> 01:12:07.259
this particular thing, there's

2259
01:12:07.260 --> 01:12:08.434
something else you're wrong about.

2260
01:12:09.750 --> 01:12:11.129
Or you have been wrong about in the

2261
01:12:11.130 --> 01:12:12.959
past at least once.

2262
01:12:12.960 --> 01:12:14.250
And that

2263
01:12:16.230 --> 01:12:17.230
being right

2264
01:12:18.240 --> 01:12:20.083
doesn't get you anything.

2265
01:12:20.084 --> 01:12:21.084
When

2266
01:12:22.560 --> 01:12:24.029
you're in that situation where you

2267
01:12:24.030 --> 01:12:25.030
can't come to terms-- when

2268
01:12:26.370 --> 01:12:27.689
you think your point of view is the

2269
01:12:27.690 --> 01:12:28.739
right one and the other person

2270
01:12:28.740 --> 01:12:30.039
thinks their point of view is the

2271
01:12:30.040 --> 01:12:31.139
right one.

2272
01:12:31.140 --> 01:12:33.209
I think what I try to do is

2273
01:12:33.210 --> 01:12:34.679
put myself in the other person's

2274
01:12:34.680 --> 01:12:36.599
shoes and try to imagine

2275
01:12:36.600 --> 01:12:38.879
why it-- not to justify

2276
01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:40.739
it, not to excuse it, not to

2277
01:12:40.740 --> 01:12:42.569
agree with it, or even accept

2278
01:12:42.570 --> 01:12:44.699
it, but to at least try to see

2279
01:12:44.700 --> 01:12:46.589
what kind of underlying thing

2280
01:12:46.590 --> 01:12:48.959
there might be and possibly

2281
01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:50.939
try to shift the topic

2282
01:12:50.940 --> 01:12:52.259
onto that in a way that's not

2283
01:12:52.260 --> 01:12:53.039
embarrassing, though.

2284
01:12:53.040 --> 01:12:54.869
Like in a way that's, maybe we

2285
01:12:54.870 --> 01:12:56.669
can talk, or we could drop the

2286
01:12:56.670 --> 01:12:58.329
political facade here.

2287
01:12:58.330 --> 01:13:00.449
And let me ask you what happened

2288
01:13:00.450 --> 01:13:02.369
to you and maybe get them

2289
01:13:02.370 --> 01:13:03.179
to tell you a story.

2290
01:13:03.180 --> 01:13:04.619
Something like that. I mean,

2291
01:13:04.620 --> 01:13:05.969
sometimes, when I'm in that

2292
01:13:05.970 --> 01:13:07.409
sometimes awkward, uncomfortable

2293
01:13:07.410 --> 01:13:08.698
situation, I have two impulses.

2294
01:13:08.699 --> 01:13:10.679
And one is to just sort of

2295
01:13:10.680 --> 01:13:12.569
get really quiet and

2296
01:13:12.570 --> 01:13:14.393
not-- when I hear someone starting

2297
01:13:14.394 --> 01:13:16.619
to say something that I'm worrying

2298
01:13:16.620 --> 01:13:17.941
the way the direction of the

2299
01:13:17.942 --> 01:13:18.942
conversation is going,

2300
01:13:19.830 --> 01:13:22.229
sometimes I have the impulse to just

2301
01:13:22.230 --> 01:13:24.869
kind of clam up and turn into

2302
01:13:24.870 --> 01:13:26.909
an equivalent of a Scotch tape

2303
01:13:26.910 --> 01:13:27.910
dispenser.

2304
01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:30.509
Just sitting there minding his own

2305
01:13:30.510 --> 01:13:33.179
business. But other times, I'll

2306
01:13:33.180 --> 01:13:34.709
have the impulse to just try to get

2307
01:13:34.710 --> 01:13:36.629
him off what I feel

2308
01:13:36.630 --> 01:13:37.829
like I'm hearing, which is a bunch

2309
01:13:37.830 --> 01:13:39.209
of what other people have said

2310
01:13:39.210 --> 01:13:40.350
that's being regurgitated.

2311
01:13:42.090 --> 01:13:43.199
Not personal questions like

2312
01:13:43.200 --> 01:13:44.969
embarrassing personal questions, but

2313
01:13:44.970 --> 01:13:47.189
tell me about your father

2314
01:13:47.190 --> 01:13:48.079
or something like that.

2315
01:13:48.080 --> 01:13:49.949
Like, tell me something about your

2316
01:13:49.950 --> 01:13:52.259
life that you could express

2317
01:13:52.260 --> 01:13:53.550
this, maybe in a way, it's

2318
01:13:54.660 --> 01:13:55.660
not so nasty

2319
01:13:58.200 --> 01:14:00.179
or not so freighted or just not

2320
01:14:00.180 --> 01:14:02.129
you regurgitating what you've

2321
01:14:02.130 --> 01:14:04.049
heard elsewhere on TV

2322
01:14:04.050 --> 01:14:05.939
networks whose name is a kind

2323
01:14:05.940 --> 01:14:07.590
of small predator animal.

2324
01:14:11.670 --> 01:14:12.780
Well, also an enigma.

2325
01:14:12.781 --> 01:14:13.781
[crosstalk] Who knows what that means.

2326
01:14:14.690 --> 01:14:15.690
Yes, the enigma of all time.

2327
01:14:19.215 --> 01:14:19.949
Well, thank you, Michael Chabon. Thank you so much for joining us.

2328
01:14:19.950 --> 01:14:20.950
Thank you.

2329
01:14:30.189 --> 01:14:31.089
You've been listening to an interview

2330
01:14:31.090 --> 01:14:32.889
with Michael Chabon, recorded live

2331
01:14:32.890 --> 01:14:34.029
at the Carnegie Music Hall in

2332
01:14:34.030 --> 01:14:36.039
Pittsburgh on December 9th.

2333
01:14:36.040 --> 01:14:37.359
This event was made possible by

2334
01:14:37.360 --> 01:14:38.829
generous contributions from the

2335
01:14:38.830 --> 01:14:40.719
Pennsylvania Humanities Council, the

2336
01:14:40.720 --> 01:14:41.739
Dietrich School of Arts and

2337
01:14:41.740 --> 01:14:43.629
Sciences, the Department of English,

2338
01:14:43.630 --> 01:14:45.489
and the Humanities Center at Pitt,

2339
01:14:45.490 --> 01:14:46.899
as well as the Provost Year of

2340
01:14:46.900 --> 01:14:49.089
Humanities in the University.

2341
01:14:49.090 --> 01:14:50.439
Stay tuned for next time when our

2342
01:14:50.440 --> 01:14:51.729
guest will be George Gopen,

2343
01:14:51.730 --> 01:14:53.229
Professor Emeritus of the Practice

2344
01:14:53.230 --> 01:14:55.449
of Rhetoric at Duke University.

2345
01:14:55.450 --> 01:14:56.450
Thanks so much for listening.