WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.585 --> 00:00:01.585 Hello, 2 00:00:03.930 --> 00:00:04.769 and welcome to the latest 3 00:00:04.770 --> 00:00:05.939 installment of the University of 4 00:00:05.940 --> 00:00:06.872 Pittsburgh Humanities podcast. 5 00:00:06.873 --> 00:00:08.699 A series devoted to 6 00:00:08.700 --> 00:00:10.229 exploring the humanities, their 7 00:00:10.230 --> 00:00:11.249 intersections with other 8 00:00:11.250 --> 00:00:12.749 disciplines, and their value in the 9 00:00:12.750 --> 00:00:13.679 public world. 10 00:00:13.680 --> 00:00:15.449 I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of 11 00:00:15.450 --> 00:00:16.529 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 12 00:00:19.490 --> 00:00:21.199 My guest today is George Lewis, a 13 00:00:21.200 --> 00:00:22.459 groundbreaking trombonist, and 14 00:00:22.460 --> 00:00:24.319 composer, as well as the Edwin 15 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:26.089 H. Case Professor of American Music 16 00:00:26.090 --> 00:00:27.889 at Columbia University. 17 00:00:27.890 --> 00:00:29.509 If there's one idea or practice that 18 00:00:29.510 --> 00:00:30.589 has been with George Lewis the 19 00:00:30.590 --> 00:00:31.590 longest, it's improvisation. 20 00:00:32.990 --> 00:00:34.399 His career as a musician has been 21 00:00:34.400 --> 00:00:36.079 closely tied to the Association for 22 00:00:36.080 --> 00:00:37.219 the Advancement of Creative 23 00:00:37.220 --> 00:00:38.989 Musicians, a group founded in 24 00:00:38.990 --> 00:00:41.059 Chicago in 1965 to nurture 25 00:00:41.060 --> 00:00:42.620 creative and experimental music. 26 00:00:43.670 --> 00:00:45.109 Lewis is also well known for his 27 00:00:45.110 --> 00:00:46.579 work with computers and electronic 28 00:00:46.580 --> 00:00:48.319 music, including his software 29 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.059 Voyager, which listens to and 30 00:00:50.060 --> 00:00:52.549 improvises with human performers. 31 00:00:52.550 --> 00:00:54.259 Here's an example from that work 32 00:00:54.260 --> 00:00:56.539 entitled Voyager Duo Four. 33 00:00:56.540 --> 00:00:58.219 George Lewis is on the trombone. 34 00:00:58.220 --> 00:00:59.401 Roscoe Mitchell is on the sax. 35 00:00:59.402 --> 00:00:59.402 [music] 36 00:00:59.403 --> 00:01:00.403 To 37 00:01:35.460 --> 00:01:37.079 George Lewis, improvisation is more 38 00:01:37.080 --> 00:01:38.819 than just the absence of a pre-set 39 00:01:38.820 --> 00:01:40.649 musical plan and even more than 40 00:01:40.650 --> 00:01:43.049 just a style of musical performance. 41 00:01:43.050 --> 00:01:44.429 As he makes clear when he talks of 42 00:01:44.430 --> 00:01:46.259 improvisation as a birthright, 43 00:01:46.260 --> 00:01:47.909 Lewis regards improvisation as a 44 00:01:47.910 --> 00:01:49.191 basic condition of human existence. 45 00:01:49.192 --> 00:01:51.299 One with enormous untapped 46 00:01:51.300 --> 00:01:53.189 potential in music, politics, 47 00:01:53.190 --> 00:01:54.659 and all areas of social life on 48 00:01:54.660 --> 00:01:55.739 earth. 49 00:01:55.740 --> 00:01:57.329 Here's another example of his work 50 00:01:57.330 --> 00:01:59.009 Homage to Charles Parker from the 51 00:01:59.010 --> 00:02:00.599 album of the same name released in 52 00:02:00.600 --> 00:02:01.529 1979. 53 00:02:01.530 --> 00:02:02.530 [music] 54 00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:40.459 Since the 1990s, George Lewis 55 00:02:40.460 --> 00:02:41.929 has also achieved success as a 56 00:02:41.930 --> 00:02:44.269 scholar, notably with his 2008 57 00:02:44.270 --> 00:02:45.678 book, A Power Stronger Than Itself: 58 00:02:45.679 --> 00:02:47.839 The AACM and American 59 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:49.669 Experimental Music, which won 60 00:02:49.670 --> 00:02:51.500 an American Book Award in 2009. 61 00:02:52.670 --> 00:02:54.649 In 1996, he published an important 62 00:02:54.650 --> 00:02:56.599 essay titled Improvised Music After 63 00:02:56.600 --> 00:02:58.279 1950. 64 00:02:58.280 --> 00:02:59.659 Lewis wrote the essay in part to 65 00:02:59.660 --> 00:03:01.249 demonstrate the value that musicians 66 00:03:01.250 --> 00:03:03.019 outside a Eurocentric tradition had 67 00:03:03.020 --> 00:03:04.519 made to the history of experimental 68 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:05.869 music in the 20th century. 69 00:03:06.900 --> 00:03:08.819 In 2004, he wrote a follow-up 70 00:03:08.820 --> 00:03:09.989 in which he argued that the gap 71 00:03:09.990 --> 00:03:11.242 between Eurocentric and African 72 00:03:11.243 --> 00:03:12.779 American musical traditions had 73 00:03:12.780 --> 00:03:14.789 grown even wider. 74 00:03:14.790 --> 00:03:16.709 I began our conversation by asking 75 00:03:16.710 --> 00:03:18.629 about his thoughts on this topic now 76 00:03:18.630 --> 00:03:19.559 12 years later. 77 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:22.469 I claim many 78 00:03:22.470 --> 00:03:23.759 different traditions or a number 79 00:03:23.760 --> 00:03:25.769 that as being central to 80 00:03:25.770 --> 00:03:26.771 my identity as 81 00:03:29.646 --> 00:03:30.646 a scholar [inaudible] person on the planet. So 82 00:03:31.490 --> 00:03:33.379 in that sense, I don't want to see 83 00:03:33.380 --> 00:03:34.625 these traditions and forms and 84 00:03:34.626 --> 00:03:36.499 practices become 85 00:03:36.500 --> 00:03:38.313 mired in meaningless 86 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:43.489 navel-gazing or become sidetracked 87 00:03:43.490 --> 00:03:44.490 or to 88 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:47.599 spurious modes of thinking about 89 00:03:47.600 --> 00:03:49.729 race or class or gender. 90 00:03:49.730 --> 00:03:50.730 I want these communities, these 91 00:03:50.900 --> 00:03:52.419 creative and 92 00:03:55.100 --> 00:03:56.179 academic scholar communities, to thrive and to move 93 00:03:56.180 --> 00:03:58.219 forward in progressive ways. 94 00:03:58.220 --> 00:04:00.209 So my fear 95 00:04:00.210 --> 00:04:02.839 was that the constructions 96 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:04.639 of musical experimentalism that were 97 00:04:04.640 --> 00:04:05.640 on 98 00:04:07.430 --> 00:04:09.025 offer from 96 and began in 2004 when 99 00:04:09.026 --> 00:04:10.026 change was coming. We're 100 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:14.029 still looking at a relatively 101 00:04:14.030 --> 00:04:16.309 narrow subset 102 00:04:16.310 --> 00:04:17.310 of what 103 00:04:18.890 --> 00:04:20.681 musical experimentalism was, and 104 00:04:20.682 --> 00:04:21.622 what it actually was, and what it 105 00:04:21.623 --> 00:04:22.699 could be. 106 00:04:22.700 --> 00:04:23.720 So imposing an 107 00:04:24.950 --> 00:04:25.950 alternate model for musical experimentalism 108 00:04:28.370 --> 00:04:29.552 one of which in fact was actually 109 00:04:29.553 --> 00:04:33.469 known to both the practitioners 110 00:04:33.470 --> 00:04:35.569 and the scholars, 111 00:04:35.570 --> 00:04:37.040 but which for some reason had 112 00:04:38.180 --> 00:04:39.180 been kind of deemphasized or 113 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:42.199 otherwise pushed to the side. 114 00:04:42.200 --> 00:04:44.449 I wanted to bring those people 115 00:04:44.450 --> 00:04:45.450 from the margins back to the center. 116 00:04:46.820 --> 00:04:48.379 And also, in a way, it was like a 117 00:04:48.380 --> 00:04:51.289 historiographical intervention 118 00:04:51.290 --> 00:04:52.759 with that piece. 119 00:04:52.760 --> 00:04:54.619 So it's not that it's 120 00:04:54.620 --> 00:04:56.869 a question of making progress 121 00:04:56.870 --> 00:04:57.870 on that. It's 122 00:04:58.760 --> 00:04:59.899 more of a question of saying that 123 00:04:59.900 --> 00:05:01.879 what I've seen lately 124 00:05:01.880 --> 00:05:03.032 is that I've seen a new group of 125 00:05:03.033 --> 00:05:04.033 scholars take 126 00:05:05.690 --> 00:05:07.570 out on those challenges 127 00:05:07.571 --> 00:05:09.999 and reformulate 128 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:11.000 its structure of experimentalism 129 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:12.891 with people like Benjamin Piekut, 130 00:05:12.892 --> 00:05:13.963 Ron [inaudible], Jason [inaudible]. Maybe those are 131 00:05:18.440 --> 00:05:19.540 people I've worked with 132 00:05:20.660 --> 00:05:21.649 in the academic environment, but 133 00:05:21.650 --> 00:05:22.650 there are others as well. 134 00:05:23.690 --> 00:05:25.609 So what they've done 135 00:05:25.610 --> 00:05:27.919 is they really started to become 136 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:29.779 game changers in looking 137 00:05:29.780 --> 00:05:30.780 at experimentalism more 138 00:05:31.940 --> 00:05:32.940 as a social 139 00:05:34.250 --> 00:05:36.289 construction, as a 140 00:05:36.290 --> 00:05:37.999 historiological network that 141 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:39.859 constructs knowledge about itself, 142 00:05:39.860 --> 00:05:41.689 about the world, and really 143 00:05:41.690 --> 00:05:43.669 sort of comes together to construct 144 00:05:43.670 --> 00:05:45.379 what really counts as knowledge as 145 00:05:45.380 --> 00:05:46.429 well. 146 00:05:46.430 --> 00:05:48.649 It's so recursive in that way. 147 00:05:48.650 --> 00:05:49.650 So 148 00:05:52.280 --> 00:05:54.409 what's happening with that 149 00:05:54.410 --> 00:05:56.269 is that we start to see 150 00:05:57.440 --> 00:05:59.059 many experimental conditions well 151 00:05:59.060 --> 00:06:00.551 beyond a book like Ben Piekut's edited volume Tomorrow Is the Question. 152 00:06:04.550 --> 00:06:05.184 There are things in there about-- there's a piece in there about the 153 00:06:05.185 --> 00:06:06.057 Group Ongaku in Japan. 154 00:06:06.058 --> 00:06:06.067 There's the Grupo de Experimentacion in Cuba. There's action in 155 00:06:06.068 --> 00:06:07.068 Indonesia. 156 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:16.669 There are many different 157 00:06:16.670 --> 00:06:17.670 experimental traditions 158 00:06:19.790 --> 00:06:21.079 [inaudible]. And in fact, they were 159 00:06:21.080 --> 00:06:22.938 never as separate as it was 160 00:06:22.939 --> 00:06:24.789 supposed. But it seems that we need 161 00:06:24.790 --> 00:06:27.109 another generation historians 162 00:06:27.110 --> 00:06:28.419 coped with stories to point that 163 00:06:28.420 --> 00:06:29.109 out. 164 00:06:29.110 --> 00:06:30.199 Yeah. 165 00:06:30.200 --> 00:06:31.789 One of the other things, along with 166 00:06:31.790 --> 00:06:32.929 improvisation, one of the other kind 167 00:06:32.930 --> 00:06:34.609 of big things I wanted to talk to 168 00:06:34.610 --> 00:06:35.479 you about, and you mentioned it a 169 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:36.949 little bit already, is your work 170 00:06:36.950 --> 00:06:38.809 with electronics and computers 171 00:06:38.810 --> 00:06:39.810 and things like that. 172 00:06:41.089 --> 00:06:42.619 I think, if I have this right, you 173 00:06:42.620 --> 00:06:44.509 started-- was it the late seventies 174 00:06:44.510 --> 00:06:45.709 was the first time that you started 175 00:06:45.710 --> 00:06:47.599 working with electronics and...? 176 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:49.879 You know, I'd say 78 was my 177 00:06:49.880 --> 00:06:51.154 first exposure to it. 178 00:06:51.155 --> 00:06:52.155 Okay. 179 00:06:53.960 --> 00:06:55.309 I mean to the computer. 180 00:06:55.310 --> 00:06:56.310 Now, 181 00:06:57.630 --> 00:06:59.519 exposure to electronics that was 182 00:06:59.520 --> 00:07:01.459 much earlier because 183 00:07:01.460 --> 00:07:04.429 Muhal Richard Abrams was always 184 00:07:04.430 --> 00:07:05.459 a big-- had a strong interest in electronics. And 185 00:07:06.060 --> 00:07:07.060 most 186 00:07:08.510 --> 00:07:10.519 of his albums over the course 187 00:07:10.520 --> 00:07:11.520 of his entire career included at 188 00:07:12.140 --> 00:07:13.140 least one electronic piece, 189 00:07:14.180 --> 00:07:15.981 including the very first which, one 190 00:07:15.982 --> 00:07:16.990 side of the LP was actually an electronic piece. 191 00:07:21.020 --> 00:07:22.729 It's not something that he's well 192 00:07:22.730 --> 00:07:24.079 known for, though, even though 193 00:07:24.080 --> 00:07:25.369 that's a persistent kind of-- 194 00:07:25.370 --> 00:07:25.597 Well, that's the problem with certain writings of history. And we've 195 00:07:25.598 --> 00:07:26.598 already talked about that. [laughter] 196 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:31.470 [laughter] Yeah, right. 197 00:07:33.230 --> 00:07:35.269 So you finished college 198 00:07:35.270 --> 00:07:36.889 in 1974 at Yale and then 199 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:39.169 recorded a number of trombone 200 00:07:39.170 --> 00:07:40.459 albums. But then once you started to 201 00:07:40.460 --> 00:07:42.169 get interested in computers, you've 202 00:07:42.170 --> 00:07:43.339 come into that-- that actually made 203 00:07:43.340 --> 00:07:45.889 the trombone, you said, superfluous 204 00:07:45.890 --> 00:07:46.679 for you. 205 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:48.372 I was interested in that. 206 00:07:48.373 --> 00:07:49.486 Did I say superfluous? Maybe I was being provocative. 207 00:07:52.009 --> 00:07:54.139 Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. 208 00:07:54.140 --> 00:07:55.429 Can you talk a little bit about that 209 00:07:55.430 --> 00:07:56.809 kind of something that you were 210 00:07:56.810 --> 00:07:58.069 interested in? It seemed like what 211 00:07:58.070 --> 00:07:59.509 you were saying was that you were 212 00:07:59.510 --> 00:08:00.510 interested in a broader set 213 00:08:02.150 --> 00:08:04.009 of issues than just playing the 214 00:08:04.010 --> 00:08:05.629 trombone. If that's a less 215 00:08:05.630 --> 00:08:06.649 provocative way to put it. 216 00:08:06.650 --> 00:08:07.969 I'm not sure. 217 00:08:07.970 --> 00:08:10.129 Well, I 218 00:08:10.130 --> 00:08:11.720 see a number of artists 219 00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:15.409 engaged in the pursuit 220 00:08:15.410 --> 00:08:16.910 or practice of mobility. 221 00:08:18.380 --> 00:08:20.409 My role model is someone 222 00:08:20.410 --> 00:08:21.410 like 223 00:08:22.790 --> 00:08:23.569 Stan Douglas. 224 00:08:23.570 --> 00:08:24.570 Canadian, started out as a video artist, then 225 00:08:26.540 --> 00:08:27.540 becoming a film artist. 226 00:08:29.290 --> 00:08:30.290 Then now, he's writing plays, he's making 227 00:08:32.380 --> 00:08:33.380 installations, he's 228 00:08:38.030 --> 00:08:39.009 trying to get an opera going. So someone like 229 00:08:39.010 --> 00:08:40.010 this-- 230 00:08:41.409 --> 00:08:42.409 this is not unknown 231 00:08:43.390 --> 00:08:44.753 with artists. You got people that 232 00:08:44.754 --> 00:08:44.783 are a printmaker and a sculptor and making installations and paints and 233 00:08:44.784 --> 00:08:45.784 draws 234 00:08:50.800 --> 00:08:51.800 and creates videos. 235 00:08:51.970 --> 00:08:52.970 But for some reason, 236 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:56.240 in certain segments of the musical world, one is expected to channel all 237 00:08:56.241 --> 00:08:56.253 of one's creative energy into one place, and I just can't do that. 238 00:08:56.254 --> 00:08:56.266 Because I've had all these other role models that are doing things more 239 00:08:56.267 --> 00:08:57.267 like what I liked to do.. 240 00:09:15.160 --> 00:09:15.939 Yeah. 241 00:09:15.940 --> 00:09:17.019 I mean, it always seemed, to me, 242 00:09:17.020 --> 00:09:18.669 when I've read you talking about 243 00:09:18.670 --> 00:09:19.899 that and then also when I've read 244 00:09:19.900 --> 00:09:21.459 you talking about Voyager too, these 245 00:09:21.460 --> 00:09:23.082 seem like things that allow you-- I 246 00:09:23.083 --> 00:09:24.129 mean, and you've talked about 247 00:09:24.130 --> 00:09:25.629 Voyager this way, too. 248 00:09:25.630 --> 00:09:27.519 That's something that allows 249 00:09:27.520 --> 00:09:29.709 you and, you hope, your listeners 250 00:09:29.710 --> 00:09:31.749 to reflect on musicality. 251 00:09:32.850 --> 00:09:32.851 Oh yeah. 252 00:09:32.852 --> 00:09:34.029 You're not interested in them at 253 00:09:34.030 --> 00:09:36.069 just as tools or computers, 254 00:09:36.070 --> 00:09:38.169 but as something that allows you to 255 00:09:38.170 --> 00:09:40.149 think and be self-reflexive about 256 00:09:40.150 --> 00:09:41.079 what you're doing when you're 257 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:42.579 creating music and what other humans 258 00:09:42.580 --> 00:09:43.989 are doing when they're creating 259 00:09:43.990 --> 00:09:44.990 music. 260 00:09:45.609 --> 00:09:46.709 The Voyager software is a tool, but 261 00:09:46.710 --> 00:09:48.249 it's not a tool for performing. 262 00:09:48.250 --> 00:09:49.539 Because you can't do performing on 263 00:09:49.540 --> 00:09:50.319 it. 264 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:51.325 You can't play a live instrument. 265 00:09:52.680 --> 00:09:53.680 When you turn it on, it does what it likes. 266 00:09:58.899 --> 00:09:59.399 [crosstalk]. It's going to listen to you, but, I mean, you can't control 267 00:09:59.400 --> 00:10:01.299 it. So all you can really do is 268 00:10:01.300 --> 00:10:03.039 turn it on and off. 269 00:10:03.040 --> 00:10:05.059 And between those intervals, what 270 00:10:05.060 --> 00:10:07.158 it becomes a tool for is the 271 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:09.729 question on where human 272 00:10:09.730 --> 00:10:10.750 musical creativity 273 00:10:11.860 --> 00:10:13.474 comes from and how it becomes 274 00:10:13.475 --> 00:10:14.710 communicated in the 275 00:10:16.030 --> 00:10:17.030 act of performance. 276 00:10:17.170 --> 00:10:18.078 And once that happened, you start to 277 00:10:18.079 --> 00:10:19.079 think about 278 00:10:20.110 --> 00:10:21.180 how other modes of creativity that 279 00:10:21.181 --> 00:10:22.181 cannot necessarily. 280 00:10:24.160 --> 00:10:25.053 Musical and artistic also become 281 00:10:25.054 --> 00:10:26.054 communicated 282 00:10:28.900 --> 00:10:29.353 in the interaction with the requirement with other human beings. So 283 00:10:29.354 --> 00:10:30.354 Voyager, 284 00:10:34.870 --> 00:10:36.879 it turns out, was really 285 00:10:36.880 --> 00:10:37.949 not about how you 286 00:10:39.880 --> 00:10:41.619 do cool things with computers, but 287 00:10:41.620 --> 00:10:43.659 it's really about how people do cool 288 00:10:43.660 --> 00:10:44.832 things. Actually having the computer 289 00:10:44.833 --> 00:10:45.833 there interacting 290 00:10:48.160 --> 00:10:48.619 in the same space creates a kind of ironic commentary. A brilliant 291 00:10:48.620 --> 00:10:49.620 commentary on the listeners 292 00:10:54.730 --> 00:10:56.053 and the performers' sense of themselves and their identity. And 293 00:10:59.838 --> 00:11:01.009 suddenly they often forget that 294 00:11:01.010 --> 00:11:03.099 there was a computer performing 295 00:11:03.100 --> 00:11:04.123 and they discuss kind of what they 296 00:11:04.124 --> 00:11:05.900 would do anyway in music, which is 297 00:11:05.901 --> 00:11:07.147 to concentrate on the environment. 298 00:11:07.148 --> 00:11:08.974 Now, I've been 299 00:11:08.975 --> 00:11:09.975 doing this work for a long time. 300 00:11:12.130 --> 00:11:12.911 The first piece was 1976. 301 00:11:12.912 --> 00:11:14.424 This is 2016, so I've been doing it for a while. It's been through a lot 302 00:11:17.740 --> 00:11:19.929 of phases, and with the early 303 00:11:19.930 --> 00:11:20.977 work, I would bring people in and 304 00:11:20.978 --> 00:11:21.978 ask them, 305 00:11:23.980 --> 00:11:24.980 "Play with this thing 306 00:11:26.370 --> 00:11:27.749 and tell me what you think." And they would 307 00:11:27.750 --> 00:11:28.616 say things. It was a like a little ethnography. 308 00:11:28.617 --> 00:11:29.617 They would say things. "Well, it's not music 309 00:11:31.760 --> 00:11:32.760 to me, and I can't get a connection with it." 310 00:11:34.290 --> 00:11:35.508 They didn't say things I don't like about what this-- They 311 00:11:36.100 --> 00:11:38.139 really talked about how 312 00:11:38.140 --> 00:11:39.140 they felt interactionally. So 313 00:11:40.660 --> 00:11:41.660 a lot of the effort 314 00:11:42.680 --> 00:11:44.469 was geared toward making the 315 00:11:44.470 --> 00:11:46.299 computer be able to operate in a 316 00:11:46.300 --> 00:11:48.309 space where 317 00:11:48.310 --> 00:11:49.310 it 318 00:11:51.550 --> 00:11:52.481 would draw attention to itself by 319 00:11:52.482 --> 00:11:53.482 not constructed computerness, but 320 00:11:54.640 --> 00:11:56.829 by-- it, would sort of recede 321 00:11:56.830 --> 00:11:58.929 into the background and 322 00:11:58.930 --> 00:12:01.534 its musicality would be what 323 00:12:01.535 --> 00:12:02.535 would attract attention rather than "Oh I'm 324 00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:04.330 playing with a machine now, 325 00:12:05.410 --> 00:12:06.410 isn't that cool or isn't that awful." 326 00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:09.800 It 327 00:12:11.530 --> 00:12:13.659 took me a long time to get there. 328 00:12:13.660 --> 00:12:16.299 And it turns out part of the issue 329 00:12:16.300 --> 00:12:17.598 is the early ones didn't play as 330 00:12:17.599 --> 00:12:18.599 well as the newer ones do. And 331 00:12:20.380 --> 00:12:22.989 I learned more about 332 00:12:22.990 --> 00:12:23.859 music [inaudible] other theories of music 333 00:12:23.860 --> 00:12:24.900 because the 334 00:12:27.040 --> 00:12:28.322 program-- what it performs is a 335 00:12:28.323 --> 00:12:29.323 reflection 336 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.029 the community of ideas about creativity and music 337 00:12:36.510 --> 00:12:37.510 from which the program came. 338 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:41.742 So in a way, Voyager is a reflection 339 00:12:41.743 --> 00:12:42.743 of the larger experimental ethos 340 00:12:43.590 --> 00:12:44.590 about music-making. 341 00:12:47.380 --> 00:12:48.159 Yeah. 342 00:12:48.160 --> 00:12:49.755 I'll say for me when I listen to it 343 00:12:49.756 --> 00:12:51.559 certainly, it was true, for me, what 344 00:12:51.560 --> 00:12:52.419 you were mentioning that people 345 00:12:52.420 --> 00:12:54.069 forget it's a computer. 346 00:12:54.070 --> 00:12:55.389 I listened for it at first knowing 347 00:12:55.390 --> 00:12:56.919 that, and then, just as you said, it 348 00:12:56.920 --> 00:12:58.809 receded. And I began to listen to it 349 00:12:58.810 --> 00:13:00.969 just as kind of as an environment 350 00:13:00.970 --> 00:13:02.938 rather than as a computer. 351 00:13:02.939 --> 00:13:03.909 Well, it goes back aways. I mean, you can think about models of 352 00:13:03.910 --> 00:13:04.910 liveness. 353 00:13:08.210 --> 00:13:09.954 For example, the old live vs. 354 00:13:11.350 --> 00:13:12.399 recorded concerts 355 00:13:13.900 --> 00:13:15.349 thing that Edgar Villchur, the AR, or Acoustic Research founder, did. 356 00:13:17.710 --> 00:13:20.139 But they would take 357 00:13:20.140 --> 00:13:21.140 a string quartet and put it on. 358 00:13:21.820 --> 00:13:23.259 And then they'd take the speakers, 359 00:13:23.260 --> 00:13:25.509 and they'd play a recording 360 00:13:25.510 --> 00:13:25.561 of the string quartet. And after a while, which one can you tell? It's 361 00:13:25.562 --> 00:13:26.562 kind of like that. 362 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:31.275 This is more that 363 00:13:32.330 --> 00:13:33.458 you have-- especially with pianos 364 00:13:33.459 --> 00:13:34.459 now. A 365 00:13:35.870 --> 00:13:36.870 lot of people 366 00:13:38.510 --> 00:13:40.266 can't really tell which ones do we 367 00:13:40.267 --> 00:13:42.200 want. And it's not that important. 368 00:13:42.201 --> 00:13:43.201 It's only 369 00:13:44.510 --> 00:13:46.609 important at the point when people 370 00:13:46.610 --> 00:13:47.610 past reflect 371 00:13:48.470 --> 00:13:50.600 on why 372 00:13:51.750 --> 00:13:53.299 the sound of the computer invited 373 00:13:53.300 --> 00:13:54.300 empathy, for example. 374 00:13:57.260 --> 00:13:58.810 Or invited reflection or 375 00:14:00.150 --> 00:14:01.999 investigation of 376 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:03.350 its creative 377 00:14:05.060 --> 00:14:06.379 path or justification of the 378 00:14:06.380 --> 00:14:07.640 decisions that have been made. 379 00:14:07.641 --> 00:14:09.929 Or how it was establishing 380 00:14:09.930 --> 00:14:11.461 itself, how the parties to the 381 00:14:11.462 --> 00:14:13.699 improvisation establish 382 00:14:13.700 --> 00:14:14.700 themselves and their musicians. 383 00:14:16.190 --> 00:14:18.093 So they use improvisation that 384 00:14:18.094 --> 00:14:18.122 comes in musicality. A question of position-taking, negotiation, 385 00:14:18.123 --> 00:14:19.123 perspective, 386 00:14:23.930 --> 00:14:24.930 agency, intensity, trust. 387 00:14:29.270 --> 00:14:31.489 So these things actually come 388 00:14:31.490 --> 00:14:32.490 from the 389 00:14:34.893 --> 00:14:35.809 work of the computers. They're theories that 390 00:14:35.810 --> 00:14:37.196 arise or observations that arise out of doing work with computers. 391 00:14:39.890 --> 00:14:41.989 And comparing that 392 00:14:41.990 --> 00:14:42.990 in a way with the work 393 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:45.291 that's done without the computer, 394 00:14:45.292 --> 00:14:46.583 with musicians. 395 00:14:46.584 --> 00:14:48.203 So it's the old thing where you say, 396 00:14:48.204 --> 00:14:49.204 "Oh, music is like life." Whatever. 397 00:14:51.650 --> 00:14:51.808 It's not like, "Oh, life is like music." There's a directionality to the 398 00:14:51.809 --> 00:14:52.809 conversation 399 00:15:01.550 --> 00:15:04.039 so we can learn about music 400 00:15:04.040 --> 00:15:05.170 through looking at 401 00:15:06.270 --> 00:15:06.846 examples from everyday life, or you can hear about it in real life, or 402 00:15:06.847 --> 00:15:08.296 you can hear music samples of how sociality is being formed in sound. 403 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:16.609 Yeah. Well, that was one of the 404 00:15:16.610 --> 00:15:17.809 things-- I mean, I remember reading 405 00:15:17.810 --> 00:15:19.279 in your work at one point written in 406 00:15:19.280 --> 00:15:20.389 the late nineties, you were writing 407 00:15:20.390 --> 00:15:22.039 about a kind of improvisation as it 408 00:15:22.040 --> 00:15:23.929 exists even in the Chicago 409 00:15:23.930 --> 00:15:25.499 Bulls offense and things like that. 410 00:15:25.500 --> 00:15:25.721 And finding different places where-- 411 00:15:25.722 --> 00:15:26.722 Oh yeah the triangle offense. [laughter]. 412 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:30.120 That's right. 413 00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:31.849 I liked that. 414 00:15:31.850 --> 00:15:32.779 [laughter] And how they weren't set 415 00:15:32.780 --> 00:15:33.979 plays and how it was-- I mean, just 416 00:15:33.980 --> 00:15:36.109 seeing kind of improvisation and how 417 00:15:36.110 --> 00:15:37.549 it would appear in different forms 418 00:15:37.550 --> 00:15:39.769 of human interactions, 419 00:15:39.770 --> 00:15:40.770 you know? 420 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:42.829 I was particularly interested in 421 00:15:42.830 --> 00:15:45.259 areas in which improvisation 422 00:15:45.260 --> 00:15:46.579 would appear explicitly. 423 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:48.081 They would say we are improvising, 424 00:15:48.082 --> 00:15:49.082 because 425 00:15:50.050 --> 00:15:52.049 there's also 426 00:15:52.050 --> 00:15:53.050 a sort of 427 00:15:54.920 --> 00:15:56.749 pejorative use of the term. 428 00:15:56.750 --> 00:15:58.285 The improvised explosive device. 429 00:15:58.286 --> 00:16:00.199 Now, what I'm finding 430 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:02.269 recently is that there's certain 431 00:16:02.270 --> 00:16:04.129 strains of military thinking 432 00:16:04.130 --> 00:16:06.439 that talk about improvisation 433 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:08.389 everywhere in the military 434 00:16:08.390 --> 00:16:09.886 in response to basically these kinds 435 00:16:09.887 --> 00:16:10.887 of indeterminate devices that can really 436 00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:13.620 kill people. 437 00:16:15.910 --> 00:16:17.809 How do you survive and thrive 438 00:16:17.810 --> 00:16:19.309 and win, which is what they're 439 00:16:19.310 --> 00:16:21.559 supposed to do? And it seems 440 00:16:21.560 --> 00:16:22.560 as though 441 00:16:23.450 --> 00:16:25.211 there's a lot of military things 442 00:16:25.212 --> 00:16:26.509 surrounding improvisation, as there 443 00:16:26.510 --> 00:16:28.369 have been for quite 444 00:16:28.370 --> 00:16:29.483 a long time. There are a number of small pamphlets of 445 00:16:31.850 --> 00:16:32.478 military histories about improvisation during the Second World War by the 446 00:16:32.479 --> 00:16:33.613 German staff, or by the Russians, or by the Americans. 447 00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:38.857 So there were also pamphlets about-- they call them military 448 00:16:38.858 --> 00:16:39.858 improvisations. So 449 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.009 now, the 450 00:16:46.010 --> 00:16:48.019 new warfare thinking is 451 00:16:48.020 --> 00:16:49.609 connected, and it leads to a couple 452 00:16:49.610 --> 00:16:52.189 of directions toward armies 453 00:16:52.190 --> 00:16:53.864 that have the capability and tools 454 00:16:53.865 --> 00:16:55.614 to improvise in a situation and 455 00:16:56.750 --> 00:16:58.759 also machines that have the 456 00:16:58.760 --> 00:16:59.839 similar capabilities. 457 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:00.840 They're not only 458 00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:02.740 aerial drones, land drones, or the [inaudible]. 459 00:17:04.670 --> 00:17:06.588 Yeah. I mean, this reminds 460 00:17:06.589 --> 00:17:07.789 me of something at the panel you 461 00:17:07.790 --> 00:17:09.229 were on last night. The idea came up 462 00:17:09.230 --> 00:17:10.549 that improvisation does not always 463 00:17:10.550 --> 00:17:12.410 have a kind of progressive or 464 00:17:13.670 --> 00:17:14.839 any kind of moral 465 00:17:15.950 --> 00:17:17.149 value attached to it. 466 00:17:17.150 --> 00:17:18.205 Immediate improvisation can happen 467 00:17:18.206 --> 00:17:19.489 all over. It can happen in military 468 00:17:19.490 --> 00:17:21.318 places. It can happen in 469 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:22.909 a variety of different places. 470 00:17:22.910 --> 00:17:24.709 There was a tendency for earlier 471 00:17:24.710 --> 00:17:25.710 generations of 472 00:17:26.577 --> 00:17:28.229 improvisation theorists to over-valorize 473 00:17:28.230 --> 00:17:30.139 the practice in response 474 00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:31.965 to the very real disapprobation of 475 00:17:31.966 --> 00:17:33.839 improvisation that 476 00:17:33.840 --> 00:17:34.840 was taking place 477 00:17:36.390 --> 00:17:37.524 in academic environments or government environments or 478 00:17:38.450 --> 00:17:40.519 generally in 479 00:17:40.520 --> 00:17:41.520 various 480 00:17:42.454 --> 00:17:43.965 socialities. That improvisation was 481 00:17:43.966 --> 00:17:45.079 not prized but actually actively 482 00:17:45.080 --> 00:17:47.139 denigrated. And so the response 483 00:17:47.140 --> 00:17:47.954 they would say, "Oh, no. 484 00:17:47.955 --> 00:17:50.029 In fact, improvisation is 485 00:17:50.030 --> 00:17:51.889 really one of the highest 486 00:17:51.890 --> 00:17:52.890 forms 487 00:17:54.210 --> 00:17:55.210 of art-making or whatever. 488 00:17:56.270 --> 00:17:57.356 I don't know if it is or not. 489 00:17:57.357 --> 00:17:58.357 I don't know if [inaudible]. 490 00:18:00.650 --> 00:18:01.609 But that was an attempt to-- that 491 00:18:01.610 --> 00:18:02.389 was a correction. 492 00:18:02.390 --> 00:18:03.529 That was kind of an attempt at 493 00:18:03.530 --> 00:18:04.819 making a correction about something 494 00:18:04.820 --> 00:18:06.679 that had been devalued in the past 495 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:07.049 or something. 496 00:18:07.050 --> 00:18:08.707 Right. It's a necessary way station. 497 00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:11.779 It's kind of like when I heard 498 00:18:14.785 --> 00:18:15.254 Gayatri Spivak call something strategic essentialism. It's a bit like 499 00:18:15.255 --> 00:18:16.255 that. But 500 00:18:17.840 --> 00:18:20.049 you have to move past that. 501 00:18:20.050 --> 00:18:22.189 Sure. You began as a-- you have 502 00:18:22.190 --> 00:18:24.199 a very long career as a musician 503 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:25.429 and a composer. You also, at this 504 00:18:25.430 --> 00:18:26.479 point, have a long career as a 505 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:27.807 scholar. But that is something you 506 00:18:27.808 --> 00:18:29.539 only started in, I think, in the 507 00:18:29.540 --> 00:18:31.158 nineties, you started writing? 508 00:18:33.520 --> 00:18:34.107 Yeah, that was the first article. The one we talked about. That was the 509 00:18:34.108 --> 00:18:35.108 first article. 510 00:18:37.009 --> 00:18:38.929 I was interested to read one 511 00:18:38.930 --> 00:18:40.189 of the more recent pieces you've 512 00:18:40.190 --> 00:18:41.509 been writing on Ben Patterson. 513 00:18:41.510 --> 00:18:42.709 And I wanted to-- I had to bring up 514 00:18:42.710 --> 00:18:43.939 Ben Patterson, too, because he's 515 00:18:43.940 --> 00:18:44.940 from Pittsburgh. 516 00:18:52.430 --> 00:18:52.645 That's right! [laughter] 517 00:18:52.646 --> 00:18:52.879 [laughter] I had to get a Ben Patterson question in. Well, I was 518 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:54.439 interested in reading-- so he's one 519 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:56.089 of the founders of the Fluxus 520 00:18:56.090 --> 00:18:57.139 movement. But you're writing about 521 00:18:57.140 --> 00:18:58.009 him in part because he's not 522 00:18:58.010 --> 00:18:59.179 credited as such. 523 00:18:59.180 --> 00:19:00.769 Again, gets back to the history 524 00:19:00.770 --> 00:19:01.789 writing that we've talked about once 525 00:19:01.790 --> 00:19:02.790 or twice. 526 00:19:04.760 --> 00:19:07.069 One comment, in the article 527 00:19:07.070 --> 00:19:08.070 that I read 528 00:19:09.020 --> 00:19:10.129 of you writing about him, as you 529 00:19:10.130 --> 00:19:12.019 were speculating that one of the 530 00:19:12.020 --> 00:19:13.879 reasons that he might have started 531 00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:15.799 writing his own autobiographies is 532 00:19:15.800 --> 00:19:17.689 because he knew he would need to 533 00:19:17.690 --> 00:19:19.640 write himself into his own history. 534 00:19:20.810 --> 00:19:22.219 The phrase is great. 535 00:19:22.220 --> 00:19:24.109 And it 536 00:19:24.110 --> 00:19:25.519 struck me that that might have 537 00:19:25.520 --> 00:19:27.289 something to do with your decision 538 00:19:27.290 --> 00:19:28.309 to begin writing as well. 539 00:19:28.310 --> 00:19:29.310 I wonder if it did. 540 00:19:30.470 --> 00:19:33.170 Well, maybe. 541 00:19:35.690 --> 00:19:38.329 The 96 article 542 00:19:38.330 --> 00:19:40.760 was spurred by 543 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:44.149 just the sense as I began to read 544 00:19:44.150 --> 00:19:46.219 more widely 545 00:19:46.220 --> 00:19:47.239 in the histories of musical 546 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:48.979 experimentalism. 547 00:19:48.980 --> 00:19:50.605 I began to see that 548 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:53.819 these histories were not in sync 549 00:19:53.820 --> 00:19:54.820 with my own experience of 550 00:19:55.820 --> 00:19:57.384 some of the same people that were 551 00:19:57.385 --> 00:19:57.438 being written about. 552 00:19:57.439 --> 00:19:57.439 And in fact, the participation of people I knew with these same people was regularly being kept out of the pictures 553 00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:57.444 that were deliberately written out or 554 00:19:57.445 --> 00:19:57.445 erased. And so, part of that was to write those people back in. And it's become kind 555 00:19:57.446 --> 00:19:57.456 of a principle. It's in the AACM book. If they write you out of history, 556 00:19:57.457 --> 00:19:57.469 you can write yourself back in. You'll probably have to do that at some 557 00:19:57.470 --> 00:19:57.477 point, particularly if you're from some marginalized group. 558 00:19:57.478 --> 00:19:57.478 And that's something that we see over and over again, like from 559 00:19:57.479 --> 00:19:57.482 the slave narratives in the US context, that is. There's certainly many 560 00:19:57.483 --> 00:19:57.493 stories. But slave narratives is kind of an approximate form of American 561 00:19:57.494 --> 00:19:57.496 historical writing on the personal narrative that could 562 00:19:57.497 --> 00:19:58.497 serve as the partial model 563 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:54.139 for a kind of scholarship 564 00:20:54.140 --> 00:20:55.295 that incorporates that mode of writing yourself back in 565 00:20:56.630 --> 00:20:57.630 history. 566 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:00.889 And once again, it wasn't that 567 00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:02.510 Ben Patterson was 568 00:21:03.590 --> 00:21:05.479 not considered to be one of 569 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:06.499 the founders of the 570 00:21:07.670 --> 00:21:09.349 movement. I mean, certainly, he was 571 00:21:09.350 --> 00:21:10.428 considered by all the artists as 572 00:21:10.429 --> 00:21:11.429 being a member of the inner circle. 573 00:21:14.630 --> 00:21:15.630 It was the historians who continued to 574 00:21:16.690 --> 00:21:18.289 marginalize for the most part. And 575 00:21:18.290 --> 00:21:20.179 so, I can 576 00:21:20.180 --> 00:21:21.609 read whole books about Fluxus where 577 00:21:21.610 --> 00:21:23.290 he's never mentioned. Or even 578 00:21:23.291 --> 00:21:25.429 standard sort of survey 579 00:21:25.430 --> 00:21:25.487 books on African American art in which he wasn't mentioned. Although, new 580 00:21:25.488 --> 00:21:26.488 books mention him. 581 00:21:31.370 --> 00:21:32.869 And so, it wasn't just a matter of 582 00:21:35.750 --> 00:21:37.339 Black versus White historians. There was some other 583 00:21:37.340 --> 00:21:38.340 energy at work. 584 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:41.869 The only way to really counteract 585 00:21:41.870 --> 00:21:43.969 that is by staying 586 00:21:43.970 --> 00:21:44.970 in the same arena. You have to 587 00:21:46.190 --> 00:21:47.952 bring the same medicine. 588 00:21:49.310 --> 00:21:50.486 It's sort of like-- what is it [inaudible]. [crosstalk]. 589 00:21:53.690 --> 00:21:54.949 It is. I think it's the same. 590 00:21:56.300 --> 00:21:57.349 You bring the same process. You work 591 00:21:57.350 --> 00:21:59.389 the same processes to 592 00:21:59.390 --> 00:22:00.390 achieve a certain kind of change. 593 00:22:01.130 --> 00:22:02.130 And 594 00:22:03.170 --> 00:22:04.969 the method is kind of the same. 595 00:22:04.970 --> 00:22:05.970 You look at the 596 00:22:07.820 --> 00:22:10.069 private transcript, but you compare 597 00:22:10.070 --> 00:22:11.070 that with the public 598 00:22:12.470 --> 00:22:13.470 transcript, and you try to square 599 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:15.709 the differences. 600 00:22:15.710 --> 00:22:16.902 I want to ask you about one other-- 601 00:22:16.903 --> 00:22:19.099 a piece of yours, Changing 602 00:22:19.100 --> 00:22:21.319 With the Times, your 1993 603 00:22:21.320 --> 00:22:22.729 piece. You've talked about that 604 00:22:22.730 --> 00:22:24.769 also-- I mean, I listened 605 00:22:24.770 --> 00:22:26.899 to it. I loved listening to it. 606 00:22:26.900 --> 00:22:28.789 I don't listen to experimental 607 00:22:28.790 --> 00:22:30.649 music much. But I did 608 00:22:30.650 --> 00:22:32.209 really love listening to that album. 609 00:22:37.610 --> 00:22:39.679 My grandfather was always scheming 610 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:40.909 on how to get money. 611 00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:42.679 At the height of the Depression, he 612 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:44.419 bought his girlfriend a full-length 613 00:22:44.420 --> 00:22:45.469 fur coat. 614 00:22:45.470 --> 00:22:47.119 Even the big White folks would 615 00:22:47.120 --> 00:22:48.889 borrow money from him then. 616 00:22:48.890 --> 00:22:50.599 And you'd never see him without a 617 00:22:50.600 --> 00:22:52.609 suit and tie on. Not just 618 00:22:52.610 --> 00:22:53.449 on Sunday. 619 00:22:53.450 --> 00:22:54.919 Every day. 620 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:56.299 He said, "Look here, boy. 621 00:22:56.300 --> 00:22:57.619 I've got a different suit of clothes 622 00:22:57.620 --> 00:23:00.499 for every day of the week." 623 00:23:00.500 --> 00:23:02.394 I didn't know where that money come 624 00:23:02.395 --> 00:23:04.249 from. And one day, I went to 625 00:23:04.250 --> 00:23:05.089 school hungry. 626 00:23:05.090 --> 00:23:06.769 And when I got out of school, 627 00:23:06.770 --> 00:23:08.689 somebody say, "Let's stop by 628 00:23:08.690 --> 00:23:11.179 your granddaddy's wine shop." 629 00:23:11.180 --> 00:23:12.650 I didn't know nothing about it. 630 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:15.089 I just thought it would be nice to 631 00:23:15.090 --> 00:23:17.309 have a piece of 632 00:23:17.310 --> 00:23:18.310 contemporary music that 633 00:23:20.760 --> 00:23:21.789 [inaudible]. Even if they didn't necessarily like 634 00:23:24.840 --> 00:23:26.038 or look out what 635 00:23:28.620 --> 00:23:28.660 context allow the weird sounds, the story would take them in a tiny bit. 636 00:23:28.661 --> 00:23:29.661 Because 637 00:23:32.700 --> 00:23:34.799 I began to notice I was doing 638 00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:36.460 pieces about 639 00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:39.679 family. Early pieces 640 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:41.515 involving CD-Rom technology 641 00:23:41.516 --> 00:23:42.479 and installations. 642 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:44.369 So the installation, someone 643 00:23:44.370 --> 00:23:45.899 would be playing, and based on what 644 00:23:45.900 --> 00:23:46.900 they played, 645 00:23:50.850 --> 00:23:51.337 the system would chose different vignettes to play in the video. And the 646 00:23:51.338 --> 00:23:53.390 vignettes were about family. 647 00:23:54.510 --> 00:23:56.549 And one of them was my 648 00:23:56.550 --> 00:23:57.983 grandmother, and this is in the 649 00:23:57.984 --> 00:23:58.984 eighties. 650 00:23:59.990 --> 00:24:02.069 So she was complaining 651 00:24:02.070 --> 00:24:03.690 about George 652 00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:06.749 Bush the first, and she was complaining, 653 00:24:06.750 --> 00:24:07.750 also, about 654 00:24:09.540 --> 00:24:10.540 Reagan and Iran-Contra. She 655 00:24:11.370 --> 00:24:13.799 was in her late seventies. 656 00:24:13.800 --> 00:24:16.379 And I noticed that in our 657 00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:18.239 American media, we 658 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.379 don't usually hear anything 659 00:24:20.380 --> 00:24:22.529 of a political nature from people 660 00:24:22.530 --> 00:24:24.329 of that generation. Older African 661 00:24:24.330 --> 00:24:25.776 American women aren't considered 662 00:24:25.777 --> 00:24:26.777 people you need to listen to. 663 00:24:27.630 --> 00:24:29.417 And so, that piece kind of countered 664 00:24:29.418 --> 00:24:30.418 that. 665 00:24:32.910 --> 00:24:34.715 So the Changing With the Times is 666 00:24:36.122 --> 00:24:36.613 born out a similar spirit, although it is kind of intensely male. It's 667 00:24:36.614 --> 00:24:37.614 about male comradery. It's about handing down 668 00:24:42.170 --> 00:24:43.170 from one generation to another. 669 00:24:45.570 --> 00:24:47.699 And the transmission route is from 670 00:24:47.700 --> 00:24:49.619 his grandfather, 671 00:24:49.620 --> 00:24:50.620 my dad's grandfather, to him to grow. 672 00:24:53.670 --> 00:24:55.499 They still do it now. You buy 673 00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:57.029 one of them expensive caskets, they 674 00:24:57.030 --> 00:24:58.889 drop your butt in the ground and get 675 00:24:58.890 --> 00:25:00.869 that casket and sell it to somebody 676 00:25:00.870 --> 00:25:01.829 else. 677 00:25:01.830 --> 00:25:03.959 You might have paid $5,000 678 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:05.249 for that casket. 679 00:25:05.250 --> 00:25:07.079 He ain't got no use for it. 680 00:25:07.080 --> 00:25:08.819 You come along, take that casket, 681 00:25:08.820 --> 00:25:10.289 write him a check, and tell him, 682 00:25:10.290 --> 00:25:11.609 "Use that when you get where you're 683 00:25:11.610 --> 00:25:12.610 going." 684 00:25:13.840 --> 00:25:16.149 Now that was just a joke. 685 00:25:16.150 --> 00:25:17.349 The idea of it being a slave 686 00:25:17.350 --> 00:25:19.089 narrative was mainly because it was 687 00:25:19.090 --> 00:25:21.709 done at the behest-- 688 00:25:21.710 --> 00:25:23.439 the original piece of writing at the 689 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:26.439 beginning was done by 690 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:27.440 him in response to an adult education class, in 691 00:25:29.170 --> 00:25:30.729 which he was asked--they gave 692 00:25:30.730 --> 00:25:31.809 everyone a copy of the 693 00:25:33.970 --> 00:25:34.869 autobiography of Frederick Douglass. And they read that. 694 00:25:34.870 --> 00:25:35.666 They said, "Okay, now write your own 695 00:25:35.667 --> 00:25:36.667 autobiography." They 696 00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:38.840 all sat down and wrote their own 697 00:25:38.841 --> 00:25:39.841 autobiographies. And 698 00:25:41.120 --> 00:25:42.399 then I automated that. And with interviews 699 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:42.582 I made in that video driving around in cars and just talking. And I had a 700 00:25:42.583 --> 00:25:43.583 video camera on. And that would be it. 701 00:25:50.520 --> 00:25:52.240 So that's where the-- 702 00:25:53.430 --> 00:25:55.469 it's sort of like what I'm doing now 703 00:25:55.470 --> 00:25:56.639 at the Afterword Opera. 704 00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:56.929 The libretto comes from these real-life conversations rather than from me 705 00:25:56.930 --> 00:25:58.127 trying to make up stuff or trying to be an actual writer. 706 00:26:05.890 --> 00:26:06.890 Yeah. 707 00:26:08.940 --> 00:26:10.139 Well, there's one or two other 708 00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:10.979 things I want to ask you about. 709 00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:13.949 One has to do with collaboration. 710 00:26:13.950 --> 00:26:15.779 And in particular, your 711 00:26:15.780 --> 00:26:17.219 idea of--this came up last night in 712 00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:18.119 the panel that you were on, the 713 00:26:18.120 --> 00:26:19.979 collaborative improvisation as 714 00:26:19.980 --> 00:26:21.149 critical pedagogy? 715 00:26:21.150 --> 00:26:22.150 Oh, yes. I think that's right. 716 00:26:25.350 --> 00:26:26.350 Yeah. 717 00:26:27.210 --> 00:26:29.309 I wonder about-- you've 718 00:26:29.310 --> 00:26:30.569 talked about collaboration-- you've 719 00:26:30.570 --> 00:26:31.649 written about collaboration and 720 00:26:31.650 --> 00:26:32.639 talked about it in interviews and 721 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:34.619 things and talked about how you try 722 00:26:34.620 --> 00:26:36.479 to incorporate that into 723 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:38.249 your work as a teacher. 724 00:26:38.250 --> 00:26:40.349 And you've talked, too, about 725 00:26:40.350 --> 00:26:42.179 the school that exists at the 726 00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:44.159 AACM and how that kind of embodied 727 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:46.079 the ethos of the 728 00:26:46.080 --> 00:26:48.449 AACM in a pedagogical 729 00:26:48.450 --> 00:26:49.450 setting. 730 00:26:50.250 --> 00:26:52.369 It was how we were all enculturated. 731 00:26:52.370 --> 00:26:53.370 Oh, yeah. 732 00:26:54.930 --> 00:26:56.849 As someone now who has 733 00:26:56.850 --> 00:26:58.769 done as much writing as a 734 00:26:58.770 --> 00:27:00.539 scholar as you have, and someone 735 00:27:00.540 --> 00:27:02.459 who's also performed as 736 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:04.289 a musician, are the same 737 00:27:04.290 --> 00:27:07.679 opportunities for collaborative 738 00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.679 improvisation available to 739 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:12.509 people who are in the humanities 740 00:27:12.510 --> 00:27:14.429 as or people who are, for example, 741 00:27:14.430 --> 00:27:15.209 in music? 742 00:27:15.210 --> 00:27:16.559 I mean, I'm only thinking of this in 743 00:27:16.560 --> 00:27:17.969 terms of scholarship and humanities 744 00:27:17.970 --> 00:27:18.970 being something 745 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:21.959 has traditionally been 746 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:23.189 solitary. 747 00:27:23.190 --> 00:27:25.065 And so, I wonder if this is 748 00:27:25.066 --> 00:27:26.129 something-- have you thought about 749 00:27:26.130 --> 00:27:28.019 that? Have you tried to kind 750 00:27:28.020 --> 00:27:29.939 of make your work as a scholar any 751 00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:31.476 more collaborative? And if so, how? 752 00:27:34.260 --> 00:27:35.039 People kind of felt-- when I was doing the 753 00:27:35.040 --> 00:27:37.139 early work at 754 00:27:37.140 --> 00:27:39.169 the-- Samuel Floyd at 755 00:27:39.170 --> 00:27:41.279 the Center for Black Music Research 756 00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:42.599 had a series of what he called 757 00:27:42.600 --> 00:27:44.339 integrated studies practices. 758 00:27:45.360 --> 00:27:47.279 And what they were looking 759 00:27:47.280 --> 00:27:48.280 for, among other things, was a way 760 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:51.599 of doing collaborative scholarship. 761 00:27:51.600 --> 00:27:52.600 Collaborative scholarship is-- and 762 00:27:53.730 --> 00:27:55.088 there were new technological tools, 763 00:27:55.089 --> 00:27:56.089 the forerunners of wikis, 764 00:27:58.780 --> 00:27:59.780 for example. Or 765 00:28:00.630 --> 00:28:02.129 what we have now with the Google 766 00:28:02.130 --> 00:28:03.719 Docs that make certain kinds of 767 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:04.709 things. 768 00:28:04.710 --> 00:28:05.810 You can write things collectively. 769 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:10.049 And the problem, of course, with 770 00:28:10.050 --> 00:28:11.699 collective humanities scholarship is 771 00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:12.700 that the regimes 772 00:28:14.270 --> 00:28:15.270 that vet people for things 773 00:28:16.470 --> 00:28:17.609 like tenure and promotion, don't 774 00:28:17.610 --> 00:28:18.493 seem to value collaborative 775 00:28:18.494 --> 00:28:19.494 scholarship as highly. 776 00:28:20.460 --> 00:28:22.049 And I've been on both sides of the 777 00:28:22.050 --> 00:28:24.179 aisle. I've been on the 778 00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:25.692 side that writes the stuff and sends it to the people vetted for tenure. 779 00:28:28.610 --> 00:28:29.933 And I've been on the side that evaluates people for tenure. And 780 00:28:31.410 --> 00:28:32.410 so, 781 00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:37.229 the major committees in university 782 00:28:37.230 --> 00:28:38.230 that do this. 783 00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:39.709 And so, one of the things you notice, 784 00:28:39.710 --> 00:28:40.710 and standard questions is well, 785 00:28:41.550 --> 00:28:42.720 what's the degree of effort? 786 00:28:44.250 --> 00:28:46.769 And if the degree is 50% 787 00:28:46.770 --> 00:28:49.199 or how much of this did this person 788 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:51.119 write as a co-opted piece or 789 00:28:51.120 --> 00:28:52.120 team teaching? 790 00:28:53.970 --> 00:28:54.849 It becomes very difficult. How do you get credit for that? You want to be 791 00:28:54.850 --> 00:28:56.789 able to teach 792 00:28:56.790 --> 00:28:58.627 the max 793 00:28:58.628 --> 00:28:58.787 or teach at least enough so they don't want to get away with anything so 794 00:28:58.788 --> 00:28:59.788 they're doing half the work when they're team 795 00:29:00.669 --> 00:29:01.669 teaching... 796 00:29:02.490 --> 00:29:04.799 So these are structural problems 797 00:29:04.800 --> 00:29:05.800 that 798 00:29:07.450 --> 00:29:08.219 impede the generation of collaborative scholarship. I don't think there's 799 00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:09.628 any-- the edited volume has become 800 00:29:09.629 --> 00:29:10.629 an acceptable substitute. But people 801 00:29:12.458 --> 00:29:13.487 are starting to chafe under the restrictions. And 802 00:29:16.830 --> 00:29:18.359 a lot of people really want to 803 00:29:18.360 --> 00:29:19.361 cooperate in radical ways. 804 00:29:19.362 --> 00:29:20.748 I haven't been able to do nearly as much of it as I would like to. 805 00:29:22.808 --> 00:29:23.808 Probably 806 00:29:25.350 --> 00:29:26.519 for that reason. 807 00:29:26.520 --> 00:29:27.899 You've talked in some interviews 808 00:29:27.900 --> 00:29:29.759 about the fact that writing about 809 00:29:29.760 --> 00:29:31.289 music does not have the same 810 00:29:31.290 --> 00:29:33.089 presence in the public sphere as 811 00:29:33.090 --> 00:29:34.709 writing about plenty other kinds of 812 00:29:34.710 --> 00:29:36.389 art. And you're thinking about the 813 00:29:36.390 --> 00:29:37.319 Atlantic, you're thinking about the 814 00:29:37.320 --> 00:29:38.849 New York Review of Books. 815 00:29:38.850 --> 00:29:40.679 And I didn't realize 816 00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:41.849 that that was the-- I'm a regular 817 00:29:41.850 --> 00:29:42.839 reader of the New York Review of 818 00:29:42.840 --> 00:29:44.159 Books and did not realize that that 819 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:45.899 was the case until you mentioned it 820 00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:46.889 and then checked it out. 821 00:29:46.890 --> 00:29:47.890 And sure enough, 822 00:29:48.840 --> 00:29:50.069 just as you say, it's not really 823 00:29:50.070 --> 00:29:52.139 there. Can you talk a bit about why 824 00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:53.399 this gap exists? 825 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.349 Why is writing about other 826 00:29:55.350 --> 00:29:57.809 kinds of arts more present 827 00:29:57.810 --> 00:29:58.810 in those places? 828 00:30:00.120 --> 00:30:01.949 You know, it's 829 00:30:01.950 --> 00:30:04.079 interesting because lately, 830 00:30:04.080 --> 00:30:05.729 I've been writing for Art Forum 831 00:30:05.730 --> 00:30:07.889 about music and 832 00:30:07.890 --> 00:30:09.077 I don't do a lot of it. 833 00:30:09.078 --> 00:30:10.078 Right? I'm not really that kind of writer, but 834 00:30:10.650 --> 00:30:11.775 I try to hang in there or something. 835 00:30:13.890 --> 00:30:16.190 It just seems to me that 836 00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:18.400 music is 837 00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:21.629 heavily sold in American 838 00:30:21.630 --> 00:30:24.330 society as largely 839 00:30:25.410 --> 00:30:26.410 a form of entertainment. 840 00:30:28.710 --> 00:30:31.109 And who do we go to 841 00:30:31.110 --> 00:30:33.299 for serious commentary 842 00:30:33.300 --> 00:30:35.579 on the human condition? 843 00:30:35.580 --> 00:30:38.109 Well, we can go to 844 00:30:38.110 --> 00:30:39.779 someone [for a retainer?], or we can 845 00:30:39.780 --> 00:30:42.359 go to a philosopher, 846 00:30:42.360 --> 00:30:43.737 or we can go to an art historian or 847 00:30:43.738 --> 00:30:44.738 someone like that. 848 00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:47.429 But I think it goes a little bit 849 00:30:47.430 --> 00:30:48.430 deeper than that. 850 00:30:49.540 --> 00:30:50.340 But for some reason, I-- maybe I 851 00:30:50.341 --> 00:30:51.341 can't explain it. Music 852 00:30:54.100 --> 00:30:56.169 isn't expected to teach us 853 00:30:56.170 --> 00:30:58.269 anything about the 854 00:30:58.270 --> 00:31:00.129 critical issue that affects us 855 00:31:00.130 --> 00:31:01.130 all of course. 856 00:31:01.660 --> 00:31:03.879 So that's going to be a question of 857 00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:06.339 the musicians, the musicologists, 858 00:31:06.340 --> 00:31:07.916 the ethnomusicologists, the musical 859 00:31:07.917 --> 00:31:08.799 historians. 860 00:31:08.800 --> 00:31:09.939 They have to fix that. 861 00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:11.800 We have to fix 862 00:31:11.801 --> 00:31:12.801 that. It's not our fault up to a point. But 863 00:31:16.120 --> 00:31:17.794 we do have to recognize that it's 864 00:31:17.795 --> 00:31:18.795 something that 865 00:31:19.780 --> 00:31:20.859 something that needs addressing very much. And that 866 00:31:20.860 --> 00:31:22.389 doesn't mean we address it by 867 00:31:22.390 --> 00:31:23.390 writing about 868 00:31:24.490 --> 00:31:25.929 "more accessible music." What we're 869 00:31:25.930 --> 00:31:28.089 doing is we 870 00:31:28.090 --> 00:31:29.109 try to 871 00:31:30.490 --> 00:31:32.349 foreshorten or close up 872 00:31:32.350 --> 00:31:35.379 that gap between the experience. 873 00:31:35.380 --> 00:31:36.760 We teach people to hear differently, 874 00:31:37.900 --> 00:31:38.900 to listen 875 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:41.679 for the traces of culture, to listen for 876 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:42.190 traces of humanity in sound, to listen for the issues that animate us, 877 00:31:42.191 --> 00:31:43.191 and in some 878 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:50.015 cases, provide us or 879 00:31:50.016 --> 00:31:51.016 challenge us. To listen for ways 880 00:31:52.665 --> 00:31:54.459 in which music not only mirrors or 881 00:31:55.617 --> 00:31:56.617 reflects these but enacts them. 882 00:31:58.210 --> 00:31:59.709 So if we can do that, we have to 883 00:31:59.710 --> 00:32:01.539 find ways in scholarship. 884 00:32:01.540 --> 00:32:02.529 It's a new form of ear training. 885 00:32:02.530 --> 00:32:03.530 And 886 00:32:04.770 --> 00:32:06.669 the form of ear training in 887 00:32:06.670 --> 00:32:09.999 which notes, chords, 888 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:11.000 musical elements actually 889 00:32:15.142 --> 00:32:15.292 carry us for much more fundamental signal. And if we can teach people to 890 00:32:15.293 --> 00:32:16.293 protect 891 00:32:17.650 --> 00:32:19.989 that, then we'll find 892 00:32:19.990 --> 00:32:21.460 a new generation of people 893 00:32:24.974 --> 00:32:25.959 writing for these public intellectual organs who will be 894 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:27.079 more sensitive to that. 895 00:32:27.080 --> 00:32:29.259 I don't think the day is quite 896 00:32:29.260 --> 00:32:30.260 there yet. 897 00:32:30.520 --> 00:32:32.709 We're seeing some more interesting 898 00:32:32.710 --> 00:32:33.688 people doing this [inaudible]. 899 00:32:33.689 --> 00:32:34.689 But 900 00:32:39.790 --> 00:32:41.619 still, there are too few of those 901 00:32:41.620 --> 00:32:44.109 people. And the methodology 902 00:32:44.110 --> 00:32:46.359 of the alternative pedagogy 903 00:32:46.360 --> 00:32:48.249 of listening to sound is not 904 00:32:48.250 --> 00:32:49.250 as far advanced as it needs to be. 905 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.309 George Lewis, thank you so much. 906 00:32:54.310 --> 00:32:55.310 Thank you very much. 907 00:32:59.289 --> 00:33:00.279 That's it for this episode of the 908 00:33:00.280 --> 00:33:01.629 University of Pittsburgh Humanities 909 00:33:01.630 --> 00:33:02.889 podcast. 910 00:33:02.890 --> 00:33:04.449 Stay tuned for our next episode with 911 00:33:04.450 --> 00:33:06.009 Mark Jarzombek, professor of the 912 00:33:06.010 --> 00:33:07.389 History and Theory of Architecture 913 00:33:07.390 --> 00:33:09.549 at MIT and author of the book 914 00:33:09.550 --> 00:33:11.199 A Global History of Architecture. 915 00:33:12.220 --> 00:33:13.220 Thanks for listening.
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