WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.700 --> 00:00:03.719 Hello and welcome to the University 2 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:05.539 of Pittsburgh Humanities podcast, 3 00:00:05.540 --> 00:00:07.019 a series devoted to exploring the 4 00:00:07.020 --> 00:00:08.909 humanities, their intersections 5 00:00:08.910 --> 00:00:10.379 with other disciplines, and their 6 00:00:10.380 --> 00:00:12.209 value in the public world. 7 00:00:12.210 --> 00:00:14.069 I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of 8 00:00:14.070 --> 00:00:15.779 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 9 00:00:15.780 --> 00:00:17.489 My guest today is Marcia Chatelain, 10 00:00:17.490 --> 00:00:18.959 associate professor of History at 11 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:20.070 Georgetown University. 12 00:00:23.040 --> 00:00:24.779 Dr. Chatelain's research focuses on 13 00:00:24.780 --> 00:00:26.318 a wide range of issues in African 14 00:00:26.319 --> 00:00:28.409 American history, including African 15 00:00:28.410 --> 00:00:30.269 American migration, women and 16 00:00:30.270 --> 00:00:33.119 girls' history, and race and food. 17 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:34.889 Her first book, Southide Girls 18 00:00:34.890 --> 00:00:36.749 Growing Up in the Great Migration, 19 00:00:36.750 --> 00:00:38.099 focuses on the experience of the 20 00:00:38.100 --> 00:00:39.509 Great Migration for young African 21 00:00:39.510 --> 00:00:41.369 American women, a group of 22 00:00:41.370 --> 00:00:42.869 people that scholars frequently fail 23 00:00:42.870 --> 00:00:45.449 to recognize or fully explore. 24 00:00:45.450 --> 00:00:47.129 Dr. Chatelain describes herself as a 25 00:00:47.130 --> 00:00:49.049 scholar and activist and frequently 26 00:00:49.050 --> 00:00:50.609 emphasizes the connections between 27 00:00:50.610 --> 00:00:51.809 the two. 28 00:00:51.810 --> 00:00:52.949 She makes an effort to bring her 29 00:00:52.950 --> 00:00:54.749 research and scholarship to a wide 30 00:00:54.750 --> 00:00:56.339 audience through social media, 31 00:00:56.340 --> 00:00:58.229 podcasts, and frequent appearances 32 00:00:58.230 --> 00:00:59.759 on national radio and television 33 00:00:59.760 --> 00:01:01.199 programs. 34 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:02.699 She also invites students to bring 35 00:01:02.700 --> 00:01:04.619 their nonacademic experiences into 36 00:01:04.620 --> 00:01:06.749 the classroom, setting aside several 37 00:01:06.750 --> 00:01:08.369 minutes in each class for students 38 00:01:08.370 --> 00:01:09.899 to talk about their current concerns 39 00:01:09.900 --> 00:01:12.209 and connect them to course material. 40 00:01:12.210 --> 00:01:14.189 In 2014, she gained national 41 00:01:14.190 --> 00:01:15.899 attention for creating the hashtag 42 00:01:15.900 --> 00:01:18.269 FergusonSyllabus on Twitter 43 00:01:18.270 --> 00:01:20.219 and urging educators at all levels 44 00:01:20.220 --> 00:01:22.439 and in all fields to focus classroom 45 00:01:22.440 --> 00:01:24.029 discussion on the events surrounding 46 00:01:24.030 --> 00:01:25.030 Michael Brown's shooting. 47 00:01:26.250 --> 00:01:28.049 The inspiration, she says, came from 48 00:01:28.050 --> 00:01:29.189 thinking of all the students in 49 00:01:29.190 --> 00:01:30.599 Ferguson who wouldn't be able to go 50 00:01:30.600 --> 00:01:32.519 back to school as planned and 51 00:01:32.520 --> 00:01:33.749 all of the empty desks and 52 00:01:33.750 --> 00:01:35.999 classrooms that would sit waiting. 53 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:37.349 She was also inspired by her own 54 00:01:37.350 --> 00:01:39.029 experience as an undergraduate at 55 00:01:39.030 --> 00:01:40.409 the University of Missouri, where 56 00:01:40.410 --> 00:01:41.639 she first learned the essential 57 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:43.229 connections between scholarship and 58 00:01:43.230 --> 00:01:44.939 social change. 59 00:01:44.940 --> 00:01:46.469 I began by asking her about this 60 00:01:46.470 --> 00:01:47.999 early experience with activism and 61 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:49.889 academics and how she thought about 62 00:01:49.890 --> 00:01:51.150 the relationship between the two. 63 00:01:55.590 --> 00:01:57.059 Like many students, I went to 64 00:01:57.060 --> 00:01:58.979 college with a major in mind 65 00:01:58.980 --> 00:02:00.839 and definite plans for the future. 66 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:02.129 And when I went to the University of 67 00:02:02.130 --> 00:02:04.289 Missouri to study journalism, 68 00:02:04.290 --> 00:02:06.029 what I discovered was that my 69 00:02:06.030 --> 00:02:08.008 student activism was far 70 00:02:08.009 --> 00:02:09.269 more interesting to me than 71 00:02:09.270 --> 00:02:11.459 journalism. Organizing people, 72 00:02:11.460 --> 00:02:14.099 helping them on campaigns, helping 73 00:02:14.100 --> 00:02:15.749 groups strategize how they were 74 00:02:15.750 --> 00:02:17.009 going to get to the next steps. 75 00:02:17.010 --> 00:02:18.869 One of the things I realized that it 76 00:02:18.870 --> 00:02:20.555 was all teaching, and I loved it. 77 00:02:20.556 --> 00:02:22.589 And I loved the opportunity 78 00:02:22.590 --> 00:02:24.629 to get in front of a group of people 79 00:02:24.630 --> 00:02:26.549 and teach them a skill that would 80 00:02:26.550 --> 00:02:28.709 help them figure out their lives 81 00:02:28.710 --> 00:02:29.939 in clear ways. 82 00:02:29.940 --> 00:02:31.889 And so, my love of 83 00:02:31.890 --> 00:02:33.689 organizing became a love of 84 00:02:33.690 --> 00:02:35.386 teaching. And it was in that moment 85 00:02:35.387 --> 00:02:37.349 I decided that what I really 86 00:02:37.350 --> 00:02:39.209 wanted to do was stay engaged in the 87 00:02:39.210 --> 00:02:40.499 life of the university as a 88 00:02:40.500 --> 00:02:41.609 professor. 89 00:02:41.610 --> 00:02:42.689 So on one hand, you're kind of 90 00:02:42.690 --> 00:02:44.579 interest in activism 91 00:02:44.580 --> 00:02:46.049 grew in for you into being a 92 00:02:46.050 --> 00:02:47.389 professor and into a scholar. 93 00:02:47.390 --> 00:02:48.839 But you've also said too that to be 94 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:50.549 a good activist, you need to be a 95 00:02:50.550 --> 00:02:51.550 good Historian. 96 00:02:52.410 --> 00:02:53.189 Do you feel the other side of that is 97 00:02:53.190 --> 00:02:54.059 also true? 98 00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:55.919 So I think the number one thing 99 00:02:55.920 --> 00:02:58.229 that I always say to activists 100 00:02:58.230 --> 00:02:59.789 or any kind of group that's trying 101 00:02:59.790 --> 00:03:01.799 to solve a problem is to say-- I 102 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:03.089 always say you have to read a 103 00:03:03.090 --> 00:03:04.079 history book, and you have to read 104 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:04.919 the paper. 105 00:03:04.920 --> 00:03:06.089 The history book will give you the 106 00:03:06.090 --> 00:03:08.369 context on how you got there, 107 00:03:08.370 --> 00:03:10.079 and the paper will make sure that 108 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:11.849 you're staying relevant and using 109 00:03:11.850 --> 00:03:13.709 the language that's circulating 110 00:03:13.710 --> 00:03:15.569 in any type of community or 111 00:03:15.570 --> 00:03:17.399 field. So I think that one of 112 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:19.469 the keys to linking 113 00:03:19.470 --> 00:03:21.059 the experiences we have on a college 114 00:03:21.060 --> 00:03:22.769 campus to making a difference in the 115 00:03:22.770 --> 00:03:24.479 world is helping our students 116 00:03:24.480 --> 00:03:26.429 understand that all of the skills 117 00:03:26.430 --> 00:03:28.409 that they learn on campus are 118 00:03:28.410 --> 00:03:30.239 about solving problems, 119 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.129 whether it's their own sense of 120 00:03:32.130 --> 00:03:33.929 purpose or whether it's fighting 121 00:03:33.930 --> 00:03:35.789 injustice or whether it's making a 122 00:03:35.790 --> 00:03:37.739 product. All of these skills 123 00:03:37.740 --> 00:03:39.959 that we learn here are applicable, 124 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:41.099 and I think that that's why the 125 00:03:41.100 --> 00:03:43.439 humanities provides us such a gift 126 00:03:43.440 --> 00:03:45.689 because the humanities are about 127 00:03:45.690 --> 00:03:47.909 thinking through challenges 128 00:03:47.910 --> 00:03:50.099 to the human person and 129 00:03:50.100 --> 00:03:52.169 really developing into someone 130 00:03:52.170 --> 00:03:54.809 different at the end of the process. 131 00:03:54.810 --> 00:03:55.893 I mean, I love the way you talk 132 00:03:55.894 --> 00:03:57.009 about reading the history book and 133 00:03:57.010 --> 00:03:58.529 then reading the paper, because one 134 00:03:58.530 --> 00:03:59.669 of the things you have on your 135 00:03:59.670 --> 00:04:00.872 website, there's a really great-- 136 00:04:02.820 --> 00:04:04.439 a class of yours broadcast on 137 00:04:04.440 --> 00:04:05.440 C-SPAN. 138 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:08.609 But you did in class. 139 00:04:08.610 --> 00:04:09.599 And I think you do this not just in 140 00:04:09.600 --> 00:04:11.189 this class, but all the time. 141 00:04:11.190 --> 00:04:12.599 You spend some time in the beginning 142 00:04:12.600 --> 00:04:14.759 with students talking about what's 143 00:04:14.760 --> 00:04:16.289 happening. Talking about the world, 144 00:04:16.290 --> 00:04:18.148 and then kind of you talk 145 00:04:18.149 --> 00:04:19.078 and then you have a kind of a 146 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:20.079 lecture or traditional kind of course. 147 00:04:20.970 --> 00:04:22.829 So it seems like in the 148 00:04:22.830 --> 00:04:24.929 classroom for you, that's 149 00:04:24.930 --> 00:04:26.009 what you do in a sense. 150 00:04:26.010 --> 00:04:27.419 You have kind of like this what's 151 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:28.379 going on in the world, what's going 152 00:04:28.380 --> 00:04:29.879 on newspapers, and then what are we 153 00:04:29.880 --> 00:04:30.959 thinking about? What are we learning 154 00:04:30.960 --> 00:04:31.889 about today? 155 00:04:31.890 --> 00:04:33.509 When I started my teaching career, I 156 00:04:33.510 --> 00:04:35.099 knew that I would always be teaching 157 00:04:35.100 --> 00:04:36.749 difficult topics, whether it's about 158 00:04:36.750 --> 00:04:38.609 race or sexuality or difference 159 00:04:38.610 --> 00:04:39.599 or injustice. 160 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:40.979 And one of the things that I did 161 00:04:40.980 --> 00:04:43.109 immediately was to create 162 00:04:43.110 --> 00:04:45.089 this 10 to 15-minute period 163 00:04:45.090 --> 00:04:46.499 in the beginning of class I called 164 00:04:46.500 --> 00:04:48.479 hot topics or news and views or 165 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:50.309 sharing and caring, whatever 166 00:04:50.310 --> 00:04:51.779 I call it. But it's an opportunity 167 00:04:51.780 --> 00:04:53.189 for students to talk about whatever 168 00:04:53.190 --> 00:04:54.569 they want to talk about. 169 00:04:54.570 --> 00:04:56.399 And one of the things that it does 170 00:04:56.400 --> 00:04:58.019 it shifts the power balance in the 171 00:04:58.020 --> 00:04:59.459 classroom so that students feel like 172 00:04:59.460 --> 00:05:01.169 they're invested in the process. 173 00:05:01.170 --> 00:05:02.939 And it also gives an opportunity for 174 00:05:02.940 --> 00:05:04.499 students to bridge that divide 175 00:05:04.500 --> 00:05:05.609 between the classroom and the 176 00:05:05.610 --> 00:05:06.659 outside world. 177 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:07.889 So the beginning of the semester, 178 00:05:07.890 --> 00:05:09.449 students might just announce bake 179 00:05:09.450 --> 00:05:10.859 sales or parties that they're 180 00:05:10.860 --> 00:05:12.359 throwing for their clubs. 181 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:14.159 And by the end of the semester, 182 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:15.959 they're looping back to what we 183 00:05:15.960 --> 00:05:16.829 learned in class. 184 00:05:16.830 --> 00:05:17.789 And they'll say, I read this thing 185 00:05:17.790 --> 00:05:19.109 in the New York Times, and it 186 00:05:19.110 --> 00:05:21.329 reminded me of this lecture, and 187 00:05:21.330 --> 00:05:23.219 it builds communities 188 00:05:23.220 --> 00:05:24.179 within the classroom. 189 00:05:24.180 --> 00:05:25.709 So students are learning about each 190 00:05:25.710 --> 00:05:26.999 other's interests, about what's 191 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:28.379 important to each other. 192 00:05:28.380 --> 00:05:30.209 And then what's amazing 193 00:05:30.210 --> 00:05:31.379 is that when we have difficult 194 00:05:31.380 --> 00:05:33.209 dialogue, there's a level of trust 195 00:05:33.210 --> 00:05:34.210 among the students. 196 00:05:35.320 --> 00:05:36.119 What it seems like you're doing your 197 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:38.309 classes and in your writing is 198 00:05:38.310 --> 00:05:40.139 trying to kind of use what we're 199 00:05:40.140 --> 00:05:41.849 doing here in universities to impact 200 00:05:41.850 --> 00:05:43.949 the world outside of universities. 201 00:05:43.950 --> 00:05:45.313 It seems like one of the other ways 202 00:05:45.314 --> 00:05:47.159 to me that you've tried to do 203 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:48.639 that is through media. 204 00:05:48.640 --> 00:05:49.919 Through your own appearances in 205 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:51.989 places and that-- you've become 206 00:05:51.990 --> 00:05:54.119 more visible since-- 207 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:55.191 and I'll ask you about the hashtag FergusonSyllabus 208 00:05:56.010 --> 00:05:57.029 in just a moment. You become more 209 00:05:57.030 --> 00:05:58.319 visible now. But it wasn't just that 210 00:05:58.320 --> 00:06:00.329 it's not as though-- because you 211 00:06:00.330 --> 00:06:02.759 were doing things on MSNBC 212 00:06:02.760 --> 00:06:04.379 and things like that before that 213 00:06:04.380 --> 00:06:05.189 happened. 214 00:06:05.190 --> 00:06:07.079 Do you consciously try to 215 00:06:07.080 --> 00:06:08.759 do that, to use the media to reach a 216 00:06:08.760 --> 00:06:09.760 wider audience? 217 00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:12.329 So the reality is, is that about 218 00:06:12.330 --> 00:06:14.189 one-third of Americans will have the 219 00:06:14.190 --> 00:06:16.019 experience of a college. 220 00:06:16.020 --> 00:06:17.969 Right? And even fewer Americans will 221 00:06:17.970 --> 00:06:19.289 ever have an experience of going to 222 00:06:19.290 --> 00:06:21.179 a school like Pitt or Georgetown 223 00:06:21.180 --> 00:06:22.769 or the University of Missouri. 224 00:06:22.770 --> 00:06:24.659 And so, for the population 225 00:06:24.660 --> 00:06:26.579 that doesn't quite know what we do 226 00:06:26.580 --> 00:06:28.259 here, I think it's important for 227 00:06:28.260 --> 00:06:29.939 academics to use platforms like 228 00:06:29.940 --> 00:06:32.099 television, like social media, like 229 00:06:32.100 --> 00:06:34.079 radio to bring people 230 00:06:34.080 --> 00:06:35.849 closer to the things that we do on 231 00:06:35.850 --> 00:06:38.279 campus. And I really believe that 232 00:06:38.280 --> 00:06:40.439 when you have an ability to 233 00:06:40.440 --> 00:06:42.599 bridge that divide and to do 234 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:44.879 those acts of translation, you 235 00:06:44.880 --> 00:06:46.169 help people understand the 236 00:06:46.170 --> 00:06:47.579 importance of what we do. 237 00:06:47.580 --> 00:06:49.529 And so, I think that 238 00:06:49.530 --> 00:06:51.899 going on television and 239 00:06:51.900 --> 00:06:53.551 talking about a topic in a nuanced 240 00:06:53.552 --> 00:06:55.529 way and then 241 00:06:55.530 --> 00:06:57.449 making a reference to a book or 242 00:06:57.450 --> 00:06:59.609 a piece of work that people can do 243 00:06:59.610 --> 00:07:00.809 the deep dive into. 244 00:07:00.810 --> 00:07:02.189 I think that that's part of our 245 00:07:02.190 --> 00:07:03.089 role, right? 246 00:07:03.090 --> 00:07:05.159 We have to stand up for not 247 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:07.079 only what we do but also its 248 00:07:07.080 --> 00:07:08.639 capacity to help people. 249 00:07:08.640 --> 00:07:10.499 And so, I think television 250 00:07:10.500 --> 00:07:11.759 is fantastic. 251 00:07:11.760 --> 00:07:13.199 And at the same time, I think that 252 00:07:13.200 --> 00:07:15.209 we have a responsibility to be 253 00:07:15.210 --> 00:07:17.219 really responsible for the platforms 254 00:07:17.220 --> 00:07:18.689 that we create and for the things 255 00:07:18.690 --> 00:07:20.099 that we say on those platforms. 256 00:07:20.100 --> 00:07:21.299 Yeah, that's interesting. 257 00:07:21.300 --> 00:07:22.379 I mean, I like the phrase you use 258 00:07:22.380 --> 00:07:23.969 after translation too, because so 259 00:07:23.970 --> 00:07:26.309 much of what we 260 00:07:26.310 --> 00:07:28.739 hear about the media is the way the 261 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:30.179 content is packaged in a certain 262 00:07:30.180 --> 00:07:32.279 way. It's geared towards soundbites, 263 00:07:32.280 --> 00:07:33.869 whereas things that you do and we do 264 00:07:33.870 --> 00:07:35.849 in the university might allow 265 00:07:35.850 --> 00:07:37.589 for more-- those platforms might allow for more 266 00:07:37.590 --> 00:07:38.590 nuance and things. 267 00:07:39.420 --> 00:07:40.709 Do you have to consciously think 268 00:07:40.710 --> 00:07:42.539 about translating in a way that is 269 00:07:42.540 --> 00:07:44.539 effective to both 270 00:07:44.540 --> 00:07:45.689 it's going to be effective on TV, 271 00:07:45.690 --> 00:07:46.709 but it's still going to have the 272 00:07:46.710 --> 00:07:48.899 kind of that nuance and subtlety 273 00:07:48.900 --> 00:07:50.039 that your work does from the 274 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:51.149 university? 275 00:07:51.150 --> 00:07:52.769 I don't want to be a caricature of a 276 00:07:52.770 --> 00:07:53.549 college professor. 277 00:07:53.550 --> 00:07:54.479 I don't want to be, you know, 278 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:56.549 Professor Elbow Patches who says 279 00:07:56.550 --> 00:07:58.559 inaccessible things to people that 280 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:00.359 no one could connect with. 281 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:02.699 Rather, I see my role in the public 282 00:08:02.700 --> 00:08:04.799 is to say history 283 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:06.389 has these great things for us to 284 00:08:06.390 --> 00:08:07.919 learn. And I'm going to give you a 285 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:09.809 little bit of it, and I'm going to 286 00:08:09.810 --> 00:08:11.489 hope that you come closer to it, 287 00:08:11.490 --> 00:08:13.049 because I've presented something 288 00:08:13.050 --> 00:08:15.329 that's accessible, that's relevant, 289 00:08:15.330 --> 00:08:16.709 that's exciting. 290 00:08:16.710 --> 00:08:18.749 And I think the reason 291 00:08:18.750 --> 00:08:20.249 why there's such a tension because 292 00:08:20.250 --> 00:08:21.239 so much of what we do in the 293 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:23.339 university is about a slow growth 294 00:08:23.340 --> 00:08:25.379 process and so much about media 295 00:08:25.380 --> 00:08:26.249 as being fast. 296 00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:28.289 But I don't think they have to be 297 00:08:28.290 --> 00:08:29.699 in conflict with each other. 298 00:08:29.700 --> 00:08:31.709 I think rather we have to 299 00:08:31.710 --> 00:08:34.229 use what the other has to offer 300 00:08:34.230 --> 00:08:35.668 to really provide people an 301 00:08:35.669 --> 00:08:37.979 opportunity to educate themselves 302 00:08:37.980 --> 00:08:39.479 if they don't have access to formal 303 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:40.480 education. 304 00:08:41.549 --> 00:08:43.168 And that's a great-- I mean, that 305 00:08:43.169 --> 00:08:44.939 reminds me exactly of some of the 306 00:08:44.940 --> 00:08:45.874 success of the hashtag 307 00:08:45.875 --> 00:08:46.875 FergusonSyllabus which you created. 308 00:08:47.760 --> 00:08:48.659 Could you just say a little bit 309 00:08:48.660 --> 00:08:50.039 about that and how that came about 310 00:08:50.040 --> 00:08:51.719 and what-- it's been about a year 311 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:52.949 and a half now since that. 312 00:08:52.950 --> 00:08:53.019 As you've watched it develop, what do you take from that? What were 313 00:08:53.020 --> 00:08:53.075 successes and 314 00:08:53.076 --> 00:08:54.777 things, and what are the other things that you could do based on that experience? 315 00:09:04.740 --> 00:09:07.049 #FergusonSyllabus was just my very 316 00:09:07.050 --> 00:09:09.269 small attempt to organize academics 317 00:09:09.270 --> 00:09:10.739 to devote the first day of classes 318 00:09:10.740 --> 00:09:12.239 to teaching about the tragedy in 319 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:13.199 Ferguson. 320 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:15.239 And it was my way of saying that 321 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:16.919 our students are being shaped by 322 00:09:16.920 --> 00:09:18.809 this moment and that they really 323 00:09:18.810 --> 00:09:20.519 need to use universities as a 324 00:09:20.520 --> 00:09:22.349 resource to understand the 325 00:09:22.350 --> 00:09:24.629 complexity of what Ferguson 326 00:09:24.630 --> 00:09:26.399 taught us as a nation and as a 327 00:09:26.400 --> 00:09:28.469 world. And so, in organizing 328 00:09:28.470 --> 00:09:30.149 academics to think critically about 329 00:09:30.150 --> 00:09:31.679 that issue, what was starting to 330 00:09:31.680 --> 00:09:33.449 happen is that people were forming a 331 00:09:33.450 --> 00:09:35.759 community around 332 00:09:35.760 --> 00:09:37.439 their identity as an educator, 333 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:39.149 whether it's on the college level or 334 00:09:39.150 --> 00:09:40.349 K-12 level. 335 00:09:40.350 --> 00:09:41.699 And it was, again, bridging that 336 00:09:41.700 --> 00:09:44.159 divide between those two worlds that 337 00:09:44.160 --> 00:09:45.989 rarely interact, but we still have 338 00:09:45.990 --> 00:09:47.159 the same interest. 339 00:09:47.160 --> 00:09:48.639 And it was also an opportunity to 340 00:09:48.640 --> 00:09:50.639 just say that the academic community 341 00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:52.739 has a role in this moment, 342 00:09:52.740 --> 00:09:55.319 that we don't wait for the moment to 343 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:57.149 fade, and then ten years later, we 344 00:09:57.150 --> 00:09:59.069 provide analysis. As it's 345 00:09:59.070 --> 00:10:00.899 unfolding, we provide the context, 346 00:10:00.900 --> 00:10:02.909 we provide the nuance, we provide 347 00:10:02.910 --> 00:10:04.889 the spaces for people to have the 348 00:10:04.890 --> 00:10:07.229 really good conversations about 349 00:10:07.230 --> 00:10:09.359 what scares them, what inspires 350 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:10.589 them, what confuses them. 351 00:10:10.590 --> 00:10:12.329 And so, one of the things that I 352 00:10:12.330 --> 00:10:14.369 found from #Ferguson 353 00:10:14.370 --> 00:10:17.369 Syllabus is that other academics 354 00:10:17.370 --> 00:10:19.799 now use Twitter as a space 355 00:10:19.800 --> 00:10:21.629 to organize around teaching 356 00:10:21.630 --> 00:10:22.589 on various issues. 357 00:10:22.590 --> 00:10:24.029 And so, if you go on Twitter right 358 00:10:24.030 --> 00:10:26.069 now, you can see CharlestonSyllabus, 359 00:10:26.070 --> 00:10:27.719 and you can see BaltimoreSyllabus 360 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:28.979 and ChicagoSyllabus. 361 00:10:28.980 --> 00:10:30.869 And it becomes a shorthand 362 00:10:30.870 --> 00:10:33.089 for a type of activist process 363 00:10:33.090 --> 00:10:34.769 of learning and sharing resources 364 00:10:34.770 --> 00:10:36.719 and information among 365 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:38.909 a wide community that we will never 366 00:10:38.910 --> 00:10:40.439 reach in a classroom - right? - 367 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:41.879 which is Twitter. 368 00:10:41.880 --> 00:10:43.051 Yeah. More than that. 369 00:10:43.052 --> 00:10:44.879 That effort actually 370 00:10:44.880 --> 00:10:46.259 developed to the point where there 371 00:10:46.260 --> 00:10:48.419 was a long list of books 372 00:10:48.420 --> 00:10:50.189 for people in a variety of different 373 00:10:50.190 --> 00:10:51.234 fields, and even in the sciences 374 00:10:51.235 --> 00:10:53.071 too, in the way 375 00:10:53.072 --> 00:10:54.072 the natural sciences engaged 376 00:10:55.410 --> 00:10:56.279 the topic too. 377 00:10:56.280 --> 00:10:58.139 So it expanded well even 378 00:10:58.140 --> 00:11:00.149 beyond kind of like subjects where 379 00:11:00.150 --> 00:11:01.979 you would initially think that the 380 00:11:01.980 --> 00:11:03.899 subject was was 381 00:11:03.900 --> 00:11:06.059 kind of a good fit. 382 00:11:06.060 --> 00:11:07.409 What I wanted to do was really 383 00:11:07.410 --> 00:11:08.729 disrupt the notion of the cast of 384 00:11:08.730 --> 00:11:09.869 characters, the people who 385 00:11:09.870 --> 00:11:11.609 definitely weigh in on these issues, 386 00:11:11.610 --> 00:11:12.959 and then the people who are allowed 387 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:14.969 to kind of stay in silence. 388 00:11:14.970 --> 00:11:16.109 And so, one of the things that I 389 00:11:16.110 --> 00:11:18.839 loved was getting 390 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:21.389 a tweet from a math professor 391 00:11:21.390 --> 00:11:23.519 whose students did analytics on how 392 00:11:23.520 --> 00:11:25.079 the hashtag was used and how it 393 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:26.489 spiked during certain periods of 394 00:11:26.490 --> 00:11:27.509 time. 395 00:11:27.510 --> 00:11:29.519 The number of teachers 396 00:11:29.520 --> 00:11:31.379 in the sciences who talk about tear 397 00:11:31.380 --> 00:11:33.299 gas and its uses 398 00:11:33.300 --> 00:11:34.529 against civilians and its 399 00:11:34.530 --> 00:11:36.389 consequences, the number of people 400 00:11:36.390 --> 00:11:38.009 who are in the architectural fields 401 00:11:38.010 --> 00:11:40.079 who wanted to talk about the built 402 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:41.699 environment, and what does it mean 403 00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:43.709 to be an exurb like Ferguson. 404 00:11:43.710 --> 00:11:46.259 All of these people are not 405 00:11:46.260 --> 00:11:47.939 the types of people who are called 406 00:11:47.940 --> 00:11:49.469 in during these moments, but they 407 00:11:49.470 --> 00:11:50.879 were demonstrating to their students 408 00:11:50.880 --> 00:11:52.289 that regardless of the topic you 409 00:11:52.290 --> 00:11:53.609 teach or the topic that your 410 00:11:53.610 --> 00:11:55.469 interest, you have 411 00:11:55.470 --> 00:11:57.329 a responsibility in these moments 412 00:11:57.330 --> 00:11:59.249 to use your academic training to 413 00:11:59.250 --> 00:12:01.289 think deeply about 414 00:12:01.290 --> 00:12:02.909 a very complex issue. 415 00:12:02.910 --> 00:12:04.979 And that was really exciting to see 416 00:12:04.980 --> 00:12:06.929 the true interdisciplinary 417 00:12:06.930 --> 00:12:07.944 nature of Ferguson Syllabus. 418 00:12:09.899 --> 00:12:11.789 Yeah. Well, one of the other even 419 00:12:11.790 --> 00:12:13.739 more recent kind of places where 420 00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:15.659 you've had a chance to kind of talk 421 00:12:15.660 --> 00:12:17.759 about kind of issues 422 00:12:17.760 --> 00:12:19.349 in the university this type of 423 00:12:19.350 --> 00:12:20.819 broader social issues of your 424 00:12:20.820 --> 00:12:22.649 position as a faculty member 425 00:12:22.650 --> 00:12:23.460 is at Missouri. 426 00:12:23.461 --> 00:12:24.779 At your alma mater. 427 00:12:24.780 --> 00:12:26.849 And in just last November, 428 00:12:26.850 --> 00:12:27.839 you published in the Chronicle of 429 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:29.759 Higher Education a piece about 430 00:12:29.760 --> 00:12:31.589 your experience there. 431 00:12:31.590 --> 00:12:33.509 And you talked about the activist 432 00:12:33.510 --> 00:12:35.459 group, Concerned Student 1950, 433 00:12:35.460 --> 00:12:37.319 and some of your own 434 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:38.909 experiences in the late nineties 435 00:12:38.910 --> 00:12:41.489 when you were a student there 436 00:12:41.490 --> 00:12:42.490 in Columbia. When 437 00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:46.379 you look back now 438 00:12:46.380 --> 00:12:47.639 at that movement 439 00:12:48.750 --> 00:12:50.039 and in your experience, how do you 440 00:12:50.040 --> 00:12:51.149 compare the two? 441 00:12:51.150 --> 00:12:53.009 What they were going through 442 00:12:53.010 --> 00:12:55.559 and are still fighting for there, 443 00:12:55.560 --> 00:12:57.224 and what your experience was when 444 00:12:57.225 --> 00:12:58.225 you were there. 445 00:12:58.530 --> 00:13:00.239 One of the ways that I look at it is 446 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.159 that student activism 447 00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:04.199 organizing has changed a little 448 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:05.489 bit, maybe around the central 449 00:13:05.490 --> 00:13:07.829 issues, maybe the strategies. 450 00:13:07.830 --> 00:13:09.449 But what has changed is that the 451 00:13:09.450 --> 00:13:11.279 platform for student organizing 452 00:13:11.280 --> 00:13:13.499 has fundamentally 453 00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:14.995 been uprooted by social media. 454 00:13:14.996 --> 00:13:16.859 And so, the struggles are 455 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:18.149 the same, the questions are the 456 00:13:18.150 --> 00:13:19.949 same, the challenges are the same. 457 00:13:19.950 --> 00:13:21.899 But now, I like to think of it as 458 00:13:21.900 --> 00:13:23.819 a giant megaphone that can 459 00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:25.019 now be amplified. 460 00:13:25.020 --> 00:13:26.369 And so, when I think about student 461 00:13:26.370 --> 00:13:28.229 organizing in the late nineties 462 00:13:28.230 --> 00:13:29.739 when I was a student who was working 463 00:13:29.740 --> 00:13:31.859 around the issue of hate crimes, 464 00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:34.169 for us to get media attention, 465 00:13:34.170 --> 00:13:35.789 it required us to write a press 466 00:13:35.790 --> 00:13:37.979 release, maybe send it over email, 467 00:13:37.980 --> 00:13:40.169 hold a press conference, really 468 00:13:40.170 --> 00:13:42.029 hope that the state 469 00:13:42.030 --> 00:13:44.399 media would come and 470 00:13:44.400 --> 00:13:45.809 ask us questions. 471 00:13:45.810 --> 00:13:47.399 For us to organize with students 472 00:13:47.400 --> 00:13:49.439 from different campuses was a huge 473 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:50.849 coordination effort. 474 00:13:50.850 --> 00:13:52.229 And now I see students at the 475 00:13:52.230 --> 00:13:53.579 University of Missouri, who are 476 00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:55.109 asking some of the similar questions 477 00:13:55.110 --> 00:13:57.179 we were asking in the nineties, now 478 00:13:57.180 --> 00:13:59.879 have an opportunity to 479 00:13:59.880 --> 00:14:01.949 tell their story, to control 480 00:14:01.950 --> 00:14:03.929 the narrative in many ways, and 481 00:14:03.930 --> 00:14:05.849 then to create a reaction 482 00:14:05.850 --> 00:14:07.949 which students from campuses 483 00:14:07.950 --> 00:14:09.959 that don't know where Missouri is-- 484 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:11.879 will never set foot in Columbia 485 00:14:11.880 --> 00:14:13.859 can now organize in solidarity 486 00:14:13.860 --> 00:14:15.839 with them. That is amazing. 487 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:17.729 And so, I think that student 488 00:14:17.730 --> 00:14:19.709 activism, 489 00:14:19.710 --> 00:14:21.209 the tools of organizing, and the 490 00:14:21.210 --> 00:14:23.129 tools to get your message out 491 00:14:23.130 --> 00:14:24.277 have fundamentally changed, then, 492 00:14:25.590 --> 00:14:27.929 the process in which universities 493 00:14:27.930 --> 00:14:29.519 engage student activists. 494 00:14:29.520 --> 00:14:31.229 So it's a whole new world in some 495 00:14:31.230 --> 00:14:33.149 ways, but I think at the core 496 00:14:33.150 --> 00:14:35.369 of it is this idea that 497 00:14:35.370 --> 00:14:37.289 colleges and universities have to 498 00:14:37.290 --> 00:14:38.118 be something different. 499 00:14:38.119 --> 00:14:40.139 That we know the challenges 500 00:14:40.140 --> 00:14:41.789 of the outside world, but we do 501 00:14:41.790 --> 00:14:43.889 something here that is distinctly 502 00:14:43.890 --> 00:14:45.389 different and, I think, distinctly 503 00:14:45.390 --> 00:14:46.289 hopeful. 504 00:14:46.290 --> 00:14:47.969 And when our universities and our 505 00:14:47.970 --> 00:14:50.699 colleges fail to meet that promise, 506 00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:52.649 this is the core of 507 00:14:52.650 --> 00:14:54.599 activism among students and 508 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:56.819 among the various constituent 509 00:14:56.820 --> 00:14:57.869 groups. And so, I think it's a 510 00:14:57.870 --> 00:14:59.729 really exciting thing to see 511 00:14:59.730 --> 00:15:00.989 how effective students at the 512 00:15:00.990 --> 00:15:03.089 University of Missouri have 513 00:15:03.090 --> 00:15:05.489 been in creating a platform 514 00:15:05.490 --> 00:15:07.409 in which to tell a narrative of 515 00:15:07.410 --> 00:15:09.119 the college experience. 516 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:10.529 And at the same time, it's kind of 517 00:15:10.530 --> 00:15:12.269 heartbreaking to think of how little 518 00:15:12.270 --> 00:15:14.969 has changed in that period of time. 519 00:15:14.970 --> 00:15:16.939 Yeah. I mean, on one hand, 520 00:15:18.540 --> 00:15:19.679 the quick results with the 521 00:15:19.680 --> 00:15:21.809 resignation of Tim Wolfe and 522 00:15:21.810 --> 00:15:23.221 then kind of the programs being put 523 00:15:23.222 --> 00:15:24.599 in place and things like that, these 524 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:26.519 are things, perhaps, that 525 00:15:26.520 --> 00:15:28.319 would not have been as easy to 526 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:29.320 achieve. 527 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.859 But before, it was so 528 00:15:31.860 --> 00:15:33.479 easy to make a story, a local story, 529 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:34.480 a national story. 530 00:15:36.420 --> 00:15:38.489 There's some question that remains 531 00:15:38.490 --> 00:15:40.559 about, like are the resignation 532 00:15:40.560 --> 00:15:42.047 or the programs things that are 533 00:15:42.048 --> 00:15:42.899 really going to address what the 534 00:15:42.900 --> 00:15:44.489 core of the problem is? 535 00:15:44.490 --> 00:15:45.689 And I think that's when we move back 536 00:15:45.690 --> 00:15:46.919 to the humanities. 537 00:15:46.920 --> 00:15:48.839 I think that deeper engagement 538 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:50.729 into the narratives that come out of 539 00:15:50.730 --> 00:15:52.199 the humanities, the research that 540 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:54.089 comes out of the humanities, the 541 00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:55.799 problem-solving approaches that come 542 00:15:55.800 --> 00:15:57.539 out of the humanities, that's the 543 00:15:57.540 --> 00:15:58.949 way forward. This is how we dig 544 00:15:58.950 --> 00:16:00.899 ourselves out of any kind 545 00:16:00.900 --> 00:16:01.799 of problem. 546 00:16:01.800 --> 00:16:03.329 The question is, will there be an 547 00:16:03.330 --> 00:16:05.189 investment in those ways 548 00:16:05.190 --> 00:16:07.109 of thinking as a 549 00:16:07.110 --> 00:16:08.729 practical tool the way that we think 550 00:16:08.730 --> 00:16:09.909 of the sciences? 551 00:16:09.910 --> 00:16:10.799 Yeah. 552 00:16:10.800 --> 00:16:12.599 It's a really interesting point. 553 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:13.769 I want to ask you a little bit about 554 00:16:13.770 --> 00:16:15.719 your research and, 555 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:17.219 in particular, the book Southide 556 00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:19.019 Girls, which I really enjoyed 557 00:16:19.020 --> 00:16:20.039 getting a chance to read [crosstalk]. 558 00:16:20.040 --> 00:16:21.709 Oh, thank you. 559 00:16:21.710 --> 00:16:23.009 And I wanted to ask you about-- you 560 00:16:23.010 --> 00:16:23.934 mentioned kind of the humanities, 561 00:16:23.935 --> 00:16:26.129 and in your work-- so your 562 00:16:26.130 --> 00:16:27.989 background is in-- you have 563 00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:29.459 bachelor's degrees in journalism and 564 00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:30.479 religious studies. 565 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:32.009 Your doctorate is in American 566 00:16:32.010 --> 00:16:33.929 civilization, so it's explicitly 567 00:16:33.930 --> 00:16:34.829 kind of an interdisciplinary 568 00:16:34.830 --> 00:16:36.089 program. Now, you're in the 569 00:16:36.090 --> 00:16:37.349 Department of History. 570 00:16:37.350 --> 00:16:39.569 When you think of the humanities, 571 00:16:39.570 --> 00:16:41.129 what does that mean for you in your 572 00:16:41.130 --> 00:16:42.389 work? 573 00:16:42.390 --> 00:16:43.859 Is it an important part of how you 574 00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:44.860 think about the work that you do? 575 00:16:45.990 --> 00:16:47.309 I think everything comes down to 576 00:16:47.310 --> 00:16:49.139 story. And even though 577 00:16:49.140 --> 00:16:50.639 I did not pursue my dreams of 578 00:16:50.640 --> 00:16:52.619 becoming a journalist, journalism, 579 00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:53.765 at the core, is about telling a 580 00:16:53.766 --> 00:16:55.919 story in a way that 581 00:16:55.920 --> 00:16:58.109 compels people to 582 00:16:58.110 --> 00:16:59.039 stay with you. 583 00:16:59.040 --> 00:17:00.899 And I think that in 584 00:17:00.900 --> 00:17:02.789 the era of online journalism, 585 00:17:02.790 --> 00:17:04.709 keeping people's attention, keeping 586 00:17:04.710 --> 00:17:06.659 them connected, actually moving 587 00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:08.519 them towards action are the ways 588 00:17:08.520 --> 00:17:09.629 that we try to frame that story. 589 00:17:09.630 --> 00:17:11.848 Right? So I went from training 590 00:17:11.849 --> 00:17:13.709 about the stories 591 00:17:13.710 --> 00:17:15.719 in journalism and then 592 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:17.939 adding on to that religious studies, 593 00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:19.649 which are about deep stories about 594 00:17:19.650 --> 00:17:20.519 meaning. Right? 595 00:17:20.520 --> 00:17:22.318 People searching for this. 596 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.209 And then going into a 597 00:17:24.210 --> 00:17:26.279 PhD program that is about 598 00:17:26.280 --> 00:17:28.709 telling a story from many lenses. 599 00:17:28.710 --> 00:17:29.699 And now, being in a history 600 00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:31.619 department where I'm 601 00:17:31.620 --> 00:17:32.669 trying to help my students 602 00:17:32.670 --> 00:17:34.589 understand that many 603 00:17:34.590 --> 00:17:36.479 stories can be happening at the same 604 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:38.519 time and that what we do 605 00:17:38.520 --> 00:17:41.069 in history isn't to 606 00:17:41.070 --> 00:17:42.389 dispense facts. 607 00:17:42.390 --> 00:17:43.769 We actually are providing an 608 00:17:43.770 --> 00:17:45.689 opportunity to learn about a frame. 609 00:17:45.690 --> 00:17:47.459 And so, one of the examples I always 610 00:17:47.460 --> 00:17:49.409 use to my students is that if 611 00:17:49.410 --> 00:17:50.729 we tell the story of the Montgomery 612 00:17:50.730 --> 00:17:52.589 bus boycott, one frame 613 00:17:52.590 --> 00:17:55.019 says there was this bus boycott 614 00:17:55.020 --> 00:17:57.629 in Alabama, and Martin Luther King 615 00:17:57.630 --> 00:17:58.979 came in as a leader. 616 00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:00.299 That's one frame. 617 00:18:00.300 --> 00:18:02.129 You can tell that story by saying 618 00:18:02.130 --> 00:18:03.929 Rosa Parks was this activist with 619 00:18:03.930 --> 00:18:05.849 deep roots from the 1940s. 620 00:18:05.850 --> 00:18:07.889 She settled in Birmingham, 621 00:18:07.890 --> 00:18:09.149 and she did Martin Luther King a 622 00:18:09.150 --> 00:18:11.039 favor by letting him be in charge 623 00:18:11.040 --> 00:18:11.879 of a bus boycott. 624 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:13.589 Right. Both of those are accurate 625 00:18:13.590 --> 00:18:15.509 tellings of the same moment, 626 00:18:15.510 --> 00:18:17.219 but it's about how you're framing a 627 00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:19.259 story. And so, when I think 628 00:18:19.260 --> 00:18:21.599 about my academic work, I always 629 00:18:21.600 --> 00:18:23.579 think, whose frame 630 00:18:23.580 --> 00:18:25.529 am I going to use to 631 00:18:25.530 --> 00:18:27.599 tell a really good story 632 00:18:27.600 --> 00:18:29.129 about the past? 633 00:18:29.130 --> 00:18:31.019 And then I think about that 634 00:18:31.020 --> 00:18:33.149 frame and say, "How come 635 00:18:33.150 --> 00:18:35.039 we haven't heard this framing 636 00:18:35.040 --> 00:18:36.869 before?" And engaging those 637 00:18:36.870 --> 00:18:38.759 two questions allows me to 638 00:18:38.760 --> 00:18:40.109 do the type of scholarship that 639 00:18:40.110 --> 00:18:41.999 makes me super excited about 640 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:42.779 history. 641 00:18:42.780 --> 00:18:44.339 Well, that and this kind of-- you're 642 00:18:44.340 --> 00:18:45.599 talking about why haven't we heard 643 00:18:45.600 --> 00:18:46.979 about this frame before? 644 00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:47.980 It seems like 645 00:18:49.320 --> 00:18:51.059 the work that you did in South 646 00:18:51.060 --> 00:18:52.499 Central was bring out the story of 647 00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:54.359 the story of African American girls 648 00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:55.590 in the first wave of the Great 649 00:18:55.591 --> 00:18:56.591 Migration. It was 650 00:18:57.870 --> 00:18:59.729 exactly that. You were giving voice 651 00:18:59.730 --> 00:19:01.679 to this kind of group of people that 652 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.529 traditionally had not had a voice 653 00:19:03.530 --> 00:19:04.919 on the historical record. 654 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:06.989 And that seems too to be-- 655 00:19:06.990 --> 00:19:08.939 some of the reviews-- in the review 656 00:19:08.940 --> 00:19:10.949 of Til Death 657 00:19:10.950 --> 00:19:11.943 or Distance Do us Part that you 658 00:19:11.944 --> 00:19:13.079 wrote that seems to be the thing 659 00:19:13.080 --> 00:19:14.643 that you valued about that book too. 660 00:19:14.644 --> 00:19:16.589 And it was giving a kind of a more 661 00:19:16.590 --> 00:19:18.449 complex story to one that we've 662 00:19:18.450 --> 00:19:19.829 had in the past. 663 00:19:19.830 --> 00:19:21.689 When I set out to do my book, 664 00:19:21.690 --> 00:19:23.909 I thought to myself often, 665 00:19:23.910 --> 00:19:25.529 "Do we need another Great Migration 666 00:19:25.530 --> 00:19:27.389 book?" There's plenty of great 667 00:19:27.390 --> 00:19:28.379 ones out there. 668 00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:30.209 And at the same time, 669 00:19:30.210 --> 00:19:32.249 after my book came out, people 670 00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:34.349 said, "I never thought about 671 00:19:34.350 --> 00:19:35.399 this population. 672 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.109 I never thought that there was a 673 00:19:37.110 --> 00:19:38.669 question that was still embedded in 674 00:19:38.670 --> 00:19:39.989 this thing that we thought we knew 675 00:19:39.990 --> 00:19:42.149 everything about." And that is the 676 00:19:42.150 --> 00:19:44.249 exciting discovery part of history. 677 00:19:44.250 --> 00:19:46.469 That's why it's wonderful 678 00:19:46.470 --> 00:19:47.249 to teach history. 679 00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:48.749 It's wonderful to advise graduate 680 00:19:48.750 --> 00:19:50.879 students in history because 681 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:52.469 after we've thought we've figured 682 00:19:52.470 --> 00:19:54.149 everything out, there is still 683 00:19:54.150 --> 00:19:56.219 something there that allows 684 00:19:56.220 --> 00:19:57.809 us to be so expansive in our 685 00:19:57.810 --> 00:19:59.969 thinking that 686 00:19:59.970 --> 00:20:01.679 after it's done, you think to 687 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:03.059 yourself, "I can't believe I ever 688 00:20:03.060 --> 00:20:04.589 thought about this moment without 689 00:20:04.590 --> 00:20:05.590 this idea." 690 00:20:07.230 --> 00:20:08.519 Yeah. One of the things that's 691 00:20:08.520 --> 00:20:10.019 really interesting to me about your 692 00:20:10.020 --> 00:20:11.609 book is that you acknowledge a 693 00:20:11.610 --> 00:20:13.409 number of-- so that the 694 00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:15.179 accomplishment is that giving voice 695 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:16.679 to this group of people that hasn't 696 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:18.599 traditionally had one. 697 00:20:18.600 --> 00:20:19.439 You bring up a number of 698 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:21.959 difficulties in that effort. 699 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:23.099 So when you want to do that, when 700 00:20:23.100 --> 00:20:24.809 you want to write about-- and you 701 00:20:24.810 --> 00:20:26.003 say when you write about African 702 00:20:26.004 --> 00:20:27.329 American life and culture, you're 703 00:20:27.330 --> 00:20:30.119 writing about a group that is not a 704 00:20:30.120 --> 00:20:30.989 dominant group. So it's already kind of 705 00:20:30.990 --> 00:20:31.990 not as much 706 00:20:33.060 --> 00:20:34.371 of a trace in history from that 707 00:20:34.372 --> 00:20:35.939 group. You're writing about a subset 708 00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:37.319 that doesn't have much of a voice, 709 00:20:37.320 --> 00:20:39.269 even within that non-dominant 710 00:20:39.270 --> 00:20:40.259 group. 711 00:20:40.260 --> 00:20:41.932 How did you go about kind of 712 00:20:41.933 --> 00:20:43.789 overcoming these? 713 00:20:43.790 --> 00:20:44.609 It seems like it takes a lot to 714 00:20:44.610 --> 00:20:44.909 creativity [crosstalk]. 715 00:20:44.910 --> 00:20:46.799 It's terrible as 716 00:20:46.800 --> 00:20:48.719 a scholar because you have 717 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:50.489 a hunch, and you want to do this 718 00:20:50.490 --> 00:20:51.719 project. And you're thinking to 719 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:53.039 yourself, "How am I going to figure 720 00:20:53.040 --> 00:20:54.420 this out." And that's again, 721 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:57.089 I have friends who are management 722 00:20:57.090 --> 00:20:58.349 consultants, and they have to figure 723 00:20:58.350 --> 00:21:00.059 out problems for corporations. 724 00:21:00.060 --> 00:21:01.679 And how often I say, "I figure out 725 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.779 problems for the historical record." 726 00:21:03.780 --> 00:21:05.249 And it's the same kind of thing. 727 00:21:05.250 --> 00:21:06.359 It's research. 728 00:21:06.360 --> 00:21:08.279 It's making connections where 729 00:21:08.280 --> 00:21:10.529 they're not seemingly there. 730 00:21:10.530 --> 00:21:12.479 And so, to write a book about 731 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.309 a population that struggles with 732 00:21:14.310 --> 00:21:15.869 the question of literacy and access 733 00:21:15.870 --> 00:21:17.729 to power, I had to 734 00:21:17.730 --> 00:21:19.709 kind of go 735 00:21:19.710 --> 00:21:21.479 back and think about the different 736 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:23.099 institutions that intersected with 737 00:21:23.100 --> 00:21:25.949 girls, who ran those institutions, 738 00:21:25.950 --> 00:21:27.479 what kind of record keeping they 739 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:29.339 had, and could I get access 740 00:21:29.340 --> 00:21:30.119 to those records? 741 00:21:30.120 --> 00:21:32.129 And so, the big archival 742 00:21:32.130 --> 00:21:34.199 discovery that 743 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:36.869 allowed my book to take place 744 00:21:36.870 --> 00:21:38.729 happened because I started 745 00:21:38.730 --> 00:21:40.859 to think to myself, "Surely 746 00:21:40.860 --> 00:21:42.839 I wasn't the first person to ever 747 00:21:42.840 --> 00:21:44.265 come up with this idea of African 748 00:21:44.266 --> 00:21:46.259 American girlhood." And it wasn't 749 00:21:46.260 --> 00:21:47.579 until I went back to look at 750 00:21:47.580 --> 00:21:49.559 dissertations and master's thesis 751 00:21:49.560 --> 00:21:51.149 from the thirties and forties that 752 00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:52.186 there was this great archive. 753 00:21:52.187 --> 00:21:54.029 These items were never 754 00:21:54.030 --> 00:21:55.499 published, but the research was 755 00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:57.089 there. I had to kind of get over 756 00:21:57.090 --> 00:21:58.769 myself and say, "Oh, I didn't invent 757 00:21:58.770 --> 00:22:00.599 this idea?" Other people had 758 00:22:00.600 --> 00:22:01.949 this question. 759 00:22:01.950 --> 00:22:03.869 It just didn't have a platform to be 760 00:22:03.870 --> 00:22:05.879 answered broadly and widely. 761 00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:08.309 And then, the second thing was 762 00:22:08.310 --> 00:22:10.019 one of the reasons why I thought 763 00:22:10.020 --> 00:22:11.459 this project was harder than it 764 00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:13.319 maybe should have been was 765 00:22:13.320 --> 00:22:15.599 because so many people hadn't 766 00:22:15.600 --> 00:22:17.639 consulted the materials on girls 767 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:18.599 that I just thought they didn't 768 00:22:18.600 --> 00:22:19.439 exist. 769 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:20.939 And one of the things that I often 770 00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:22.199 say about my book, I don't know if 771 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:23.489 it's good or bad, but I do know 772 00:22:23.490 --> 00:22:26.189 this. It gives an opportunity 773 00:22:26.190 --> 00:22:28.289 to show what happens when 774 00:22:28.290 --> 00:22:30.119 we are open-minded about what 775 00:22:30.120 --> 00:22:31.109 is possible in history. 776 00:22:31.110 --> 00:22:32.939 And I think that its archival 777 00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:33.956 contribution is 778 00:22:35.010 --> 00:22:37.229 its strongest thing because 779 00:22:37.230 --> 00:22:39.119 it says, "Oh, just because 780 00:22:39.120 --> 00:22:41.039 you looked up on JSTOR and Google 781 00:22:41.040 --> 00:22:42.869 and someone didn't cite something, 782 00:22:42.870 --> 00:22:44.519 it doesn't mean it's there." And 783 00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:46.469 then it turns the question back onto 784 00:22:46.470 --> 00:22:48.389 itself. Why didn't anyone think of 785 00:22:48.390 --> 00:22:49.390 this? 786 00:22:49.930 --> 00:22:51.539 Yeah. And one of the other things, 787 00:22:51.540 --> 00:22:52.649 too, is that you, at times for 788 00:22:52.650 --> 00:22:54.989 example, thinking of 789 00:22:54.990 --> 00:22:56.011 the E. 790 00:22:56.012 --> 00:22:57.989 Franklin Frazier book, 791 00:22:57.990 --> 00:23:00.029 The Negro Family in Chicago, 792 00:23:00.030 --> 00:23:01.949 there are some cases where you need 793 00:23:01.950 --> 00:23:03.059 to go back in your book and kind of 794 00:23:03.060 --> 00:23:04.755 rewrite some of the sources. 795 00:23:04.756 --> 00:23:06.689 Because his 796 00:23:06.690 --> 00:23:08.489 frame was one where he was writing 797 00:23:08.490 --> 00:23:10.439 specifically about the value of 798 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:12.119 the patriarchal family structure, 799 00:23:12.120 --> 00:23:14.549 which kept the interviews 800 00:23:14.550 --> 00:23:16.439 that he did 801 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:18.151 from allowing these voices of the 802 00:23:18.152 --> 00:23:19.619 girls to kind of come through it in 803 00:23:19.620 --> 00:23:20.959 his full way as they could have. 804 00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:22.109 And so, it's a different kind of-- 805 00:23:22.110 --> 00:23:23.789 it's not like the voices are lost. 806 00:23:23.790 --> 00:23:24.689 It's just that they're not being 807 00:23:24.690 --> 00:23:25.079 told they-- 808 00:23:25.080 --> 00:23:26.369 They just weren't being used. 809 00:23:26.370 --> 00:23:27.069 That's right. Yeah. 810 00:23:27.070 --> 00:23:29.459 And that's weird, right? 811 00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:30.929 Because Frazier was such an 812 00:23:30.930 --> 00:23:31.930 outstanding scholar, 813 00:23:32.850 --> 00:23:34.139 regardless of what you think of his 814 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:34.919 views. 815 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:36.839 And so, when I looked at 816 00:23:36.840 --> 00:23:38.489 Negro Family in Chicago, A Negro 817 00:23:38.490 --> 00:23:40.409 Family in the U.S., there's so few 818 00:23:40.410 --> 00:23:42.239 references to girls 819 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.739 that I thought this was the final 820 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:45.569 story. And it wasn't until I went to 821 00:23:45.570 --> 00:23:47.399 the actual archive, that 822 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:49.379 I discovered, Oh, he had interviewed 823 00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:50.399 all these girls. He just didn't 824 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:51.509 think it was important. 825 00:23:51.510 --> 00:23:53.729 And I think that that is part of 826 00:23:53.730 --> 00:23:55.559 what history pushes us 827 00:23:55.560 --> 00:23:56.849 to do. Right. 828 00:23:56.850 --> 00:23:58.829 We can decide who and what 829 00:23:58.830 --> 00:24:01.289 is important, not necessarily 830 00:24:01.290 --> 00:24:02.609 the people who are publishing or 831 00:24:02.610 --> 00:24:03.779 other historians. 832 00:24:03.780 --> 00:24:05.489 And it's those interventions that, 833 00:24:05.490 --> 00:24:07.109 you know, make me super excited 834 00:24:07.110 --> 00:24:08.939 again to do this type 835 00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:10.359 of work. Yeah. 836 00:24:10.360 --> 00:24:12.419 But I also want to ask you about 837 00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:13.889 kind of one thing I noticed about 838 00:24:13.890 --> 00:24:14.890 the book 839 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:17.579 is that it's framed I don't 840 00:24:18.580 --> 00:24:21.019 t's framed with the Obamas. 841 00:24:21.020 --> 00:24:22.979 The very first s 842 00:24:22.980 --> 00:24:25.499 shave to do with their family. 843 00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:27.359 I wonder if you could just tell 844 00:24:27.360 --> 00:24:29.279 us because I love the story so 845 00:24:29.280 --> 00:24:31.289 muchthe story you open the book with 846 00:24:31.290 --> 00:24:32.789 about your work with the Girl Scouts 847 00:24:32.790 --> 00:24:33.569 in Oklahoma. 848 00:24:33.570 --> 00:24:35.459 And when you brought up the 849 00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:37.409 Obamas and particularly Sasha and 850 00:24:37.410 --> 00:24:38.010 They like lost it. 851 00:24:38.011 --> 00:24:39.011 ell 852 00:24:39.840 --> 00:24:41.169 us that story, and then why was it 853 00:24:41.170 --> 00:24:43.019 that it was so important for you? 854 00:24:44.310 --> 00:25:00.711 So a few things. I started this project before there were Obamas. And I often tell people that because I think when you're in graduate school, especially when you're doing a Ph.D. in history, it can just seem endless and kind of terribleecause you just don't know where this is going to land. Yeah. And other fields as well. It's super terrible. But so you start a project because you have an inkling, you have a hunchomething is important to you and you follow it through and you don't know how the times are going to shift to accommodate the possibility of your work. So when I first started writing this book, there was no Michelle Obama on a national stage. There was no AfricanAmerican first familyThere were no spokespeople for the outhide of Chicago the way that the Obamas 855 00:25:30.390 --> 00:25:48.282 were. But there was this interest that I was just kind of plugging along with. And then when the world kind of knew the Obama family, everything changed. Our framing of Chicago, our framing of the South ide, or understanding of the deep impact of reat igration cities. Everything changes. And so I talk about this experience of volunteering with girls where I used to teach because for me, I was thinking about a world in which these girls knew nothing but the Obamas. Rightnd how this fundamentally changes ideas of AfricanAmerican people, of AfricanAmerican women and men. And for them to have two daughters, these AfricanAmerican girls now have a different relationship to girlhood. And it's just because these people are who they are. And so after the election, I did a little current events thing with them. And I say, ho's the president and who's 856 00:26:25.140 --> 00:26:41.793 the first dog? I saho are the first daughters? And they like lose it because Sasha and Malia to them is so emblematic of how they want to see themselves in the world. And here are these two little girls and they have their cute little coats and they're at the inauguration. And seeing this fundamentally changes everything, just like the Obamas existing fundamentally changes everythingrom my research I had no hand in it. I mean, I voted for him, but I had no hand in that. The mes can shift and then your scholarship shifts. I think about all of those people and you might have known some who studied Arabic before 911 and everyone thought, How weird is that? Who's going to ever need someone who speaks Arabic to do anything? And then the national and international dialog changes. And then 857 00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:31.597 there's a need for people who speak Arabic, who understand different cultures. Nothing changed in that person, right? But the climate changes. And so when I was thinking about a title for the book after I saw Mrs. Obama introduce herself in her little documentary piece during the Democratic National Convention, and she called it Southide Girl. I said, kay. Stop the presses. I've got a new title for the book. And I wanted to end on the complicated note of what it means for AfricanAmerican girls today to live in a world in which the Obamas exist. But we also see the persistent legacy of racism, of inequalityand of poverty. And so I end with Mrs. Obama giving a eulogy for a girl who's killed in an instance of gun violence on the south side of Chicago. And to really kind of link the hopefulness of Mrs. Obama's 858 00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:13.996 entry into the national stage, but also the very seriousness of the role that she has to play in a world that we still haven't seen yet world in which girls can live free from harm and free from danger and really able to project all of their full possibilities into the world. 859 00:28:28.810 --> 00:28:32.968 Yeah, it's a complicated endingI mean Michelle Obama identifying herself with the young girl who was killed in Chicago is one that symbolizes kind of progress and in so many ways a lack of progress. 860 00:28:45.730 --> 00:29:01.963 Exactly. And I think that's the thing that is hard. Sometimes there's an impulseI think within my field to make these hopeful stories because there is so much hope. But one of the reasons why I love the reflections of girls from Great Migration, Chicago, is that everything is complicated. They're leaving the South for a better life in the North, and then they get there and it's not quite what they wanted it to be. And I think that that ambivalence, those mixed emotions, I think they're so embedded in college, too. And what I see in my students. You're super excited to get to collegehen you have to go and do it. It's like being a professor. You're really excited to get a job and they're like, Oh noctually have to do this job now and I have to do it well and I have 861 00:29:24.730 --> 00:29:37.981 to care and I have to show up. It's the hopefulness and it's the promise. And when it happens, it's so beautiful. When we get students to where they want to be, it's amazing. And when the experience falls short or when we fail them, it's devastating. And I think for many of these girls leaving the South to pursue this new opportunity of a greater sense of freedom was amazing. But the reality of what Chicago was like for a girl during the Great Migration is also crushing. And so I think that in order to appreciate the depth of history, we have to allow for the possibility that both of these things can exist at the same time. 862 00:30:03.230 --> 00:30:11.441 Yeah, well, I would say that's one of the things too, for me in reading your book that really came through is that kind of all of the hope and the promise that existed in that migration. It was stronger in your work because you never lost sight of the fact that there was a lot of disappointment, hardship and things like that. So I really enjoyed the chance to hanks so much for joining us. 863 00:30:26.980 --> 00:30:28.149 Thank you. 864 00:30:28.150 --> 00:30:29.439 It's my pleasure. 865 00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:30.440 And 866 00:30:32.470 --> 00:30:33.669 that's it for this edition of the 867 00:30:33.670 --> 00:30:35.349 Year of Humanities podcast. 868 00:30:35.350 --> 00:30:36.489 For more information on the Year of 869 00:30:36.490 --> 00:30:38.169 the Humanities, visit our website at 870 00:30:38.170 --> 00:30:39.170 humanities.pitt.edu. 871 00:30:40.930 --> 00:30:41.930 Thanks for listening.
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