WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.789 --> 00:00:03.659 Hello and welcome to the fifth 2 00:00:03.660 --> 00:00:04.979 installment of the University of 3 00:00:04.980 --> 00:00:06.899 Pittsburgh Humanities podcast, a 4 00:00:06.900 --> 00:00:08.309 series devoted to exploring the 5 00:00:08.310 --> 00:00:10.169 humanities, their intersections with 6 00:00:10.170 --> 00:00:11.789 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:11.790 --> 00:00:13.289 in the public world. 8 00:00:13.290 --> 00:00:14.939 I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of 9 00:00:14.940 --> 00:00:16.079 the Humanities Center at Pitt. 10 00:00:19.050 --> 00:00:20.669 My guest today is Peter Holland, the 11 00:00:20.670 --> 00:00:22.289 McMeel Family Chair in Shakespeare 12 00:00:22.290 --> 00:00:23.729 Studies at the University of Notre 13 00:00:23.730 --> 00:00:24.329 Dame. 14 00:00:24.330 --> 00:00:26.639 I see one of my responsibilities 15 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:28.379 as an educator within the university 16 00:00:28.380 --> 00:00:30.179 and a humanities educator within the 17 00:00:30.180 --> 00:00:32.008 university of giving people a 18 00:00:32.009 --> 00:00:33.899 kind of habit and 19 00:00:33.900 --> 00:00:35.129 a need. 20 00:00:35.130 --> 00:00:37.019 I need to go 21 00:00:37.020 --> 00:00:38.639 to theater regularly. 22 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:41.009 I need to watch movies regularly. 23 00:00:41.010 --> 00:00:42.869 I need, beyond my own areas 24 00:00:42.870 --> 00:00:44.759 of direct interest, to go to art 25 00:00:44.760 --> 00:00:46.679 galleries regularly and to listen 26 00:00:46.680 --> 00:00:48.689 to symphony orchestras regularly. 27 00:00:48.690 --> 00:00:50.099 And without that, I get a kind of 28 00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:52.019 withdrawal symptom in which 29 00:00:52.020 --> 00:00:53.939 I need the experience of blowing 30 00:00:53.940 --> 00:00:55.859 my mind through encountering 31 00:00:55.860 --> 00:00:57.659 that kind of art experience 32 00:00:57.660 --> 00:00:59.369 somewhere somehow. 33 00:00:59.370 --> 00:01:00.449 Professor Holland is one of the 34 00:01:00.450 --> 00:01:02.279 leading critics of Shakespeare and 35 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:03.389 Performance and is published on 36 00:01:03.390 --> 00:01:04.768 Shakespeare in a wide variety of 37 00:01:04.769 --> 00:01:06.449 formats, including scholarly 38 00:01:06.450 --> 00:01:08.519 journals, books, dictionary 39 00:01:08.520 --> 00:01:10.979 entries, and theater programs. 40 00:01:10.980 --> 00:01:12.269 He's also edited several of 41 00:01:12.270 --> 00:01:13.709 Shakespeare's plays in print and 42 00:01:13.710 --> 00:01:15.599 online and was recently named one 43 00:01:15.600 --> 00:01:17.129 of the general editors of the Arden 44 00:01:17.130 --> 00:01:19.019 Shakespeare, widely regarded as the 45 00:01:19.020 --> 00:01:20.549 most prestigious critical edition of 46 00:01:20.550 --> 00:01:21.550 Shakespeare's works. In 47 00:01:22.980 --> 00:01:24.089 his decades of writing about 48 00:01:24.090 --> 00:01:25.589 Shakespeare and the theater, 49 00:01:25.590 --> 00:01:26.849 Professor Holland has been rightly 50 00:01:26.850 --> 00:01:28.559 praised for bringing an open mind to 51 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:30.149 performances and attempting to 52 00:01:30.150 --> 00:01:32.249 appreciate them on their own terms, 53 00:01:32.250 --> 00:01:34.199 no matter how big or small, where 54 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:36.089 they're performed, or how well-known 55 00:01:36.090 --> 00:01:37.090 the actors are. 56 00:01:37.890 --> 00:01:39.209 He takes a similar approach to the 57 00:01:39.210 --> 00:01:40.649 way that Shakespeare circulates in 58 00:01:40.650 --> 00:01:42.269 global culture and to new and 59 00:01:42.270 --> 00:01:43.469 creative appropriations of 60 00:01:43.470 --> 00:01:45.449 Shakespeare's plays. 61 00:01:45.450 --> 00:01:46.859 In his visit to Bibb, he delivered a 62 00:01:46.860 --> 00:01:48.419 lecture on recent books like The Two 63 00:01:48.420 --> 00:01:50.249 Gentlemen of Lebowski and William 64 00:01:50.250 --> 00:01:52.289 Shakespeare's Star Wars, 65 00:01:52.290 --> 00:01:53.969 in which fans of the two films have 66 00:01:53.970 --> 00:01:55.289 rewritten them in Shakespearean 67 00:01:55.290 --> 00:01:57.149 language, complete with references 68 00:01:57.150 --> 00:01:58.150 to Shakespeare's plays. In 69 00:01:59.550 --> 00:02:00.899 all of his work, readers gain an 70 00:02:00.900 --> 00:02:02.369 appreciation for how much fun 71 00:02:02.370 --> 00:02:03.790 Shakespeare in the theater can be, a 72 00:02:04.800 --> 00:02:05.939 lesson that Professor Holland 73 00:02:05.940 --> 00:02:07.679 learned while going to the theater 74 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:09.749 with his parents as a child. 75 00:02:09.750 --> 00:02:11.489 I began by asking him about these 76 00:02:11.490 --> 00:02:13.019 early experiences and whether 77 00:02:13.020 --> 00:02:14.309 Shakespeare stood out for him as 78 00:02:14.310 --> 00:02:15.840 something special when he was young. 79 00:02:20.490 --> 00:02:22.139 Yes, I think the two things go 80 00:02:22.140 --> 00:02:24.089 together for 81 00:02:24.090 --> 00:02:25.739 many people, particularly in the US. 82 00:02:25.740 --> 00:02:27.089 Shakespeare may be the only live 83 00:02:27.090 --> 00:02:28.859 theater they see, and their 84 00:02:28.860 --> 00:02:30.089 experience of Shakespeare is of 85 00:02:30.090 --> 00:02:31.529 something rather grand and high 86 00:02:31.530 --> 00:02:33.299 cultural and probably rather 87 00:02:33.300 --> 00:02:34.529 difficult. 88 00:02:34.530 --> 00:02:35.939 And what the heck am I going to make 89 00:02:35.940 --> 00:02:37.979 of this strange language that nobody 90 00:02:37.980 --> 00:02:39.509 surely ever spoke? 91 00:02:39.510 --> 00:02:41.369 And if they did, perhaps not for 92 00:02:41.370 --> 00:02:43.289 a thousand years or something. 93 00:02:43.290 --> 00:02:45.629 But for me, I was watching 94 00:02:45.630 --> 00:02:46.919 Shakespeare. I was watching brand 95 00:02:46.920 --> 00:02:48.269 new plays at the Royal Court Theater 96 00:02:48.270 --> 00:02:49.199 in London. 97 00:02:49.200 --> 00:02:50.579 I was going to experimental things. 98 00:02:50.580 --> 00:02:52.319 Whatever my parents wanted to go to, 99 00:02:52.320 --> 00:02:53.789 we went to. 100 00:02:53.790 --> 00:02:55.559 And so I didn't think that there was 101 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:57.239 something different and special 102 00:02:57.240 --> 00:02:59.249 about going to Shakespeare, except 103 00:02:59.250 --> 00:03:00.479 it usually wasn't in London and 104 00:03:00.480 --> 00:03:02.459 involved just a drive to 105 00:03:02.460 --> 00:03:03.779 Stratford-upon-Avon and the picnic 106 00:03:03.780 --> 00:03:05.579 on the way, which was, of course, 107 00:03:05.580 --> 00:03:06.839 fun. 108 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:08.639 And this was long before I started 109 00:03:08.640 --> 00:03:09.639 reading Shakespeare. 110 00:03:09.640 --> 00:03:12.149 So it was watching before reading. 111 00:03:12.150 --> 00:03:13.289 And not just because I was young, 112 00:03:13.290 --> 00:03:14.489 but because I wasn't really 113 00:03:14.490 --> 00:03:16.079 interested in reading. 114 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:17.729 I started reading Shakespeare in 115 00:03:17.730 --> 00:03:18.809 school. That's where everybody 116 00:03:18.810 --> 00:03:20.429 started reading. 117 00:03:20.430 --> 00:03:22.799 But I started also at home listening 118 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:24.299 to Shakespeare. 119 00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:26.609 One of the few LPs we had - remember 120 00:03:26.610 --> 00:03:27.989 LPs? You know what we called them 121 00:03:27.990 --> 00:03:28.990 before we called them vinyl - was 122 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:32.759 of Laurence Olivier doing speeches 123 00:03:32.760 --> 00:03:33.760 from Hamlet and Henry V. 124 00:03:35.225 --> 00:03:37.204 What infinite heart's ease must 125 00:03:37.205 --> 00:03:39.179 kings neglect, that private men 126 00:03:39.180 --> 00:03:40.319 and joy. 127 00:03:40.320 --> 00:03:42.089 And I played them and played them 128 00:03:42.090 --> 00:03:43.259 and played them. 129 00:03:43.260 --> 00:03:45.299 And what have kings, that private's 130 00:03:45.300 --> 00:03:47.539 have not too, save ceremony? 131 00:03:49.380 --> 00:03:51.459 And what art thou, thou idle 132 00:03:51.460 --> 00:03:53.339 ceremony, that suffer'st more of 133 00:03:53.340 --> 00:03:54.732 mortal griefs than do thy 134 00:03:54.733 --> 00:03:55.733 worshippers? 135 00:03:56.540 --> 00:03:58.409 And I can still do large chunks of 136 00:03:58.410 --> 00:04:01.019 Henry V in Olivier's voice. 137 00:04:01.020 --> 00:04:02.939 And if I have a drink too 138 00:04:02.940 --> 00:04:04.229 many at parties, I have been known 139 00:04:04.230 --> 00:04:05.230 to do so. 140 00:04:06.270 --> 00:04:08.399 And I also used to watch 141 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.409 the Olivier Shakespeare films, which 142 00:04:10.410 --> 00:04:13.139 would show once a year at a 143 00:04:13.140 --> 00:04:14.159 movie theater in the middle of 144 00:04:14.160 --> 00:04:15.749 London. And I would go up on the bus 145 00:04:15.750 --> 00:04:17.398 and catch Richard III and Hamlet and 146 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:19.259 Henry V. And I loved them 147 00:04:19.260 --> 00:04:21.389 until it was about an excitement 148 00:04:21.390 --> 00:04:23.079 and a pleasure in it all. 149 00:04:23.080 --> 00:04:24.569 One of the things I feel very 150 00:04:24.570 --> 00:04:27.689 strongly about is that we usually 151 00:04:27.690 --> 00:04:29.879 start children on Shakespeare 152 00:04:29.880 --> 00:04:30.880 too late. 153 00:04:31.890 --> 00:04:33.659 My daughter went to her first 154 00:04:33.660 --> 00:04:35.609 Shakespeare production when she was 155 00:04:35.610 --> 00:04:37.379 about three and a half. 156 00:04:37.380 --> 00:04:39.419 It was Midsummer Night's Dream, 157 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:40.619 a professional company visiting 158 00:04:40.620 --> 00:04:42.539 Cambridge, and she knew the 159 00:04:42.540 --> 00:04:44.699 actor who played Theseus 160 00:04:44.700 --> 00:04:45.700 in it. 161 00:04:46.170 --> 00:04:48.029 And we acted out the story with 162 00:04:48.030 --> 00:04:49.889 Lego figures before we went. 163 00:04:49.890 --> 00:04:52.079 So she knew what the narrative was. 164 00:04:52.080 --> 00:04:54.179 And at the very end of the play, 165 00:04:54.180 --> 00:04:56.339 when Puck speaks the epilogue, 166 00:04:56.340 --> 00:04:58.169 and he says, "Give me your hands, if 167 00:04:58.170 --> 00:04:59.600 we be friends, and Robin shall 168 00:04:59.601 --> 00:05:01.600 restore amends." She reached out. 169 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:04.179 She heard the words, "Give me your 170 00:05:04.180 --> 00:05:05.829 hands." And so she reached out. 171 00:05:05.830 --> 00:05:07.659 We went backstage afterwards 172 00:05:07.660 --> 00:05:09.699 to see the company. 173 00:05:09.700 --> 00:05:11.229 And I told the actor, and he said, 174 00:05:11.230 --> 00:05:13.299 "If only I'd seen her." He'd jumped 175 00:05:13.300 --> 00:05:14.859 down from the stage to take her 176 00:05:14.860 --> 00:05:16.359 hand. I mean, what a gift to an 177 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:18.279 actor to have a small child. 178 00:05:18.280 --> 00:05:20.199 But for her, she was 179 00:05:20.200 --> 00:05:21.099 still listening. 180 00:05:21.100 --> 00:05:21.909 And it's not because she's 181 00:05:21.910 --> 00:05:23.529 extraordinarily bright, even though, 182 00:05:23.530 --> 00:05:25.719 of course, as a parent, I think so. 183 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:27.369 It's because for her, there was no 184 00:05:27.370 --> 00:05:29.229 strangeness in the language. 185 00:05:29.230 --> 00:05:31.089 Now what we usually do is we tell 186 00:05:31.090 --> 00:05:33.579 kids that Shakespeare is difficult, 187 00:05:33.580 --> 00:05:35.109 and then we say, "You're going to 188 00:05:35.110 --> 00:05:36.631 have to work hard to understand it." 189 00:05:36.632 --> 00:05:38.619 Now, when you're small, 190 00:05:38.620 --> 00:05:40.569 you live in a world in which a 191 00:05:40.570 --> 00:05:42.009 lot of the language that adults 192 00:05:42.010 --> 00:05:44.559 speak is incomprehensible to you. 193 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:46.629 What mom and dad say to each other 194 00:05:46.630 --> 00:05:48.429 isn't stuff you really quite kind of 195 00:05:48.430 --> 00:05:50.769 get. When you watch TV, you 196 00:05:50.770 --> 00:05:52.119 get some of it. You don't get other 197 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:54.099 bits of it unless it's kid's TV. 198 00:05:54.100 --> 00:05:56.019 So watching Shakespeare is no 199 00:05:56.020 --> 00:05:58.749 odder than your normal experience. 200 00:05:58.750 --> 00:05:59.949 There isn't this sense that you've 201 00:05:59.950 --> 00:06:01.209 been told this is going to be 202 00:06:01.210 --> 00:06:02.259 impossible, you know? 203 00:06:02.260 --> 00:06:03.850 You wouldn't understand it, but 204 00:06:04.900 --> 00:06:06.369 it's easy. 205 00:06:06.370 --> 00:06:08.259 So my belief is 206 00:06:08.260 --> 00:06:10.299 the earlier you start children 207 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:11.889 on the experience of Shakespeare and 208 00:06:11.890 --> 00:06:14.139 of the fun of watching Shakespeare 209 00:06:14.140 --> 00:06:15.609 and the fact that there will be bits 210 00:06:15.610 --> 00:06:17.059 of it that they will find boring and 211 00:06:17.060 --> 00:06:18.549 bits that they will find thrilling 212 00:06:18.550 --> 00:06:20.379 that will stay with them forever. 213 00:06:20.380 --> 00:06:22.029 That's when it becomes something 214 00:06:22.030 --> 00:06:23.019 that's part of the fabric of your 215 00:06:23.020 --> 00:06:23.499 life. 216 00:06:23.500 --> 00:06:24.500 Yeah. 217 00:06:25.750 --> 00:06:26.559 One of the things that was 218 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:28.989 interesting to me in 219 00:06:28.990 --> 00:06:30.819 reading through your 220 00:06:30.820 --> 00:06:32.619 work, your work as an academic, is 221 00:06:32.620 --> 00:06:34.509 that it seemed to me that 222 00:06:34.510 --> 00:06:36.219 when I look back, you didn't start 223 00:06:36.220 --> 00:06:37.149 reading, writing on Shakespeare. 224 00:06:37.150 --> 00:06:38.499 You started on restoration comedy. 225 00:06:38.500 --> 00:06:40.269 And your first book, The Ornament of 226 00:06:40.270 --> 00:06:41.529 Action, it seemed to me like 227 00:06:42.670 --> 00:06:44.409 you may have been-- you can tell me 228 00:06:44.410 --> 00:06:46.239 if this is a proper 229 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:48.069 reading of your motives for 230 00:06:48.070 --> 00:06:49.179 the argument you make in that book. 231 00:06:49.180 --> 00:06:50.469 It seemed like you were trying to 232 00:06:50.470 --> 00:06:52.479 bring that awareness 233 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:54.429 of the importance of live theater 234 00:06:54.430 --> 00:06:56.019 into academic discussion at that 235 00:06:56.020 --> 00:06:57.399 time. So that you're saying the way 236 00:06:57.400 --> 00:06:59.259 the plays live in the world 237 00:06:59.260 --> 00:07:01.239 is through their performance. 238 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:02.289 It's one of the ways they live in 239 00:07:02.290 --> 00:07:03.489 the world. I'm not suggesting for a 240 00:07:03.490 --> 00:07:04.749 moment it's the only way they live 241 00:07:04.750 --> 00:07:06.729 in the world, but 242 00:07:06.730 --> 00:07:08.259 it is the world for which they were 243 00:07:08.260 --> 00:07:09.699 designed. 244 00:07:09.700 --> 00:07:11.769 So even given the strong 245 00:07:11.770 --> 00:07:14.049 argument that Lukas Erne has 246 00:07:14.050 --> 00:07:15.459 been making over the last few years, 247 00:07:15.460 --> 00:07:17.439 that Shakespeare was what he calls a 248 00:07:17.440 --> 00:07:19.329 literary dramatist, somebody who did 249 00:07:19.330 --> 00:07:20.859 want his plays published, who was 250 00:07:20.860 --> 00:07:22.869 writing to be read as 251 00:07:22.870 --> 00:07:24.699 well. And I'm not quite convinced by 252 00:07:24.700 --> 00:07:26.649 his argument, but there's no 253 00:07:26.650 --> 00:07:28.119 question that the major source of 254 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:30.009 Shakespeare's income 255 00:07:30.010 --> 00:07:31.479 was, of course, from the theater 256 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:33.339 company as a sharer in the company, 257 00:07:33.340 --> 00:07:34.959 a profit share. 258 00:07:34.960 --> 00:07:36.549 And he wrote plays that he wanted to 259 00:07:36.550 --> 00:07:37.899 be profitable, so that he increased 260 00:07:37.900 --> 00:07:39.489 his income. 261 00:07:39.490 --> 00:07:41.409 It's not a kind of 262 00:07:41.410 --> 00:07:42.759 let me starve in a [garish?], and my 263 00:07:42.760 --> 00:07:44.589 art will be consumed in 264 00:07:44.590 --> 00:07:46.059 generations to come. 265 00:07:46.060 --> 00:07:47.769 It's how do we get 266 00:07:48.790 --> 00:07:50.679 not just bums on seats but people 267 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:52.509 standing in the yard wanting 268 00:07:52.510 --> 00:07:53.499 to see these plays? 269 00:07:53.500 --> 00:07:55.329 And if that works, then there's 270 00:07:55.330 --> 00:07:56.330 a reason to write them. 271 00:07:57.730 --> 00:07:59.739 Now that seems to me to 272 00:07:59.740 --> 00:08:01.839 be the only context 273 00:08:01.840 --> 00:08:03.369 that makes primary sense for 274 00:08:03.370 --> 00:08:04.719 understanding the motive for 275 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:05.799 writing. 276 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:07.809 And Shakespeare always wrote with 277 00:08:07.810 --> 00:08:11.109 a particular company in mind. 278 00:08:11.110 --> 00:08:12.519 Playwrights now, I mean, student 279 00:08:12.520 --> 00:08:13.959 playwrights write plays that may 280 00:08:13.960 --> 00:08:16.029 have two actors in them or 281 00:08:16.030 --> 00:08:17.949 75 actors in them. 282 00:08:17.950 --> 00:08:19.689 The 75 actor shows never quite get 283 00:08:19.690 --> 00:08:22.149 on. The two actors shows might do. 284 00:08:22.150 --> 00:08:23.919 Shakespeare knew the members of his 285 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:26.109 company, and he shaped 286 00:08:26.110 --> 00:08:27.399 parts for them. 287 00:08:28.810 --> 00:08:30.249 There's some brilliant work that was 288 00:08:30.250 --> 00:08:31.839 done a few years ago by Scott 289 00:08:31.840 --> 00:08:33.459 Macmillan, wonderful academic, died 290 00:08:33.460 --> 00:08:34.928 far too young. 291 00:08:34.929 --> 00:08:36.759 And what Scott explored was 292 00:08:36.760 --> 00:08:38.319 the work of the boy actors. 293 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:40.359 Boys, of course, played the women 294 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:42.129 in Shakespeare's companies. 295 00:08:42.130 --> 00:08:43.689 There were no professional actresses 296 00:08:43.690 --> 00:08:45.759 in England at this time. 297 00:08:45.760 --> 00:08:47.109 In spite of Shakespeare in Love, 298 00:08:47.110 --> 00:08:49.179 there was no law against 299 00:08:49.180 --> 00:08:50.139 women being on stage. 300 00:08:50.140 --> 00:08:51.849 It just wasn't the practice. 301 00:08:51.850 --> 00:08:53.679 So what 302 00:08:53.680 --> 00:08:55.629 Scott explored in that work 303 00:08:55.630 --> 00:08:57.309 was the way in which we can see how 304 00:08:57.310 --> 00:08:59.709 there must have been particular boys 305 00:08:59.710 --> 00:09:01.509 who became better and better, and 306 00:09:01.510 --> 00:09:02.769 Shakespeare wrote more and more 307 00:09:02.770 --> 00:09:04.989 adventurous roles for them. 308 00:09:04.990 --> 00:09:07.090 And then perhaps they 309 00:09:08.110 --> 00:09:09.849 grew too old, and boys played 310 00:09:09.850 --> 00:09:11.619 women's roles up until their late 311 00:09:11.620 --> 00:09:12.620 teens. We're not talking about 312 00:09:14.140 --> 00:09:15.140 pre-teen children. 313 00:09:16.030 --> 00:09:17.829 But then eventually migrated many of 314 00:09:17.830 --> 00:09:20.379 them to adult roles and male roles. 315 00:09:20.380 --> 00:09:22.329 And so, 316 00:09:22.330 --> 00:09:24.009 we watched Shakespeare interacting 317 00:09:24.010 --> 00:09:25.010 with a particular boy. 318 00:09:26.830 --> 00:09:28.899 He's brilliant. I could do this, 319 00:09:28.900 --> 00:09:30.519 and he'd be able to work with it. 320 00:09:30.520 --> 00:09:31.562 Or the clown Will Kempe leaves 321 00:09:32.890 --> 00:09:34.539 the company, and Shakespeare starts 322 00:09:34.540 --> 00:09:36.255 to write a different kind of fool 323 00:09:36.256 --> 00:09:37.989 role because Robert Armin, who joins 324 00:09:37.990 --> 00:09:39.759 the company, is a different kind of 325 00:09:39.760 --> 00:09:41.589 actor. Over and 326 00:09:41.590 --> 00:09:42.489 over again, what you have is a 327 00:09:42.490 --> 00:09:44.229 direct interaction between the 328 00:09:44.230 --> 00:09:45.759 playwright and the process of 329 00:09:45.760 --> 00:09:47.169 production. 330 00:09:47.170 --> 00:09:48.909 Not, "I think I'll write a play, and 331 00:09:48.910 --> 00:09:49.980 I wonder who will buy it." 332 00:09:51.100 --> 00:09:52.599 I'm going to write this play for 333 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:54.459 these actors in this 334 00:09:54.460 --> 00:09:56.439 theater, which is my theater, 335 00:09:56.440 --> 00:09:58.545 the company of which I am a part. 336 00:09:59.620 --> 00:10:00.759 That changes the whole way you 337 00:10:00.760 --> 00:10:01.689 write. 338 00:10:01.690 --> 00:10:02.889 And one kind of feeds on the other. 339 00:10:02.890 --> 00:10:04.039 Entirely. 340 00:10:04.040 --> 00:10:06.369 There's a lovely book, 341 00:10:06.370 --> 00:10:08.289 a comic novel called No Bed for 342 00:10:08.290 --> 00:10:10.059 Bacon by Caryl Brahms and S.J. 343 00:10:10.060 --> 00:10:11.919 Simon, in which 344 00:10:11.920 --> 00:10:13.419 the actors and the company keep 345 00:10:13.420 --> 00:10:15.009 making suggestions to Shakespeare 346 00:10:15.010 --> 00:10:16.779 about-- the clown comes up and says, 347 00:10:16.780 --> 00:10:18.159 "I've got this idea for a routine. 348 00:10:18.160 --> 00:10:20.919 I'll be a grave digger." And 349 00:10:20.920 --> 00:10:22.419 Burbage, Richard Burbage, the great 350 00:10:22.420 --> 00:10:23.679 actor of the company, says, "I want 351 00:10:23.680 --> 00:10:25.509 to play a Great Dane." And 352 00:10:25.510 --> 00:10:26.889 bit by bit, you realize that what 353 00:10:26.890 --> 00:10:28.299 they're offering Shakespeare is 354 00:10:28.300 --> 00:10:29.300 Hamlet. 355 00:10:30.100 --> 00:10:31.059 That's not, of course, how it 356 00:10:31.060 --> 00:10:32.169 happened. 357 00:10:32.170 --> 00:10:33.699 But I like the idea that this is a 358 00:10:33.700 --> 00:10:36.519 continual process of collaboration. 359 00:10:36.520 --> 00:10:38.019 And one of the things that seems to 360 00:10:38.020 --> 00:10:40.059 me absolutely central 361 00:10:40.060 --> 00:10:42.309 to the experience of watching 362 00:10:42.310 --> 00:10:44.199 theater and of making theater 363 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:46.119 and of writing for theater is 364 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:48.369 that it is unquestionably 365 00:10:48.370 --> 00:10:49.659 collaborative as a process. 366 00:10:51.280 --> 00:10:53.529 A historian may 367 00:10:53.530 --> 00:10:55.839 write academic work 368 00:10:55.840 --> 00:10:57.849 by exploring archives 369 00:10:57.850 --> 00:10:59.529 and writing. 370 00:10:59.530 --> 00:11:01.449 A theater artist makes 371 00:11:01.450 --> 00:11:02.889 theater by working with other 372 00:11:02.890 --> 00:11:03.890 people. 373 00:11:04.330 --> 00:11:06.339 It is not a solo piece 374 00:11:06.340 --> 00:11:07.340 of work. 375 00:11:09.100 --> 00:11:11.169 This reminds me of you talking about 376 00:11:11.170 --> 00:11:12.099 your interest in writing 377 00:11:12.100 --> 00:11:13.899 Shakespeare's entry for the Oxford 378 00:11:13.900 --> 00:11:15.549 Dictionary of National Biography, 379 00:11:15.550 --> 00:11:17.499 which is that your excitement 380 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:19.059 about writing that came from how 381 00:11:19.060 --> 00:11:20.199 much time you would get to spend 382 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:21.969 talking about Shakespeare's impact 383 00:11:21.970 --> 00:11:23.679 historically, rather than writing 384 00:11:23.680 --> 00:11:26.019 about focusing on just the years 385 00:11:26.020 --> 00:11:26.739 of his life. 386 00:11:26.740 --> 00:11:28.299 Absolutely. I mean, I have no 387 00:11:28.300 --> 00:11:30.219 interest in being the author of 388 00:11:30.220 --> 00:11:32.019 yet another book-length biography of 389 00:11:32.020 --> 00:11:33.020 Shakespeare. 390 00:11:33.640 --> 00:11:34.929 That's not to disparage the 391 00:11:34.930 --> 00:11:36.759 wonderful work by people like Lois 392 00:11:36.760 --> 00:11:38.499 Potter and Jim Shapiro and so on in 393 00:11:38.500 --> 00:11:39.939 the last few years who have written 394 00:11:39.940 --> 00:11:41.919 great Shakespeare biographies, 395 00:11:41.920 --> 00:11:43.959 each of which has taught me much 396 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:45.429 that I wanted to know about 397 00:11:45.430 --> 00:11:47.199 Shakespeare's life and contacts and 398 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:48.369 the worlds in which he lived. 399 00:11:49.450 --> 00:11:51.579 But I'm much more interested 400 00:11:51.580 --> 00:11:54.219 in impact, consequence, 401 00:11:54.220 --> 00:11:56.109 reception, consumption, 402 00:11:56.110 --> 00:11:58.119 whatever we want to use for that 403 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:00.129 whole process in which Shakespeare 404 00:12:00.130 --> 00:12:02.199 endlessly gets remade. 405 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:03.879 One of the things my students often 406 00:12:03.880 --> 00:12:05.889 do when they're writing about 407 00:12:05.890 --> 00:12:06.939 Shakespeare is they want to talk 408 00:12:06.940 --> 00:12:09.099 about Shakespeare as 409 00:12:09.100 --> 00:12:10.599 a universal figure. 410 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:12.849 That's that's the adjective that 411 00:12:12.850 --> 00:12:14.199 comes up again and again. 412 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:15.999 Universal. 413 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:17.769 And when I talk to them about it, 414 00:12:17.770 --> 00:12:19.809 what they think it means 415 00:12:19.810 --> 00:12:21.129 is that Shakespeare is a kind of 416 00:12:21.130 --> 00:12:22.629 constant. 417 00:12:22.630 --> 00:12:23.630 It's a bit like pi. Pi 418 00:12:24.790 --> 00:12:26.709 is 3.14 or 419 00:12:26.710 --> 00:12:28.502 3.1412 or 3.14159, and 420 00:12:29.920 --> 00:12:31.359 then on until you've memorized 421 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:33.039 however many thousands of 422 00:12:33.040 --> 00:12:34.309 consecutive digits people are 423 00:12:34.310 --> 00:12:36.069 bothered with or computed trillions 424 00:12:36.070 --> 00:12:37.070 now. 425 00:12:37.630 --> 00:12:39.459 But the notion is this is still the 426 00:12:39.460 --> 00:12:41.409 same thing. As if Shakespeare 427 00:12:41.410 --> 00:12:43.720 is always everywhere the same. 428 00:12:45.040 --> 00:12:46.869 I tell them as 429 00:12:46.870 --> 00:12:48.639 firmly and politely as I can. 430 00:12:48.640 --> 00:12:50.229 This is not true. 431 00:12:50.230 --> 00:12:52.179 The great thing about Shakespeare 432 00:12:52.180 --> 00:12:54.129 is, as Keats recognized, 433 00:12:54.130 --> 00:12:55.029 that he's the chameleon. 434 00:12:55.030 --> 00:12:57.309 He takes on different coloring 435 00:12:57.310 --> 00:12:59.229 according to where the work is being 436 00:12:59.230 --> 00:13:01.089 made, written 437 00:13:01.090 --> 00:13:02.889 about, consumed, read, seen, 438 00:13:02.890 --> 00:13:04.299 whatever it may be. 439 00:13:04.300 --> 00:13:06.249 And in each place, we 440 00:13:06.250 --> 00:13:08.739 make our own new Shakespeare. 441 00:13:08.740 --> 00:13:10.389 That is the one that's appropriate 442 00:13:10.390 --> 00:13:12.099 for us. 443 00:13:12.100 --> 00:13:13.959 When I think of 444 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:15.909 a wonderful movie like Omkara, 445 00:13:15.910 --> 00:13:17.735 made by Vishal 446 00:13:17.736 --> 00:13:20.259 Bhardwaj, an Indian film director, 447 00:13:20.260 --> 00:13:21.970 it's a spin-off of Othello. 448 00:13:23.470 --> 00:13:25.599 It is unquestionably 449 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:27.459 an Indian film. 450 00:13:27.460 --> 00:13:29.409 This is not a film that makes 451 00:13:29.410 --> 00:13:31.539 sense in any other 452 00:13:31.540 --> 00:13:34.899 socio-political cultural context. 453 00:13:34.900 --> 00:13:36.899 We imagine 454 00:13:36.900 --> 00:13:38.739 that somehow being 455 00:13:38.740 --> 00:13:40.629 Anglophone Westerners 456 00:13:40.630 --> 00:13:42.759 that the real Shakespeare 457 00:13:42.760 --> 00:13:44.649 is the English or the American 458 00:13:44.650 --> 00:13:46.929 Shakespeare. And indeed, most 459 00:13:46.930 --> 00:13:48.849 American Shakespeare actors have a 460 00:13:48.850 --> 00:13:50.919 giant chip on their shoulder about 461 00:13:50.920 --> 00:13:52.809 their kind of inevitable 462 00:13:52.810 --> 00:13:54.369 inferiority because they don't speak 463 00:13:54.370 --> 00:13:55.539 and receive pronunciation. 464 00:13:56.830 --> 00:13:59.019 But what we really have is 465 00:13:59.020 --> 00:14:01.239 the most extraordinary opportunity 466 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:02.709 with Shakespeare endlessly to 467 00:14:02.710 --> 00:14:04.779 rethink and remake and 468 00:14:04.780 --> 00:14:07.389 make relevant to us 469 00:14:07.390 --> 00:14:09.399 and to learn what is relevant 470 00:14:09.400 --> 00:14:11.919 to there, then, where, 471 00:14:11.920 --> 00:14:13.859 wherever it may be. 472 00:14:13.860 --> 00:14:15.759 My students endlessly use a word I 473 00:14:15.760 --> 00:14:17.169 really don't like. 474 00:14:17.170 --> 00:14:18.429 Relatable. 475 00:14:18.430 --> 00:14:20.709 Shakespeare is so relatable. 476 00:14:20.710 --> 00:14:22.719 Relatable means it's about 477 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:23.720 me. 478 00:14:24.460 --> 00:14:26.409 I try to explain to them 479 00:14:26.410 --> 00:14:28.809 sometimes Shakespeare isn't about me 480 00:14:28.810 --> 00:14:29.799 or you. 481 00:14:29.800 --> 00:14:31.269 It's about another culture at 482 00:14:31.270 --> 00:14:32.379 another time. 483 00:14:32.380 --> 00:14:34.299 And that's what matters. 484 00:14:34.300 --> 00:14:36.729 And the contact between 485 00:14:36.730 --> 00:14:38.649 our current culture, 486 00:14:38.650 --> 00:14:40.539 whoever's current culture, and 487 00:14:40.540 --> 00:14:42.459 Shakespeare's texts, is 488 00:14:42.460 --> 00:14:43.460 the thing were 489 00:14:44.290 --> 00:14:45.769 interesting things happen. 490 00:14:45.770 --> 00:14:47.709 Yes. So that 491 00:14:47.710 --> 00:14:49.839 a performance, whether it's trapped 492 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.059 on DVD or 493 00:14:52.060 --> 00:14:54.309 whatever, doesn't exist 494 00:14:54.310 --> 00:14:56.409 as an object to be consumed 495 00:14:56.410 --> 00:14:57.429 the same everywhere. 496 00:14:57.430 --> 00:14:59.749 It is specific to the act of making 497 00:14:59.750 --> 00:15:00.750 it. 498 00:15:01.100 --> 00:15:03.889 One of my favorite 499 00:15:03.890 --> 00:15:05.779 Shakespeare films is a wonderful 500 00:15:05.780 --> 00:15:07.645 version of Hamlet made by Grigori 501 00:15:07.646 --> 00:15:10.609 Kozintsev in Russia in 1964. 502 00:15:10.610 --> 00:15:11.959 The film title is, of course, not 503 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:14.089 Hamlet, but Gamlet because Russian 504 00:15:14.090 --> 00:15:15.559 doesn't have an H. 505 00:15:15.560 --> 00:15:16.679 So he becomes [foreign] Gamlet, 506 00:15:17.810 --> 00:15:18.889 which, of course, will always sound 507 00:15:18.890 --> 00:15:19.890 immediately Russian. 508 00:15:20.750 --> 00:15:21.889 And this is a film made under 509 00:15:21.890 --> 00:15:22.890 Sovietism, 510 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:25.609 and it's about the power 511 00:15:25.610 --> 00:15:26.569 of the state. 512 00:15:26.570 --> 00:15:28.170 And it was made in 1964, the 513 00:15:28.171 --> 00:15:29.749 quadricentennial of Shakespeare's 514 00:15:29.750 --> 00:15:31.789 birth, as Soviet 515 00:15:31.790 --> 00:15:33.709 films' contribution to 516 00:15:33.710 --> 00:15:35.389 the celebration of Shakespeare. 517 00:15:35.390 --> 00:15:37.729 But it's also a deeply subversive 518 00:15:37.730 --> 00:15:40.069 film, which is about a surveillance 519 00:15:40.070 --> 00:15:41.959 political culture. 520 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:43.849 And you are 521 00:15:43.850 --> 00:15:46.039 a filmmaker working 522 00:15:46.040 --> 00:15:48.139 under and in a culture 523 00:15:48.140 --> 00:15:50.000 of Soviet surveillance. 524 00:15:51.290 --> 00:15:52.639 This is a message film. 525 00:15:52.640 --> 00:15:54.619 Yes, this is a highly politicized 526 00:15:54.620 --> 00:15:56.809 film. It's not saying that in 527 00:15:56.810 --> 00:15:58.699 Denmark things were 528 00:15:58.700 --> 00:16:00.739 like that, or in England 529 00:16:00.740 --> 00:16:02.629 in 1603 things 530 00:16:02.630 --> 00:16:04.369 were like that. It's saying this is 531 00:16:04.370 --> 00:16:06.769 Russia in 1964. 532 00:16:06.770 --> 00:16:09.739 Your reference to the political 533 00:16:09.740 --> 00:16:11.599 film being produced there 534 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:13.699 reminds me of one 535 00:16:13.700 --> 00:16:15.529 of the things that I read when 536 00:16:15.530 --> 00:16:16.819 you were writing about Coriolanus. 537 00:16:16.820 --> 00:16:19.189 You edited the Coriolanus 538 00:16:19.190 --> 00:16:21.799 text for the Arden third-- 539 00:16:21.800 --> 00:16:22.800 Arden third series. Yep. 540 00:16:23.780 --> 00:16:25.279 We're just starting to plan Arden 541 00:16:25.280 --> 00:16:26.089 fourth series. 542 00:16:26.090 --> 00:16:27.288 That's right. You're one of the general editors. 543 00:16:27.289 --> 00:16:28.189 I'm one of the general editors. 544 00:16:28.190 --> 00:16:29.839 It's a project which will take about 545 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:31.699 25 to 30 years, which 546 00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:33.469 means the likelihood I will see the 547 00:16:33.470 --> 00:16:34.879 end of it is pretty remote. 548 00:16:34.880 --> 00:16:36.679 And it's the first project I've 549 00:16:36.680 --> 00:16:38.779 taken on with that kind of awareness 550 00:16:38.780 --> 00:16:40.669 that it's going to go on well beyond 551 00:16:40.670 --> 00:16:41.179 me. 552 00:16:41.180 --> 00:16:43.459 Well, this is the-- the first volume 553 00:16:43.460 --> 00:16:44.961 of that won't come out until 2020, 554 00:16:44.962 --> 00:16:45.709 so-- 555 00:16:45.710 --> 00:16:46.710 Oh, I think 2023, 556 00:16:47.570 --> 00:16:48.619 2025. 557 00:16:48.620 --> 00:16:49.609 We haven't even commissioned a 558 00:16:49.610 --> 00:16:50.689 single volume yet. 559 00:16:50.690 --> 00:16:52.009 We're still in planning. 560 00:16:52.010 --> 00:16:53.239 Well, I did want to ask you about 561 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:55.189 that, too. About your thoughts about 562 00:16:55.190 --> 00:16:57.349 that. But thinking about 563 00:16:57.350 --> 00:16:59.899 Coriolanus, I was interested 564 00:16:59.900 --> 00:17:02.269 in your interest 565 00:17:02.270 --> 00:17:04.368 in that because you write about 566 00:17:04.369 --> 00:17:06.199 the fact that a certain production 567 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:08.598 of Gunter Gross's play 568 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:10.029 talking about, and it was The 569 00:17:10.030 --> 00:17:10.851 Plebeians Rehearse the Uprising, 570 00:17:10.852 --> 00:17:11.299 right? 571 00:17:11.300 --> 00:17:11.759 Yep. 572 00:17:11.760 --> 00:17:13.519 Is his performance that you saw and 573 00:17:13.520 --> 00:17:14.929 that had an impact on you and 574 00:17:14.930 --> 00:17:17.209 allowed you to see Coriolanus as 575 00:17:17.210 --> 00:17:18.799 a really highly political film? 576 00:17:18.800 --> 00:17:20.328 And I wonder if that's one of the 577 00:17:20.329 --> 00:17:21.709 reasons why-- I mean, you mentioned 578 00:17:21.710 --> 00:17:23.269 the fact that I think Napoleon 579 00:17:23.270 --> 00:17:25.068 stopped the production in France at 580 00:17:25.069 --> 00:17:26.539 a certain point because he felt that 581 00:17:27.950 --> 00:17:30.079 the portrayal of Coriolanus was 582 00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:31.069 reflecting on him. 583 00:17:31.070 --> 00:17:33.829 Coriolanus is a text which 584 00:17:33.830 --> 00:17:35.959 is the epitome of that malleability 585 00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:37.789 of Shakespeare, and often that comes 586 00:17:37.790 --> 00:17:38.790 through adaptation. 587 00:17:39.770 --> 00:17:41.869 So the first two major 588 00:17:41.870 --> 00:17:44.149 adaptations of the play, one in 589 00:17:44.150 --> 00:17:45.379 the late 17th century, one in the 590 00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:47.989 early 18th century. 591 00:17:47.990 --> 00:17:50.299 One is called The Ingratitude 592 00:17:50.300 --> 00:17:51.300 of the Commonwealth. 593 00:17:52.280 --> 00:17:53.539 And it's perfectly clear, as you 594 00:17:53.540 --> 00:17:55.189 look at that title, this is about 595 00:17:55.190 --> 00:17:56.419 the way in which the Roman state 596 00:17:56.420 --> 00:17:59.089 doesn't admire and accommodate 597 00:17:59.090 --> 00:18:01.069 the sheer oddity of this weird 598 00:18:01.070 --> 00:18:03.739 figure, Gnaeus Marcius Coriolanus. 599 00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:05.449 And the other adaptation is called 600 00:18:05.450 --> 00:18:07.579 The Invader of His Own Country. 601 00:18:07.580 --> 00:18:09.169 Well, it's clear that that does not 602 00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:11.239 approve of what Coriolanus 603 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:13.219 is doing. So the 604 00:18:13.220 --> 00:18:15.199 two versions in effect, one 605 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:16.519 Whig, one Tory. I mean, these are 606 00:18:16.520 --> 00:18:18.139 different political readings of the 607 00:18:18.140 --> 00:18:20.029 same narrative. 608 00:18:20.030 --> 00:18:21.709 And it is perfectly practicable to 609 00:18:21.710 --> 00:18:23.539 play the Shakespeare play without 610 00:18:23.540 --> 00:18:25.639 adapting it to mean one 611 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:26.819 or another version. 612 00:18:26.820 --> 00:18:28.129 That's part of that kind of 613 00:18:28.130 --> 00:18:30.049 chameleon, malleable quality 614 00:18:30.050 --> 00:18:31.159 of Shakespeare. 615 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:33.529 That we can remake, meaning 616 00:18:33.530 --> 00:18:34.939 according to what is most 617 00:18:34.940 --> 00:18:36.272 appropriate for the intervention we 618 00:18:37.430 --> 00:18:38.370 want that to make. 619 00:18:38.371 --> 00:18:40.219 It's not that we 620 00:18:40.220 --> 00:18:43.489 have to uncover a truth 621 00:18:43.490 --> 00:18:45.649 and that truth is then a constant 622 00:18:45.650 --> 00:18:47.509 fixed entity, but rather we 623 00:18:47.510 --> 00:18:49.579 have the opportunity to enjoy 624 00:18:49.580 --> 00:18:51.799 the rethinking and to make 625 00:18:51.800 --> 00:18:53.659 the political act of theater. 626 00:18:53.660 --> 00:18:55.609 And theater is normally a 627 00:18:55.610 --> 00:18:57.529 political act. I mean, I don't mean 628 00:18:57.530 --> 00:18:59.569 by that that it's conventional party 629 00:18:59.570 --> 00:19:01.489 politics of the state, but 630 00:19:01.490 --> 00:19:03.469 that it is engaged with how people 631 00:19:03.470 --> 00:19:04.489 interact. 632 00:19:04.490 --> 00:19:06.469 And every time you present 633 00:19:06.470 --> 00:19:08.899 a view of how people interact, 634 00:19:08.900 --> 00:19:09.949 you are making a political 635 00:19:09.950 --> 00:19:12.499 statement, be it about desire 636 00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:15.049 or gender or sexual orientation 637 00:19:15.050 --> 00:19:17.149 or age or family, whatever 638 00:19:17.150 --> 00:19:19.189 it may be. Our comments on those 639 00:19:19.190 --> 00:19:20.899 are political statements. 640 00:19:20.900 --> 00:19:22.189 And Shakespeare is the ideal space 641 00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:23.569 for it. 642 00:19:23.570 --> 00:19:25.489 So that one of the demands I make 643 00:19:25.490 --> 00:19:26.900 of any production, 644 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:29.689 and for me it's an entirely fair 645 00:19:29.690 --> 00:19:31.729 demand to make, is 646 00:19:31.730 --> 00:19:33.799 what is it that you want to say 647 00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:35.689 through this production? 648 00:19:35.690 --> 00:19:37.369 And if the answer is, I just want 649 00:19:37.370 --> 00:19:38.539 people to have a good time, 650 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:41.539 perhaps you're not getting far 651 00:19:41.540 --> 00:19:42.889 enough into what this play can offer 652 00:19:42.890 --> 00:19:43.890 you. 653 00:19:44.660 --> 00:19:46.609 I don't mean that therefore, I 654 00:19:46.610 --> 00:19:48.079 live in hope of seeing the perfect 655 00:19:48.080 --> 00:19:49.309 Shakespeare production. 656 00:19:49.310 --> 00:19:51.139 The whole point is that each one is 657 00:19:51.140 --> 00:19:52.879 imperfect and there's another one 658 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:54.379 coming along later. 659 00:19:54.380 --> 00:19:56.359 Thinking about Shakespeare's 660 00:19:56.360 --> 00:19:57.709 career, I'm also interested in 661 00:19:57.710 --> 00:19:59.149 asking you about Richard III. 662 00:19:59.150 --> 00:20:00.919 In particular, because this, for me, 663 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:02.959 in your entry 664 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:04.819 about Shakespeare in the 665 00:20:04.820 --> 00:20:06.769 dictionary, that 666 00:20:06.770 --> 00:20:08.569 play stood out to me as something 667 00:20:08.570 --> 00:20:09.769 that you'd seem like you were 668 00:20:09.770 --> 00:20:11.479 writing about it as a kind of a 669 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:13.249 turning point for Shakespeare. 670 00:20:13.250 --> 00:20:15.085 And I have this one line that 671 00:20:15.086 --> 00:20:15.919 stood out to me. 672 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:17.809 You write that it was as if at 673 00:20:17.810 --> 00:20:19.579 this moment, Shakespeare unlocks the 674 00:20:19.580 --> 00:20:21.709 vast potential of dramatic character 675 00:20:21.710 --> 00:20:23.509 and of the blank verse form for the 676 00:20:23.510 --> 00:20:24.499 first time. 677 00:20:24.500 --> 00:20:25.989 That seemed to be a tremendous-- 678 00:20:25.990 --> 00:20:28.399 well, like you thought this was a 679 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.109 tremendous moment in his 680 00:20:30.110 --> 00:20:30.889 development. 681 00:20:30.890 --> 00:20:31.890 Because what 682 00:20:33.710 --> 00:20:35.629 intrigues me is that 683 00:20:35.630 --> 00:20:37.849 when Richard awakens 684 00:20:37.850 --> 00:20:39.859 from the nightmare of the visitation 685 00:20:39.860 --> 00:20:40.999 of the ghost on the night before 686 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:42.000 Bosworth, 687 00:20:42.950 --> 00:20:44.959 he speaks 688 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:46.809 in a way that nobody on 689 00:20:46.810 --> 00:20:49.429 the stage had ever spoken before. 690 00:20:49.430 --> 00:20:50.869 It's fragmented. 691 00:20:50.870 --> 00:20:53.179 He gets through six 692 00:20:53.180 --> 00:20:55.129 tiny sentences in about three 693 00:20:55.130 --> 00:20:56.509 lines. 694 00:20:56.510 --> 00:20:58.999 And it's as if 695 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:00.739 what we think of as the normal 696 00:21:00.740 --> 00:21:02.659 coherence of how 697 00:21:02.660 --> 00:21:04.459 speech is constructed in Shakespeare 698 00:21:05.750 --> 00:21:06.949 blows apart. 699 00:21:06.950 --> 00:21:08.809 And he discovers he can do something 700 00:21:08.810 --> 00:21:10.849 entirely different that 701 00:21:10.850 --> 00:21:13.159 he's never done before and nobody 702 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:14.569 has ever done before. 703 00:21:14.570 --> 00:21:16.549 And for me, it's an absolutely 704 00:21:16.550 --> 00:21:17.659 magical moment. 705 00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:21.220 Is there a murderer here? 706 00:21:22.860 --> 00:21:23.732 No. Yes. 707 00:21:23.733 --> 00:21:23.752 I am. I love myself. But why? For any good that I myself have done unto 708 00:21:23.753 --> 00:21:23.765 myself? O no, alack, I rather hate myself for hateful deeds committed by 709 00:21:23.766 --> 00:21:24.766 myself. I am a villain. 710 00:21:48.590 --> 00:21:50.599 I don't mean that the previous four 711 00:21:50.600 --> 00:21:51.859 and a half acts of Richard III aren't 712 00:21:51.860 --> 00:21:52.759 worth reading. 713 00:21:52.760 --> 00:21:53.959 They're great. 714 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:55.789 But even during that period 715 00:21:55.790 --> 00:21:57.889 of length of 716 00:21:57.890 --> 00:22:00.649 text, he doesn't get 717 00:22:00.650 --> 00:22:01.880 this to happen. 718 00:22:03.260 --> 00:22:04.849 Something is possible at that 719 00:22:04.850 --> 00:22:07.249 moment, and 720 00:22:07.250 --> 00:22:08.809 I don't think he ever quite does the 721 00:22:08.810 --> 00:22:09.890 same thing again. 722 00:22:11.060 --> 00:22:13.069 But when you discover 723 00:22:13.070 --> 00:22:14.719 that you can do this, you also 724 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:16.609 discover you can do other things. 725 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:19.549 One of the things about blank verse 726 00:22:19.550 --> 00:22:21.619 is that in Shakespeare's hands, 727 00:22:21.620 --> 00:22:23.599 it becomes the most 728 00:22:23.600 --> 00:22:26.269 astonishingly flexible form, 729 00:22:26.270 --> 00:22:28.699 and it increases in flexibility 730 00:22:28.700 --> 00:22:30.199 throughout his career. 731 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:31.999 So it's not that blank verse is a 732 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.229 constriction like, "Oh, I've got to 733 00:22:33.230 --> 00:22:34.230 have a line that goes [inaudible]." And 734 00:22:36.470 --> 00:22:38.149 that's what people think blank verse 735 00:22:38.150 --> 00:22:40.099 is. It's an iambic 736 00:22:40.100 --> 00:22:41.113 pentameter. It's five iambs. 737 00:22:43.340 --> 00:22:44.779 Dee-dum, dee-dum. 738 00:22:44.780 --> 00:22:46.039 And you ask people to give you an 739 00:22:46.040 --> 00:22:48.379 example of an iambic pentameter, 740 00:22:48.380 --> 00:22:50.659 and they say, "To be, 741 00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:52.579 or not to be, that 742 00:22:52.580 --> 00:22:53.580 is the quest--." 743 00:22:54.650 --> 00:22:57.109 Oh, there's another syllable. 744 00:22:57.110 --> 00:22:58.339 It's a feminine ending. 745 00:22:58.340 --> 00:22:59.899 It's an 11-syllable line. 746 00:22:59.900 --> 00:23:01.819 It's not "is the question." 747 00:23:01.820 --> 00:23:02.809 And it's not what--you can't 748 00:23:02.810 --> 00:23:04.099 collapse it. 749 00:23:04.100 --> 00:23:06.169 Shakespeare is playing games with 750 00:23:06.170 --> 00:23:07.159 what the rhythms are like. 751 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:08.809 Turning them upside down and inside 752 00:23:08.810 --> 00:23:10.249 out. So though there's that 753 00:23:10.250 --> 00:23:12.229 fundamental pulse, which 754 00:23:12.230 --> 00:23:14.239 is iambic, the number of 755 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:15.049 iambs doesn't have to be all that 756 00:23:15.050 --> 00:23:16.050 high. 757 00:23:16.940 --> 00:23:18.682 Ian McKellen has always argued that, 758 00:23:18.683 --> 00:23:20.929 in fact, the fundamental rhythm 759 00:23:20.930 --> 00:23:22.429 is really like a heartbeat. 760 00:23:22.430 --> 00:23:23.430 Tu-tum, tu-tum, tu-tum. 761 00:23:25.370 --> 00:23:27.739 When he makes his first appearance 762 00:23:27.740 --> 00:23:28.771 as Richard - we're back to Richard 763 00:23:28.772 --> 00:23:31.039 III again - in the film version 764 00:23:31.040 --> 00:23:32.659 of Richard III that he wrote the 765 00:23:32.660 --> 00:23:34.579 screenplay for, directed by Richard 766 00:23:34.580 --> 00:23:35.689 Loncraine. 767 00:23:35.690 --> 00:23:38.059 We first see him-- there's a tank 768 00:23:38.060 --> 00:23:40.399 breaks through a brick wall, and 769 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.829 Richard comes in wearing a gas mask. 770 00:23:42.830 --> 00:23:44.449 And he's breathing through the gas 771 00:23:44.450 --> 00:23:45.450 mask. 772 00:23:48.090 --> 00:23:50.459 And he wants it to be the rhythm of 773 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:51.359 blank verse. 774 00:23:51.360 --> 00:23:52.799 It's a kind of joke. 775 00:23:52.800 --> 00:23:55.409 We also, and I don't know whether 776 00:23:55.410 --> 00:23:57.269 McKellen would really realized it 777 00:23:57.270 --> 00:23:59.639 when he was creating this moment. 778 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:00.974 We also hear it as Darth Vader, and 779 00:24:03.510 --> 00:24:05.129 Richard III is suddenly a character 780 00:24:05.130 --> 00:24:06.329 out of Star Wars. 781 00:24:06.330 --> 00:24:07.739 It's perfect. 782 00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:09.599 And it's exactly that kind 783 00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:11.999 of pop cultural appropriation 784 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.279 that happens whether you want 785 00:24:14.280 --> 00:24:15.569 it or not. 786 00:24:15.570 --> 00:24:17.279 Actually thinking of Richard, then 787 00:24:17.280 --> 00:24:19.169 Duke of Gloucester, as a kind of 788 00:24:19.170 --> 00:24:20.689 Darth Vader figure. 789 00:24:20.690 --> 00:24:22.679 I'll buy that any time. 790 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:23.879 Well, it's very fitting too with 791 00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:25.229 your talk yesterday and you talking 792 00:24:25.230 --> 00:24:26.729 about the way that Star Wars and 793 00:24:26.730 --> 00:24:28.169 Shakespeare have interacted in 794 00:24:28.170 --> 00:24:28.979 recent text. 795 00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:29.879 Very much so. 796 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:31.053 And particularly the work that Ian 797 00:24:31.054 --> 00:24:32.429 Doescher has been doing called 798 00:24:32.430 --> 00:24:34.319 William Shakespeare's Star Wars, 799 00:24:34.320 --> 00:24:36.179 in which he's rewritten 800 00:24:36.180 --> 00:24:38.459 the screenplays into 801 00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:40.109 his version of Shakespearean blank 802 00:24:40.110 --> 00:24:40.499 verse. 803 00:24:40.500 --> 00:24:41.500 Yeah. 804 00:24:42.390 --> 00:24:44.699 Well, so I want to ask you about the 805 00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:45.700 Arden project. 806 00:24:46.890 --> 00:24:48.569 That just started in earlier this 807 00:24:48.570 --> 00:24:50.009 year in 2015. 808 00:24:50.010 --> 00:24:52.019 And as you said, massive 809 00:24:52.020 --> 00:24:52.889 project. 810 00:24:52.890 --> 00:24:54.749 One of the first things that 811 00:24:54.750 --> 00:24:56.399 you and the other general editors 812 00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:58.019 will do, according to the 813 00:24:58.020 --> 00:24:59.999 publishers, will be to think 814 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.829 about what a collection 815 00:25:01.830 --> 00:25:03.749 of Shakespeare should look like for 816 00:25:03.750 --> 00:25:05.729 the 21st century, and in 817 00:25:05.730 --> 00:25:07.379 particular, online. 818 00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:09.149 And so I wonder, what are some of 819 00:25:09.150 --> 00:25:11.309 the first-- how do you begin? 820 00:25:11.310 --> 00:25:12.389 What are some of the first questions 821 00:25:12.390 --> 00:25:12.869 you ask? 822 00:25:12.870 --> 00:25:14.669 Well, I am, of course, bound by a 823 00:25:14.670 --> 00:25:16.739 confidentiality agreement not to say 824 00:25:16.740 --> 00:25:18.539 anything in detail. 825 00:25:18.540 --> 00:25:20.669 But the plain fact is 826 00:25:20.670 --> 00:25:22.499 that the 827 00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:25.079 great Shakespeare editions 828 00:25:25.080 --> 00:25:26.999 of the 829 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:28.289 individual play series, which is a 830 00:25:28.290 --> 00:25:30.029 completely separate kind of project 831 00:25:30.030 --> 00:25:31.243 from editing the complete works. 832 00:25:31.244 --> 00:25:32.244 The 833 00:25:33.060 --> 00:25:34.060 individual play series-- there 834 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:37.469 have really been in recent years 835 00:25:37.470 --> 00:25:39.329 three competing 836 00:25:39.330 --> 00:25:40.979 versions at the highest scholarly 837 00:25:40.980 --> 00:25:42.779 level, the Oxford edition, the 838 00:25:42.780 --> 00:25:44.776 Cambridge Edition, and the Arden 839 00:25:44.777 --> 00:25:45.777 Edition. 840 00:25:46.350 --> 00:25:47.459 Those three series 841 00:25:48.540 --> 00:25:50.399 now virtually complete each of 842 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:51.400 them 843 00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:54.779 or began work at roughly the same 844 00:25:54.780 --> 00:25:55.780 time. 845 00:25:56.580 --> 00:25:58.439 There's been a delay 846 00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:00.059 before we now move on to the Arden 847 00:26:00.060 --> 00:26:02.099 fourth series, and 848 00:26:02.100 --> 00:26:04.019 something has changed. 849 00:26:04.020 --> 00:26:05.639 And the most obvious thing that has 850 00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:07.529 changed is we 851 00:26:07.530 --> 00:26:09.959 can now conceive of an Arden play 852 00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:11.849 edition that is born digital. 853 00:26:13.170 --> 00:26:14.939 What does what is born digital going 854 00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:16.379 to make possible? 855 00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:18.239 Well, I don't quite know. 856 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:19.439 And that's not just because I'm not 857 00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:20.440 allowed to say. We 858 00:26:21.390 --> 00:26:23.309 haven't got a clear 859 00:26:23.310 --> 00:26:24.239 plan. 860 00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.189 But we do know that while 861 00:26:26.190 --> 00:26:27.809 there will be print editions as 862 00:26:27.810 --> 00:26:29.669 well, there 863 00:26:29.670 --> 00:26:32.009 will also be something conceived 864 00:26:32.010 --> 00:26:33.869 from the start as 865 00:26:33.870 --> 00:26:35.369 a digital edition. 866 00:26:35.370 --> 00:26:37.289 Now that's a challenge, not 867 00:26:37.290 --> 00:26:38.369 least because, of course, digital 868 00:26:38.370 --> 00:26:40.199 platforms will change during 869 00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:41.849 the life of the publication of the 870 00:26:41.850 --> 00:26:43.739 project, but it 871 00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:45.329 obviously makes possible different 872 00:26:45.330 --> 00:26:47.700 kinds of availability of materials. 873 00:26:49.020 --> 00:26:50.969 So one of the things 874 00:26:50.970 --> 00:26:52.859 that we've always recognized about 875 00:26:52.860 --> 00:26:54.629 large-scale commentaries on 876 00:26:54.630 --> 00:26:56.039 Shakespeare plays, I mean, those 877 00:26:56.040 --> 00:26:57.659 massive bits of text at the bottom 878 00:26:57.660 --> 00:26:59.819 of the page that pushes 879 00:26:59.820 --> 00:27:01.289 the Shakespeare further and further 880 00:27:01.290 --> 00:27:02.290 up the page. 881 00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:05.669 In the most extreme 882 00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:07.589 examples, which were the 883 00:27:07.590 --> 00:27:09.239 Variorum Editions, could mean that 884 00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:11.099 you had one line of Shakespeare 885 00:27:11.100 --> 00:27:13.409 followed by eight or ten pages 886 00:27:13.410 --> 00:27:16.109 in minute type of commentary 887 00:27:16.110 --> 00:27:18.089 on what on earth that line might 888 00:27:18.090 --> 00:27:19.709 have been thought to have meant 889 00:27:19.710 --> 00:27:21.749 across the history of readings 890 00:27:21.750 --> 00:27:22.950 and writings about it. 891 00:27:24.810 --> 00:27:26.661 What that commentary can now do is 892 00:27:26.662 --> 00:27:28.589 to explore 893 00:27:28.590 --> 00:27:30.539 different kinds of materials in ways 894 00:27:30.540 --> 00:27:32.429 that make it possible to find 895 00:27:32.430 --> 00:27:33.509 it. 896 00:27:33.510 --> 00:27:34.820 On a video [crosstalk]. 897 00:27:36.630 --> 00:27:38.009 Other materials because one can 898 00:27:38.010 --> 00:27:40.319 incorporate links to other 899 00:27:40.320 --> 00:27:42.329 texts and other kinds of materials 900 00:27:42.330 --> 00:27:44.159 beyond it. But also because 901 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:45.160 even within it, 902 00:27:46.230 --> 00:27:48.359 one of the areas 903 00:27:48.360 --> 00:27:49.919 of Shakespeare editing that has 904 00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:51.899 really been under-theorized is what 905 00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:53.879 another commentary does. 906 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:55.229 And we know, of course, that one of 907 00:27:55.230 --> 00:27:56.909 the things it does is to tell you 908 00:27:56.910 --> 00:27:59.489 what a word might have meant. 909 00:27:59.490 --> 00:28:01.499 It might tell you 910 00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:03.389 where else Shakespeare uses the 911 00:28:03.390 --> 00:28:05.339 word. It might tell you 912 00:28:05.340 --> 00:28:07.439 about the socio-cultural 913 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.729 relevance of a particular event 914 00:28:09.730 --> 00:28:11.129 that is connected with it. 915 00:28:11.130 --> 00:28:12.059 All of those kinds of things. 916 00:28:12.060 --> 00:28:13.259 It might talk about the performance 917 00:28:13.260 --> 00:28:15.269 history of what different actors 918 00:28:15.270 --> 00:28:17.009 have done with this line, with this 919 00:28:17.010 --> 00:28:18.449 entry, with this death, or whatever 920 00:28:18.450 --> 00:28:19.450 it might be. 921 00:28:20.340 --> 00:28:22.139 But when they're all on the page in 922 00:28:22.140 --> 00:28:24.629 the same kind of typeface, 923 00:28:24.630 --> 00:28:25.739 how do you find your way through 924 00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:27.840 that maze of material? 925 00:28:29.130 --> 00:28:30.959 Well, perhaps digital will be a 926 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:32.999 space in which a virtual 927 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:34.889 commentary can help 928 00:28:34.890 --> 00:28:36.059 people navigate 929 00:28:37.260 --> 00:28:38.939 the extent of the materials without 930 00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:40.589 feeling simply overburdened and 931 00:28:40.590 --> 00:28:42.089 overwhelmed by it. 932 00:28:42.090 --> 00:28:43.949 One of the things that the 933 00:28:43.950 --> 00:28:46.139 whole experience of our 934 00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:48.229 engagement with the virtual world is 935 00:28:48.230 --> 00:28:50.149 our expectation that we can 936 00:28:50.150 --> 00:28:52.099 find ways to navigate through it. 937 00:28:53.420 --> 00:28:55.099 We're not lost in it. 938 00:28:55.100 --> 00:28:57.649 There are how many 939 00:28:57.650 --> 00:28:59.509 gazillion pages 940 00:28:59.510 --> 00:29:01.189 of websites that have Shakespeare 941 00:29:01.190 --> 00:29:02.179 material on? 942 00:29:02.180 --> 00:29:04.339 But thank you, Google. 943 00:29:04.340 --> 00:29:06.289 We can find ways in which we feed 944 00:29:06.290 --> 00:29:08.089 in a search term, and we work 945 00:29:08.090 --> 00:29:10.099 through, and we find what we want. 946 00:29:10.100 --> 00:29:11.929 And we're not lost 947 00:29:11.930 --> 00:29:13.999 in the massive 948 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.009 availability of material beyond. 949 00:29:16.010 --> 00:29:17.869 Well, that might help. 950 00:29:17.870 --> 00:29:19.639 That might help us make a different 951 00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:20.869 kind of Shakespeare edition 952 00:29:20.870 --> 00:29:21.799 possible. 953 00:29:21.800 --> 00:29:23.359 But it's far too early to say what 954 00:29:23.360 --> 00:29:23.989 it'll look like. 955 00:29:23.990 --> 00:29:24.990 Yeah. Well, 956 00:29:26.120 --> 00:29:27.229 I want to ask you one or two 957 00:29:27.230 --> 00:29:28.189 questions about-- so, this is the 958 00:29:28.190 --> 00:29:28.999 Year of the Humanities. 959 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:30.079 I want to ask you one or two questions 960 00:29:30.080 --> 00:29:32.239 about your work as a humanities 961 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:33.240 scholar. 962 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:35.629 And the first one has to do 963 00:29:35.630 --> 00:29:37.429 with the kind of, as I'm sure you 964 00:29:37.430 --> 00:29:39.289 know and most people know, the kind 965 00:29:39.290 --> 00:29:40.429 of public discourse about the 966 00:29:40.430 --> 00:29:41.929 humanities at this time is one that 967 00:29:41.930 --> 00:29:43.549 is full of skepticism. 968 00:29:43.550 --> 00:29:44.550 And what's the value of the humanities? A 969 00:29:45.530 --> 00:29:46.462 lot of people discussing that. 970 00:29:46.463 --> 00:29:47.463 I 971 00:29:48.470 --> 00:29:50.629 feel like one of the first 972 00:29:50.630 --> 00:29:52.279 things that people who are willing 973 00:29:52.280 --> 00:29:54.079 to grant that there's value to the 974 00:29:54.080 --> 00:29:55.939 humanities will agree on, it has 975 00:29:55.940 --> 00:29:57.289 to do with writing and communication 976 00:29:57.290 --> 00:29:58.639 and where the humanities can help 977 00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:00.319 you do this. You are someone who I 978 00:30:00.320 --> 00:30:01.999 think is deservedly described as 979 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:03.229 being a fantastic writer. 980 00:30:03.230 --> 00:30:04.249 You've been described by colleagues, 981 00:30:04.250 --> 00:30:05.599 and also, I will say, even on 982 00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:07.459 Amazon.com, people who read 983 00:30:07.460 --> 00:30:08.770 your books at the bottom-- readers 984 00:30:09.800 --> 00:30:10.789 will comment that you're-- 985 00:30:10.790 --> 00:30:11.599 I've never looked. 986 00:30:11.600 --> 00:30:13.849 I honestly have never looked. 987 00:30:13.850 --> 00:30:14.809 They're there, trust me. 988 00:30:14.810 --> 00:30:15.810 They're there. 989 00:30:16.790 --> 00:30:18.679 So I just wonder if you can 990 00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:21.349 say a little bit about what that 991 00:30:21.350 --> 00:30:22.999 means to you. What is good writing 992 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:24.409 mean to you both in your career to 993 00:30:24.410 --> 00:30:25.519 you as a writer and then also as a 994 00:30:25.520 --> 00:30:25.969 teacher? 995 00:30:25.970 --> 00:30:27.589 I have a problem with this notion 996 00:30:27.590 --> 00:30:28.559 that one of the things that 997 00:30:28.560 --> 00:30:29.740 humanities gives you is becoming 998 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:31.960 a good writer. 999 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:34.759 When we are asked 1000 00:30:36.380 --> 00:30:38.389 threateningly because it's never 1001 00:30:38.390 --> 00:30:40.579 a non-threatening question, what 1002 00:30:40.580 --> 00:30:42.079 are the humanities for? 1003 00:30:42.080 --> 00:30:43.969 How do they fit you for the future? 1004 00:30:43.970 --> 00:30:45.469 Why should you be a college student 1005 00:30:45.470 --> 00:30:47.029 who is an English major or History 1006 00:30:47.030 --> 00:30:48.659 major for four years? 1007 00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:50.539 And what's that going to bring 1008 00:30:50.540 --> 00:30:51.649 to when you go out into the 1009 00:30:51.650 --> 00:30:52.650 workforce? 1010 00:30:54.050 --> 00:30:55.909 We have learned 1011 00:30:55.910 --> 00:30:58.279 defensively to articulate concepts 1012 00:30:58.280 --> 00:31:00.199 about the ability to read 1013 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:02.299 well, to critical thinking, 1014 00:31:02.300 --> 00:31:04.459 to write well as things 1015 00:31:04.460 --> 00:31:06.769 that English majors can do. 1016 00:31:06.770 --> 00:31:07.909 That's my subject. I think History 1017 00:31:07.910 --> 00:31:09.679 majors can do that as well. 1018 00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:11.719 And so can Romance languages majors 1019 00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:12.769 and whatever. 1020 00:31:14.990 --> 00:31:16.849 And I do believe it's true, 1021 00:31:16.850 --> 00:31:18.799 but it's not important for me. 1022 00:31:20.120 --> 00:31:22.099 I have never conceived of 1023 00:31:22.100 --> 00:31:23.509 the activity of four years of 1024 00:31:23.510 --> 00:31:25.819 college as vocational 1025 00:31:25.820 --> 00:31:26.820 training. 1026 00:31:27.470 --> 00:31:29.929 It's about development of the self 1027 00:31:29.930 --> 00:31:31.789 and exploration of who you 1028 00:31:31.790 --> 00:31:33.679 might be and who you're going to 1029 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:35.479 have to live with for the rest of 1030 00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:37.549 your life. The self that you grow 1031 00:31:37.550 --> 00:31:38.550 into. The 1032 00:31:39.890 --> 00:31:41.749 person at 18 is not the person at 1033 00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:43.160 22 who graduates. 1034 00:31:44.270 --> 00:31:46.039 And that difference is, for me, 1035 00:31:46.040 --> 00:31:47.779 greater than the difference between 1036 00:31:47.780 --> 00:31:49.759 the person at 30 and 34 1037 00:31:49.760 --> 00:31:51.949 or 40 and 44 or 1038 00:31:51.950 --> 00:31:53.389 58 and 62. 1039 00:31:53.390 --> 00:31:55.099 I mean, that's a moment of 1040 00:31:55.100 --> 00:31:56.213 transformative maturation. 1041 00:31:59.030 --> 00:32:01.369 And the humanities are a way of 1042 00:32:01.370 --> 00:32:02.869 engaging with that process of 1043 00:32:02.870 --> 00:32:04.699 maturation because of 1044 00:32:04.700 --> 00:32:05.959 what it demands of you 1045 00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:06.960 intellectually 1046 00:32:08.150 --> 00:32:10.699 and of your requirement 1047 00:32:10.700 --> 00:32:12.889 in the humanities to think 1048 00:32:12.890 --> 00:32:14.899 about the social world in which 1049 00:32:14.900 --> 00:32:15.900 we all live 1050 00:32:16.910 --> 00:32:18.829 and which is directly relevant to 1051 00:32:18.830 --> 00:32:20.659 the material and 1052 00:32:20.660 --> 00:32:22.309 its historical, cultural meaning 1053 00:32:22.310 --> 00:32:23.869 that you're engaged with. 1054 00:32:23.870 --> 00:32:25.729 Be that as a student of American 1055 00:32:25.730 --> 00:32:27.559 history or as a student of English 1056 00:32:27.560 --> 00:32:29.149 literature, it's the same kind of 1057 00:32:29.150 --> 00:32:31.579 process of engaging with 1058 00:32:31.580 --> 00:32:33.679 how cultures come to be 1059 00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:35.779 and what individuals do within 1060 00:32:35.780 --> 00:32:37.189 their cultures. 1061 00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:39.499 I do believe in a very traditional 1062 00:32:39.500 --> 00:32:41.329 notion of a value that 1063 00:32:41.330 --> 00:32:43.219 the humanities give you, which is 1064 00:32:43.220 --> 00:32:44.220 a value of citizenship. And 1065 00:32:45.270 --> 00:32:47.509 that what is central to our social 1066 00:32:47.510 --> 00:32:49.519 existence is being 1067 00:32:49.520 --> 00:32:51.499 members of a community, 1068 00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:52.939 be it a small community or a large 1069 00:32:52.940 --> 00:32:55.219 community, of which the largest 1070 00:32:55.220 --> 00:32:57.109 community is the community of 1071 00:32:57.110 --> 00:32:58.879 humankind. 1072 00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:00.469 But the other large community is of 1073 00:33:00.470 --> 00:33:02.509 a structure of nation, which most 1074 00:33:02.510 --> 00:33:04.729 of us engage with 1075 00:33:04.730 --> 00:33:06.599 for a long time 1076 00:33:06.600 --> 00:33:08.419 and tend 1077 00:33:08.420 --> 00:33:11.209 most people to stay within the same 1078 00:33:11.210 --> 00:33:13.039 cultural or social organization of 1079 00:33:13.040 --> 00:33:14.569 nation throughout their lives. 1080 00:33:15.710 --> 00:33:17.989 We have to learn how to be that 1081 00:33:17.990 --> 00:33:20.179 citizen, how to connect 1082 00:33:20.180 --> 00:33:22.039 with our country, and 1083 00:33:22.040 --> 00:33:23.209 what it means, therefore, to be 1084 00:33:23.210 --> 00:33:25.490 concerned for other citizens. 1085 00:33:27.230 --> 00:33:29.419 If there is one area in which this 1086 00:33:29.420 --> 00:33:31.309 discourse has been for me most 1087 00:33:31.310 --> 00:33:33.919 striking in my move from 1088 00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:35.749 working in the UK to working 1089 00:33:35.750 --> 00:33:37.789 in the U.S., it 1090 00:33:37.790 --> 00:33:38.930 is actually over 1091 00:33:39.950 --> 00:33:41.539 the whole question of health care 1092 00:33:42.560 --> 00:33:44.899 and the U.S.'s anxiety 1093 00:33:44.900 --> 00:33:46.424 about what health care might 1094 00:33:47.570 --> 00:33:48.859 mean. 1095 00:33:48.860 --> 00:33:50.869 Because in the UK, we've grown 1096 00:33:50.870 --> 00:33:52.879 up believing that we 1097 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:54.979 have a responsibility for 1098 00:33:54.980 --> 00:33:56.659 all our citizens. 1099 00:33:56.660 --> 00:33:58.729 And therefore that all 1100 00:33:58.730 --> 00:34:00.859 of us, rich or poor, share 1101 00:34:00.860 --> 00:34:03.079 the burden of creating a healthy 1102 00:34:03.080 --> 00:34:05.059 nation, and 1103 00:34:05.060 --> 00:34:06.949 that health care is a part 1104 00:34:06.950 --> 00:34:07.950 of that work. 1105 00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:10.698 I don't hear the same 1106 00:34:10.699 --> 00:34:11.855 language in the U.S.. 1107 00:34:11.856 --> 00:34:13.789 Not from left 1108 00:34:13.790 --> 00:34:15.799 or right, not from Democrat 1109 00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:17.899 or Republican, because 1110 00:34:17.900 --> 00:34:19.879 somehow that's not 1111 00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:21.738 a rhetoric that Americans 1112 00:34:21.739 --> 00:34:23.629 are quite comfortable buying 1113 00:34:23.630 --> 00:34:24.630 into. 1114 00:34:25.250 --> 00:34:27.919 A notion of a broader responsibility 1115 00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:30.229 for others that isn't just that 1116 00:34:30.230 --> 00:34:32.448 about of charitable giving, 1117 00:34:32.449 --> 00:34:34.669 but is that of a really 1118 00:34:34.670 --> 00:34:36.559 committed social responsibility that 1119 00:34:36.560 --> 00:34:38.209 we articulate through notions of 1120 00:34:38.210 --> 00:34:40.369 government and 1121 00:34:40.370 --> 00:34:42.888 national or statewide care. 1122 00:34:42.889 --> 00:34:43.968 One of the things that the 1123 00:34:43.969 --> 00:34:45.919 humanities are 1124 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:48.499 about as an experience 1125 00:34:48.500 --> 00:34:50.509 is the plain fact that not 1126 00:34:50.510 --> 00:34:52.428 all of your life, and not 1127 00:34:52.429 --> 00:34:53.689 necessarily the most important 1128 00:34:53.690 --> 00:34:55.609 things in your life, have to do with 1129 00:34:55.610 --> 00:34:56.610 your work time. 1130 00:34:58.220 --> 00:35:00.049 You have to live with the person 1131 00:35:00.050 --> 00:35:01.849 you are when you're not at work. 1132 00:35:03.230 --> 00:35:05.299 And I hope 1133 00:35:05.300 --> 00:35:06.739 that one of the things that my 1134 00:35:06.740 --> 00:35:08.749 engagement with Shakespeare 1135 00:35:08.750 --> 00:35:10.999 as a representative of the arts, 1136 00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.699 in this case, theater and drama, 1137 00:35:13.700 --> 00:35:15.859 is about is 1138 00:35:15.860 --> 00:35:17.719 what you might do when you're not 1139 00:35:17.720 --> 00:35:18.720 in the office. 1140 00:35:19.850 --> 00:35:21.739 I don't expect that people 1141 00:35:21.740 --> 00:35:23.779 apply crucial 1142 00:35:23.780 --> 00:35:25.729 parts of the experience of thinking 1143 00:35:25.730 --> 00:35:27.589 about Shakespeare when 1144 00:35:27.590 --> 00:35:29.629 they're preparing a strategic plan 1145 00:35:29.630 --> 00:35:30.949 for their division of a corporate 1146 00:35:30.950 --> 00:35:32.149 entity. 1147 00:35:32.150 --> 00:35:33.949 But I do hope that something about 1148 00:35:33.950 --> 00:35:35.059 the engagement with Shakespeare is 1149 00:35:35.060 --> 00:35:36.349 so exciting. They want to go on 1150 00:35:36.350 --> 00:35:37.729 doing it. 1151 00:35:37.730 --> 00:35:39.259 And that I see one of my 1152 00:35:39.260 --> 00:35:41.269 responsibilities as 1153 00:35:41.270 --> 00:35:42.739 an educator within the university 1154 00:35:42.740 --> 00:35:44.539 and a humanities educator within the 1155 00:35:44.540 --> 00:35:46.489 university of 1156 00:35:46.490 --> 00:35:48.739 giving people a kind of habit 1157 00:35:48.740 --> 00:35:49.769 and a need. 1158 00:35:50.870 --> 00:35:52.759 I need to go 1159 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:54.409 to theater regularly. 1160 00:35:54.410 --> 00:35:56.779 I need to watch movies regularly. 1161 00:35:56.780 --> 00:35:58.609 I need, beyond on my own areas 1162 00:35:58.610 --> 00:36:00.529 of direct interest, to go to art 1163 00:36:00.530 --> 00:36:02.449 galleries regularly and to listen 1164 00:36:02.450 --> 00:36:04.429 to symphony orchestras regularly. 1165 00:36:04.430 --> 00:36:05.869 And without that, I get a kind of 1166 00:36:05.870 --> 00:36:07.789 withdrawal symptom in which 1167 00:36:07.790 --> 00:36:09.739 I need the experience of 1168 00:36:09.740 --> 00:36:11.959 blowing my mind through encountering 1169 00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:13.819 that kind of art 1170 00:36:13.820 --> 00:36:15.829 experience somewhere, somehow. 1171 00:36:15.830 --> 00:36:18.319 Live, recorded, whatever it may be. 1172 00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:20.599 And is the last thing I wanted to 1173 00:36:20.600 --> 00:36:21.979 ask you about is closely connected 1174 00:36:21.980 --> 00:36:23.539 to that is that this is-- you've 1175 00:36:23.540 --> 00:36:25.369 written about the fact that delight 1176 00:36:25.370 --> 00:36:27.079 is a crucial part of the humanities. 1177 00:36:27.080 --> 00:36:29.329 This is not this-- it is pleasure, 1178 00:36:29.330 --> 00:36:31.279 delight, having fun, 1179 00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:32.269 and doing these things. 1180 00:36:32.270 --> 00:36:33.379 You've written that this is not only 1181 00:36:33.380 --> 00:36:34.909 is it an essential part of the 1182 00:36:34.910 --> 00:36:36.019 humanities, but it's something that 1183 00:36:36.020 --> 00:36:37.489 other governments and people may 1184 00:36:37.490 --> 00:36:39.079 look on with distrust. 1185 00:36:39.080 --> 00:36:40.939 But that it really is one 1186 00:36:40.940 --> 00:36:42.769 of the core things that 1187 00:36:42.770 --> 00:36:43.909 are important about the humanities. 1188 00:36:43.910 --> 00:36:45.070 I think it is absolutely core. 1189 00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:49.279 The pleasure the 1190 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:51.709 humanities makes possible, 1191 00:36:51.710 --> 00:36:53.569 which is both intellectual 1192 00:36:53.570 --> 00:36:55.639 and emotional, and it 1193 00:36:55.640 --> 00:36:56.792 is never purely intellectual, that 1194 00:36:58.640 --> 00:37:00.349 seems to me to be a crucial part of 1195 00:37:00.350 --> 00:37:01.350 what it means to be human, that 1196 00:37:02.240 --> 00:37:04.280 we put our intellectual abilities 1197 00:37:05.330 --> 00:37:07.339 to service of something else, that 1198 00:37:07.340 --> 00:37:09.349 we're not just brains living apart 1199 00:37:09.350 --> 00:37:11.149 from our bodies, but that our brains 1200 00:37:11.150 --> 00:37:12.139 are in our bodies. 1201 00:37:12.140 --> 00:37:13.969 And our bodies are a space 1202 00:37:13.970 --> 00:37:16.249 full of heart and 1203 00:37:16.250 --> 00:37:17.239 soul. 1204 00:37:17.240 --> 00:37:18.619 And that may be spiritual life, and 1205 00:37:18.620 --> 00:37:19.999 it may be social life, and it may be 1206 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:21.919 all those other things that, for 1207 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:23.749 me, are a crucial part of 1208 00:37:23.750 --> 00:37:25.340 the experience of being alive. 1209 00:37:26.390 --> 00:37:28.399 And if 1210 00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:30.229 my work doesn't connect with 1211 00:37:30.230 --> 00:37:32.179 that pleasure, then 1212 00:37:32.180 --> 00:37:34.789 it's a rather dour undertaking 1213 00:37:34.790 --> 00:37:37.399 that I don't really find appealing. 1214 00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:39.559 I am incredibly fortunate, 1215 00:37:39.560 --> 00:37:40.759 and I know it. 1216 00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:42.949 And I keep reminding myself 1217 00:37:42.950 --> 00:37:44.809 of it that I am able to do 1218 00:37:44.810 --> 00:37:46.699 something I love day in, day 1219 00:37:46.700 --> 00:37:48.919 out. Most people aren't 1220 00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:50.839 given that opportunity. 1221 00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:52.729 That's something I've been lucky 1222 00:37:52.730 --> 00:37:53.730 enough to have. 1223 00:37:55.160 --> 00:37:57.499 I want people to have the excitement 1224 00:37:57.500 --> 00:38:00.079 and the pleasure of doing the things 1225 00:38:00.080 --> 00:38:02.839 analogous to what gives me pleasure 1226 00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:05.209 as part of their experience. 1227 00:38:05.210 --> 00:38:06.829 Now, it may be that people have that 1228 00:38:06.830 --> 00:38:08.869 excitement out of simply making 1229 00:38:08.870 --> 00:38:09.870 millions, 1230 00:38:10.730 --> 00:38:12.499 but I don't think so. 1231 00:38:12.500 --> 00:38:15.169 And I don't mean that 1232 00:38:15.170 --> 00:38:16.639 the delight of going to see a great 1233 00:38:16.640 --> 00:38:18.319 Shakespeare production is better 1234 00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:19.939 than the delight of playing with my 1235 00:38:19.940 --> 00:38:20.940 grandkids. 1236 00:38:21.740 --> 00:38:22.740 But I want both. 1237 00:38:23.630 --> 00:38:25.519 And my life would be poorer, 1238 00:38:25.520 --> 00:38:27.529 immeasurably poorer, without 1239 00:38:27.530 --> 00:38:29.959 those two things coexisting. 1240 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:30.859 And I'm looking forward to the 1241 00:38:30.860 --> 00:38:32.089 moment at which I start to take my 1242 00:38:32.090 --> 00:38:33.199 grandkids to see Shakespeare 1243 00:38:33.200 --> 00:38:34.069 productions. 1244 00:38:34.070 --> 00:38:35.509 I'm positive, based on this 1245 00:38:35.510 --> 00:38:36.859 conversation and from reading your 1246 00:38:36.860 --> 00:38:38.119 work, that they will love it. 1247 00:38:38.120 --> 00:38:39.120 I hope so. 1248 00:38:39.709 --> 00:38:40.579 Peter Holland, thank you very much. 1249 00:38:40.580 --> 00:38:41.580 Thank you. 1250 00:38:42.402 --> 00:38:43.402 That's 1251 00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:46.373 it for this edition of the Year of 1252 00:38:46.374 --> 00:38:47.374 the Humanities podcast. Next 1253 00:38:48.330 --> 00:38:49.529 time, our guest will be Marcia 1254 00:38:49.530 --> 00:38:51.239 Chatelain, Professor of History at 1255 00:38:51.240 --> 00:38:52.889 Georgetown University. 1256 00:38:52.890 --> 00:38:53.999 For more information on the Year of 1257 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:55.679 the Humanities, visit our website at 1258 00:38:55.680 --> 00:38:56.680 humanities.pitt.edu. 1259 00:38:58.440 --> 00:38:59.440 Thanks for listening.
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