How (and Why?) to Think Radically: An Interview with Anthony Bogues

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Hello and welcome to the fourth

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installment of the University of

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Pittsburgh Humanities podcast,

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a series devoted to exploring the

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humanities, their intersections with

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other disciplines, and their value

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in the public world.

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I'm Dan Kubis, assistant director of

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the Humanities Center at Pitt.

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And my guest today

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is Anthony Bogues, the Asa Messer

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professor of Humanities and Critical

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Theory at Brown University, where he

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also serves as professor of Africana

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Studies and director of the Center

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for the Study of Slavery and

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Justice.

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It is important for us to think

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about the humanities

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as a way in which we can

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understand the world as something

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that we do.

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That is we make,

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whether for good or bad, but

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that we make it.

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Professor Bogues began his academic

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career at the University of the West

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Indies in his native Jamaica and

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moved to Brown in the year 2000.

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He is focused on a broad range of

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topics throughout his career,

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including intellectual and political

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history, literature and literary

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criticism, and most recently, the

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visual arts.

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In all of his writing, Professor

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Bogues encourages readers to

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question the limits of inherited

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critical categories and to capture

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as much human experience as possible

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in the language and concepts they

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use to understand the world.

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At the core of his work are his

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readings of artists and thinkers who

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have been excluded from the Western

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tradition, including Sylvia Wynter,

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George Lamming, C.L.R.

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James, and, more recently, the

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Haitian painter Edouard Duval

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Carrié.

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For Professor Bogues, these figures

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and their work have the potential to

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rewrite Western intellectual history

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in a new, more fully human way.

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Not only because they are new voices

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to the tradition but because they

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understand and value the arts'

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ability to express so broad a range

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of human experience.

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In his focus on the radical

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political potential of marginal art

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in artists, Professor Bogues

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maintains a sense of optimism

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and a respect for what intellectuals

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like W.E.B. Du Bois, Frantz

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Fanon, and others have been able to

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accomplish in the past.

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He also strives to break down

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barriers that separate the

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university from the rest of the

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world, an effort that he says comes

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partly from his work in politics and

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journalism before he entered the

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university.

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I began by asking him about this

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history and about what motivated him

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to begin his career as an academic.

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So I want to begin by asking you a

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bit about your career because you're

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not someone who has spent your

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entire career in an educational

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setting.

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You worked for the People's National

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Party and also the Sugar Workers

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Cooperative Council in Jamaica

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before becoming an academic.

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Can you talk a bit about why you

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made the decision to become an

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academic and enter the university?

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I'm not sure you want to hear that

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story because that story

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is very much, very much a pragmatic

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story. And it's not a story

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that was

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driven by a certain passion.

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It's a pragmatic story in that

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those of us who were

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handed a certain set of positions

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in the country--

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it became very clear in the 1980s

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that the geopolitical

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and the internal political

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situations had shifted dramatically

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to the right, in my view.

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And those of us who

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had spent a great deal of our time

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not thinking about the

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university but more

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thinking about a certain kind of

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activism to transform

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the society.

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Some of us decided that we needed to

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think about what next to do,

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given the fact of the shift-- the

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geopolitical and internal

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shifts.

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And that's how I ended up doing my

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Ph.D. It wasn't just my passion

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that says I would.

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It was to say, "Okay, what next

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do I do?"

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given the set of circumstances

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in which I lived at that point

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in time.

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What that has meant, though, is

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that my

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relationship to the humanities

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is not one in which

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is conventional.

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In other words, that

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there is a way in which the

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humanities, the

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things around questions of

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citizenship, things are all a

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certain sort of classical European

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text.

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And what has happened

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is that, certainly, as

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a scholar of the humanities,

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I've been driven to

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think through things in a different

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ways. Part of that comes from a set

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of experiences,

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but also part of it comes from

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trying to think about

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the world in a different way.

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And therefore,

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for me, humanities in the

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university is

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about, quite frankly, trying

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to bring the world into the

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university, trying to

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think about how we

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can understand this

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complicated world that we now live

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in through a

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critical lens

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of various fields of the

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humanities.

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Well, you also spent the first seven

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years of your academic career based

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in the University of the West Indies

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in Jamaica.

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And then most of the year since

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based at Brown in

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the U.S.

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Does the effort you describe of

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bringing the world into the

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university differ for you in those

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two locations?

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Absolutely. Because when you

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are in Jamaica or when you are in

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South Africa, just for argument's

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sake, two places that I

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work in, the

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world is at your doorstep and

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in your face all the time.

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You cannot escape it.

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Any theoretical formulations

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that you are developing, whether

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they be literary, philosophical,

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or historical, or even

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artistic,

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have to take into account the

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world that faces

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you. In the United States,

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particularly in an elite university

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like which I

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now teach and which has been

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very good and which I

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have a great deal of affection for,

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the

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world is more outside

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of. And you have to

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struggle a bit more to bring the

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world in.

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And it is, I think,

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that struggle, certainly,

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in the United States about bringing

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the world in, about trying to find

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ways of analysis,

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particularly critical analysis

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about the world-- a kind of

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different hermeneutics

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that takes the world into

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consideration.

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It is that I think that I've tried

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to spend some time trying to think

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about because I live in the States.

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Well, I also want to ask you about

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your writing and

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to start by asking you about C.L.R.

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James, who is the figure

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that you've returned to most

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frequently throughout your career.

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Can you say a bit about why he

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has played such a central role

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for you and what it is about his

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work that keeps you returning to it

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time and time again?

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I mean, I think that for James,

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as so many persons may know, is

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considered to be the most

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important 20th-century Caribbean

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intellectual. He

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wrote historical text and

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political theory.

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He wrote on literature. He wrote on

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Shakespeare.

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He wrote Mariners, Renegades, and

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Castaways is the book on

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Herman Melville. He

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wrote on philosophy on Hegel.

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And he

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wrote on cricket, Beyond a

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Boundary, among many other things.

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And what has always been

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interesting in the breadth

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of work that C.L.R.

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has done is that he has always been

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trying to think about the

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world and to think about it

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historically and contemporaneously.

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In other words, always trying to

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think if something appears in

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the world, whether it is

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a piece of art

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or whether it is a

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sort of fiction-- new fiction

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writers,

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whether it is a historical

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phenomenon or, sorry,

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a contemporary phenomenon.

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He is always trying to think through

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how can we think about that in

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relationship to a set of

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things called history, politics, and

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so on, without identifying

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those of any singular

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disciplines.

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Because if you remember, C.L.R.

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never went to university.

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So that was, in my view, a great

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advantage in many ways in that

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he, therefore, meant he did not

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become attached to any particular

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discipline, disciplinary protocol

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of formation.

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So my consistent return to

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C.L.R is a return to

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trying to understand a certain

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method, a certain way

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of looking at the world, a certain

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engagement with the world,

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and to understand that that

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engagement actually begins

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with the people from below.

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And so that

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if-- that is the most important

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influence, I think, intellectually

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in my intellectual life.

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Alongside that, I think you have to

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put W.E.B. Du Bois,

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and you have to put Frantz Fanon,

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and Sylvia

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Wynter as

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figures with whom I draw from--

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Hannah Arendt.

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People who I draw from - Michel

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00:09:14.390 --> 00:09:16.759
Foucault - but don't necessarily

291
00:09:16.760 --> 00:09:18.739
agree with in many, many

292
00:09:18.740 --> 00:09:20.899
ways. Because I think

293
00:09:20.900 --> 00:09:22.639
part of being a certain kind of

294
00:09:22.640 --> 00:09:24.709
critical scholar is

295
00:09:24.710 --> 00:09:26.959
that you should

296
00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:28.879
not necessarily begin

297
00:09:28.880 --> 00:09:30.979
with a certain framework

298
00:09:30.980 --> 00:09:32.269
which you have adopted,

299
00:09:33.290 --> 00:09:34.698
whether it is a Jamesian framework,

300
00:09:34.699 --> 00:09:36.589
a Foucauldian,

301
00:09:36.590 --> 00:09:38.509
or Wynterian framework, although

302
00:09:38.510 --> 00:09:40.099
I know in the Academy we like to do

303
00:09:40.100 --> 00:09:40.434
that. Somebody is a [inaudible], somebody is a Foucauldian, somebody is a

304
00:09:40.435 --> 00:09:41.435
whatever. But

305
00:09:45.140 --> 00:09:47.569
really, to try and understand

306
00:09:47.570 --> 00:09:49.219
that each of these particular

307
00:09:49.220 --> 00:09:50.220
figures

308
00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:52.819
who obviously shaped what you think

309
00:09:52.820 --> 00:09:55.009
because you read them often,

310
00:09:55.010 --> 00:09:57.499
that they essentially

311
00:09:57.500 --> 00:09:58.579
are figures who ask all sorts of

312
00:09:58.580 --> 00:10:00.529
questions about life and

313
00:10:00.530 --> 00:10:01.969
human experience at that point in

314
00:10:01.970 --> 00:10:03.499
time-- in the time that they are

315
00:10:03.500 --> 00:10:04.579
operating.

316
00:10:04.580 --> 00:10:05.779
And therefore, to try and think

317
00:10:05.780 --> 00:10:07.639
about those questions and to

318
00:10:07.640 --> 00:10:09.529
try and think about, therefore, a

319
00:10:09.530 --> 00:10:10.909
certain tradition that may

320
00:10:10.910 --> 00:10:12.529
constitute those questions.

321
00:10:12.530 --> 00:10:14.449
So that's how I operate.

322
00:10:14.450 --> 00:10:16.519
But for James, who's

323
00:10:16.520 --> 00:10:17.732
really, as you say, pivotal--

324
00:10:18.920 --> 00:10:21.229
he's pivotal because

325
00:10:21.230 --> 00:10:22.457
of the ways in which he operate.

326
00:10:22.458 --> 00:10:24.319
The way he crosses,

327
00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:26.089
what we would say the academy, he

328
00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:27.709
crosses disciplinary boundaries

329
00:10:27.710 --> 00:10:28.710
seamlessly

330
00:10:29.930 --> 00:10:31.989
and that, I think, is fascinating.

331
00:10:31.990 --> 00:10:33.019
Well, your description of the way

332
00:10:33.020 --> 00:10:34.669
that you draw from other writers

333
00:10:34.670 --> 00:10:36.679
work without wholly adopting their

334
00:10:36.680 --> 00:10:38.329
frameworks actually reminds me of

335
00:10:38.330 --> 00:10:39.679
the way that you approach Hannah

336
00:10:39.680 --> 00:10:41.239
Arendt, and in particular, her

337
00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:43.339
approach to politics.

338
00:10:43.340 --> 00:10:45.229
You write of Arendt's politics that

339
00:10:45.230 --> 00:10:47.269
it is simply too narrow because

340
00:10:47.270 --> 00:10:48.559
it doesn't include social

341
00:10:48.560 --> 00:10:50.719
considerations. And that we can see

342
00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:52.969
this narrow view, her narrow view,

343
00:10:52.970 --> 00:10:54.559
in some of the political positions

344
00:10:54.560 --> 00:10:55.639
she held.

345
00:10:55.640 --> 00:10:57.649
Yet Arendt is still,

346
00:10:57.650 --> 00:10:59.089
for you, one of the most important

347
00:10:59.090 --> 00:11:01.099
thinkers of the 20th century.

348
00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:02.569
And you say one of the most

349
00:11:02.570 --> 00:11:04.189
important political philosophers of

350
00:11:04.190 --> 00:11:05.869
the 20th century more broadly.

351
00:11:05.870 --> 00:11:07.309
Yeah, because I think that one of

352
00:11:07.310 --> 00:11:09.319
the things that she does,

353
00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.149
and where I began to find her

354
00:11:11.150 --> 00:11:13.339
important, was her approach

355
00:11:13.340 --> 00:11:15.019
to political philosophy.

356
00:11:15.020 --> 00:11:16.549
Bear in mind that my PhD is in

357
00:11:16.550 --> 00:11:17.719
political theory, political

358
00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:18.709
philosophy.

359
00:11:18.710 --> 00:11:20.539
Okay. So I had to spend time within

360
00:11:20.540 --> 00:11:21.540
that discipline. And

361
00:11:22.790 --> 00:11:24.649
I was very uneasy

362
00:11:24.650 --> 00:11:26.629
with what I was reading in

363
00:11:26.630 --> 00:11:27.949
the discipline. I mean, you read it,

364
00:11:27.950 --> 00:11:30.649
and you had to write papers, etc.,

365
00:11:30.650 --> 00:11:32.809
about it, but there was a very,

366
00:11:32.810 --> 00:11:36.139
very profound unease.

367
00:11:36.140 --> 00:11:37.969
And I think that unease

368
00:11:37.970 --> 00:11:40.159
only became clear to me

369
00:11:40.160 --> 00:11:42.113
as I began to read Hannah

370
00:11:42.114 --> 00:11:43.399
Arendt again differently. No, not

371
00:11:43.400 --> 00:11:44.400
just totalitarianism,

372
00:11:46.040 --> 00:11:47.779
but began to read her entire works.

373
00:11:48.950 --> 00:11:51.079
What became clear to me was

374
00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:53.599
that she was developing

375
00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:55.339
a framework of thinking about

376
00:11:55.340 --> 00:11:57.259
political philosophy that was

377
00:11:57.260 --> 00:11:59.149
not drawing from the conventional

378
00:11:59.150 --> 00:12:00.769
way in which academic political

379
00:12:00.770 --> 00:12:02.539
philosophers thought that is from

380
00:12:02.540 --> 00:12:03.540
Plato, etc., etc.

381
00:12:04.730 --> 00:12:07.039
That she was trying to think about

382
00:12:07.040 --> 00:12:09.199
the age in which she lived then

383
00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.179
and then trying to work through that

384
00:12:11.180 --> 00:12:12.641
age. But are sort of resources that

385
00:12:12.642 --> 00:12:13.519
she had. She studied all the

386
00:12:13.520 --> 00:12:14.410
Heidegger, etc.

387
00:12:14.411 --> 00:12:15.411
And she studied philosophy, and

388
00:12:17.220 --> 00:12:18.629
so Kant was important to her.

389
00:12:18.630 --> 00:12:20.669
I think phenomenology obviously

390
00:12:20.670 --> 00:12:22.559
was important to her, even though I

391
00:12:22.560 --> 00:12:24.479
think she breaks it later

392
00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:25.289
on.

393
00:12:25.290 --> 00:12:27.390
But there is a way in which--

394
00:12:29.490 --> 00:12:31.589
for her, the

395
00:12:31.590 --> 00:12:34.019
politics became a very important

396
00:12:34.020 --> 00:12:35.384
way to think about life.

397
00:12:35.385 --> 00:12:36.385
Not

398
00:12:37.560 --> 00:12:39.929
in the platonic sense of political

399
00:12:39.930 --> 00:12:41.489
knowledge, which is how we were

400
00:12:41.490 --> 00:12:43.289
studying this thing, but to think

401
00:12:43.290 --> 00:12:44.909
about a certain practice of

402
00:12:44.910 --> 00:12:46.049
politics.

403
00:12:46.050 --> 00:12:48.029
And it is that I take

404
00:12:48.030 --> 00:12:50.099
from her a way in which she looks

405
00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:51.929
upon politics as

406
00:12:51.930 --> 00:12:53.879
a way of having to do with

407
00:12:53.880 --> 00:12:55.769
associations, of having to do

408
00:12:55.770 --> 00:12:57.749
with questions of neutrality

409
00:12:57.750 --> 00:13:00.209
and beginnings, of having to do with

410
00:13:00.210 --> 00:13:02.039
issues about how we must

411
00:13:02.040 --> 00:13:03.449
live together. All those kind of

412
00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:05.729
things, to me, are critical issues.

413
00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:08.669
What I disagree with Hannah Arendt

414
00:13:08.670 --> 00:13:10.409
is that, and she makes this very

415
00:13:10.410 --> 00:13:12.179
clear in a remarkable book On

416
00:13:12.180 --> 00:13:13.180
Revolution,

417
00:13:14.040 --> 00:13:17.009
is that for her,

418
00:13:17.010 --> 00:13:18.839
the problem with revolution,

419
00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:19.840
she would argue,

420
00:13:20.760 --> 00:13:22.829
was that - and why it fails

421
00:13:22.830 --> 00:13:24.629
in many places, that is, she has in

422
00:13:24.630 --> 00:13:26.579
her mind the French Revolution

423
00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:28.559
of 1789 - is

424
00:13:28.560 --> 00:13:30.689
in fact, when she says,

425
00:13:30.690 --> 00:13:32.340
the social makes an appearance.

426
00:13:33.810 --> 00:13:35.789
And she

427
00:13:35.790 --> 00:13:37.379
says a social makes an appearance in

428
00:13:37.380 --> 00:13:38.729
the Russian Revolution.

429
00:13:38.730 --> 00:13:40.979
It makes an appearance in the

430
00:13:40.980 --> 00:13:42.059
French Revolution.

431
00:13:42.060 --> 00:13:43.409
It does not make an appearance in

432
00:13:43.410 --> 00:13:44.789
the American Revolution.

433
00:13:44.790 --> 00:13:46.379
And the success of the American

434
00:13:46.380 --> 00:13:48.119
Revolution and its sustainability,

435
00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:50.099
she argues, is because the social

436
00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:51.389
has not appeared.

437
00:13:51.390 --> 00:13:53.189
I want to disagree because I would

438
00:13:53.190 --> 00:13:55.049
want to say that I think that

439
00:13:55.050 --> 00:13:57.569
if you think about politics

440
00:13:57.570 --> 00:13:58.919
as not having anything to do with

441
00:13:58.920 --> 00:14:00.329
the social, then you are going to

442
00:14:00.330 --> 00:14:01.589
run into a whole host of

443
00:14:01.590 --> 00:14:03.269
difficulties with the sort of

444
00:14:03.270 --> 00:14:05.129
questions that are on the agenda

445
00:14:05.130 --> 00:14:06.359
of the political.

446
00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:07.628
Questions of how you manage risk,

447
00:14:07.629 --> 00:14:09.509
questions of gender, questions of

448
00:14:09.510 --> 00:14:11.339
sexuality, and quite frankly,

449
00:14:11.340 --> 00:14:13.169
questions of a certain forms of

450
00:14:13.170 --> 00:14:15.059
radical equality that have to

451
00:14:15.060 --> 00:14:16.889
do with issues

452
00:14:16.890 --> 00:14:18.509
of economic life.

453
00:14:18.510 --> 00:14:20.489
And so, while I respect

454
00:14:20.490 --> 00:14:22.139
her, as you said, and actually

455
00:14:22.140 --> 00:14:23.969
returned to her quite often just to

456
00:14:23.970 --> 00:14:26.129
read her

457
00:14:26.130 --> 00:14:28.139
and have admiration for her, I

458
00:14:28.140 --> 00:14:30.929
also have profound disagreements.

459
00:14:30.930 --> 00:14:33.209
Because I think that position

460
00:14:33.210 --> 00:14:35.159
of evacuating

461
00:14:35.160 --> 00:14:36.899
the social led her to one of the

462
00:14:36.900 --> 00:14:38.909
most atrocious mistakes

463
00:14:38.910 --> 00:14:40.049
that she could have made in her

464
00:14:40.050 --> 00:14:41.899
life, which is not to support

465
00:14:41.900 --> 00:14:44.309
the movement for integration

466
00:14:44.310 --> 00:14:46.109
in the United States and to actually

467
00:14:46.110 --> 00:14:48.029
end up on the side of

468
00:14:48.030 --> 00:14:49.740
segregation objectively.

469
00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:52.199
And that reminds me of one of your

470
00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:54.059
earliest essays on James,

471
00:14:54.060 --> 00:14:55.349
which you published in Caribbean

472
00:14:55.350 --> 00:14:56.639
Quarterly in the early nineties,

473
00:14:56.640 --> 00:14:58.049
where you were trying to bring the

474
00:14:58.050 --> 00:15:00.119
letters that he wrote into his

475
00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:01.120
political framework rather

476
00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:04.079
than saying with some other

477
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:05.130
critics at the time that, "Well,

478
00:15:05.131 --> 00:15:06.989
political concerns are

479
00:15:06.990 --> 00:15:08.459
one thing and social concerns are

480
00:15:08.460 --> 00:15:10.619
another." James, in those letters,

481
00:15:10.620 --> 00:15:12.449
was writing, for example, about the

482
00:15:12.450 --> 00:15:14.309
way that interpersonal relationships

483
00:15:14.310 --> 00:15:16.289
can affect the success or failure of

484
00:15:16.290 --> 00:15:17.459
left-wing political groups.

485
00:15:17.460 --> 00:15:19.379
And that was a broader way of

486
00:15:19.380 --> 00:15:21.089
looking at politics than some other

487
00:15:21.090 --> 00:15:22.499
critics thought at the time.

488
00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:24.389
Yeah, no, I mean, I appreciate

489
00:15:24.390 --> 00:15:25.589
that. As I said, I had not even

490
00:15:25.590 --> 00:15:27.569
finished my dissertation,

491
00:15:27.570 --> 00:15:29.489
but I recall being very

492
00:15:29.490 --> 00:15:31.019
fascinated with these letters

493
00:15:32.040 --> 00:15:33.569
and doing exactly that, trying to

494
00:15:33.570 --> 00:15:34.979
say that James

495
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:37.829
is an extremely political

496
00:15:37.830 --> 00:15:38.830
person.

497
00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:41.729
He's a political personality, par

498
00:15:41.730 --> 00:15:42.730
excellence.

499
00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:45.539
That's how he organizes his entire

500
00:15:45.540 --> 00:15:47.339
life, even when he's thinking about

501
00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:49.199
art, literature,

502
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:50.729
history, etc.

503
00:15:50.730 --> 00:15:52.700
And therefore, to me, those letters

504
00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:56.409
meant that he gave us

505
00:15:56.410 --> 00:15:58.589
an interior view

506
00:15:58.590 --> 00:16:01.169
of a supremely

507
00:16:01.170 --> 00:16:03.059
political figure, as he was

508
00:16:03.060 --> 00:16:04.829
trying to navigate both a personal

509
00:16:04.830 --> 00:16:07.139
relationship and as well as his life

510
00:16:07.140 --> 00:16:08.819
at that point in time.

511
00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:10.739
What I would want to say,

512
00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:13.169
though, is that

513
00:16:13.170 --> 00:16:14.170
in Beyond a Boundary,

514
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:17.549
C.L.R said something which has

515
00:16:18.690 --> 00:16:20.369
stuck in my mind and which has

516
00:16:20.370 --> 00:16:22.229
shaped, I

517
00:16:22.230 --> 00:16:24.269
think, my work and

518
00:16:24.270 --> 00:16:26.070
thinking over the last

519
00:16:27.570 --> 00:16:28.570
decade or

520
00:16:29.430 --> 00:16:30.389
so.

521
00:16:30.390 --> 00:16:32.039
And he has a passage in Beyond the

522
00:16:32.040 --> 00:16:33.239
Boundary in which he says

523
00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:35.740
that-- it was

524
00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:40.439
published in 61.

525
00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:42.119
He has been to the Caribbean where

526
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.069
he was a Federal Labor Party

527
00:16:44.070 --> 00:16:45.029
secretary.

528
00:16:45.030 --> 00:16:47.039
He has had to leave United

529
00:16:47.040 --> 00:16:48.569
States and so on.

530
00:16:48.570 --> 00:16:50.820
He's in his sixties, early sixties,

531
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:53.759
and he has a passage

532
00:16:53.760 --> 00:16:55.679
that says that

533
00:16:55.680 --> 00:16:57.659
his politics and his history

534
00:16:57.660 --> 00:16:59.969
did not tell him everything.

535
00:16:59.970 --> 00:17:01.799
And he says, "The question that

536
00:17:01.800 --> 00:17:03.521
I have to ask is, what did men,"

537
00:17:03.522 --> 00:17:05.608
bear in mind he's his writing

538
00:17:05.609 --> 00:17:07.439
in the sixties, "what did men

539
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:08.690
want and how

540
00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:12.328
are we able to tell what

541
00:17:12.329 --> 00:17:13.329
men wanted?"

542
00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:16.368
I have pondered that passage

543
00:17:16.369 --> 00:17:18.318
for many, many, many

544
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:20.239
times because what he is saying

545
00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:22.639
there-- this is a book on cricket.

546
00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:24.559
What he is saying there is that

547
00:17:24.560 --> 00:17:26.118
history and politics, which he was

548
00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:28.204
deeply involved in for 24,

549
00:17:29.450 --> 00:17:31.279
30 years or more, did not

550
00:17:31.280 --> 00:17:32.659
tell everything about the human

551
00:17:32.660 --> 00:17:34.139
experience.

552
00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:36.049
And so he is trying to find

553
00:17:36.050 --> 00:17:37.909
out what it is about the human

554
00:17:37.910 --> 00:17:40.309
experience that I need to know.

555
00:17:40.310 --> 00:17:41.779
He doesn't give us any answers.

556
00:17:43.520 --> 00:17:44.629
Beyond the Boundaries is partly

557
00:17:44.630 --> 00:17:46.249
autobiographical.

558
00:17:46.250 --> 00:17:47.550
But I like to hear what people-- I

559
00:17:47.551 --> 00:17:49.429
like to listen to what people have

560
00:17:49.430 --> 00:17:52.159
to say about themselves

561
00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:54.109
and take them seriously, even

562
00:17:54.110 --> 00:17:55.130
if I disagree with them.

563
00:17:56.150 --> 00:17:58.399
And so this business

564
00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.254
of the gap that

565
00:18:01.580 --> 00:18:03.739
is there in human experience,

566
00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:05.809
that history and politics cannot

567
00:18:05.810 --> 00:18:07.819
necessarily tell you,

568
00:18:07.820 --> 00:18:09.259
what is it?

569
00:18:09.260 --> 00:18:10.759
And that, in fact, is something

570
00:18:11.780 --> 00:18:14.449
that I've been really

571
00:18:14.450 --> 00:18:15.739
thinking through.

572
00:18:15.740 --> 00:18:17.569
And, in fact, part of it led

573
00:18:17.570 --> 00:18:18.570
to

574
00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.279
a rethinking and a refitting

575
00:18:22.280 --> 00:18:23.280
of my-- a retooling of myself

576
00:18:24.260 --> 00:18:26.479
intellectually to study art.

577
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:27.889
Because as I was saying to myself,

578
00:18:27.890 --> 00:18:29.929
"Okay, perhaps this will give

579
00:18:29.930 --> 00:18:32.149
me the a way

580
00:18:32.150 --> 00:18:34.099
to think about that gap and

581
00:18:34.100 --> 00:18:35.899
what that gap might mean." But it

582
00:18:35.900 --> 00:18:37.699
also tells you the way I think about

583
00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:38.749
our work and writers.

584
00:18:38.750 --> 00:18:40.579
In other words, I'm not a

585
00:18:40.580 --> 00:18:42.589
Jamesian nor

586
00:18:42.590 --> 00:18:44.659
a Foucauldian or

587
00:18:44.660 --> 00:18:46.282
Arendtian or [inaudible] or

588
00:18:46.283 --> 00:18:47.283
whatever.

589
00:18:47.990 --> 00:18:50.239
I read, James says something,

590
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:51.649
I say, "You know, this is really

591
00:18:51.650 --> 00:18:53.689
critical. What does that mean?"

592
00:18:53.690 --> 00:18:56.059
And I then think about my own work

593
00:18:56.060 --> 00:18:57.079
and what it is that I'm doing, the

594
00:18:57.080 --> 00:18:58.519
questions I'm trying to work

595
00:18:58.520 --> 00:18:59.814
through. And then trying to figure,

596
00:18:59.815 --> 00:19:01.939
"Okay, he may have something there.

597
00:19:01.940 --> 00:19:03.289
Let me try and think about what that

598
00:19:03.290 --> 00:19:04.369
might mean."

599
00:19:04.370 --> 00:19:05.239
Well, I'm glad you brought up your

600
00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:07.129
work on art because last year your

601
00:19:07.130 --> 00:19:08.839
book on Edouard Duval Carrié came

602
00:19:08.840 --> 00:19:11.179
out, and I thought that was

603
00:19:11.180 --> 00:19:13.939
a fantastic book for two reasons.

604
00:19:13.940 --> 00:19:15.469
First of all, I'm not very familiar

605
00:19:15.470 --> 00:19:16.999
with Edouard Duval Carrié's work

606
00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.099
myself, so I really enjoyed

607
00:19:19.100 --> 00:19:20.539
being able to become better

608
00:19:20.540 --> 00:19:22.009
acquainted with it.

609
00:19:22.010 --> 00:19:23.299
But also because in reading your

610
00:19:23.300 --> 00:19:25.159
introductory essay,

611
00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:26.869
I felt that having read a number of

612
00:19:26.870 --> 00:19:28.789
your other works, the concerns

613
00:19:28.790 --> 00:19:30.709
in that essay were recognizable

614
00:19:30.710 --> 00:19:32.539
to me. But it also seemed like you

615
00:19:32.540 --> 00:19:34.609
had learned

616
00:19:34.610 --> 00:19:36.559
a new vocabulary or a new

617
00:19:36.560 --> 00:19:38.479
way of approaching the work because

618
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.399
it was painting rather than some

619
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:42.259
of the other works-- literary

620
00:19:42.260 --> 00:19:43.519
works, historical works that you'd

621
00:19:43.520 --> 00:19:45.199
written about in the past.

622
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:46.549
Can you talk a little bit about your

623
00:19:46.550 --> 00:19:49.039
preparation for writing that essay?

624
00:19:49.040 --> 00:19:50.302
Well, let me tell you what happened.

625
00:19:51.740 --> 00:19:53.269
I was chair of Africana Studies for

626
00:19:53.270 --> 00:19:54.270
six years.

627
00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:57.379
In my final year

628
00:19:57.380 --> 00:19:59.779
as chair of Africana Studies,

629
00:19:59.780 --> 00:20:01.849
I began to

630
00:20:01.850 --> 00:20:03.739
think about this business of

631
00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:04.729
art.

632
00:20:04.730 --> 00:20:06.589
But I was thinking about art

633
00:20:06.590 --> 00:20:08.449
specifically in relationship

634
00:20:08.450 --> 00:20:10.339
to Haiti because I work

635
00:20:10.340 --> 00:20:11.150
a great deal on Haiti.

636
00:20:11.151 --> 00:20:13.039
And you cannot work a great

637
00:20:13.040 --> 00:20:14.509
deal on Haiti without not thinking

638
00:20:14.510 --> 00:20:15.649
about art.

639
00:20:15.650 --> 00:20:16.789
And I was trying to think about the

640
00:20:16.790 --> 00:20:19.129
ways in which art

641
00:20:19.130 --> 00:20:21.529
may actually be a language,

642
00:20:21.530 --> 00:20:23.719
a historical language

643
00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:24.720
for Haiti,

644
00:20:25.790 --> 00:20:27.289
not just the vernacular in the way

645
00:20:27.290 --> 00:20:28.579
some people talk about, but actually

646
00:20:28.580 --> 00:20:29.580
historical language.

647
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:36.829
After being chair,

648
00:20:36.830 --> 00:20:38.480
I spent about a year,

649
00:20:39.560 --> 00:20:41.389
nine months to a year,

650
00:20:41.390 --> 00:20:43.249
doing nothing else but

651
00:20:43.250 --> 00:20:45.229
reading as hard as I could

652
00:20:45.230 --> 00:20:47.389
about art, art history,

653
00:20:47.390 --> 00:20:49.009
Western art history, African art

654
00:20:49.010 --> 00:20:50.449
history, Caribbean art history,

655
00:20:50.450 --> 00:20:52.489
etc., trying to think

656
00:20:52.490 --> 00:20:53.490
about

657
00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:56.540
how does somebody who is

658
00:20:57.800 --> 00:21:00.439
trained as a political theorist

659
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:02.449
who becomes into, what some

660
00:21:02.450 --> 00:21:03.679
people call in the academy, an

661
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:05.180
intellectual historian

662
00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.539
and does literature

663
00:21:08.540 --> 00:21:09.560
and so on

664
00:21:10.790 --> 00:21:11.790
and cultural studies. And

665
00:21:13.490 --> 00:21:15.709
how does one that person

666
00:21:15.710 --> 00:21:18.019
begin to take on

667
00:21:18.020 --> 00:21:20.209
this business of art, art history,

668
00:21:20.210 --> 00:21:22.359
and artistic production?

669
00:21:22.360 --> 00:21:24.139
So I spent quite frankly about nine

670
00:21:24.140 --> 00:21:25.849
months to a year just reading,

671
00:21:25.850 --> 00:21:27.919
thinking, making notes about that.

672
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:29.749
And in the middle of that, I did

673
00:21:29.750 --> 00:21:31.909
a major exhibition,

674
00:21:31.910 --> 00:21:33.259
which is one of the single largest

675
00:21:33.260 --> 00:21:35.029
exhibitions of Haitian art in this

676
00:21:35.030 --> 00:21:37.519
country since 1979.

677
00:21:37.520 --> 00:21:39.115
It was done with both at RISD, Rhode

678
00:21:39.116 --> 00:21:41.059
Island School of Design,

679
00:21:41.060 --> 00:21:42.060
and at Brown. To put

680
00:21:44.900 --> 00:21:45.900
together that

681
00:21:47.120 --> 00:21:49.549
meant that I

682
00:21:49.550 --> 00:21:51.710
traveled all over this country

683
00:21:52.790 --> 00:21:54.349
to where every single Haitian

684
00:21:54.350 --> 00:21:55.519
painting was that I knew

685
00:21:57.650 --> 00:21:58.969
and just spent time talking to

686
00:21:58.970 --> 00:22:00.440
people on the paintings

687
00:22:02.090 --> 00:22:03.919
and spent time with people

688
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:04.920
who understood Haitian

689
00:22:06.770 --> 00:22:07.789
art.

690
00:22:07.790 --> 00:22:09.679
And quickly began to realize,

691
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:11.599
as I was doing that, that

692
00:22:11.600 --> 00:22:13.429
I was bringing something else.

693
00:22:13.430 --> 00:22:15.219
And I was asking a different set of

694
00:22:15.220 --> 00:22:17.069
questions that

695
00:22:17.070 --> 00:22:18.729
the ways in which Haitian art was

696
00:22:18.730 --> 00:22:21.549
being portrayed as primarily

697
00:22:21.550 --> 00:22:23.289
exotic or naive,

698
00:22:24.730 --> 00:22:26.769
or having this

699
00:22:26.770 --> 00:22:29.079
link to voodoo religion

700
00:22:29.080 --> 00:22:30.999
only rather

701
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:32.319
than beginning to see it as one

702
00:22:35.140 --> 00:22:36.519
stream. I was beginning to.

703
00:22:36.520 --> 00:22:37.750
And that its history

704
00:22:38.860 --> 00:22:40.449
had to do with a certain

705
00:22:40.450 --> 00:22:41.579
relationship to

706
00:22:43.120 --> 00:22:45.009
surrealism and André Breton

707
00:22:45.010 --> 00:22:45.999
and so on.

708
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:47.859
I was beginning to have a lot

709
00:22:47.860 --> 00:22:49.929
of trouble with all of that.

710
00:22:49.930 --> 00:22:51.489
And the exhibition which was put

711
00:22:51.490 --> 00:22:54.279
together appeared in 2011,

712
00:22:54.280 --> 00:22:56.559
was called Reframing Haitian Art.

713
00:22:56.560 --> 00:22:58.329
And because I was beginning to think

714
00:22:58.330 --> 00:23:00.189
through just in two years, how

715
00:23:00.190 --> 00:23:01.329
do I reframe this?

716
00:23:02.590 --> 00:23:05.529
The critics' reaction to it was

717
00:23:05.530 --> 00:23:07.659
that, "This is really great, but

718
00:23:07.660 --> 00:23:08.559
we're not quite sure what's

719
00:23:08.560 --> 00:23:10.689
happening here, and it needs more

720
00:23:10.690 --> 00:23:12.729
curatorial thing and so on." In

721
00:23:12.730 --> 00:23:14.409
part because of what I think was

722
00:23:14.410 --> 00:23:16.329
happening was that we

723
00:23:16.330 --> 00:23:19.209
were going against the grain

724
00:23:19.210 --> 00:23:21.098
at that point in time.

725
00:23:21.099 --> 00:23:21.969
They expected the voodoo [crosstalk]

726
00:23:21.970 --> 00:23:23.119
Yes, yes, yes.

727
00:23:24.610 --> 00:23:25.569
That was there.

728
00:23:25.570 --> 00:23:27.219
But what was also there was what I

729
00:23:27.220 --> 00:23:28.220
call everyday.

730
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:31.149
Everyday people getting married,

731
00:23:31.150 --> 00:23:32.559
people eating in a restaurant,

732
00:23:32.560 --> 00:23:34.539
people playing games, children

733
00:23:34.540 --> 00:23:36.969
and mothers and fathers walking.

734
00:23:36.970 --> 00:23:38.589
I mean, Haitian artists were

735
00:23:38.590 --> 00:23:40.359
painting those kind of scenes,

736
00:23:40.360 --> 00:23:42.729
landscapes and so on, weddings

737
00:23:42.730 --> 00:23:44.109
and so on. I mean, I remember going

738
00:23:44.110 --> 00:23:45.110
through

739
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.649
thousands of paintings and thinking,

740
00:23:47.650 --> 00:23:49.479
"My God, everybody gets married

741
00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:51.309
in here." It's always a

742
00:23:51.310 --> 00:23:52.310
wedding sort of thing.

743
00:23:53.530 --> 00:23:55.389
But there

744
00:23:55.390 --> 00:23:58.089
was a-- I think a lot of the critics

745
00:23:58.090 --> 00:23:59.229
said, "Oh, it was great." Some

746
00:23:59.230 --> 00:24:00.459
critics say it was great.

747
00:24:00.460 --> 00:24:01.460
It portrayed

748
00:24:02.350 --> 00:24:04.179
a different way in which we

749
00:24:04.180 --> 00:24:05.410
might be able to think about it.

750
00:24:06.760 --> 00:24:09.609
And then some critic says, "Well,

751
00:24:09.610 --> 00:24:11.243
it's okay, but we're not so sure."

752
00:24:11.244 --> 00:24:12.099
Right?

753
00:24:12.100 --> 00:24:13.479
And so on.

754
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:15.429
But at that point,

755
00:24:15.430 --> 00:24:16.779
I made up my mind

756
00:24:18.250 --> 00:24:20.079
that what needed to happen

757
00:24:21.250 --> 00:24:23.109
in relationship to both the art

758
00:24:23.110 --> 00:24:24.914
of Haiti and of the Caribbean and of

759
00:24:24.915 --> 00:24:26.424
Africa was actually a reframing.

760
00:24:26.425 --> 00:24:27.425
Trying

761
00:24:29.080 --> 00:24:31.389
to think through

762
00:24:31.390 --> 00:24:33.219
a different genealogy of

763
00:24:33.220 --> 00:24:35.829
these artistic

764
00:24:35.830 --> 00:24:36.830
practices.

765
00:24:37.750 --> 00:24:39.485
And so that's what you begin to see.

766
00:24:39.486 --> 00:24:41.409
When I

767
00:24:41.410 --> 00:24:42.520
was [asked?] to do the thing for

768
00:24:42.521 --> 00:24:43.521
Edouard, they

769
00:24:46.780 --> 00:24:48.489
said they wanted a catalog.

770
00:24:48.490 --> 00:24:49.719
And I said, "No, we don't need a

771
00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:51.069
catalog. We need a book." And I

772
00:24:51.070 --> 00:24:53.049
persuaded them we needed a book on

773
00:24:53.050 --> 00:24:54.909
Haitian art. And that's what

774
00:24:54.910 --> 00:24:55.910
we did.

775
00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:58.509
And it was the language that

776
00:24:58.510 --> 00:25:00.819
you speak about is really a language

777
00:25:00.820 --> 00:25:02.339
that operates at this level.

778
00:25:02.340 --> 00:25:04.539
One, it operates

779
00:25:04.540 --> 00:25:05.540
with a sort of

780
00:25:06.760 --> 00:25:08.649
- I'm not a trained art historian -

781
00:25:08.650 --> 00:25:10.029
but it operates with a certain

782
00:25:10.030 --> 00:25:11.769
familiarity with artistic

783
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:14.979
genres and so on.

784
00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:16.659
But more importantly, I think it

785
00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:18.849
operates with a way

786
00:25:18.850 --> 00:25:21.459
in which this is trying to

787
00:25:21.460 --> 00:25:23.949
talk about the interiority

788
00:25:23.950 --> 00:25:25.419
of this particular process.

789
00:25:25.420 --> 00:25:27.279
I'm seeing this whether

790
00:25:27.280 --> 00:25:29.769
it is voodoo paintings

791
00:25:29.770 --> 00:25:31.689
of [inaudible] or

792
00:25:31.690 --> 00:25:33.249
what is the work of [inaudible],

793
00:25:33.250 --> 00:25:34.122
what is the work of Hector

794
00:25:34.123 --> 00:25:35.274
Hyppolite, or Andre Pierre or

795
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:38.960
of Edouard Duval Carrie himself or

796
00:25:41.290 --> 00:25:42.819
Myrlande Constant. Trying to think about

797
00:25:42.820 --> 00:25:44.949
what do these painters

798
00:25:44.950 --> 00:25:47.589
and these artists have to say to us

799
00:25:47.590 --> 00:25:49.583
about Haiti that we are not hearing.

800
00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:52.269
And what do they have to say about

801
00:25:52.270 --> 00:25:54.189
art in general?

802
00:25:54.190 --> 00:25:56.079
What that then led

803
00:25:56.080 --> 00:25:58.149
to was a - what

804
00:25:58.150 --> 00:25:59.679
you may not have seen - an essay

805
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:00.699
which was published in

806
00:26:02.650 --> 00:26:04.809
Paris in by the

807
00:26:04.810 --> 00:26:05.859
Museum Grand Palais

808
00:26:07.390 --> 00:26:08.808
on Haitian Art, which I wrote.

809
00:26:08.809 --> 00:26:10.719
In which I essentially

810
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:12.849
argued that this idea

811
00:26:12.850 --> 00:26:15.369
of modernism and Haitian art and

812
00:26:15.370 --> 00:26:17.709
surrealism was really a problematic

813
00:26:17.710 --> 00:26:19.479
one. And that we needed to

814
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:21.549
disaggregate all of that and begin

815
00:26:21.550 --> 00:26:23.739
to think of a different genealogy.

816
00:26:23.740 --> 00:26:25.719
And also, quite frankly, I began

817
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:27.669
to think through Africa, African

818
00:26:27.670 --> 00:26:29.139
art and spent some time in South

819
00:26:29.140 --> 00:26:31.149
Africa doing

820
00:26:31.150 --> 00:26:33.029
similar work. So my work on art

821
00:26:35.320 --> 00:26:37.479
begins with a query,

822
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:38.949
and I'm trying to think through

823
00:26:38.950 --> 00:26:39.950
Haitian history.

824
00:26:41.050 --> 00:26:43.089
But I was moved, I think, much

825
00:26:43.090 --> 00:26:43.869
further.

826
00:26:43.870 --> 00:26:44.739
Where it go?

827
00:26:44.740 --> 00:26:46.149
I have no idea.

828
00:26:46.150 --> 00:26:48.099
What I would say to you is that,

829
00:26:48.100 --> 00:26:49.389
to me, it is one of the most

830
00:26:49.390 --> 00:26:51.369
exciting things that I'm doing.

831
00:26:51.370 --> 00:26:52.629
And has your work with painting and

832
00:26:52.630 --> 00:26:54.069
other visual arts informed your

833
00:26:54.070 --> 00:26:55.569
thinking about literary texts and

834
00:26:55.570 --> 00:26:57.309
other kind of texts of that sort?

835
00:26:57.310 --> 00:26:58.659
It has informed my thinking of

836
00:26:58.660 --> 00:26:59.919
literatures, informed my thinking

837
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:01.479
about history. This informed my

838
00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:02.829
thinking about politics.

839
00:27:02.830 --> 00:27:04.659
And what I need to do

840
00:27:04.660 --> 00:27:06.519
is to actually step back and try to

841
00:27:06.520 --> 00:27:08.539
think through. And I feel

842
00:27:08.540 --> 00:27:10.419
the need intellectually about how

843
00:27:10.420 --> 00:27:12.909
does one integrate all of this

844
00:27:12.910 --> 00:27:14.079
into something.

845
00:27:14.080 --> 00:27:15.579
Is there something that is happening

846
00:27:15.580 --> 00:27:18.279
here that I need to think about?

847
00:27:18.280 --> 00:27:19.389
So I want to talk about two other

848
00:27:19.390 --> 00:27:20.589
figures that have been important for

849
00:27:20.590 --> 00:27:22.269
you, and that is George Lamming and

850
00:27:22.270 --> 00:27:23.270
Sylvia Wynter.

851
00:27:23.860 --> 00:27:25.869
With both of them, you describe them

852
00:27:25.870 --> 00:27:27.489
as anti-colonial writers.

853
00:27:27.490 --> 00:27:28.929
And you use that language of

854
00:27:28.930 --> 00:27:30.849
anti-colonial instead

855
00:27:30.850 --> 00:27:33.429
of calling them nationalist writers.

856
00:27:33.430 --> 00:27:35.139
I wonder if you can talk about that

857
00:27:35.140 --> 00:27:37.029
language and, in particular, whether

858
00:27:37.030 --> 00:27:38.949
that connects to this idea that

859
00:27:38.950 --> 00:27:40.599
in both of them, there's the

860
00:27:40.600 --> 00:27:42.849
potential for a new beginning

861
00:27:42.850 --> 00:27:44.409
or in creating something new.

862
00:27:44.410 --> 00:27:46.209
Is that language that you use to

863
00:27:46.210 --> 00:27:48.159
describe them connected

864
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:50.259
to that potential in their work?

865
00:27:50.260 --> 00:27:51.699
You're very kind, but I think you

866
00:27:51.700 --> 00:27:53.440
also have an insight

867
00:27:54.910 --> 00:27:56.829
in that what I am trying to

868
00:27:56.830 --> 00:27:58.989
do is the following.

869
00:27:58.990 --> 00:28:01.899
I am saying that both these figures

870
00:28:01.900 --> 00:28:03.849
in their separate ways

871
00:28:03.850 --> 00:28:06.039
have attempted to

872
00:28:06.040 --> 00:28:07.839
think through a set of human

873
00:28:07.840 --> 00:28:10.089
experiences of the colonized

874
00:28:10.090 --> 00:28:11.469
coming from the perspective of the

875
00:28:11.470 --> 00:28:12.309
Caribbean. And they're both

876
00:28:12.310 --> 00:28:14.049
Caribbean figures.

877
00:28:14.050 --> 00:28:15.790
And that in thinking through those

878
00:28:17.230 --> 00:28:19.359
human experiences,

879
00:28:19.360 --> 00:28:21.099
that the ways in which we in the

880
00:28:21.100 --> 00:28:23.169
Academy have categorized

881
00:28:23.170 --> 00:28:25.119
them and classify them as

882
00:28:25.120 --> 00:28:25.954
nationalist writers.

883
00:28:25.955 --> 00:28:26.955
Any history

884
00:28:28.630 --> 00:28:31.209
of Caribbean literature will say

885
00:28:31.210 --> 00:28:32.649
that George Lamming was part of the

886
00:28:32.650 --> 00:28:33.969
group that rewrote the Caribbean

887
00:28:33.970 --> 00:28:35.589
nation, and so on and so forth.

888
00:28:39.610 --> 00:28:41.079
And Sylvia, for her plays and for

889
00:28:41.080 --> 00:28:42.080
her novel The Hills of Hebron.

890
00:28:43.870 --> 00:28:45.699
What I'm arguing

891
00:28:45.700 --> 00:28:47.289
is that you have to make a

892
00:28:47.290 --> 00:28:49.299
distinction between

893
00:28:49.300 --> 00:28:51.999
a certain kind of nationalism.

894
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.619
And nationalism in which what you

895
00:28:53.620 --> 00:28:55.059
are trying to do is the imagining

896
00:28:55.060 --> 00:28:56.319
the nation.

897
00:28:56.320 --> 00:28:58.029
But the nation that you are

898
00:28:58.030 --> 00:28:59.889
imagining is a mimicry of one,

899
00:28:59.890 --> 00:29:00.789
not is.

900
00:29:00.790 --> 00:29:02.469
It is one that is very similar to

901
00:29:02.470 --> 00:29:04.389
the colonial nation in many

902
00:29:04.390 --> 00:29:06.399
ways. It has an elite.

903
00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:07.400
That elite is replaced

904
00:29:08.590 --> 00:29:10.419
by native class

905
00:29:10.420 --> 00:29:12.339
and that it does

906
00:29:12.340 --> 00:29:14.169
not reorganize the social

907
00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:15.369
relations.

908
00:29:15.370 --> 00:29:17.139
It is not decolonial in trying to

909
00:29:17.140 --> 00:29:18.140
think through

910
00:29:19.150 --> 00:29:20.559
a certain kind of historical

911
00:29:20.560 --> 00:29:22.569
understanding of the self,

912
00:29:22.570 --> 00:29:24.609
of the ordinary person.

913
00:29:24.610 --> 00:29:26.649
It just continues almost business

914
00:29:26.650 --> 00:29:27.970
as usual, although

915
00:29:29.140 --> 00:29:30.819
the personnel may change at the top

916
00:29:30.820 --> 00:29:32.709
and although you may also have

917
00:29:32.710 --> 00:29:34.599
a growth in the middle of a native

918
00:29:34.600 --> 00:29:35.600
middle class. My

919
00:29:37.120 --> 00:29:38.920
argument is that the anti-colonial,

920
00:29:40.270 --> 00:29:42.249
on the other hand, does not.

921
00:29:42.250 --> 00:29:43.300
While it may have

922
00:29:44.590 --> 00:29:46.629
some kind of nationalist current

923
00:29:46.630 --> 00:29:48.939
in it, that the anti-colonial

924
00:29:48.940 --> 00:29:50.919
logics and current is really

925
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:52.475
towards a form of decolonization.

926
00:29:56.260 --> 00:29:58.179
Decolonization is not a nationalist

927
00:29:58.180 --> 00:29:59.019
project.

928
00:29:59.020 --> 00:30:00.020
Decolonization

929
00:30:01.750 --> 00:30:03.639
is, in my view, a radical,

930
00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:05.109
transformative project of the

931
00:30:05.110 --> 00:30:06.110
societies that are [inaudible]

932
00:30:08.140 --> 00:30:10.239
that decolonization is a radical

933
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:11.469
project.

934
00:30:11.470 --> 00:30:12.369
It is not a nice project.

935
00:30:12.370 --> 00:30:13.749
It is not an easy project, right?

936
00:30:15.700 --> 00:30:17.121
And it is a very tumultuous project

937
00:30:17.122 --> 00:30:19.119
to paraphrase

938
00:30:19.120 --> 00:30:20.229
Fanon.

939
00:30:20.230 --> 00:30:21.909
And so, I think both those writers

940
00:30:21.910 --> 00:30:24.039
are anti-colonial writers because

941
00:30:24.040 --> 00:30:25.899
the logic of their work is not

942
00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:27.999
about the creation of a nation.

943
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:29.919
The logic of their work is

944
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:32.259
about the creation of something new

945
00:30:32.260 --> 00:30:33.999
and the possibilities of something

946
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.949
new, and

947
00:30:35.950 --> 00:30:37.959
also the possibilities of something

948
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:40.239
new based upon energies,

949
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:41.529
creative energies of the ordinary

950
00:30:41.530 --> 00:30:43.419
people, of

951
00:30:43.420 --> 00:30:45.729
whatever country or whatever state

952
00:30:45.730 --> 00:30:46.989
that they are thinking about-- not

953
00:30:46.990 --> 00:30:48.999
state, but whatever country

954
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:51.699
that they live in.

955
00:30:51.700 --> 00:30:53.352
And for Lamming in particular, what

956
00:30:56.030 --> 00:30:58.429
is interesting to me

957
00:30:58.430 --> 00:31:00.589
is the way in which

958
00:31:00.590 --> 00:31:01.590
that new

959
00:31:03.310 --> 00:31:05.199
beginnings, new

960
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:07.869
possibilities, a circle

961
00:31:07.870 --> 00:31:08.870
around freedom

962
00:31:10.120 --> 00:31:11.803
and also circles around a language.

963
00:31:11.804 --> 00:31:13.959
The creation

964
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:15.879
of a certain kind of language

965
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:17.619
that would allow us to begin to

966
00:31:17.620 --> 00:31:20.079
explain ourselves to ourselves

967
00:31:20.080 --> 00:31:21.279
and, therefore, to a certain kind of

968
00:31:21.280 --> 00:31:22.359
sovereignty-- what he calls the

969
00:31:22.360 --> 00:31:24.519
sovereignty of the imagination.

970
00:31:24.520 --> 00:31:26.169
So when in Season of Adventure,

971
00:31:26.170 --> 00:31:28.059
towards the end, he

972
00:31:28.060 --> 00:31:29.919
says, "The First Republic

973
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:31.809
failed, the second Republic

974
00:31:31.810 --> 00:31:33.909
failed. And so will all other

975
00:31:33.910 --> 00:31:35.859
republics fail unless the language

976
00:31:35.860 --> 00:31:37.209
is right.

977
00:31:37.210 --> 00:31:38.739
And it has got to be the language of

978
00:31:38.740 --> 00:31:40.779
the drum." He is saying

979
00:31:40.780 --> 00:31:42.039
a whole set of things there, in my

980
00:31:42.040 --> 00:31:43.542
view, about not nationalism but

981
00:31:44.770 --> 00:31:46.809
about a decolonization project

982
00:31:46.810 --> 00:31:47.919
that has to happen.

983
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:49.539
To me, it is very interesting to

984
00:31:49.540 --> 00:31:51.849
think about George Lamming's work

985
00:31:51.850 --> 00:31:53.619
in that after he wrote Natives of My

986
00:31:53.620 --> 00:31:54.620
Person,

987
00:31:56.860 --> 00:31:58.569
that is ten years after the

988
00:31:58.570 --> 00:31:59.739
nationalist projects in the

989
00:31:59.740 --> 00:32:01.629
Caribbean, he doesn't write

990
00:32:01.630 --> 00:32:02.630
one more novel.

991
00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:05.139
And it is something that I thought

992
00:32:05.140 --> 00:32:05.979
about.

993
00:32:05.980 --> 00:32:07.749
And when you talk to him, what the

994
00:32:07.750 --> 00:32:09.105
sense you get is what?

995
00:32:10.780 --> 00:32:12.699
Is that he begins with In the Castle

996
00:32:12.700 --> 00:32:14.619
of My Skin, which is

997
00:32:14.620 --> 00:32:16.299
a growing-up novel of a boy in

998
00:32:16.300 --> 00:32:18.129
Barbados, migration,

999
00:32:18.130 --> 00:32:19.239
etc.

1000
00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:21.219
Then goes on to

1001
00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:23.409
The Emigrants and Of Age

1002
00:32:23.410 --> 00:32:25.539
and Innocence and so on and

1003
00:32:25.540 --> 00:32:27.429
so forth, and then ends

1004
00:32:27.430 --> 00:32:29.349
up with Natives of My Person.

1005
00:32:29.350 --> 00:32:31.239
That is the entire history

1006
00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:32.240
of the Caribbean. And

1007
00:32:33.260 --> 00:32:34.749
in Natives of my Person, he goes

1008
00:32:34.750 --> 00:32:35.769
back to the very beginning.

1009
00:32:35.770 --> 00:32:38.469
It's about a voyage of a slave ship.

1010
00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:40.089
And he's saying, I think as a

1011
00:32:40.090 --> 00:32:41.349
novelist, I don't know what else to

1012
00:32:41.350 --> 00:32:42.579
say.

1013
00:32:42.580 --> 00:32:43.959
I have written.

1014
00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:45.819
This, to me, is each of

1015
00:32:45.820 --> 00:32:47.799
these novels are like chapters

1016
00:32:47.800 --> 00:32:49.299
of Caribbean history.

1017
00:32:49.300 --> 00:32:50.739
Now we have this nationalist

1018
00:32:50.740 --> 00:32:51.740
movement

1019
00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:54.609
I don't see how we're going to come

1020
00:32:54.610 --> 00:32:56.469
out of it unless we go do

1021
00:32:56.470 --> 00:32:57.549
something else.

1022
00:32:57.550 --> 00:32:59.379
Which is why at that stage, in

1023
00:32:59.380 --> 00:33:01.239
my view, he then becomes a public

1024
00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:03.279
intellectual and a critic and begins

1025
00:33:03.280 --> 00:33:05.259
to write essays and speaks

1026
00:33:05.260 --> 00:33:06.447
all over the place and so on.

1027
00:33:06.448 --> 00:33:08.289
And becomes this public

1028
00:33:08.290 --> 00:33:09.338
intellectual that intervenes our

1029
00:33:10.750 --> 00:33:12.639
attempts to intervene in the public

1030
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:14.379
life of the Caribbean around

1031
00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:16.359
questions of decolonization.

1032
00:33:16.360 --> 00:33:17.949
It's a new way to introduce a

1033
00:33:17.950 --> 00:33:18.599
language of decolonization?

1034
00:33:18.600 --> 00:33:19.600
Absolutely.

1035
00:33:20.470 --> 00:33:21.789
And do you feel that your work as an

1036
00:33:21.790 --> 00:33:23.139
intellectual in the university is

1037
00:33:23.140 --> 00:33:24.579
similar? That is, that you're trying

1038
00:33:24.580 --> 00:33:26.499
to introduce a kind of language

1039
00:33:26.500 --> 00:33:28.299
that will allow people and students

1040
00:33:28.300 --> 00:33:30.729
to see the world in a new way.

1041
00:33:30.730 --> 00:33:32.649
Yes, I try to think about questions

1042
00:33:32.650 --> 00:33:33.489
of language.

1043
00:33:33.490 --> 00:33:34.929
I do. I do.

1044
00:33:34.930 --> 00:33:35.930
And I mean, I think-- and I

1045
00:33:38.110 --> 00:33:39.189
wrestle with that.

1046
00:33:39.190 --> 00:33:40.651
I wrestle with that because

1047
00:33:44.740 --> 00:33:46.509
I think that my book, Empire of

1048
00:33:46.510 --> 00:33:47.510
Liberty, a

1049
00:33:50.110 --> 00:33:52.389
lot of academics and theoreticians

1050
00:33:52.390 --> 00:33:54.249
like it because it is

1051
00:33:54.250 --> 00:33:56.109
very academic

1052
00:33:56.110 --> 00:33:57.549
in language.

1053
00:33:57.550 --> 00:33:59.169
But I actually think that the book

1054
00:33:59.170 --> 00:34:01.299
that, for me, is really

1055
00:34:01.300 --> 00:34:02.799
important is Black Heretics, Black

1056
00:34:02.800 --> 00:34:04.486
Prophets and the

1057
00:34:04.487 --> 00:34:05.487
Edouard Duval Carrié book. That

1058
00:34:07.900 --> 00:34:08.900
does not have that

1059
00:34:09.940 --> 00:34:11.649
academic language that attempts to

1060
00:34:11.650 --> 00:34:13.479
go beyond it, to write in

1061
00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:15.549
a way that anybody

1062
00:34:15.550 --> 00:34:17.499
who has any education can just

1063
00:34:17.500 --> 00:34:19.299
pick it up and say, "Oh, okay, I

1064
00:34:19.300 --> 00:34:20.300
think I get this."

1065
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:23.649
Right. Well, one of the memorable moments

1066
00:34:23.650 --> 00:34:25.539
in Empire of Liberty for me is

1067
00:34:25.540 --> 00:34:27.189
in the introduction, when you talk

1068
00:34:27.190 --> 00:34:28.190
about your grandmother. And

1069
00:34:29.290 --> 00:34:31.149
you've written about her in a

1070
00:34:31.150 --> 00:34:32.799
number of places throughout your

1071
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.899
career, and she's someone who's had

1072
00:34:34.900 --> 00:34:36.459
a large amount of influence on you

1073
00:34:36.460 --> 00:34:38.229
as a writer and as a person.

1074
00:34:38.230 --> 00:34:39.339
You write, for example, that she

1075
00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:41.169
taught you the true value

1076
00:34:41.170 --> 00:34:42.189
of freedom.

1077
00:34:42.190 --> 00:34:44.229
You also write that your experience

1078
00:34:44.230 --> 00:34:45.579
with her taught you, more than

1079
00:34:45.580 --> 00:34:47.769
anything else, the inability

1080
00:34:47.770 --> 00:34:50.169
of political categories to capture

1081
00:34:50.170 --> 00:34:52.089
the full experience of an

1082
00:34:52.090 --> 00:34:53.619
individual life.

1083
00:34:53.620 --> 00:34:55.448
Can you say a little bit about the

1084
00:34:55.449 --> 00:34:57.279
influence that she's had on you as

1085
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:59.379
a writer and as a person?

1086
00:34:59.380 --> 00:35:00.379
Yeah.

1087
00:35:00.380 --> 00:35:01.209
I mean, yeah.

1088
00:35:01.210 --> 00:35:03.129
I think that the way

1089
00:35:03.130 --> 00:35:04.959
I like to put it, quite frankly,

1090
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:06.789
is that I think about

1091
00:35:06.790 --> 00:35:08.679
it-- is that if I

1092
00:35:08.680 --> 00:35:09.703
did not have asthma--

1093
00:35:11.410 --> 00:35:13.959
I was born in an upper-middle-class

1094
00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:14.960
family.

1095
00:35:15.620 --> 00:35:17.459
Jamaica, that is,

1096
00:35:17.460 --> 00:35:19.359
was where color and race

1097
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:20.979
are intertwined.

1098
00:35:20.980 --> 00:35:22.779
And so, as a light-skinned person in

1099
00:35:22.780 --> 00:35:23.802
an upper-middle-class family, the

1100
00:35:25.420 --> 00:35:28.089
path for what I should be

1101
00:35:28.090 --> 00:35:29.889
to join the elite was very, very

1102
00:35:29.890 --> 00:35:31.749
clear. And I went to

1103
00:35:31.750 --> 00:35:33.369
elite prep schools and elite

1104
00:35:33.370 --> 00:35:34.809
secondary schools.

1105
00:35:34.810 --> 00:35:35.810
But I had asthma

1106
00:35:37.270 --> 00:35:38.199
when I was a kid.

1107
00:35:38.200 --> 00:35:39.200
And

1108
00:35:40.180 --> 00:35:42.399
the doctor advised my

1109
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:44.229
parents that one

1110
00:35:44.230 --> 00:35:46.359
way to deal with this was actually

1111
00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:49.059
to carry me to the rural countryside

1112
00:35:49.060 --> 00:35:50.136
where the air was cleaner and where

1113
00:35:50.137 --> 00:35:51.137
I would-- they

1114
00:35:53.350 --> 00:35:54.699
thought living there for a while

1115
00:35:54.700 --> 00:35:56.559
would, not necessarily cure,

1116
00:35:56.560 --> 00:35:59.049
it would help to mitigate

1117
00:35:59.050 --> 00:36:00.129
before I had to come back to

1118
00:36:00.130 --> 00:36:01.599
Kingston.

1119
00:36:01.600 --> 00:36:02.600
That saved me

1120
00:36:03.610 --> 00:36:05.829
in many, many ways

1121
00:36:05.830 --> 00:36:07.779
because not only that I got to spend

1122
00:36:07.780 --> 00:36:08.810
time, but the path

1123
00:36:10.630 --> 00:36:12.579
was interrupted.

1124
00:36:12.580 --> 00:36:14.403
The path of joy, of

1125
00:36:14.404 --> 00:36:16.299
a bright

1126
00:36:16.300 --> 00:36:18.159
person going to

1127
00:36:18.160 --> 00:36:19.830
prep school, then elite

1128
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:23.289
high schools, then universities,

1129
00:36:23.290 --> 00:36:24.279
then joining the elite.

1130
00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:25.939
That was interrupted.

1131
00:36:25.940 --> 00:36:27.219
That was interrupted because I went

1132
00:36:27.220 --> 00:36:29.169
to live with her. And she

1133
00:36:29.170 --> 00:36:31.209
was a woman,

1134
00:36:31.210 --> 00:36:33.099
two generations also from

1135
00:36:33.100 --> 00:36:34.100
slavery.

1136
00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:35.949
Her grandfather had died,

1137
00:36:37.120 --> 00:36:38.979
and she was living alone on

1138
00:36:38.980 --> 00:36:40.899
a piece of land that he

1139
00:36:40.900 --> 00:36:41.900
had left her.

1140
00:36:43.540 --> 00:36:46.179
And she taught me a great deal

1141
00:36:46.180 --> 00:36:47.349
about living there.

1142
00:36:47.350 --> 00:36:48.925
It was a very simple kind of well--

1143
00:36:48.926 --> 00:36:51.039
she was my mother's

1144
00:36:51.040 --> 00:36:52.809
mother. She was very simple

1145
00:36:52.810 --> 00:36:53.810
lifestyle. Up

1146
00:36:55.900 --> 00:36:57.429
early in the morning, going on the

1147
00:36:57.430 --> 00:36:59.289
farm, doing stuff and so on, taking

1148
00:36:59.290 --> 00:37:00.470
me with her, etc., etc.

1149
00:37:01.750 --> 00:37:02.559
But having that sort of

1150
00:37:02.560 --> 00:37:04.419
conversations all the time,

1151
00:37:04.420 --> 00:37:06.039
partly because she was living on our

1152
00:37:06.040 --> 00:37:08.139
own, but to have somebody

1153
00:37:08.140 --> 00:37:10.149
in the house was, I think, a boon

1154
00:37:10.150 --> 00:37:11.049
for her.

1155
00:37:11.050 --> 00:37:12.468
So I got everything, right?

1156
00:37:13.900 --> 00:37:16.629
I never forgot it. Discussions about

1157
00:37:16.630 --> 00:37:18.292
Prince Philip and Queen Elizabeth.

1158
00:37:18.293 --> 00:37:20.619
She had that picture there.

1159
00:37:20.620 --> 00:37:22.269
But she also had a picture of J.F.

1160
00:37:22.270 --> 00:37:24.189
Kennedy in

1161
00:37:24.190 --> 00:37:25.599
our living room and of Martin Luther

1162
00:37:25.600 --> 00:37:27.360
King. So I'm just saying, I got

1163
00:37:30.580 --> 00:37:31.509
all of that because she would

1164
00:37:31.510 --> 00:37:33.400
explain all those pictures to me.

1165
00:37:35.080 --> 00:37:36.080
And then she, as

1166
00:37:37.630 --> 00:37:39.639
all grandmothers would have,

1167
00:37:39.640 --> 00:37:41.469
I watched her do, would have

1168
00:37:41.470 --> 00:37:43.179
these little homilies that she would

1169
00:37:43.180 --> 00:37:44.180
say, "respect

1170
00:37:45.130 --> 00:37:46.449
everybody. It don't matter who they

1171
00:37:46.450 --> 00:37:47.845
are," and so on.

1172
00:37:47.846 --> 00:37:49.989
And then

1173
00:37:49.990 --> 00:37:51.609
somehow she got into this freedom

1174
00:37:51.610 --> 00:37:52.610
thing, which I'm not quite

1175
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:55.060
sure where it came from.

1176
00:37:56.830 --> 00:37:58.449
And so I learned from her.

1177
00:37:58.450 --> 00:38:00.069
But I learned about freedom.

1178
00:38:00.070 --> 00:38:01.629
I learned about respect.

1179
00:38:01.630 --> 00:38:03.520
So by time I was better

1180
00:38:04.540 --> 00:38:06.849
and went back to the

1181
00:38:06.850 --> 00:38:08.199
capital city to high school,

1182
00:38:09.550 --> 00:38:11.709
I had a different outlook

1183
00:38:12.790 --> 00:38:14.709
than many other people my age.

1184
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:17.360
I mean, and that's fascinating.

1185
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:20.229
Well, I want to close just by asking

1186
00:38:20.230 --> 00:38:21.849
one or two questions directly about

1187
00:38:21.850 --> 00:38:23.319
the humanities.

1188
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:25.209
And in 2013, you gave

1189
00:38:25.210 --> 00:38:27.039
a talk at Brown titled The

1190
00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:28.809
Humanities and Social Sciences,

1191
00:38:28.810 --> 00:38:30.759
Knowledge Change, and the Human

1192
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:31.809
Today.

1193
00:38:31.810 --> 00:38:33.879
And in that talk, you argue

1194
00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:35.859
that the value of the humanities was

1195
00:38:35.860 --> 00:38:37.689
that humanities scholarship

1196
00:38:37.690 --> 00:38:39.099
could clarify the fact that

1197
00:38:39.100 --> 00:38:40.479
problems, social problems, and

1198
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:41.799
political problems that we see all

1199
00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:43.779
around us, are results

1200
00:38:43.780 --> 00:38:45.419
of human action and human decisions.

1201
00:38:45.420 --> 00:38:47.499
And thus,

1202
00:38:47.500 --> 00:38:49.599
that different actions and decisions

1203
00:38:49.600 --> 00:38:51.819
could bring us to different points.

1204
00:38:51.820 --> 00:38:53.769
Is this one of the things that you

1205
00:38:53.770 --> 00:38:54.879
would suggest or that you would

1206
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:56.199
contribute to the kind of

1207
00:38:56.200 --> 00:38:58.599
inescapable ongoing conversation

1208
00:38:58.600 --> 00:39:00.219
about the value of the humanities?

1209
00:39:00.220 --> 00:39:01.689
I think that one of the things that

1210
00:39:01.690 --> 00:39:03.179
we are in danger of too-- we're in

1211
00:39:03.180 --> 00:39:05.079
danger of two

1212
00:39:05.080 --> 00:39:06.339
things.

1213
00:39:06.340 --> 00:39:08.199
One is that we're in danger

1214
00:39:08.200 --> 00:39:09.200
of

1215
00:39:10.180 --> 00:39:12.399
thinking that the actions

1216
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.349
that have created the whole world

1217
00:39:14.350 --> 00:39:15.989
are outside of our

1218
00:39:17.080 --> 00:39:19.539
sphere of influence

1219
00:39:19.540 --> 00:39:21.429
and activity and are almost

1220
00:39:21.430 --> 00:39:23.259
naturalized. That they

1221
00:39:23.260 --> 00:39:24.789
somehow just seem to happen and

1222
00:39:24.790 --> 00:39:26.619
occur, and we are just part of

1223
00:39:26.620 --> 00:39:27.693
it either buffeted or are just in

1224
00:39:30.670 --> 00:39:31.479
it.

1225
00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:33.339
And secondly, that there's

1226
00:39:33.340 --> 00:39:35.289
a way in which-- The Economist

1227
00:39:35.290 --> 00:39:37.329
magazine about a month

1228
00:39:37.330 --> 00:39:38.739
ago has on

1229
00:39:39.940 --> 00:39:42.549
its cover, a

1230
00:39:42.550 --> 00:39:44.229
story that's called Editing

1231
00:39:44.230 --> 00:39:46.359
Humanity, in which

1232
00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:47.529
what they're talking about is the

1233
00:39:47.530 --> 00:39:48.960
new genetics type of program that

1234
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:52.359
can give you a new, more intelligent

1235
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:54.309
baby, stop balding,

1236
00:39:54.310 --> 00:39:55.549
etc., etc., etc.

1237
00:39:57.190 --> 00:39:58.239
Therefore, it seems to me that we

1238
00:39:58.240 --> 00:40:00.609
have two sets of dangers.

1239
00:40:00.610 --> 00:40:02.649
We have one danger where we

1240
00:40:02.650 --> 00:40:04.200
think that

1241
00:40:05.470 --> 00:40:07.299
everything is outside of us and

1242
00:40:07.300 --> 00:40:08.300
is naturalized.

1243
00:40:08.890 --> 00:40:10.689
And we have another danger where

1244
00:40:10.690 --> 00:40:12.849
some forms of scientific

1245
00:40:12.850 --> 00:40:15.069
intervention is attempting

1246
00:40:15.070 --> 00:40:16.989
to recreate the human

1247
00:40:16.990 --> 00:40:17.990
genetically

1248
00:40:18.910 --> 00:40:21.549
without any understanding

1249
00:40:21.550 --> 00:40:23.409
about the questions of moral

1250
00:40:23.410 --> 00:40:25.879
ethics or the questions of

1251
00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:28.959
relationship of culture to biology.

1252
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:31.029
What I wanted to argue

1253
00:40:31.030 --> 00:40:32.889
in that talk is that given

1254
00:40:32.890 --> 00:40:35.529
these two currents,

1255
00:40:35.530 --> 00:40:36.969
it is important for us to think

1256
00:40:36.970 --> 00:40:38.949
about the humanities

1257
00:40:38.950 --> 00:40:40.869
as a way in which we can

1258
00:40:40.870 --> 00:40:42.669
understand the world as something

1259
00:40:42.670 --> 00:40:44.109
that we do.

1260
00:40:44.110 --> 00:40:45.110
That is we make,

1261
00:40:46.450 --> 00:40:48.489
whether for good or bad, but

1262
00:40:48.490 --> 00:40:49.490
that we make it.

1263
00:40:50.380 --> 00:40:52.299
And that even if the scientist

1264
00:40:52.300 --> 00:40:54.159
is doing stuff, it

1265
00:40:54.160 --> 00:40:55.989
is, in fact, human action that is

1266
00:40:55.990 --> 00:40:57.219
doing this.

1267
00:40:57.220 --> 00:40:58.959
It is not something that is outside

1268
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:00.791
of us. And that, therefore,

1269
00:41:00.792 --> 00:41:03.059
if we begin to understand

1270
00:41:03.060 --> 00:41:05.189
that the human world, even

1271
00:41:05.190 --> 00:41:06.779
the genetics that is-- if the

1272
00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:08.369
genetics is successful, then you

1273
00:41:08.370 --> 00:41:10.042
have the creation of these babies

1274
00:41:10.043 --> 00:41:11.043
and so. That

1275
00:41:12.270 --> 00:41:13.270
what you are--

1276
00:41:14.670 --> 00:41:16.499
what we have is that we have a human

1277
00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:18.569
world. And that human

1278
00:41:18.570 --> 00:41:20.909
world is our own creation.

1279
00:41:20.910 --> 00:41:22.679
And because it is our own creation,

1280
00:41:22.680 --> 00:41:24.899
in my view, we can either

1281
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:26.609
push it in one direction, or we can

1282
00:41:26.610 --> 00:41:27.929
put it in another direction.

1283
00:41:29.270 --> 00:41:31.379
There is, of course, a third element

1284
00:41:31.380 --> 00:41:33.809
to this and that is

1285
00:41:33.810 --> 00:41:35.999
questions of ecology.

1286
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.039
And that is also, in my view,

1287
00:41:38.040 --> 00:41:40.019
is about us and our work and

1288
00:41:40.020 --> 00:41:41.999
the work we have done on ecology

1289
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:43.829
or the devastation of the work that

1290
00:41:43.830 --> 00:41:45.839
we have done on ecology.

1291
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:47.219
And again, that to me is human

1292
00:41:47.220 --> 00:41:48.599
action. So, in other words, the

1293
00:41:48.600 --> 00:41:51.149
point I'm making is both ecological

1294
00:41:51.150 --> 00:41:53.069
as well as scientific as

1295
00:41:53.070 --> 00:41:54.070
well as

1296
00:41:54.990 --> 00:41:56.429
the so-called political and social

1297
00:41:56.430 --> 00:41:58.289
world that we have created all,

1298
00:41:58.290 --> 00:41:59.879
quite frankly, come out of our own

1299
00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:01.859
work as human beings.

1300
00:42:01.860 --> 00:42:03.959
And that, to me, is

1301
00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:05.879
really important.

1302
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:07.529
And any humanities scholar has to

1303
00:42:07.530 --> 00:42:08.790
begin to think like that.

1304
00:42:09.930 --> 00:42:11.039
So, at the end of the same talk, you

1305
00:42:11.040 --> 00:42:12.959
respond to Gramsci's claim that he's

1306
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:14.279
a pessimist because of his

1307
00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:16.169
intelligence but an optimist

1308
00:42:16.170 --> 00:42:17.639
because of his will.

1309
00:42:17.640 --> 00:42:20.189
And you respond to Gramsci's

1310
00:42:20.190 --> 00:42:21.239
point by saying that you want

1311
00:42:21.240 --> 00:42:22.589
optimism on both sides.

1312
00:42:22.590 --> 00:42:24.059
That is optimism of the intellect

1313
00:42:24.060 --> 00:42:25.829
and an optimism of the will.

1314
00:42:25.830 --> 00:42:27.419
I wonder if you can just close by

1315
00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:28.679
saying a little bit about the

1316
00:42:28.680 --> 00:42:30.659
sources of that optimism and

1317
00:42:30.660 --> 00:42:31.739
talk a little bit about where that

1318
00:42:31.740 --> 00:42:32.981
optimism comes from for you.

1319
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.119
It comes from a tradition of

1320
00:42:39.120 --> 00:42:40.815
Black radical thinkers - Caribbean,

1321
00:42:42.240 --> 00:42:43.859
Africa, the United States -

1322
00:42:44.970 --> 00:42:46.589
who could not afford to be

1323
00:42:46.590 --> 00:42:47.590
pessimists.

1324
00:42:50.010 --> 00:42:51.368
If there were pessimists that felt

1325
00:42:51.369 --> 00:42:53.199
that we couldn't do anything,

1326
00:42:53.200 --> 00:42:54.119
then we all would still be on the

1327
00:42:54.120 --> 00:42:55.120
plantation.

1328
00:42:56.040 --> 00:42:57.088
We're not on the plantation.

1329
00:42:57.089 --> 00:42:59.459
Antiracism, I mean, sorry,

1330
00:42:59.460 --> 00:43:01.229
anti-black racism is still the name

1331
00:43:01.230 --> 00:43:02.249
of the game.

1332
00:43:02.250 --> 00:43:03.689
We just have to look at Black Lives

1333
00:43:03.690 --> 00:43:05.039
Matter in Ferguson and so on.

1334
00:43:07.200 --> 00:43:09.179
But there is a way in

1335
00:43:09.180 --> 00:43:12.359
which the optimism

1336
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:14.789
and the ideas

1337
00:43:14.790 --> 00:43:16.619
of James, of Du Bois,

1338
00:43:16.620 --> 00:43:18.689
and so on, that drove

1339
00:43:18.690 --> 00:43:21.389
the possibility of something else,

1340
00:43:21.390 --> 00:43:23.339
of some other kind of human

1341
00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:24.340
life on this planet. To

1342
00:43:25.380 --> 00:43:27.209
me, is what, in

1343
00:43:27.210 --> 00:43:29.189
fact, I think we need

1344
00:43:29.190 --> 00:43:30.339
at this moment.

1345
00:43:30.340 --> 00:43:31.799
So I'm always hopeful.

1346
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:33.359
I'm always hopeful as well because I

1347
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:35.219
think I have, if anything, I

1348
00:43:35.220 --> 00:43:37.019
have a historical sense.

1349
00:43:37.020 --> 00:43:38.999
I have a sense that of history as

1350
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:40.949
linear but

1351
00:43:40.950 --> 00:43:42.809
of a sense that history has

1352
00:43:42.810 --> 00:43:44.819
not yet played itself out.

1353
00:43:44.820 --> 00:43:46.679
I have a sense that once, in fact,

1354
00:43:46.680 --> 00:43:48.239
there is life, there is a

1355
00:43:48.240 --> 00:43:50.639
possibility of something else.

1356
00:43:50.640 --> 00:43:52.019
Know that may not happen, and I may

1357
00:43:52.020 --> 00:43:52.889
be proven wrong.

1358
00:43:52.890 --> 00:43:54.029
I don't know.

1359
00:43:54.030 --> 00:43:55.769
But I also think that

1360
00:43:57.030 --> 00:43:58.439
there's a way.

1361
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:00.269
What I'm doing is

1362
00:44:00.270 --> 00:44:02.609
arguing against

1363
00:44:02.610 --> 00:44:05.159
a current of thinking

1364
00:44:05.160 --> 00:44:08.009
that says that history has ended,

1365
00:44:08.010 --> 00:44:09.419
that what we need are now just

1366
00:44:09.420 --> 00:44:11.429
technical solutions

1367
00:44:11.430 --> 00:44:13.889
to whatever problems we have.

1368
00:44:13.890 --> 00:44:16.139
We don't need people to be involved

1369
00:44:16.140 --> 00:44:18.629
in these things and so on.

1370
00:44:18.630 --> 00:44:20.699
In a way, in society to

1371
00:44:20.700 --> 00:44:22.289
shape their own lives and so on.

1372
00:44:23.580 --> 00:44:24.839
And I'm trying to argue against

1373
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:26.669
that. I'm arguing against that and

1374
00:44:26.670 --> 00:44:28.769
says that the tradition

1375
00:44:28.770 --> 00:44:30.719
that I operate out of, even though

1376
00:44:30.720 --> 00:44:32.699
I admire if you read my

1377
00:44:32.700 --> 00:44:33.809
work, you see there's a great

1378
00:44:33.810 --> 00:44:35.313
admiration for Foucault, there's

1379
00:44:35.314 --> 00:44:36.479
admiration for Marx, there's

1380
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:38.309
admiration for Hannah Arendt.

1381
00:44:38.310 --> 00:44:40.229
But the tradition

1382
00:44:40.230 --> 00:44:42.329
I operate out of, which works

1383
00:44:42.330 --> 00:44:43.859
with those figures, that is a black

1384
00:44:43.860 --> 00:44:45.339
radical tradition that the works of

1385
00:44:45.340 --> 00:44:46.559
the figures of the Foucault, of the

1386
00:44:46.560 --> 00:44:48.719
Marx, of the Hannah Arendt, and so

1387
00:44:48.720 --> 00:44:50.489
is one of optimism.

1388
00:44:50.490 --> 00:44:51.809
And so, even though I have great

1389
00:44:51.810 --> 00:44:53.789
admiration for Gramsci, and I think

1390
00:44:53.790 --> 00:44:55.289
I understand that he's operating in

1391
00:44:55.290 --> 00:44:57.359
the middle of fascism, I

1392
00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:58.619
operate in the middle of

1393
00:44:58.620 --> 00:44:59.939
neoliberalism.

1394
00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:02.219
I think I have a different view

1395
00:45:02.220 --> 00:45:04.319
on the possibility of hope.

1396
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:05.639
Well, Tony Bogues, thanks very much.

1397
00:45:05.640 --> 00:45:06.899
It's been an honor to be able to

1398
00:45:06.900 --> 00:45:08.189
talk with you today.

1399
00:45:08.190 --> 00:45:09.129
Thank you very much.

1400
00:45:09.130 --> 00:45:10.130
I really

1401
00:45:11.010 --> 00:45:12.779
respect the interview and work

1402
00:45:12.780 --> 00:45:13.979
you've done to make it possible.

1403
00:45:13.980 --> 00:45:14.980
Thank you.

1404
00:45:15.370 --> 00:45:16.370
And

1405
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:19.709
that's it for this episode of the

1406
00:45:19.710 --> 00:45:21.059
University of Pittsburgh Humanities

1407
00:45:21.060 --> 00:45:22.229
podcast.

1408
00:45:22.230 --> 00:45:23.639
Next time, our guest will be Peter

1409
00:45:23.640 --> 00:45:25.529
Holland, the McMeel Family Chair in

1410
00:45:25.530 --> 00:45:26.489
Shakespeare Studies at the

1411
00:45:26.490 --> 00:45:28.349
University of Notre Dame.

1412
00:45:28.350 --> 00:45:29.759
For more information on Pitt's Year

1413
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:31.169
of the Humanities in the University,

1414
00:45:31.170 --> 00:45:32.430
check out our website at

1415
00:45:34.220 --> 00:45:35.459
humanities.pitt.edu.

1416
00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:36.460
Thanks for listening.