WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.705 --> 00:00:01.705 Hello 2 00:00:02.700 --> 00:00:04.139 and welcome to the third installment 3 00:00:04.140 --> 00:00:05.399 of the University of Pittsburgh 4 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:06.839 Humanities podcast. 5 00:00:06.840 --> 00:00:07.840 I'm Dan Kubis. 6 00:00:10.410 --> 00:00:12.149 This series is devoted to exploring 7 00:00:12.150 --> 00:00:13.979 the humanities, their intersections 8 00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:15.299 with other disciplines, and their 9 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.099 value in the public world. 10 00:00:17.100 --> 00:00:18.809 My guest today is Margaret Homans, 11 00:00:18.810 --> 00:00:20.249 professor of English and Women's, 12 00:00:20.250 --> 00:00:21.869 Gender, and Sexuality Studies at 13 00:00:21.870 --> 00:00:22.949 Yale University. 14 00:00:22.950 --> 00:00:24.419 That is the work that literature 15 00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:25.589 should be doing. 16 00:00:25.590 --> 00:00:27.809 That's the most fundamental work, 17 00:00:27.810 --> 00:00:29.939 certainly, of fiction is to immerse 18 00:00:29.940 --> 00:00:31.409 you in somebody else's point of 19 00:00:31.410 --> 00:00:33.689 view, someone else's life world. 20 00:00:33.690 --> 00:00:34.739 Starting with her first book, 21 00:00:34.740 --> 00:00:35.740 published in 1979, Dr. 22 00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:38.579 Homans has produced an important 23 00:00:38.580 --> 00:00:40.679 body of feminist criticism. 24 00:00:40.680 --> 00:00:42.299 She focuses on a wide range of 25 00:00:42.300 --> 00:00:43.829 subjects, including Victorian 26 00:00:43.830 --> 00:00:45.719 poetry, contemporary novels, 27 00:00:45.720 --> 00:00:47.509 and literary theory. 28 00:00:47.510 --> 00:00:48.739 Her most recent book is about 29 00:00:48.740 --> 00:00:50.899 adoption. It's titled The Imprint 30 00:00:50.900 --> 00:00:53.029 of Another Life: Adoption Narratives 31 00:00:53.030 --> 00:00:54.909 and Human Possibility. 32 00:00:54.910 --> 00:00:56.469 Professor Homans has described her 33 00:00:56.470 --> 00:00:57.879 approach to critical writing as 34 00:00:57.880 --> 00:00:58.880 productive fence-sitting. 35 00:00:59.590 --> 00:01:01.449 In other words, she tries to show 36 00:01:01.450 --> 00:01:03.129 how both sides in a debate have a 37 00:01:03.130 --> 00:01:04.598 claim to truth and are 38 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:06.669 interdependent on each other. 39 00:01:06.670 --> 00:01:08.379 At the same time, she reflects on 40 00:01:08.380 --> 00:01:09.939 her own positions as a woman, a 41 00:01:09.940 --> 00:01:12.189 mother, and a scholar, recognizing 42 00:01:12.190 --> 00:01:13.599 that her attempts to find common 43 00:01:13.600 --> 00:01:15.519 ground will inevitably be shaped by 44 00:01:15.520 --> 00:01:16.809 details of her own life. 45 00:01:18.080 --> 00:01:19.459 The result is a body of work that 46 00:01:19.460 --> 00:01:21.229 uses complex thinking to produce a 47 00:01:21.230 --> 00:01:22.829 sense of inclusion, advances 48 00:01:22.830 --> 00:01:24.439 critical debates while remaining 49 00:01:24.440 --> 00:01:26.509 self-aware, and shows literature's 50 00:01:26.510 --> 00:01:28.159 enormous potential to contribute to 51 00:01:28.160 --> 00:01:29.160 social issues. 52 00:01:29.950 --> 00:01:31.509 Dr. Homans is quick to give credit 53 00:01:31.510 --> 00:01:32.859 to her teachers and role models, 54 00:01:32.860 --> 00:01:33.819 including one of her first 55 00:01:33.820 --> 00:01:35.679 professors, Thomas Weiskel, who 56 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:36.909 taught her as an undergraduate in 57 00:01:36.910 --> 00:01:38.499 the earliest days of coeducation at 58 00:01:38.500 --> 00:01:39.669 Yale. 59 00:01:39.670 --> 00:01:41.079 She was one of only a small number 60 00:01:41.080 --> 00:01:42.849 of women on campus, and feminism did 61 00:01:42.850 --> 00:01:44.499 not yet have an established place in 62 00:01:44.500 --> 00:01:46.149 critical discourse. 63 00:01:46.150 --> 00:01:47.709 I began by asking her about those 64 00:01:47.710 --> 00:01:49.539 early days and what motivated her 65 00:01:49.540 --> 00:01:50.469 to pursue a career in the 66 00:01:50.470 --> 00:01:52.209 humanities, despite the obstacles 67 00:01:52.210 --> 00:01:53.210 she faced. 68 00:01:58.950 --> 00:02:00.689 Starting in high school, I knew that 69 00:02:00.690 --> 00:02:02.489 I wanted to be an English professor, 70 00:02:02.490 --> 00:02:04.469 and so 71 00:02:04.470 --> 00:02:06.599 it was possible to take this class 72 00:02:06.600 --> 00:02:08.001 that was a kind of high-powered 73 00:02:09.539 --> 00:02:10.469 early concentration. 74 00:02:10.470 --> 00:02:11.549 It was for people who wanted to be 75 00:02:11.550 --> 00:02:12.509 English majors. 76 00:02:12.510 --> 00:02:14.489 And back in 1970, 77 00:02:14.490 --> 00:02:16.499 being an English major wasn't a joke 78 00:02:16.500 --> 00:02:17.549 the way it is now. 79 00:02:17.550 --> 00:02:20.189 A joke on A Prairie Home Companion, 80 00:02:20.190 --> 00:02:21.239 you know? 81 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:22.889 And I love it when Garrison Keillor 82 00:02:24.030 --> 00:02:25.540 gives his comical riffs about - what 83 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:28.349 is it? - the National Association of 84 00:02:28.350 --> 00:02:29.609 English Majors and all the amazing 85 00:02:29.610 --> 00:02:30.869 things that they can do. 86 00:02:30.870 --> 00:02:33.179 But back then, it was really a 87 00:02:33.180 --> 00:02:35.429 cool thing without irony. 88 00:02:35.430 --> 00:02:37.229 So I had learned how to be a close 89 00:02:37.230 --> 00:02:39.599 reader in high school, and 90 00:02:39.600 --> 00:02:41.429 when I got to Yale, 91 00:02:41.430 --> 00:02:43.889 I nearly dropped out because 92 00:02:43.890 --> 00:02:45.959 the first assignment in this English 93 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:47.759 class was to read something like 60 94 00:02:47.760 --> 00:02:49.139 pages of poetry. 95 00:02:49.140 --> 00:02:50.939 And when you study close reading, 96 00:02:50.940 --> 00:02:52.799 you read one sonnet. 97 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:54.689 And I thought, "I can't possibly do 98 00:02:54.690 --> 00:02:56.219 this." But of course, it was a 99 00:02:56.220 --> 00:02:58.229 wonderful class, and we used close 100 00:02:58.230 --> 00:02:59.339 reading as a technique. But we 101 00:02:59.340 --> 00:03:01.109 talked about other things as well. 102 00:03:01.110 --> 00:03:03.269 And I guess what was formative about 103 00:03:03.270 --> 00:03:05.369 it was actually going deeper 104 00:03:05.370 --> 00:03:06.839 into the method of close reading and 105 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:09.509 discovering how richly you're 106 00:03:09.510 --> 00:03:11.339 rewarded if you pay close 107 00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:13.199 attention to the way the language is 108 00:03:13.200 --> 00:03:15.569 working in a work of literature but 109 00:03:15.570 --> 00:03:17.399 in anything. And literature is a 110 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:19.229 great laboratory for learning 111 00:03:19.230 --> 00:03:20.819 and studying how language works, 112 00:03:22.290 --> 00:03:24.479 but it extends 113 00:03:24.480 --> 00:03:26.369 everywhere. And what I tell students 114 00:03:26.370 --> 00:03:28.259 now is if you can learn how to close 115 00:03:28.260 --> 00:03:30.719 read a sonnet or a short story, 116 00:03:30.720 --> 00:03:33.089 you'll be a much better reader of 117 00:03:33.090 --> 00:03:35.339 the newspaper, of a legal case, 118 00:03:35.340 --> 00:03:37.229 of whatever documents you 119 00:03:37.230 --> 00:03:39.329 need to read in your future, 120 00:03:39.330 --> 00:03:41.309 even if they're not so-called 121 00:03:41.310 --> 00:03:42.310 literary. 122 00:03:43.320 --> 00:03:45.689 There was one day when 123 00:03:45.690 --> 00:03:47.729 Thomas Weiskel came 124 00:03:47.730 --> 00:03:49.649 into class really 125 00:03:49.650 --> 00:03:51.209 excited about an insight that he had 126 00:03:51.210 --> 00:03:52.649 had when we were talking about 127 00:03:52.650 --> 00:03:54.689 Wordsworth's poem Tintern Abbey. 128 00:03:54.690 --> 00:03:55.949 So this must have been in maybe 129 00:03:55.950 --> 00:03:57.659 April of that year. 130 00:03:57.660 --> 00:03:59.399 So we were all good friends by then, 131 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.229 and he said 132 00:04:01.230 --> 00:04:03.509 he just kind of noticed this. 133 00:04:03.510 --> 00:04:04.510 Wordsworth says not 134 00:04:05.730 --> 00:04:07.769 "the picture in the mind revives 135 00:04:07.770 --> 00:04:09.659 again" when he goes back to this 136 00:04:09.660 --> 00:04:11.759 beautiful place that he was at five 137 00:04:11.760 --> 00:04:14.009 years ago. And he's now revisiting 138 00:04:14.010 --> 00:04:15.569 it, and he has all these fond 139 00:04:15.570 --> 00:04:16.619 memories of it. 140 00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:18.028 He doesn't say, "The picture in the 141 00:04:18.029 --> 00:04:20.009 mind revives again," he 142 00:04:20.010 --> 00:04:22.109 says, "The picture of the mind 143 00:04:22.110 --> 00:04:24.509 revives again." And 144 00:04:24.510 --> 00:04:26.669 if you think really carefully 145 00:04:26.670 --> 00:04:27.839 about the difference in those two 146 00:04:27.840 --> 00:04:29.789 pronouns, they're just 147 00:04:29.790 --> 00:04:31.379 these tiny words, but they make such 148 00:04:31.380 --> 00:04:32.399 a difference. In other words, what 149 00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:33.701 he's excited about is not the place 150 00:04:33.702 --> 00:04:35.699 but his own head. 151 00:04:35.700 --> 00:04:37.588 And that, for me, was kind of a 152 00:04:37.589 --> 00:04:38.589 magic moment of 153 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:41.909 showing what you get from 154 00:04:41.910 --> 00:04:42.910 paying close attention. 155 00:04:44.220 --> 00:04:46.259 So that was also a 156 00:04:46.260 --> 00:04:47.399 class in which 157 00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:51.869 I was just 158 00:04:51.870 --> 00:04:54.239 barely beginning to understand 159 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:56.009 what feminist literary criticism 160 00:04:56.010 --> 00:04:57.010 would look like. 161 00:04:58.170 --> 00:04:59.639 Thomas Wieskel, at the very end of 162 00:04:59.640 --> 00:05:01.979 the year, brought into class 163 00:05:01.980 --> 00:05:03.749 a copy of the New York Review of 164 00:05:03.750 --> 00:05:05.639 Books that included an article by 165 00:05:05.640 --> 00:05:07.469 Ellen Moers, who 166 00:05:07.470 --> 00:05:09.449 was the author of an early work of 167 00:05:09.450 --> 00:05:11.039 feminist literary criticism called 168 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:12.629 Literary Women. 169 00:05:12.630 --> 00:05:14.399 And he just wanted to say, "Look, 170 00:05:14.400 --> 00:05:16.379 this exists." And there 171 00:05:16.380 --> 00:05:18.389 were three women in the class, eight 172 00:05:18.390 --> 00:05:19.679 men. 173 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:20.999 These were in the years, when there 174 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:22.229 were very few women at Yale; 175 00:05:22.230 --> 00:05:24.299 coeducation had just begun. 176 00:05:24.300 --> 00:05:26.429 And it really kind of sparked 177 00:05:26.430 --> 00:05:28.259 something in my head that it was 178 00:05:28.260 --> 00:05:30.149 a male professor, 179 00:05:30.150 --> 00:05:32.369 who was not at all particularly 180 00:05:32.370 --> 00:05:33.989 interested in women writers or any 181 00:05:33.990 --> 00:05:35.939 of these issues, but he noticed 182 00:05:35.940 --> 00:05:37.259 that this was significant. And he 183 00:05:37.260 --> 00:05:38.639 noticed that it might be significant 184 00:05:38.640 --> 00:05:39.614 to some of the women in the class, 185 00:05:39.615 --> 00:05:40.748 and it was to me. 186 00:05:40.749 --> 00:05:42.659 It seems to be a separate 187 00:05:42.660 --> 00:05:43.660 subject from close 188 00:05:44.700 --> 00:05:45.700 reading, but 189 00:05:46.590 --> 00:05:48.539 it wasn't because it 190 00:05:48.540 --> 00:05:50.699 was also about reading closely in 191 00:05:50.700 --> 00:05:51.700 a different way. 192 00:05:53.070 --> 00:05:54.719 I was interested to hear you say 193 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:56.519 that when you were in high school 194 00:05:56.520 --> 00:05:58.109 you knew you wanted to be an English 195 00:05:58.110 --> 00:05:59.609 professor. 196 00:05:59.610 --> 00:06:01.199 And it reminded me of something I 197 00:06:01.200 --> 00:06:02.279 read in an interview recently with 198 00:06:02.280 --> 00:06:04.289 Sandra Gilbert, who was 199 00:06:04.290 --> 00:06:06.449 reflecting on her early 200 00:06:06.450 --> 00:06:08.369 years as a graduate 201 00:06:08.370 --> 00:06:10.619 student and even as she was 202 00:06:10.620 --> 00:06:11.620 a young professor. And 203 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:14.159 she said in her interview she was 204 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:16.499 almost amazed at her own courage. 205 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:17.500 And she said, 206 00:06:18.690 --> 00:06:19.755 all of her professors at the time 207 00:06:19.756 --> 00:06:21.539 had tweed coats and smoked pipes. 208 00:06:21.540 --> 00:06:23.429 And she was looking back, 209 00:06:23.430 --> 00:06:25.325 she had this amazement, like, she 210 00:06:25.326 --> 00:06:26.429 even said, "What did I think I was 211 00:06:26.430 --> 00:06:27.430 doing?" at the time. 212 00:06:28.410 --> 00:06:29.459 Do you look back similarly when you 213 00:06:29.460 --> 00:06:30.809 were in high school you knew you 214 00:06:30.810 --> 00:06:31.919 wanted to be an English professor? 215 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:33.479 It's so interesting. 216 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:35.639 Generations in that period-- 217 00:06:35.640 --> 00:06:37.619 generations were just 218 00:06:37.620 --> 00:06:39.299 a few years apart. 219 00:06:39.300 --> 00:06:41.459 And she's not much older than me. 220 00:06:41.460 --> 00:06:43.469 But in terms of these issues, 221 00:06:43.470 --> 00:06:45.269 I was a generation ahead in the 222 00:06:45.270 --> 00:06:47.249 sense that when I was finishing high 223 00:06:47.250 --> 00:06:49.349 school, the big male 224 00:06:49.350 --> 00:06:51.479 school-- all-male schools were 225 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:53.579 beginning to let women in. 226 00:06:53.580 --> 00:06:55.619 And so it seemed 227 00:06:55.620 --> 00:06:57.479 that the academy was 228 00:06:57.480 --> 00:06:59.149 open to women. 229 00:06:59.150 --> 00:07:01.279 And when she was at the same stage 230 00:07:01.280 --> 00:07:03.259 in her educational career, that 231 00:07:03.260 --> 00:07:04.639 was not the case. 232 00:07:04.640 --> 00:07:07.069 And I also grew up in Boston, 233 00:07:07.070 --> 00:07:09.019 which is such a center for 234 00:07:09.020 --> 00:07:10.189 education. 235 00:07:10.190 --> 00:07:12.169 I had had family who were college 236 00:07:12.170 --> 00:07:13.909 and, actually, medical school 237 00:07:13.910 --> 00:07:15.349 teachers. 238 00:07:15.350 --> 00:07:16.879 So being in the education business 239 00:07:16.880 --> 00:07:18.739 seemed like a normal thing. 240 00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:19.729 I mean, there were all kinds of 241 00:07:19.730 --> 00:07:21.049 things in my social background that 242 00:07:21.050 --> 00:07:23.269 made it more or less ordinary 243 00:07:23.270 --> 00:07:24.679 that I would have that aspiration. 244 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:26.209 But I think it really had to do with 245 00:07:26.210 --> 00:07:28.189 the fact that Harvard had always 246 00:07:28.190 --> 00:07:29.449 had Radcliffe, but I think the 247 00:07:29.450 --> 00:07:30.559 Radcliffe students were getting 248 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:32.329 Harvard degrees. At that point, Yale 249 00:07:32.330 --> 00:07:33.589 had opened its doors to women. 250 00:07:33.590 --> 00:07:35.959 A lot of the exclusive all-male 251 00:07:35.960 --> 00:07:37.579 liberal arts colleges in New England 252 00:07:37.580 --> 00:07:39.439 were opening their doors. 253 00:07:39.440 --> 00:07:41.539 And so it 254 00:07:41.540 --> 00:07:43.069 felt like a normal thing to do. 255 00:07:45.110 --> 00:07:46.759 You also had-- there's an 256 00:07:46.760 --> 00:07:48.499 interesting kind of relationship 257 00:07:48.500 --> 00:07:50.429 that your first book, Women Writers 258 00:07:50.430 --> 00:07:52.249 and Poetic Identity, had with a 259 00:07:52.250 --> 00:07:54.139 very landmark text 260 00:07:54.140 --> 00:07:55.789 in feminist criticism, which is The 261 00:07:55.790 --> 00:07:57.379 Madwoman in the Attic, which is that 262 00:07:57.380 --> 00:07:59.539 you finished writing it before 263 00:07:59.540 --> 00:08:01.069 the Madwoman in the Attic was 264 00:08:01.070 --> 00:08:03.079 published. But then, by the time 265 00:08:03.080 --> 00:08:04.669 your book was published, that book 266 00:08:04.670 --> 00:08:05.779 was out. So you have an interesting 267 00:08:05.780 --> 00:08:08.179 piece in the introduction to that 268 00:08:08.180 --> 00:08:10.549 book-- your first book about that 269 00:08:10.550 --> 00:08:11.509 kind of relationship. 270 00:08:11.510 --> 00:08:13.819 And you mention that in your note 271 00:08:13.820 --> 00:08:15.769 that you felt 272 00:08:15.770 --> 00:08:16.969 like you were doing different but 273 00:08:16.970 --> 00:08:18.799 complementary things in those two 274 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:20.989 words. Did you feel at that time 275 00:08:20.990 --> 00:08:22.939 as though you were contributing to 276 00:08:22.940 --> 00:08:24.079 a collective effort at all? 277 00:08:24.080 --> 00:08:25.249 Or is that something that's clearer 278 00:08:25.250 --> 00:08:26.989 in hindsight? Or how was it when you 279 00:08:26.990 --> 00:08:28.249 were in those days, the 280 00:08:28.250 --> 00:08:29.029 mid-seventies? 281 00:08:29.030 --> 00:08:30.859 Yeah. I was writing my 282 00:08:30.860 --> 00:08:33.168 dissertation in 283 00:08:33.169 --> 00:08:34.750 basically the year 77-78, 284 00:08:36.710 --> 00:08:38.928 and I wrote it that quickly 285 00:08:38.929 --> 00:08:40.428 because it was basically a close 286 00:08:40.429 --> 00:08:41.899 reading dissertation. 287 00:08:41.900 --> 00:08:43.908 It was about my 288 00:08:43.909 --> 00:08:45.739 encounter with those texts, and it 289 00:08:45.740 --> 00:08:47.299 did not involve a whole lot of 290 00:08:47.300 --> 00:08:49.399 social and historical research. 291 00:08:49.400 --> 00:08:51.619 And nowadays, one could not 292 00:08:51.620 --> 00:08:52.620 get away with that. 293 00:08:54.230 --> 00:08:56.059 And I really thought I was coming 294 00:08:56.060 --> 00:08:57.979 up with something that was 295 00:08:57.980 --> 00:09:00.079 all my own because 296 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:01.369 the other feminist literary 297 00:09:01.370 --> 00:09:02.719 criticism that had been published up 298 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:04.339 to that point, which included 299 00:09:04.340 --> 00:09:06.469 Eleanor's Literary Women, Elaine 300 00:09:06.470 --> 00:09:07.909 Showalter's A Literature of Their 301 00:09:07.910 --> 00:09:09.769 Own, a few other pieces, 302 00:09:09.770 --> 00:09:11.839 they were all focused 303 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:13.909 on fiction. And they were much 304 00:09:13.910 --> 00:09:15.139 more focused on 305 00:09:16.370 --> 00:09:18.229 the social world - what it was like 306 00:09:18.230 --> 00:09:20.089 for women to be socialized 307 00:09:20.090 --> 00:09:22.189 as women and the consequences 308 00:09:22.190 --> 00:09:24.169 of that for their writing fiction. 309 00:09:24.170 --> 00:09:25.999 And I had this, I think now, 310 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:27.499 looking back on it, kind of quixotic 311 00:09:27.500 --> 00:09:29.449 belief that I 312 00:09:29.450 --> 00:09:31.609 could make feminist claims about 313 00:09:31.610 --> 00:09:33.499 women poets based 314 00:09:33.500 --> 00:09:35.239 simply on the relation between their 315 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:37.669 texts and previous texts. 316 00:09:37.670 --> 00:09:39.029 And because that was the closed 317 00:09:39.030 --> 00:09:40.489 reading method. 318 00:09:40.490 --> 00:09:42.229 And so I talked about textual 319 00:09:42.230 --> 00:09:44.119 interrelationships between Dorothy 320 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:46.369 and William Wordsworth writing. 321 00:09:46.370 --> 00:09:49.039 I wasn't at all interested in their 322 00:09:49.040 --> 00:09:51.229 embeddedness in a social culture. 323 00:09:51.230 --> 00:09:52.639 I talked about Emily Dickinson 324 00:09:52.640 --> 00:09:55.429 textual relationship with Emerson, 325 00:09:55.430 --> 00:09:57.289 and with Wordsworth, and so on. 326 00:09:57.290 --> 00:09:59.299 And in hindsight, it's 327 00:09:59.300 --> 00:10:00.979 kind of unfortunate that I wasn't 328 00:10:00.980 --> 00:10:03.207 part of a more collective effort. 329 00:10:04.250 --> 00:10:06.079 But I was at Yale, and 330 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:07.489 I was the only person doing this 331 00:10:07.490 --> 00:10:08.539 kind of work. 332 00:10:08.540 --> 00:10:10.369 My advisors had absolutely 333 00:10:10.370 --> 00:10:11.839 nothing to contribute to what I was 334 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:13.459 doing. They had no idea. 335 00:10:14.630 --> 00:10:16.669 And so I felt like 336 00:10:16.670 --> 00:10:18.019 I was inventing something all by 337 00:10:18.020 --> 00:10:19.249 myself. And then, when I read that 338 00:10:19.250 --> 00:10:21.499 book, I discovered, "Oh, yes, 339 00:10:21.500 --> 00:10:23.209 there is this large effort going 340 00:10:23.210 --> 00:10:25.219 on." And it was very exciting 341 00:10:25.220 --> 00:10:27.049 to discover that and to 342 00:10:27.050 --> 00:10:29.049 recognize that I was, 343 00:10:29.050 --> 00:10:30.619 as you say, doing something somewhat 344 00:10:30.620 --> 00:10:32.509 different but also 345 00:10:32.510 --> 00:10:33.469 connected. 346 00:10:33.470 --> 00:10:35.269 And then after that, it was 347 00:10:35.270 --> 00:10:36.709 tremendously exciting to go to the 348 00:10:36.710 --> 00:10:37.909 Modern Language Association 349 00:10:37.910 --> 00:10:39.739 convention, where that was 350 00:10:39.740 --> 00:10:41.149 the place where feminist critics 351 00:10:41.150 --> 00:10:42.469 were collecting. 352 00:10:42.470 --> 00:10:44.509 And we would go 353 00:10:44.510 --> 00:10:46.099 to these late-night sessions. 354 00:10:46.100 --> 00:10:47.989 And I met people from 355 00:10:47.990 --> 00:10:49.039 all across the country, who were 356 00:10:49.040 --> 00:10:50.989 doing this work, and 357 00:10:50.990 --> 00:10:52.189 we would stay up half the night 358 00:10:52.190 --> 00:10:53.359 inventing new ideas. 359 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:54.980 It was really, really tremendous. 360 00:10:56.030 --> 00:10:57.030 So you've been thinking 361 00:10:58.550 --> 00:11:00.499 about the early years of your 362 00:11:00.500 --> 00:11:02.659 work as a feminist literary scholar. 363 00:11:02.660 --> 00:11:04.639 And now here 364 00:11:04.640 --> 00:11:06.559 we are. That was mid-seventies, late 365 00:11:06.560 --> 00:11:07.819 seventies when your book came out in 366 00:11:07.820 --> 00:11:09.055 1980; it was your first book. 367 00:11:09.056 --> 00:11:10.056 After 368 00:11:11.060 --> 00:11:14.059 30 years, can you look and see 369 00:11:14.060 --> 00:11:16.279 changes that are 370 00:11:16.280 --> 00:11:18.289 there for young women as graduate 371 00:11:18.290 --> 00:11:19.459 students and professors? 372 00:11:19.460 --> 00:11:21.019 And how do you-- how do you talk 373 00:11:21.020 --> 00:11:22.099 about-- how do you think about those 374 00:11:22.100 --> 00:11:23.149 changes? 375 00:11:23.150 --> 00:11:25.099 Well, first of all, 376 00:11:25.100 --> 00:11:26.779 graduate students now can take 377 00:11:26.780 --> 00:11:28.489 classes with people like me, which 378 00:11:28.490 --> 00:11:29.839 makes a big difference. 379 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.119 And when I was in college, 380 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:34.399 the only woman professor that I had 381 00:11:34.400 --> 00:11:36.529 was not a professor 382 00:11:36.530 --> 00:11:39.559 on the latter track but a lecturer 383 00:11:39.560 --> 00:11:41.239 who had been denied tenure and who 384 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:42.289 taught Chaucer. 385 00:11:42.290 --> 00:11:44.149 And it was very typical 386 00:11:44.150 --> 00:11:46.069 in those days that the medievalists 387 00:11:46.070 --> 00:11:47.539 were women, because medieval was 388 00:11:47.540 --> 00:11:49.969 considered a specialty 389 00:11:49.970 --> 00:11:51.229 suitable for women because it 390 00:11:51.230 --> 00:11:52.230 involved 391 00:11:53.540 --> 00:11:55.549 doing sort of mindless 392 00:11:55.550 --> 00:11:57.259 technical work. 393 00:11:57.260 --> 00:11:58.889 So women could be medievalists, but 394 00:11:58.890 --> 00:12:00.719 they weren't in the other fields. 395 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:02.819 And the scene for graduate students 396 00:12:02.820 --> 00:12:03.819 now is so different. 397 00:12:03.820 --> 00:12:05.849 Half the faculty are women, 398 00:12:05.850 --> 00:12:07.799 not half the full professors, but 399 00:12:07.800 --> 00:12:09.449 still, a lot of the faculty are 400 00:12:09.450 --> 00:12:11.309 women. Many courses 401 00:12:11.310 --> 00:12:14.339 integrate critical race studies, 402 00:12:14.340 --> 00:12:16.109 feminist studies, queer studies, all 403 00:12:16.110 --> 00:12:17.369 kinds of subjects that weren't even 404 00:12:17.370 --> 00:12:19.439 subjects back then. 405 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:21.299 So I envy the graduate students. 406 00:12:21.300 --> 00:12:23.699 I wish I could be a student now. 407 00:12:23.700 --> 00:12:25.619 Work has also gotten 408 00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:27.509 much more interdisciplinary, and 409 00:12:27.510 --> 00:12:29.339 here, I think we turn to the subject 410 00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:31.559 of the Year of the Humanities. 411 00:12:31.560 --> 00:12:33.479 New historicism hit the 412 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:35.369 academy in the eighties, 413 00:12:35.370 --> 00:12:37.049 and there was really no going back 414 00:12:37.050 --> 00:12:38.549 from that. I mean, I don't think my 415 00:12:38.550 --> 00:12:39.929 colleagues would describe themselves 416 00:12:39.930 --> 00:12:40.916 anymore as new historicists. 417 00:12:40.917 --> 00:12:43.049 But the idea 418 00:12:43.050 --> 00:12:45.119 of putting 419 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:46.949 literature into its historical 420 00:12:46.950 --> 00:12:49.049 situation, you can't 421 00:12:49.050 --> 00:12:50.939 do scholarship now without doing 422 00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:52.859 that. And we have 423 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:54.479 big quarrels with the historians 424 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.279 about what literature is and what 425 00:12:56.280 --> 00:12:57.779 it's for. It's not as though we've 426 00:12:57.780 --> 00:12:59.819 kind of signed on to becoming 427 00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:01.739 historians, but I think we would 428 00:13:01.740 --> 00:13:03.779 now see ourselves much more 429 00:13:03.780 --> 00:13:05.639 as cultural historians 430 00:13:05.640 --> 00:13:07.439 than we would have 30 or 40 years 431 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:08.369 ago. 432 00:13:08.370 --> 00:13:10.769 And people are reaching into 433 00:13:10.770 --> 00:13:12.749 ethnography, 434 00:13:12.750 --> 00:13:14.339 all kinds of social science 435 00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:15.340 disciplines, 436 00:13:17.160 --> 00:13:19.619 as well as making 437 00:13:19.620 --> 00:13:21.149 really interesting connections to 438 00:13:21.150 --> 00:13:22.679 art and art history. 439 00:13:22.680 --> 00:13:24.209 A strong interest in religion and 440 00:13:24.210 --> 00:13:25.889 literature - people who are studying 441 00:13:25.890 --> 00:13:27.509 world Anglophone or post-colonial 442 00:13:27.510 --> 00:13:29.279 literatures have to think about 443 00:13:29.280 --> 00:13:30.329 religion as well. 444 00:13:30.330 --> 00:13:32.579 So there's just a huge 445 00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:34.349 kind of broadening out of the field 446 00:13:34.350 --> 00:13:36.179 that's really fantastic. 447 00:13:36.180 --> 00:13:38.309 And when I think about my efforts 448 00:13:38.310 --> 00:13:40.919 to study literature all by itself, 449 00:13:40.920 --> 00:13:42.899 it seems like the field has 450 00:13:42.900 --> 00:13:44.460 really grown in good ways. 451 00:13:45.660 --> 00:13:47.489 You mentioned these kind of 452 00:13:47.490 --> 00:13:50.099 creating conversations between 453 00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:52.589 writers just based on being writers 454 00:13:52.590 --> 00:13:54.509 at the time. And I notice that 455 00:13:54.510 --> 00:13:55.829 as something that-- how you did that 456 00:13:55.830 --> 00:13:57.599 in your first book, you talked about 457 00:13:57.600 --> 00:13:58.889 the 19th-century writers and then 458 00:13:58.890 --> 00:14:00.719 also ended with a chapter on 459 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:02.339 Sylvia Plath and Adrian Richards, 460 00:14:02.340 --> 00:14:04.739 contemporary female poets. 461 00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:06.209 But it seemed to me like looking 462 00:14:06.210 --> 00:14:07.259 through-- so that book, and then 463 00:14:07.260 --> 00:14:09.329 also looking at the range of things 464 00:14:09.330 --> 00:14:11.429 you've published on throughout 465 00:14:11.430 --> 00:14:12.430 your career, it 466 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:15.989 seemed to me that you had an 467 00:14:15.990 --> 00:14:17.909 interest in writing about historical 468 00:14:17.910 --> 00:14:19.469 writers, but then also writing about 469 00:14:19.470 --> 00:14:21.299 contemporary writers. 470 00:14:21.300 --> 00:14:22.139 And I wonder if that's something-- 471 00:14:22.140 --> 00:14:24.209 is that just where your interests 472 00:14:24.210 --> 00:14:26.039 take you, or is that something 473 00:14:26.040 --> 00:14:27.749 that you consciously do to try to 474 00:14:27.750 --> 00:14:29.399 create that conversation between 475 00:14:29.400 --> 00:14:30.899 contemporary writers and the past? 476 00:14:30.900 --> 00:14:32.159 Well, yes. 477 00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:33.899 I am interested in that. 478 00:14:33.900 --> 00:14:35.819 But it's also the case that when I 479 00:14:35.820 --> 00:14:37.469 started teaching at Yale, that was 480 00:14:37.470 --> 00:14:38.819 when the Women's Studies Program 481 00:14:38.820 --> 00:14:39.749 began. 482 00:14:39.750 --> 00:14:41.669 And so my career and the 483 00:14:41.670 --> 00:14:43.559 career of that program are 484 00:14:43.560 --> 00:14:44.399 the same. 485 00:14:44.400 --> 00:14:46.289 I quickly got swept up 486 00:14:46.290 --> 00:14:47.290 into 487 00:14:48.300 --> 00:14:50.249 inventing the first curriculum 488 00:14:50.250 --> 00:14:51.749 for the program. 489 00:14:51.750 --> 00:14:53.609 It was very exciting to be involved, 490 00:14:53.610 --> 00:14:54.809 and it was then called Women's 491 00:14:54.810 --> 00:14:56.429 Studies. Now it's Women's, Gender, 492 00:14:56.430 --> 00:14:57.650 and Sexuality studies. 493 00:14:58.920 --> 00:15:00.389 It was very exciting to be involved 494 00:15:00.390 --> 00:15:02.129 in this cross-disciplinary and very 495 00:15:02.130 --> 00:15:04.229 politically aware 496 00:15:04.230 --> 00:15:06.089 group. And this, too, was 497 00:15:06.090 --> 00:15:07.979 very different from my own 498 00:15:07.980 --> 00:15:09.419 training as an English scholar, 499 00:15:09.420 --> 00:15:11.189 which was a training that was 500 00:15:11.190 --> 00:15:13.319 completely unaware of politics 501 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:14.099 of any kind. 502 00:15:14.100 --> 00:15:15.569 I mean, when we studied Romanticism, 503 00:15:15.570 --> 00:15:16.649 we were aware that the French 504 00:15:16.650 --> 00:15:18.269 Revolution had happened, that 505 00:15:18.270 --> 00:15:19.799 Wordsworth was very excited about 506 00:15:19.800 --> 00:15:20.969 it, and then he was disappointed, 507 00:15:20.970 --> 00:15:22.259 but it was more or less in the 508 00:15:22.260 --> 00:15:23.189 background. 509 00:15:23.190 --> 00:15:25.199 So since those days of working 510 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:26.549 with the beginnings of the Women's 511 00:15:26.550 --> 00:15:28.079 Studies program, I've had a strong 512 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:29.909 interest in fiction 513 00:15:29.910 --> 00:15:31.379 and poetry and drama that helps to 514 00:15:31.380 --> 00:15:33.239 create political ideas. 515 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:35.129 So I've taught many 516 00:15:35.130 --> 00:15:37.169 iterations of a course that started 517 00:15:37.170 --> 00:15:38.939 out being called feminist fictions. 518 00:15:38.940 --> 00:15:40.859 And this spring, 519 00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:41.969 I'm going to teach a course called 520 00:15:41.970 --> 00:15:43.157 Imagining Sexual Politics. 521 00:15:43.158 --> 00:15:45.809 It's the same idea. 522 00:15:45.810 --> 00:15:47.819 I'm really interested in novels, 523 00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:48.899 whether starting with Mary 524 00:15:48.900 --> 00:15:50.969 Wollstonecraft's fiction or starting 525 00:15:50.970 --> 00:15:52.859 more recently with the second wave 526 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:55.139 of feminism. Novels primarily, but 527 00:15:55.140 --> 00:15:57.329 also poetry and drama that 528 00:15:57.330 --> 00:15:59.669 has actively helped to produce 529 00:15:59.670 --> 00:16:01.589 political ideas around feminism 530 00:16:01.590 --> 00:16:02.939 and sexuality. 531 00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:04.979 So I got excited about Adrienne 532 00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:06.509 Rich because she was using her 533 00:16:06.510 --> 00:16:08.849 amazing skills as a poet to 534 00:16:08.850 --> 00:16:10.679 put into the culture-- into 535 00:16:10.680 --> 00:16:12.749 wide circulation ideas 536 00:16:12.750 --> 00:16:14.309 that were also radical feminist 537 00:16:14.310 --> 00:16:16.439 ideas. And so I guess, 538 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:17.759 at the beginning, that felt like a 539 00:16:17.760 --> 00:16:19.019 separate interest. 540 00:16:19.020 --> 00:16:20.969 But they've come closer and closer, 541 00:16:20.970 --> 00:16:21.809 I suppose. 542 00:16:21.810 --> 00:16:23.669 And that's probably why I 543 00:16:23.670 --> 00:16:25.739 turned from teaching and writing 544 00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:27.209 about poetry to teaching and writing 545 00:16:27.210 --> 00:16:29.459 about fiction, because 546 00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:31.349 fiction is much-- it's just 547 00:16:31.350 --> 00:16:33.149 much easier to see it's social 548 00:16:33.150 --> 00:16:35.189 embeddedness and it's political 549 00:16:35.190 --> 00:16:36.509 claims. 550 00:16:36.510 --> 00:16:38.549 So that's been a turn for 551 00:16:38.550 --> 00:16:39.550 me. 552 00:16:40.050 --> 00:16:41.849 But it was a great influence to work 553 00:16:41.850 --> 00:16:43.139 with the Women's Studies Program 554 00:16:43.140 --> 00:16:44.999 because there were historians 555 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:46.049 and social scientists. 556 00:16:46.050 --> 00:16:48.119 And I had to make the case 557 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:50.519 for why literature was important, 558 00:16:50.520 --> 00:16:52.139 and I had to understand why their 559 00:16:52.140 --> 00:16:53.140 fields were. 560 00:16:54.270 --> 00:16:56.309 This is something I have a personal 561 00:16:56.310 --> 00:16:57.449 interest in. I wrote my dissertation 562 00:16:57.450 --> 00:16:59.269 on politics and literary 563 00:16:59.270 --> 00:17:00.270 criticism. 564 00:17:02.910 --> 00:17:03.799 When I think about the Year of the 565 00:17:03.800 --> 00:17:05.299 Humanities too, I think about 566 00:17:06.859 --> 00:17:08.179 one of the goals being, within the 567 00:17:08.180 --> 00:17:10.098 university, to talk about work 568 00:17:10.099 --> 00:17:11.598 and how the work in the humanities 569 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:12.559 relates to other fields. 570 00:17:12.560 --> 00:17:14.358 But then also this kind of broader 571 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:15.799 horizon of thinking about how that 572 00:17:15.800 --> 00:17:17.818 work has an impact on the public. 573 00:17:17.819 --> 00:17:19.068 When you mentioned novelists 574 00:17:19.069 --> 00:17:20.959 creating political 575 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:22.399 ideas, I mean, can you talk a little 576 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:24.318 bit about, first 577 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:25.249 of all, what you mean by that phrase, 578 00:17:25.250 --> 00:17:27.229 but also, how did that development 579 00:17:27.230 --> 00:17:28.699 happen for you? 580 00:17:28.700 --> 00:17:30.559 Well, one thing to think 581 00:17:30.560 --> 00:17:32.659 about here is the subgenre 582 00:17:32.660 --> 00:17:34.459 of feminist science fiction. 583 00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:36.319 In the second wave, people 584 00:17:36.320 --> 00:17:37.320 like Ursula K. Le Guin, Joanna 585 00:17:38.690 --> 00:17:40.729 Russ, and Marge Piercy 586 00:17:40.730 --> 00:17:42.859 were writing utopian, 587 00:17:42.860 --> 00:17:45.109 also dystopian novels 588 00:17:45.110 --> 00:17:46.519 because if you want political 589 00:17:46.520 --> 00:17:47.869 change, you have to imagine what 590 00:17:47.870 --> 00:17:49.129 it's going to look like. 591 00:17:49.130 --> 00:17:50.959 Ursula K. Le Guin in The Left Hand 592 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:52.579 of Darkness imagined a world in 593 00:17:52.580 --> 00:17:54.559 which biological sex difference 594 00:17:54.560 --> 00:17:55.969 works differently and is much more 595 00:17:55.970 --> 00:17:58.849 fluid than it is on Earth. 596 00:17:58.850 --> 00:18:00.709 Marge Piercy in Woman On The 597 00:18:00.710 --> 00:18:02.629 Edge of Time imagined a 598 00:18:02.630 --> 00:18:04.699 utopia in which women 599 00:18:04.700 --> 00:18:05.929 have given up-- do you know this 600 00:18:05.930 --> 00:18:06.379 novel? 601 00:18:06.380 --> 00:18:06.758 Yeah, I do. 602 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:08.479 They've given up their biological 603 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:09.769 specialty of being able to give 604 00:18:09.770 --> 00:18:11.599 birth, and in 605 00:18:11.600 --> 00:18:13.369 exchange, they have this amazing, 606 00:18:13.370 --> 00:18:15.919 utopian, egalitarian society. 607 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:17.809 And it seemed just tremendously 608 00:18:17.810 --> 00:18:19.279 exciting that these writers, who 609 00:18:19.280 --> 00:18:20.630 were pretty popular, 610 00:18:22.250 --> 00:18:24.409 were able to 611 00:18:24.410 --> 00:18:25.410 change the way 612 00:18:26.330 --> 00:18:27.349 a reader would think. 613 00:18:27.350 --> 00:18:28.519 I mean, once you've read one of 614 00:18:28.520 --> 00:18:29.779 those novels, you can't think about 615 00:18:29.780 --> 00:18:31.849 gender the same way. 616 00:18:31.850 --> 00:18:33.529 I guess it just seemed to me that 617 00:18:33.530 --> 00:18:35.539 these works made the case for why 618 00:18:35.540 --> 00:18:37.429 literature matters in a way that was 619 00:18:37.430 --> 00:18:39.739 much more simple and straightforward 620 00:18:39.740 --> 00:18:41.689 than the more circuitous, 621 00:18:41.690 --> 00:18:43.609 indirect case that I might have made 622 00:18:43.610 --> 00:18:45.169 for it when I was thinking just 623 00:18:45.170 --> 00:18:46.999 about close reading as a 624 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:48.000 skill. 625 00:18:50.009 --> 00:18:51.359 One of the other things I'm 626 00:18:51.360 --> 00:18:53.669 interested in is thinking about 627 00:18:53.670 --> 00:18:55.529 feminism, and in your work, 628 00:18:55.530 --> 00:18:57.119 is thinking about feminism as a 629 00:18:57.120 --> 00:18:58.289 movement that is obviously broader 630 00:18:58.290 --> 00:18:59.609 than just something that's affected 631 00:18:59.610 --> 00:19:00.719 higher education, literary 632 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:01.720 criticism. I mean, there's been all 633 00:19:02.580 --> 00:19:04.649 sorts of changes all across American 634 00:19:04.650 --> 00:19:05.650 culture. 635 00:19:06.150 --> 00:19:08.099 But in your work as a literary 636 00:19:08.100 --> 00:19:09.059 critic-- as a feminist literary 637 00:19:09.060 --> 00:19:11.069 critic, do you feel 638 00:19:11.070 --> 00:19:13.049 that you are contributing 639 00:19:13.050 --> 00:19:14.050 something unique 640 00:19:15.870 --> 00:19:18.539 as a teacher or as a scholar 641 00:19:18.540 --> 00:19:19.899 to feminism more broadly? 642 00:19:19.900 --> 00:19:22.049 As a literary scholar? 643 00:19:22.050 --> 00:19:24.029 And then if you do, what is that? 644 00:19:24.030 --> 00:19:25.980 Oh, yeah. That's a good question. 645 00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:30.179 The role of literature has certainly 646 00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:32.969 waned, I would say, 647 00:19:32.970 --> 00:19:34.349 but it's still 648 00:19:35.550 --> 00:19:36.839 very present. 649 00:19:36.840 --> 00:19:38.729 And I would say that when 650 00:19:38.730 --> 00:19:40.439 I teach these classes that are sort 651 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:41.549 of hybrid English 652 00:19:42.810 --> 00:19:44.969 GWSS classes, I'm equipping 653 00:19:44.970 --> 00:19:46.799 students to read the world 654 00:19:46.800 --> 00:19:49.019 around them more thoughtfully 655 00:19:49.020 --> 00:19:50.849 as feminist and 656 00:19:50.850 --> 00:19:52.889 queer and 657 00:19:52.890 --> 00:19:54.869 sexual minority identifying 658 00:19:54.870 --> 00:19:56.009 students. 659 00:19:56.010 --> 00:19:58.379 I want them to 660 00:19:58.380 --> 00:20:00.749 also understand the history 661 00:20:00.750 --> 00:20:02.579 of where new 662 00:20:02.580 --> 00:20:04.379 ideas come from. 663 00:20:04.380 --> 00:20:06.119 In the course I'm teaching now, 664 00:20:06.120 --> 00:20:07.180 called Feminist and Queer Theory, we 665 00:20:08.550 --> 00:20:09.989 start with Mary Wollstonecraft's 666 00:20:09.990 --> 00:20:11.819 Vindication of the Rights of Woman, 667 00:20:11.820 --> 00:20:14.189 which is commonly understood 668 00:20:14.190 --> 00:20:15.809 to be one of the founding texts of 669 00:20:15.810 --> 00:20:17.369 liberal feminism. 670 00:20:17.370 --> 00:20:19.589 And in Women's Studies 671 00:20:19.590 --> 00:20:21.479 academic circles, liberal feminism 672 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:22.709 doesn't have a very good name 673 00:20:22.710 --> 00:20:24.029 because they all want to be much 674 00:20:24.030 --> 00:20:25.829 further out on the left edge than 675 00:20:25.830 --> 00:20:26.999 that. 676 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.009 And so when you read her 677 00:20:29.010 --> 00:20:31.379 work, you see that 678 00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:33.089 what she's asking for is really very 679 00:20:33.090 --> 00:20:34.589 limited. She wants women to be 680 00:20:34.590 --> 00:20:36.569 considered to be human beings. 681 00:20:36.570 --> 00:20:37.649 She would like the world to 682 00:20:37.650 --> 00:20:39.299 understand that women are capable of 683 00:20:39.300 --> 00:20:40.300 reason and of virtue. 684 00:20:41.040 --> 00:20:42.689 She wants women to be better wives 685 00:20:42.690 --> 00:20:43.690 and mothers. 686 00:20:44.310 --> 00:20:45.592 But partway through 687 00:20:48.570 --> 00:20:50.099 the first-- it's around page 48, 688 00:20:50.100 --> 00:20:52.229 actually, she interrupts 689 00:20:52.230 --> 00:20:53.999 her train of thought, and she says, 690 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.859 "A wild wish has just flown from 691 00:20:55.860 --> 00:20:56.970 my heart to my head 692 00:20:58.260 --> 00:21:00.689 that the distinction of sex 693 00:21:00.690 --> 00:21:02.700 would be confounded in society." 694 00:21:03.750 --> 00:21:05.669 And then she just stops there and 695 00:21:05.670 --> 00:21:07.829 goes back to her train of thought. 696 00:21:07.830 --> 00:21:09.779 But that idea that 697 00:21:09.780 --> 00:21:11.549 the distinction of sex would be 698 00:21:11.550 --> 00:21:13.739 confounded in society, 699 00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:15.689 in my course, I draw a line from 700 00:21:15.690 --> 00:21:18.029 that to transgender phenomena 701 00:21:18.030 --> 00:21:20.129 now. And I like to see 702 00:21:20.130 --> 00:21:22.559 her as someone who-- she couldn't 703 00:21:22.560 --> 00:21:23.819 deal with this insight. 704 00:21:23.820 --> 00:21:25.289 It doesn't go anywhere in terms of 705 00:21:25.290 --> 00:21:27.419 the argument that she's conducting, 706 00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:29.399 but she had this wild wish. 707 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:31.349 And it's just a wild wish, but 708 00:21:31.350 --> 00:21:33.269 it's a wild wish that's been made 709 00:21:33.270 --> 00:21:35.669 true in more recent years. 710 00:21:35.670 --> 00:21:37.769 So I want students to see that 711 00:21:37.770 --> 00:21:39.869 ideas that seem completely new 712 00:21:39.870 --> 00:21:41.279 and cutting edge to them now 713 00:21:41.280 --> 00:21:42.929 actually have a history. 714 00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:44.219 And that someone who is thinking 715 00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:46.079 about making reasonable claims on 716 00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:47.939 behalf of women was at the same 717 00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:49.829 time thinking about just throwing 718 00:21:49.830 --> 00:21:51.359 out the whole sex gender system at 719 00:21:51.360 --> 00:21:52.499 the same time. 720 00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:54.389 And that sort of 721 00:21:54.390 --> 00:21:56.309 history of ideas, I think, is really 722 00:21:56.310 --> 00:21:57.719 important for students. 723 00:21:57.720 --> 00:21:59.639 And when feminist and queer 724 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.739 theory are taught most of the time 725 00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:03.419 now, it's a much more present 726 00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:05.039 focused class. 727 00:22:05.040 --> 00:22:06.629 When my colleagues teach the course, 728 00:22:06.630 --> 00:22:09.569 they start in around 1970, 729 00:22:09.570 --> 00:22:10.769 but I think it's really important to 730 00:22:10.770 --> 00:22:12.509 go back. And so that's something 731 00:22:12.510 --> 00:22:13.739 that I can contribute. 732 00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:15.569 As for my impact on a 733 00:22:15.570 --> 00:22:17.549 wider world, 734 00:22:17.550 --> 00:22:19.349 I feel at this point, it's going to 735 00:22:19.350 --> 00:22:20.819 be more through my students than 736 00:22:20.820 --> 00:22:22.859 through my own writing. 737 00:22:22.860 --> 00:22:24.239 I mean, that's what scholarly 738 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.949 writing is like. 739 00:22:25.950 --> 00:22:27.029 I mean, I'm not a public 740 00:22:27.030 --> 00:22:28.030 intellectual. I write scholarship 741 00:22:29.580 --> 00:22:30.569 that's going to be read by other 742 00:22:30.570 --> 00:22:32.789 scholars, and hopefully 743 00:22:32.790 --> 00:22:34.199 they will be affected by it, and 744 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:35.459 that will affect their teaching, and 745 00:22:35.460 --> 00:22:36.599 that will affect their students. 746 00:22:36.600 --> 00:22:37.600 It's pretty indirect. 747 00:22:39.220 --> 00:22:41.309 You said something before about 748 00:22:41.310 --> 00:22:42.509 when you were talking about kind of 749 00:22:42.510 --> 00:22:44.099 reading Mary Wollstonecraft and 750 00:22:44.100 --> 00:22:46.829 thinking about this 751 00:22:46.830 --> 00:22:48.509 crazy, at the time, thought that she 752 00:22:48.510 --> 00:22:49.510 had. Hearing 753 00:22:51.360 --> 00:22:52.360 you talk about 754 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:54.809 the science fiction writers and kind 755 00:22:54.810 --> 00:22:56.797 of coming up with ideas 756 00:22:56.798 --> 00:22:57.798 about if 757 00:22:59.580 --> 00:23:00.599 you want things to change, you have 758 00:23:00.600 --> 00:23:01.649 to have an idea of what you want 759 00:23:01.650 --> 00:23:02.819 that to look like. 760 00:23:02.820 --> 00:23:05.369 Is it fair to say that those writers 761 00:23:05.370 --> 00:23:07.379 helped prepare the ground 762 00:23:07.380 --> 00:23:09.239 for a thought that would have 763 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:10.949 been crazy to Mary Wollstonecraft to 764 00:23:10.950 --> 00:23:12.119 not be as crazy now? 765 00:23:12.120 --> 00:23:13.506 Is this the kind of preparation in the sense of what you're doing? 766 00:23:15.270 --> 00:23:16.709 Yes, yes, yes. 767 00:23:16.710 --> 00:23:18.179 Exactly. 768 00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:20.339 One of the founding texts 769 00:23:20.340 --> 00:23:22.889 of transgender 770 00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:25.019 as an intellectual movement, 771 00:23:25.020 --> 00:23:26.879 maybe also as a social 772 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:28.889 movement, is by Susan 773 00:23:28.890 --> 00:23:30.809 Stryker. She's a transgender 774 00:23:30.810 --> 00:23:32.999 professor and activist 775 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:35.189 who created two enormous anthologies 776 00:23:35.190 --> 00:23:37.139 of transgender studies for 777 00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:39.209 Rutledge and has founded 778 00:23:39.210 --> 00:23:40.559 a journal called the Transgender 779 00:23:40.560 --> 00:23:42.299 Studies Quarterly. 780 00:23:42.300 --> 00:23:43.908 She now has a Transgender Studies. 781 00:23:45.120 --> 00:23:46.109 I think it's an academic 782 00:23:46.110 --> 00:23:47.789 concentration where she teaches at 783 00:23:47.790 --> 00:23:49.889 the University of Arizona. 784 00:23:49.890 --> 00:23:51.389 She was allowed to hire a bunch of 785 00:23:51.390 --> 00:23:52.889 people to come and teach Transgender 786 00:23:52.890 --> 00:23:53.890 Studies. 787 00:23:54.420 --> 00:23:56.249 Her first article was 788 00:23:56.250 --> 00:23:58.259 from 1994, and 789 00:23:58.260 --> 00:24:00.089 it's called My Words to Victor 790 00:24:00.090 --> 00:24:02.009 Frankenstein in the 791 00:24:02.010 --> 00:24:03.010 Valley of Chamounix: Performing 792 00:24:05.100 --> 00:24:07.259 Transgender Rage. 793 00:24:07.260 --> 00:24:09.689 And she adopts the 794 00:24:09.690 --> 00:24:12.449 persona of Frankenstein's monster 795 00:24:12.450 --> 00:24:14.729 to speak as a transsexual. 796 00:24:14.730 --> 00:24:16.349 And you can see immediately how 797 00:24:16.350 --> 00:24:18.059 powerful that analogy would be. 798 00:24:19.860 --> 00:24:21.449 She, like the monster, has been 799 00:24:21.450 --> 00:24:23.669 taken apart and put back together, 800 00:24:23.670 --> 00:24:25.859 and the stitching shows 801 00:24:25.860 --> 00:24:27.659 she, like the monster, is considered 802 00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:29.339 a social outcast, a monstrous 803 00:24:29.340 --> 00:24:31.679 person. And she says, basically, 804 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.539 "I embrace my monstrosity, deal 805 00:24:33.540 --> 00:24:35.219 with it." And it's a very powerful 806 00:24:35.220 --> 00:24:37.049 piece of writing. 807 00:24:37.050 --> 00:24:38.159 I always thought she was a 808 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:39.239 literature professor because she 809 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:40.199 wrote this great piece about 810 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:41.369 Frankenstein. It turns out she's a 811 00:24:41.370 --> 00:24:42.370 historian, but 812 00:24:43.290 --> 00:24:46.379 she made use of another, 813 00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:48.299 in that case, dystopian work 814 00:24:48.300 --> 00:24:50.189 of-- I would consider Frankenstein 815 00:24:50.190 --> 00:24:51.749 to be a work of feminist fiction. 816 00:24:51.750 --> 00:24:52.798 I've written about it as that. 817 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:54.659 She was able to use 818 00:24:54.660 --> 00:24:55.919 that work of fiction as a very 819 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.259 powerful motor for her own claims. 820 00:24:59.850 --> 00:25:01.739 So I do think that 821 00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:03.719 fiction helps to push 822 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:05.130 the political envelope. 823 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:08.819 We've been talking with Margaret 824 00:25:08.820 --> 00:25:10.409 Homans, professor of English and 825 00:25:10.410 --> 00:25:12.119 Women's, Gender, and Sexuality 826 00:25:12.120 --> 00:25:14.409 Studies at Yale University. 827 00:25:14.410 --> 00:25:15.999 Homans visited Pitt as part of the 828 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.559 Year of the Humanities to take part 829 00:25:17.560 --> 00:25:19.119 in a panel titled Adoption and 830 00:25:19.120 --> 00:25:20.769 Narratives of the Human. 831 00:25:20.770 --> 00:25:22.059 The panel featured a number of 832 00:25:22.060 --> 00:25:23.289 different perspectives on 833 00:25:23.290 --> 00:25:25.329 transnational adoption, including 834 00:25:25.330 --> 00:25:27.399 that of SooJin Pate, whose book From 835 00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:29.319 Orphan to Adoptee: U.S. 836 00:25:29.320 --> 00:25:31.299 Empire and Genealogies of Korean 837 00:25:31.300 --> 00:25:33.489 Adoption argues that the practice 838 00:25:33.490 --> 00:25:35.049 of adopting Korean children was an 839 00:25:35.050 --> 00:25:36.759 essential part of expanding American 840 00:25:36.760 --> 00:25:39.279 empire during the Cold War. 841 00:25:39.280 --> 00:25:40.719 Professor Homans first published on 842 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.699 adoption in 2002 in 843 00:25:42.700 --> 00:25:44.439 a moving essay titled Adoption and 844 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.009 Essentialism. 845 00:25:46.010 --> 00:25:47.479 In the essay, Professor Homans 846 00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:49.489 reflects on her experiences adopting 847 00:25:49.490 --> 00:25:52.129 a daughter from China in 1999 848 00:25:52.130 --> 00:25:53.479 and on what these experiences 849 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:55.249 revealed about our cultures, beliefs 850 00:25:55.250 --> 00:25:57.079 about race, family, and what 851 00:25:57.080 --> 00:25:58.609 it means to be human. 852 00:25:58.610 --> 00:26:00.409 I asked her about this essay and how 853 00:26:00.410 --> 00:26:01.999 her experience with transnational 854 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:03.679 adoption influenced her work as a 855 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:04.789 scholar. 856 00:26:04.790 --> 00:26:06.949 The reason that I got excited about 857 00:26:06.950 --> 00:26:08.809 thinking about adoption-- well, of 858 00:26:08.810 --> 00:26:10.699 course, I adopted a daughter from 859 00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:13.039 China in the year 1999, 860 00:26:13.040 --> 00:26:14.959 so I probably 861 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:16.069 would not have gotten interested in 862 00:26:16.070 --> 00:26:17.779 the subject at all if it weren't for 863 00:26:17.780 --> 00:26:19.639 that. But I 864 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:21.499 began to realize this was a really 865 00:26:21.500 --> 00:26:22.999 interesting subject to think about 866 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:25.099 in connection with my own interest 867 00:26:25.100 --> 00:26:27.049 as a feminist scholar and also 868 00:26:27.050 --> 00:26:28.759 as a literary scholar. 869 00:26:28.760 --> 00:26:30.229 Because adoption raises all kinds of 870 00:26:30.230 --> 00:26:31.879 questions about what it is to be a 871 00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:33.889 human being, which feminism 872 00:26:33.890 --> 00:26:35.719 is also interested in. 873 00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:37.099 It also raises really interesting 874 00:26:37.100 --> 00:26:39.289 questions about representation. 875 00:26:39.290 --> 00:26:40.579 What does it mean to say the word 876 00:26:40.580 --> 00:26:42.739 family and mean something 877 00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:44.629 other than a biologically connected 878 00:26:44.630 --> 00:26:46.009 nuclear family? 879 00:26:46.010 --> 00:26:48.979 And so, right away, 880 00:26:48.980 --> 00:26:50.899 thinking about adoption 881 00:26:50.900 --> 00:26:52.609 fit into things that I was already 882 00:26:52.610 --> 00:26:54.229 interested in thinking about. 883 00:26:54.230 --> 00:26:56.449 And it fed specifically 884 00:26:56.450 --> 00:26:58.489 into a Gender Studies 885 00:26:58.490 --> 00:27:00.649 feminist perspective, in part 886 00:27:00.650 --> 00:27:02.779 because of the way 887 00:27:02.780 --> 00:27:05.509 adoption impacts 888 00:27:05.510 --> 00:27:07.909 gendered beings differently. 889 00:27:07.910 --> 00:27:09.799 So I later wrote a piece 890 00:27:09.800 --> 00:27:11.359 that then got incorporated in the 891 00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:13.309 book about birth mothers 892 00:27:13.310 --> 00:27:15.319 and how the requirement 893 00:27:15.320 --> 00:27:17.389 that they disappear, whether 894 00:27:17.390 --> 00:27:18.889 or not they actually have 895 00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:19.890 disappeared, 896 00:27:21.080 --> 00:27:22.246 is a requirement for adoption. 897 00:27:22.247 --> 00:27:24.179 And how unjust 898 00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:26.209 that is, but also 899 00:27:26.210 --> 00:27:27.979 how difficult it makes it for birth 900 00:27:27.980 --> 00:27:30.199 mothers actually to speak. 901 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:32.329 So that made a connection 902 00:27:32.330 --> 00:27:34.189 between adoption as a 903 00:27:34.190 --> 00:27:36.049 subject and my literary interest 904 00:27:36.050 --> 00:27:37.549 as a feminist scholar because I 905 00:27:37.550 --> 00:27:39.349 started out writing about how 906 00:27:39.350 --> 00:27:41.299 difficult it was for women poets 907 00:27:41.300 --> 00:27:43.159 to speak within 908 00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:44.372 the genre of the romantic lyric - 909 00:27:44.373 --> 00:27:46.249 how their voices were 910 00:27:46.250 --> 00:27:47.869 silenced and excluded because they 911 00:27:47.870 --> 00:27:49.309 were supposed to represent silent 912 00:27:49.310 --> 00:27:50.629 nature rather than speaking 913 00:27:50.630 --> 00:27:51.649 subjectely. 914 00:27:51.650 --> 00:27:53.059 And it seemed as though I was seeing 915 00:27:53.060 --> 00:27:54.739 the same thing all over again with 916 00:27:54.740 --> 00:27:56.209 the birth mothers. 917 00:27:56.210 --> 00:27:57.799 So that was a very powerful 918 00:27:57.800 --> 00:27:58.879 connection for me. 919 00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:00.709 You mentioned in some of 920 00:28:00.710 --> 00:28:02.359 your writing on adoption that you 921 00:28:02.360 --> 00:28:04.339 feel as though in 922 00:28:04.340 --> 00:28:06.349 the process of-- in 923 00:28:06.350 --> 00:28:08.479 the process, one needs to go through 924 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:09.859 in order to adopt. 925 00:28:09.860 --> 00:28:12.019 And there's a kind of essentialism 926 00:28:12.020 --> 00:28:13.879 that exists there, 927 00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:15.799 even when in other parts of 928 00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:18.079 the world and in American society, 929 00:28:18.080 --> 00:28:19.909 is that we've kind of moved a bit 930 00:28:19.910 --> 00:28:22.069 beyond that, but it remains there. 931 00:28:22.070 --> 00:28:24.169 Yes. And it is apparently still 932 00:28:24.170 --> 00:28:26.329 the case that children 933 00:28:26.330 --> 00:28:28.189 who are available for adoption 934 00:28:28.190 --> 00:28:30.019 through state and also 935 00:28:30.020 --> 00:28:32.569 private agencies, the fees 936 00:28:32.570 --> 00:28:34.879 associated with adopting them 937 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:36.289 are different depending on the race 938 00:28:36.290 --> 00:28:37.399 of the child. 939 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:39.769 And this, to me, is just 940 00:28:39.770 --> 00:28:41.689 astounding that people 941 00:28:41.690 --> 00:28:42.690 are still 942 00:28:44.900 --> 00:28:46.759 organizing their sense of family 943 00:28:46.760 --> 00:28:47.760 around 944 00:28:49.190 --> 00:28:50.269 racial identity. 945 00:28:50.270 --> 00:28:52.399 And so 946 00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:54.769 it was really eye-opening, to me, 947 00:28:54.770 --> 00:28:56.599 to see the-- 948 00:28:56.600 --> 00:28:58.699 I would call it racism of the entire 949 00:28:58.700 --> 00:29:00.619 adoption world, even 950 00:29:00.620 --> 00:29:02.629 though it wears a very benign 951 00:29:02.630 --> 00:29:03.799 face in many contexts. 952 00:29:03.800 --> 00:29:05.869 People would say it's better 953 00:29:05.870 --> 00:29:07.759 for Black children 954 00:29:07.760 --> 00:29:09.289 to be raised by Black families. 955 00:29:09.290 --> 00:29:11.719 It's better for Chinese children 956 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:13.459 not to be raised in White families 957 00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:14.509 and so on. 958 00:29:14.510 --> 00:29:16.159 But I would say that that's true 959 00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:17.689 only because we still live in a 960 00:29:17.690 --> 00:29:18.889 racist society. 961 00:29:18.890 --> 00:29:21.199 It's not true because races 962 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.909 have some deep need to live 963 00:29:22.910 --> 00:29:24.469 together. It's only because of the 964 00:29:24.470 --> 00:29:26.539 racism surrounding all of that. 965 00:29:26.540 --> 00:29:28.489 And I found it to be 966 00:29:28.490 --> 00:29:30.109 shocking. And I still find it to be 967 00:29:30.110 --> 00:29:32.659 shocking how racialist 968 00:29:32.660 --> 00:29:34.459 the world of adoption exposes our 969 00:29:34.460 --> 00:29:36.499 society to be. 970 00:29:36.500 --> 00:29:38.329 But that's just to say that when you 971 00:29:38.330 --> 00:29:40.099 say we've moved beyond this, we 972 00:29:40.100 --> 00:29:41.179 actually haven't. 973 00:29:41.180 --> 00:29:43.099 We've just pretended to. 974 00:29:43.100 --> 00:29:45.049 And so the idea of 975 00:29:45.050 --> 00:29:47.390 multiculturalism in the 1990s, 976 00:29:48.410 --> 00:29:49.879 I'm very taken by Walter Benn 977 00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:52.579 Michaels's argument in our America 978 00:29:52.580 --> 00:29:54.649 that multiculturalism, which looks 979 00:29:54.650 --> 00:29:56.449 so progressive and it seems to be 980 00:29:56.450 --> 00:29:58.429 about kind of a new iteration 981 00:29:58.430 --> 00:29:59.719 of the American melting pot. 982 00:30:00.800 --> 00:30:02.959 He traces its social 983 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:04.639 history back to the progressive era 984 00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:07.399 and the intense racisms around 985 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:08.899 closing down immigration and 986 00:30:08.900 --> 00:30:11.419 creating immigration quotas 987 00:30:11.420 --> 00:30:13.279 so that white people could get into 988 00:30:13.280 --> 00:30:14.929 the country so much more easily than 989 00:30:14.930 --> 00:30:16.220 people with brown skin. 990 00:30:17.630 --> 00:30:19.459 So I'm very 991 00:30:19.460 --> 00:30:21.169 suspicious of the idea that we've 992 00:30:21.170 --> 00:30:23.629 gotten beyond racialism 993 00:30:23.630 --> 00:30:24.630 and racism. 994 00:30:26.210 --> 00:30:27.199 Some of the things that you talk 995 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:28.521 about in the beginning of The 996 00:30:28.522 --> 00:30:30.439 Imprint of Another Life is you talk 997 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:31.440 a bit about how 998 00:30:33.220 --> 00:30:35.059 about the impassioned 999 00:30:35.060 --> 00:30:36.919 debates that have sprung 1000 00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:38.779 up on 1001 00:30:38.780 --> 00:30:40.009 scholarly conferences on adoption 1002 00:30:40.010 --> 00:30:41.029 and things like that. 1003 00:30:41.030 --> 00:30:42.949 I wonder if your work in the field 1004 00:30:42.950 --> 00:30:44.899 has-- what kind of reactions 1005 00:30:44.900 --> 00:30:46.789 it has faced with 1006 00:30:46.790 --> 00:30:48.519 negative or positive. Or have you 1007 00:30:48.520 --> 00:30:50.109 any experience being involved in 1008 00:30:50.110 --> 00:30:51.249 some of those debates? 1009 00:30:51.250 --> 00:30:52.749 It seems like a topic that can 1010 00:30:52.750 --> 00:30:53.649 create them quite easily. 1011 00:30:53.650 --> 00:30:54.579 Yes. Yes. 1012 00:30:54.580 --> 00:30:55.779 That's quite true. 1013 00:30:55.780 --> 00:30:57.639 And I'm also aware that as 1014 00:30:57.640 --> 00:30:59.529 an adoptive parent, I 1015 00:30:59.530 --> 00:31:01.359 occupy a position 1016 00:31:01.360 --> 00:31:03.309 of the least authority in the 1017 00:31:03.310 --> 00:31:04.959 adoption world. 1018 00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:07.629 And so I try to keep a lid on it 1019 00:31:07.630 --> 00:31:09.909 because I do think that adoptees 1020 00:31:09.910 --> 00:31:11.889 and birth parents have 1021 00:31:11.890 --> 00:31:13.659 more experiential authority for 1022 00:31:13.660 --> 00:31:15.579 talking about adoption than I do. 1023 00:31:15.580 --> 00:31:17.559 And adoptive parents' 1024 00:31:17.560 --> 00:31:19.419 views are always going to skew in 1025 00:31:19.420 --> 00:31:21.309 the direction of 1026 00:31:21.310 --> 00:31:23.979 believing that adoption is okay 1027 00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:25.419 because we were the ones who chose 1028 00:31:25.420 --> 00:31:26.649 to do it. 1029 00:31:26.650 --> 00:31:28.749 So I have to take that into account 1030 00:31:28.750 --> 00:31:30.819 when I find myself 1031 00:31:30.820 --> 00:31:32.379 merging into some kind of 1032 00:31:32.380 --> 00:31:34.269 controversy. 1033 00:31:34.270 --> 00:31:36.309 But I do tend to emphasize 1034 00:31:36.310 --> 00:31:37.089 the positive. 1035 00:31:37.090 --> 00:31:38.919 My paper was about 1036 00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:40.689 the positive work that that young 1037 00:31:40.690 --> 00:31:42.759 woman's work of fiction-making 1038 00:31:42.760 --> 00:31:43.760 could do for her. 1039 00:31:45.250 --> 00:31:46.250 But someone like SooJin Pate, 1040 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:49.809 I think she and I would both see 1041 00:31:49.810 --> 00:31:51.669 ourselves as working 1042 00:31:51.670 --> 00:31:53.559 within a field called 1043 00:31:53.560 --> 00:31:55.449 Critical Adoption Studies. 1044 00:31:55.450 --> 00:31:57.159 But for her, that means something 1045 00:31:57.160 --> 00:31:58.160 very different. 1046 00:31:59.290 --> 00:32:01.720 She is really going for 1047 00:32:03.040 --> 00:32:04.929 the corrupt political 1048 00:32:04.930 --> 00:32:07.119 and historical origins in 1049 00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:09.339 the case of her scholarship adoption 1050 00:32:09.340 --> 00:32:10.660 from Korea. 1051 00:32:11.860 --> 00:32:14.379 She is 1052 00:32:14.380 --> 00:32:16.209 very sympathetic to 1053 00:32:16.210 --> 00:32:18.249 the argument that transnational 1054 00:32:18.250 --> 00:32:20.829 adoption should 1055 00:32:20.830 --> 00:32:22.809 never have happened, 1056 00:32:22.810 --> 00:32:24.329 should be stopped now. 1057 00:32:25.630 --> 00:32:27.819 And I would say I'm 1058 00:32:27.820 --> 00:32:30.939 much more neutral on that subject. 1059 00:32:30.940 --> 00:32:32.859 That is to say, from my own 1060 00:32:32.860 --> 00:32:34.779 personal life, I can't feel 1061 00:32:34.780 --> 00:32:36.999 as impassioned about it as she does, 1062 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:38.889 and I don't see only the evils 1063 00:32:38.890 --> 00:32:39.890 of it. 1064 00:32:40.510 --> 00:32:41.979 But I have to tread carefully 1065 00:32:41.980 --> 00:32:43.959 because I have such 1066 00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:45.969 respect for 1067 00:32:45.970 --> 00:32:48.069 SooJin Pate in particular and 1068 00:32:48.070 --> 00:32:49.749 for the other scholars like her who 1069 00:32:49.750 --> 00:32:51.669 are trying to turn their very 1070 00:32:51.670 --> 00:32:54.399 difficult life experiences into 1071 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:55.959 really rich and significant 1072 00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:56.960 intellectual work. 1073 00:32:59.110 --> 00:33:00.579 When you used to talk about your 1074 00:33:00.580 --> 00:33:02.079 work tending to emphasize the 1075 00:33:02.080 --> 00:33:04.419 positive, you end 1076 00:33:04.420 --> 00:33:06.459 The Imprint of Another Life 1077 00:33:06.460 --> 00:33:07.419 by writing about Jeanette 1078 00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:08.799 Winterson's Why Be Happy When You 1079 00:33:08.800 --> 00:33:10.149 Could Be Normal. And this, to me, 1080 00:33:10.150 --> 00:33:12.219 seems like a book-- 1081 00:33:12.220 --> 00:33:14.289 you talk about it as a book 1082 00:33:14.290 --> 00:33:15.290 that embodies 1083 00:33:16.270 --> 00:33:18.189 kind of the positive that you see in 1084 00:33:18.190 --> 00:33:19.450 this. But I didn't see it. 1085 00:33:20.470 --> 00:33:22.569 It's not only a positive story. 1086 00:33:22.570 --> 00:33:22.959 There's more to it. 1087 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:24.189 It's a horrendous-- it's a 1088 00:33:24.190 --> 00:33:25.029 horrendous story. 1089 00:33:25.030 --> 00:33:26.319 Yeah. Can you talk a little bit 1090 00:33:26.320 --> 00:33:27.669 about why that book-- maybe I think 1091 00:33:27.670 --> 00:33:28.989 talking about that book, you can 1092 00:33:28.990 --> 00:33:30.939 talk a little bit about how the 1093 00:33:30.940 --> 00:33:32.769 positive for you in adoption is 1094 00:33:32.770 --> 00:33:33.939 a difficult positive. 1095 00:33:33.940 --> 00:33:36.369 Yes. Well, at the beginning, 1096 00:33:36.370 --> 00:33:37.749 I mean, she gave me the phrase that 1097 00:33:37.750 --> 00:33:40.179 became the title of my book. 1098 00:33:40.180 --> 00:33:42.039 At the beginning, she talks about 1099 00:33:42.040 --> 00:33:43.839 the way adoption, and other people 1100 00:33:43.840 --> 00:33:45.009 talk about this too, the way 1101 00:33:45.010 --> 00:33:47.139 adoption causes you 1102 00:33:47.140 --> 00:33:49.029 to have to invent a life 1103 00:33:49.030 --> 00:33:49.899 for yourself. 1104 00:33:49.900 --> 00:33:52.509 And even Betty Jean Lifton, 1105 00:33:52.510 --> 00:33:55.179 a great adoption activist 1106 00:33:55.180 --> 00:33:57.519 who passed away a few years ago but 1107 00:33:57.520 --> 00:33:59.529 was one of the founders of the whole 1108 00:33:59.530 --> 00:34:01.389 idea of adoptee rights - the 1109 00:34:01.390 --> 00:34:02.889 idea that adoptees should be able to 1110 00:34:02.890 --> 00:34:03.909 find their original birth 1111 00:34:03.910 --> 00:34:05.229 certificates. 1112 00:34:05.230 --> 00:34:06.789 She was a very powerful writer who 1113 00:34:06.790 --> 00:34:08.619 wrote about 1114 00:34:08.620 --> 00:34:10.238 what it's like to search and why 1115 00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:11.559 it's important to search, why she 1116 00:34:11.560 --> 00:34:12.908 wanted to search for her birth 1117 00:34:12.909 --> 00:34:14.289 parents, what happens when you do 1118 00:34:14.290 --> 00:34:15.290 so. 1119 00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:19.809 She even says in one of her books, 1120 00:34:19.810 --> 00:34:21.249 "Adoption allowed me to invent 1121 00:34:21.250 --> 00:34:23.319 myself." And 1122 00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:24.849 she's not happy that she was 1123 00:34:24.850 --> 00:34:25.658 adopted. 1124 00:34:25.659 --> 00:34:27.158 But still, that's a very powerful 1125 00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:28.159 claim. 1126 00:34:28.900 --> 00:34:30.999 And Jeanette Winterson says the same 1127 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:32.829 thing, even though 1128 00:34:32.830 --> 00:34:34.779 her story of being adopted into that 1129 00:34:34.780 --> 00:34:36.609 particular family 1130 00:34:36.610 --> 00:34:37.509 is so horrendous. 1131 00:34:37.510 --> 00:34:39.009 They were so cruel to her. 1132 00:34:39.010 --> 00:34:40.869 They were so cruel to her 1133 00:34:40.870 --> 00:34:42.849 because she was an intellectual 1134 00:34:42.850 --> 00:34:44.109 from a very early age. 1135 00:34:44.110 --> 00:34:46.329 She was obviously a bookworm 1136 00:34:46.330 --> 00:34:49.178 and a lover of words and creativity. 1137 00:34:49.179 --> 00:34:50.559 And because she was a lesbian, they 1138 00:34:50.560 --> 00:34:51.459 couldn't bear that as a 1139 00:34:51.460 --> 00:34:52.658 fundamentalist family. 1140 00:34:52.659 --> 00:34:54.698 So she had a terrible time growing 1141 00:34:54.699 --> 00:34:56.738 up. And she had a terrible 1142 00:34:56.739 --> 00:34:58.749 time also later in life when she 1143 00:34:58.750 --> 00:35:00.549 took the decision to search for her 1144 00:35:00.550 --> 00:35:01.550 birth mother. 1145 00:35:02.470 --> 00:35:04.779 Nonetheless, the net 1146 00:35:04.780 --> 00:35:06.729 gain that you get from reading 1147 00:35:06.730 --> 00:35:08.589 that book is that 1148 00:35:08.590 --> 00:35:10.284 her life created her. 1149 00:35:10.285 --> 00:35:12.159 And what an 1150 00:35:12.160 --> 00:35:13.599 impoverished place the world would 1151 00:35:13.600 --> 00:35:15.099 be if Jeanette Winterson hadn't 1152 00:35:15.100 --> 00:35:16.570 become who she is. 1153 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:19.959 And I gather she's just written 1154 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:22.269 a novel based on Shakespeare's 1155 00:35:22.270 --> 00:35:24.099 The Winter's Tale for 1156 00:35:24.100 --> 00:35:26.349 a series of novels 1157 00:35:26.350 --> 00:35:27.497 based on Shakespeare plays. 1158 00:35:27.498 --> 00:35:28.498 And 1159 00:35:29.590 --> 00:35:30.519 in the article in The New York 1160 00:35:30.520 --> 00:35:32.649 Times, the writer wondered 1161 00:35:32.650 --> 00:35:34.959 why had she chosen The Winter's Tale 1162 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:36.249 to rewrite when she could have 1163 00:35:36.250 --> 00:35:38.859 chosen Hamlet or King Lear. 1164 00:35:38.860 --> 00:35:40.449 But to people who know her as an 1165 00:35:40.450 --> 00:35:42.279 adoption memoirist, 1166 00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:43.749 the choice was perfectly obvious. 1167 00:35:43.750 --> 00:35:45.809 Her novel will be called The Lost 1168 00:35:45.810 --> 00:35:47.789 Child, and The Winter's Tale 1169 00:35:47.790 --> 00:35:49.319 is an adoption story. 1170 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:51.269 So here she is 1171 00:35:51.270 --> 00:35:53.669 making another fictional version 1172 00:35:53.670 --> 00:35:56.369 of an adoption story that will 1173 00:35:56.370 --> 00:35:58.349 help to reveal the terrible 1174 00:35:58.350 --> 00:36:00.209 pains and losses, but also the gains 1175 00:36:00.210 --> 00:36:02.249 of an adoption story. 1176 00:36:02.250 --> 00:36:04.079 So I take 1177 00:36:04.080 --> 00:36:05.909 her as a kind of prime 1178 00:36:05.910 --> 00:36:08.219 example of the sorrow 1179 00:36:08.220 --> 00:36:10.259 and also the tremendous creativity 1180 00:36:10.260 --> 00:36:12.239 that can come from 1181 00:36:12.240 --> 00:36:13.240 an adoption story. 1182 00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:16.860 The last thing 1183 00:36:18.090 --> 00:36:19.979 to mention here about that book 1184 00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:21.119 is that it seems like you've talked 1185 00:36:21.120 --> 00:36:23.039 about-- just now 1186 00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:24.299 you're mentioning Jeanette Winterson 1187 00:36:24.300 --> 00:36:26.069 in this book kind of writing herself 1188 00:36:26.070 --> 00:36:27.269 and creating her own life. 1189 00:36:29.820 --> 00:36:30.599 You end The Imprint of Another Life 1190 00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:32.429 talking about the change 1191 00:36:32.430 --> 00:36:34.859 that writing the book had for you. 1192 00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:36.719 And you started out wanting to 1193 00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:38.369 counter some negative thoughts that 1194 00:36:38.370 --> 00:36:40.259 you had. Not that you had, 1195 00:36:40.260 --> 00:36:41.084 that you've been presented with about 1196 00:36:41.085 --> 00:36:42.085 adoption. 1197 00:36:43.080 --> 00:36:44.669 And then, in the process of writing 1198 00:36:44.670 --> 00:36:46.229 the book, you too changed. 1199 00:36:46.230 --> 00:36:48.449 I'm thinking about our broad project 1200 00:36:48.450 --> 00:36:49.649 here of the Year of the Humanities 1201 00:36:49.650 --> 00:36:50.759 and things like that. And I wonder 1202 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:52.260 if it's fair to say that 1203 00:36:53.430 --> 00:36:55.649 your engagement with this scholarly 1204 00:36:55.650 --> 00:36:57.569 work is something that brought you 1205 00:36:57.570 --> 00:36:58.829 to a different point when you 1206 00:36:58.830 --> 00:37:00.509 finished it. And if that's something 1207 00:37:00.510 --> 00:37:01.709 we can say broadly about kind of 1208 00:37:01.710 --> 00:37:02.429 humanistic work. 1209 00:37:02.430 --> 00:37:05.159 Yeah, that's such a nice question. 1210 00:37:05.160 --> 00:37:06.449 Doing the research for the book 1211 00:37:06.450 --> 00:37:08.309 definitely made me take much more 1212 00:37:08.310 --> 00:37:10.379 seriously the perspectives of birth 1213 00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:13.049 parents and of adoptees, 1214 00:37:13.050 --> 00:37:15.239 and that is the work that literature 1215 00:37:15.240 --> 00:37:16.409 should be doing. 1216 00:37:16.410 --> 00:37:18.599 That's the most fundamental work, 1217 00:37:18.600 --> 00:37:20.759 certainly, of fiction is to immerse 1218 00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:22.229 you in somebody else's point of 1219 00:37:22.230 --> 00:37:24.359 view, someone else's life world. 1220 00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:26.309 And George Eliot made 1221 00:37:26.310 --> 00:37:27.918 the case for fiction that way 150 1222 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:30.329 years ago. 1223 00:37:30.330 --> 00:37:32.039 Reading fiction extends your 1224 00:37:32.040 --> 00:37:34.319 sympathies and allows us to imagine 1225 00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:36.209 what the lives of people who 1226 00:37:36.210 --> 00:37:38.699 we might initially dismiss 1227 00:37:38.700 --> 00:37:40.559 feel like from the inside. 1228 00:37:40.560 --> 00:37:42.599 And that was certainly what writing 1229 00:37:42.600 --> 00:37:44.459 the book did for me. 1230 00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:46.289 And, of course, I hope it does that 1231 00:37:46.290 --> 00:37:47.159 for readers. 1232 00:37:47.160 --> 00:37:48.479 But writing the book was a great 1233 00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:49.679 pleasure for that reason. 1234 00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:52.760 And 1235 00:37:53.580 --> 00:37:54.779 that's it for this installment of 1236 00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:55.859 the University of Pittsburgh 1237 00:37:55.860 --> 00:37:57.449 Humanities podcast. 1238 00:37:57.450 --> 00:37:59.219 Our guest was Margaret Homans, whose 1239 00:37:59.220 --> 00:38:00.899 latest book is The Imprint of 1240 00:38:00.900 --> 00:38:02.999 Another Life: Adoption Narratives 1241 00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.799 and Human Possibility, published by 1242 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.139 the University of Michigan Press. 1243 00:38:07.140 --> 00:38:08.009 We would like to thank the 1244 00:38:08.010 --> 00:38:09.719 University of Pittsburgh's Office of 1245 00:38:09.720 --> 00:38:11.279 the Provost for their support of the 1246 00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:12.659 Year of the Humanities. 1247 00:38:12.660 --> 00:38:14.099 Our next podcast will feature 1248 00:38:14.100 --> 00:38:15.569 Anthony Bogues, professor of 1249 00:38:15.570 --> 00:38:17.549 Humanities and Critical Theory and 1250 00:38:17.550 --> 00:38:19.259 director of the Center for the Study 1251 00:38:19.260 --> 00:38:20.969 of Slavery and Justice at Brown 1252 00:38:20.970 --> 00:38:22.379 University. 1253 00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:23.639 For more information on the Year of 1254 00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:24.959 the Humanities and to see our 1255 00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:26.759 upcoming events, visit our website 1256 00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:27.760 at www.humanities.pitt.edu.
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