WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.890 --> 00:00:03.149 Hello and welcome to the second 2 00:00:03.150 --> 00:00:04.469 installment of the University of 3 00:00:04.470 --> 00:00:06.389 Pittsburgh Humanities podcast, 4 00:00:06.390 --> 00:00:07.889 a series devoted to exploring the 5 00:00:07.890 --> 00:00:09.659 humanities, their intersections with 6 00:00:09.660 --> 00:00:11.219 other disciplines, and their value 7 00:00:11.220 --> 00:00:12.119 in the public world. 8 00:00:12.120 --> 00:00:13.120 I'm Dan Kubis. My 9 00:00:15.840 --> 00:00:17.729 guest today is Abdellah Taїa, a 10 00:00:17.730 --> 00:00:19.379 Moroccan writer and filmmaker based 11 00:00:19.380 --> 00:00:20.549 in Paris. 12 00:00:20.550 --> 00:00:22.529 This might sound naive, but I do 13 00:00:22.530 --> 00:00:24.359 think that the existence of a book-- 14 00:00:24.360 --> 00:00:26.459 the existence is something 15 00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:28.709 that already could 16 00:00:28.710 --> 00:00:31.169 make some changes happen. 17 00:00:31.170 --> 00:00:32.819 That's what I think. 18 00:00:32.820 --> 00:00:35.069 Otherwise, I will not be going 19 00:00:35.070 --> 00:00:37.679 through this crazy process 20 00:00:37.680 --> 00:00:39.419 of writing a book. 21 00:00:39.420 --> 00:00:41.309 Since 1999, Taїa has written 22 00:00:41.310 --> 00:00:42.899 a number of novels, stories, and 23 00:00:42.900 --> 00:00:44.399 essays that have contributed to an 24 00:00:44.400 --> 00:00:45.795 ongoing conversation between Arab 25 00:00:45.796 --> 00:00:48.119 Muslims and the West. 26 00:00:48.120 --> 00:00:49.469 Many of his works draw on his 27 00:00:49.470 --> 00:00:51.059 experience growing up in the small 28 00:00:51.060 --> 00:00:53.189 Moroccan village of Salé, including 29 00:00:53.190 --> 00:00:55.019 living in a three-room house with 30 00:00:55.020 --> 00:00:57.149 a single room for him, his mother, 31 00:00:57.150 --> 00:00:58.589 his six sisters, and his younger 32 00:00:58.590 --> 00:00:59.669 brother. 33 00:00:59.670 --> 00:01:01.289 This is the room he says from which 34 00:01:01.290 --> 00:01:03.179 his writing was born. 35 00:01:03.180 --> 00:01:05.098 In 2006, Taїa openly 36 00:01:05.099 --> 00:01:06.689 discussed his homosexuality for the 37 00:01:06.690 --> 00:01:08.339 first time in an interview in the 38 00:01:08.340 --> 00:01:09.340 French magazine Tel Quel. For 39 00:01:10.230 --> 00:01:12.359 Taїa, coming out caused rifts 40 00:01:12.360 --> 00:01:14.429 in his family that have yet to heal. 41 00:01:14.430 --> 00:01:15.959 It also stirred up controversy in 42 00:01:15.960 --> 00:01:17.159 Moroccan society, where 43 00:01:17.160 --> 00:01:19.679 homosexuality remains illegal. 44 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:21.029 In other quarters, he was hailed as 45 00:01:21.030 --> 00:01:22.349 a hero and as someone with the 46 00:01:22.350 --> 00:01:23.999 courage to speak about his identity 47 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:26.069 in difficult circumstances. 48 00:01:26.070 --> 00:01:28.079 Then, as now, Taїa sees 49 00:01:28.080 --> 00:01:29.819 his achievement not only in terms of 50 00:01:29.820 --> 00:01:31.769 personal freedom but also in terms 51 00:01:31.770 --> 00:01:33.359 of the influence of his works on 52 00:01:33.360 --> 00:01:35.729 broader social change in Morocco 53 00:01:35.730 --> 00:01:36.730 and beyond. 54 00:01:37.410 --> 00:01:39.329 In 2013, Abdellah Taїa 55 00:01:39.330 --> 00:01:41.039 directed the film adaptation of one 56 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:43.589 of his early novels, Salvation Army. 57 00:01:43.590 --> 00:01:45.089 This film gave the Arab World its 58 00:01:45.090 --> 00:01:47.819 first onscreen gay protagonist. 59 00:01:47.820 --> 00:01:48.869 For Taїa, the film was the 60 00:01:48.870 --> 00:01:50.489 culmination of a lifelong dream to 61 00:01:50.490 --> 00:01:52.379 be a filmmaker, a dream that started 62 00:01:52.380 --> 00:01:53.759 with his watching Egyptian films 63 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:55.739 with his family in Morocco. 64 00:01:55.740 --> 00:01:57.239 I began by asking him about this 65 00:01:57.240 --> 00:01:58.949 dream and about the lengths to which 66 00:01:58.950 --> 00:02:00.419 he has gone to pursue it throughout 67 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:01.420 his life. 68 00:02:05.650 --> 00:02:07.569 Well, from the beginning, the 69 00:02:07.570 --> 00:02:09.429 first desire was 70 00:02:09.430 --> 00:02:10.798 in me to become a filmmaker. 71 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:13.749 So in order to realize 72 00:02:13.750 --> 00:02:15.669 that dream, I thought I had to go 73 00:02:15.670 --> 00:02:16.539 to Paris. 74 00:02:16.540 --> 00:02:17.649 Because there is this famous 75 00:02:17.650 --> 00:02:19.479 school-- famous cinema 76 00:02:19.480 --> 00:02:20.480 school called La Fémis. 77 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:23.229 And one day, I realized that my 78 00:02:23.230 --> 00:02:24.729 French is not good, so I had to 79 00:02:24.730 --> 00:02:25.929 master it. 80 00:02:25.930 --> 00:02:27.309 And I thought, "How I'm going to do 81 00:02:27.310 --> 00:02:29.289 this? I am living in a poor 82 00:02:29.290 --> 00:02:31.389 family, and no one's really mastered 83 00:02:31.390 --> 00:02:33.519 French language around me." So 84 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:35.349 I thought that after high school, 85 00:02:35.350 --> 00:02:36.350 I should study 86 00:02:37.330 --> 00:02:39.879 French language and literature 87 00:02:39.880 --> 00:02:41.919 in the University of Rabat, 88 00:02:41.920 --> 00:02:42.969 the capital of Morocco. 89 00:02:42.970 --> 00:02:44.319 And that's what I did. 90 00:02:44.320 --> 00:02:46.059 But what happened is, when I arrived 91 00:02:46.060 --> 00:02:47.899 at the University of Rabat, I 92 00:02:47.900 --> 00:02:49.779 realized that it will be 93 00:02:49.780 --> 00:02:51.999 harder than I 94 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:53.949 thought to master 95 00:02:53.950 --> 00:02:55.059 French language. 96 00:02:55.060 --> 00:02:56.060 So 97 00:02:57.310 --> 00:02:59.139 I started to write a journal 98 00:02:59.140 --> 00:03:01.389 and a kind of a diary in French 99 00:03:01.390 --> 00:03:02.589 language. 100 00:03:02.590 --> 00:03:05.409 I mean just to see what it is 101 00:03:05.410 --> 00:03:06.819 to write in French language. 102 00:03:06.820 --> 00:03:07.869 What does it taste 103 00:03:10.330 --> 00:03:11.229 - French words? 104 00:03:11.230 --> 00:03:13.899 And with the years, 105 00:03:13.900 --> 00:03:15.789 I understood as well that I will 106 00:03:15.790 --> 00:03:17.889 not be able to achieve the first 107 00:03:17.890 --> 00:03:20.589 dream to become a filmmaker quickly. 108 00:03:20.590 --> 00:03:22.419 Because I still-- at that time 109 00:03:22.420 --> 00:03:25.079 I was still poor 110 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:26.919 and I thought, "Okay, I'm doing 111 00:03:26.920 --> 00:03:27.819 French literature. 112 00:03:27.820 --> 00:03:29.769 I should continue." And 113 00:03:29.770 --> 00:03:31.629 I actually had become 114 00:03:31.630 --> 00:03:33.669 very good student in Rabat. 115 00:03:33.670 --> 00:03:35.529 And so I just continued 116 00:03:35.530 --> 00:03:37.299 the process. 117 00:03:37.300 --> 00:03:39.909 And after I graduated, 118 00:03:39.910 --> 00:03:40.910 I started in 119 00:03:44.230 --> 00:03:45.230 Rabat what 120 00:03:47.070 --> 00:03:49.169 we call the [foreign], first 121 00:03:49.170 --> 00:03:50.252 year of the doctoral session 122 00:03:52.570 --> 00:03:53.570 to-- about 123 00:03:55.920 --> 00:03:58.319 [foreign]. And that's how I got 124 00:03:58.320 --> 00:03:59.639 a scholarship. 125 00:03:59.640 --> 00:04:01.829 And they sent me to Geneva first 126 00:04:01.830 --> 00:04:03.659 and then to Paris. 127 00:04:03.660 --> 00:04:05.579 So I found myself 128 00:04:05.580 --> 00:04:07.799 already and something that 129 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:09.809 I didn't expect that I would 130 00:04:09.810 --> 00:04:10.808 like, which is to analyze. 131 00:04:10.809 --> 00:04:12.719 To read, to 132 00:04:12.720 --> 00:04:14.819 analyze, to imagine 133 00:04:14.820 --> 00:04:16.949 what is literature, 134 00:04:16.950 --> 00:04:17.950 what is the 135 00:04:18.810 --> 00:04:20.338 process of writing. 136 00:04:20.339 --> 00:04:21.339 So 137 00:04:22.170 --> 00:04:24.269 to become a filmmaker 138 00:04:24.270 --> 00:04:26.549 and even to become a writer, 139 00:04:26.550 --> 00:04:27.903 I did achieve that by 140 00:04:29.820 --> 00:04:31.139 studying in the university. 141 00:04:31.140 --> 00:04:33.239 First in Morocco and then 142 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:34.979 Geneva and Paris. 143 00:04:34.980 --> 00:04:37.049 I can say that I liked it very, 144 00:04:37.050 --> 00:04:38.429 very much. 145 00:04:38.430 --> 00:04:40.409 I liked the fact that we were 146 00:04:40.410 --> 00:04:42.299 talking about talking 147 00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:44.489 and spending so much time analyzing 148 00:04:44.490 --> 00:04:47.009 writings and books - 149 00:04:47.010 --> 00:04:48.959 things that are, for me, 150 00:04:48.960 --> 00:04:50.339 life. 151 00:04:50.340 --> 00:04:52.379 I never saw it as something 152 00:04:52.380 --> 00:04:53.380 outside 153 00:04:54.210 --> 00:04:55.709 of life. And that's what I loved 154 00:04:55.710 --> 00:04:57.419 about that process. 155 00:04:57.420 --> 00:04:58.919 So you've talked about the origins 156 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:01.019 of your work being the room that 157 00:05:01.020 --> 00:05:02.639 you lived in with your family when 158 00:05:02.640 --> 00:05:03.989 you were younger in Morocco. 159 00:05:03.990 --> 00:05:05.249 And in particular, you talk about 160 00:05:05.250 --> 00:05:06.839 the physical space that you shared 161 00:05:06.840 --> 00:05:07.747 with your family at that time. 162 00:05:07.748 --> 00:05:09.599 You also have 163 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:10.979 talked about the process of writing. 164 00:05:10.980 --> 00:05:12.329 Your process of writing is something 165 00:05:12.330 --> 00:05:13.859 physical in that you write with a 166 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:15.839 pen instead of writing on 167 00:05:15.840 --> 00:05:16.679 a computer. 168 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:17.999 Can you talk about that a bit? 169 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:19.829 The sense of writing being something 170 00:05:19.830 --> 00:05:20.909 that is physical rather than 171 00:05:20.910 --> 00:05:22.559 intellectual for you? 172 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:24.269 Yeah, of course. Because to write is 173 00:05:24.270 --> 00:05:26.189 to go back to something 174 00:05:26.190 --> 00:05:27.989 where it all started. 175 00:05:27.990 --> 00:05:29.909 And for me, it started in that 176 00:05:29.910 --> 00:05:31.769 poor house in Morocco with my 177 00:05:31.770 --> 00:05:33.929 family, my sisters, my 178 00:05:33.930 --> 00:05:35.339 two brothers. We were really big 179 00:05:35.340 --> 00:05:37.469 family and poor and big family. 180 00:05:37.470 --> 00:05:39.419 So I would 181 00:05:39.420 --> 00:05:41.339 say that I learned life 182 00:05:41.340 --> 00:05:42.209 there. 183 00:05:42.210 --> 00:05:43.349 And what is life? 184 00:05:43.350 --> 00:05:44.849 The taste of life, the complications 185 00:05:44.850 --> 00:05:47.309 of life, sex, revolution, 186 00:05:47.310 --> 00:05:49.139 fights, all those 187 00:05:49.140 --> 00:05:50.228 things. So, I mean, I didn't wait 188 00:05:53.190 --> 00:05:54.779 until I read Marcel Proust or 189 00:05:54.780 --> 00:05:56.909 Montaigne or Moliere to discover 190 00:05:56.910 --> 00:05:58.739 what is the drama 191 00:05:58.740 --> 00:05:59.669 happening in life. 192 00:05:59.670 --> 00:06:01.439 What is the tragedy of life? 193 00:06:01.440 --> 00:06:03.479 What is the invisible 194 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:05.759 happening while we are living 195 00:06:05.760 --> 00:06:06.760 on this earth? 196 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:09.749 So all these things happened already 197 00:06:09.750 --> 00:06:10.589 there. 198 00:06:10.590 --> 00:06:12.989 So I don't think it would be fair 199 00:06:12.990 --> 00:06:15.209 that now that I had the 200 00:06:15.210 --> 00:06:17.129 ability and the possibility to write 201 00:06:17.130 --> 00:06:18.130 and to be published, to 202 00:06:19.470 --> 00:06:21.629 turn my back to those 203 00:06:21.630 --> 00:06:23.699 first years where everything 204 00:06:24.990 --> 00:06:27.239 happened in me. 205 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:29.189 I could tell you what I 206 00:06:29.190 --> 00:06:31.079 love in Marcel Proust was I love 207 00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:32.969 in [foreign], but that 208 00:06:32.970 --> 00:06:34.523 would be only an intellectual way, 209 00:06:34.524 --> 00:06:36.379 an intellectual aspect of 210 00:06:37.410 --> 00:06:38.579 my life. And actually, what I 211 00:06:38.580 --> 00:06:40.290 learned from literature 212 00:06:41.520 --> 00:06:43.469 from my school years, although 213 00:06:43.470 --> 00:06:45.449 the professors didn't give 214 00:06:45.450 --> 00:06:48.209 us this link, is that, 215 00:06:48.210 --> 00:06:50.039 as I told you earlier, 216 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:52.619 books, films, paintings 217 00:06:53.670 --> 00:06:55.439 are not something happening outside 218 00:06:55.440 --> 00:06:56.399 of our reality. 219 00:06:56.400 --> 00:06:57.450 We can make the link. 220 00:06:58.590 --> 00:07:00.059 I see that there are here a lot of 221 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:01.529 paintings of Vermeer. 222 00:07:01.530 --> 00:07:03.449 I love Vermeer, but when I see 223 00:07:03.450 --> 00:07:05.819 Vermeer, I don't see only Holland. 224 00:07:05.820 --> 00:07:08.129 I see a lot of things 225 00:07:08.130 --> 00:07:10.229 that are coming as well from 226 00:07:10.230 --> 00:07:11.230 my 227 00:07:12.270 --> 00:07:14.189 family, the rooms, and the 228 00:07:14.190 --> 00:07:16.079 bodies of my sisters next 229 00:07:16.080 --> 00:07:18.899 to me. Because we were 230 00:07:18.900 --> 00:07:21.839 for many, many years, I spent-- 231 00:07:21.840 --> 00:07:23.759 I mean, my days and my nights with 232 00:07:23.760 --> 00:07:25.799 my sisters next to me and sleeping 233 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:28.049 next to me and my mother dominating 234 00:07:28.050 --> 00:07:29.939 us all the time. 235 00:07:29.940 --> 00:07:31.109 Can you talk a little bit about the 236 00:07:31.110 --> 00:07:32.939 importance of Egyptian cinema to you 237 00:07:32.940 --> 00:07:34.619 as an artist - and that is as both 238 00:07:34.620 --> 00:07:36.359 as a writer and a filmmaker? 239 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:38.429 So I discovered 240 00:07:38.430 --> 00:07:40.829 cinema first on Moroccan TV 241 00:07:40.830 --> 00:07:43.589 with Egyptian movies 242 00:07:43.590 --> 00:07:45.299 and the American movie-- the 243 00:07:45.300 --> 00:07:46.259 Western. 244 00:07:46.260 --> 00:07:48.119 Friday, it was Egyptian film, 245 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:50.189 and Sunday, it was a Western. 246 00:07:50.190 --> 00:07:52.499 So the images I was 247 00:07:52.500 --> 00:07:54.299 discovering at the time impacted me 248 00:07:54.300 --> 00:07:56.129 so much that 249 00:07:56.130 --> 00:07:58.169 I think the way the cinema 250 00:07:58.170 --> 00:08:00.569 works, the editing, the narratives, 251 00:08:00.570 --> 00:08:02.559 the ellipsis - that are 252 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:04.889 a lot in the cinema - are 253 00:08:04.890 --> 00:08:06.119 in my brain. 254 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:09.089 And they come out 255 00:08:09.090 --> 00:08:11.009 when I write, because my way 256 00:08:11.010 --> 00:08:13.349 of writing is very edited. 257 00:08:13.350 --> 00:08:14.819 It's not linear. 258 00:08:14.820 --> 00:08:15.629 Never. 259 00:08:15.630 --> 00:08:17.639 It's always with the big 260 00:08:17.640 --> 00:08:19.259 ellipsis and cuts. 261 00:08:19.260 --> 00:08:20.260 Lots and lots. 262 00:08:20.460 --> 00:08:22.529 So cinema 263 00:08:22.530 --> 00:08:24.839 influences me a lot, a lot, 264 00:08:24.840 --> 00:08:26.699 a lot more than literature. 265 00:08:26.700 --> 00:08:29.249 The dream to become a filmmaker 266 00:08:29.250 --> 00:08:32.009 helped me to become a writer 267 00:08:32.010 --> 00:08:33.959 because I had to master French in 268 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:35.699 order to become a filmmaker in 269 00:08:35.700 --> 00:08:36.700 Paris. 270 00:08:37.350 --> 00:08:39.269 But literature and 271 00:08:39.270 --> 00:08:41.129 film, for me, are the same 272 00:08:41.130 --> 00:08:42.130 things. Meaning 273 00:08:43.169 --> 00:08:43.965 it's all images. 274 00:08:43.966 --> 00:08:44.966 First of 275 00:08:45.990 --> 00:08:47.039 all, images. 276 00:08:47.040 --> 00:08:49.409 I construct images. 277 00:08:49.410 --> 00:08:51.269 I construct images even without 278 00:08:51.270 --> 00:08:52.319 words. 279 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.419 I am obliged to use the words, 280 00:08:54.420 --> 00:08:56.279 but it's first of all 281 00:08:56.280 --> 00:08:57.959 and at the end images. 282 00:08:57.960 --> 00:08:59.699 All about the images. 283 00:08:59.700 --> 00:09:01.769 And also particular actresses also 284 00:09:01.770 --> 00:09:03.149 have meant a lot to you. 285 00:09:03.150 --> 00:09:04.979 I have in mind Isabelle Adjani 286 00:09:04.980 --> 00:09:05.999 and also Marilyn Monroe. 287 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.000 You've spoken 288 00:09:07.890 --> 00:09:09.869 of the importance that 289 00:09:09.870 --> 00:09:11.699 their images have had in your 290 00:09:11.700 --> 00:09:12.689 life. 291 00:09:12.690 --> 00:09:14.279 I think it's because they were free 292 00:09:14.280 --> 00:09:15.280 bodies. 293 00:09:16.350 --> 00:09:17.350 To be an actor, 294 00:09:18.630 --> 00:09:21.089 it takes, I think, a lot of courage. 295 00:09:21.090 --> 00:09:22.349 I mean, even in America. 296 00:09:22.350 --> 00:09:24.179 I mean, to be in the image and 297 00:09:24.180 --> 00:09:26.579 to be in front of people and 298 00:09:26.580 --> 00:09:28.979 to be able to 299 00:09:28.980 --> 00:09:31.289 act, which means to be 300 00:09:31.290 --> 00:09:33.509 much more alive than you 301 00:09:33.510 --> 00:09:35.489 are in real life. 302 00:09:35.490 --> 00:09:37.499 We are not all able to do that. 303 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:39.689 So some actresses have 304 00:09:39.690 --> 00:09:41.699 that ability and miraculous 305 00:09:41.700 --> 00:09:43.919 ability than others. 306 00:09:43.920 --> 00:09:45.929 Marilyn Monroe, for sure, 307 00:09:45.930 --> 00:09:47.619 had more than talent. 308 00:09:48.930 --> 00:09:49.950 She had the grace 309 00:09:51.540 --> 00:09:53.159 of giving life through 310 00:09:54.330 --> 00:09:56.939 the way she acted on camera. 311 00:09:56.940 --> 00:09:57.921 Isabelle Adjani, Soa Hosny, Nadia 312 00:09:57.922 --> 00:09:58.922 Lutfi, Hind Rostom, 313 00:10:01.050 --> 00:10:02.879 a lot of actresses, maybe 314 00:10:02.880 --> 00:10:04.919 mostly actresses, because 315 00:10:04.920 --> 00:10:07.109 I think they are much more brave 316 00:10:07.110 --> 00:10:09.209 than actors - men actors. 317 00:10:09.210 --> 00:10:11.219 Like women are much more brave 318 00:10:11.220 --> 00:10:13.349 in reality than men. 319 00:10:13.350 --> 00:10:16.199 And they were doing 320 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:17.959 crazy things and then [inaudible] 321 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:19.949 and yet very, very much 322 00:10:19.950 --> 00:10:21.359 political. 323 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:23.189 So I identified 324 00:10:23.190 --> 00:10:24.629 maybe as a gay men, 325 00:10:26.160 --> 00:10:28.229 a little bit pushed away 326 00:10:28.230 --> 00:10:29.159 in the corner. 327 00:10:29.160 --> 00:10:31.679 So maybe I identified 328 00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:33.089 with that. 329 00:10:33.090 --> 00:10:35.369 The body of actresses. 330 00:10:35.370 --> 00:10:36.509 A writer that's been very important 331 00:10:36.510 --> 00:10:38.999 to you is the Moroccan author, 332 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:39.051 Mohamed Choukri. 333 00:10:39.052 --> 00:10:40.349 Very much. 334 00:10:40.350 --> 00:10:41.369 He's also someone who is very 335 00:10:41.370 --> 00:10:44.129 important to the character in 336 00:10:44.130 --> 00:10:44.939 Salvation Army. 337 00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:46.799 That character, in fact, says that 338 00:10:46.800 --> 00:10:47.729 Choukri introduced him to 339 00:10:47.730 --> 00:10:48.629 literature. 340 00:10:48.630 --> 00:10:50.219 Is that also true for you? 341 00:10:50.220 --> 00:10:52.199 Yes. Mohamed Choukri is 342 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.959 maybe the only writer in the world 343 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.419 that I would say 344 00:10:57.420 --> 00:10:59.729 he had some impact 345 00:10:59.730 --> 00:11:01.649 on me as an individual 346 00:11:01.650 --> 00:11:03.539 and as 347 00:11:03.540 --> 00:11:04.469 a writer. 348 00:11:04.470 --> 00:11:05.691 Because what Choukri has 349 00:11:07.170 --> 00:11:09.089 done in Morocco, in 350 00:11:09.090 --> 00:11:10.799 Moroccan society, in the Moroccan 351 00:11:10.800 --> 00:11:12.629 literature, is something 352 00:11:12.630 --> 00:11:14.999 huge. Because he brought 353 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:16.859 the language, the dirty 354 00:11:16.860 --> 00:11:18.599 language, Arabic language of the 355 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:20.549 streets, and he put it 356 00:11:20.550 --> 00:11:22.769 in the book, meaning that 357 00:11:22.770 --> 00:11:24.749 he was more 358 00:11:24.750 --> 00:11:26.579 naked than I 359 00:11:26.580 --> 00:11:28.559 will ever be. 360 00:11:28.560 --> 00:11:30.509 I mean, he was more than naked, more 361 00:11:30.510 --> 00:11:32.609 than brave, more than courageous. 362 00:11:32.610 --> 00:11:34.559 I talk about homosexuality 363 00:11:34.560 --> 00:11:37.109 in my books, my homosexuality, 364 00:11:37.110 --> 00:11:38.579 but I feel like that it's nothing 365 00:11:38.580 --> 00:11:41.069 compared to the achievement 366 00:11:41.070 --> 00:11:43.079 he has done 367 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:44.549 in his books. So, yes. 368 00:11:44.550 --> 00:11:45.809 I think I'm not the only one in 369 00:11:45.810 --> 00:11:46.810 Morocco to say that 370 00:11:47.730 --> 00:11:49.110 I feel like I'm his son, 371 00:11:50.190 --> 00:11:52.016 but not in a way that I-- a 372 00:11:52.017 --> 00:11:53.838 dominating father. 373 00:11:53.839 --> 00:11:54.839 I feel like he's 374 00:11:57.540 --> 00:11:58.540 a cool dad. 375 00:11:59.730 --> 00:12:01.319 He's a cool. And his literary 376 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.239 gesture was so 377 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:05.189 brave and so 378 00:12:05.190 --> 00:12:07.079 real that impacted 379 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:09.119 so many people, even 380 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.069 the ones that 381 00:12:11.070 --> 00:12:12.329 don't read. 382 00:12:12.330 --> 00:12:14.189 So it's not like I 383 00:12:14.190 --> 00:12:15.618 read the book-- one of his books, 384 00:12:15.619 --> 00:12:16.859 and I say, "I'm going to do like 385 00:12:16.860 --> 00:12:19.229 him." No, it was not like that. 386 00:12:19.230 --> 00:12:21.131 His impact to our 387 00:12:21.132 --> 00:12:23.459 lives, especially in the eighties, 388 00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:25.409 was beyond literature. 389 00:12:25.410 --> 00:12:27.809 And that's something, again, I like. 390 00:12:27.810 --> 00:12:30.509 When literature is not 391 00:12:30.510 --> 00:12:32.819 fixed only in the borders 392 00:12:32.820 --> 00:12:35.759 or the frontiers of literature. 393 00:12:35.760 --> 00:12:37.799 So, given the very strong connection 394 00:12:37.800 --> 00:12:39.539 that you have to the Arabic language 395 00:12:39.540 --> 00:12:41.969 to Choukri to Morocco, 396 00:12:41.970 --> 00:12:42.989 I wonder if you can talk a little 397 00:12:42.990 --> 00:12:44.789 bit about your decision to write in 398 00:12:44.790 --> 00:12:46.229 French rather than in your native 399 00:12:46.230 --> 00:12:47.159 language? 400 00:12:47.160 --> 00:12:48.235 Well, it is strange 401 00:12:49.380 --> 00:12:51.063 that someone like me writes 402 00:12:52.190 --> 00:12:53.279 in French, which is 403 00:12:55.020 --> 00:12:56.579 definitely not my language and not 404 00:12:56.580 --> 00:12:58.439 the language of the people I'm 405 00:12:58.440 --> 00:12:59.409 coming from. 406 00:12:59.410 --> 00:13:01.379 Because the poor people, 407 00:13:01.380 --> 00:13:02.939 they don't really master French 408 00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:04.409 language in Morocco. 409 00:13:04.410 --> 00:13:06.239 So that's my first 410 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:07.949 impression of French, that it's a 411 00:13:07.950 --> 00:13:10.049 language that is not 412 00:13:10.050 --> 00:13:11.789 for us. That's what they said. 413 00:13:11.790 --> 00:13:13.379 It's not for poor people. 414 00:13:13.380 --> 00:13:15.779 It's a language for the elite, for 415 00:13:15.780 --> 00:13:17.609 the rich people, for the 416 00:13:17.610 --> 00:13:19.199 political people in Morocco. 417 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.419 So for many 418 00:13:21.420 --> 00:13:23.319 years, it was like 419 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:25.199 a kind of promise I 420 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.209 made to myself and to my 421 00:13:27.210 --> 00:13:29.849 father that I will never 422 00:13:29.850 --> 00:13:31.779 learn that language. 423 00:13:31.780 --> 00:13:33.299 I will never master it. 424 00:13:33.300 --> 00:13:34.559 But what happens again is the 425 00:13:34.560 --> 00:13:35.560 cinema. It's 426 00:13:36.900 --> 00:13:39.719 the desire to be a filmmaker and 427 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:41.549 the discovery of this 428 00:13:41.550 --> 00:13:43.019 school of cinema in Paris. 429 00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:44.512 That changed a little bit-- that 430 00:13:47.310 --> 00:13:49.139 pushed me to not respect 431 00:13:49.140 --> 00:13:51.389 my promise-- my promises 432 00:13:51.390 --> 00:13:52.469 to my father. 433 00:13:52.470 --> 00:13:54.164 So I 434 00:13:56.550 --> 00:13:57.550 studied French language, although 435 00:13:58.740 --> 00:14:00.599 I had the feeling that it's 436 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:01.649 not my language. 437 00:14:01.650 --> 00:14:02.650 And until now, I 438 00:14:07.950 --> 00:14:10.199 cannot say that I am totally 439 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.029 comfortable in language. 440 00:14:12.030 --> 00:14:13.889 I cannot say 441 00:14:13.890 --> 00:14:15.989 that it's a language that will 442 00:14:15.990 --> 00:14:17.489 stay in me forever. 443 00:14:17.490 --> 00:14:19.349 For instance, I feel 444 00:14:19.350 --> 00:14:20.350 like if I stopped-- if 445 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:24.119 I am like living in Argentina 446 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.249 and starting to learn Spanish, 447 00:14:26.250 --> 00:14:28.559 I think French will go away. 448 00:14:28.560 --> 00:14:30.419 That's just 449 00:14:30.420 --> 00:14:31.589 a feeling. 450 00:14:31.590 --> 00:14:33.539 But a true feeling that it 451 00:14:33.540 --> 00:14:36.269 means that when I write, I had to 452 00:14:36.270 --> 00:14:38.189 deal with all this 453 00:14:38.190 --> 00:14:40.829 mixed and complex 454 00:14:40.830 --> 00:14:43.139 feelings I have for French 455 00:14:43.140 --> 00:14:44.219 language. 456 00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:46.049 So I don't know if I 457 00:14:46.050 --> 00:14:47.400 would be able to 458 00:14:48.810 --> 00:14:50.999 have the same interesting 459 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.309 and complex relationship 460 00:14:53.310 --> 00:14:55.499 with Arabic and to write in Arabic. 461 00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:57.389 Arabic it's something that dominates 462 00:14:57.390 --> 00:14:59.399 me and knows me better than 463 00:14:59.400 --> 00:15:02.219 I know myself. In French, 464 00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:03.438 with French language, 465 00:15:04.740 --> 00:15:06.929 I know that I can fight. 466 00:15:06.930 --> 00:15:08.129 I can have a battle. 467 00:15:08.130 --> 00:15:10.199 I can do things. 468 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:11.609 I can fight for something. 469 00:15:13.870 --> 00:15:15.969 So in a way, Mohamed 470 00:15:15.970 --> 00:15:16.970 Choukri 471 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:22.059 didn't influence me in 472 00:15:22.060 --> 00:15:22.929 this. 473 00:15:22.930 --> 00:15:25.689 He was a big model 474 00:15:25.690 --> 00:15:27.249 for all of us. 475 00:15:27.250 --> 00:15:28.250 But 476 00:15:29.590 --> 00:15:31.509 if I was his, 477 00:15:31.510 --> 00:15:33.519 I mean, his true son, I would 478 00:15:35.800 --> 00:15:38.799 have written in Arabic. 479 00:15:38.800 --> 00:15:40.539 One thing I'm interested in is many 480 00:15:40.540 --> 00:15:42.459 of the writers who 481 00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:44.019 I know of who write autobiographical 482 00:15:44.020 --> 00:15:45.849 fiction, they feel a need to 483 00:15:45.850 --> 00:15:47.499 draw a distinction between their 484 00:15:47.500 --> 00:15:49.689 characters and their lives. 485 00:15:49.690 --> 00:15:50.949 I wonder if you feel the same 486 00:15:50.950 --> 00:15:51.819 distinction about some of the 487 00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:53.169 autobiographical works that you've 488 00:15:53.170 --> 00:15:53.439 written. 489 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.389 No. I don't feel the need 490 00:15:55.390 --> 00:15:57.249 to separate myself 491 00:15:57.250 --> 00:15:59.199 from what I do in 492 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:01.029 books-- the people I put 493 00:16:01.030 --> 00:16:02.979 in books. 494 00:16:02.980 --> 00:16:05.079 For me, they have to be real. 495 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.119 They have already to exist 496 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.189 in objectively, physically, 497 00:16:09.190 --> 00:16:11.229 in the reality, in our reality 498 00:16:11.230 --> 00:16:12.159 on Earth. 499 00:16:12.160 --> 00:16:14.349 And I have to be in connection 500 00:16:14.350 --> 00:16:15.219 with them. 501 00:16:15.220 --> 00:16:17.919 I have had experiences 502 00:16:17.920 --> 00:16:19.269 with them through them. 503 00:16:19.270 --> 00:16:21.099 Otherwise, I will never be able 504 00:16:21.100 --> 00:16:22.929 to-- I don't feel 505 00:16:22.930 --> 00:16:23.930 the need to 506 00:16:25.090 --> 00:16:27.009 have some literary 507 00:16:27.010 --> 00:16:28.839 posture just to say this is a 508 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:29.840 book you don't-- as 509 00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:31.989 I told you, what I'm really 510 00:16:31.990 --> 00:16:34.179 interested in is to break the 511 00:16:34.180 --> 00:16:35.440 barriers between 512 00:16:36.450 --> 00:16:38.409 the written words and 513 00:16:38.410 --> 00:16:40.449 the feelings, the things happening 514 00:16:40.450 --> 00:16:43.359 in real life before the words. 515 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:46.119 I don't want to be 516 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:48.009 outside of life 517 00:16:48.010 --> 00:16:49.299 when I write. 518 00:16:49.300 --> 00:16:50.300 And I don't want when 519 00:16:51.640 --> 00:16:53.529 I read a book to feel like this book 520 00:16:53.530 --> 00:16:54.536 has nothing to do with life-- my 521 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:57.309 life, in a way. 522 00:16:57.310 --> 00:16:59.409 So even when I write 523 00:16:59.410 --> 00:17:01.599 about other people, like for 524 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:03.519 my two last books, 525 00:17:03.520 --> 00:17:05.529 they are fictional. 526 00:17:05.530 --> 00:17:07.509 But not fictional 527 00:17:07.510 --> 00:17:09.549 in the way that I don't know them 528 00:17:09.550 --> 00:17:10.989 or have nothing to do with them. 529 00:17:12.470 --> 00:17:13.470 A lot of characteristics 530 00:17:17.290 --> 00:17:18.969 of them are coming from me. 531 00:17:18.970 --> 00:17:19.970 Even when they are bad and 532 00:17:21.190 --> 00:17:22.190 even when they are monstrous. The 533 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:24.519 army. 534 00:17:24.520 --> 00:17:26.549 And that was I want to give 535 00:17:26.550 --> 00:17:27.789 to the readers. 536 00:17:27.790 --> 00:17:30.339 This separation of borders. 537 00:17:30.340 --> 00:17:31.749 I recently saw an interview, for 538 00:17:31.750 --> 00:17:32.859 example, where you were referred to 539 00:17:32.860 --> 00:17:34.149 as a memoirist. 540 00:17:34.150 --> 00:17:35.859 And some novelists might object to 541 00:17:35.860 --> 00:17:37.839 this label, but 542 00:17:37.840 --> 00:17:38.679 it doesn't seem like this is 543 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:39.819 something that matters as much to 544 00:17:39.820 --> 00:17:40.779 you. Is that right? 545 00:17:40.780 --> 00:17:42.729 No, because I am not very much 546 00:17:42.730 --> 00:17:43.730 theoretical. 547 00:17:45.670 --> 00:17:47.709 I mean, I studied French language 548 00:17:47.710 --> 00:17:49.509 and French literature, but the 549 00:17:49.510 --> 00:17:51.819 theories of French and France 550 00:17:51.820 --> 00:17:53.109 are not for me. 551 00:17:53.110 --> 00:17:54.999 And I don't want to bring 552 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.069 some theories and to put them in my 553 00:17:57.070 --> 00:17:59.019 reality in order to have some 554 00:17:59.020 --> 00:18:00.969 explanation-- through the 555 00:18:00.970 --> 00:18:02.209 explanation, whatever. 556 00:18:02.210 --> 00:18:04.159 I don't know. Or rational or 557 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:05.649 a rational explanation. 558 00:18:05.650 --> 00:18:07.179 I don't think reality-- I don't 559 00:18:07.180 --> 00:18:09.129 think books or art 560 00:18:09.130 --> 00:18:11.859 is here to explain or 561 00:18:11.860 --> 00:18:12.769 to know. 562 00:18:12.770 --> 00:18:15.219 It's just there. 563 00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:17.079 And I don't think 564 00:18:17.080 --> 00:18:18.839 when I write that I am a gay writer, 565 00:18:18.840 --> 00:18:20.739 or I'm doing a gay book or gay 566 00:18:20.740 --> 00:18:23.169 literature or Maghreb literature. 567 00:18:23.170 --> 00:18:25.329 I'm just trying to 568 00:18:25.330 --> 00:18:26.769 build something that is 569 00:18:27.820 --> 00:18:29.049 real and true. 570 00:18:29.050 --> 00:18:30.879 Totally, totally true. 571 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.819 If some other people want to 572 00:18:33.820 --> 00:18:35.829 put their theories on my 573 00:18:35.830 --> 00:18:37.719 books, that's something else 574 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:39.729 that I don't want to know 575 00:18:39.730 --> 00:18:41.289 about. 576 00:18:41.290 --> 00:18:42.880 Because I don't care about to being 577 00:18:42.881 --> 00:18:43.881 a writer. 578 00:18:44.050 --> 00:18:45.400 If I don't-- I don't 579 00:18:47.320 --> 00:18:48.320 want to 580 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:52.329 have a prestige or something. 581 00:18:52.330 --> 00:18:53.409 I mean, I write books. 582 00:18:53.410 --> 00:18:54.410 That's it. 583 00:18:55.210 --> 00:18:56.529 So in the second chapter of 584 00:18:56.530 --> 00:18:58.509 Salvation Army, the character-- 585 00:18:58.510 --> 00:19:00.459 the Abdellah character in that 586 00:19:00.460 --> 00:19:02.349 book, he 587 00:19:02.350 --> 00:19:03.429 starts writing as a way of 588 00:19:03.430 --> 00:19:04.989 understanding what's happening to 589 00:19:04.990 --> 00:19:06.729 him while he's on vacation with his 590 00:19:06.730 --> 00:19:08.019 older brother. He's writing, in 591 00:19:08.020 --> 00:19:09.399 other words, as a way of-- a method 592 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:11.319 of understanding his experience. 593 00:19:11.320 --> 00:19:12.909 I wonder if you look at writing in a 594 00:19:12.910 --> 00:19:14.739 similar way as 595 00:19:14.740 --> 00:19:17.139 a means to understanding experience. 596 00:19:17.140 --> 00:19:18.729 Because when I was studying French 597 00:19:18.730 --> 00:19:20.829 language in Rabat, in Geneva, 598 00:19:20.830 --> 00:19:22.039 I mean, I had read all these 599 00:19:23.078 --> 00:19:24.134 French theories, [foreign], all 600 00:19:25.210 --> 00:19:27.129 these things. But I 601 00:19:27.130 --> 00:19:28.929 always thought that I should forget 602 00:19:28.930 --> 00:19:31.359 about them because otherwise, 603 00:19:31.360 --> 00:19:32.360 I would be colonized 604 00:19:35.260 --> 00:19:36.309 again. 605 00:19:36.310 --> 00:19:37.310 And 606 00:19:39.250 --> 00:19:41.109 it will push me to 607 00:19:41.110 --> 00:19:43.239 see my 608 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:44.240 reality and 609 00:19:45.280 --> 00:19:47.469 what is the experience of life 610 00:19:47.470 --> 00:19:49.299 in a way that is not mine. 611 00:19:49.300 --> 00:19:52.119 And that thing will only please 612 00:19:52.120 --> 00:19:53.948 some people, some Western 613 00:19:53.949 --> 00:19:55.029 people. 614 00:19:55.030 --> 00:19:57.159 They have already their own 615 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:00.189 ideas on people like me coming from 616 00:20:00.190 --> 00:20:02.199 Morocco, from Muslim 617 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:03.429 country, etc. 618 00:20:03.430 --> 00:20:04.929 And that's something that I don't 619 00:20:04.930 --> 00:20:07.269 want to-- I don't want to give 620 00:20:07.270 --> 00:20:09.159 that-- to be the 621 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:11.049 image they are expecting me to 622 00:20:11.050 --> 00:20:13.119 be or to say 623 00:20:13.120 --> 00:20:15.669 what they are expecting me to say. 624 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:16.869 Even when I talk about 625 00:20:16.870 --> 00:20:17.870 homosexuality, I 626 00:20:19.600 --> 00:20:20.600 don't want to be the 627 00:20:22.330 --> 00:20:24.249 victim they are expecting me to 628 00:20:24.250 --> 00:20:25.689 be. Because, of course, when you are 629 00:20:25.690 --> 00:20:27.609 gay, it's hard, it's 630 00:20:27.610 --> 00:20:28.449 tough, etc. 631 00:20:28.450 --> 00:20:30.309 But I always try 632 00:20:30.310 --> 00:20:32.679 to put it in the big picture, 633 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:34.989 not only the suffering 634 00:20:34.990 --> 00:20:36.939 picture, because when you are 635 00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:37.940 gay, you 636 00:20:39.280 --> 00:20:41.169 are not only gay. 637 00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:43.869 You have other things 638 00:20:43.870 --> 00:20:45.909 that is happening in your life, 639 00:20:45.910 --> 00:20:47.509 in your body. 640 00:20:47.510 --> 00:20:49.419 So again, 641 00:20:49.420 --> 00:20:50.470 question of frontiers and borders. 642 00:20:51.550 --> 00:20:52.749 One other thing I was interested 643 00:20:52.750 --> 00:20:54.279 about is in interviews, you have 644 00:20:54.280 --> 00:20:55.809 talked about your generation in 645 00:20:55.810 --> 00:20:58.269 Morocco being the "I" generation. 646 00:20:58.270 --> 00:21:00.309 And you've also talked about this 647 00:21:00.310 --> 00:21:02.124 in the focus on the "I" 648 00:21:02.125 --> 00:21:03.839 or on the individual as a sort of 649 00:21:03.840 --> 00:21:04.659 betrayal. 650 00:21:04.660 --> 00:21:05.889 And particularly in your case, this 651 00:21:05.890 --> 00:21:06.729 is something that involves 652 00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:08.140 expressing your sexuality. 653 00:21:09.220 --> 00:21:10.569 I wonder if you can talk about that 654 00:21:10.570 --> 00:21:12.819 sense of kind of focusing in the 655 00:21:12.820 --> 00:21:14.589 "I" as a kind of betrayal. 656 00:21:15.609 --> 00:21:17.090 Yeah, I think I wrote this text 657 00:21:18.340 --> 00:21:20.199 The Generation of the 658 00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:21.200 "I", I 659 00:21:22.330 --> 00:21:24.339 think, in maybe 2007 or something 660 00:21:24.340 --> 00:21:26.049 like that in French. 661 00:21:26.050 --> 00:21:28.029 And I think since then, I 662 00:21:28.030 --> 00:21:29.499 changed a little bit my opinions 663 00:21:29.500 --> 00:21:30.639 about from that text. 664 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:32.649 Of course, the 665 00:21:32.650 --> 00:21:34.673 "I" is very important in a 666 00:21:34.674 --> 00:21:36.639 society like Moroccan society, but 667 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:39.069 that doesn't mean that this "I" 668 00:21:39.070 --> 00:21:41.469 is-- of course, he has to betray 669 00:21:41.470 --> 00:21:42.470 some people, 670 00:21:43.390 --> 00:21:45.459 but it's only the people we betray. 671 00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:47.319 We don't betray 672 00:21:47.320 --> 00:21:49.329 what is really important 673 00:21:50.530 --> 00:21:52.389 going on between and 674 00:21:52.390 --> 00:21:53.409 deeply between us. 675 00:21:53.410 --> 00:21:55.549 And that 676 00:21:55.550 --> 00:21:57.459 thing is not recognized by 677 00:21:57.460 --> 00:21:59.649 the society when someone stands 678 00:21:59.650 --> 00:22:01.380 up and say, "I am different. 679 00:22:01.381 --> 00:22:02.381 I 680 00:22:03.580 --> 00:22:05.709 want this, and I want this." He 681 00:22:05.710 --> 00:22:08.529 is socially and politically 682 00:22:08.530 --> 00:22:10.689 pushed to be a traitor. 683 00:22:10.690 --> 00:22:13.089 But being a traitor doesn't mean 684 00:22:13.090 --> 00:22:15.249 that you turn your back to 685 00:22:15.250 --> 00:22:17.499 what is in common between 686 00:22:17.500 --> 00:22:19.419 your illiterate 687 00:22:19.420 --> 00:22:21.129 mother and you. 688 00:22:21.130 --> 00:22:23.259 Again, it's not because I 689 00:22:23.260 --> 00:22:24.696 can write and publish that 690 00:22:26.110 --> 00:22:27.939 my "I" 691 00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:29.829 is more important than the "I" of 692 00:22:29.830 --> 00:22:31.419 my mother. 693 00:22:31.420 --> 00:22:33.609 That's the 694 00:22:33.610 --> 00:22:35.409 nuance that now I can bring to that 695 00:22:35.410 --> 00:22:36.537 text. Because in that text, 696 00:22:37.780 --> 00:22:39.334 I was maybe more self-conscious, 697 00:22:40.900 --> 00:22:43.149 more egoist than 698 00:22:43.150 --> 00:22:44.580 maybe I am-- maybe I am less 699 00:22:46.070 --> 00:22:48.129 egoist today or I have 700 00:22:48.130 --> 00:22:49.119 other perspectives. 701 00:22:49.120 --> 00:22:50.120 So my "I" 702 00:22:51.790 --> 00:22:53.619 is the "I" of my mother, is the 703 00:22:53.620 --> 00:22:54.669 "I" of my sisters. 704 00:22:54.670 --> 00:22:55.780 When I speak with and 705 00:22:58.420 --> 00:23:00.195 about my "I", I speak about them 706 00:23:02.010 --> 00:23:02.919 as well. 707 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:04.720 Because I really believe that 708 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:07.749 literature, the 709 00:23:07.750 --> 00:23:09.789 arts in general, it's not only 710 00:23:09.790 --> 00:23:12.459 made for the cultivated people. 711 00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:14.379 Otherwise, that would make no sense. 712 00:23:14.380 --> 00:23:15.879 I mean, if you are speaking only to 713 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:16.959 the people who already can 714 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:19.209 understand everything without 715 00:23:19.210 --> 00:23:20.469 me, without my help, 716 00:23:21.670 --> 00:23:22.479 that's what the need of the 717 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:23.480 literature is. 718 00:23:23.740 --> 00:23:24.849 So your books are available in 719 00:23:24.850 --> 00:23:26.889 Morocco now, but many years ago, 720 00:23:26.890 --> 00:23:29.229 they probably would not have been. 721 00:23:29.230 --> 00:23:30.699 Do you see this change as a positive 722 00:23:30.700 --> 00:23:31.989 thing for the country? 723 00:23:31.990 --> 00:23:34.839 Well, because of my background, 724 00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:36.819 because of my origins, I mean, poor, 725 00:23:36.820 --> 00:23:39.309 gay, Muslim, 726 00:23:39.310 --> 00:23:41.619 and speaking and writing in French. 727 00:23:41.620 --> 00:23:42.766 So that puts me not 728 00:23:44.170 --> 00:23:45.999 in the right place they are 729 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.799 expecting me to be. 730 00:23:47.800 --> 00:23:48.800 So I 731 00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:52.479 am just very happy that my books 732 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:54.069 are available there. 733 00:23:54.070 --> 00:23:56.529 It's already really huge. 734 00:23:56.530 --> 00:23:58.389 It's important 735 00:23:58.390 --> 00:24:01.179 for gay people 736 00:24:01.180 --> 00:24:02.019 first. 737 00:24:02.020 --> 00:24:04.119 It's important for my 738 00:24:04.120 --> 00:24:05.120 generation. And 739 00:24:05.950 --> 00:24:07.509 it's important that 740 00:24:08.560 --> 00:24:10.012 someone, I mean, coming 741 00:24:12.130 --> 00:24:14.109 from poor people to be able 742 00:24:14.110 --> 00:24:16.689 to write, to be published in France, 743 00:24:16.690 --> 00:24:18.489 to be translated into English in 744 00:24:18.490 --> 00:24:19.539 America. 745 00:24:19.540 --> 00:24:21.369 I mean, I'm not 746 00:24:21.370 --> 00:24:22.689 proud of anything, but I am 747 00:24:22.690 --> 00:24:23.690 conscious of the importance 748 00:24:25.210 --> 00:24:26.210 of those 749 00:24:27.100 --> 00:24:28.509 presences. 750 00:24:28.510 --> 00:24:30.339 I mean, I know that my books are not 751 00:24:30.340 --> 00:24:32.349 bestsellers like, I don't know, 752 00:24:32.350 --> 00:24:34.179 other writers, 753 00:24:34.180 --> 00:24:35.180 but still, 754 00:24:38.230 --> 00:24:39.654 it's something that I am very 755 00:24:42.290 --> 00:24:43.189 happy with. 756 00:24:43.190 --> 00:24:44.190 I mean, I 757 00:24:46.250 --> 00:24:48.289 totally-- I would totally understand 758 00:24:48.290 --> 00:24:50.419 if a young 759 00:24:50.420 --> 00:24:52.699 Moroccan man finds 760 00:24:52.700 --> 00:24:54.589 out about me and started to read 761 00:24:54.590 --> 00:24:56.599 about me and read my books that 762 00:24:56.600 --> 00:24:57.600 he 763 00:24:58.550 --> 00:25:00.439 or she will see 764 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.849 himself in what I do. 765 00:25:02.850 --> 00:25:04.474 Especially that I don't-- in 766 00:25:06.140 --> 00:25:07.140 the way I write, it's 767 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.189 not typically 768 00:25:10.190 --> 00:25:11.059 classical. 769 00:25:11.060 --> 00:25:12.919 It doesn't 770 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.349 respect the traditions. 771 00:25:15.350 --> 00:25:16.350 So we're just 772 00:25:18.080 --> 00:25:19.080 again being 773 00:25:20.180 --> 00:25:22.669 naked whether they like it or not. 774 00:25:22.670 --> 00:25:24.229 You've talked in the past about your 775 00:25:24.230 --> 00:25:26.509 desire to renew Islam, 776 00:25:26.510 --> 00:25:28.429 but also you talked about the 777 00:25:28.430 --> 00:25:29.719 fact that you feel that the sources 778 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.059 of this renewal are already present. 779 00:25:32.060 --> 00:25:33.139 And I wonder if you can talk about 780 00:25:33.140 --> 00:25:34.819 that a little bit. 781 00:25:34.820 --> 00:25:36.859 I mean, I was born in a Muslim 782 00:25:36.860 --> 00:25:38.509 country. I was raised there. 783 00:25:38.510 --> 00:25:40.789 I lived 25 years there. 784 00:25:40.790 --> 00:25:42.619 So Islam is 785 00:25:42.620 --> 00:25:45.379 not these cliches-- 786 00:25:45.380 --> 00:25:47.129 the savage people. 787 00:25:47.130 --> 00:25:48.130 The 788 00:25:49.460 --> 00:25:50.869 West think they are. 789 00:25:50.870 --> 00:25:51.870 So 790 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:55.009 for me, it's culture, 791 00:25:55.010 --> 00:25:57.690 feeling, smells, experiences, 792 00:25:58.910 --> 00:26:01.339 transgressions, so, so many things. 793 00:26:01.340 --> 00:26:03.229 I cannot just 794 00:26:03.230 --> 00:26:05.239 erase that 795 00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:06.589 from my body and from my memory, 796 00:26:06.590 --> 00:26:09.199 saying, "I am not Muslim anymore." 797 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.060 To say I am not Muslim anymore means 798 00:26:12.380 --> 00:26:14.210 that I don't exist, that I am dead. 799 00:26:15.230 --> 00:26:17.419 Of course, there are problems within 800 00:26:17.420 --> 00:26:18.610 Muslim people with 801 00:26:20.630 --> 00:26:23.179 a lot of issues to work on today. 802 00:26:23.180 --> 00:26:24.709 That's something else. 803 00:26:24.710 --> 00:26:26.470 I'm talking about how 804 00:26:29.270 --> 00:26:31.309 Islam as 805 00:26:31.310 --> 00:26:33.649 a social structure-- as a 806 00:26:33.650 --> 00:26:35.839 cultural structure 807 00:26:35.840 --> 00:26:37.699 have penetrated me, if I 808 00:26:37.700 --> 00:26:40.189 might say, and my body and 809 00:26:40.190 --> 00:26:41.408 the way they are in my imagination. 810 00:26:41.409 --> 00:26:43.339 That means 811 00:26:43.340 --> 00:26:45.024 that when I write, when I speak, 812 00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:49.189 those structures are here. 813 00:26:49.190 --> 00:26:51.229 So how could I say 814 00:26:51.230 --> 00:26:52.429 I'm not Muslim anymore? 815 00:26:52.430 --> 00:26:53.430 It means no-- 816 00:26:54.320 --> 00:26:55.879 it has no sense to me. 817 00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:57.737 I know that Islam-- 818 00:26:57.738 --> 00:26:59.779 they say Islam condemned 819 00:26:59.780 --> 00:27:00.780 homosexuality, etc., 820 00:27:01.970 --> 00:27:03.499 but the contradictions are 821 00:27:03.500 --> 00:27:04.759 everywhere. 822 00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:06.649 So why only to stop 823 00:27:06.650 --> 00:27:08.479 on this one? 824 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:10.609 It's up to me to make 825 00:27:10.610 --> 00:27:11.610 my own mixture 826 00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:13.920 if I might say. So 827 00:27:15.080 --> 00:27:17.119 it's not that I want to defend Islam 828 00:27:17.120 --> 00:27:19.309 and to say this is a good religion, 829 00:27:19.310 --> 00:27:21.319 nonviolent religion, etc. 830 00:27:21.320 --> 00:27:22.939 It's not my purpose. 831 00:27:22.940 --> 00:27:24.949 My purpose is 832 00:27:24.950 --> 00:27:26.839 I am coming from that country. 833 00:27:28.190 --> 00:27:29.959 And the contradictions, the idea of 834 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:31.789 freedom, the idea of culture is 835 00:27:31.790 --> 00:27:33.709 coming as well from 836 00:27:33.710 --> 00:27:35.030 this thing called Islam. 837 00:27:36.080 --> 00:27:37.129 So you see the possibility for 838 00:27:37.130 --> 00:27:38.569 change in the complications in 839 00:27:38.570 --> 00:27:40.369 everyday lives of the people. 840 00:27:40.370 --> 00:27:41.089 Is that right? 841 00:27:41.090 --> 00:27:42.769 Of course. Because at the end, 842 00:27:44.660 --> 00:27:47.089 what stops a revolution to happen 843 00:27:47.090 --> 00:27:48.529 is the political people. 844 00:27:48.530 --> 00:27:50.389 It's how these politics, they want 845 00:27:50.390 --> 00:27:52.289 to get to stay in power 846 00:27:52.290 --> 00:27:54.769 and to stop the change to happen. 847 00:27:54.770 --> 00:27:55.770 So 848 00:27:57.230 --> 00:27:58.603 I know from inside that 849 00:28:00.770 --> 00:28:03.169 the changes-- the little changes 850 00:28:03.170 --> 00:28:04.969 are already there. 851 00:28:04.970 --> 00:28:06.829 I don't know if there will be a big 852 00:28:06.830 --> 00:28:08.749 revolution that will change 853 00:28:08.750 --> 00:28:10.819 the face of the whole Muslim 854 00:28:10.820 --> 00:28:13.219 countries, but little changes 855 00:28:13.220 --> 00:28:14.869 are already there. 856 00:28:14.870 --> 00:28:16.189 And these complications that you're 857 00:28:16.190 --> 00:28:17.190 talking about in these complexities. This 858 00:28:18.110 --> 00:28:19.939 is what you want your 859 00:28:19.940 --> 00:28:22.039 work to connect to? 860 00:28:22.040 --> 00:28:23.040 Absolutely. 861 00:28:24.260 --> 00:28:26.269 It's a movement, something 862 00:28:26.270 --> 00:28:28.669 happening. I mean, it's not because 863 00:28:28.670 --> 00:28:31.189 you are poor that you 864 00:28:31.190 --> 00:28:33.589 live in a poor wage. 865 00:28:33.590 --> 00:28:35.749 The poor are somehow rich if 866 00:28:35.750 --> 00:28:36.750 I might say. 867 00:28:37.340 --> 00:28:39.199 They deal with reality. 868 00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:40.729 They become clever. 869 00:28:40.730 --> 00:28:42.469 They do things. 870 00:28:42.470 --> 00:28:44.629 They don't live in the images of 871 00:28:44.630 --> 00:28:46.579 what we have about poor people. 872 00:28:46.580 --> 00:28:47.895 So when I write, 873 00:28:52.040 --> 00:28:53.040 I don't give 874 00:28:54.050 --> 00:28:55.969 poor images on poor people. 875 00:28:55.970 --> 00:28:57.469 It's impossible. 876 00:28:57.470 --> 00:28:58.470 I 877 00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:02.669 have always avoid all this, again, 878 00:29:02.670 --> 00:29:04.679 what is expected 879 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:06.599 from someone like me. 880 00:29:06.600 --> 00:29:08.639 And that doesn't mean that I 881 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:10.559 allow as well myself to be much more 882 00:29:10.560 --> 00:29:12.509 free than my family 883 00:29:12.510 --> 00:29:14.759 is expecting me to be. 884 00:29:14.760 --> 00:29:16.049 And then exposing these 885 00:29:16.050 --> 00:29:17.639 complications and the kind of the 886 00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:19.649 lives, these everyday lives of 887 00:29:19.650 --> 00:29:20.789 people the way that you're talking 888 00:29:20.790 --> 00:29:21.599 about. 889 00:29:21.600 --> 00:29:23.159 Is this something you feel like that 890 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:24.629 can contribute to change? 891 00:29:24.630 --> 00:29:26.909 I know that in the West, 892 00:29:26.910 --> 00:29:28.199 maybe people don't believe that 893 00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:29.759 literature will make the change 894 00:29:29.760 --> 00:29:30.689 anymore. 895 00:29:30.690 --> 00:29:32.609 But maybe I might be naive. 896 00:29:32.610 --> 00:29:34.499 But from the country where I am 897 00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:36.719 coming from and 898 00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:38.436 the history we had, 899 00:29:40.620 --> 00:29:42.449 this might sound naive, but I 900 00:29:42.450 --> 00:29:44.009 do think that the existence of a 901 00:29:44.010 --> 00:29:45.929 book-- the existence 902 00:29:45.930 --> 00:29:47.969 is something that already 903 00:29:47.970 --> 00:29:50.069 could make some changes 904 00:29:50.070 --> 00:29:51.299 happen. 905 00:29:51.300 --> 00:29:52.919 That's what I think. 906 00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:55.169 Otherwise, I will not be going 907 00:29:55.170 --> 00:29:57.779 through this crazy process 908 00:29:57.780 --> 00:29:58.950 of writing a book. 909 00:30:06.330 --> 00:30:07.499 That's it for this installment of 910 00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:08.519 the University of Pittsburgh 911 00:30:08.520 --> 00:30:10.079 Humanities podcast. 912 00:30:10.080 --> 00:30:11.819 Our guest was Abdellah Taїa, whose 913 00:30:11.820 --> 00:30:13.469 film Salvation Army was released in 914 00:30:13.470 --> 00:30:15.359 2013. 915 00:30:15.360 --> 00:30:16.259 We would like to thank the 916 00:30:16.260 --> 00:30:17.879 University of Pittsburgh's Office of 917 00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:19.259 the Provost for their support for 918 00:30:19.260 --> 00:30:20.729 the Year of the Humanities. 919 00:30:20.730 --> 00:30:22.019 Our next podcast will feature 920 00:30:22.020 --> 00:30:23.429 Margaret Homans, Professor of 921 00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:24.689 English and Women's, Gender, and 922 00:30:24.690 --> 00:30:26.099 Sexuality Studies at Yale 923 00:30:26.100 --> 00:30:27.269 University. 924 00:30:27.270 --> 00:30:28.469 For more information on the Year of 925 00:30:28.470 --> 00:30:29.789 the Humanities and to see our 926 00:30:29.790 --> 00:30:31.679 upcoming events, visit our website 927 00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:32.680 at www.humanities.pitt.edu.
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