Norman, Willie, April 9, 1976, tape 2, side 1

Jon Eric Johnson: Okay. Sociologists have said in the past that the Jewish community is closest to the Black community. What are your views on that? Willie C. Norman: Uh, it's according to how you look at it. Economically, uh, the Jewish community-- years ago, the Jews used to have a grocery store on every corner in the Black community. Okay. That's what made them close. Business. If the Jew didn't have a store, he had a pack on his back going from house to house. He went to the Black community. Economics again. Okay. Uh, if he had a grocery store, I mean, a department store on the edge of town. He got close to the Black community as he could get. He monitored to the Black community. Economics again. Okay. Now we get away from economics. The Jew made a lot of money with the Black people. I remember years ago when the Ragman would come through the community with a horse and a wagon. He come through the Black community. Rags and old iron. Right? Scrap Iron. Rags. Black community or the poor White community. Okay? He didn't go to Squirrel Hill or Sewickley. Okay, now we get out of the economic community. We get into social aspect of this thing. Religious aspect of this thing. There's no relationship in my way of thinking that the Jew is so close they related to the Black community socially or religiously.

Norman: No relationship whatsoever. Entirely a new, different world. The Black man is out of his league with the Jew economically, socially, and religiously. So anyone would tell you that it's just leading you up a blind alley. This is my thinking. Now, you can take it one step further. The Jew will break his neck to keep a Black man from a Jew woman. But he likes the Black woman. After the sun goes down. If you get what I'm saying. Johnson: I get it. Norman: Okay. Now, I have never seen this. Now the Jews do contribute to Black causes, but the Jews typify themselves as being the most persecuted people on earth. But this is a, this is a, this is a thing that they use. To me, it's a gimmick. It's-- to me it's a gimmick. And I can't buy all that. Johnson: To my listening professors. We're not, uh, staging an anti-Semitic session here-- Norman: No, I'm not anti. I believe in the man being a man to a man. But don't give me that story. You know, that I'm your brother. Hell, you're not my brother. I don't believe in that. Johnson: What did your parents teach you about color consciousness? Norman: Uh, you see, my parents were like I stated, my mother was an illiterate. They were born and raised on a farm in Georgia.

Norman: And they always believed for years and years that this is a White man's world, you know. And we should stay in our place. And I never altogether accepted that after I became a man. And we used to rap about it. We used to talk about it. And my stepfather was a good-- hard working. He worked 40 years at Union Switch and Signal over there in Swissvale. And the White man was his king, his boss. He was just whitewashed, I used to say, you know. In the vernacular, he was brainwashed that the White man is his superior because he was he was brought up and raised up that way. And he was just, in the vernacular, again, a good nigger. But I'm not a good nigger. I can't see it that way. I just don't see it. I think a man should be judged on his moral values, his ability to do a thing and given a free rein to do it. But he should have moral scruples. You know, he's got to be morally upright. I believe in that. Johnson: How do you feel about the the Amos, Amos 'N' Andy, uh, uh, television shows when they were on and what changes have you noticed about Blacks on TV's and on TV today? Norman: Um, for a long time, you know, uh, TV just forgot about Blacks.

Norman: You know, when TV first became popular, when we had the ten inch screen, uh, Blacks were still in the racist, racist American society. And Blacks had their place. Black professionals would be shown on TV and applauded, given their check, and sent out the back door. But these things are changing now. Getting back to Andy 'N' Amos, we call them Andy and Amos. You call them Amos and Andy. Okay. Now getting back to Andy 'N' Amos. Andy 'N' Amos depicted the Black community very good. Because we had this type of prestigious Black who only was thinking of himself. You see, prestige and power, economic power, political power, social power, or whatever power you may refer to. There's a difference. Prestige don't mean a damn thing. Prestige is just an abstract term. And these were the Amos 'N' Andy people. We still call them that in the Black community, people looking for prestige. That's the Amos 'N' Andy people, understand? Now people looking for power and usable forces to upgrade the Black community. This is the type of people that we're concerned with and we should be concerned with in the Black community. Johnson: What other positive gains or positive measures or steps do you think we should--

Johnson: Implement in the Black community? Specifically Homewood and Brushton that we're most familiar with, at least I am.

Norman: Positive steps to to upgrade this community. Johnson: Yes.

Johnson: That's a very difficult question.

Norman: Boy, that's, that is, that's a problem. That's a problem that has about 16 or 20 outlets. [laughter] And to wrap them up, to wrap them up in one. Um, I don't know. I think, um, I think we've all played this thing called Black Pride in the Black community. I think we've overplayed that. You know, Black is beautiful. You know? Uh, we live in a mixed society, and we're all human beings. All Black this or all White this. I don't, I don't buy all White and all Black. I heard a gentleman say one day we're wall to wall in Homewood now, meaning that it's all Black. I said, brother, you're going to be sorry one of these days you are wall to wall. Your property values went down. Your police protection is gone. Vices are rampant. You know, this wall to wall thing for all Black and all White, I don't buy it. But getting back to what you originally asked me, the Blacks, if they are so proud of being Black, they better start showing it by cleaning up the Black communities themselves. Instead of asking the great White father to help them to clean it up. It's their dirt and it's their responsibility to clean it up. It's their school. It's their responsibility to make those kids go to school and, and be in school to learn. Not to be in school to be raised. The Black community should start raising the Black children. So just turn them out in the streets with a jelly sandwich. There's where we're missing the boat.

Johnson: Do you remember the racial disturbances? I remember the ones primarily in the late 60s. What are your views on this? Do you feel as though the Black people should have resorted to means of physical violence, or do you feel as though they should have patterned themself after Dr. Martin Luther King in the sense of being non-violent?

Norman: Uh, I think the nonviolent approach was was the better approach than the violent, the wraparound approach. But some of this had to come about. You see, some of this had to come about. Now, the Black people have been down on their knees praying in this country to God for deliverance and for the White man to deliver them for, say, two, 300 years. And they didn't get the first base. Now, some violence, I think, was necessary, but I don't approve of a total violent program. We're about 30. We're about 33 or 35 million strong in the United States. But we control nothing. If violence should erupt, we control nothing. The system has been set up so that we don't control it. It's not just accidental. None of this is accidental. Okay, now. But Martin Luther King, the NAACP, the Urban League and the Black Coalition and all of that, as I stated before, we're too fragmented with no central leadership at the top with imagination enough to organize the Black forces. Whether it be making a viable force, whether it be economically, politically or what have you. We just don't have it. And like I said earlier, these things don't just happen. We're not just accidentally out of it where weaponry is, is concerned. It's it's a planned thing. Now, we got to we've got to start planning to have a central leadership community for the entire Black population of the United States and adhere to instructions from this, this head at the top, which was so fragmented. If you look around, we were so fragmented in this city until we couldn't get together and, and do anything. Socially, politically or economically.

Johnson: It's interesting that you mentioned fragmentation in Pittsburgh in the Black community. You know, what can we do? You know, I mean, I notice myself that Pittsburgh's Black communities are the Hill District, Homewood and Beltzhoover and Northside, and that's it really, just about. Norman: Yeah. Johnson: Uh, you know, what can we do to to strengthen the Black political movements, the Black social movements here in Pittsburgh? What can be done?

Norman: I can tell you one, one avenue that we can take to start it. Uh, I made mention of the fact that the Christian church. As we know it. It's an organized Christianity, okay? It's organized. Now we have the Black Baptist, Methodist. You name it, we got them. Black. Every Sunday morning in this city of Pittsburgh. The Black preachers stand in the pulpit and talk to the Black community. But they are all on their separate ego trip, I'll say. Now, if the Black preachers in this city would start organizing the Black people in this city or in other cities under one roof with one guideline, one program. Then we could become a very strong, strong force in this city. I'm just saying. This city, or in this county. Then we could, we could start to be coming together. But I again, I returned to that same statement. We're too fragmented. Everybody's doing their own thing. You know, this is my little candy bank. This is my little thing. If I get out and get, get mixed up with you guys, I might blow this. That's that's that's the problem. They want us fragmented. I mean, the establishment. The establishment wants us to stay fragmented, and they'll put funds into a community to keep us fragmented through a HBCIA, Better Block, the Black churches with daycare centers and stuff like that. We don't-- we shouldn't have to have those. We should be able to take care of our own. We shouldn't have to have those things. There's thousands of dollars funneled into the Black community with all kinds of little fancy organizations. I helped structure one. I walked away from it after I found out which way it was going. Fact

Johnson: Fact. That was the organization that was in the Homewood Boston area. That's right.

Norman: I helped structure that organization. Yeah, I was the chairman of the Homewood Brushton Alliance. That was a group of local, uh, community organizations. And we we decided to make a mass base organization out of it. So we did. We dismantled the Homewood Brushton Alliance and made fat. And when the preachers got control of it, they went down the drain for money. Fighting over money. The local ministry.

Johnson: You-- since you've been here in Pittsburgh. You know, you've been here for a number of years. And over those period of years, do you remember who the most outstanding individuals in the Black community have been?

Norman: In what area?

Johnson: Just in the city as a whole. Norman: I mean--

Norman: You mean in the city as a whole politically? Johnson: Politically.

Johnson: Economically. Socially. Anyone that we feel has had a major impact on the Black community here in Pittsburgh.

Norman: I would have to say I do believe the one individual and in the city of Pittsburgh that made the biggest impact on the Black community in the city of Pittsburgh would have to be Robert L Vann, the man that started and founded the Pittsburgh Courier paper that I had referenced to earlier. He had a tremendous impact on the the Black thinking. See, a paper is a powerful weapon, a very powerful weapon. However, he did turn that paper into a political thing for his personal gain, but he did have a tremendous impact on the Black community. I would have to say Robert L. Vann.

Johnson: Since Dr. Martin Luther King's movement, the younger Black movement has taken over. Do you, as an elder Black, see any positive measures that have been implemented by them? And what is your general--

Norman: By the young Blacks? Johnson: Yes.

Johnson: What is your general reaction to their--

Norman: Uh, I'm involved now with some young Blacks. Uh, they call themselves intellectuals. However, I think a lot of them are self-anointed intellectuals. Uh, that are beginning to pool their thinking. They're beginning to pool their brain gray matter, and they're beginning to structure some togetherness, uh, for the, for the Black people in the city. Uh, right now, I think we're beginning to move in the right direction. They're also beginning to pool some of their financial resources in the uplifting of other Blacks that didn't have the opportunity that they're enjoying today, which is a good sign. If they pool their mental resources and their financial resources in that direction, uh, voluntarily, I think they're sincere. And I'm watching this very closely from, from within. I'm within, I'm within the confines of this, this movement. And I think it will be a worthwhile movement. If it isn't, then I'll be the first to say no and I'll tell who is involved just what I think about it and why it is going awry. If I can detect it soon enough.

Johnson: As a parent and as a Black man. What is the most important things that you look forward to passing on to your children? And what do you what would you like them to accomplish in their lifetime?

Norman: The thing that I would like to leave is a documentary of some kind somewhere, uh, for Marcel and the rest of them to look at and say, well, that Daddy wasn't all bad. I don't care what it is. I'm going to try to leave something in their minds, uh, about honesty and about working for a living. Don't stand around and beg. Get out and work. I've already shown them several work projects where I was involved. My activities, my participation. They've driven down and watched me work right on the job site in construction. And this is where it's at. They've got to get out and work for a living. They can't sit around and look for handouts or leech off of other people or other relatives. You've got to make it, you know, by qualifying yourself first, you know, like you're trying to do now and get on out there and make it. This is the thing I hope I can instill in them. And if they can-- if they can get that much out of my big mouth and my my activities and watching me and participate with me, they participate with me now in my election. They, they do that. They participate me in local political elections, in the community I get involved in. And this is, this is the thing I want them to do, too. I want them to participate. I want them to be honest in their efforts and very sincere. And if they don't feel there's justification in them being involved in this program, getting another one. And keep on trying to do something worthwhile. Johnson: Very well put.

Johnson: Okay. We're just about finished here. Is there anything else that you'd wish to discuss? I mean, would you like to reflect on any element of the Black community? State, local, national? Anything that may come to mind? Anything that you feel as though may be constructive? Relevant?

Norman: I would like to, uh, reflect my thinking on the political situation that we're having across the country today. That is the nomination of the various candidates for the presidency. I think it's a big joke for Labor. I'm talking from Labor's point of view, uh, to get really involved in this thing and to say, well, this is going to be our man, whether it be Carter, Johnson, Ford, or Humphrey. These men may all have a certain amount of dedication to labor. Okay, but. If Carter is elected or if Humphrey is elected. If Ford is elected. Excuse me. I don't care who he is. Under the present structure that our government is run under today, supposedly by a representative government, elected by the people. For the people. You know, the format for this government is not going to be laid down and drawn up by these people that we elect. Do you hear what I'm saying? Now, the reason I say that is this. The structure that controls the economy of this country is going to call the shots for the format. They've been doing it for years and they'll continue to do it. Now I'm getting back to Labor. Labor's involvement in this thing. If a Labor man like we'll say Humphrey is elected, the format is going to be laid down by the same people.

Norman: Now Labor should have its own convention. Labor should have its own delegates at the convention from the various local unions or from the various district councils to elect their president-- presidential candidate, their vice presidential candidate from the ranks of labor. Not labor throwing in behind Humphrey. Not labor throwing in behind Johnson or Jackson, rather. Scoop Jackson or either Carter. Labor should have a party. Labor should have a candidate of its own choosing, a vice presidential candidate of its own choosing, and have a platform, a program geared up by Labor and supported by Labor, just like big business is doing. This is what I'm trying to say. If I ever get to-- if I ever get to the position at any labor conference, if I'm elected, this is going to be my pitch. We're, we're supporting a program-- diagram laid out by big business. I don't care whether he's a Democrat or a Republican. The two party system ain't nothing but some stuff. Johnson: Corporate power. Norman: Corporate power, the military industrial complex and what else have you. That's what it is. Labor has got to choose its own-- make it own candidates, elect their own candidates, fund their own programs, have their own programs, and go by their own program.

Johnson: Okay. One final question here. It's 1976. The economy is seemingly getting better. Is the, uh. Very soon we will be celebrating the 200th anniversary of this country. Norman: Yeah. Johnson: Uh, as a Black man. Do you feel as though Blacks should participate in the celebration, or do you feel as though we should sit back on our hands and do nothing?

Norman: Oh, I think we should participate. We're a mixed society, although we are a racist society. Okay. You have to work with what you have. You have to work within the bounds boundaries of what you have. So participation. I think it's important for the Black people. Crispus Attucks was was was supposed to be the first man to to die in the Revolutionary War who was a Black man. But we don't read it in our history books. We read it in Black history. Okay. Now, we know that history is a lie agreed upon by certain authorities. Okay. We know this. And we know a lot of other things that were not taught in our public schools. So to participate, sure, we should participate, if this is what you're asking me.

Johnson: Well, this has been a most enjoyable and enlightening interview, and I appreciate you taking the time. Norman: I'm glad to be available. Johnson: From your life and your family. And, uh, I just hope my professor appreciates it. [laughter]

Johnson: Okay. Thank you very much. Norman: That's good.

Johnson: That's fantastic.