Miracle-Working in the Pandemic: An Interview with Christopher Nygren

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Hello and welcome to Episode 6 of

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Season 6 of the Being Human podcast.

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This year we're focusing on

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humanities faculty at the University

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of Pittsburgh and asking how they're

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responding to the crises of 2020 in

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their research, teaching, and their

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lives more broadly.

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This month my guest is Dr.

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Christopher Nygren, professor of art

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history at Pitt.

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Professor Nygren researches the

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intersections of art, religion, and

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culture in the Italian renaissance.

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He's written extensively on

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miracle-working images.

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For example, in his new book,

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Titian's Icons: Tradition, Charisma,

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and Devotion in Renaissance, Italy.

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He's currently working on a project

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that focuses on Italian paintings on

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stone, which emerged in Italy around

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1530.

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Both of these projects show Dr.

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Nygren's interest in questioning

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accepted narratives of modernity,

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for example, that painters were

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seeking to create the illusion of

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reality in their work or that the

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Renaissance involved a broad shift

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towards a more secular world.

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Professor Nygren is also deeply

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invested in working collaboratively

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to explore connections between the

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past and the present.

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He's co-founder of the working group

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Gun Violence and Its Histories,

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which investigates historical

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contexts for gun violence.

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He participates in the Genealogies

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of Modernity Project, which looks at

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histories of modernity to recover

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responses to the present.

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He also works in the field of

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digital humanities and is published

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on the necessary ingredients for

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collaborative digital art history

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projects to succeed.

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Being Human listeners know that I've

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begun my podcast this year by asking

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guests how the crises of 2020 have

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influence their work as a faculty

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member.

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As you'll hear, Professor Nygren's

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experience with one of those crises,

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the Covid-19 pandemic, was

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especially direct.

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And I began by asking him about

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this.

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Yeah. I mean, it has obviously been

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a year like no other.

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I mean,

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as you and I are talking, we went

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into emergency remote education

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almost a year ago, about 11 months

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ago.

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And none of us had any sense of how

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long-protracted this would be.

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And it really has changed

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every aspect of my life, my personal

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life, and had

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a lot of impact on my scholarship.

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My thinking about what it means to

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be a teacher has changed

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considerably.

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We went into emergency remote.

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Everybody tried to do their best for

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the six weeks of the semester or

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whatever that remained.

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I think I acquitted myself pretty

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well in the spring, but

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it was a bumpy ride.

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And then the summer, I

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started off writing a lot in May.

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And then the summer just became

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this kind of weird fever dream.

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June was sort of like mornings

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spent intensively writing, working

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on my second book, and

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then the afternoons marching

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in the George Floyd protests.

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And then July,

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it was intensively writing in the

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morning and then spending the

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afternoon doing all sorts of

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administrative work for the

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university, talking with colleagues

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about how we

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were going to teach well, and

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it was really inspiring to see my

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whole department come together.

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And we all basically just stripped

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our courses down and rebuilt them

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from the studs up.

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And it gave

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me, for instance, a chance to kind

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of just

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push the implode button on a class

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that I've taught many times and

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reformulated in ways that turned out

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to be really fun and exciting.

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Fall sort of set in.

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It was not

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the kind of teaching that I love,

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even though I was

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really proud of the content that I

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put together for the fall.

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I was doing four courses

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remotely, so it was

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a lot of zooms.

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That's a lot of zoom.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. And Chiara, my wife,

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and I were we're really isolated

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pretty strictly.

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And then, when we got to November,

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my mother had a pretty serious heart

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condition. And so,

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I was faced with a quick decision

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about whether to go to Arizona

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or not to try to be

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with my family. And it was

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forced also because this was

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around November 14th.

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Something like that.

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And so I knew if I waited, I would

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be in that kind of Thanksgiving

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travel surge.

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So I decided within

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8 hours to fly out there.

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Thankfully, I was able to isolate

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with a friend of mine, clear

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of negative tests to make sure that

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I was not going to be

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infecting my parents with Covid.

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But it turns out that my mom, who

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had tested negative going into

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the hospital, picked up Covid

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in the hospital.

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And so, as

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I went home to help

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lend a hand at home with my parents

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in recovery,

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my dad and I

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ended up contracting Covid from my

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mom, which

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was a really intense

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period. My parents are both

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right in the heart of the of

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the

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circle of mortality, if we want to

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call it, the bull's eye.

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And so

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it ended up being a really

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intense period.

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They were both hospitalized.

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I thankfully wasn't.

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But it was-- you

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realize just how frightening

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this disease is because the

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course of it is

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different for everyone.

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But it was, for me, the

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worst illness

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I have had, at

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least since I was in a

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neonatal PICU long ago

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and far away.

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The

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scary thing was being able to feel

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my lungs sort of like seize

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up, and

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in a year, that has had a lot

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of moments of kind of reflecting

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from a 30,000 foot level

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about

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who am I?

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Why am I here?

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What am I doing?

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It was one of those moments of

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thinking like, okay,

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this likelihood

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I will make it through this.

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But you're sitting there at 2 a.m.

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with a 102 degree fever, and

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you can feel your right

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lobe of your lung

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just seizing up, and you're

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thinking, "Oh, boy, okay, this is

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serious stuff." And so I say

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that in

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part because I know

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that there is a lot of asymptomatic

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and non symptomatic spread.

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And so people tend to not

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take it seriously. I felt every

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day of Covid, and it

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really kicked

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my butt. And I'm

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still, two months later,

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fatigued and tired in a way I never

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have been in my life ever before.

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And it's given me a lot of--

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so I think

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we'll talk about this, but I

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team-taught with some other faculty

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members a course that was called

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Being Human in the Age of Covid.

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And I wish

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that course was running in the

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spring now because I have a lot more

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personal experience with the virus,

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what it is like,

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what decisions it forces

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on a family unit

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that in

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the fall when we were developing

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that class, it was a great class.

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It was a lot of fun to teach, but it

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was, in the main,

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a kind of intellectual

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exercise of trying to

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make meaning out of a moment of

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crisis and uncertainty.

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Whereas now,

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I definitely have

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some personal experience.

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Yeah.

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When you were in-- I'm curious.

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When you were in Arizona

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going through all of this, one

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of the things that I have heard

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about from

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so many different accounts of people

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firsthand experience with this

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illness so far is a lot about kind

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of what support systems they either

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had or didn't have.

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And I wonder what for you, like,

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what was that experience like?

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You were with your family, kind

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of all going through this together

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in a way. But, like, were

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there people psychologically and

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kind of materially?

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Who was there for you?

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Yeah. I mean, it was really rough

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because my

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sister and her family are out there.

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But the moment that it became

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clear that we had an outbreak that

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was my mom, my dad, and myself, they

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were isolated. Now, my sister's a

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nurse. She sort

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of suited up in PPE a couple of

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times and came over and brought us

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food and things like that.

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But it was really just

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the-- first, it was me and my dad.

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My mom came home from the hospital,

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and that was when my dad ended up

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going into the hospital.

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So it was a kind of

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shifting

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rounds in the house.

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I mean, it was really wonderful to

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spend that time with my parents

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and to be close with them,

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especially because there were

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moments when it felt like it would

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be a last.

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And so, that was really

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sobering but also

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beautiful in its own

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way.

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It was really difficult,

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I know, on my wife, who was here in

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Pittsburgh listening to this whole

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00:09:31.410 --> 00:09:32.579
thing unfold.

290
00:09:32.580 --> 00:09:34.679
And I got to say, my

291
00:09:34.680 --> 00:09:35.999
colleagues and my department were

292
00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:38.030
great. They were reaching out and

293
00:09:39.210 --> 00:09:40.919
sending GrubHub and that sort of

294
00:09:40.920 --> 00:09:42.269
thing. Like there are many ways in

295
00:09:42.270 --> 00:09:44.669
which people can reach out from afar

296
00:09:44.670 --> 00:09:47.219
in ways that they could not before.

297
00:09:47.220 --> 00:09:49.289
But the challenge of

298
00:09:49.290 --> 00:09:51.119
this disease is that the

299
00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:53.120
infectiousness of it means that

300
00:09:54.500 --> 00:09:56.389
you have to

301
00:09:56.390 --> 00:09:58.279
cut off physical

302
00:09:58.280 --> 00:09:59.809
contact with other people when you

303
00:09:59.810 --> 00:10:01.219
have an outbreak. And that made it

304
00:10:01.220 --> 00:10:02.220
really

305
00:10:03.590 --> 00:10:04.590
difficult

306
00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:09.120
to sort of-- because

307
00:10:11.290 --> 00:10:13.449
I was trying to be a caregiver to my

308
00:10:13.450 --> 00:10:14.979
elderly parents at the same time

309
00:10:14.980 --> 00:10:15.849
that I was going through the

310
00:10:15.850 --> 00:10:17.049
disease, and the disease was just

311
00:10:17.050 --> 00:10:18.050
kicking my butt.

312
00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:21.639
There were moments when I was just

313
00:10:21.640 --> 00:10:23.079
really hoping that somebody could

314
00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:24.999
come and give

315
00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:26.289
me a breather for a little bit.

316
00:10:26.290 --> 00:10:28.479
But that was not possible.

317
00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:29.508
And that's where you

318
00:10:32.590 --> 00:10:33.862
start to realize, like

319
00:10:35.410 --> 00:10:37.329
I'm now a tenured professor.

320
00:10:38.410 --> 00:10:40.450
I have all sorts of

321
00:10:42.040 --> 00:10:43.419
privileges and abilities.

322
00:10:43.420 --> 00:10:45.249
The ability to finish the

323
00:10:45.250 --> 00:10:47.199
semester remotely from Arizona

324
00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:49.119
was something that I was grateful

325
00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:50.120
to have.

326
00:10:50.860 --> 00:10:52.689
And it really does make you start

327
00:10:52.690 --> 00:10:54.849
to realize the

328
00:10:54.850 --> 00:10:56.559
difficulty of dealing with a family

329
00:10:56.560 --> 00:10:58.209
outbreak if you don't have that

330
00:10:58.210 --> 00:11:00.459
ability to kind of travel and move

331
00:11:00.460 --> 00:11:02.199
and be flexible.

332
00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:03.610
And this is where it's--

333
00:11:05.620 --> 00:11:06.620
yeah, I mean

334
00:11:09.130 --> 00:11:10.689
because it disrupts everything.

335
00:11:10.690 --> 00:11:11.690
It just disrupts

336
00:11:12.640 --> 00:11:15.009
every aspect of life for

337
00:11:15.010 --> 00:11:16.405
a solid 21 days if not

338
00:11:18.870 --> 00:11:19.870
more.

339
00:11:20.350 --> 00:11:21.350
Yeah.

340
00:11:22.330 --> 00:11:24.399
You mentioned kind of like the--

341
00:11:24.400 --> 00:11:25.659
I mean, this has just happened to

342
00:11:25.660 --> 00:11:27.519
you recently,

343
00:11:27.520 --> 00:11:28.779
in a sense, kind of at the end of

344
00:11:28.780 --> 00:11:30.639
the fall semester but before this

345
00:11:30.640 --> 00:11:31.640
one.

346
00:11:32.140 --> 00:11:34.599
Are there ways in which you

347
00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:36.549
are-- I mean, we'll talk about ways

348
00:11:36.550 --> 00:11:38.109
that the pandemic was already

349
00:11:38.110 --> 00:11:39.189
affecting the way you were thinking

350
00:11:39.190 --> 00:11:40.299
about your work and your teaching

351
00:11:40.300 --> 00:11:41.289
and stuff like that? But here,

352
00:11:41.290 --> 00:11:43.089
having had this direct experience

353
00:11:43.090 --> 00:11:44.485
with it, are there ways that you're

354
00:11:46.390 --> 00:11:48.339
thinking yet again in new

355
00:11:48.340 --> 00:11:50.229
ways about kind of your

356
00:11:50.230 --> 00:11:51.399
approach to your teaching and your

357
00:11:51.400 --> 00:11:52.449
writing or anything like that?

358
00:11:53.980 --> 00:11:55.929
So, I mean, especially in terms

359
00:11:55.930 --> 00:11:58.299
of teaching, I am doing

360
00:11:58.300 --> 00:12:00.339
my best to live

361
00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:02.499
this year, this academic

362
00:12:02.500 --> 00:12:04.159
year, a kind of generosity toward

363
00:12:04.160 --> 00:12:05.160
students.

364
00:12:06.670 --> 00:12:07.509
What's that look like?

365
00:12:07.510 --> 00:12:09.699
What kinds of-- I don't know, like

366
00:12:09.700 --> 00:12:11.169
in terms of in the classroom

367
00:12:11.170 --> 00:12:12.159
setting, what's that look like?

368
00:12:12.160 --> 00:12:14.139
Well, I mean, it looks like, in

369
00:12:14.140 --> 00:12:16.599
adding at the top of the

370
00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:19.239
syllabus, a statement.

371
00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:20.709
I don't have the syllabus in front

372
00:12:20.710 --> 00:12:22.329
of me, but actually, I do.

373
00:12:22.330 --> 00:12:23.770
I have a printed-out version here.

374
00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:27.369
We're living through-- and this was

375
00:12:27.370 --> 00:12:29.859
a sort of version that I think

376
00:12:29.860 --> 00:12:31.479
some of my colleagues, I think Ruth

377
00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:33.519
Mostern, might have been the one who

378
00:12:33.520 --> 00:12:35.709
posted an original version of this.

379
00:12:35.710 --> 00:12:37.150
And I sort of took it

380
00:12:38.290 --> 00:12:40.149
and turned it into something

381
00:12:40.150 --> 00:12:41.150
more personal or more personalized

382
00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:44.120
for me.

383
00:12:44.530 --> 00:12:45.609
"We're living through tumultuous

384
00:12:45.610 --> 00:12:47.169
times, a moment of extreme anxiety

385
00:12:47.170 --> 00:12:48.579
and precarity. The class brings us

386
00:12:48.580 --> 00:12:50.499
together as a community, a community

387
00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:52.299
in which our roles are at least

388
00:12:52.300 --> 00:12:53.619
provisionally defined for us.

389
00:12:53.620 --> 00:12:54.489
I'm the professor. You're the

390
00:12:54.490 --> 00:12:55.299
students.

391
00:12:55.300 --> 00:12:57.039
However, we are fellow human beings

392
00:12:57.040 --> 00:12:57.939
first and foremost.

393
00:12:57.940 --> 00:12:59.979
Your well-being and your welfare and

394
00:12:59.980 --> 00:13:01.479
the welfare of our shared civil

395
00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:03.609
society and our collective role

396
00:13:03.610 --> 00:13:05.319
as citizens are more important to me

397
00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:07.119
than whether or not you complete the

398
00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:08.979
obligations of this course in

399
00:13:08.980 --> 00:13:10.299
the most exemplary fashion and

400
00:13:10.300 --> 00:13:11.919
according to precise deadlines.

401
00:13:11.920 --> 00:13:12.969
Please take care of yourselves.

402
00:13:12.970 --> 00:13:14.049
Take care of the ones you love and

403
00:13:14.050 --> 00:13:15.399
communicate if you need

404
00:13:15.400 --> 00:13:17.349
accommodations." And I

405
00:13:17.350 --> 00:13:18.909
try to tell this to students every

406
00:13:18.910 --> 00:13:20.619
day like this is not the semester

407
00:13:20.620 --> 00:13:22.389
when if you miss a deadline by 6

408
00:13:22.390 --> 00:13:23.390
hours, I'm going to

409
00:13:24.820 --> 00:13:26.649
knock points off because I have

410
00:13:26.650 --> 00:13:28.809
seen-- and I knew this

411
00:13:28.810 --> 00:13:30.609
in the fall before I had this

412
00:13:30.610 --> 00:13:31.610
experience.

413
00:13:32.970 --> 00:13:34.589
You see how quickly things can

414
00:13:34.590 --> 00:13:36.419
spiral out of control.

415
00:13:36.420 --> 00:13:38.339
And if somebody has

416
00:13:38.340 --> 00:13:40.187
just received a positive Covid

417
00:13:40.188 --> 00:13:42.149
test, I don't want their first

418
00:13:42.150 --> 00:13:43.559
thought to be, "Oh, I need to email

419
00:13:43.560 --> 00:13:44.756
Professor Nygren to tell him.

420
00:13:46.110 --> 00:13:47.729
The last thing we want is to add to

421
00:13:47.730 --> 00:13:48.809
the stress of this moment.

422
00:13:48.810 --> 00:13:50.699
Yes. Figure out everything

423
00:13:50.700 --> 00:13:52.139
that needs to be done.

424
00:13:52.140 --> 00:13:53.429
What is your support system?

425
00:13:53.430 --> 00:13:55.169
Who do you need to be with at that

426
00:13:55.170 --> 00:13:56.969
moment? And then, we'll figure it

427
00:13:56.970 --> 00:13:57.970
out. And so,

428
00:14:01.590 --> 00:14:03.570
students have to do the work.

429
00:14:04.650 --> 00:14:05.999
It's not like people are just

430
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.559
randomly getting passing grades.

431
00:14:07.560 --> 00:14:09.449
But there

432
00:14:09.450 --> 00:14:11.279
is a real sense that a lot of

433
00:14:11.280 --> 00:14:13.259
the things that seemed like

434
00:14:13.260 --> 00:14:16.169
priorities in previous years

435
00:14:16.170 --> 00:14:17.999
are just not as important

436
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.499
right now.

437
00:14:19.500 --> 00:14:21.509
And whether or not they will return

438
00:14:21.510 --> 00:14:23.850
to being as important, I'm skeptical

439
00:14:25.290 --> 00:14:27.509
because I'm finding that it actually

440
00:14:27.510 --> 00:14:28.510
allows for

441
00:14:30.610 --> 00:14:32.979
a kind of different approach that is

442
00:14:32.980 --> 00:14:35.169
a little bit more rewarding.

443
00:14:35.170 --> 00:14:36.969
At least, that's the sense that I

444
00:14:36.970 --> 00:14:37.970
get.

445
00:14:38.500 --> 00:14:40.449
And so that's one way that

446
00:14:40.450 --> 00:14:42.255
it's really changed the teaching.

447
00:14:43.930 --> 00:14:44.930
As

448
00:14:45.940 --> 00:14:47.169
a historian of art, somebody who's

449
00:14:47.170 --> 00:14:48.170
trained to think historically, I

450
00:14:51.300 --> 00:14:52.300
often had a

451
00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:56.690
hesitancy to make

452
00:14:57.710 --> 00:14:59.839
historical parallels to

453
00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:00.840
draw or

454
00:15:02.920 --> 00:15:03.920
to project sort

455
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:07.389
of modern mindsets onto

456
00:15:07.390 --> 00:15:09.069
premodernity or anything else like

457
00:15:09.070 --> 00:15:10.809
that. But one of the things that

458
00:15:10.810 --> 00:15:13.149
this does do is it drives

459
00:15:13.150 --> 00:15:15.819
home some serious continuities

460
00:15:15.820 --> 00:15:18.609
of what it means to be a human being

461
00:15:18.610 --> 00:15:20.949
and what it means to make meaning

462
00:15:20.950 --> 00:15:22.479
at a moment when it looks like

463
00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:24.369
everything is collapsing around

464
00:15:24.370 --> 00:15:25.539
you.

465
00:15:25.540 --> 00:15:26.815
And so

466
00:15:28.940 --> 00:15:31.129
what it means to study

467
00:15:31.130 --> 00:15:32.130
history

468
00:15:33.020 --> 00:15:34.909
is to study, for me at

469
00:15:34.910 --> 00:15:36.799
least, is to study human beings in

470
00:15:36.800 --> 00:15:37.729
time. Right?

471
00:15:37.730 --> 00:15:39.559
How they have responded

472
00:15:39.560 --> 00:15:40.909
at various moments.

473
00:15:40.910 --> 00:15:42.889
And there are ways in which

474
00:15:44.210 --> 00:15:46.039
that has enlivened

475
00:15:46.040 --> 00:15:47.419
this.

476
00:15:47.420 --> 00:15:48.979
He gestures around to everything.

477
00:15:48.980 --> 00:15:50.929
The pandemic has enlivened that

478
00:15:50.930 --> 00:15:52.070
project for me

479
00:15:53.150 --> 00:15:55.249
because I have started

480
00:15:55.250 --> 00:15:56.250
to feel

481
00:15:57.730 --> 00:15:59.739
a kind of

482
00:15:59.740 --> 00:16:01.629
relatability or kinship

483
00:16:01.630 --> 00:16:03.549
with previous generations in a way

484
00:16:03.550 --> 00:16:05.499
that, frankly,

485
00:16:05.500 --> 00:16:07.929
was often kind of hard

486
00:16:07.930 --> 00:16:08.986
before because

487
00:16:11.410 --> 00:16:13.089
I grew up at that at the end of the

488
00:16:13.090 --> 00:16:15.010
Cold War, the moment of like

489
00:16:17.350 --> 00:16:18.549
the American hegemon.

490
00:16:18.550 --> 00:16:21.069
We had things relatively

491
00:16:21.070 --> 00:16:22.959
easy until the financial crash

492
00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:24.099
of 2008.

493
00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:25.989
We've just not had

494
00:16:25.990 --> 00:16:26.990
the kind of

495
00:16:28.650 --> 00:16:30.569
world-historical struggles

496
00:16:30.570 --> 00:16:32.489
that seem to mark a lot

497
00:16:32.490 --> 00:16:33.490
of the periods that, as

498
00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:36.869
a historian of art, led to moments

499
00:16:36.870 --> 00:16:38.759
when human beings produced a lot of

500
00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:40.229
art to try to make sense of what was

501
00:16:40.230 --> 00:16:41.339
happening.

502
00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:43.379
And I can sort of look at those

503
00:16:43.380 --> 00:16:45.569
moments now with a better sense

504
00:16:45.570 --> 00:16:47.609
of what it means to feel

505
00:16:47.610 --> 00:16:49.589
just utterly unsure what

506
00:16:50.610 --> 00:16:52.079
the next week will bring, what the

507
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:54.209
next month will bring, whether

508
00:16:54.210 --> 00:16:55.319
things will ever go back to

509
00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:56.819
something resembling normal.

510
00:16:56.820 --> 00:16:57.979
Like, what are the parts

511
00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:01.319
of a previous life that you want

512
00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:02.659
to try to carry forward?

513
00:17:02.660 --> 00:17:04.199
Those are all things that that I

514
00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:06.064
think have become more acute

515
00:17:07.910 --> 00:17:09.799
in the way that I teach

516
00:17:09.800 --> 00:17:11.239
and also in the questions that I'm

517
00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:12.709
researching.

518
00:17:12.710 --> 00:17:13.710
And there's a way

519
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:16.818
that this has started to chip

520
00:17:16.819 --> 00:17:19.459
at a kind of hesitancy

521
00:17:19.460 --> 00:17:20.460
to make

522
00:17:22.510 --> 00:17:23.559
linkages

523
00:17:25.150 --> 00:17:27.969
or to see us as participating

524
00:17:27.970 --> 00:17:28.970
in a kind of

525
00:17:32.370 --> 00:17:34.349
longer narration of what it means

526
00:17:34.350 --> 00:17:35.759
to be human. Now, of course, like

527
00:17:35.760 --> 00:17:36.899
it's never the same.

528
00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:38.789
The beauty of comparative

529
00:17:38.790 --> 00:17:40.169
history is that it's from the

530
00:17:40.170 --> 00:17:42.149
parallax that emerges from looking

531
00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:44.189
at the contemporary versus

532
00:17:44.190 --> 00:17:45.569
how people responded in previous

533
00:17:45.570 --> 00:17:47.200
moments. But really, I think the

534
00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:52.102
shock and

535
00:17:54.930 --> 00:17:56.759
uneasiness that we have

536
00:17:56.760 --> 00:17:58.409
felt for the last 11 months has

537
00:17:58.410 --> 00:18:00.089
really opened up a whole new

538
00:18:01.770 --> 00:18:02.849
empathy toward

539
00:18:04.260 --> 00:18:06.029
what does it mean to be alive in

540
00:18:06.030 --> 00:18:08.249
1348

541
00:18:08.250 --> 00:18:10.199
or Mexico

542
00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:12.119
City in the 1570s when

543
00:18:12.120 --> 00:18:13.949
they were having a major

544
00:18:13.950 --> 00:18:14.999
pandemic or

545
00:18:17.730 --> 00:18:19.061
a period of protracted war, even.

546
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:21.869
Thirty Years' War or something like

547
00:18:21.870 --> 00:18:23.879
that. So that's where

548
00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:25.739
I think the real payoff for me

549
00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:29.369
has been in just a total reframing.

550
00:18:29.370 --> 00:18:31.319
Yeah, yeah.

551
00:18:31.320 --> 00:18:32.320
That makes sense. I mean,

552
00:18:33.510 --> 00:18:35.609
your research, one of the things

553
00:18:35.610 --> 00:18:37.769
that you focus on--

554
00:18:37.770 --> 00:18:39.209
I mean, your book that you just

555
00:18:39.210 --> 00:18:40.859
published last year, the title of

556
00:18:40.860 --> 00:18:43.019
the book is Titian's Icons:

557
00:18:43.020 --> 00:18:44.909
Tradition, Charisma, and Devotion in

558
00:18:44.910 --> 00:18:45.910
Renaissance Italy.

559
00:18:46.830 --> 00:18:48.839
And that book

560
00:18:50.010 --> 00:18:51.899
focuses on Titian as

561
00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:53.729
a creator of a

562
00:18:53.730 --> 00:18:55.829
miracle-working work

563
00:18:55.830 --> 00:18:57.119
of art. Right? And that's kind of

564
00:18:57.120 --> 00:18:58.319
your starting point. And you kind of

565
00:18:58.320 --> 00:18:59.390
like reconsider his

566
00:19:00.510 --> 00:19:03.029
life and his work as someone who

567
00:19:03.030 --> 00:19:04.799
produced one of these.

568
00:19:04.800 --> 00:19:05.939
But you focused on kind of

569
00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:08.009
miracle-working art and icons

570
00:19:08.010 --> 00:19:09.010
and things like that

571
00:19:09.930 --> 00:19:12.629
in your research for a long time.

572
00:19:12.630 --> 00:19:13.870
And I wonder if

573
00:19:15.750 --> 00:19:18.269
that particular kind of

574
00:19:18.270 --> 00:19:20.399
need for divine intervention

575
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.529
or miracle-working was a

576
00:19:22.530 --> 00:19:23.939
particular way in which you saw

577
00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:25.769
connections to the past

578
00:19:25.770 --> 00:19:27.539
or a kind of a lens through making

579
00:19:27.540 --> 00:19:29.429
those connections that was new for

580
00:19:29.430 --> 00:19:31.439
you over the last 11 months

581
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:32.440
that hadn't been there before?

582
00:19:33.780 --> 00:19:34.629
Absolutely.

583
00:19:34.630 --> 00:19:36.899
I mean, there was this-- so yeah,

584
00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:38.669
I've always been very interested in

585
00:19:38.670 --> 00:19:39.930
miracle-working images

586
00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:42.250
and

587
00:19:43.590 --> 00:19:45.689
the way that they raise

588
00:19:45.690 --> 00:19:47.129
questions about what authorship

589
00:19:47.130 --> 00:19:49.469
means and how a community

590
00:19:49.470 --> 00:19:51.389
invests its hopes and desires

591
00:19:51.390 --> 00:19:52.620
in an object.

592
00:19:53.670 --> 00:19:54.854
And I've been studying that since, I

593
00:19:56.010 --> 00:19:57.839
guess, for 15 years at this point.

594
00:19:58.920 --> 00:19:59.920
And

595
00:20:00.810 --> 00:20:02.789
that was

596
00:20:02.790 --> 00:20:04.739
one of the first moments or

597
00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:06.479
first avenues that allowed me to

598
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:07.480
start to see

599
00:20:08.520 --> 00:20:10.079
the solidarity of the ages.

600
00:20:10.080 --> 00:20:12.149
There was this moment that Pope

601
00:20:12.150 --> 00:20:13.559
Francis did this

602
00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:17.579
prayer event on

603
00:20:17.580 --> 00:20:18.580
the

604
00:20:19.650 --> 00:20:22.289
piazza in front of San Pietro.

605
00:20:22.290 --> 00:20:23.609
This was end of March.

606
00:20:23.610 --> 00:20:25.439
I don't remember the exact date,

607
00:20:26.550 --> 00:20:28.409
but he brought on to

608
00:20:28.410 --> 00:20:30.749
the piazza-- and it was just eerie

609
00:20:30.750 --> 00:20:32.609
because the piazza-- you'd normally

610
00:20:32.610 --> 00:20:34.469
see this piazza for his

611
00:20:34.470 --> 00:20:36.659
Urbi et Orbi and the Wednesday

612
00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:37.479
blessings and whatnot.

613
00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:39.539
100,000 people easily packed

614
00:20:39.540 --> 00:20:41.639
in there, maybe 200,000 even

615
00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:42.749
more.

616
00:20:42.750 --> 00:20:44.609
And it was empty, except

617
00:20:44.610 --> 00:20:46.829
for a handful of police cars

618
00:20:46.830 --> 00:20:48.781
with blue lights that were flashing,

619
00:20:48.782 --> 00:20:50.669
and it

620
00:20:50.670 --> 00:20:51.479
was raining.

621
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:53.039
And there was this canopy.

622
00:20:53.040 --> 00:20:54.821
And under the canopy were these two

623
00:20:56.140 --> 00:20:58.389
images that I

624
00:20:58.390 --> 00:20:59.822
have recognized.

625
00:21:01.180 --> 00:21:02.619
I saw them and recognized them

626
00:21:02.620 --> 00:21:04.659
immediately as two super important

627
00:21:04.660 --> 00:21:05.729
images in the history of the

628
00:21:08.670 --> 00:21:10.199
plague in Rome.

629
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:11.669
Right? One is a painting, one is a

630
00:21:11.670 --> 00:21:12.749
sculpted crucifix.

631
00:21:12.750 --> 00:21:14.363
And one was purportedly

632
00:21:16.530 --> 00:21:18.449
used in the

633
00:21:18.450 --> 00:21:20.459
Middle Ages around the year

634
00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:22.319
600 to bring an end to a

635
00:21:22.320 --> 00:21:24.209
plague. And another was used

636
00:21:24.210 --> 00:21:26.099
in 1523 to bring

637
00:21:26.100 --> 00:21:27.419
an end to a plague.

638
00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:28.420
And those

639
00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:31.649
were things that I have

640
00:21:31.650 --> 00:21:33.689
studied as an art historian.

641
00:21:33.690 --> 00:21:34.679
And so you sort of read the

642
00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:36.749
documents, and you line up

643
00:21:36.750 --> 00:21:38.789
where the documents coincide.

644
00:21:38.790 --> 00:21:40.259
The documents written

645
00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:43.319
centuries later line up or

646
00:21:43.320 --> 00:21:44.789
don't line up with the documents we

647
00:21:44.790 --> 00:21:46.229
have from the actual moment.

648
00:21:46.230 --> 00:21:47.759
And you sort of realize, okay, so

649
00:21:47.760 --> 00:21:49.109
certain elements of this might work,

650
00:21:49.110 --> 00:21:50.110
certain elements won't.

651
00:21:51.360 --> 00:21:52.360
But to see

652
00:21:53.670 --> 00:21:56.459
those objects enlisted,

653
00:21:56.460 --> 00:21:57.779
or in one case, might have been a

654
00:21:57.780 --> 00:21:59.279
copy. We're still actually not sure

655
00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:00.280
if it was the real thing

656
00:22:01.110 --> 00:22:02.519
because it is one of the rarest

657
00:22:02.520 --> 00:22:04.259
paintings in Rome.

658
00:22:04.260 --> 00:22:05.579
And so bringing it under the rain

659
00:22:05.580 --> 00:22:07.499
would have been a real risk.

660
00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:09.599
But seeing those things brought

661
00:22:09.600 --> 00:22:10.600
out and

662
00:22:12.300 --> 00:22:14.609
the pope sort of invoking

663
00:22:14.610 --> 00:22:16.859
them was a moment

664
00:22:16.860 --> 00:22:18.509
where also I started to realize,

665
00:22:18.510 --> 00:22:19.510
like,

666
00:22:20.410 --> 00:22:22.179
it is one of the things that I

667
00:22:22.180 --> 00:22:23.180
think--

668
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:29.469
I have tended, and

669
00:22:29.470 --> 00:22:30.639
a lot of people working on

670
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:32.259
miracle-working images have tended

671
00:22:32.260 --> 00:22:34.089
to focus on a

672
00:22:34.090 --> 00:22:37.179
kind of theological explanation.

673
00:22:37.180 --> 00:22:38.979
And what that really drove home was

674
00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:40.517
that it was a civic,

675
00:22:42.840 --> 00:22:44.939
kind of primal cry

676
00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:46.889
for let

677
00:22:46.890 --> 00:22:47.879
this pass.

678
00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:48.880
Right?

679
00:22:50.250 --> 00:22:51.749
And, of course, in the media

680
00:22:51.750 --> 00:22:53.669
environment, it was

681
00:22:53.670 --> 00:22:55.259
not just civic. It wasn't just Rome.

682
00:22:55.260 --> 00:22:57.119
It was a global cry to let this

683
00:22:57.120 --> 00:22:58.019
thing pass.

684
00:22:58.020 --> 00:22:59.879
But that really sort of broke

685
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:00.880
down

686
00:23:01.890 --> 00:23:03.929
a sense that I had had through

687
00:23:03.930 --> 00:23:05.459
a lot of my career that the

688
00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:07.109
miracle-working images were a thing

689
00:23:07.110 --> 00:23:08.759
of the past.

690
00:23:08.760 --> 00:23:10.400
And no,

691
00:23:11.430 --> 00:23:13.679
most people tend not to

692
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:15.749
invest the same hopes

693
00:23:15.750 --> 00:23:18.029
in an image that someone in 1348

694
00:23:18.030 --> 00:23:19.889
or 1523 would do.

695
00:23:19.890 --> 00:23:21.389
But it was a moment where you

696
00:23:21.390 --> 00:23:23.039
realize, like, we've all got this

697
00:23:23.040 --> 00:23:25.529
sense of just total, paralyzing

698
00:23:25.530 --> 00:23:26.530
anxiety, and

699
00:23:28.840 --> 00:23:30.759
giving us a target

700
00:23:30.760 --> 00:23:33.159
to sort of throw it at

701
00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:34.767
is, in its own way,

702
00:23:36.270 --> 00:23:38.219
a unifying civic gesture.

703
00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:40.919
And so this is-- I think

704
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:42.209
one of the things that has become

705
00:23:42.210 --> 00:23:43.259
also clear to me,

706
00:23:44.820 --> 00:23:46.739
in ways that it never was before,

707
00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:48.779
that for a long

708
00:23:48.780 --> 00:23:50.399
time in the 20th century, they

709
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:51.839
talked about how or there were

710
00:23:51.840 --> 00:23:52.979
arguments about how there was a

711
00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:55.409
major stylistic shift in painting

712
00:23:55.410 --> 00:23:57.479
after the Black Death.

713
00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:58.859
And people have sort of looked at

714
00:23:58.860 --> 00:23:59.699
them and they're like, well, not

715
00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:00.989
really, actually, because the

716
00:24:00.990 --> 00:24:02.399
painters who survive paint more or

717
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:03.359
less the same way.

718
00:24:03.360 --> 00:24:05.249
What does happen is that there is

719
00:24:05.250 --> 00:24:08.039
a change in iconography,

720
00:24:08.040 --> 00:24:10.139
and you have the emergence of more

721
00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:11.819
images that are related to plague

722
00:24:11.820 --> 00:24:13.619
and more of these kind of what we

723
00:24:13.620 --> 00:24:15.389
might think of as like civic shield

724
00:24:15.390 --> 00:24:16.390
images where

725
00:24:17.610 --> 00:24:19.739
it shows the city being protected

726
00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:21.389
from the plague and it also served

727
00:24:21.390 --> 00:24:22.695
as this like velcro

728
00:24:24.390 --> 00:24:26.219
platform onto which the city

729
00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:27.989
could just throw its anxieties and

730
00:24:27.990 --> 00:24:29.279
its worries and its fears.

731
00:24:29.280 --> 00:24:31.409
And it became a place where

732
00:24:31.410 --> 00:24:33.419
people could go

733
00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:35.459
and congregate and say, "I'm scared.

734
00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:36.869
You're scared.

735
00:24:36.870 --> 00:24:38.849
Let's look at that thing together,

736
00:24:38.850 --> 00:24:40.680
and we'll feel scared together."

737
00:24:42.330 --> 00:24:43.529
Well, I wonder, one of the things--

738
00:24:43.530 --> 00:24:45.299
this is kind of a question that

739
00:24:45.300 --> 00:24:47.309
maybe broadens our

740
00:24:47.310 --> 00:24:48.359
conversation a little bit.

741
00:24:48.360 --> 00:24:50.639
But one of the things that I read

742
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:52.379
about in researching for our

743
00:24:52.380 --> 00:24:53.399
conversation here because I was

744
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:54.689
thinking about miracle-working and

745
00:24:54.690 --> 00:24:56.549
people turning to miracles

746
00:24:56.550 --> 00:24:57.689
in exactly the way that you just

747
00:24:57.690 --> 00:24:58.690
said, kind of

748
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.648
for relief, for hope, or for

749
00:25:01.649 --> 00:25:03.359
whatever it is in times of trouble.

750
00:25:03.360 --> 00:25:05.399
And I just came upon

751
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.339
this survey from 2008,

752
00:25:08.340 --> 00:25:09.509
which was a survey of kind of like

753
00:25:09.510 --> 00:25:11.519
the religious landscape of the U.S.

754
00:25:11.520 --> 00:25:13.049
or what people believe, how many

755
00:25:13.050 --> 00:25:14.249
people believe. Something like that.

756
00:25:14.250 --> 00:25:15.149
Numbers.

757
00:25:15.150 --> 00:25:16.499
And one thing that stood out to me

758
00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:17.969
there is that in this survey in

759
00:25:17.970 --> 00:25:20.369
2008, one-third of Americans,

760
00:25:20.370 --> 00:25:22.079
or 34% or so, reported having

761
00:25:22.080 --> 00:25:24.269
witnessed or experienced

762
00:25:24.270 --> 00:25:26.039
divine healing of an illness or

763
00:25:26.040 --> 00:25:26.909
injury.

764
00:25:26.910 --> 00:25:28.319
Right? This is in 2008.

765
00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:29.519
Right? The number is one-third.

766
00:25:29.520 --> 00:25:31.379
And so I wonder if in your

767
00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:33.209
research-- it makes total

768
00:25:33.210 --> 00:25:34.649
sense to me that in these moments

769
00:25:34.650 --> 00:25:35.969
that we're talking about here, there

770
00:25:35.970 --> 00:25:38.009
would be a more

771
00:25:38.010 --> 00:25:40.919
a deeper reach toward something

772
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:42.059
miraculous that could help or

773
00:25:42.060 --> 00:25:44.309
something like that. But I wonder if

774
00:25:44.310 --> 00:25:46.769
your original impulse to study

775
00:25:46.770 --> 00:25:48.659
miracle-working is

776
00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:50.008
connected in some way to the sense--

777
00:25:50.009 --> 00:25:51.959
to the

778
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:53.129
numbers that are reported in a

779
00:25:53.130 --> 00:25:55.019
survey which may reveal

780
00:25:55.020 --> 00:25:56.279
that, in fact, that's never really

781
00:25:56.280 --> 00:25:58.199
gone away. But it's not that kind of

782
00:25:58.200 --> 00:25:59.699
like as we've become kind of more

783
00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:01.259
modern, we've all just become like

784
00:26:01.260 --> 00:26:02.879
gradually more secular.

785
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:03.989
Right? I mean, that's a really big

786
00:26:03.990 --> 00:26:05.879
number just from like 13 years

787
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:07.739
ago of people who were still

788
00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:09.749
involving divine presence

789
00:26:09.750 --> 00:26:10.769
in their life in a really

790
00:26:10.770 --> 00:26:11.609
fundamental way.

791
00:26:11.610 --> 00:26:12.659
So I don't know. I wonder if that's

792
00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:14.579
kind of like an

793
00:26:14.580 --> 00:26:16.259
interesting kind of something that

794
00:26:16.260 --> 00:26:17.669
motivates your interest in

795
00:26:17.670 --> 00:26:19.529
miracle-working images.

796
00:26:19.530 --> 00:26:21.539
Yeah. I mean, certainly

797
00:26:21.540 --> 00:26:23.394
from my own point of view,

798
00:26:24.990 --> 00:26:26.849
how I ended up on that topic

799
00:26:26.850 --> 00:26:27.850
was

800
00:26:28.770 --> 00:26:30.599
that I knew I loved

801
00:26:30.600 --> 00:26:31.600
Titian. He's

802
00:26:32.580 --> 00:26:34.529
just an amazing painter.

803
00:26:34.530 --> 00:26:36.329
And I had gone into graduate school,

804
00:26:36.330 --> 00:26:38.088
and my doctoral advisor,

805
00:26:39.180 --> 00:26:40.384
I told him my first year, I was

806
00:26:40.385 --> 00:26:41.879
like, "I can't work on Titian

807
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:43.169
because I love this painter, and I

808
00:26:43.170 --> 00:26:44.759
don't want to ruin it." And he

809
00:26:44.760 --> 00:26:45.569
looked at me, and he was like,

810
00:26:45.570 --> 00:26:46.570
"That's dumb. Hogwash.

811
00:26:49.110 --> 00:26:50.309
He's a wonderful painter.

812
00:26:50.310 --> 00:26:51.869
He will reward scrutiny.

813
00:26:51.870 --> 00:26:54.389
Dig." And with

814
00:26:54.390 --> 00:26:56.519
Titian, it's like it's hard, right?

815
00:26:56.520 --> 00:26:57.479
There are a lot of books.

816
00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:58.919
There's a lot of great scholarship.

817
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:00.989
There's a lot of focus.

818
00:27:00.990 --> 00:27:02.939
But what I started to realize,

819
00:27:02.940 --> 00:27:04.919
just reading catalogue

820
00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:06.749
entries, was that he has

821
00:27:06.750 --> 00:27:08.639
this thing which is

822
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:10.529
unlike any other painter that in

823
00:27:10.530 --> 00:27:12.629
his lifetime was believed

824
00:27:12.630 --> 00:27:14.789
to have created a miracle-working

825
00:27:14.790 --> 00:27:16.289
image. And I was just like, whoa,

826
00:27:16.290 --> 00:27:18.299
how is that not like the lead

827
00:27:18.300 --> 00:27:20.129
line of

828
00:27:20.130 --> 00:27:21.869
any of his biographies, of which

829
00:27:21.870 --> 00:27:22.870
there are multiples? Right?

830
00:27:23.910 --> 00:27:25.859
And part of what that was

831
00:27:25.860 --> 00:27:27.134
was me looking at--

832
00:27:29.210 --> 00:27:30.529
probably having some sort of

833
00:27:30.530 --> 00:27:32.569
internalized sense of the

834
00:27:32.570 --> 00:27:34.129
numbers that you were just citing

835
00:27:34.130 --> 00:27:36.589
from that 2008 survey and

836
00:27:36.590 --> 00:27:38.419
thinking about the fact that

837
00:27:38.420 --> 00:27:41.329
there is a red thread

838
00:27:41.330 --> 00:27:42.979
running through Titian's career that

839
00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:44.869
is not the emergence

840
00:27:44.870 --> 00:27:46.729
of naked lady in a landscape or the

841
00:27:46.730 --> 00:27:48.799
painterly brushstroke,

842
00:27:48.800 --> 00:27:49.969
which are sort of the two things

843
00:27:49.970 --> 00:27:51.890
that he's mostly known for,

844
00:27:53.540 --> 00:27:55.759
that would merit study.

845
00:27:55.760 --> 00:27:57.709
And as I sort of dug

846
00:27:57.710 --> 00:27:58.710
into it,

847
00:28:00.080 --> 00:28:01.080
questions of modernity

848
00:28:02.330 --> 00:28:03.979
really started to pop up a lot

849
00:28:03.980 --> 00:28:04.980
because

850
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:09.399
one thing that you see is that

851
00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:11.319
certain elements of Titian's career

852
00:28:11.320 --> 00:28:13.179
get kind of written out of

853
00:28:13.180 --> 00:28:15.189
the story already

854
00:28:15.190 --> 00:28:16.839
in the 16th century because they're

855
00:28:16.840 --> 00:28:19.119
not mapping on to the emergence

856
00:28:19.120 --> 00:28:20.979
of what, at the time, would have

857
00:28:20.980 --> 00:28:22.689
been called the maniera moderno or

858
00:28:22.690 --> 00:28:24.609
the modern manner of painting.

859
00:28:24.610 --> 00:28:26.889
And the sort of sublimation

860
00:28:26.890 --> 00:28:29.229
of this miracle-working image

861
00:28:29.230 --> 00:28:31.419
is a part of that.

862
00:28:31.420 --> 00:28:33.189
And so it really does raise the

863
00:28:33.190 --> 00:28:34.190
question, like, for

864
00:28:38.080 --> 00:28:40.029
how long have we never been modern?

865
00:28:40.030 --> 00:28:40.989
Right?

866
00:28:40.990 --> 00:28:42.879
If you want to rephrase the

867
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:46.179
Latour thing, it's not just a modern

868
00:28:46.180 --> 00:28:47.180
creation, but

869
00:28:49.300 --> 00:28:51.099
it is, in many ways, already in

870
00:28:51.100 --> 00:28:51.879
pre-modernity.

871
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:53.979
There was this kind of tension

872
00:28:53.980 --> 00:28:56.499
between the praxis

873
00:28:56.500 --> 00:28:58.329
of people who

874
00:28:58.330 --> 00:29:00.249
were engaged with paintings at

875
00:29:00.250 --> 00:29:03.039
the time, many of whom

876
00:29:03.040 --> 00:29:05.109
didn't care about Titian's

877
00:29:05.110 --> 00:29:06.159
naked lady in a landscape because

878
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:07.035
they would never see one.

879
00:29:07.036 --> 00:29:09.759
Right? Those were in

880
00:29:09.760 --> 00:29:11.739
cardinals' palaces and princes'

881
00:29:11.740 --> 00:29:13.149
palaces and whatnot.

882
00:29:13.150 --> 00:29:15.549
They cared about

883
00:29:15.550 --> 00:29:17.709
the painting in their local town

884
00:29:17.710 --> 00:29:19.749
that would protect their sister

885
00:29:19.750 --> 00:29:20.860
who was pregnant or

886
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:25.029
healed them from the plague

887
00:29:25.030 --> 00:29:26.979
or whatever it was.

888
00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:28.959
And so I started to kind of realize

889
00:29:32.250 --> 00:29:34.259
that even that account

890
00:29:34.260 --> 00:29:35.260
of

891
00:29:37.420 --> 00:29:39.369
the inadequacy of what it means

892
00:29:39.370 --> 00:29:41.559
to be modern can be found

893
00:29:41.560 --> 00:29:42.560
much earlier,

894
00:29:43.630 --> 00:29:45.579
already in writings from the

895
00:29:45.580 --> 00:29:47.619
early 1500s, and especially

896
00:29:47.620 --> 00:29:48.849
by the late 1500s.

897
00:29:49.870 --> 00:29:52.029
Yeah, it's really exciting to read

898
00:29:52.030 --> 00:29:54.009
your book and to be able

899
00:29:54.010 --> 00:29:55.959
to kind of see those kinds of

900
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:57.159
connections that we're talking about

901
00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:58.509
here in reading it.

902
00:29:58.510 --> 00:29:59.649
I think that's a really exciting

903
00:29:59.650 --> 00:30:00.759
thing about it.

904
00:30:00.760 --> 00:30:02.769
One of the other things that I think

905
00:30:02.770 --> 00:30:04.179
is so exciting about it is the way

906
00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:06.159
that you think through

907
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.049
what it means to be

908
00:30:08.050 --> 00:30:09.050
Titian

909
00:30:10.100 --> 00:30:12.279
because he produced that image

910
00:30:12.280 --> 00:30:14.559
early in a long career.

911
00:30:14.560 --> 00:30:16.659
So thinking through, I just think

912
00:30:16.660 --> 00:30:18.669
it's such an interesting thing

913
00:30:18.670 --> 00:30:19.670
to

914
00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:22.809
read and think with you about what

915
00:30:22.810 --> 00:30:24.009
would it mean for someone to paint

916
00:30:24.010 --> 00:30:25.899
for 50-plus years and to work

917
00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:27.789
for 50-plus years as someone who

918
00:30:27.790 --> 00:30:29.409
had done this. So he's thinking

919
00:30:29.410 --> 00:30:31.299
about what it means for himself as

920
00:30:31.300 --> 00:30:33.129
a person and as a painter to have

921
00:30:33.130 --> 00:30:34.239
done this. I wonder, can you talk a

922
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:35.240
little bit about what

923
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:37.989
you conclude as far as you are

924
00:30:37.990 --> 00:30:39.639
able to see about Titian when you

925
00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:40.989
think about him in that way?

926
00:30:40.990 --> 00:30:42.039
Yeah, absolutely.

927
00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:44.079
And here, I have to say, like, this

928
00:30:44.080 --> 00:30:45.120
was the part-- before

929
00:30:46.690 --> 00:30:47.949
the book was a book, and it was a

930
00:30:47.950 --> 00:30:49.659
dissertation, this was a part of the

931
00:30:49.660 --> 00:30:51.130
project that was really

932
00:30:52.750 --> 00:30:53.739
opaque to me.

933
00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:56.079
I knew there was something there,

934
00:30:56.080 --> 00:30:58.569
but I had no idea how to

935
00:30:58.570 --> 00:30:59.800
find that thread.

936
00:31:00.850 --> 00:31:02.979
And it was really working through

937
00:31:02.980 --> 00:31:05.049
in conversation with my colleagues

938
00:31:05.050 --> 00:31:07.089
here at Pitt, especially Kirk Savage

939
00:31:07.090 --> 00:31:08.319
and Jennifer Josten were really

940
00:31:08.320 --> 00:31:10.449
great interlocutors in

941
00:31:10.450 --> 00:31:12.579
working through the kind of latter

942
00:31:12.580 --> 00:31:13.580
parts of the book because

943
00:31:15.700 --> 00:31:17.229
I started to realize also a kind of

944
00:31:17.230 --> 00:31:19.089
folding on my

945
00:31:19.090 --> 00:31:20.859
own career. Right? The person who

946
00:31:20.860 --> 00:31:22.059
wrote the dissertation is not the

947
00:31:22.060 --> 00:31:23.649
same person who's writing the book,

948
00:31:23.650 --> 00:31:26.469
and the temporality of a creator

949
00:31:26.470 --> 00:31:28.479
started to kind of snap into focus

950
00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:29.480
for me. And

951
00:31:30.490 --> 00:31:31.490
this painting

952
00:31:33.230 --> 00:31:35.089
is miraculously activated.

953
00:31:35.090 --> 00:31:37.489
Titian is born sometime around 1490,

954
00:31:37.490 --> 00:31:39.079
let's say. Right?

955
00:31:39.080 --> 00:31:41.539
This painting is probably made

956
00:31:41.540 --> 00:31:42.540
around 1512.

957
00:31:43.130 --> 00:31:44.629
Date is very fuzzy, but we know that

958
00:31:44.630 --> 00:31:48.049
it miraculously activates in 1519.

959
00:31:48.050 --> 00:31:50.809
Titian doesn't die until 1576.

960
00:31:50.810 --> 00:31:52.849
So as you said, we've got a long

961
00:31:52.850 --> 00:31:54.773
span of time in which

962
00:31:56.430 --> 00:31:58.679
there is a rumor

963
00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:00.299
going around first and then it is

964
00:32:00.300 --> 00:32:02.129
codified in the publication of

965
00:32:02.130 --> 00:32:04.019
Giorgio Vasari's Lives

966
00:32:04.020 --> 00:32:05.969
of the Artists in 1568.

967
00:32:05.970 --> 00:32:08.609
So for at least the last decade

968
00:32:08.610 --> 00:32:11.339
of his career, he is known

969
00:32:11.340 --> 00:32:12.719
throughout Europe as the guy that

970
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:14.429
painted a miracle-working image.

971
00:32:14.430 --> 00:32:16.379
But the rumor was circulating before

972
00:32:16.380 --> 00:32:17.579
that. Like it shows up in the

973
00:32:17.580 --> 00:32:19.169
metaphors that are used to describe

974
00:32:19.170 --> 00:32:20.759
his art. They're always drawing on

975
00:32:20.760 --> 00:32:21.760
miracles.

976
00:32:22.350 --> 00:32:24.359
And what I started

977
00:32:24.360 --> 00:32:25.949
to realize was that one of the

978
00:32:25.950 --> 00:32:27.359
things that had always kind of

979
00:32:27.360 --> 00:32:29.309
puzzled me, which was the

980
00:32:29.310 --> 00:32:30.890
way that he seemed to avoid

981
00:32:32.260 --> 00:32:34.029
going back to the subject matter of

982
00:32:34.030 --> 00:32:36.129
that painting, which

983
00:32:36.130 --> 00:32:37.449
is Christ Carrying the Cross.

984
00:32:37.450 --> 00:32:39.369
It's a painting of Christ

985
00:32:39.370 --> 00:32:40.809
carrying the cross. He's sort of

986
00:32:40.810 --> 00:32:42.699
confronted very closely by this guy

987
00:32:42.700 --> 00:32:44.469
who's grabbing on a noose that's

988
00:32:44.470 --> 00:32:46.269
tied around his neck, and they're

989
00:32:46.270 --> 00:32:47.499
sort of pulling him toward the

990
00:32:47.500 --> 00:32:48.500
crucifixion.

991
00:32:49.500 --> 00:32:51.269
He doesn't paint another version of

992
00:32:51.270 --> 00:32:54.059
that picture until about 1560, so

993
00:32:54.060 --> 00:32:55.799
we're talking like 40 years later.

994
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:58.769
And one of the ways that one would

995
00:32:58.770 --> 00:33:00.779
think about miracle-working

996
00:33:00.780 --> 00:33:02.879
images is like you want to repeat

997
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:03.719
the thing. Right?

998
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:05.099
You want to sort of spread its

999
00:33:05.100 --> 00:33:07.169
efficacy. You want to go back to it.

1000
00:33:07.170 --> 00:33:08.546
And what we start to see is that

1001
00:33:09.600 --> 00:33:11.489
as he's learning what it means to

1002
00:33:11.490 --> 00:33:12.490
be not

1003
00:33:14.260 --> 00:33:15.260
just an artist

1004
00:33:16.360 --> 00:33:17.360
but like

1005
00:33:18.190 --> 00:33:20.559
credibly claim--

1006
00:33:20.560 --> 00:33:22.419
we can credibly claim that he

1007
00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:24.429
is the first truly international

1008
00:33:24.430 --> 00:33:25.839
Italian artist.

1009
00:33:25.840 --> 00:33:27.729
He is late in his

1010
00:33:27.730 --> 00:33:29.499
career. All of his best works are

1011
00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:30.669
being sent to the Holy Roman

1012
00:33:30.670 --> 00:33:31.806
Emperor, to various

1013
00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:36.309
kings throughout

1014
00:33:36.310 --> 00:33:37.779
Europe.

1015
00:33:37.780 --> 00:33:39.639
He's not a

1016
00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:41.079
Venetian painter anymore.

1017
00:33:41.080 --> 00:33:42.669
He's an international guy.

1018
00:33:43.690 --> 00:33:45.459
And part of what becomes really

1019
00:33:45.460 --> 00:33:47.319
interesting is the way that he

1020
00:33:47.320 --> 00:33:50.079
is revisiting,

1021
00:33:50.080 --> 00:33:52.029
from about 1555

1022
00:33:52.030 --> 00:33:53.030
or so onward, previous

1023
00:33:54.860 --> 00:33:56.719
versions of himself

1024
00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:58.050
and rewriting

1025
00:34:00.910 --> 00:34:02.319
these subject matters that were

1026
00:34:02.320 --> 00:34:04.299
extremely familiar

1027
00:34:04.300 --> 00:34:05.529
in the history of Christian

1028
00:34:05.530 --> 00:34:06.669
iconography. Christ carrying the

1029
00:34:06.670 --> 00:34:08.499
cross, a painting

1030
00:34:08.500 --> 00:34:09.629
of Christ with the coins.

1031
00:34:09.630 --> 00:34:11.259
So that story give to Caesar what is

1032
00:34:11.260 --> 00:34:13.269
Caesar's. Where he had sort of like

1033
00:34:13.270 --> 00:34:15.158
established the tradition of

1034
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:16.809
that iconography and had never

1035
00:34:16.810 --> 00:34:18.399
really been painted before him.

1036
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:20.649
He paints one in 1516.

1037
00:34:20.650 --> 00:34:22.059
He doesn't come back to it until

1038
00:34:22.060 --> 00:34:23.019
1568.

1039
00:34:23.020 --> 00:34:25.209
And it's watching the way

1040
00:34:25.210 --> 00:34:27.579
that he's sort of reading

1041
00:34:27.580 --> 00:34:29.888
through his own earlier

1042
00:34:29.889 --> 00:34:30.889
production

1043
00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:34.079
and revisiting it and twisting

1044
00:34:34.080 --> 00:34:35.729
it in new directions and trying to

1045
00:34:35.730 --> 00:34:36.869
say, like, "okay, what did I do

1046
00:34:36.870 --> 00:34:37.870
then?

1047
00:34:38.659 --> 00:34:40.249
What are the things I can do now?

1048
00:34:41.570 --> 00:34:42.829
What are the things that worked?

1049
00:34:42.830 --> 00:34:43.830
What are the things that

1050
00:34:44.889 --> 00:34:46.209
I have learned since then." And

1051
00:34:47.560 --> 00:34:49.539
what we see-- originally,

1052
00:34:49.540 --> 00:34:50.829
I had sort of thought of

1053
00:34:51.909 --> 00:34:53.468
the paintings that are mostly in

1054
00:34:53.469 --> 00:34:55.059
Chapter 6 in my book, which is when

1055
00:34:55.060 --> 00:34:56.138
he's kind of revisiting these

1056
00:34:56.139 --> 00:34:57.969
things. When I was

1057
00:34:57.970 --> 00:34:59.169
writing my dissertation, I thought

1058
00:34:59.170 --> 00:35:00.864
they were not good paintings.

1059
00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:03.349
I mean, they're beautiful paintings.

1060
00:35:03.350 --> 00:35:05.259
The craftsmanship is amazing,

1061
00:35:05.260 --> 00:35:07.839
but not him at his most creative.

1062
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.179
I was sort of of the mindset

1063
00:35:10.180 --> 00:35:12.309
that like, his creativity

1064
00:35:12.310 --> 00:35:14.349
was kind of burning out, and

1065
00:35:14.350 --> 00:35:16.389
it took-- they

1066
00:35:16.390 --> 00:35:18.279
are what we might

1067
00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:20.399
call slow-fuse paintings, right?

1068
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:22.299
They really have

1069
00:35:22.300 --> 00:35:23.430
to smolder

1070
00:35:24.910 --> 00:35:27.099
for a long time before

1071
00:35:27.100 --> 00:35:28.659
you start to understand what's going

1072
00:35:28.660 --> 00:35:29.660
on. But then, when

1073
00:35:31.610 --> 00:35:33.229
it clicks, and you see this guy

1074
00:35:33.230 --> 00:35:34.759
doing a really smart

1075
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:36.889
reinterpretation of himself,

1076
00:35:36.890 --> 00:35:38.329
it becomes like a great

1077
00:35:39.350 --> 00:35:40.350
singer-songwriter

1078
00:35:42.680 --> 00:35:43.941
like a Bruce Springsteen or,

1079
00:35:45.290 --> 00:35:46.369
in the Italian tradition, I

1080
00:35:46.370 --> 00:35:47.569
especially love Francesco de

1081
00:35:47.570 --> 00:35:49.669
Gregori, who was this great--

1082
00:35:49.670 --> 00:35:51.799
is still is a great singer, did

1083
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:52.800
all of these songs in 1969-70.

1084
00:35:56.120 --> 00:35:58.219
And now, in concert, he plays

1085
00:35:58.220 --> 00:35:59.569
them in a completely different way.

1086
00:35:59.570 --> 00:36:00.829
Some people love it, some people

1087
00:36:00.830 --> 00:36:02.989
hate it. But you're watching him

1088
00:36:02.990 --> 00:36:04.849
try to fall in love with

1089
00:36:04.850 --> 00:36:06.769
his songs that have been around

1090
00:36:06.770 --> 00:36:08.719
for 50 years, trying to

1091
00:36:08.720 --> 00:36:10.639
make himself still love them.

1092
00:36:10.640 --> 00:36:12.776
And there's something that's really

1093
00:36:15.120 --> 00:36:17.039
tellingly human about that

1094
00:36:17.040 --> 00:36:18.959
too. Like, what does it mean to go

1095
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.119
back to something that made

1096
00:36:21.120 --> 00:36:22.260
you famous

1097
00:36:23.490 --> 00:36:25.259
and try to do it in a way that

1098
00:36:25.260 --> 00:36:27.119
acknowledges that, in

1099
00:36:27.120 --> 00:36:28.349
some way, you founded that

1100
00:36:28.350 --> 00:36:30.240
tradition, in the case of Titian.

1101
00:36:31.410 --> 00:36:33.239
And now you have the

1102
00:36:33.240 --> 00:36:35.399
opportunity to write yourself into

1103
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:36.400
it

1104
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:39.299
in a way that is different than

1105
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:40.440
the founding moment.

1106
00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:44.159
So it's a really like complicated

1107
00:36:44.160 --> 00:36:46.349
and human thing

1108
00:36:46.350 --> 00:36:47.621
that I think also--

1109
00:36:51.210 --> 00:36:53.159
part of me wishes I could have had

1110
00:36:53.160 --> 00:36:54.869
one more crack at it because

1111
00:36:56.520 --> 00:36:57.989
from the book, as you know, the last

1112
00:36:57.990 --> 00:37:00.239
painting is this

1113
00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:02.429
altarpiece that he makes

1114
00:37:02.430 --> 00:37:04.110
for his own grave.

1115
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:08.219
And he ends up dying of

1116
00:37:08.220 --> 00:37:09.029
plague.

1117
00:37:09.030 --> 00:37:11.219
He's 85

1118
00:37:11.220 --> 00:37:13.799
ish, maybe even 90, depending.

1119
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:15.719
And he's still painting, as best

1120
00:37:15.720 --> 00:37:17.759
we can tell, until

1121
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:19.800
just days before he dies.

1122
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:22.949
And there is a pathos

1123
00:37:22.950 --> 00:37:24.839
in the fact that

1124
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:26.939
he had watched so many of his family

1125
00:37:26.940 --> 00:37:27.940
members die.

1126
00:37:29.490 --> 00:37:31.919
And he's painting this thing over

1127
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:33.599
the decades people are dying of

1128
00:37:33.600 --> 00:37:34.379
plague all around him.

1129
00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:35.819
And he's somehow like Highlander.

1130
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:37.319
He won't die.

1131
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:38.320
He won't die.

1132
00:37:39.210 --> 00:37:41.039
And then the plague of 1576

1133
00:37:41.040 --> 00:37:43.019
takes him, and there is a way

1134
00:37:43.020 --> 00:37:44.939
that the stakes

1135
00:37:44.940 --> 00:37:46.889
of that what that

1136
00:37:46.890 --> 00:37:48.959
meant to him has

1137
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:50.939
become clearer to me in the last 11

1138
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:51.940
months than

1139
00:37:53.130 --> 00:37:55.019
in 20 years of studying

1140
00:37:55.020 --> 00:37:56.020
him.

1141
00:37:56.310 --> 00:37:57.310
Yeah.

1142
00:37:58.590 --> 00:37:59.590
Yeah. It's

1143
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:02.849
really a great--

1144
00:38:02.850 --> 00:38:04.079
it's a great book.

1145
00:38:04.080 --> 00:38:05.159
I mean, I really like the way-- just

1146
00:38:05.160 --> 00:38:06.239
talking about the Springsteen

1147
00:38:06.240 --> 00:38:07.619
comparison, to me, really kind of

1148
00:38:07.620 --> 00:38:09.479
like reminds me so much of

1149
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:10.289
another thing that I really

1150
00:38:10.290 --> 00:38:11.159
appreciated about it.

1151
00:38:11.160 --> 00:38:12.629
I mean, it's very closely related to

1152
00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:13.529
what we were just talking about.

1153
00:38:13.530 --> 00:38:15.389
But that's the way that if

1154
00:38:15.390 --> 00:38:17.009
Titian throughout his career is

1155
00:38:17.010 --> 00:38:18.869
painting in a way so that his art

1156
00:38:18.870 --> 00:38:20.399
is kind of interacting with the

1157
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:22.319
culture, representing it,

1158
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:23.579
interacting with the culture in

1159
00:38:23.580 --> 00:38:25.169
various ways, then by the time he

1160
00:38:25.170 --> 00:38:27.329
gets older

1161
00:38:27.330 --> 00:38:29.219
in his career, moves on

1162
00:38:29.220 --> 00:38:31.229
in that career, then he's part

1163
00:38:31.230 --> 00:38:32.729
of the culture that he's interacting

1164
00:38:32.730 --> 00:38:33.646
with at that point.

1165
00:38:33.647 --> 00:38:35.159
He's played such a big-- so that

1166
00:38:35.160 --> 00:38:36.245
kind of like the self-referential

1167
00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:38.260
part of it

1168
00:38:39.150 --> 00:38:41.039
is a such a familiar thing, I think,

1169
00:38:41.040 --> 00:38:42.659
for modern fans of artists of all

1170
00:38:42.660 --> 00:38:44.429
different kinds. And seeing that

1171
00:38:44.430 --> 00:38:46.199
represented in your work in Titian

1172
00:38:46.200 --> 00:38:47.550
was just really exciting for me.

1173
00:38:48.780 --> 00:38:50.459
Yeah. And it's one of those things

1174
00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:52.619
that I do think makes

1175
00:38:52.620 --> 00:38:53.620
him-- as

1176
00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.739
you know, I'm part of a research

1177
00:38:59.740 --> 00:39:00.729
group called Genealogies of

1178
00:39:00.730 --> 00:39:02.065
Modernity. So anytime I use the word

1179
00:39:02.066 --> 00:39:03.309
modern, I feel like I have to put

1180
00:39:03.310 --> 00:39:04.149
scare quotes around it.

1181
00:39:04.150 --> 00:39:05.709
But it's part of what makes him so

1182
00:39:05.710 --> 00:39:06.710
"modern"

1183
00:39:07.690 --> 00:39:09.699
is the way that he is

1184
00:39:09.700 --> 00:39:10.700
thinking

1185
00:39:14.810 --> 00:39:15.979
that we can see him.

1186
00:39:15.980 --> 00:39:18.019
Because probably, in previous

1187
00:39:18.020 --> 00:39:19.249
centuries, this had happened too,

1188
00:39:19.250 --> 00:39:21.109
but we see evidence of,

1189
00:39:21.110 --> 00:39:22.953
and we can line up evidence of him

1190
00:39:25.160 --> 00:39:27.079
recognizing the way

1191
00:39:27.080 --> 00:39:29.059
that his works are being received

1192
00:39:29.060 --> 00:39:30.319
both in paintings and his

1193
00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:32.029
reproductive prints, and then

1194
00:39:32.030 --> 00:39:33.919
responding to that and, in some

1195
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:35.846
ways, like seeding his own

1196
00:39:37.050 --> 00:39:38.579
legacy.

1197
00:39:38.580 --> 00:39:40.529
Right? He's trying to think about

1198
00:39:40.530 --> 00:39:42.569
how posterity will view

1199
00:39:42.570 --> 00:39:44.045
him also, which is a--

1200
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:47.909
that's something that not many of

1201
00:39:47.910 --> 00:39:48.989
his contemporaries-- like

1202
00:39:48.990 --> 00:39:50.399
Michaelangelo kind of had the same

1203
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:52.229
thing because he also lived forever.

1204
00:39:52.230 --> 00:39:54.239
But a lot of artists-- Raphael

1205
00:39:54.240 --> 00:39:55.240
dies

1206
00:39:57.150 --> 00:39:58.560
before he gets to 40.

1207
00:40:00.030 --> 00:40:01.529
A lot of the kind of great

1208
00:40:01.530 --> 00:40:03.539
Renaissance artists, pre-moderns

1209
00:40:03.540 --> 00:40:06.059
in general, died of various

1210
00:40:06.060 --> 00:40:08.159
infectious diseases relatively

1211
00:40:08.160 --> 00:40:09.779
early and unexpectedly.

1212
00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:11.969
And Titian, because

1213
00:40:11.970 --> 00:40:13.889
he maintains the ability to

1214
00:40:13.890 --> 00:40:15.779
paint well into old age,

1215
00:40:18.270 --> 00:40:19.735
there's a kind of a

1216
00:40:19.736 --> 00:40:20.736
self-referentiality

1217
00:40:21.690 --> 00:40:22.739
that I think is really

1218
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:27.659
kind of stirring and not

1219
00:40:27.660 --> 00:40:28.728
something that I had -

1220
00:40:30.630 --> 00:40:31.864
back to what I was saying earlier -

1221
00:40:31.865 --> 00:40:33.269
that I had recognized

1222
00:40:34.290 --> 00:40:36.239
in the earliest versions of

1223
00:40:36.240 --> 00:40:37.529
this book.

1224
00:40:37.530 --> 00:40:39.689
And so it's interesting

1225
00:40:39.690 --> 00:40:41.414
seeing how my own reading, in

1226
00:40:42.570 --> 00:40:44.190
some way, maps onto him,

1227
00:40:45.540 --> 00:40:47.269
maps onto his own experience of

1228
00:40:48.810 --> 00:40:50.335
coming to know himself better.

1229
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:52.480
Right.

1230
00:40:53.270 --> 00:40:54.270
Yeah.

1231
00:40:54.770 --> 00:40:56.149
Well, you mentioned earlier-- I do

1232
00:40:56.150 --> 00:40:58.009
want to-- I want to go kind of

1233
00:40:58.010 --> 00:40:59.969
back to-- well,

1234
00:40:59.970 --> 00:41:01.159
I mean, we have been talking about

1235
00:41:01.160 --> 00:41:02.389
all of this kind of in terms of

1236
00:41:02.390 --> 00:41:03.390
things that

1237
00:41:04.310 --> 00:41:06.439
the last 11 months and the COVID-19

1238
00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:08.140
pandemic has made us see that

1239
00:41:09.380 --> 00:41:11.539
we hadn't seen before.

1240
00:41:11.540 --> 00:41:13.519
In the fall-- you mentioned this

1241
00:41:13.520 --> 00:41:15.169
course that was run through Pitt's

1242
00:41:15.170 --> 00:41:16.489
Humanities Center in the fall.

1243
00:41:16.490 --> 00:41:17.839
It's called Being Human in the Age

1244
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:18.840
of COVID-19.

1245
00:41:19.370 --> 00:41:20.809
There are a number of interdisciplinary

1246
00:41:20.810 --> 00:41:22.099
faculty members kind of leading the

1247
00:41:22.100 --> 00:41:23.899
conversation, students from all

1248
00:41:23.900 --> 00:41:25.729
across the university.

1249
00:41:25.730 --> 00:41:27.979
It seems like a really interesting

1250
00:41:27.980 --> 00:41:29.839
kind of response in a

1251
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:31.999
university setting to this moment.

1252
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:32.869
And I wonder if you can talk a

1253
00:41:32.870 --> 00:41:34.129
little bit about that and kind of

1254
00:41:34.130 --> 00:41:36.079
like what you brought to it,

1255
00:41:36.080 --> 00:41:37.399
what the experience teaching it was

1256
00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:38.749
like. And I don't know, just tell us

1257
00:41:38.750 --> 00:41:40.099
about the course a little bit.

1258
00:41:40.100 --> 00:41:41.899
Yeah. So I mean, it was a really

1259
00:41:41.900 --> 00:41:42.900
exciting

1260
00:41:45.240 --> 00:41:46.149
experiment.

1261
00:41:46.150 --> 00:41:47.639
I mean, there's really no other way

1262
00:41:47.640 --> 00:41:49.079
to describe it because we brought

1263
00:41:49.080 --> 00:41:50.579
together five faculty members.

1264
00:41:51.720 --> 00:41:53.639
David Marshall and Carla Nappi did

1265
00:41:53.640 --> 00:41:55.619
a lot of work

1266
00:41:55.620 --> 00:41:56.879
sort of over the summer, getting

1267
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:58.319
that team together and bringing us

1268
00:41:58.320 --> 00:41:59.320
together.

1269
00:42:00.870 --> 00:42:02.759
Alberto's from Italian, Umar's

1270
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:04.679
from English, Laura's

1271
00:42:04.680 --> 00:42:06.539
from History, and

1272
00:42:06.540 --> 00:42:09.059
Abby is from Public Health,

1273
00:42:09.060 --> 00:42:10.739
and I'm from art history.

1274
00:42:10.740 --> 00:42:12.539
And so we sort of-- we've got a

1275
00:42:12.540 --> 00:42:15.029
pretty broad stretch,

1276
00:42:15.030 --> 00:42:16.530
also chronologically,

1277
00:42:18.150 --> 00:42:19.499
and not all of us work in a

1278
00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:20.429
historical idiom.

1279
00:42:20.430 --> 00:42:22.109
Some of us work more historically

1280
00:42:22.110 --> 00:42:23.909
than others. And so it was a really

1281
00:42:23.910 --> 00:42:26.079
kind of interesting

1282
00:42:26.080 --> 00:42:27.080
way to bring together a

1283
00:42:28.050 --> 00:42:29.849
team of teachers.

1284
00:42:29.850 --> 00:42:31.709
And so what we tried to do was

1285
00:42:31.710 --> 00:42:32.710
come up with

1286
00:42:35.270 --> 00:42:36.074
threads of inquiry.

1287
00:42:36.075 --> 00:42:37.969
We tried

1288
00:42:37.970 --> 00:42:39.839
to root them in an object, right?

1289
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:41.599
Each of us would come with an object

1290
00:42:42.680 --> 00:42:44.359
that we thought revealed something

1291
00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:45.360
about

1292
00:42:46.820 --> 00:42:48.469
either what it means to be human at

1293
00:42:48.470 --> 00:42:50.629
this moment or modes

1294
00:42:50.630 --> 00:42:52.609
in which humanity has responded to

1295
00:42:52.610 --> 00:42:54.800
similar crises, similar pandemics.

1296
00:42:56.600 --> 00:42:57.769
And so we sort of started the

1297
00:42:57.770 --> 00:42:59.209
semester we watched Contagion, and

1298
00:42:59.210 --> 00:43:00.679
we had a discussion about that.

1299
00:43:00.680 --> 00:43:02.809
And that became a kind of red thread

1300
00:43:02.810 --> 00:43:04.639
that went through

1301
00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:06.469
the entire semester.

1302
00:43:06.470 --> 00:43:07.969
So we spent a lot of time talking

1303
00:43:07.970 --> 00:43:10.729
about things like Boccaccio,

1304
00:43:10.730 --> 00:43:11.816
kind of the original apocalyptic

1305
00:43:14.860 --> 00:43:16.689
fiction, as Alberto

1306
00:43:16.690 --> 00:43:18.010
would put it right.

1307
00:43:20.020 --> 00:43:22.239
Boccaccio's ten youths

1308
00:43:22.240 --> 00:43:24.189
who escape the

1309
00:43:24.190 --> 00:43:25.645
city of Florence and

1310
00:43:26.710 --> 00:43:28.389
take it upon themselves to basically

1311
00:43:28.390 --> 00:43:29.829
reestablish an order.

1312
00:43:29.830 --> 00:43:30.909
Right?

1313
00:43:30.910 --> 00:43:32.589
And it is the rebirth of a

1314
00:43:32.590 --> 00:43:34.569
civilization that comes from these

1315
00:43:34.570 --> 00:43:35.570
young people, and

1316
00:43:37.330 --> 00:43:38.949
so we talked about that.

1317
00:43:38.950 --> 00:43:41.859
We also talked about various other

1318
00:43:41.860 --> 00:43:43.689
pandemics. I brought in this

1319
00:43:43.690 --> 00:43:44.880
really amazing book called

1320
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:49.419
The Florentine Codex, which was

1321
00:43:49.420 --> 00:43:51.219
produced in Mexico City during a

1322
00:43:51.220 --> 00:43:53.139
period when Mexico City was

1323
00:43:53.140 --> 00:43:54.140
undergoing an

1324
00:43:55.240 --> 00:43:57.639
outbreak of smallpox.

1325
00:43:57.640 --> 00:43:59.589
And you can watch,

1326
00:43:59.590 --> 00:44:01.449
not only in the text but also in the

1327
00:44:01.450 --> 00:44:02.949
images. It's a really richly

1328
00:44:02.950 --> 00:44:03.950
illuminated book as

1329
00:44:07.170 --> 00:44:08.639
civilization just crumbles, right?

1330
00:44:08.640 --> 00:44:09.929
They go from being beautifully

1331
00:44:09.930 --> 00:44:11.789
technicolor images to all of the

1332
00:44:11.790 --> 00:44:13.739
sudden black and white.

1333
00:44:13.740 --> 00:44:15.569
They have no colored pigments

1334
00:44:15.570 --> 00:44:17.039
anymore. He can't get colored

1335
00:44:17.040 --> 00:44:18.689
pigments. And so the illuminator

1336
00:44:18.690 --> 00:44:20.489
starts doing really amazing things,

1337
00:44:20.490 --> 00:44:21.659
like when something is supposed to

1338
00:44:21.660 --> 00:44:22.859
be green.

1339
00:44:22.860 --> 00:44:24.929
He puts in a feather of a quetzal

1340
00:44:24.930 --> 00:44:26.849
bird. He basically draws what would

1341
00:44:26.850 --> 00:44:29.189
be recognizably a Ketzel feather

1342
00:44:29.190 --> 00:44:31.289
and says This thing should be green

1343
00:44:31.290 --> 00:44:32.729
like that feather.

1344
00:44:32.730 --> 00:44:33.648
And so you're supposed to have--

1345
00:44:33.649 --> 00:44:35.939
it's a really weird

1346
00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:38.039
metonymic approach that also drives

1347
00:44:38.040 --> 00:44:39.530
home like

1348
00:44:40.720 --> 00:44:42.639
we couldn't get toilet paper.

1349
00:44:42.640 --> 00:44:43.460
They couldn't get pigments.

1350
00:44:43.461 --> 00:44:44.461
We

1351
00:44:47.140 --> 00:44:49.269
understand scarcity in a pandemic

1352
00:44:49.270 --> 00:44:51.009
in a way that I don't think we did

1353
00:44:51.010 --> 00:44:52.010
before.

1354
00:44:52.930 --> 00:44:55.029
And so it was really

1355
00:44:55.030 --> 00:44:56.889
cool to see the way we- in

1356
00:44:56.890 --> 00:44:58.179
most class sessions, what we would

1357
00:44:58.180 --> 00:45:00.069
do is three of the faculty members,

1358
00:45:00.070 --> 00:45:01.329
three of the five, would kind of--

1359
00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:03.684
we would present little

1360
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:06.647
8 to 10-minute mini-lectures

1361
00:45:07.830 --> 00:45:09.779
that we had prepared them

1362
00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:11.609
in advance to kind of link

1363
00:45:11.610 --> 00:45:13.139
together in ways that were

1364
00:45:14.670 --> 00:45:15.989
going to be brought out in the

1365
00:45:15.990 --> 00:45:17.609
discussion. And so it was really

1366
00:45:17.610 --> 00:45:19.709
cool to see that

1367
00:45:19.710 --> 00:45:21.449
kind-- to participate in that kind

1368
00:45:21.450 --> 00:45:23.792
of collaborative

1369
00:45:25.340 --> 00:45:27.619
and genuinely creative

1370
00:45:27.620 --> 00:45:28.849
teaching experience where you're

1371
00:45:28.850 --> 00:45:30.691
trying to figure out what can I say

1372
00:45:30.692 --> 00:45:32.869
that is actually

1373
00:45:32.870 --> 00:45:34.152
not limiting?

1374
00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:37.799
That isn't in my disciplinary lane

1375
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:38.819
if you will. Right?

1376
00:45:38.820 --> 00:45:40.319
Because the whole point was like we

1377
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:42.329
had to get out

1378
00:45:42.330 --> 00:45:44.939
of any narratives that were too

1379
00:45:44.940 --> 00:45:47.099
closely tied to

1380
00:45:47.100 --> 00:45:48.329
a particular subject matter, a

1381
00:45:48.330 --> 00:45:49.330
particular

1382
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:52.649
subdiscipline, the stakes

1383
00:45:52.650 --> 00:45:53.789
of any one subdiscipline.

1384
00:45:53.790 --> 00:45:55.739
It really was what

1385
00:45:55.740 --> 00:45:57.449
the hell does it mean to be a human

1386
00:45:57.450 --> 00:45:59.190
being and how do we make meaning?

1387
00:46:00.330 --> 00:46:02.669
Me and you, students,

1388
00:46:02.670 --> 00:46:04.079
through a computer screen.

1389
00:46:04.080 --> 00:46:05.279
Right?

1390
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:06.839
This isn't the way any of us want to

1391
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:07.840
be teaching. But what

1392
00:46:09.240 --> 00:46:10.979
have been some of the strategies

1393
00:46:10.980 --> 00:46:13.409
that previous centuries

1394
00:46:13.410 --> 00:46:15.659
have stumbled upon to try to

1395
00:46:15.660 --> 00:46:18.119
rebuild after this?

1396
00:46:18.120 --> 00:46:19.120
Yeah.

1397
00:46:20.190 --> 00:46:21.149
Yeah. It seems like-- I mean, it

1398
00:46:21.150 --> 00:46:22.529
reminds me when we were talking

1399
00:46:22.530 --> 00:46:23.429
earlier about your approach to

1400
00:46:23.430 --> 00:46:24.659
teaching and the fact that kind of

1401
00:46:24.660 --> 00:46:26.729
like what this has brought you to

1402
00:46:26.730 --> 00:46:28.979
is the fact of recognizing a shared

1403
00:46:28.980 --> 00:46:31.079
humanity rather than thinking about

1404
00:46:31.080 --> 00:46:32.279
disciplines.

1405
00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:33.629
The normal kinds of like ways that

1406
00:46:33.630 --> 00:46:35.009
you think about teaching and

1407
00:46:35.010 --> 00:46:36.179
deadlines and stuff like that.

1408
00:46:37.200 --> 00:46:39.419
But this question of disciplines

1409
00:46:39.420 --> 00:46:40.420
also

1410
00:46:41.640 --> 00:46:43.529
reminds me of something that I

1411
00:46:43.530 --> 00:46:44.464
heard you talk about.

1412
00:46:44.465 --> 00:46:46.499
There's a podcast

1413
00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:47.939
you interviewed with the Beatrice

1414
00:46:47.940 --> 00:46:50.159
Institute from April of last year

1415
00:46:50.160 --> 00:46:51.539
with Ryan McDermott, and I'll link

1416
00:46:51.540 --> 00:46:53.879
to that episode

1417
00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:55.619
in the description of this podcast

1418
00:46:55.620 --> 00:46:57.209
so other listeners can go and hear

1419
00:46:57.210 --> 00:46:58.409
that.

1420
00:46:58.410 --> 00:47:00.299
But at the end of that interview,

1421
00:47:00.300 --> 00:47:02.429
Ryan was asking you about

1422
00:47:02.430 --> 00:47:03.869
some of that-- it was April of last

1423
00:47:03.870 --> 00:47:05.699
year, so we were a month or two into

1424
00:47:05.700 --> 00:47:07.589
the pandemic here in the U.S.

1425
00:47:07.590 --> 00:47:08.759
And he was asking you about a few of

1426
00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:10.559
the things that you were kind of

1427
00:47:10.560 --> 00:47:12.180
reading or watching or whatever at

1428
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:15.419
what was then an unprecedented

1429
00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:16.229
moment.

1430
00:47:16.230 --> 00:47:17.519
And the last thing that you

1431
00:47:17.520 --> 00:47:19.409
mentioned was a historian named Marc

1432
00:47:19.410 --> 00:47:20.699
Bloch, and you were reading a book

1433
00:47:20.700 --> 00:47:22.919
of his called The Historian's Craft.

1434
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:25.019
And I had not before then known

1435
00:47:25.020 --> 00:47:26.039
of Marc Block.

1436
00:47:26.040 --> 00:47:28.169
Since I heard it, have read

1437
00:47:28.170 --> 00:47:30.119
his work, some of it anyway, and

1438
00:47:30.120 --> 00:47:32.039
read about him and learned that

1439
00:47:32.040 --> 00:47:33.839
he's very well known amongst

1440
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:34.799
historians, at least, and

1441
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:36.479
particularly amongst early modern

1442
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:37.480
historians.

1443
00:47:38.220 --> 00:47:39.209
And for good reason.

1444
00:47:39.210 --> 00:47:40.139
I mean, he seems like such an

1445
00:47:40.140 --> 00:47:41.999
inspiring person and

1446
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:44.009
writer and the kinds of

1447
00:47:44.010 --> 00:47:45.719
thinking that he did about the

1448
00:47:45.720 --> 00:47:47.609
value, the kind of human value -

1449
00:47:47.610 --> 00:47:48.959
again, to think about that on that

1450
00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:50.789
scale - of doing

1451
00:47:50.790 --> 00:47:51.712
scholarship in history.

1452
00:47:51.713 --> 00:47:53.549
That he was just

1453
00:47:53.550 --> 00:47:54.929
really such an inspiring writer.

1454
00:47:54.930 --> 00:47:56.849
And I wonder if-- I just kind

1455
00:47:56.850 --> 00:47:57.809
of wanted to give you a chance to

1456
00:47:57.810 --> 00:47:58.979
say a little bit about what he means

1457
00:47:58.980 --> 00:48:00.779
to you and why he was someone you

1458
00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:02.879
were turning to last April.

1459
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:04.979
Yeah. I mean, he's just-- I

1460
00:48:04.980 --> 00:48:06.189
mean, he's an amazing figure.

1461
00:48:06.190 --> 00:48:07.319
Right?

1462
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:09.021
Serves in World War I, received

1463
00:48:11.970 --> 00:48:12.970
something like four

1464
00:48:13.950 --> 00:48:15.779
commendations from the French

1465
00:48:15.780 --> 00:48:17.459
military for his service in World

1466
00:48:17.460 --> 00:48:19.649
War I. Then in the years

1467
00:48:19.650 --> 00:48:21.659
between World War I and World

1468
00:48:21.660 --> 00:48:22.874
War II, he and Lucien Febvre

1469
00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:25.717
set up the Annales

1470
00:48:25.718 --> 00:48:27.749
School, start publishing

1471
00:48:27.750 --> 00:48:28.750
this

1472
00:48:30.990 --> 00:48:32.579
really groundbreaking journal

1473
00:48:34.110 --> 00:48:36.209
that really changed

1474
00:48:36.210 --> 00:48:37.619
our way of thinking about what it

1475
00:48:37.620 --> 00:48:38.639
means to be a historian.

1476
00:48:38.640 --> 00:48:39.539
One of the things that he was

1477
00:48:39.540 --> 00:48:41.489
fascinated about was the history

1478
00:48:41.490 --> 00:48:42.490
of marmalade.

1479
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:44.920
Like

1480
00:48:47.160 --> 00:48:49.979
there's this French myth that

1481
00:48:49.980 --> 00:48:51.479
everybody's grandma makes marmalade.

1482
00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:53.189
When did that actually become

1483
00:48:53.190 --> 00:48:54.479
possible because it requires a lot

1484
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:55.480
of sugar?

1485
00:48:56.210 --> 00:48:58.169
And so he's sort of--

1486
00:48:58.170 --> 00:48:59.399
he's like working through these

1487
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:00.479
problems.

1488
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:02.399
And then he writes

1489
00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:03.989
a number of really well-regarded

1490
00:49:03.990 --> 00:49:06.149
books about a kind of

1491
00:49:06.150 --> 00:49:07.973
like everyday life or

1492
00:49:09.690 --> 00:49:11.819
aspects of what it means to

1493
00:49:11.820 --> 00:49:13.829
do what we might now

1494
00:49:13.830 --> 00:49:15.098
call history from the bottom-up.

1495
00:49:16.380 --> 00:49:17.897
At the outbreak of World War II,

1496
00:49:19.020 --> 00:49:20.279
he re-enlists.

1497
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:21.749
He's an elderly man at this point,

1498
00:49:21.750 --> 00:49:22.750
so he's a kind of--

1499
00:49:24.590 --> 00:49:25.429
he's an officer.

1500
00:49:25.430 --> 00:49:26.689
And he's in the officer corps, and

1501
00:49:26.690 --> 00:49:28.669
he's, I think, in charge of moving

1502
00:49:28.670 --> 00:49:30.559
gasoline around

1503
00:49:30.560 --> 00:49:31.609
in the early days.

1504
00:49:31.610 --> 00:49:33.109
And he ends up at Dunkirk, and he

1505
00:49:33.110 --> 00:49:34.110
gets

1506
00:49:34.970 --> 00:49:37.309
taken back to England and

1507
00:49:37.310 --> 00:49:39.109
very quickly re-transported to

1508
00:49:39.110 --> 00:49:40.969
France and becomes a member of the

1509
00:49:40.970 --> 00:49:41.779
resistance.

1510
00:49:41.780 --> 00:49:43.789
And he writes

1511
00:49:43.790 --> 00:49:45.405
The Historian's Craft,

1512
00:49:47.410 --> 00:49:48.636
basically, while

1513
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:52.379
living in his own

1514
00:49:52.380 --> 00:49:54.719
country house and also conducting

1515
00:49:54.720 --> 00:49:55.709
operations for the French

1516
00:49:55.710 --> 00:49:57.539
Resistance. And it becomes this

1517
00:49:57.540 --> 00:49:59.369
meditation on what does it mean

1518
00:49:59.370 --> 00:50:01.289
to be a historian.

1519
00:50:01.290 --> 00:50:02.426
It opens with a question of

1520
00:50:03.570 --> 00:50:05.699
a child to, presumably,

1521
00:50:05.700 --> 00:50:06.929
to his father.

1522
00:50:06.930 --> 00:50:09.000
Father, what is the use of history?

1523
00:50:11.100 --> 00:50:13.019
And that's a really-- like it's

1524
00:50:13.020 --> 00:50:14.789
a kind of haunting question when you

1525
00:50:14.790 --> 00:50:15.899
start to think about it.

1526
00:50:15.900 --> 00:50:17.939
Right? And one of the things

1527
00:50:17.940 --> 00:50:19.514
that he talks about is

1528
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:23.800
history allows

1529
00:50:26.680 --> 00:50:27.789
us to develop a sense of the

1530
00:50:27.790 --> 00:50:30.219
solidarity of the ages.

1531
00:50:30.220 --> 00:50:31.269
And this, to me, is just one of

1532
00:50:31.270 --> 00:50:33.069
those phrases that has just totally

1533
00:50:33.070 --> 00:50:34.749
stuck in my mind.

1534
00:50:34.750 --> 00:50:36.669
And the reason that it was

1535
00:50:36.670 --> 00:50:39.099
present in my mind in April

1536
00:50:39.100 --> 00:50:40.783
is because, as I was saying before,

1537
00:50:40.784 --> 00:50:42.820
I feel as though,

1538
00:50:44.140 --> 00:50:45.969
in many ways, the last

1539
00:50:45.970 --> 00:50:46.984
11 months have revealed

1540
00:50:50.640 --> 00:50:52.799
quite acutely certain elements

1541
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:53.800
of what

1542
00:50:55.990 --> 00:50:57.969
it means to be human and how that

1543
00:50:57.970 --> 00:50:59.919
is not actually curtailed by

1544
00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:01.959
what it means to be modern or living

1545
00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:03.189
in the contemporary world.

1546
00:51:03.190 --> 00:51:05.207
There are elements of utter

1547
00:51:06.300 --> 00:51:08.549
uncertainty and

1548
00:51:08.550 --> 00:51:10.036
anxiety and fear

1549
00:51:15.030 --> 00:51:17.159
and trepidation that are

1550
00:51:17.160 --> 00:51:19.260
trans-historical and that

1551
00:51:20.520 --> 00:51:22.529
when one starts

1552
00:51:22.530 --> 00:51:24.359
to realize

1553
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:25.360
that

1554
00:51:28.360 --> 00:51:29.889
the recognition that previous

1555
00:51:29.890 --> 00:51:31.089
generations have gone through this

1556
00:51:31.090 --> 00:51:33.279
may be called hope,

1557
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:35.829
but it is, in some way, comforting.

1558
00:51:35.830 --> 00:51:38.019
It doesn't tell us that you

1559
00:51:38.020 --> 00:51:40.059
individually will not

1560
00:51:40.060 --> 00:51:41.060
go to the hospital.

1561
00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:44.349
You will never actually know anybody

1562
00:51:44.350 --> 00:51:45.609
who gets Covid. You will have

1563
00:51:45.610 --> 00:51:47.079
someone die. It doesn't tell us any

1564
00:51:47.080 --> 00:51:47.859
of that.

1565
00:51:47.860 --> 00:51:49.899
But what it tells us is that

1566
00:51:51.970 --> 00:51:53.919
what it means to be human is

1567
00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:55.749
to recognize that others

1568
00:51:55.750 --> 00:51:57.699
have been here before

1569
00:51:57.700 --> 00:51:59.979
and others will be hereafter.

1570
00:51:59.980 --> 00:52:01.659
And we are somewhere in this

1571
00:52:04.350 --> 00:52:06.689
beautiful and frustrating and

1572
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:10.349
anger-making and lovely process

1573
00:52:10.350 --> 00:52:11.350
of

1574
00:52:12.660 --> 00:52:14.429
writing human history.

1575
00:52:14.430 --> 00:52:16.259
And the historian is

1576
00:52:16.260 --> 00:52:18.599
trying to look at

1577
00:52:18.600 --> 00:52:20.279
what it has meant to be a human

1578
00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:23.309
being at various moments in time.

1579
00:52:23.310 --> 00:52:25.499
And so Bloch,

1580
00:52:25.500 --> 00:52:26.500
for me,

1581
00:52:27.780 --> 00:52:29.279
it's just such a poignant story.

1582
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:31.979
He's writing this book

1583
00:52:31.980 --> 00:52:34.109
as he's doing the French Resistance.

1584
00:52:35.730 --> 00:52:37.739
He's captured in March

1585
00:52:37.740 --> 00:52:40.139
of 1944, shortly after D-Day.

1586
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:43.259
They begin liquidating

1587
00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:45.419
the prisoners in his

1588
00:52:45.420 --> 00:52:48.299
POW camp, and he's killed.

1589
00:52:48.300 --> 00:52:50.310
I think it's mid-June of 44,

1590
00:52:52.140 --> 00:52:53.759
and three versions of this

1591
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:54.885
manuscript make it

1592
00:52:55.890 --> 00:52:57.539
to Febvre on the far side of the

1593
00:52:57.540 --> 00:52:59.549
war. And it's left to

1594
00:52:59.550 --> 00:53:00.550
this friend to

1595
00:53:03.930 --> 00:53:05.519
take these things and put them

1596
00:53:05.520 --> 00:53:07.349
together into something coherent.

1597
00:53:07.350 --> 00:53:09.269
And there are all sorts of

1598
00:53:09.270 --> 00:53:11.309
little ways that touches

1599
00:53:11.310 --> 00:53:13.139
me now in a way that it

1600
00:53:13.140 --> 00:53:14.759
did not a year ago.

1601
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:16.619
This totally

1602
00:53:16.620 --> 00:53:17.999
understandable thing where we have

1603
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:19.109
to have a designated--

1604
00:53:20.610 --> 00:53:21.899
in the spring, I think we called it

1605
00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:23.609
a designated survivor.

1606
00:53:23.610 --> 00:53:25.259
Now we call it a designated teaching

1607
00:53:25.260 --> 00:53:26.429
body. Right?

1608
00:53:26.430 --> 00:53:28.109
Like if you go down with Covid,

1609
00:53:28.110 --> 00:53:29.339
who's going to finish your class?

1610
00:53:29.340 --> 00:53:31.079
And by go down, I don't necessarily

1611
00:53:31.080 --> 00:53:32.080
mean die. I mean,

1612
00:53:33.600 --> 00:53:35.114
be taken out of the teaching part.

1613
00:53:35.115 --> 00:53:36.119
And you're sort of sitting there

1614
00:53:36.120 --> 00:53:37.120
thinking like, "Okay,

1615
00:53:38.220 --> 00:53:40.050
how do I do this in a way that is

1616
00:53:41.460 --> 00:53:43.349
ethical toward my colleague without

1617
00:53:43.350 --> 00:53:44.350
expecting them to like totally

1618
00:53:47.570 --> 00:53:49.279
know every in and out of my class."

1619
00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:51.499
But it's like handing an unfinished

1620
00:53:51.500 --> 00:53:53.989
manuscript to your best friend

1621
00:53:53.990 --> 00:53:56.119
and saying, "You know,

1622
00:53:56.120 --> 00:53:57.589
Lucien. I never got to finish the

1623
00:53:57.590 --> 00:54:00.419
book. You will know what to do.

1624
00:54:00.420 --> 00:54:01.739
You will know how to bring this to

1625
00:54:01.740 --> 00:54:03.254
completion." And that really drives

1626
00:54:06.070 --> 00:54:07.989
home, to me, the fact

1627
00:54:07.990 --> 00:54:09.081
that at the end of the day,

1628
00:54:11.170 --> 00:54:13.509
what it means to be a colleague

1629
00:54:13.510 --> 00:54:15.429
really has changed,

1630
00:54:15.430 --> 00:54:17.949
I think, in the last 11 months.

1631
00:54:17.950 --> 00:54:19.479
There are ways in which

1632
00:54:20.770 --> 00:54:22.599
the affordances of Zoom simply mean

1633
00:54:22.600 --> 00:54:24.099
we're seeing each other's houses in

1634
00:54:24.100 --> 00:54:25.359
a way that is more intimate than

1635
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:26.360
before.

1636
00:54:27.370 --> 00:54:29.349
And also, I

1637
00:54:29.350 --> 00:54:31.299
think it has empowered us

1638
00:54:31.300 --> 00:54:32.300
to feel

1639
00:54:33.690 --> 00:54:35.969
free to

1640
00:54:35.970 --> 00:54:37.919
be more empathetic and human

1641
00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:38.789
toward one another.

1642
00:54:38.790 --> 00:54:40.679
And that, to me, is one

1643
00:54:40.680 --> 00:54:42.147
of the real stories of Bloch is

1644
00:54:44.100 --> 00:54:45.659
feeling and empathy toward history.

1645
00:54:45.660 --> 00:54:47.729
That doesn't mean you forgive

1646
00:54:47.730 --> 00:54:49.769
people when they make bad choices

1647
00:54:49.770 --> 00:54:51.149
in history. It doesn't mean that our

1648
00:54:51.150 --> 00:54:53.759
history is writing over difficulties

1649
00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:56.279
or moments of injustice.

1650
00:54:56.280 --> 00:54:57.280
But it does mean

1651
00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:01.129
understanding that we

1652
00:55:01.130 --> 00:55:03.439
are a link in the solidarity

1653
00:55:03.440 --> 00:55:05.449
of the ages that goes

1654
00:55:05.450 --> 00:55:07.249
in both directions - behind us and

1655
00:55:07.250 --> 00:55:08.919
in front of us.

1656
00:55:08.920 --> 00:55:09.920
Yeah.

1657
00:55:10.580 --> 00:55:11.580
Thanks, Chris. I'm

1658
00:55:13.850 --> 00:55:15.679
really grateful for having learned

1659
00:55:15.680 --> 00:55:16.579
about him through you.

1660
00:55:16.580 --> 00:55:17.653
He's such an inspirational figure,

1661
00:55:17.654 --> 00:55:19.639
and so I really

1662
00:55:19.640 --> 00:55:20.640
appreciate that.

1663
00:55:21.890 --> 00:55:23.180
And thanks so much for joining us on

1664
00:55:23.181 --> 00:55:23.959
Being Human.

1665
00:55:23.960 --> 00:55:25.339
Yeah, thank you.

1666
00:55:25.340 --> 00:55:27.049
It was great to talk. Be well.

1667
00:55:32.310 --> 00:55:33.629
That's it for this episode of Being

1668
00:55:33.630 --> 00:55:35.399
Human. This episode was produced by

1669
00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:36.989
Jacqui Sieber, Humanities Media

1670
00:55:36.990 --> 00:55:37.979
Fellow at the University of

1671
00:55:37.980 --> 00:55:39.149
Pittsburgh.

1672
00:55:39.150 --> 00:55:40.169
Stay tuned next time for an

1673
00:55:40.170 --> 00:55:41.459
interview with Shaundra Myers,

1674
00:55:41.460 --> 00:55:43.349
professor of English at Pitt.

1675
00:55:43.350 --> 00:55:44.459
Also, please take a listen to

1676
00:55:44.460 --> 00:55:46.319
Backbone, a podcast series

1677
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:47.309
that highlights the essential

1678
00:55:47.310 --> 00:55:48.899
workers that keep our society going

1679
00:55:48.900 --> 00:55:50.309
during the pandemic.

1680
00:55:50.310 --> 00:55:52.019
Backbone is produced and hosted by

1681
00:55:52.020 --> 00:55:53.489
Undergraduate Humanities Media

1682
00:55:53.490 --> 00:55:54.689
Fellow and Being Human producer

1683
00:55:54.690 --> 00:55:55.859
Jacqui Sieber.

1684
00:55:55.860 --> 00:55:57.119
You can find it by clicking the

1685
00:55:57.120 --> 00:55:59.579
podcast tab on the WPTS website

1686
00:55:59.580 --> 00:56:00.659
or look for the link in this

1687
00:56:00.660 --> 00:56:02.099
episode's description.

1688
00:56:02.100 --> 00:56:03.100
Thanks for listening.