WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.009 --> 00:00:03.809 Hi. I'm Dan Kubis, and this is the 2 00:00:03.810 --> 00:00:05.459 first episode of the University of 3 00:00:05.460 --> 00:00:07.079 Pittsburgh Year of the Humanities 4 00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:08.080 podcast. 5 00:00:09.660 --> 00:00:11.159 When we hear about the humanities in 6 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:13.049 the 21st century, it is usually 7 00:00:13.050 --> 00:00:14.669 in one of two ways. 8 00:00:14.670 --> 00:00:16.589 The first is crisis. 9 00:00:16.590 --> 00:00:18.239 Departments are being eliminated, 10 00:00:18.240 --> 00:00:20.009 enrollment numbers are down, and the 11 00:00:20.010 --> 00:00:21.239 humanists who should be fighting 12 00:00:21.240 --> 00:00:22.949 back can't because their fields are 13 00:00:22.950 --> 00:00:24.389 in disarray. 14 00:00:24.390 --> 00:00:26.099 These are earnest arguments, but 15 00:00:26.100 --> 00:00:28.169 they're frequently overstated. 16 00:00:28.170 --> 00:00:29.339 Statistics for funding and 17 00:00:29.340 --> 00:00:30.689 enrollment do not show that the 18 00:00:30.690 --> 00:00:31.949 humanities have been in constant 19 00:00:31.950 --> 00:00:32.969 decline. 20 00:00:32.970 --> 00:00:34.739 And the explosion of subfields has 21 00:00:34.740 --> 00:00:36.389 created opportunities for previously 22 00:00:36.390 --> 00:00:37.390 unheard voices. 23 00:00:38.250 --> 00:00:39.359 The second thing we hear about the 24 00:00:39.360 --> 00:00:40.439 humanities is that they are 25 00:00:40.440 --> 00:00:41.819 essential for various kinds of 26 00:00:41.820 --> 00:00:42.989 success. 27 00:00:42.990 --> 00:00:44.519 Publications like Forbes and 28 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:46.139 Business Insider publish articles 29 00:00:46.140 --> 00:00:47.129 promoting the value of the 30 00:00:47.130 --> 00:00:48.839 humanities and careers. 31 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:50.399 And colleges and universities look 32 00:00:50.400 --> 00:00:51.809 to use the arts and humanities to 33 00:00:51.810 --> 00:00:53.639 fuel creativity and innovation 34 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:54.640 in other fields. 35 00:00:55.460 --> 00:00:57.169 These are also important and welcome 36 00:00:57.170 --> 00:00:58.369 points of view. 37 00:00:58.370 --> 00:00:59.959 But humanists know that the arts and 38 00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:01.309 literature are about more than 39 00:01:01.310 --> 00:01:03.019 career advancement. 40 00:01:03.020 --> 00:01:04.699 They know that novels and paintings 41 00:01:04.700 --> 00:01:06.469 and symphonies allow them to 42 00:01:06.470 --> 00:01:08.059 understand their lives and the lives 43 00:01:08.060 --> 00:01:09.619 of others in ways that nothing else 44 00:01:09.620 --> 00:01:11.629 can, even if this understanding 45 00:01:11.630 --> 00:01:13.639 is hard to explain and impossible 46 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:14.779 to put a price on. 47 00:01:14.780 --> 00:01:16.699 This academic year, 48 00:01:16.700 --> 00:01:17.899 the University of Pittsburgh is 49 00:01:17.900 --> 00:01:18.919 celebrating the Year of the 50 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:21.079 Humanities and the university. 51 00:01:21.080 --> 00:01:22.429 The goal of the year is to create 52 00:01:22.430 --> 00:01:24.169 conversations between the humanities 53 00:01:24.170 --> 00:01:25.699 and other disciplines that go beyond 54 00:01:25.700 --> 00:01:27.259 these familiar points. 55 00:01:27.260 --> 00:01:29.029 Conversations that let humanists, 56 00:01:29.030 --> 00:01:30.439 scholars in other fields, and 57 00:01:30.440 --> 00:01:32.239 professionals learn from each other 58 00:01:32.240 --> 00:01:33.379 and create new forms of 59 00:01:33.380 --> 00:01:34.640 understanding in the process. 60 00:01:35.660 --> 00:01:37.219 This podcast will document our 61 00:01:37.220 --> 00:01:38.719 efforts throughout the year. 62 00:01:38.720 --> 00:01:40.009 We will talk with guests who come to 63 00:01:40.010 --> 00:01:41.359 campus about what the humanities 64 00:01:41.360 --> 00:01:42.589 have meant to them in their lives 65 00:01:42.590 --> 00:01:44.419 and careers and the possibilities 66 00:01:44.420 --> 00:01:46.099 they see for this essential field of 67 00:01:46.100 --> 00:01:47.689 human study as the 21st century 68 00:01:47.690 --> 00:01:48.690 unfolds. 69 00:01:49.310 --> 00:01:50.809 Our inaugural guest in the series is 70 00:01:50.810 --> 00:01:52.639 Leonard Cassuto, professor of 71 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:54.079 English at Fordham University and 72 00:01:54.080 --> 00:01:55.339 columnist for the Chronicle of 73 00:01:55.340 --> 00:01:56.340 Higher Education. 74 00:01:57.110 --> 00:01:58.759 As a scholar, Dr. Cassuto has 75 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:00.049 written seven books on American 76 00:02:00.050 --> 00:02:01.879 literature and culture, including 77 00:02:01.880 --> 00:02:02.929 the Cambridge History of the 78 00:02:02.930 --> 00:02:04.279 American Novel and The Cambridge 79 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:05.280 Companion to Baseball. 80 00:02:06.260 --> 00:02:07.819 As a columnist, Cassuto writes a 81 00:02:07.820 --> 00:02:09.168 regular column for the Chronicle 82 00:02:09.169 --> 00:02:10.698 called The Graduate Advisor, in 83 00:02:10.699 --> 00:02:11.929 which he focuses on the current 84 00:02:11.930 --> 00:02:13.459 state of graduate education in 85 00:02:13.460 --> 00:02:15.829 American colleges and universities. 86 00:02:15.830 --> 00:02:17.269 His most recent book, titled The 87 00:02:17.270 --> 00:02:19.099 Graduate School Mess What Caused It 88 00:02:19.100 --> 00:02:20.899 and How We Can Fix It, was published 89 00:02:20.900 --> 00:02:23.839 by Harvard University Press in 2015. 90 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:25.069 We are thrilled to have him as our 91 00:02:25.070 --> 00:02:26.389 first guest in our humanities 92 00:02:26.390 --> 00:02:27.829 podcast. 93 00:02:27.830 --> 00:02:29.389 I began by asking him what the 94 00:02:29.390 --> 00:02:30.739 humanities have meant to him in his 95 00:02:30.740 --> 00:02:31.740 life and career. 96 00:02:35.620 --> 00:02:37.779 I'm going to tell a story. 97 00:02:37.780 --> 00:02:39.609 And I'm going to begin with 98 00:02:39.610 --> 00:02:40.959 something that perhaps I'll return 99 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:42.879 to, which is that if 100 00:02:42.880 --> 00:02:44.829 there's anything that I have 101 00:02:44.830 --> 00:02:46.869 discovered as more and more 102 00:02:46.870 --> 00:02:48.699 important in the course 103 00:02:48.700 --> 00:02:50.679 of my career as a humanist is 104 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:52.509 that human beings are storytelling 105 00:02:52.510 --> 00:02:53.510 animals. We 106 00:02:54.760 --> 00:02:56.619 are storytelling animals with a 107 00:02:56.620 --> 00:02:58.719 strong sense of aesthetics. 108 00:02:58.720 --> 00:03:00.039 That is, we are capable of 109 00:03:00.040 --> 00:03:02.109 responding to those stories. 110 00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:04.119 And probably everyone's 111 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:05.351 most important story is their own. 112 00:03:05.352 --> 00:03:07.689 And mine 113 00:03:07.690 --> 00:03:09.849 is a 114 00:03:09.850 --> 00:03:11.319 story of stories, you might say, is 115 00:03:11.320 --> 00:03:12.320 a story of reading books that 116 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:15.339 I became an English major 117 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:17.349 because I liked reading books. 118 00:03:17.350 --> 00:03:18.789 And I went to graduate school 119 00:03:18.790 --> 00:03:20.229 because I wanted to keep reading 120 00:03:20.230 --> 00:03:21.230 books. 121 00:03:21.760 --> 00:03:24.159 There have been times 122 00:03:24.160 --> 00:03:26.229 in my adulthood when 123 00:03:26.230 --> 00:03:28.119 I occasionally get invited to 124 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:29.739 join a book group or something like 125 00:03:29.740 --> 00:03:31.299 that. And my usual response to that 126 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:33.125 is I lead book groups for a living. 127 00:03:33.126 --> 00:03:34.126 And 128 00:03:35.590 --> 00:03:37.659 what a great living it is that 129 00:03:37.660 --> 00:03:39.669 I get a chance to continue to read 130 00:03:39.670 --> 00:03:41.619 books that I'm interested in and to 131 00:03:41.620 --> 00:03:43.599 talk to people about why we 132 00:03:43.600 --> 00:03:45.609 all think that they're interesting. 133 00:03:45.610 --> 00:03:47.529 And so that has been 134 00:03:47.530 --> 00:03:49.659 my guiding and sustaining 135 00:03:49.660 --> 00:03:51.759 force throughout that. 136 00:03:51.760 --> 00:03:54.459 The fun 137 00:03:54.460 --> 00:03:56.439 that lies in reading 138 00:03:56.440 --> 00:03:58.989 books and thinking hard about them. 139 00:03:58.990 --> 00:04:00.459 So, have you noticed changes over 140 00:04:00.460 --> 00:04:02.439 the course of your career 141 00:04:02.440 --> 00:04:04.629 as a humanist or as a university 142 00:04:04.630 --> 00:04:05.409 scholar? 143 00:04:05.410 --> 00:04:06.789 In my classrooms, there has not been 144 00:04:06.790 --> 00:04:08.199 that much change at all. 145 00:04:08.200 --> 00:04:10.239 That is to say, I still 146 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:12.759 write and teach about books 147 00:04:12.760 --> 00:04:14.799 to audiences of students who 148 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:17.018 are interested in those books. 149 00:04:17.019 --> 00:04:18.398 There has been some change in the 150 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:20.169 demographics of the students as 151 00:04:20.170 --> 00:04:22.269 relating to my own university. 152 00:04:22.270 --> 00:04:23.559 The students, for example, have 153 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:25.449 gotten wealthier 154 00:04:25.450 --> 00:04:28.659 or, I should say, more well-to-do. 155 00:04:28.660 --> 00:04:30.669 There is a 156 00:04:30.670 --> 00:04:33.189 way that college has 157 00:04:33.190 --> 00:04:35.499 become more 158 00:04:35.500 --> 00:04:37.599 of a province for 159 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:39.879 those who can afford it and 160 00:04:39.880 --> 00:04:41.859 less of a place 161 00:04:41.860 --> 00:04:43.509 where those who can't otherwise 162 00:04:43.510 --> 00:04:45.879 afford it are enabled to go. 163 00:04:45.880 --> 00:04:48.159 That is, my students are more 164 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:50.169 suburban and more middle class 165 00:04:50.170 --> 00:04:51.909 than they once were, and that surely 166 00:04:51.910 --> 00:04:53.829 affects their experience of 167 00:04:53.830 --> 00:04:56.079 the humanities along with my own. 168 00:04:56.080 --> 00:04:57.189 I'm concerned about this. 169 00:04:57.190 --> 00:04:58.779 As I've read more about it, I see 170 00:04:58.780 --> 00:05:00.909 that the cost 171 00:05:00.910 --> 00:05:02.979 of college and the way the 172 00:05:02.980 --> 00:05:04.869 colleges and universities have 173 00:05:04.870 --> 00:05:06.399 responded to it, both public and 174 00:05:06.400 --> 00:05:08.979 private, it's affecting 175 00:05:08.980 --> 00:05:11.019 the education that is 176 00:05:11.020 --> 00:05:13.989 being dispensed-- 177 00:05:13.990 --> 00:05:16.119 that is being collaborated upon 178 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:18.069 in ways that I'm concerned 179 00:05:18.070 --> 00:05:19.419 about. Because when I first went 180 00:05:19.420 --> 00:05:21.639 into this business, one of the other 181 00:05:21.640 --> 00:05:23.649 goals that I had was 182 00:05:23.650 --> 00:05:25.929 to try to make 183 00:05:25.930 --> 00:05:27.849 education, and 184 00:05:27.850 --> 00:05:29.949 education about literature 185 00:05:29.950 --> 00:05:31.689 and the arts in particular, into 186 00:05:31.690 --> 00:05:33.669 something that was broadly 187 00:05:33.670 --> 00:05:35.709 available to different kinds 188 00:05:35.710 --> 00:05:36.609 of people. 189 00:05:36.610 --> 00:05:38.529 And I'm seeing fewer different kinds 190 00:05:38.530 --> 00:05:40.419 of people in the 191 00:05:40.420 --> 00:05:42.279 classrooms of my private university 192 00:05:42.280 --> 00:05:44.259 right now. And that 193 00:05:44.260 --> 00:05:45.789 accompanied with what I read about 194 00:05:45.790 --> 00:05:47.410 the trends that 195 00:05:48.820 --> 00:05:50.649 suggest that many 196 00:05:50.650 --> 00:05:52.029 young people are being priced out of 197 00:05:52.030 --> 00:05:53.439 college and university. 198 00:05:53.440 --> 00:05:55.239 That's not specifically a humanities 199 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:56.889 trend, but it's one that I worry 200 00:05:56.890 --> 00:05:57.890 about. 201 00:05:58.540 --> 00:05:59.949 That reminds me that in The Graduate 202 00:05:59.950 --> 00:06:01.389 School Mess, you write of the need 203 00:06:01.390 --> 00:06:03.009 to look at graduate programs 204 00:06:03.010 --> 00:06:04.929 holistically. And it seems like 205 00:06:04.930 --> 00:06:06.879 you are taking a similar 206 00:06:06.880 --> 00:06:08.499 holistic approach to the humanities. 207 00:06:08.500 --> 00:06:09.639 Is that right? 208 00:06:09.640 --> 00:06:11.379 Yes. I think that we cannot 209 00:06:11.380 --> 00:06:13.689 understand graduate school outside 210 00:06:13.690 --> 00:06:15.519 of higher 211 00:06:15.520 --> 00:06:17.169 education in general. 212 00:06:17.170 --> 00:06:19.209 That without graduate school, 213 00:06:19.210 --> 00:06:21.489 we don't have higher education. 214 00:06:21.490 --> 00:06:23.379 And without higher 215 00:06:23.380 --> 00:06:24.879 education, we can't have graduate 216 00:06:24.880 --> 00:06:25.719 school. 217 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:27.609 And I think that we need to look 218 00:06:27.610 --> 00:06:29.499 at the humanities in 219 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:30.339 much the same way. 220 00:06:30.340 --> 00:06:32.799 That the humanities were 221 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:34.329 in the beginning of the age of the 222 00:06:34.330 --> 00:06:36.339 university in the United States. 223 00:06:36.340 --> 00:06:38.169 They were central 224 00:06:38.170 --> 00:06:39.669 to the course of study. 225 00:06:39.670 --> 00:06:41.919 Most of what went on 226 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:43.989 in colleges and universities through 227 00:06:43.990 --> 00:06:46.089 the years of the early 20th century, 228 00:06:46.090 --> 00:06:48.129 was what we would identify 229 00:06:48.130 --> 00:06:50.229 as humanistic pursuit. 230 00:06:50.230 --> 00:06:52.209 So humanities are at the core the 231 00:06:52.210 --> 00:06:54.219 guts of a lot 232 00:06:54.220 --> 00:06:56.259 of what we do 233 00:06:56.260 --> 00:06:58.899 here in universities historically. 234 00:06:58.900 --> 00:07:00.759 And if the humanities 235 00:07:00.760 --> 00:07:02.679 are the historical core 236 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:04.269 of the university, I think what we 237 00:07:04.270 --> 00:07:06.279 experience today is a tendency to 238 00:07:06.280 --> 00:07:07.869 try to pull the university apart 239 00:07:07.870 --> 00:07:08.845 into constituent parts. 240 00:07:08.846 --> 00:07:09.846 That 241 00:07:10.660 --> 00:07:12.729 there is a tendency 242 00:07:12.730 --> 00:07:14.199 to view professional schools in 243 00:07:14.200 --> 00:07:16.059 isolation and now to 244 00:07:16.060 --> 00:07:18.309 see individual 245 00:07:18.310 --> 00:07:19.719 disciplines, humanistic and 246 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:21.464 otherwise, likewise in isolation 247 00:07:21.465 --> 00:07:23.409 taken to 248 00:07:23.410 --> 00:07:25.389 an extreme. You have the 249 00:07:25.390 --> 00:07:27.339 proposal, ill-fated, fortunately, 250 00:07:27.340 --> 00:07:28.929 by Rick Scott, the governor of 251 00:07:28.930 --> 00:07:31.059 Florida, to set 252 00:07:31.060 --> 00:07:32.919 different tuition rates 253 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:34.809 for different majors, 254 00:07:34.810 --> 00:07:36.879 with the humanities as a luxury 255 00:07:36.880 --> 00:07:38.739 good being priced higher 256 00:07:38.740 --> 00:07:40.569 than other disciplines, which 257 00:07:40.570 --> 00:07:42.399 are presumably more 258 00:07:42.400 --> 00:07:43.929 needed by society. 259 00:07:43.930 --> 00:07:45.879 There's a perniciousness 260 00:07:45.880 --> 00:07:48.729 to that, not simply because 261 00:07:48.730 --> 00:07:50.859 need is something that 262 00:07:50.860 --> 00:07:53.379 is harder to judge 263 00:07:53.380 --> 00:07:54.489 than perhaps Governor Scott 264 00:07:54.490 --> 00:07:56.439 suggests, but also because the 265 00:07:56.440 --> 00:07:58.749 idea of pulling education apart 266 00:07:58.750 --> 00:08:00.909 into constituent parts. 267 00:08:00.910 --> 00:08:02.619 I think that we should better look 268 00:08:02.620 --> 00:08:03.549 at that. That's like trying to 269 00:08:03.550 --> 00:08:05.199 unbake a cake. 270 00:08:05.200 --> 00:08:07.479 You can't very well isolate 271 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:09.249 the ingredients of a cake once 272 00:08:09.250 --> 00:08:10.479 they've been baked together. 273 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:11.889 And that's really how we ought to 274 00:08:11.890 --> 00:08:13.869 understand education higher and 275 00:08:13.870 --> 00:08:15.219 otherwise. 276 00:08:15.220 --> 00:08:16.449 So, the range of things that you've 277 00:08:16.450 --> 00:08:18.309 written on during your career 278 00:08:18.310 --> 00:08:20.379 stands in contrast to the tendency 279 00:08:20.380 --> 00:08:21.759 to isolate disciplines or to pull 280 00:08:21.760 --> 00:08:23.019 them apart. 281 00:08:23.020 --> 00:08:24.489 One of the best examples of this is 282 00:08:24.490 --> 00:08:26.589 your writing on the physicist 283 00:08:26.590 --> 00:08:28.359 Jan Hendrik Schön, where you wrote 284 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:30.339 about his work and his 285 00:08:30.340 --> 00:08:31.209 fraud. 286 00:08:31.210 --> 00:08:32.589 And then, you followed that up with 287 00:08:32.590 --> 00:08:33.849 a reflection on your experience of 288 00:08:33.850 --> 00:08:35.558 writing about a physicist and 289 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:37.449 working with physicists. 290 00:08:37.450 --> 00:08:38.769 Can you talk a bit about what drew 291 00:08:38.770 --> 00:08:40.298 you to this story and then also talk 292 00:08:40.299 --> 00:08:41.889 about your reflection on your 293 00:08:41.890 --> 00:08:42.890 experience? 294 00:08:43.450 --> 00:08:45.339 So the way that I would begin 295 00:08:45.340 --> 00:08:48.519 this story 296 00:08:48.520 --> 00:08:50.379 is to say that I 297 00:08:50.380 --> 00:08:52.359 see myself as a writer. 298 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:54.159 When I first came out of graduate 299 00:08:54.160 --> 00:08:56.019 school and I was looking for 300 00:08:56.020 --> 00:08:58.179 an academic job, the director 301 00:08:58.180 --> 00:09:00.369 of placement in my department, 302 00:09:00.370 --> 00:09:02.199 Helen Vendler, said, "Oh, 303 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:04.239 you want to be a writer?" Which was 304 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:06.339 advice at the time that 305 00:09:06.340 --> 00:09:08.229 I found that I couldn't use 306 00:09:08.230 --> 00:09:10.089 it at the time, because I had very 307 00:09:10.090 --> 00:09:11.979 practical considerations on my mind, 308 00:09:11.980 --> 00:09:13.959 such as getting a professor's job 309 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:16.479 and then trying to get tenure. 310 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:18.429 But after I got tenure, I 311 00:09:18.430 --> 00:09:20.019 found myself returning more and more 312 00:09:20.020 --> 00:09:22.029 often to that comment, and I allowed 313 00:09:22.030 --> 00:09:23.799 it to take its place in my own 314 00:09:23.800 --> 00:09:25.839 personal cosmology. 315 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:28.689 And it translated into 316 00:09:28.690 --> 00:09:30.609 a wish and desire, which I was 317 00:09:30.610 --> 00:09:33.099 eventually able to act upon, to 318 00:09:33.100 --> 00:09:34.989 find stories where I could find 319 00:09:34.990 --> 00:09:36.129 them and tell them where I could 320 00:09:36.130 --> 00:09:37.359 tell them. 321 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:38.887 And that physics story-- a 322 00:09:40.570 --> 00:09:42.940 friend of mine, who is a physicist, 323 00:09:44.230 --> 00:09:46.179 told me about it in the first place 324 00:09:46.180 --> 00:09:48.009 when it was still unfolding. 325 00:09:48.010 --> 00:09:50.109 And he said, "Have 326 00:09:50.110 --> 00:09:51.999 I got a story for you?" And I said, 327 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:54.369 "Well, boy, people 328 00:09:54.370 --> 00:09:56.229 say that, but let's hear it." 329 00:09:56.230 --> 00:09:58.149 And so he told me what was going on. 330 00:09:58.150 --> 00:09:59.319 And I said, "You know, you're right. 331 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:01.269 You do have a story for me." 332 00:10:01.270 --> 00:10:03.279 And so I spent a good 333 00:10:03.280 --> 00:10:04.689 bit of time bringing myself up to 334 00:10:04.690 --> 00:10:06.669 speed learning about what 335 00:10:06.670 --> 00:10:08.649 was going on in 336 00:10:08.650 --> 00:10:11.589 the physics of semiconductors 337 00:10:11.590 --> 00:10:13.449 so that I could 338 00:10:13.450 --> 00:10:15.939 understand and then tell that story. 339 00:10:15.940 --> 00:10:17.859 And I saw that in every 340 00:10:17.860 --> 00:10:20.139 way as humanistic work that 341 00:10:20.140 --> 00:10:22.479 it was a story that had considerable 342 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:23.769 social consequence. 343 00:10:23.770 --> 00:10:25.509 It was the one time in my life so 344 00:10:25.510 --> 00:10:27.549 far, and maybe the only time ever 345 00:10:27.550 --> 00:10:29.439 when I became the 346 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:31.419 source of the news cycle 347 00:10:31.420 --> 00:10:32.499 for about 24 hours. 348 00:10:32.500 --> 00:10:34.419 I was driving the news cycle 349 00:10:34.420 --> 00:10:35.739 on that story. 350 00:10:35.740 --> 00:10:36.759 After my piece came out, 351 00:10:37.990 --> 00:10:40.689 I saw other news organizations 352 00:10:40.690 --> 00:10:42.579 going to the people I had spoken 353 00:10:42.580 --> 00:10:44.649 to to get their versions of the same 354 00:10:44.650 --> 00:10:46.509 quotes. And I saw them taking the 355 00:10:46.510 --> 00:10:48.099 structure of my story and making it 356 00:10:48.100 --> 00:10:49.659 into the basis of their own. 357 00:10:49.660 --> 00:10:51.429 And I understood a little bit better 358 00:10:51.430 --> 00:10:52.809 how the news cycle worked. 359 00:10:52.810 --> 00:10:54.909 And I was really quite 360 00:10:55.990 --> 00:10:58.479 intoxicated by those few moments. 361 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:00.129 Even though my name wasn't often 362 00:11:00.130 --> 00:11:01.989 mentioned, I could see where I 363 00:11:01.990 --> 00:11:03.009 was figuring in that. 364 00:11:03.010 --> 00:11:04.010 It was a lot of fun. 365 00:11:06.160 --> 00:11:07.269 And then, I discovered that there 366 00:11:07.270 --> 00:11:09.219 was a second story, which 367 00:11:09.220 --> 00:11:11.199 was the experience that I 368 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.689 had as a humanist 369 00:11:13.690 --> 00:11:16.119 in scientific precincts 370 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:18.069 meeting scientific 371 00:11:18.070 --> 00:11:19.070 colleagues 372 00:11:20.530 --> 00:11:22.689 who related to each other and to me 373 00:11:22.690 --> 00:11:24.549 in different ways than I was used to 374 00:11:24.550 --> 00:11:26.709 having faculty relate to each other. 375 00:11:26.710 --> 00:11:27.909 And so that became the source of 376 00:11:27.910 --> 00:11:29.829 another story that I could tell 377 00:11:29.830 --> 00:11:31.779 and a story about the way 378 00:11:31.780 --> 00:11:34.149 that the university 379 00:11:34.150 --> 00:11:36.399 contains different cultures 380 00:11:36.400 --> 00:11:38.529 and the way that those cultures 381 00:11:38.530 --> 00:11:40.419 survive and indeed thrive 382 00:11:40.420 --> 00:11:42.009 sometimes in greater isolation than 383 00:11:42.010 --> 00:11:43.239 they need to be. 384 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:44.799 When you wrote reflecting on your 385 00:11:44.800 --> 00:11:46.419 experience of working with 386 00:11:46.420 --> 00:11:48.549 scientists, you noted in that piece 387 00:11:48.550 --> 00:11:50.619 that in the humanities, 388 00:11:50.620 --> 00:11:52.689 faculty normally work independently, 389 00:11:52.690 --> 00:11:54.399 whereas scientists are trained to 390 00:11:54.400 --> 00:11:55.869 work in groups. 391 00:11:55.870 --> 00:11:57.699 Yesterday, when Jonathan Arac 392 00:11:57.700 --> 00:11:59.619 was introducing you, I 393 00:11:59.620 --> 00:12:01.329 noticed that when he described his 394 00:12:01.330 --> 00:12:03.159 experience of working with you 395 00:12:03.160 --> 00:12:04.809 while you were editing the Cambridge 396 00:12:04.810 --> 00:12:06.519 History of the American Novel, he 397 00:12:06.520 --> 00:12:07.989 described you creating a highly 398 00:12:07.990 --> 00:12:09.849 collaborative atmosphere amongst 399 00:12:09.850 --> 00:12:10.959 all of the contributors. 400 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:12.399 And I'm wondering if this atmosphere 401 00:12:12.400 --> 00:12:14.229 is something you consciously try to 402 00:12:14.230 --> 00:12:16.089 create in your work. 403 00:12:16.090 --> 00:12:18.339 One of the great takeaways from my 404 00:12:18.340 --> 00:12:20.679 sojourn in the sciences 405 00:12:20.680 --> 00:12:22.749 was the experience 406 00:12:22.750 --> 00:12:24.819 of that collaborative spirit 407 00:12:24.820 --> 00:12:25.989 within the world of science. 408 00:12:25.990 --> 00:12:27.789 I knew about it, of course, but 409 00:12:27.790 --> 00:12:30.099 knowing about it and immersing 410 00:12:30.100 --> 00:12:31.839 myself in it proved to be two 411 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:33.669 different things. And as I reflect 412 00:12:33.670 --> 00:12:35.551 on it, we reflect back on our own 413 00:12:35.552 --> 00:12:36.669 paths, and we construct our own 414 00:12:36.670 --> 00:12:38.409 stories. And I see just how 415 00:12:38.410 --> 00:12:40.779 important that period 416 00:12:40.780 --> 00:12:41.799 when I was 417 00:12:43.180 --> 00:12:45.249 talking to physicists and 418 00:12:45.250 --> 00:12:47.259 thinking about physics for the first 419 00:12:47.260 --> 00:12:49.869 time since I was in college. 420 00:12:49.870 --> 00:12:51.969 I see how important that time was 421 00:12:51.970 --> 00:12:54.219 to my future development 422 00:12:54.220 --> 00:12:55.839 as a writer and editor and a 423 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:56.840 thinker. 424 00:12:58.990 --> 00:13:01.299 When I began to edit the Cambridge 425 00:13:01.300 --> 00:13:03.249 History of the American Novel, a 426 00:13:03.250 --> 00:13:05.259 1200 page omnibus 427 00:13:05.260 --> 00:13:07.659 that was intended to be a monumental 428 00:13:07.660 --> 00:13:08.702 guide to the field, I 429 00:13:10.300 --> 00:13:12.129 didn't want it to be 430 00:13:12.130 --> 00:13:14.589 a collection of 70 431 00:13:14.590 --> 00:13:16.779 individual little houses 432 00:13:16.780 --> 00:13:18.399 that were all being placed next to 433 00:13:18.400 --> 00:13:20.049 each other. I wanted it to be a big 434 00:13:20.050 --> 00:13:21.939 building with a lot of people in 435 00:13:21.940 --> 00:13:23.589 it who could talk to each other in 436 00:13:23.590 --> 00:13:25.479 the same way, as I now 437 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:27.339 reflect upon it, that scientists are 438 00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:29.439 accustomed to talking to each other. 439 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:31.989 So I built that book 440 00:13:31.990 --> 00:13:34.179 so that I-- 441 00:13:34.180 --> 00:13:36.219 I built that book in a way 442 00:13:36.220 --> 00:13:38.169 that would not only allow but 443 00:13:38.170 --> 00:13:40.329 encourage, and really in 444 00:13:40.330 --> 00:13:42.189 some ways require, the people who 445 00:13:42.190 --> 00:13:44.109 are contributing to it to 446 00:13:44.110 --> 00:13:46.179 read each other 447 00:13:46.180 --> 00:13:48.789 and reflect on each other and, 448 00:13:48.790 --> 00:13:50.379 where possible, respond to each 449 00:13:50.380 --> 00:13:52.539 other. So that the book would have 450 00:13:52.540 --> 00:13:54.259 not only seams that would draw 451 00:13:54.260 --> 00:13:56.259 together areas of shared concern 452 00:13:56.260 --> 00:13:58.089 that would be explicitly marked 453 00:13:58.090 --> 00:14:00.279 from one essay to another, but also 454 00:14:00.280 --> 00:14:01.719 so that a lot of the 455 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:04.659 cross-references, which were 456 00:14:04.660 --> 00:14:06.519 made clear in footnotes as opposed 457 00:14:06.520 --> 00:14:07.779 to end notes for the rest of the 458 00:14:07.780 --> 00:14:08.780 apparatus, 459 00:14:09.880 --> 00:14:11.679 that these cross-references could 460 00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:13.539 provide multiple paths through the 461 00:14:13.540 --> 00:14:15.459 book corresponding to the fact that 462 00:14:15.460 --> 00:14:17.019 histories can be told in different 463 00:14:17.020 --> 00:14:18.309 ways. 464 00:14:18.310 --> 00:14:20.139 And so that book 465 00:14:20.140 --> 00:14:22.299 was a commitment to the complexity 466 00:14:22.300 --> 00:14:23.300 of storytelling. That 467 00:14:24.130 --> 00:14:25.959 when you're doing literary history, 468 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:28.269 you have to acknowledge, I think, 469 00:14:28.270 --> 00:14:30.819 that literary history 470 00:14:30.820 --> 00:14:33.489 is the creation of a story, 471 00:14:33.490 --> 00:14:34.531 and it's a contingent story. 472 00:14:34.532 --> 00:14:36.579 And that if that story 473 00:14:36.580 --> 00:14:38.439 acknowledges the messiness 474 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:40.269 of the field and the way that 475 00:14:40.270 --> 00:14:41.589 you can construct so many other 476 00:14:41.590 --> 00:14:43.539 paths through it, then people 477 00:14:43.540 --> 00:14:45.579 who read that story will come 478 00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:47.739 away with a richer understanding 479 00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:49.719 of what's happened in American 480 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:50.730 literature since 481 00:14:52.750 --> 00:14:54.129 we came together and started writing 482 00:14:54.130 --> 00:14:55.039 novels in the first place. 483 00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:56.040 So 484 00:14:58.210 --> 00:14:58.989 that's that story. 485 00:14:58.990 --> 00:15:01.449 But for me in particular, 486 00:15:01.450 --> 00:15:02.469 my experience in the world of 487 00:15:02.470 --> 00:15:03.470 physics 488 00:15:04.420 --> 00:15:06.879 upon reflection was 489 00:15:06.880 --> 00:15:09.249 deeply important to 490 00:15:09.250 --> 00:15:11.739 my developing commitment to 491 00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:12.818 dialog, conversation, and 492 00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:16.659 shared commitment to 493 00:15:16.660 --> 00:15:19.179 our purposes in higher education. 494 00:15:19.180 --> 00:15:21.429 And the ways in which we can 495 00:15:21.430 --> 00:15:23.109 reflect upon and reform our 496 00:15:23.110 --> 00:15:24.669 professional workplaces, 497 00:15:24.670 --> 00:15:26.169 particularly the ones that deal with 498 00:15:26.170 --> 00:15:27.939 the training of graduate students. 499 00:15:27.940 --> 00:15:29.679 I think that the sciences helped to 500 00:15:29.680 --> 00:15:31.501 teach me about the 501 00:15:33.130 --> 00:15:35.469 palpable importance 502 00:15:35.470 --> 00:15:37.959 of collaboration and conversation 503 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:40.269 at a time, I might add, when 504 00:15:40.270 --> 00:15:42.279 21st century technology makes 505 00:15:42.280 --> 00:15:44.469 the collaboration among humanists 506 00:15:44.470 --> 00:15:46.779 to be much easier 507 00:15:46.780 --> 00:15:48.609 to do and 508 00:15:48.610 --> 00:15:50.199 really a much more sensible 509 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:51.435 objective for us to have. 510 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:53.480 There's 511 00:15:54.310 --> 00:15:56.169 an old saying that solo 512 00:15:56.170 --> 00:15:57.999 piano players rarely played together 513 00:15:59.620 --> 00:16:01.479 for some obvious logistical 514 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:03.609 reasons, and humanists 515 00:16:03.610 --> 00:16:05.469 are, in many ways, the solo piano 516 00:16:05.470 --> 00:16:07.419 players in 517 00:16:07.420 --> 00:16:09.609 the academic universe. 518 00:16:09.610 --> 00:16:11.529 But we now have technology 519 00:16:11.530 --> 00:16:13.419 that enables a lot of pianos to be 520 00:16:13.420 --> 00:16:15.009 in the same room at once. 521 00:16:15.010 --> 00:16:16.839 And I think 522 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:18.729 we all benefit when we work 523 00:16:18.730 --> 00:16:20.169 together - when we share ideas 524 00:16:20.170 --> 00:16:22.209 because we are a community of 525 00:16:22.210 --> 00:16:22.989 intellectuals. 526 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:24.369 And to the extent that we think of 527 00:16:24.370 --> 00:16:26.579 ourselves as something other than 528 00:16:26.580 --> 00:16:28.449 a community, as a 529 00:16:28.450 --> 00:16:30.132 unitary set. As I said, that 530 00:16:31.210 --> 00:16:32.229 to the extent that we think of 531 00:16:32.230 --> 00:16:33.459 ourselves as something other than a 532 00:16:33.460 --> 00:16:35.799 community, as 533 00:16:35.800 --> 00:16:37.899 unitary individuals 534 00:16:37.900 --> 00:16:39.609 who are engaged in solitary 535 00:16:39.610 --> 00:16:41.619 intellectual pursuits, we 536 00:16:41.620 --> 00:16:43.479 ill-serve ourselves, we 537 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:45.309 ill-serve our students, and we 538 00:16:45.310 --> 00:16:46.749 ill-serve society at large. 539 00:16:46.750 --> 00:16:48.849 So we all benefit 540 00:16:48.850 --> 00:16:50.979 from thinking of the 541 00:16:50.980 --> 00:16:52.839 work that we do as a 542 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:53.840 collective enterprise. 543 00:16:55.230 --> 00:16:56.349 Well, another writer who has meant a 544 00:16:56.350 --> 00:16:57.519 lot to you throughout your career 545 00:16:57.520 --> 00:16:58.989 has been Oliver Sacks. 546 00:16:58.990 --> 00:17:01.299 And I wonder if 547 00:17:01.300 --> 00:17:03.429 he's certainly someone who crosses 548 00:17:03.430 --> 00:17:05.289 disciplinary boundaries and breaks 549 00:17:05.290 --> 00:17:06.489 those barriers down. 550 00:17:06.490 --> 00:17:07.598 And I wonder if this is one of the 551 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:09.429 things that appeals to 552 00:17:09.430 --> 00:17:11.189 you in his work. 553 00:17:11.190 --> 00:17:13.118 My interest in Oliver Sacks as I 554 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:14.227 reflect upon that as well. 555 00:17:14.228 --> 00:17:16.179 I first came to Oliver 556 00:17:16.180 --> 00:17:17.889 Sacks - his work -simply because I 557 00:17:17.890 --> 00:17:19.209 found it fascinating. 558 00:17:19.210 --> 00:17:21.309 I didn't feel the need at first to 559 00:17:21.310 --> 00:17:23.139 ask why that was so because I 560 00:17:23.140 --> 00:17:24.969 was reading him for pleasure, and I 561 00:17:24.970 --> 00:17:26.529 didn't think of what he was doing as 562 00:17:26.530 --> 00:17:27.909 literature as such. 563 00:17:27.910 --> 00:17:29.889 Although as I look back 564 00:17:29.890 --> 00:17:31.209 at it, I realize I should have 565 00:17:31.210 --> 00:17:33.399 because he is a storyteller 566 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:35.569 of the highest order. 567 00:17:35.570 --> 00:17:37.429 But I thought that these were 568 00:17:37.430 --> 00:17:40.549 really neat, interesting scientific 569 00:17:40.550 --> 00:17:41.599 cases. 570 00:17:41.600 --> 00:17:42.649 And I read them. 571 00:17:42.650 --> 00:17:43.549 I gobbled them up. 572 00:17:43.550 --> 00:17:45.139 They were like mints. 573 00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:47.419 But when the time came 574 00:17:47.420 --> 00:17:49.279 for me to think about 575 00:17:49.280 --> 00:17:51.289 what they meant, I 576 00:17:51.290 --> 00:17:52.549 realized that they were consistent 577 00:17:52.550 --> 00:17:53.869 not only with a whole bunch of my 578 00:17:53.870 --> 00:17:55.969 own interests but also that 579 00:17:55.970 --> 00:17:58.099 Sacks's mission, which was 580 00:17:58.100 --> 00:17:59.989 a lifelong mission as a writer 581 00:17:59.990 --> 00:18:02.059 to try to bring 582 00:18:02.060 --> 00:18:04.339 storytelling and science together, 583 00:18:04.340 --> 00:18:06.769 was absolutely consistent 584 00:18:06.770 --> 00:18:09.259 with my developing commitments 585 00:18:09.260 --> 00:18:11.809 as an intellectual 586 00:18:11.810 --> 00:18:12.810 with a position in- with 587 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:16.819 a public position in our 588 00:18:16.820 --> 00:18:18.049 society. 589 00:18:18.050 --> 00:18:20.089 Sacks died a few weeks ago, 590 00:18:20.090 --> 00:18:22.099 and I was very sad 591 00:18:22.100 --> 00:18:23.100 to see him go. But 592 00:18:24.020 --> 00:18:26.119 I felt privileged not simply 593 00:18:26.120 --> 00:18:27.769 to read him, but I was lucky enough 594 00:18:27.770 --> 00:18:29.809 to meet him, and he 595 00:18:29.810 --> 00:18:30.810 had read me. So 596 00:18:32.810 --> 00:18:34.279 in some small way, we were 597 00:18:34.280 --> 00:18:35.929 contributing to each other. 598 00:18:35.930 --> 00:18:37.879 He contributed to me, I think, much 599 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:39.499 more than I contributed to him. 600 00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:41.479 But knowing that he was 601 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:43.129 reading my work and that we were in 602 00:18:43.130 --> 00:18:45.229 a dialog with each other 603 00:18:45.230 --> 00:18:47.209 in a way, that was 604 00:18:47.210 --> 00:18:48.979 an example of some of the 605 00:18:48.980 --> 00:18:51.769 collaboration that can take place 606 00:18:51.770 --> 00:18:53.629 on an intellectual level when 607 00:18:53.630 --> 00:18:55.519 we think of ourselves 608 00:18:55.520 --> 00:18:57.499 as a large community within 609 00:18:57.500 --> 00:18:58.500 higher education. 610 00:18:59.930 --> 00:19:00.889 One other thing you've written about 611 00:19:00.890 --> 00:19:01.759 during your career is disability 612 00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:02.689 studies. 613 00:19:02.690 --> 00:19:03.859 I wonder if you can say a bit about 614 00:19:03.860 --> 00:19:05.539 the role that you feel the 615 00:19:05.540 --> 00:19:07.369 humanities has to play 616 00:19:07.370 --> 00:19:08.370 in that field. 617 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.059 It seems to me that most 618 00:19:11.060 --> 00:19:13.519 scholarship that 619 00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:15.499 really has a chance to last 620 00:19:15.500 --> 00:19:17.419 that is reflective of the kind 621 00:19:17.420 --> 00:19:19.399 of deep commitments that 622 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:21.619 give it the potential 623 00:19:21.620 --> 00:19:23.599 to have staying power in our world. 624 00:19:23.600 --> 00:19:25.549 That kind of scholarship 625 00:19:25.550 --> 00:19:27.919 has some kind of autobiographical 626 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:29.149 component. 627 00:19:29.150 --> 00:19:30.259 Some of the things that I've read, 628 00:19:30.260 --> 00:19:32.059 I've never had any trouble finding 629 00:19:32.060 --> 00:19:34.009 the autobiography. 630 00:19:34.010 --> 00:19:35.119 In much of the writing that I've 631 00:19:35.120 --> 00:19:36.120 done, I 632 00:19:36.950 --> 00:19:38.899 can see the autobiography in it. 633 00:19:38.900 --> 00:19:40.849 In some cases, the autobiography 634 00:19:40.850 --> 00:19:42.169 comes later. 635 00:19:42.170 --> 00:19:44.029 And there is, as 636 00:19:44.030 --> 00:19:45.409 I reflect upon it, certainly a 637 00:19:45.410 --> 00:19:47.299 continuum that 638 00:19:47.300 --> 00:19:49.219 links my work on the 639 00:19:49.220 --> 00:19:51.229 grotesque body to my 640 00:19:51.230 --> 00:19:53.119 work on disability, to my 641 00:19:53.120 --> 00:19:54.889 work on science and medicine, and 642 00:19:54.890 --> 00:19:56.629 certainly to my work on Oliver 643 00:19:56.630 --> 00:19:57.619 Sacks. 644 00:19:57.620 --> 00:20:00.289 And it is 645 00:20:00.290 --> 00:20:02.389 reflective as I 646 00:20:02.390 --> 00:20:03.246 look back on it again. 647 00:20:03.247 --> 00:20:04.969 We reflect back, and we tell 648 00:20:04.970 --> 00:20:05.779 stories. 649 00:20:05.780 --> 00:20:07.759 As I reflect back on the work that I 650 00:20:07.760 --> 00:20:10.069 have done, I see that it 651 00:20:10.070 --> 00:20:12.379 amounts to an argument 652 00:20:12.380 --> 00:20:14.629 that the humanities has 653 00:20:14.630 --> 00:20:16.699 much to say to 654 00:20:16.700 --> 00:20:18.829 other disciplines to help 655 00:20:18.830 --> 00:20:20.929 it-- to help them understand 656 00:20:20.930 --> 00:20:22.219 their own missions. 657 00:20:22.220 --> 00:20:24.049 And in turn, other 658 00:20:24.050 --> 00:20:25.849 disciplines do the same for the 659 00:20:25.850 --> 00:20:26.809 humanities. 660 00:20:26.810 --> 00:20:29.299 And for me, I feel that in 661 00:20:29.300 --> 00:20:31.489 my writing and in my career, 662 00:20:31.490 --> 00:20:33.349 I have experienced that from both 663 00:20:33.350 --> 00:20:35.389 sides. That it's absolutely 664 00:20:35.390 --> 00:20:37.459 central to 665 00:20:37.460 --> 00:20:39.139 the kinds of questions that I've 666 00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:41.089 asked and the answers that I have 667 00:20:41.090 --> 00:20:43.789 been able to arrive at for myself. 668 00:20:43.790 --> 00:20:45.319 Well, your commitment to the 669 00:20:45.320 --> 00:20:47.209 permeability between the humanities 670 00:20:47.210 --> 00:20:48.316 and other fields certainly, I think, 671 00:20:48.317 --> 00:20:50.269 makes you a perfect addition to this 672 00:20:50.270 --> 00:20:51.649 project. And we're very happy to 673 00:20:51.650 --> 00:20:53.359 have you here talking about these 674 00:20:53.360 --> 00:20:54.199 issues. 675 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:55.939 Well, I've thought of myself as a 676 00:20:55.940 --> 00:20:58.309 writer for a long time, and 677 00:20:58.310 --> 00:20:59.380 I'm grateful that 678 00:21:00.800 --> 00:21:01.800 I'm able to 679 00:21:02.780 --> 00:21:04.639 look at myself and say, 680 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:06.649 "Okay, that's what you do." 681 00:21:06.650 --> 00:21:08.659 But defining the idea 682 00:21:08.660 --> 00:21:11.059 of being a writer for myself, 683 00:21:11.060 --> 00:21:13.069 I realized that for me, it took 684 00:21:13.070 --> 00:21:15.049 a while for me to 685 00:21:15.050 --> 00:21:16.789 understand what being a writer means 686 00:21:16.790 --> 00:21:17.659 for me. 687 00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:19.489 And after a while, 688 00:21:19.490 --> 00:21:20.869 I realized that what it meant was 689 00:21:20.870 --> 00:21:22.789 being able to follow my 690 00:21:22.790 --> 00:21:24.619 interests, follow my nose, 691 00:21:24.620 --> 00:21:26.719 and write stories 692 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:28.579 about what it 693 00:21:28.580 --> 00:21:30.469 is that interests me, 694 00:21:30.470 --> 00:21:32.299 and be able to share those 695 00:21:32.300 --> 00:21:33.739 stories with other people who might 696 00:21:33.740 --> 00:21:35.209 find them interesting, too. 697 00:21:35.210 --> 00:21:37.159 That is, at its heart, a humanistic 698 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:39.769 enterprise. It's storytelling, 699 00:21:39.770 --> 00:21:41.659 but it is also, at its heart, a 700 00:21:41.660 --> 00:21:43.099 multidisciplinary enterprise. 701 00:21:43.100 --> 00:21:45.739 Because my interests, my curiosity 702 00:21:45.740 --> 00:21:47.539 leads me in all kinds of different 703 00:21:47.540 --> 00:21:48.379 directions. 704 00:21:48.380 --> 00:21:50.239 And I've never stopped being the 705 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:51.919 science student that I was in high 706 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:52.819 school. 707 00:21:52.820 --> 00:21:54.349 I've just become a different kind of 708 00:21:54.350 --> 00:21:55.350 science student. 709 00:21:57.056 --> 00:21:58.819 One of the articles I read of 710 00:21:58.820 --> 00:22:00.019 yours-- in one of the articles, you 711 00:22:00.020 --> 00:22:01.789 mention that you have a little bit 712 00:22:01.790 --> 00:22:02.929 of-- you feel you have a little 713 00:22:02.930 --> 00:22:05.149 better training in the sciences 714 00:22:05.150 --> 00:22:06.529 than many other humanists. 715 00:22:06.530 --> 00:22:08.359 Have you had any formal training in 716 00:22:08.360 --> 00:22:09.469 science, or is it just something you 717 00:22:09.470 --> 00:22:10.489 keep up with on your own? 718 00:22:10.490 --> 00:22:12.409 I did some science in college, but 719 00:22:12.410 --> 00:22:13.609 not really. Not very much. 720 00:22:13.610 --> 00:22:15.979 It is more a question of maintaining 721 00:22:15.980 --> 00:22:17.959 my scientific literacy and 722 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:19.609 maintaining my curiosity and 723 00:22:19.610 --> 00:22:21.709 continuing to read and find 724 00:22:21.710 --> 00:22:22.710 out. 725 00:22:25.280 --> 00:22:26.509 We've been talking with Leonard 726 00:22:26.510 --> 00:22:28.249 Cassuto, professor of English at 727 00:22:28.250 --> 00:22:30.079 Fordham University and columnist for 728 00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:31.459 the Chronicle of Higher Education. 729 00:22:32.870 --> 00:22:34.219 Cassuto has borrowed Oliver Sacks's 730 00:22:34.220 --> 00:22:36.419 term "romantic science" to describe 731 00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:37.769 a kind of writing that looks to 732 00:22:37.770 --> 00:22:39.599 build a bridge between science and 733 00:22:39.600 --> 00:22:41.279 the humanities. 734 00:22:41.280 --> 00:22:43.199 I asked Cassuto about the term, and 735 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:44.489 he recalled that when he interviewed 736 00:22:44.490 --> 00:22:45.899 Sacks and reminded him of the 737 00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:47.849 phrase, Sacks stepped back from 738 00:22:47.850 --> 00:22:49.259 it, thinking that it was too 739 00:22:49.260 --> 00:22:50.579 grandiose. 740 00:22:50.580 --> 00:22:53.099 Cassuto, however, disagrees. 741 00:22:53.100 --> 00:22:54.389 I think that he was wrong about 742 00:22:54.390 --> 00:22:56.399 that. I think that his 743 00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:58.739 stated desire to found a romantic 744 00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:00.839 science was really much 745 00:23:00.840 --> 00:23:02.669 more central 746 00:23:02.670 --> 00:23:04.439 to what he was doing than he might 747 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:06.389 have been willing to admit later on. 748 00:23:06.390 --> 00:23:08.279 And that kind 749 00:23:08.280 --> 00:23:10.499 of romantic science for him became, 750 00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:12.899 as he aged, more and more personal. 751 00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:15.419 And I watched that happen, 752 00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:17.249 and I hope that 753 00:23:17.250 --> 00:23:18.629 I've been able to learn from it. 754 00:23:18.630 --> 00:23:19.739 And I hope that I'll continue to 755 00:23:19.740 --> 00:23:21.869 learn from it because as 756 00:23:21.870 --> 00:23:23.819 we become more established 757 00:23:23.820 --> 00:23:25.799 and more confident in what we do, I 758 00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:28.499 hope that it can enable us to become 759 00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:30.659 more personal because stories 760 00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:32.699 are told by storytellers. 761 00:23:32.700 --> 00:23:34.589 And when we can 762 00:23:34.590 --> 00:23:35.849 give insight into the mind of the 763 00:23:35.850 --> 00:23:37.799 storyteller, the story becomes 764 00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:38.729 richer. 765 00:23:38.730 --> 00:23:40.769 And the transit in my life 766 00:23:40.770 --> 00:23:42.749 and in my world between 767 00:23:42.750 --> 00:23:45.689 science and the humanities 768 00:23:45.690 --> 00:23:47.009 has certainly enriched me. 769 00:23:48.660 --> 00:23:50.159 At this point, one of the other 770 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:51.419 things to me that stands out about 771 00:23:51.420 --> 00:23:52.739 your writing career is that you've 772 00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:54.689 written for a very wide variety of 773 00:23:54.690 --> 00:23:56.519 publications and also 774 00:23:56.520 --> 00:23:58.199 for a wide variety of general 775 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:00.059 interest publications. 776 00:24:00.060 --> 00:24:01.469 I wonder if you can talk a little 777 00:24:01.470 --> 00:24:03.269 bit about how you got started doing 778 00:24:03.270 --> 00:24:04.880 that. And in particular, what 779 00:24:05.940 --> 00:24:07.739 made you sure that you could do this 780 00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:09.089 kind of work that is right for 781 00:24:09.090 --> 00:24:10.499 general audiences? 782 00:24:10.500 --> 00:24:12.149 As far as becoming a writer? 783 00:24:12.150 --> 00:24:14.789 I think I always had a confidence 784 00:24:14.790 --> 00:24:16.649 that I could do the 785 00:24:16.650 --> 00:24:18.599 work and that it 786 00:24:18.600 --> 00:24:20.549 was a matter of finding 787 00:24:20.550 --> 00:24:22.799 venues that would 788 00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:24.839 take me on in order to do that work. 789 00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:26.339 And so then I saw it as a task of 790 00:24:26.340 --> 00:24:27.719 persuasion. 791 00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.269 I knew that, as in any workplace, 792 00:24:30.270 --> 00:24:31.889 the more experience you have, the 793 00:24:31.890 --> 00:24:33.539 more credibility you have. 794 00:24:33.540 --> 00:24:35.429 And so I set about acquiring 795 00:24:35.430 --> 00:24:37.469 experience, and I did what you do 796 00:24:37.470 --> 00:24:38.339 in any workplace. 797 00:24:38.340 --> 00:24:39.609 I tried to network. 798 00:24:39.610 --> 00:24:41.489 So I'll tell 799 00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:42.899 the story of the first piece that I 800 00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:44.519 ever published for general 801 00:24:44.520 --> 00:24:45.869 audiences, which happened to be in 802 00:24:45.870 --> 00:24:47.369 the Chronicle of Higher Education, 803 00:24:47.370 --> 00:24:48.689 where I'm now a columnist. 804 00:24:48.690 --> 00:24:50.729 But as you've said, 805 00:24:50.730 --> 00:24:52.739 I've done this with many 806 00:24:52.740 --> 00:24:53.740 other venues. But 807 00:24:55.330 --> 00:24:56.459 in the case of the Chronicle of 808 00:24:56.460 --> 00:24:58.829 Higher Ed, I 809 00:24:58.830 --> 00:25:00.779 saw that there was a writer who 810 00:25:00.780 --> 00:25:02.579 was writing some of the kinds of 811 00:25:02.580 --> 00:25:05.519 pieces that I had in mind. 812 00:25:05.520 --> 00:25:08.339 And so I wrote a piece 813 00:25:08.340 --> 00:25:09.509 about, in fact, the 814 00:25:09.510 --> 00:25:10.799 professionalization of graduate 815 00:25:10.800 --> 00:25:12.809 students, which, given it's 816 00:25:12.810 --> 00:25:14.309 the central concern of that issue to 817 00:25:14.310 --> 00:25:16.169 my career right now, is a way 818 00:25:16.170 --> 00:25:17.639 that I've come full circle. 819 00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:19.259 So I wrote that piece, and instead 820 00:25:19.260 --> 00:25:20.249 of sending it directly to the 821 00:25:20.250 --> 00:25:22.259 Chronicle, I first wrote 822 00:25:22.260 --> 00:25:24.359 an email asking for advice 823 00:25:24.360 --> 00:25:25.649 from that writer who had written 824 00:25:25.650 --> 00:25:26.650 similar pieces. 825 00:25:27.870 --> 00:25:29.729 I asked him not only for advice 826 00:25:29.730 --> 00:25:31.739 but also for any help 827 00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:33.719 that he might have in connecting me 828 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:35.159 because networking is important in 829 00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:36.569 any workplace. 830 00:25:36.570 --> 00:25:38.399 And he did suggest 831 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:40.529 that I could approach his editor. 832 00:25:40.530 --> 00:25:42.449 He gave me the email address, and 833 00:25:42.450 --> 00:25:44.549 he said I could mention his name. 834 00:25:44.550 --> 00:25:46.469 I never found out 835 00:25:46.470 --> 00:25:48.869 what importance that 836 00:25:48.870 --> 00:25:50.759 mention may have had, 837 00:25:50.760 --> 00:25:52.619 but the editor accepted 838 00:25:52.620 --> 00:25:53.399 that for his piece. 839 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:54.779 And I was off. 840 00:25:54.780 --> 00:25:56.609 And once you get the first clip, you 841 00:25:56.610 --> 00:25:57.809 can use the first clip to get the 842 00:25:57.810 --> 00:25:59.160 second clip, and so on. 843 00:26:00.540 --> 00:26:02.579 Recently in the Chronicle Review, 844 00:26:02.580 --> 00:26:03.989 Mark Greif, who is one of the 845 00:26:03.990 --> 00:26:05.360 founding editors of N+1, 846 00:26:06.810 --> 00:26:09.089 reflected on his experience starting 847 00:26:09.090 --> 00:26:10.529 that journal. 848 00:26:10.530 --> 00:26:12.149 And he said something that I thought 849 00:26:12.150 --> 00:26:13.589 was very interesting, particularly 850 00:26:13.590 --> 00:26:14.489 in light of your career. 851 00:26:14.490 --> 00:26:15.543 He said that when he was starting, 852 00:26:15.544 --> 00:26:17.459 one of the things that 853 00:26:17.460 --> 00:26:19.289 he expected to find 854 00:26:19.290 --> 00:26:21.239 was that faculty were 855 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:22.949 a great resource for what he wanted 856 00:26:22.950 --> 00:26:24.779 to do. And that was to 857 00:26:24.780 --> 00:26:26.489 publish an intellectual journal that 858 00:26:26.490 --> 00:26:28.439 had social implications 859 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:29.579 and was socially engaged. 860 00:26:30.630 --> 00:26:33.419 But reflecting on his experience 861 00:26:33.420 --> 00:26:35.519 in the early years of the journal, 862 00:26:35.520 --> 00:26:36.929 he said that he was disappointed to 863 00:26:36.930 --> 00:26:38.909 find that professors 864 00:26:38.910 --> 00:26:41.039 were not a good resource for 865 00:26:41.040 --> 00:26:42.149 this kind of socially engaged 866 00:26:42.150 --> 00:26:44.099 intellectual work. Not because 867 00:26:44.100 --> 00:26:45.962 their work was too academic but 868 00:26:47.100 --> 00:26:49.169 because he felt that faculty members 869 00:26:49.170 --> 00:26:51.089 would dumb their work down for 870 00:26:51.090 --> 00:26:52.090 the public. 871 00:26:52.620 --> 00:26:53.699 Now, what he's talking about there, 872 00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:55.229 I think, is a gap between 873 00:26:56.520 --> 00:26:57.899 faculty and between the general 874 00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:59.399 public. And I wonder, as someone 875 00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:01.319 who's written as much as you have 876 00:27:01.320 --> 00:27:03.179 for the general public, is 877 00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:04.469 that gap something that you've come 878 00:27:04.470 --> 00:27:06.389 up against during your career 879 00:27:06.390 --> 00:27:07.259 at all? 880 00:27:07.260 --> 00:27:09.269 There is certainly a gap 881 00:27:09.270 --> 00:27:10.949 between scholars and the general 882 00:27:10.950 --> 00:27:12.569 public because there is a perceived 883 00:27:12.570 --> 00:27:14.549 gap in the same way that we can say 884 00:27:14.550 --> 00:27:16.829 that race is not a biological 885 00:27:16.830 --> 00:27:18.449 reality but rather a social 886 00:27:18.450 --> 00:27:19.679 construction. 887 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:21.539 As a social construction, it has a 888 00:27:21.540 --> 00:27:23.069 reality. 889 00:27:23.070 --> 00:27:24.989 And so there is a way 890 00:27:24.990 --> 00:27:26.909 that there is a-- there 891 00:27:26.910 --> 00:27:28.769 is a gap between scholars 892 00:27:28.770 --> 00:27:30.569 and the general public because there 893 00:27:30.570 --> 00:27:32.099 is a perceived gap. 894 00:27:32.100 --> 00:27:33.689 Now, should that gap exist? 895 00:27:33.690 --> 00:27:35.829 Is there some concrete reason 896 00:27:35.830 --> 00:27:37.749 for that gap? Is there some work 897 00:27:37.750 --> 00:27:39.759 that scholars do that the general 898 00:27:39.760 --> 00:27:41.049 public is, for some reason, not 899 00:27:41.050 --> 00:27:42.219 capable of grasping? 900 00:27:42.220 --> 00:27:44.649 No. Emphatically no. 901 00:27:44.650 --> 00:27:46.509 That there is every 902 00:27:46.510 --> 00:27:48.399 reason for scholars and the general 903 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:50.799 public to be engaged in constant 904 00:27:50.800 --> 00:27:52.929 dialog on a whole variety of topics 905 00:27:52.930 --> 00:27:54.339 of common interest. 906 00:27:54.340 --> 00:27:56.439 And if my writing career 907 00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:57.440 means anything, 908 00:27:59.650 --> 00:28:02.169 it means trying to forge 909 00:28:02.170 --> 00:28:04.329 those bonds and to show 910 00:28:04.330 --> 00:28:06.189 the general public that 911 00:28:06.190 --> 00:28:08.289 professors are just like anybody 912 00:28:08.290 --> 00:28:10.089 else. They're curious people who 913 00:28:10.090 --> 00:28:11.949 want to learn things and to 914 00:28:11.950 --> 00:28:13.509 be able to share what they know. 915 00:28:13.510 --> 00:28:14.979 So, your career seems to stand as 916 00:28:14.980 --> 00:28:17.199 sort of a counterexample to Mark 917 00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:18.339 Greif's point. Not only because you 918 00:28:18.340 --> 00:28:20.199 publish in venues meant for a 919 00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:21.819 general audience, but also because 920 00:28:21.820 --> 00:28:23.349 you publish on works of popular 921 00:28:23.350 --> 00:28:24.729 culture. And you bring these into 922 00:28:24.730 --> 00:28:27.009 conversation with works that 923 00:28:27.010 --> 00:28:29.529 would be considered more scholarly. 924 00:28:29.530 --> 00:28:30.940 I think so. I think that the 925 00:28:32.530 --> 00:28:34.419 perceived gap also between high 926 00:28:34.420 --> 00:28:36.399 and low culture is 927 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:37.624 also-- I 928 00:28:39.850 --> 00:28:41.079 think the perceived gap between high 929 00:28:41.080 --> 00:28:43.359 and low culture is also pernicious 930 00:28:43.360 --> 00:28:45.219 because so-called 931 00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:47.049 low culture or, in the case of 932 00:28:47.050 --> 00:28:48.699 what I've studied, genre fiction. 933 00:28:48.700 --> 00:28:50.709 Genre fiction has a lot to tell us 934 00:28:50.710 --> 00:28:52.899 and a lot of complexities that 935 00:28:52.900 --> 00:28:54.759 are underappreciated, 936 00:28:54.760 --> 00:28:57.219 underestimated, and in some cases, 937 00:28:57.220 --> 00:28:58.179 not written about. 938 00:28:58.180 --> 00:29:00.039 So I think we all suffer if 939 00:29:00.040 --> 00:29:02.079 we try to draw boundaries 940 00:29:02.080 --> 00:29:03.080 around what we do. 941 00:29:04.180 --> 00:29:05.949 So you edited The Cambridge History 942 00:29:05.950 --> 00:29:07.899 of the American Novel that came out 943 00:29:07.900 --> 00:29:09.909 in 2011, and then you were 944 00:29:09.910 --> 00:29:12.279 promptly called a barbarian. 945 00:29:12.280 --> 00:29:13.509 I thought that your response to that 946 00:29:13.510 --> 00:29:14.859 in the Chronicle of Higher Education 947 00:29:14.860 --> 00:29:16.929 was very skillful-- a very generous 948 00:29:16.930 --> 00:29:17.949 response. 949 00:29:17.950 --> 00:29:19.389 But in it, you also mentioned that 950 00:29:19.390 --> 00:29:20.799 several of your colleagues had 951 00:29:20.800 --> 00:29:23.409 advised you not to respond at all. 952 00:29:23.410 --> 00:29:24.969 Can you take us through that process 953 00:29:24.970 --> 00:29:26.529 of deciding, first of all, to 954 00:29:26.530 --> 00:29:27.699 respond and then talking a little 955 00:29:27.700 --> 00:29:29.889 bit about how you responded? 956 00:29:29.890 --> 00:29:31.179 There was an interesting episode in 957 00:29:31.180 --> 00:29:33.009 my career when I published 958 00:29:33.010 --> 00:29:35.169 what I considered to be a 959 00:29:35.170 --> 00:29:37.299 solidly middle-of-the-road literary 960 00:29:37.300 --> 00:29:39.249 history that was designed 961 00:29:39.250 --> 00:29:41.289 to promote open dialog 962 00:29:41.290 --> 00:29:42.849 among not only its many 963 00:29:42.850 --> 00:29:44.919 contributors, but implicitly 964 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:46.479 with its readers as well. 965 00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:48.549 And I was accused 966 00:29:48.550 --> 00:29:50.649 of being a barbarian, 967 00:29:50.650 --> 00:29:52.779 illiterate-- a cultural barbarian 968 00:29:52.780 --> 00:29:54.849 who had taken over 969 00:29:54.850 --> 00:29:57.129 the belletristic realm of literature 970 00:29:57.130 --> 00:29:59.049 to spread various 971 00:29:59.050 --> 00:30:01.059 forms of evil, 972 00:30:01.060 --> 00:30:03.129 academic influence, and 973 00:30:03.130 --> 00:30:05.259 intelligible theory. 974 00:30:05.260 --> 00:30:06.879 Well, this certainly was very far 975 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:08.799 from my intention and also, 976 00:30:08.800 --> 00:30:09.879 I believe, very far from the 977 00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:11.079 reality. 978 00:30:11.080 --> 00:30:12.999 And I also understood 979 00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:15.399 that being called a barbarian in 980 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:17.049 The Wall Street Journal is a lot 981 00:30:17.050 --> 00:30:18.339 better than being called nothing at 982 00:30:18.340 --> 00:30:20.799 all by nowhere, nobody, anywhere. 983 00:30:20.800 --> 00:30:23.199 And that it was an invitation, 984 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:25.599 however, of course, to 985 00:30:25.600 --> 00:30:27.639 dialog, and that if I was going 986 00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:29.859 to be addressed rudely, perhaps 987 00:30:29.860 --> 00:30:31.209 I should consider answering. 988 00:30:31.210 --> 00:30:33.069 Now there were those who in my 989 00:30:33.070 --> 00:30:35.049 own profession who advised me 990 00:30:35.050 --> 00:30:37.149 to keep quiet, that I shouldn't 991 00:30:37.150 --> 00:30:38.829 say anything, and that I should 992 00:30:38.830 --> 00:30:39.830 simply let 993 00:30:40.840 --> 00:30:42.909 the insult wither on the vine. 994 00:30:42.910 --> 00:30:44.439 But I didn't take the insult 995 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:46.299 personally in the first place. 996 00:30:46.300 --> 00:30:48.219 It was dealt 997 00:30:48.220 --> 00:30:50.049 out by a well-known cultural 998 00:30:50.050 --> 00:30:52.329 curmudgeon, Joseph Epstein, 999 00:30:52.330 --> 00:30:54.219 whose antiquated views I don't 1000 00:30:54.220 --> 00:30:55.419 have all that much respect for in 1001 00:30:55.420 --> 00:30:56.379 the first place. 1002 00:30:56.380 --> 00:30:58.209 But leaving that alone, there 1003 00:30:58.210 --> 00:30:59.679 were those who suggested that I 1004 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:01.539 leave that insult to wither on the 1005 00:31:01.540 --> 00:31:03.309 vine. But it seemed to me that if I 1006 00:31:03.310 --> 00:31:05.559 did that, I would be 1007 00:31:05.560 --> 00:31:08.379 adding to the 1008 00:31:08.380 --> 00:31:11.019 reputation that professors have 1009 00:31:11.020 --> 00:31:13.509 for staying within 1010 00:31:13.510 --> 00:31:15.429 their ivory towers 1011 00:31:15.430 --> 00:31:17.589 and ignoring what the general 1012 00:31:17.590 --> 00:31:19.719 public has to say about them, 1013 00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:21.669 in this case, in a highly visible 1014 00:31:21.670 --> 00:31:23.499 venue. So in that sense, I felt that 1015 00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:25.659 this demanded response 1016 00:31:25.660 --> 00:31:28.029 because it demanded a conversation. 1017 00:31:28.030 --> 00:31:29.349 And in fact, 1018 00:31:30.940 --> 00:31:32.919 Joseph Epstein was invited to 1019 00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:35.049 have a public debate 1020 00:31:35.050 --> 00:31:37.149 with me in print, not in person, 1021 00:31:37.150 --> 00:31:38.150 where we would exchange 1022 00:31:41.530 --> 00:31:43.749 views back and forth. 1023 00:31:43.750 --> 00:31:44.890 And he declined. 1024 00:31:46.030 --> 00:31:47.949 But nevertheless, I put my view 1025 00:31:47.950 --> 00:31:49.899 out there. So we have his view and 1026 00:31:49.900 --> 00:31:51.009 my response. 1027 00:31:51.010 --> 00:31:52.010 People 1028 00:31:53.830 --> 00:31:55.149 can make up their own mind about who 1029 00:31:55.150 --> 00:31:57.099 is right. There is 1030 00:31:57.100 --> 00:31:58.329 one thing that I can be very clear 1031 00:31:58.330 --> 00:31:59.799 about, though, is that I think I was 1032 00:31:59.800 --> 00:32:01.509 more polite than he was. 1033 00:32:01.510 --> 00:32:02.739 One of the things I thought was good 1034 00:32:02.740 --> 00:32:04.269 about your response to Epstein, was 1035 00:32:04.270 --> 00:32:05.300 that it was an inclusive response. 1036 00:32:05.301 --> 00:32:07.149 And you did not engage 1037 00:32:07.150 --> 00:32:09.189 in his offer to-- you did not take 1038 00:32:09.190 --> 00:32:10.479 him up on his offer to engage in 1039 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:11.199 polemic. 1040 00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:12.729 My commitment in my writing career 1041 00:32:12.730 --> 00:32:14.469 has been toward a kind of 1042 00:32:14.470 --> 00:32:16.449 inclusiveness that I want 1043 00:32:16.450 --> 00:32:17.649 to try to create a larger 1044 00:32:17.650 --> 00:32:19.479 conversation for what it is 1045 00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:21.129 that we professors do, what we 1046 00:32:21.130 --> 00:32:23.439 scholars do, what we humanists 1047 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.029 do. Because the larger the 1048 00:32:25.030 --> 00:32:26.619 conversation, the more influence 1049 00:32:26.620 --> 00:32:28.569 it's going to have on the 1050 00:32:28.570 --> 00:32:29.799 life that we are all living 1051 00:32:29.800 --> 00:32:31.149 together. 1052 00:32:31.150 --> 00:32:32.479 Yes. I have right here, actually, 1053 00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:34.989 the last sentence from 1054 00:32:34.990 --> 00:32:37.089 your response to Joseph 1055 00:32:37.090 --> 00:32:38.101 Epstein. You conclude your response 1056 00:32:38.102 --> 00:32:39.969 talking about yourself by 1057 00:32:39.970 --> 00:32:41.919 saying that "This barbarian suggests 1058 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:43.299 that we all make more of an effort 1059 00:32:43.300 --> 00:32:45.129 to understand each other better." 1060 00:32:45.130 --> 00:32:46.329 And I wonder if, at the end of the 1061 00:32:46.330 --> 00:32:48.099 day, if that's the most important 1062 00:32:48.100 --> 00:32:50.109 thing that the humanities can give 1063 00:32:50.110 --> 00:32:51.579 to us. That is, the tools to 1064 00:32:51.580 --> 00:32:52.719 understand each other better. 1065 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.129 What philosophers wrote in the 18th 1066 00:32:54.130 --> 00:32:55.209 century of the importance of a 1067 00:32:55.210 --> 00:32:57.429 virtue that they called sympathy. 1068 00:32:57.430 --> 00:33:00.279 Today, we would call that empathy. 1069 00:33:00.280 --> 00:33:01.989 That is to say, sympathy in the 18th 1070 00:33:01.990 --> 00:33:03.879 century sense means being 1071 00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:05.569 able to understand the situation, 1072 00:33:05.570 --> 00:33:07.209 the position of somebody else. 1073 00:33:07.210 --> 00:33:09.009 Adam Smith, who we know best as an 1074 00:33:09.010 --> 00:33:11.019 economic philosopher, the inventor 1075 00:33:11.020 --> 00:33:13.059 of the invisible hand, and the 1076 00:33:13.060 --> 00:33:14.499 basis for a lot of fundamental 1077 00:33:14.500 --> 00:33:16.149 theorizing about capitalism, was 1078 00:33:16.150 --> 00:33:18.069 also a moral philosopher who 1079 00:33:18.070 --> 00:33:19.869 wrote a treatise on sympathy, where 1080 00:33:19.870 --> 00:33:21.159 he wrote of the importance of 1081 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:22.810 walking in somebody else's shoes 1082 00:33:23.890 --> 00:33:25.749 and how valuable that can 1083 00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:27.609 be toward creating 1084 00:33:27.610 --> 00:33:29.229 a more just society if we try to 1085 00:33:29.230 --> 00:33:31.269 understand each other in that way. 1086 00:33:31.270 --> 00:33:33.369 Certainly, in my work, 1087 00:33:33.370 --> 00:33:36.219 I have tried to emphasize 1088 00:33:36.220 --> 00:33:38.349 that virtue of sympathy 1089 00:33:38.350 --> 00:33:39.939 to try to understand where somebody 1090 00:33:39.940 --> 00:33:41.199 else is sitting. 1091 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:42.879 The book that I wrote about genre 1092 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:44.199 fiction-- about crime in detective 1093 00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:46.689 fiction emphasizes 1094 00:33:46.690 --> 00:33:48.819 the way that the writers 1095 00:33:48.820 --> 00:33:50.769 of crime in detective fiction are 1096 00:33:50.770 --> 00:33:52.659 deeply preoccupied 1097 00:33:52.660 --> 00:33:55.089 with the workings of sympathy 1098 00:33:55.090 --> 00:33:57.249 in society in the way that crime 1099 00:33:57.250 --> 00:33:59.079 as a transgression is 1100 00:33:59.080 --> 00:34:01.089 in many ways the 1101 00:34:01.090 --> 00:34:03.459 most explicit demonstration 1102 00:34:03.460 --> 00:34:05.769 you can get of a lack of sympathy. 1103 00:34:05.770 --> 00:34:08.468 So I think that humanists 1104 00:34:08.469 --> 00:34:10.959 are engaged or ought to be engaged 1105 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:13.718 in the work of sympathy 1106 00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:16.149 in the sense that there is a public 1107 00:34:16.150 --> 00:34:18.339 for the thinking that we do. 1108 00:34:18.340 --> 00:34:20.529 And we need to reach out 1109 00:34:20.530 --> 00:34:21.916 and to connect with that public or 1110 00:34:23.409 --> 00:34:24.279 many publics. 1111 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:25.280 There are publics in other 1112 00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.059 areas of the university, including, 1113 00:34:28.060 --> 00:34:29.919 for example, the sciences. 1114 00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:31.809 And there are publics outside of the 1115 00:34:31.810 --> 00:34:32.709 university. 1116 00:34:32.710 --> 00:34:34.689 And our job as humanists, 1117 00:34:34.690 --> 00:34:36.789 I think, ought to be to 1118 00:34:36.790 --> 00:34:39.339 make connections with those publics 1119 00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:41.229 so that we can not only share our 1120 00:34:41.230 --> 00:34:42.849 work, but so that we can-- but also 1121 00:34:42.850 --> 00:34:44.709 so that we can benefit from 1122 00:34:44.710 --> 00:34:46.779 the point of view of others. 1123 00:34:46.780 --> 00:34:48.369 And we can enrich our common 1124 00:34:48.370 --> 00:34:49.370 purpose. 1125 00:34:53.489 --> 00:34:54.839 That's it for the first installment 1126 00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:56.249 of the University of Pittsburgh 1127 00:34:56.250 --> 00:34:57.839 Humanities podcast. 1128 00:34:57.840 --> 00:34:59.459 Our guest was Leonard Cassuto, whose 1129 00:34:59.460 --> 00:35:00.899 latest book is The Graduate School 1130 00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:02.279 Mess, published by Harvard 1131 00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:03.779 University Press. 1132 00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:04.559 He would like to thank the 1133 00:35:04.560 --> 00:35:06.029 University of Pittsburgh Office of 1134 00:35:06.030 --> 00:35:07.499 the Provost for their support of the 1135 00:35:07.500 --> 00:35:08.699 Year of Humanities. 1136 00:35:08.700 --> 00:35:10.199 Our next podcast will feature 1137 00:35:10.200 --> 00:35:11.669 Moroccan author and filmmaker 1138 00:35:11.670 --> 00:35:13.109 Abdalleh Taїa. 1139 00:35:13.110 --> 00:35:14.279 For more information on the Year of 1140 00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:15.269 the Humanities and to see our 1141 00:35:15.270 --> 00:35:16.859 upcoming events, visit our website 1142 00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:17.860 at www.humanities.pitt.edu.
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