C., Lee, June 9, 1976, tape 1, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: This is an interview with Mr. Lee C. of 921 Cliff Street, North Braddock, Pennsylvania, recorded on June 9th, 1976, at-- home. [long pause] Uh, can you tell me a little bit about your parents, where they were born, what kind of work they did? Lee Lee C.: Well, my father. He's a preacher. Gottlieb: And your mother?

Lee C.: My mother-- just did housework.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Do you know where they were born?

Lee C.: Yeah. Was in Clarksville, Virginia. Both of them born Clarksville, Virginia. Gottlieb: Clarksville? Lee C.: Yeah. Virginia.

Gottlieb: What part of the state is that? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: What part of the state is that?

Lee C.: There-- in Virginia. That's Virginia. State of Virginia.

Gottlieb: [simultaneous talking] Is it northern or southern? Do you know? Lee C.: [simultaneous talking] Southern. Gottlieb: Southern part of Virginia. Is it-- Is it around Richmond? Is it around Richmond? Lee C.: Yeah.

Lee C.: That's out of Richmond.

Gottlieb: Uh, did your father make a living being a minister, or did he have to--

Lee C.: He would have to work if he could, to make that.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Can you tell me what kind of work he did?

Lee C.: He worked at the mill.

Gottlieb: What kind of mill?

Lee C.: ______[??] mill. I'd make fertilizer. He worked there.

Gottlieb: Was that a steady job all year round?

Lee C.: Yeah. That's a steady job. Yeah.

Gottlieb: He did that all his life?

Lee C.: Yeah, he did it his whole life, 'cause it was his job.

Gottlieb: How many brothers and sisters did you have? Lee C.: Well, I--

Lee C.: Had two brothers and three sisters.

Gottlieb: There were eight of you in all in the family. Are you the oldest or second oldest or--

Lee C.: No, there's one died that was older than I was.

Gottlieb: What-- Which. Which child are you? First, the second, the third. Do you remember?

Lee C.: I'm 'bout the-- I'm 'bout the seventh [??] child.

Gottlieb: When you were living at home with your parents, did anybody else live with you besides your brothers and sisters and your parents?

Lee C.: No. Was no room for 'em.

Gottlieb: Did-- Did you have relatives living around Clarksville? Your father's brothers or sisters or your mother's brothers or sisters?

Lee C.: You see, I didn't-- I didn't know about-- about them. But then when I come from there, I was about three years old. I couldn't remember nothing then. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. Lee C.: Yeah, I remember, 'cause it was my father's people.

Gottlieb: So you came up here when you were only three?

Lee C.: I came from south Virginia to Richmond. I was about three years old.

Gottlieb: I see. Your family moved there? Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Why did they move?

Lee C.: Well, my father, he got a job in Richmond. We didn't have no farm.

Gottlieb: Doing what? What kind of-- What kind of work did he get?

Lee C.: He worked at the mill, I told you. ________[??] Yeah.

Gottlieb: Had you been living on a farm in Clarksville?

Lee C.: No, didn't have no farm.

Gottlieb: And so you grew up in-- In Richmond. In the city. Lee C.: Mhm. Gottlieb: Uh, do you know anything about your grandparents, where they were from, what kind of work they did in their lives? Lee C.: No, I

Lee C.: Didn't know, I was too small for to know that.

Gottlieb: Did any of your relatives move up to Pennsylvania or any other place in the North besides you?

Lee C.: Well, my brother. My brother come up here before I did. Gottlieb: He did? Lee C.: Yeah. And I come up here after he come up here.

Gottlieb: He moved up to Pittsburgh area?

Lee C.: Yeah. In Pittsburgh area, in Braddock here.

Gottlieb: How much schooling were you able to get in Richmond?

Lee C.: I went to school 'fore _______[??] the government.

Gottlieb: Do you remember very much about the school? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: Do you remember very much about the school?

Lee C.: Yeah, I remember the school.

Gottlieb: Can you describe it to me a little bit? What it used to be like to go to school back at that period of time?

Lee C.: Well, at that time you could go to school if you want to or leave it alone. That time wasn't like it is now. See, when I first, when the children would come to school, to go to school, there wasn't a truant officer would come down and give us that, wasn't nothing like that. You go to school if you want. If you didn't leave alone.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Did the school used to be in session nine months of the year like it is now?

Lee C.: Yes.

Gottlieb: Do you remember your teachers at all?

Lee C.: Yeah, I remember the teachers. I had a math teacher named Mr. Williams. Oh, he wouldn't be older than 25 years.

Gottlieb: Do you remember the-- whether or not your parents had you do any chores around the house when you were just a young boy helping them out?

Lee C.: Yeah, you had clean up. Clean up and scrub and keep the yard and everything. And cutting wood. Yeah. Was no gas, nothing like that then. No, no coal. No gas. No electric. _______[??]

Gottlieb: What was the first job you had that you earned money at?

Lee C.: Drivin' grocery wagon.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me a little bit about how you got the job and what kind of work you had?

Lee C.: Color folk around, clear the soaps [??]. I just haul what to get what people want to go through, get wood and coal and stuff like, carry that to them.

Gottlieb: How long did you have that job?

Lee C.: Oh. Probably about three or four years, and then I left there and went to a poker run [??]. I wasn't getting but $3 a week. The color fellow. I worked for a white fellow. Pick bottles.

Gottlieb: How old were you when you first started working at this job?

Lee C.: Probably 14 years old.

Gottlieb: Was this just after you had stopped going to school? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: Did you get this job just after you quit school? Lee C.: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Yeah. Gottlieb: Do you remember whether your parents wanted you to continue in school at that time?

Lee C.: Now I'm just tellin' you, way it was, didn't compel you. The people wouldn't make you go to school. You know, if you say you didn't want to go, you wouldn't go. Gottlieb: Yeah. Lee C.: You know, whole lot different than it is now. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did your parents need the money that you would be earning? Lee C.: Oh, yeah. Gottlieb: So you would be turning it over to them?

Lee C.: Turn it over to them. Get about two dollars a week, I give 'em a full no [??]. I just made two dollars _____[??].

Gottlieb: Did they let you have any of it? They give any back to you?

Lee C.: I didn't need none of it. Gottlieb: You didn't? Lee C.: No, 'cause I wasn't in school or nothing. They give me candy and everything like I want, that's all I.

Gottlieb: What was the next job you had after you were-- after you were hauling groceries for this white man?

Lee C.: I got a job at the Richmond Cedar Works, was paying a dollar a day there.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me what kind of product you were making, what kind of job you had to do? Lee C.: I was working in sawmill. Sawing logs.

Gottlieb: What-- What kind-- How is the work actually done at that time? I'm sure it's a lot different from a sawmill today.

Lee C.: So all of this-- all of this was the hand work.

Gottlieb: Could you describe what you had to do there?

Lee C.: Yeah, I just had to-- I had to pick up, you know, just like. Like when they cut out, cut the ends of the logs and things off like that. I take it off and put it in the truck.

Gottlieb: You just throw those pieces onto the truck? Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: How-- was that-- That paid a whole lot more than hauling groceries.

Lee C.: Yeah, I was given a dollar a day, there. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Was there anybody there who helped you get that job? Helped you find it? Lee C.: No.

Lee C.: See, you go-- go-- go work at offer [??] there. And if you needed about they hire you. They hire you. Wasn't-- whole lot different than it is now.

Gottlieb: Do you remember about how old you were when you started working there?

Lee C.: I was 16.

Gottlieb: Were you still living with your parents at that time? Lee C.: I was. Gottlieb: How long did you keep that job?

Lee C.: Oh, was a big job _______[??] Probably about-- six months. You know, just like you didn't like a job then, then you could go somewhere else, you know? I got a job in the factory and I get $7.80 a week then. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Lee C.: $7.80 a week.

Gottlieb: What kind of factory?

Lee C.: make cigars.

Gottlieb: And what-- What kind of work did they make you do there?

Lee C.: I fill machines. See they had bunches, put bunches in the block, you see. And I fillin' machines. So I had the truck fillin' the machine with it, and the white one would roll the cigars.

Gottlieb: How long did you keep that job? Lee C.: Oh.

Lee C.: Maybe about six months. I just go around to one. I didn't care that much about working, nohow. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Lee C.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: You still staying at home.

Gottlieb: Well, you can tell what I'm interested in. Could you tell me all the other jobs you had in Richmond before you came up to, uh, Braddock?

Lee C.: Yeah, I had job _______[??]. Workin', I was workin' on the sea mill [??]. I was gettin' $6.80 a day there. That's money. Yeah. That's during the war time. 1917. Again. I with my brother and my brother, he run the clean and presser shop. He won the clean and presser shop from 1909 to 1923.

Gottlieb: Well, I didn't quite understand what kind of shop you said he had?

Lee C.: Cleanin' and pressin'. Gottlieb: Cleanin' and pressin'. Lee C.: See, at that time, you get a pair of pants cleaned for $0.50. The whole suit clean for a dollar. I was a cleaner through that time. See, now we got dirty, we scrub 'em. Clean, fresh, put 'em on the board and scrub 'em. It'd be clean, that one time get all the dirt off. Gottlieb: Mhm. Lee C.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: And after that? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: And after that, you know?

Lee C.: Oh after they put the railroad up I come up here. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. Lee C.: Now have to do too much clothes [??]. Wartime, you know, they're busy then, they're hire extra men's, you know, for breaking.

Gottlieb: Now, you said you started working on a railroad about 1916 or 17.

Lee C.: Yeah, 1916.

Gottlieb: And you must have come up here in 1923.

Lee C.: Yeah, was about 23, yeah.

Gottlieb: Were you working on the railroad between 1916 and 1923? The whole time? Lee C.: No, I wasn't. I don't know.

Lee C.: You know, after the war was over, they let all the extra men go. See I was just working that time, had no steady job on that. Just extra.

Gottlieb: Is it at that time that you went to work with your brother? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: Is it at that time you went and worked with your brother? Lee C.: Mhm. Gottlieb: And you stayed with him until-- Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: --til you came out?

Gottlieb: Was this the brother that came up ahead of you? Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: It was. Tell me a little bit about how he decided to-- to leave his business in Richmond and come up to Braddock.

Lee C.: Well, it just like I said, for more money. So he come up here and he got a job in the mill. Edgar Thomas Mill. Okay. And then after he come up here, I come up here after him and he run a boarding house. Gottlieb: He did? Lee C.: Yeah, he run a boardinghouse down on Washington Street.

Gottlieb: Is that in Braddock? Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Um, did he have-- Did he sell his business in Richmond?

Lee C.: Yeah, he sold. You know, at that time, you could buy a business for $25 because it wasn't do nothing but use an iron, was no press machine. Nothing like that, you know. He didn't have no pressin' machine, nothing like that.

Gottlieb: Did he have his own shop or did he just use his house?

Lee C.: No, he had own shop.

Gottlieb: Well, had somebody told him about Braddock and the Edgar Thompson plant? Lee C.: Yeah.

Lee C.: Knew some fellers up here, you know, come up here, you know, And he come on up here and then he come up here and he played ball all the time, you know, in Richmond. And a lot of fellows knowed him, you know, and he come up here and he start playing ball up here.

Gottlieb: Do you remember who these people who told him about Braddock were? Lee C.: No, I don't know. I don't know. Gottlieb: He just-- He just heard about it from some friends of his. Lee C.: Yeah.

Lee C.: And then come on up here.

Gottlieb: Had you ever heard about Braddock or Pittsburgh before that time? Anybody talked to you about it?

Lee C.: Oh, yeah. You see, now, I would. I would have been up here before then, but I thought, you know, Braddock was a long way from Homestead, or Duquesne. You see, I thought they way away from one another because I come, I come up, on transportation. Gottlieb: You did? Lee C.: Come on. Yeah. I could have got transportation and come to Homestead. Or Duquesne, can caught the car and come over here. But I just knew-- I thought it was a long way from there, I was waiting till they say we're going to come to Braddock.

Gottlieb: And so you did wait until it came?

Lee C.: Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Otherwise, you think you might have come up before your brother did? Lee C.: No.

Lee C.: No. Wasn't nothing like that before he come up here [??].

Gottlieb: So it sounds to me then, like if your brother hadn't come up here, you probably wouldn't have come up here. Lee C.: Definitely.

Lee C.: Yeah, he workin', I wouldn't know.

Gottlieb: Why not? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: Were you not the adventurous type? Weren't you the adventurous type of person who would have come up on your own?

Lee C.: No. You see, just like, you see, I didn't know nobody. Just like you. You wouldn't want to go nowhere that you didn't know nobody yourself. See? And he is up here. I know. I'd be all right when I get here. Gottlieb: Yeah. Lee C.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Was he married at that time?

Lee C.: No, he never married.

Gottlieb: Were you? Lee C.: I'm married. Yeah, I'm married. Gottlieb: Were you married when you came up here? Was your wife in Virginia?

Lee C.: Yeah, my wife was in Virginia. Gottlieb: Oh, I see.

Gottlieb: Tell me a little bit about how a man would get transportation.

Lee C.: See at the employment office in Richmond on Broad Street, and you go up there and they'll sign you up and tell you, you know, what it-- what requirement is, you see. And tell you when Pittsburgh train goin' leave. Say, three a day and all you had to be up there and it's cost you nothing. You get something to eat and all.

Gottlieb: All you had to do a show up at the train at the right time.

Lee C.: That's right. Man had a list of your name.

Gottlieb: Do you remember who the man was? Who took your name? Did you ever know his name? Lee C.: No.

Lee C.: I never know his name.

Gottlieb: How many men went with you?

Lee C.: Probably about-- probably about 50.

Gottlieb: Were they all sitting in one car together? Did they have a special car there?

Lee C.: They did have special car. You called, how many you know was going. You did need up here. You see that they would have-- if you had more than one car to put an extra car on.

Gottlieb: Excuse me a second.

Gottlieb: Do you remember the trip up here from Richmond very well in the train?

Lee C.: I remember. You ever come up here. We left that night. Gottlieb: At night? Lee C.: [unintelligible]--- Up around 8:00.

Gottlieb: Did you stop over anywhere or did they bring you right on straight through?

Lee C.: It's conflicted. They had to put your car in, you know. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Lee C.: We all __________[??]

Gottlieb: You didn't have to change trains anywhere.

Lee C.: No. Gottlieb: Yeah. Did it-- Lee C.: Well, think we changed half-- if we changed in Washington, you understand? Gottlieb: Yeah. Lee C.: We changed trains in Washington. And the trains afterwards go all the way.

Gottlieb: Did you come right into Braddock? Did-- Did the train come right into Braddock, or did you have to get off in Pittsburgh and take a street--

Lee C.: [simultaneous talking] Oh, we got off in Braddock. You got off in Braddock where you can go, was about half a block from where the guard is taking. Look side taking [??] and walk around 'course down to the employment office.

Gottlieb: And then-- and tell me what happened after they let you off the train, exactly. They took you right over to the employment office?

Lee C.: No, they wouldn't go-- they didn't sign us up for the next morning. We carried us to the place where you stay at, the bunkhouse, called the bunkhouse, you know, we stay there and eat and all.

Gottlieb: It was one place where everybody stayed.

Lee C.: Yeah, it was a big bunkhouse. A great big place.

Gottlieb: Were there other men staying there besides you or you--

Lee C.: Oh, yeah, some of them stayed. Some of them didn't have work, I stayed there til the next day. Til my brother found out I was there. And he come down and got me. Brought me up to his boardinghouse.

Gottlieb: You hadn't told them that you were coming?

Lee C.: Yeah. He knew what I was coming, but he didn't know what-- What time I'd be here. Gottlieb: Oh, I see.

Gottlieb: And then what happened the the next morning?

Lee C.: The next morning they carried us up there and they examined us. If you pass examination, they give a job. Get a job. They signed you up and pay you when they come, come and work.

Gottlieb: Who decided what part of the mill you were going to work in? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: Who-- Who-- Who decided what part of the mill you were going to work in?

Lee C.: I didn't know what department. We decide that yourself. You know, they like, you have so many men this, you know, so many men this. This-- this mill, maybe Number 2 mill, Number Three mill or coke house, blast furnace.

Gottlieb: What part of the mill did you get assigned to? Lee C.: Finishing department. Gottlieb: Finishing?

Lee C.: Yeah. They want my brother to go with me.

Gottlieb: Hm. Was that just a coincidence, or did they put you together because you were brothers?

Lee C.: No, he didn't work on the same shift I worked on. Gottlieb: Oh. Lee C.: He worked on another shift.

Gottlieb: But you were in the same part of the mill.

Lee C.: The same part. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Uh, what kind of work were you doing in a finishing department?

Lee C.: Oh, turn the radios.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me how you did that?

Lee C.: Yeah. See the wheel, take the wheel come out on. You seem to be hot and had-- had-- had to make-- made something like a fork and you turn it over.

Gottlieb: What was the purpose of doing that?

Lee C.: Well, people often-- people crooked. If it didn't turn them over, go over just like that.

Gottlieb: And you used to do that your entire shift.

Lee C.: Okay.

Gottlieb: So was the company pretty much finished with you after you got assigned to your department? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: Did the company do anything else with you after they assigned you to your department? Lee C.: No. Gottlieb: They they took out from your pay the cost of the transportation, didn't they?

Lee C.: No, if you work, if you worked-- you know, I forget how many days or 30 days or something like that. They pay for you, they pay for your transportation. Gottlieb: They-- they would? Lee C.: But if you didn't work, they take it out.

Gottlieb: Mm. How often did you used to get paid? Do you remember? Lee C.: Every two weeks. Gottlieb: So if you worked, let's say less than two weeks, you would they keep, they keep the cost of your transportation back. Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: But let's say if you work longer than four weeks or something. Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: They wouldn't take it out of your pay. Lee C.: Mm. Gottlieb: What about if you were staying in that bunkhouse, would they charge you for that? Lee C.: Oh, yeah.

Lee C.: You would pay for people eating in the bunker. But I just feel like I got there and like a day in the mall, I found my brother. He come down and got me. Of course, the fellow, you know, was hated upon because he knew my brother.

Gottlieb: Um. Did you stay at that same job in the finishing department? All the years that you worked at Edgar Thompson?

Lee C.: Yeah. Well, see, I did. Well, see, I did. I like Number Three Mill went down and I went to the pig iron. They made pig iron. They called it pig Iron Machine. I worked over there. And then afterward I come back over to number two, finish them for me. And I worked there the rest of the time because I come over painting, I come over painting in 57.

Gottlieb: In '57. About 34 years?

Lee C.: I made foreman.

Gottlieb: What was the best of all those jobs you had? What was the best job in the mill?

Lee C.: The best job was the finishing department.

Gottlieb: The first one you had? The first one you had?

Lee C.: No, the second one. See, I work at number three, finished mill. And then as we went down, I went to the pig machine and then I come back to the number two, finish the mill. And I worked at the-- the rest of the time.

Gottlieb: Was the work you had to do there different than the turning the rails?

Lee C.: That's what I did. Turn the rail.

Gottlieb: Did you do that number in-- in number two?

Lee C.: Yeah, I done that.

Gottlieb: Well, why was that better-- Better than number three?

Lee C.: Well, was better. Well, cause it was more easier.

Gottlieb: Have. Have they mechanized the job by that time? Lee C.: Yeah.

Lee C.: Now that the number two mill and the chain roller coming up, lay down go to sleep.

Gottlieb: You hadn't been able to do that in the number three department? Lee C.: No.

Lee C.: I would eat everything [??].

Gottlieb: What was working with the-- with the pig iron machine like?

Lee C.: Yeah, that's tough. Hot. But hot like runnin' iron you see. Just like water. You shall see one? Like water in now. And sometimes you hit a spout. The iron run in before the run in-- in the ladle. And you keep that-- keep that spout open so the irons when they had wooden poles.

Gottlieb: Do you remember about what year the number three mill went down and you got transferred?

Lee C.: No. So you see, we-- we did get like the mill go down or something or other and you have your purpose. What job you want to take, you know, if they want them in there, you don't, don't, don't just, say, transfer you there. Gottlieb: Yeah. Lee C.: Just place you there.

Gottlieb: Was it a long, long time after you came up here? That number three mill went down or was it just a few years? Lee C.: Oh, long time. I was there long time. Gottlieb: So you had that job of turning rails for many years? Uh huh. Did it satisfy you, that kind of work?

Lee C.: Oh, liked it. You must think I tell you, I take my hand down. I won't get more tired when I come home. I ain't done nothing. That's the truth.

Gottlieb: Huh. Didn't it take a lot of strength to turn those rails?

Lee C.: If you didn't know how to do it.

Gottlieb: What was the-- What was the knack of doing it right?

Lee C.: Well, you've got to have a place. See, we had. We had like that 55. I ain't tellin you, I stand up just like you said, and put them up just like holding four more. And some of them turn them that way down. And sometimes wheel keep all the wheel over. Yeah, I was the best one turn them rails.

Gottlieb: So. So the secret was to put as little motion into it as you could?

Lee C.: That's right, that's right. Like, you know, like everything. Because some jobs, you see, some people do you, they want to hire you to do that. Just. You just sit down. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Did-- did somebody show you how when you first started working how to do it right?

Lee C.: He told me how, guy told me how, showed me how to do it. And then afterwards, I did better than he did. That's right.

Gottlieb: Were these all Black men who were working at that part of the mill? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: Were these all Black men who were working at that part of the mill? Lee C.: No.

Lee C.: No, see the fellas, white fellas, foreman on the ____[??] On the road was, we're going put them on there and put them in the cars and we-- the one-- one-- the one-- the one fellow, he was a Spanish. He was working with us.

Gottlieb: But-- but they were the only ones that weren't Black. Lee C.: Mhm. Gottlieb: So they were mostly--

Lee C.: My-- on my turns. On my turns. There's three turns. So you had three turners on each each turn. And to many degrees, the hotbed.

Gottlieb: Which turn was it that you worked on? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: Which turn was it?

Lee C.: Oh, I worked on all of them. Gottlieb: You did? Lee C.: Yeah. We turned around. We moved it. One more. Famously [??], he left and came.

Gottlieb: Who was the man who taught you how to turn the rails?

Lee C.: Another colored fellow. I don't know. I don't know his name. I do that better than he did.

Gottlieb: Huh. You never became friends with him? Lee C.: Hm? Gottlieb: You never became good friends with him? Lee C.: Oh, yeah. Good friends. Gottlieb: Was he staying at the-- At your brother's boarding house? Lee C.: No.

Lee C.: Don't know where he stay.

Gottlieb: Did you have to work at that-- in the pig iron department very long, or was that just a short time?

Lee C.: Just a short time.

Gottlieb: And then they-- And then you asked to get the other job? Lee C.: Yeah, right. Gottlieb: How was it different working in the number two department from from working in number three department? You told me that it had become mechanized.

Lee C.: Yeah. Well, I didn't. I just tell you we had better-- do better, right? We had more spare energy then.

Gottlieb: They had a machine that would turn the rails over.

Lee C.: I don't know what you had. We had the ring.

Gottlieb: But didn't you tell me that in the in the number two mill that they had by that time mechanized that job partly?

Lee C.: What do you mean by mechanized?

Gottlieb: I mean, they had a machine that would do part of the work that the men used to do when you were working in number three department.

Lee C.: Yeah. You see them little reels just like this, there were 25. You had to run them through a machine. You had to take them out.

Gottlieb: And you hadn't had that number three mill.

Lee C.: No. No, they had that number two mill. No. See, the men straightened them by hand.

Gottlieb: Were you-- why I asked-- You, you were always happy with the jobs that you had at Edgar Thompson.

Lee C.: Oh, yeah.

Gottlieb: You figure you were doing better up here than you could have done in Richmond?

Lee C.: Yeah, I come up here on account there was more money. That's reason. That's better. Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Was that the only thing that kept you up here? If you had been able to earn as much money in Richmond as you could, as you could have earned at Edgar Thompson, would you have gone back?

Lee C.: Yeah, I would. I would never come up here. No, I would never come up here. You go back, continue on working on the railroad. I was-- I would have stayed with that because I make more on the railroad there than I did when I come up here.

Gottlieb: You were making more on the railroad than you were at Edgar Thompson?

Lee C.: Yeah. I was making $6.80 for 8 hours.

Gottlieb: How much were you making at Edgar Thompson when you first came up?

Lee C.: When I first come up, $3.06. Gottlieb: A day. Lee C.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: That's a big difference. Lee C.: Yeah.

Lee C.: Yeah, I stayed _____[??] that.

Gottlieb: How did the-- how did the foremen and the pushers used to treat Black men at Edgar Thompson?

Lee C.: We treat all the same. We treat all the same.

Gottlieb: You didn't know. You didn't-- didn't notice any difference?

Lee C.: No, of course like here. Like you did, like that. He couldn't talk to you just like a dog or something, cause you jump on him. So the superintendent didn't like that. You got to treat them all the same. You know, we're talking about corn, you platinum, you know, nigger ______ nigger [??]. Guys eat him up, I tell ya.

Gottlieb: Did you ever see it happen?

Lee C.: No, never happened. I thought they didn't have it. Like, if you do that and you tell the superintendent, the superintendent let you out and I would discharge you for that. So then. That way.

Gottlieb: Were there certain parts of the mill that only Black men worked in and other parts of the mill that maybe only Spanish men worked in or something like that?

Lee C.: No. All-- all older. Some colored. Had some colored working in there. Yeah. You know, like the old coloreds. They had the-- first help or something help 'em. They got all those white. But the colored man here to help. Yeah, up there. He got to get up. What happen.

Gottlieb: What was the best job in your department?

Lee C.: I tell you, I just tell you, the finishing job. I mean, the roll department. Was the best place I ever worked in there.

Gottlieb: But what in that department, what was the best job a person could get?

Lee C.: A better job, but still wasn't-- so colored folk couldn't get there.

Gottlieb: The-- the-- The colored people usually had less skilled work?

Lee C.: That's right. Just like pulling the wheels up and all I get, you know. And the superintendent put me in the car. He had worked in them but now, you take it now, the colored doing same thing, they're doing same thing all the bills, because colored foreman and all.

Gottlieb: Were there any colored foreman when you were working there? Lee C.: No. Gottlieb: They were all white? Were there any foreign born foremen? Were they all native American men? Lee C.: Victor [??]. Gottlieb: They had both kinds.

Lee C.: We're not doing in there now and working in this work years ago. Workin' a job now. If you pay to do it. I'm colored man, I tell you I can do it. I get it.

Gottlieb: But it wasn't like that then.

Lee C.: No, never. Nothing or no one.

Gottlieb: Was there ever a job you wanted to get that you couldn't on account of being colored?

Lee C.: Yeah. When I first come up here. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did you ever have an experience with that yourself, though? Was there ever a job that you tried to get yourself and they didn't let you have it because you were colored? Lee C.: No.

Lee C.: No. All of them spent, was a job. I tell a lot of them work that's been through, but they couldn't get it.

Gottlieb: Did you ever want to leave the mill and try and find any other kind of work? Lee C.: No.

Lee C.: No. I was satisfied right there, what I was doing. I work there 23 years and six months on the same job.

Gottlieb: How old were you when you when you came up in 1923?

Lee C.: 26. I was 26, I think. Gottlieb: Uh huh.

Gottlieb: What happened to you in the, uh, Depression? Did you get-- Did you get laid off?

Lee C.: No. I'd make one and two days a week. One and two days a week.

Gottlieb: How did you used to know which days to go down to the mill to work?

Lee C.: Oh, just like-- just like-- I'd report 12 to 8 this week. I mean seven day. I mean eight to 2 to 12 or something like that. And I know, I know my schedule when I go out when my time for to go see that's like I was off this week next week maybe I go to 12 day I know when I was supposed to go. Gottlieb: Uh huh, yeah but--

Gottlieb: But if you were only working a couple of days every pay, how did you know which day you were supposed to work?

Lee C.: You see, like, when you're working like that, we go to different places in the-- In the mill. And they maybe didn't need a man. See, they send us over there not us job weren't going on toll.

Gottlieb: So every day you had to go down and see was there any work.

Lee C.: Yeah-- yeah you know that if I want to work, if I didn't want to work, I wasn't going.

Gottlieb: Did you ever try to find a job outside the mill during those years? Lee C.: No.

Lee C.: No 'cause I could make it.

Gottlieb: Um. What did you use to do on the days when you didn't work?

Lee C.: Oh, just sit around, play cards with them, I guess. Was ball game.

Gottlieb: Guess there are a lot of other men in your situation. Was there one part of Braddock, when you first came up here in 1923, Was there one part of Braddock that the colored people lived in, or were they pretty mixed up with the--?

Lee C.: They're pretty mixed up. There's something. You know, there's something like maybe 3 or 4 blocks was nothing but white living in there. See the colored didn't live in there. He'd live in other places.

Gottlieb: How long did you stay at your brother's boarding house? Lee C.: I like it to be ten years. Gottlieb: And you said you were married at the time you came up here in 1923. Did your wife come up with you? Did you bring your wife up? Lee C.: Mhm. Gottlieb: And you the two of you stayed together with your brother?

Lee C.: Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: How many other men were staying there?

Lee C.: I wouldn't know, about. 15. 15. Gottlieb: God. Lee C.: Eleven rooms, one house.

Gottlieb: 11 rooms? How did-- how did he get such a big house? Did he-- was he pretty wealthy? Your brother?

Lee C.: No, see, rent, wasn't so high then. He rent.

Gottlieb: He rented that house?

Lee C.: $75 a month. Every month.

Gottlieb: Was he able to make a lot of money by taking in boarders?

Lee C.: Yeah, he made pretty good.

Gottlieb: Well, the thing I'm thinking about is that in 1923, uh, it must have been an awful lot of, it must have been a lot of people coming up here from the South.

Lee C.: Oh, good. Things was booming that time.

Gottlieb: And it must have been a real shortage of housing for places for all those people. And it's-- I just-- it's surprising for me to think that your brother could have just come right up here and and rented that house just like that without any trouble.

Gottlieb: Do you know how he-- How he was able to find it?

Lee C.: Yeah. The fella what owned the building. He run the bar on the corner. See and my brother know him, see.

Gottlieb: Did he know him in Virginia?

Lee C.: No, he knew him after he could come up here, you know. You know, just like-- Like you-- Like you-- Like I know you and you know me. You could recommend it to. 'Cause I was alright. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: How long had your brother been up here before you came? Do you know?

Lee C.: Maybe five years.

Gottlieb: Oh, he he. He came up here more like 1918, 1917? Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Was this friend of his who had the bar? Was he a colored man, too? Lee C.: No. Gottlieb: Did your brother keep his job at Edgar Thomson the whole time that he lived in Braddock? Lee C.: Yeah.

Lee C.: You see, way that time. We were working like that, you know. We had a baseball team 'fore he could come. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Lee C.: And then every day. He'd get off and go play ball. He had been throwing at a ball. Gottlieb: Yeah. Yeah. Lee C.: People don't do that now. Won't let you do that not.

Gottlieb: This was like regular baseball, it wasn't softball?

Lee C.: Yeah, regular baseball.

Gottlieb: Baseball. Who-- Who did they used to play?

Lee C.: They play Homestead. Duquesne. Pitt good. Chatham and all around that place.

Gottlieb: Were these teams just for colored men or?

Lee C.: All colored.

Gottlieb: All colored? Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Was there somebody who the mill had hired to organize this baseball team into--

Lee C.: Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Do you remember what his name was?

Lee C.: No. I'm going to go over here and. I can't go over there. I think all-- I can call [??].

Gottlieb: Did you know him very well? Did you know this man?

Lee C.: Yeah. He had a job in the mill. He worked-- He worked in the big office. Everything.

Gottlieb: Did he have any other kind of job besides that? This man?

Lee C.: Yeah, he had. He had a great little office in there.

Gottlieb: But what were his responsibilities? Do you know? I mean, what was he supposed to do exactly?

Lee C.: I think he-- I think he for the-- for the colored folks. Like you want jobs in there there? You went and see him. I can't call his name. I see him one day.

Gottlieb: I think I've heard it mentioned before, but I can't remember it myself now.

Gottlieb: I know that there was a person who had a similar position in Homestead, and his name was Grover Nelson.

Lee C.: No, this fella, I can't call his name now to save my life. Couldn't think of it. Been so long.

Gottlieb: And did you ever have any need to talk to him about anything? Lee C.: No. Gottlieb: Do you know of people who he did help out and what he did for them?

Lee C.: You know, at that time, if they-- if you tend to your own business and do your job and you have no trouble, you don't have no trouble.

Gottlieb: Would this-- would this man be the kind of person who would-- who you would go to if you did have trouble with a foreman?

Lee C.: No. He could give me a name. Someone that you go to see. I can't call him. I really don't know.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me the places that you have lived since you left your brother's boarding house?

Lee C.: I ain't everybody-- I never moved Braddock. Gottlieb: Pardon me? Lee C.: I never moved Braddock. I've been living in there all that time. I ain't been over in Braddock?

Gottlieb: What are the different addresses, though, that you lived at in Braddock?

Lee C.: I lived, I think, I live over 3 or 4 places. Gottlieb: Oh yeah? Lee C.: I think it was over 28, 80, lived 28 Willow Way. I can't think of anything __________[??] The one place I lived.

Gottlieb: How many children did you have? Lee C.: Four. Gottlieb: Four children. Were all. Were they all born up in here in Pennsylvania?

Lee C.: All 'cept one.

Gottlieb: So you had one child when-- When you moved up here? How long was it between the time that you came up to Braddock and the time that you that your wife came up?

Lee C.: Well, she came up with me. Would be about a year later.

Gottlieb: Did you go down and visit them during the time you were here? And they were in Richmond? Once-- Once you were living up here with your family. Did you use to go back to Virginia at all?

Lee C.: No, I didn't go back.

Gottlieb: And did your relatives used to come up here to see you? Lee C.: Yeah.

Lee C.: He and my mother, my mother and my brother just-- that's all I had.

Gottlieb: Oh, your father. Your father passed by that time.

Lee C.: Yeah, he dead. '58. [??]

Gottlieb: He died about the time that you left Richmond to come up here? Lee C.: Well, he

Lee C.: died. He died when I had come up here. You know, I tell you, work at the mill and I tell you, was preacher, you asked me, could you make a living doing that? You know, he work at the mill. Go down _______[??].

Gottlieb: When you-- when you came up here, did you ever notice any difference between colored people who had come up from the South and colored people who had been born in Pennsylvania and raised in Pennsylvania?

Lee C.: No, I don't see no difference. All were the same.

Gottlieb: So of all your brothers and sisters, this brother who owned the boarding house and you were the only one who who came up to Pennsylvania. Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: The rest--

Lee C.: Of my family? Yeah.

Gottlieb: The rest of them stayed in Virginia? Lee C.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Did they-- Did they all stay in Richmond or did they live in different places? What did you think of Braddock?

Lee C.: I think it's all right. Yeah. You know, like, if you go a place and you try to treat other people right, be bound to treat. You don't treat it right, why bother, I never been arrested in my life.

Gottlieb: How did it compare as a city? I mean, as a place to live with Richmond? Was it better or worse? Lee C.: Going up here? Gottlieb: Yeah.

Lee C.: Oh, like. Like. Like you know how to treat everybody the same people up here. People just way to be down there. Nobody can say nothing in the world about me. 'Cause I try treat everybody right. White and colored.

Gottlieb: Well, you know, they used to talk about, you know, how rough mill towns were. You know, how dirty. How polluted. Did that did ever bother you? Lee C.: No.

Lee C.: No. People talkin' bout pollution now. When I first come up here, sure, your street would have dirt 'bout quarter inch thick on it. You better not park your car on by it, by the mill, it'd be covered up and get rained on. Yeah. You know, mine. And some of them. Some of them white fellas workin there. Coal smoke and thing, I guess. And they come out. They'd be covered up in all that dust. We just wash up. Yeah. He just wash up when he was at home. He'd be so glad, you know, the time for him to go home. It is hell.