B., John, March 10, 1976, tape 2, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: Staying with the family or was it a big rooming house?

John B.: That one was a rooming house. Group of families running it, you know. Group of tables. It would've been a and [unintelligible].

Gottlieb: Was that a Black family? John B.: Mhm. Gottlieb: What did you think of Homestead when you first got up here?

John B.: Well I tell you, I-- somehow or other I was anticipating a better future. But the Homestead was-- it was long-- It was much different what it is now because much gambling and caba-- what you call them. Caba, caba-- Cabarets. That's what you call them going on and gambling places. And the women. Oh. Quite a week. And Homestead was called one of the wide awake places in Western Homestead, in Western Pennsylvania. And so it was very much alive and-- I'd been a church boy. I grew up in church and Christian home. I didn't care too much about that part of it. But I still-- I wanted to make that money. I wanted to do that.

Gottlieb: You know, what kind of-- what kind of job did they give you in the mill when you began to work?

John B.: When I first came they give me a job that nobody hardly wanted, nobody would. One of the toughest jobs was known in the field. I was a little stouter than I am now, and I was considered kind of strong. And the job they gave me, we call it scrap carrying. You had to handle the hot steel that the chairs would scrap. The chairs would cut off of the rear plate and you had to handle it in your arm and put it up

John B.: In another smaller chair, which we call scrap chair. And you go back-- Go back to the open hearth and so forth. And he must, oh, you must. And you carry in the arm. But it's hot. Sometimes it's blaze up. But you had some gloves. Great big, heavy gloves and leather on the inside of it so you wouldn't get burned so much with that stuff. And but I did get burned and I got burned. And so some people were-- some of the boys would put on that job would walk off after so long, he couldn't stand it. And we said, it's kind of dangerous, too. And so when I was, the seven man job and so I didn't know where I was going, what I was doing. So they put me on that job and I stuck there. I said it was like I came to be the boss of that job. That is the head of the seven men. And I worked there, 14 years there.

Gottlieb: You did?

John B.: Some jobs are like that. I finally quit. It was too hard for me.

Gottlieb: How much were they paying you then at that time?

John B.: $4. Uh, $.60. And then I became the foreman. I did $4.90. That's how I got on that job. But the man that put 60.

Gottlieb: A day? John B.: Mhm. Gottlieb: This was. This would be in a rolling mill. John B.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gottlieb: Were all the other men that you were-- that were in your gang, were they all Black?

John B.: Yeah, well, we had. We in fact, when I first went there, we had a Slavic fella was the boss of the job, and he work-- I work, the other men work and quit. But I stayed. And after he got old and everything, wasn't like it is now. Union wasn't, you know, operating. But anyhow, he had this-- he had quit the job. And so I stepped up into his place. So he was the only one. Only White man on the job.

Gottlieb: And after you became foreman, all the other people you were over were Black.

John B.: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But sometime it might be that sometimes someone would lay off and you had to take them. Get a man from the labor gang. And sometime he'd be White, but he'd come up there to work maybe a day or something like that, but didn't belong on that particular job.

Gottlieb: Now, you said you had to go into the Army after a while. How long were you in Homestead for that first period of time before you got called?

John B.: As a matter of a month, I came in 17, left in 17. Gottlieb: Do you remember the-- John B.: But I didn't go in the Army then. I didn't go down until 18. But I left, I think I mentioned that I went to North Carolina and I got a job and worked until they called me to go in, after I went there they didn't take me.

Gottlieb: But the only reason you went back to North Carolina is because you thought you were going to have to go into the Army.

John B.: No, I got the notice to come back. Gottlieb: Yeah. John B.: You see, I had-- when I registered, I had registered from North Carolina, which I was lived in Richmond, Virginia. But I had the idea that I'd be with my boys or somebody I knew. And I didn't understand what I didn't know what I was doing. But anyhow, that way I reckon. So they called me, but when they called me, they had, they had enough men. I mean after I got there, nobody had to go till the next time. And I worked while I waited.

Gottlieb: Did you intend when you left Homestead to come back when you were-- you had gotten out of the Army? Did you have any plans about what you were going to do when you got finished with the Army?

John B.: Yes, I thought I'd come back. If-- that is if I live, you know, I don't know. I expect you gonna die, you know, I was gonna die. Never know. I'll never be back anyway. I'll never live to get through. But I considered it. This would be my job. If I had understood, I wouldn't even. I couldn't even. You see, I had to be rehired. And I come back because I quit. I did what we call jack up. If I didn't have to do it, my time would have gone on. But I didn't understand. I was a young man, and so I quit. That's the way it was. Well enough. I quit. I got to be rehired. Gottlieb: Yeah. John B.: So I came back, and I. I don't know how long. Let me see. Oh, I came back in May, I think it was. I went down in January. And then stay all that time home. May.

Gottlieb: You came back in May 1918? John B.: Mhm. Gottlieb: Did you speak to anybody before you left and tell them-- somebody in the mill, I mean-- and tell them I'd like to come back? John B.: No, no, no.

John B.: I wouldn't have. If I had, anybody would advise me to not, you know, jack up, we call it that, that they had. But I didn't. I, you know, I felt like this is it. So I just pay did-- hold back two weeks pay on. Gottlieb: Yeah. John B.: Well when I jacked up they give you that two weeks pay and so that left me free, you know.

Gottlieb: And if you had left that two weeks pay there, no matter how long you had been gone, if you came back, they-- they would have-- they you wouldn't have had to rehire. They would have taken you back on.

John B.: Well, I couldn't answer that exactly, but I'm pretty sure they would have. But I don't know. I never had that experience. You know what I mean? But I'm pretty sure they would have because my money would be there. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did you get a job in North Carolina between the time you went back and the time you went into the Army?

John B.: Yeah, that's when I worked for Kevin. I don't know what I mentioned the other night. I worked there for a while, not very long, of course, but I was a while there.

Gottlieb: What kind of job?

John B.: Well, working there. Uh, he was building that I said before the war, they fixin up the fort when I was there. Had carpenters and whatnot. And I was what you call a laborer around there helping the cobblers and so forth, building that fort.

Gottlieb: Were you living at home with your parents? John B.: Oh, yeah, I lived at home.

Gottlieb: What kind of position did you have in the Army when you were taken in finally?

John B.: Yeah, I, uh. I never, never made. I acted mostly, that's what. When you're acting. You are not it. You know what I mean? And so I left. I was private. Then I went to corporal, and I left corporal, I was acting sergeant. But I never was a sergeant. But I acted. That is, if it hadn't been that-- Labor Department have been and we had-- didn't have many Blacks, you know. And so I had that job acting. I'd carry a gun maybe whenever I post a sentence. That is what-- you know, on the job or the police around the camp and so forth. I carry a gun then, but otherwise I wasn't even allowed to have a gun, you see. And they would-- That's why I got in there. I didn't-- I never a sergeant, but I acted.

Gottlieb: Were you stationed at that same camp where you had been working? John B.: Yeah.

John B.: No, no, that wasn't the camp where I was working. I was working on the fort. I mean, yeah, but the food, you know, that's way they ship food was coming in, but the camp was where the soldiers trained and so forth. That was inland. The fort was on the water. And so. That's how I got in the fort. I never made it.

Gottlieb: And you got-- you got out of the Army in 1918.

John B.: 1918. Yeah. You know, I have discharge in here somewhere. Yeah. 1918. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Well, the war wasn't over until later on in 1918. In November. But you got-- You got mustered out before that? Before the war was over. John B.: No. Now you caught me.

John B.: Mine was 1919. Gottlieb: Okay. John B.: Because 19 when the war ended, we paraded. I was in the service. We paraded down the street on that 11th day of November, wasn't it? I think that's right. Anyhow, we paraded and so I said 1918, I came home. It had to be 1919. I in there because I came out in March, I think it was. But anyhow, I said I had it wrong. Wrong year.

Gottlieb: You were you living at home the whole time you were in the Army? Or did you stay in the barracks when you were in the Army?

John B.: Oh, I was in the barracks. Yeah, in the. At the camp. Yeah. Yeah. You couldn't live at home. You. And then the 200 mile, I get, 200 mile between to my home and.

Gottlieb: What did you do when they-- When they, uh, discharged you finally? Did you come right straight back to Homestead or did you?

John B.: No, I did not, but. Yeah, though. I think I. My second I-- discharged, they hired in May when I came back to Homestead. In May.

Gottlieb: Did you have any job in between the time you got discharged and the time you came back here? John B.: No. Got a job after that.

John B.: I don't know. I think I mentioned before my mother had to help me get to Richmond to catch another chance to come back here. Gottlieb: Oh, yeah. John B.: Yeah. Yeah. My mother had to give me some money and her watch. I think I mentioned that to you.

Gottlieb: Yes, that's true. But that was the first time you came. John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Is that right?

John B.: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. You got. You got it straighter than I have. Yeah, that's right.

Gottlieb: But when you came back to Homestead in 1919, did you come on transportation again?

John B.: Not-- I didn't go to Homestead. No, in fact, I didn't. I went to another town. Then I left there and came to Homestead. Don't remember which town I was in. They have works up there now. I mean, steel works up there now.

John B.: Yeah, up there. I can't call her name right now. Gottlieb: You came? John B.: No, no, not. Up the river. Up there. I'm up there. Almost there. While.

Gottlieb: Aliquippa. John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: You were up there? John B.: Yeah, that's it. Gottlieb:Oh. Did you come back on your own to this-- to Wstern Pennsylvania? I mean, did you take your-- Did you pay your own way up here?

John B.: Not from-- Not from-- Uh, I did from Aliquippa. Yeah. Yeah, but not to Aliquippa. I came over, that's [unintelligible] to Aliquippa.

Gottlieb: Did that leave from Richmond as well? John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: You didn't work very long at Aliquippa?

John B.: No, no, I didn't like it because first job was digging up-- up the streets up there. It was a pit. I figured I could do better than that.

Gottlieb: It wasn't a steel mill job.

John B.: It's a steel mill job. All right. But I wasn't in the mill. I was in. Gottlieb: Working out in the yard. John B.: That's. Yeah, that's what that. Yeah. Aliquippa, I came to Aliquippa. Actually, that was Aliquippa.

John B.: But-- Pardon me. It wasn't called Aliquippa then? No, the name was-- Something else. But that's the name of the place now. Anyhow, that's all right.

Gottlieb: There used to be an amusement park up there. That's what was originally there before they built the mill. But I can't remember what the name of the amusement park was.

John B.: Try to think of the original name. I can't think. Aliquippa.

Gottlieb: So you came back down to Homestead? John B.: Yeah. You see, when I went to Aliquippa.

John B.: They took my luggage and everything. And, uh, lock it up. They told me, you have to work so long. Gottlieb: Oh, really? John B.: And I left there and left my luggage and everything and came to Homestead on-- on the car. On the car, even, something like that. Working, I-- had never come home. And I worked at Homestead without my luggage and my clothes.

John B.: And after I got the money, I went back there and paid what I owed them and got my letter to come back to Homestead.

Gottlieb: Did transportation to Aliquippa work the same way that a transportation to Homestead did? Did they give you a meal when you got to Aliquippa and register you there and show you to a boarding house and all that?

John B.: Yes. Yes.

Gottlieb: Had they taken your luggage at Homestead when you had first come up in 1917?

John B.: [simultaneous talking] No, never, never did. No, it is not the way we did that.

Gottlieb: How were you able to get your old job back?

John B.: You mean my old job.

Gottlieb: At Homestead, your job that you would have before you went back to North Carolina, you told me you were working around the scrap chute. John B.: Yeah, I. Yeah.

John B.: Well, I didn't go back on the old job right away. Finally I went on that job, scrap job when I didn't know any better. But the next job-- Now let me see. I'm 50 there somewhere. I don't know where. Now let's get it straight. Some years, you know, 60 years ago or so.

Gottlieb: And I'm asking you lots of detailed kind of questions.

John B.: I can't get it together.

Gottlieb: Did you go to the employment office in order to get a job when you came back to Homestead from Aliquippa?

John B.: Oh, yes, I had to go there to get hired.

Gottlieb: How did they know you down there from the time you had worked before?

John B.: No, until I give my name. And then you said back at me. That's where I've learned that I should have never jacked up. They told me there and then. Why would I leave? You know? But when I went back to get the job, I didn't know what I was doing. Young fella, you know you want to get his money and get away. Gottlieb: Yeah. John B.: And so I was laying down and I just balled up, came down here. Blew it. I could have even gone to the Army from Pennsylvania and got a bonus. You know that pension. But North Carolina didn't pay. I blew everything there.

Gottlieb: Did you go back to live at the same place you had been living before in Homestead when you came back from Aliquippa?

John B.: No, no. I just-- no.

Gottlieb: Was this the time you were living up on-- John B.: [simultaneous talking] Sixth Avenue. Gottlieb: Were you staying with friends with time or--

John B.: Well, I didn't even know them. But, I mean, I hadn't. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: You found your own place to stay. Then you just went out to a place?

John B.: Yeah, because I come in on my own and see it. That time. Second time because they wasn't responsible for me, you know?

Gottlieb: Did you stay at Homestead now after you came back in 1919? Did you-- or did you ever go anyplace else?

John B.: No, I never-- I lived right in Homestead. I got married here in 27 [??], [unintelligible].

Gottlieb: Were you going back to North Carolina from 1919 on to visit?

John B.: Oh, yes. I've been back there. My father-- my mother died, I was there. My father died, I was there. I was there when my mother had to undergo an operation.

Gottlieb: Did you used to go back regularly, like for holidays, like Christmas?

John B.: No, not now. And I don't think I don't think I've ever been on a trip. But I didn't go. I wasn't like year, every year. I didn't.

Gottlieb: Was it common for men to do that? As far as you know, was it common for men to go back?

John B.: Yes. Yes. And some men were, you know, had the-- the future wives were living there. They had to go back and come back, got married. Some friends of the wives and so forth. It wasn't their wives then what I mean, friends of the girlfriend and married and so forth. I didn't have any future wife there. And so I never had to go back. You know that. My mother and father was there. And ___[??]

Gottlieb: Do you know why you decided to make Homestead your your new home? You had been in a lot of different places.

John B.: Yeah. Well, I know-- I kind of got stuck here, I think, somehow. After I get to work in the church and my friend, made quite a few friends around and somehow when I knew I thought about it, I just stuck it on God and. I never accumulated any property. I had property. My father and myself, I had my father paid for property in North Carolina, but I never accumulated any. Never owned a home here in Pennsylvania in my life until I got to us. And I got through school on my own. I didn't-- I didn't care about it at all. And I never owned a home, not in Pennsylvania, but I could be president if I own the money. I wanted money now, but at the time when I should have bought one. I wasn't able I couldn't-- that is, I didn't think I could move. I wanted to have my money so I could do what I wanted to do with it.

Gottlieb: Where did you-- where did you make your friends in Homestead? Did they come from the-- From the mill mainly, or from other places?

John B.: Well, around the community. Some was in the mill and some was working other places. Some was even working in Pittsburgh, around Duquesne and another city. My church-- The church I belong to now, same church I belong to 57 years. They had members from all around. You might say McKeesport, Duquesne, Braddock, Homewood down here, they was all around. And so kindly give me a kind of broad scope around, [unintelligible].

Gottlieb: Was there a group of men that you got to know on the job that you used to do things together with? Or after work, did you pretty much spend time by yourself? No, I didn't.

John B.: We had a little, I guess all men, every man have a little, you know, inner circle. Usage with grew around with and I had a few friends. One of them came to be my brother-in-law. And I know.

Gottlieb: Were these people that you work with on the job? John B.: [unintelligible] Gottlieb: In the mill? Were they members of a gang around the year?

John B.: Yeah, only right in the same department that I worked in. I think there's only about 1 or 2. There's a couple of them that were really associated with. We call them buddies, you know. So a couple of them.

Gottlieb: Do you remember any of the foremen at the mill when you were working there? John B.: Yeah. In the department.

John B.: Yeah. Washington [??]. [unintelligible] Mike Vyusik [ph]. He's a mayor of West Homestead and he's also my foreman. [unintelligible] But Mike Vyusik was my last foreman. When I retired, he was foreman there. Like Jefferson ten [??]. He's dead now.

Gottlieb: How did they treat the men-- the Black men from the South that come up here?

John B.: Well, they-- I think that I couldn't see very much difference. You see. I don't know. We've always started with the underdog, of course. And we got the job that-- You didn't get the top job. You didn't get what we should have gotten. We didn't get even what we can get now. I might put it that way. But later, since the union has come in, perhaps you gon get justice now. But better than it was then. They did have-- things have been better than our chances were in the South. But not too much better.

Gottlieb: Were you pretty satisfied with the way that you were treated by foremen?

John B.: Yes, only one. I didn't-- he didn't care much for me. [unintelligible]

John B.: Anyhow. This particular foreman, he didn't care much for me. The job [unintelligible] He-- After the White man had quit the job, I had another fellow from North Carolina. He was workin' on the job.

John B.: But I was always on the job. I doin' this man on the job and said this man, foreman, used up more this other boy than you or me. So he put this boy on the job.

John B.: He did it. The foreman. And I know he did it. And I-- [unintelligible]

John B.: The boss also put in there [??].

John B.: Well, I'll go to the boss. Well, you know, I kind of. I woke up then, you know what I mean? I had to wait a long time. 15 years without foreman. Not too dumb on the job then. So I decided just to, to go. I left, go to the office, talk to the superintendent. And he came over to me. Said, come on. Said, he's afraid, I don't know whether the superintendent told him to do so or not, but it would be laid on somebody. You know what I mean? Somebody was wrong, even if superintendent was. And so, uh, uh, I went down there. I got time. He didn't like it. But the other one that said.

John B.: The one I met before. He said-- I like him. He's the mayor down here in Homestead now. I like him, he gotta-- he gotta-- like that working under him in the mill and then living, and he the mayor. So we got along ____[??] now.

Gottlieb: Um. Do you feel that the company treated Blacks pretty well?

John B.: No, I, I couldn't-- I don't think-- No, I couldn't. No, you get to the ___[??] and sit down. Twice in my life, another time this happen. Similar to the one that you just went over. I was doing a job when I quit that job. I was chippin' low, workin' what they call a chippin' job. And the chipper, the man that was loading, the load man, was next to, he's trying to go around. And lift and up to the crane and the crane and putting the car in-- that job telling me. You see that job for me? And so this foreman there, he put another man there, too, that wasn't used, he had moved up to him to continue. So but anyhow. Put him, that foreman put another man there. Put him over there. And so some boy told me about it. I didn't know it about it. And I went out there to find out about that, too. So. You going to do it? So I left and went to go to the office. The office was outside of the mill.

John B.: Outside of the mill. You worker man had to walk across a lot to get to the ___[??]. So I left and went over there. And I had to go to ___________[??] [unintelligible] Up on top of the

John B.: That was way at the bottom of the steps 'cause the superintendent come down until he gets ready to [unintelligible] And while I--