B., John, March 10, 1976, tape 1, side 2

Peter Gottlieb: Wilmington was the closest city to you all the while you were growing up. John B.: Yeah. Yeah. Gottlieb: Was it a large market? A lot of other people there selling their things? John B.: Oh yeah, yeah. People would come, some people would leave Friday night and make their way to be their to get a stand on the market.

John B.: You have a certain part of the street. For the country people to-- you know, for stand, lot of stand. First come, first serve, that's all. Some people would leave home Friday night to get there first, spend the night there.

Gottlieb: Did you ever go in with any other families or was it just your family by itself? John B.: How'd you mean? Gottlieb: Did you ever go as a group to Wilmington or was it just your family and your-- your own wagon going into town? John B.: Oh, we go as a group sometime. But you-- you would want for your-- your wares and your-- you do other men but you'd be together maybe-- maybe one year, even. Fact I'd go on the street now. So. Same thing.

Gottlieb: Did you used to make these regular weekly trips during the winter too, or was it just during the summer? John B.: Mostly summer because there's so many, you know, so much merchandise that is summer, regular summer. Like you might see corn, peas. You ain't peas in-- you wouldn't have them in the winter, you know. And then again if you had any dried ones you could keep 'em. But in the summer, the green ones, you have to get rid of them. You know what I mean? You put them on the market. Gottlieb: Then it was a different kind of work that you'd have to be doing in the wintertime? John B.: Yeah, well, sometime, some people

John B.: Work for some factory maybe, a while, and then a certain time of year go back to the farm to prepare the ground, you know, for the soil and the seeds and so forth.

Gottlieb: Do you ever do that? John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Can you tell me about some of the jobs you had in factories? Yeah, I worked in the fertilizer factory. I worked for a little while in sawmill. But I said, certain time I had to quit that and go back. Gottlieb: How old were you when you started to take these other jobs? John B.: Oh, I was fourteen, I guess. Fourteen. It would be-- Yeah. I worked with another family, Black family, from-- yeah, it was 14, 15. During that time, I was for a whole year. The whole summer too, and winter. A little over a year. I stayed right with them. Because they had a-- we called them rich because they had a great big plantation, big home. Them boys went to school. Had a ____[??] in the home. Board up the cottage [??]. They were quite, they were ___[??]. He died, and I had to leave there. They'd already told me, I was a man, I would-- I was about 15 years old then, a little boy. After that I started with the _____[??], I learned _____[??].

Gottlieb: You were doing farm work there, on this place. John B.: Yeah. Did they have the same kind of farm that father had? John B.: Yeah, but you know, larger. Labor. You labor there. Oh, he had-- oh, he must have had, what, four, five mules, horse. My father only had one at the time. Gottlieb: Did many of the other boys your age that you knew go to factories, different places to work during the winter? John B.: Yes. Quite of my homeboys around then.

John B.: Some-- some of them never had-- worked on a farm.

John B.: They always had some other jobs, you know, some work in the city. Broke the board, we call them. Laundry, work in laundry. Driving trucks, they wouldn't have trucks then, we would have wagons that did. Horse and wagons that do it. So they work, get a job. They weren't farm, didn't work on farm. Fact, they didn't like the farm. You know, work so hard.

Gottlieb: When you went away to work at the fertilizer factory and the sawmill, did you have to move away from your family's home or could you live at home and work at these other places? John B.: Yeah. I lived at home. I rode a bicycle to the factory. And so-- I, factory I could come home. Gottlieb: What were you using the money for, that you were earning at these places like the fertilizer factory? John B.: At that time, I wasn't using it for anything, I only use what my father give. Of the money. That would be probably a dollar, something like that. You know, we would buy ice cream. My father had fourteen, fifteen kids, buy my clothes. I was-- [unintelligible] When I was younger, nothing else to do,

John B.: Summertime, I wouldn't want to keep it on. Gottlieb: So you were turning the money over to your parents? John B.: No, I wasn't turn it over to him. I just expected, see. [laughs] Say, you the one turnin' it over to him, talkin' like I was livin', he was takin'-- that's all of his. That was his money.

John B. He can give me that. I remember the first time that he said to me, he said, after I got to be grown and get my own money. He said to me, said this is yours. Now you take it. Now you give me what you want me to have. I remember [unintelligible]. Gottlieb: Oh, is that right? John B.: Yeah. Got a man. Told the man. [??] First time. Didn't say a word. Gottlieb: Is that right? John B.: That's right.

John B.: That's right. I remember. Very.

Gottlieb: Do you remember how old you were at the time?

John B.: Well, I must've been about-- I think I must have been 18 and 19.

John B.: I wasn't 21. You see, you turn 21, but I wasn't-- I know I wasn't 21. But you think my oldest brother was _____[??] for 21, before they got for it. So I guess the time is changing, you know, like it is now.

Gottlieb: So did your other brothers also do this? Go off and work in different places during the winter time?

John B.: Yes, they did. They worked in different places. My other brothers did. Fact, a couple of them left home 'tween the winters. Some left home for them there.

John B.: They went off into the city. Gottlieb: Why did you leave and decide to go to Virginia? John B.: Well, I left home first. Went to another city in North Carolina. And while I was there, I met some folks there who were tell me about this part of the country.

John B.: In Virginia and in Pennsylvania and so on. They talked quite a bit about it. And I decided that I'd take off. And so I got the chance to leave, called, and my mother give me-- I think it was worth a couple of dollars. To help pay my way to Virginia from North Carolina, of her own money. And her watch.

John B.: Give me her watch. I went to Richmond, Virginia. And I left Richmond, Virginia on transportation. To come here. That was 1917.

Gottlieb: What was the other city in North Carolina that you went to? John B.: Badin [??]. They called it Baden. and my sister was living there at the time. I went there and they had a little fctory up there and I worked in the little factory up there. Gottlieb: Why-- why did you decide to go there? John B.: Well, I, wanted to get away from the farm. Make more money. Was gettin' more money. I'd grown up then see. Gottlieb: How did your parents feel about you leaving? Did they mind you going? John B.: At that time, my father. You see my father getting kind of old. He wasn't working so hard then, I think. You know. So I'm sure he didn't want me to leave. My mother fell aside and as I told you she helped me get away. Give me a couple of dollars, a couple of dollars and her watch. [laughs]

Gottlieb: Was your father doing a little bit better at that time?

John B.: Yes, because he had some ox to put on the market. And he had a little, not a farm, but he had a little, I call it a garden farm, little.

Gottlieb: What kind of work were you doing in this first place in North Carolina you moved to? John B.: Uh, working to, it seems similar to the open hearth we had. But uh, making, meltin' stuff. You know, steel and stuff. It wasn't metal. I was workin'-- They call that open house where I workin' at. But not them big. Big, like. Gottlieb: How long did you stay there? John B.: Oh, I can't recall how long I stayed. Maybe a year, something like that. Gottlieb: Did you move there because your sister was living there? John B.: Well, I think that influence it too. I had a chance.

John B.: Some fellas was leaving home, going to that same town anyhow. Working in that place. And my sister was up there. And her husband workin' there, so I think that had something to do with my going there. Gottlieb: Did they help you get that job there? John B.: Oh, yeah. Well, they didn't had to help me. I live with them, but all I had to do, I go there and get in line and something. And so they was hiring them like everything.

Gottlieb: Well, since you had a job here and you even had relatives living in that town, what made you decide to go to Richmond from there?

John B.: Well I went to Richmond because of that chance to come here.

Gottlieb: Oh, that's the only reason you went to Richmond?

John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Oh. John B.: But I work there a while at the same because I stay there-- you see the transportation only out there so often. Go anytime. And that's when I got a job. I work for a man work locomotive, and so, uh. I work for a while [unintelligible].

Gottlieb: So you were living in North Carolina when you first heard about transportation. John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Is that right? John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Did somebody come up to Pittsburgh telling you about it? John B.: Yeah. Someone had been through, yeah. Somebody knew body, I didn't know how. And talking, telling me about the advantages and so forth, I wanted that.

Gottlieb: What kind of advantages were they telling you about? John B.: Oh, you can get more money, you know, company pay more. More money than anything. Cause I-- I getting $2 at that time. $2. And I could get $3 or $4. More money. Gottlieb: Were you, uh-- John B.: It was three dollars and a half, I remember, that's what I got. $3.50. Gottlieb: Up here. John B.: Mhm. Gottlieb: Were you helping out your parents any? John B.: Oh, yeah, I always help them. Yeah, when they need more, I send them money. I had a banker call them when they died. I had them-- pay for money, yeah. Gottlieb: Did you ever-- John B.: I've been married for two years and my father died. And still had to bring money.

Gottlieb: Were you-- did you go back to see your parents after you came up here to Pennsylvania? John B.: Oh, yes. Several times. When you said go back-- Gottlieb: I meant, between the time you left your, the farm, and went to this other place in North Carolina, and then came up to Pittsburgh, did you-- between that time, your parents-- John B.: Oh yes, yes, yes. Two or three times.

Gottlieb: Let me ask you this one other question. Did you first go to live with your sister and her husband in this other city of North Carolina during the wintertime-- was it after the crops had been brought in?

John B.: Yes. It's in fall of the year, not. It wasn't winter. But harvest time, afterwards, you know. October. Something like that.

Gottlieb: When I went back and listened to the tape earlier, I heard that you mentioned that you had gone to this place in North Carolina where your sister was living. Did you call it Badin?

Gottlieb: With a group of other men from around your home. John B.: That's right. Gottlieb: Did you know-- were these friends of yours or just a group of people who were going up there to work and you went along with them?

John B.: Fact it wasn't any of my immediate friends, but just a matter of a kind of a transportation. Taking the fellows to that working center up there. And I joined them. That's all I heard about it and joined the group trying to get a better job.

Gottlieb: How were you-- How did you hear about this? Was there an employment office in Wilmington or something that had organized this?

John B.: Well, there's no organized movement. But to the general, you know, it would pass around or generally roam around it. There would be choosin' men out of that country and well, around Wilmington. You see, that was my home town, but I wasn't living in Wilmington. I live in outside. And the news got around that there would be choosing men and taking them to this particular place. And so I went and joined them. That's all. I found out the day I met them.

Gottlieb: And you didn't know any of these people before you went up there?

John B.: I don't think-- I can't remember now. I don't think I knew any of them, no. But I knew my sister and her husband were there already. They were living there. But I don't think the men that went along with me, I don't think I remember any of their names. Not-- Some years ago now, 60 years or more.

Gottlieb: You said you wanted to, uh, to leave the farm. Did you not like farm work? Did it not suit you?

John B.: Well, fact is about all I knew at the time. But I always felt like I could get. I could get a better job and make more money somewhere than I was getting on the farm. You know, folks look kind of down on a man that was working on the farm. Of course, a farmer that had, you know, had his own farm or something like that. He kind of-- that's all right, too. But if I'd happened to be working for that man, I wouldn't consider it. You know much.

Gottlieb: Did you ever have any ambition to own your own farm?

John B.: Well, I don't think. Not seriously. No. In fact, when I left, I wasn't old enough to be serious enough about it. You know what I mean? I don't think I'd be.

Gottlieb: Did you ever think about going back to farming? Once you had left your father's place?

John B.: No. Well, my father, as I said before, my father didn't have a, you know, a great you know, when you use the word farm sometime, you might have the idea that it had plantation or something. My father only had a small place, you know, and he had-- he raised and he really didn't have the place that he had had before. Earlier, this place was smaller still, you know what I'm saying? So he's raising hogs mostly and put the hogs on the market. And they have what we'd call a garden, raise the little things we'd put up and so forth. And so, you know, I never intended to do that. I didn't want-- I wanted to get away from that.

Gottlieb: This group of men that went to Badin with you, did they also go up to Richmond when you went up there, or did you go by yourself?

John B.: Fact-- No, we didn't leave from we did not leave from Badin and go to Richmond. I didn't-- I was back home and then I left home and went to Richmond. But I didn't work. I wasn't home long enough to even get a job. But I did. But still, I left from home and went to Richmond.

Gottlieb: Did-- had the job at Badin ended?

John B.: Oh, no. The kind of plant that, it makes different stuff which carried had open hearth there. Same was in the mills and so forth. Okay. It might be going on now so far as I know.

Gottlieb: Had you quit that job or had you just gone back home for some--

John B.: [simultaneous talking] Yeah, I quit the job. I did. I quit the job.

Gottlieb: Did somebody tell you about the transportation from Richmond? John B.: Oh, yes. Gottlieb: Somebody in Wilmington?

John B.: Yes, I left-- I left home and went to Richmond. I had no idea coming to Pennsylvania. Except then I went there to Richmond. I thought I wanted to get to Richmond, because I had-- I had-- I had friends in Richmond. In fact, the boys grew up with me in Richmond. Some even married couples, which I got a room with. And I worked at American Locomotive Works there in Richmond. And it was there that I heard about this in Richmond. And then I change my mind and I quit. The, I'd've been 17.

Gottlieb: Did your friends in Richmond help you get that job at American Locomotive? Were they working there, too?

John B.: No, he wasn't working there. But I don't think-- you know, he wasn't any help either. They hiring, had a, you know, employment place there. And I just went there seeking a job and I was hired.

Gottlieb: No one told you to go down there or anything like that. You just went on there on your own.

John B.: Well, I just heard that, you know, the big working making different machinery and I knew where it was at. And so I just work there seeking a job, that's all. And you got the job.

Gottlieb: What kind of job did they give you there when they hired you on?

John B.: Yeah, I had a job. You see this just before the United States entered into war, showing up and they were making war equipment. That is the shells. I had a job caulking. I wasn't caulking, but I helpin' to caulk them. You'd roll them around and then the caulk would take that gun and, you know, go around caulk. We call it caulking it. And-- and I'd have to move some and move some over, roll them, these big shell booms. But I told them that anyhow, that was my job. I was working on that job and I came here getting $2.40 a day.

Gottlieb: And you were rooming with some friends of yours? John B.: Yes. Yeah. Gottlieb: How did you find out about transportation? John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Yeah.

John B.: Well, transportation leavin' Richmond every so often.

Gottlieb: Did somebody tell you about it, though? John B.: Oh, yes.

John B.: Guys knew about it. Even before I decided to come away, I knew about the transportation coming in there. The man named Mr. Nelson at that time, he was the-- it wasn't called Canadian or not Canadian. No, United States Canadian. Anyhow, they send this man every so often down South to get the men and bring them to the work and. Come out or sit in. So I knew about it. And I met him one time and I passed that little examination.

Gottlieb: So can you tell me about your meeting with Nelson, where you met him and what the circumstances were?

John B.: Yeah, well, I met him in entering and went through a little preliminary. I call it examination there. But you see, he'd have to know certain things about you. And before he could even accept you to come, before you come in, to be examined, you enough, you know, to bring payment it, if I was blind in one eye so I wouldn't pass him, so he wouldn't do something like that. But anyhow, I paid in. And that's when I got in and when I got here I had to go through a period of examination and then I had to ___[??].

Gottlieb: Do you remember what kind of things he asked you?

John B.: Yes. Where I was born. That, my age. My mother's parents. The way I wanted my body, which I didn't like that [laughs] you should have him.

Gottlieb: Did he ask you anything about your work experience? John B.: Working experience? Gottlieb: Yeah.

John B.: Yeah. Well, yes. He knew the-- after I done on farm. As I said, I had only one job before that. I had-- Well, I left that job in North Carolina and went home. But I'd worked on a farm and worked in a little fertilizer factory and work. And that job there in Badin, they're the only three jobs I ever had experience in my life at that time. The farm in that little. Having been in a fertilizer factory for a little while. I worked at a sawmill, but as a matter of a few weeks-- a week.

Gottlieb: Where did this examination take place? John B.: You mean here? Gottlieb: No, with Nelson in Richmond?

John B.: Yes. I don't know. I think it was up on Church Hill. Up on Church Hill. I've got the name of the street in Church Hill. I know that's the part of the town. Church Hill. But I can't recall now the name of the street up there. I know. I live on that 17th Street. And I can't-- I can't think-- Church Hill, Church Hill. That was in that part of town that we call it.

Gottlieb: Was it a unemployment office? Was it a church or what kind of building was it? Were these?

John B.: It was a little-- I think it was an office. He had there kind of a temporary office. If you go when you use when he come in together, his men. We meet there and leave there for the train, you know, and they just go and get on the train and take it.

Gottlieb: Um, was that the Black section of town? Church Hill? John B.: What? Gottlieb: Was that in the Black section of town? Church Hill?

John B.: Well, I think you would consider it, yes. I think there's more Black people there than say, there. But I didn't live on Church Hill.

Gottlieb: Did a whole bunch of men from the plant you were working at come up to Homestead same time you did? Or were you--

John B.: Well, I don't think not too many. But some fellas joined me in Richmond, joined from my home, right around my home. But they were in Richmond. As I said, I lived with one boy from the couple from my home. I roomed with him there. And so he had a brother and he left there. And two, three others that I knew left Richmond.

Gottlieb: How long have you worked in Richmond before the, uh, before the transportation brought you up here?

John B.: Oh, it was less than a year. Yeah. I don't-- let me see. I left there and. 5th of June, 1917. I think the rest of the-- rest of the restoration, I think we call it, was and I left the next day after the restoration, left there and come here. The next day after I read and I read it today, I read it in order to have myself sent from North Carolina into the service. And so when I come here and work a while, then I was called to North Carolina, not Virginia, called to North Carolina. So I had to leave here into the service. I didn't come back. I think I mentioned that before. Gottlieb: Yeah, I did.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me something about the trip from Richmond up to Homestead, where you gathered when you left Richmond and where the train stopped and how many men were involved?

John B.: I couldn't tell that. I know quite a few men were there, but the number and they stopped and we stopped. I think they can. Alexander Pittenger [??]. I think they were something. You had lunch, had service there for the-- they be prepared for us to get off the train and eat like so many cattle out there and eat. The center would be ready for us if we had to eat. Then take the train. And then when we got here to Homestead, you couldn't get in even though you caught a train from Homestead, from Pittsburgh to Homestead. And then we had lunch over there. And that Greek restaurant everybody crowded in there.

Gottlieb: A Greek restaurant. You didn't eat in the mill?

John B.: No, not then, no.

Gottlieb: What did they do with you when they-- when you got off the train here after you had eaten at the restaurant?

John B.: Well, we had that examination carried through the routine and then they signed up to at that time, they had people that were accepting these into their home and borders, you know, in the mill would-- would pay the-- pay your bill to these wherever you were living. They were registered with the mill. And so they take us around and give us, you know, to our different homes if you happen to know anybody that we wanted to and if they were registered with the mill, why we could even go there, you know, and our choice. But if we didn't, they take you, didn't get it.

Gottlieb: But they gave you a meal, they gave you this examination and then they told you where you were supposed to be staying?

John B.: Yeah. They took us around and--

John B.: Yeah, man to go around. We wouldn't know any other where to go. See. Take us around, on to the address and tell us a good, time you did.

Gottlieb: Did they tell you what part of the plant you were going to be working in?

John B.: Well, not then. But we did find out later on they would take us down at this big hall and then some men from the-- from a division would come up there. We-- then we would have to follow that man to whatever division we were working in.

Gottlieb: Was that-- was that the very next day after you had come in?

John B.: Yeah, yeah. Next day. The next day. That's right.

Gottlieb: What place did you get assigned to, uh, what place to stay at?

John B.: I did. Uh, at that, at that time. I stayed at 220 Second Avenue at that time. But I left there, went up to Sixth. Sixth Avenue. 222 Sixth Avenue.

Gottlieb: Did you know anybody in Homestead at that time when you came here? On transportation?

John B.: At first? No, I didn't know anybody. I didn't know anybody at all.

Gottlieb: Did you stay with the other people that you knew from Wilmington who had also come up on transportation?

John B.: No. Let me see. No, I don't think anybody lived with the same people that I lived with. But there were some folks I know, one boy, one minister's son who was with me, and he got killed overnight in the street. He wasn't living with me.

John B.: I don't think anybody lives in that same family that I lived with. From my home. Several of us were there, but no one from my home.

Gottlieb: Were you staying with a family or was this a big rooming house?

John B.: Well, I thought it was a rooming house for families running it, you know. There were tables in the dining for us.