B., John, March 10, 1976, tape 1, side 1

John B.: I did. On my mother's side because I knew only my grandmother. I knew her. Remember, my grandfather. And on my father's side, only knew my mother and grandmother. But I did have my step-- I have my step grandfather. But on my mother's side I had no step grandfather. Just grandmother. And so-- that, my mother and father, they both-- [unintelligible] right where they're coming out.

John B.: And step womans were. My mother. God called her. ______[??] couple of year. I grew up on a farm. And I left the farm. And I stayed up here, then I was up here. Then I came [unintelligible], West Virginia, North Carolina. Then I left the Chamberlain [??] 1917 and came here.

Peter Gottlieb: Do you know where your grandparents were born? John B.: My grandmother was born in North Carolina.

John B.: And then-- of course, both my grandmothers was born in North Carolina. And then where my grandfather on my mother's side was born, I don't know--

John B.: Yes, and my grandfather, that is, my step grandfather, on my father's side, he was born in North Carolina. But I can't say that for my mother's father. He died when I was born. Gottlieb: Were they-- were they all, the ones who were born in North Carolina, were they all born in the same county, the same-- John B.: No. My father was born in Somerset County [??]. My mother was born in-- that over part. One of them ____[??]. Gottlieb: And so your parents were born in those counties as well. Um, were there any other members of your parents' families, that they grew up in, that you knew well? Like an uncle or an aunt?

John B.: Oh yes, I-- uncle I had, my father's youngest brother, he was close friend. I call him, he's older than I. He quite-- He _____[??] with my, church work I was doin'. And so, he quite a buddy. Not so much so with any others.

Gottlieb: Did your, uh, mother's and father's brothers and sisters all live around the same area there where you lived? Or had they scattered out? John B.: Well, they scattered out quite a bit. And then for quite of my young life they laid around here. But some of them, you know, after they got older and got married and my brothers and sisters. There were-- I am the seventh son. I had five sisters and I'm the only one living. I have one sister living. Family did, they did better, some of they look after. I had one that died, ____[??] in France. Couple them died in North Carolina. Gottlieb: So your parents had seven children in all? John B.: No. No. Seven boys. I'm the seventh son. Gottlieb: Five-- so there were five girls. John B.: Five girls. One of them, for, younger than I am. Gottlieb: Uh, what kind of work did your father do? John B.: Well, my father. He really was a share farmer. You know, young in the early part of my life. And I imagine he had kids, of course. But he finally. That he would buy them a little place. Do you understand what I mean? He became a farmer in his own right, you know.

Gottlieb: What kind of cash crops was he growing?

John B.: He grow corn. Peanuts. Peanuts are more stable. Corn. Sweet potato. Watermelon, canteloupe. Gottlieb: Did he grow any tobacco? John B.: Not that much in that part of North Carolina. Tobacco was mostly in the West. You didn't have it in the North Carolina. But not only-- nobody, but lived in Virginia. Gottlieb: So he was a farmer all his life. John B.: Yeah. No, my father used to be a Merchant Marine, used to work, you know, Black man wasn't in the Marine, Merchant Marine, work. You know what I mean? And after surrender, quit that job. That's before he married. And so he had to go between this and the country half a million time. You know, he wasn't nineteen [??] in there, but he was right in there that he travels so much. My mother couldn't read or write, but my father, he could read a little bit because the master-- His master's daughter and children taught him how to in slavery, how to read a little bit. And then, as I said, traveling like that, he naturally pick up something himself. And so, you know, in England around, you know. Gottlieb: Was the area where your father farmed the same area where his master had lived? John B.: No, no. No, he-- wasn't in the same county either. Supposed to be-- [unintelligible]. But he was in ______[??] County he had his farm. So what-- he worked in the Merchant Marine when he was a young man. John B.: Yes. Gottlieb: And did he begin to farm after he got married? John B.: Yes. I don't know how long, you know, but after-- you see the first-- when he began work on his own on the farm, I was born then.

John B.: You know what I mean? That was way up. But he's going to work on the farm before then of course. And then he said he working on the sharecroppin. He said that he was the renter croppin, maybe some white man that had his own property leased to him for so much of the crop. He makes some of these. And then at harvest time, we got to give so much of the crop for the land, understand? They call it sharecroppin'. Gottlieb: Yeah. Do you remember if he would have to give a little bit of everything that he grew to the to the landowner? John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Or just maybe, just part of the corn and the peanuts? John B.: He had to give everything that-- that is-- that he'd have probably some little thing that maybe even five above [??]. But the man still got, like, peanuts, so forth. Yeah, he had to give that. Yeah. Gottlieb: Do you remember when he got a farm of his own? John B.: No, I can't remember that. I remember-- You know, since I been to a farm, you know, it don't have. You don't want to-- I don't want you to think that you had a great big nine acres [??] or something. 20 acres is all, you know. My father was living anyhow. But it wasn't a great big farm.

Gottlieb: Do you remember about how many acres? John B.: No, I wouldn't know that. Gottlieb: Did you buy this farm from the man he had been renting from? John B.: No. No. Let me think now-- He had so many things. Let's see, he had rentin' from this man too. I'm not too sure-- I couldn't tell you like that because I'm afraid I couldn't get it true [??]. Gottlieb: So do you remember your family moving around from one farm to the other-- John B.: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Mhm. Gottlieb: --quite a bit? After your father was able to buy his own farm, did you settle down there pretty much? John B.: Oh, yeah. He died, pretty much, after he-- well, he, his little farm was out quite a ways from the city and we moved up near the city. Move from the ____[??] and build him a home and that where he died at. Gottlieb: What was the closest city to you? John B.: Wilmington, North Carolina. You could look in-- where my father died, you could look in the city if you moved from wherever the sun hit up there, you could see the city, to the city. But still, we was-- we wasn't in the city. You know, outer city limits, but never in. Gottlieb: Was this last place that your father lived, where he died? What-- was he doing any work then? Or was he retired? John B." [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: Did your mother do any work outside of your, outside the home?

John B.: No, not. I never know my mother to work outside. Well, she worked out in the farm, and the field. And what other than that, I never known her to work work, outside. And I think she did some washing and ironing, but they always take the clothes on, in washing and ironing and put them back to the, to the rich folks. Gottlieb: Did you live in an area which was mainly settled by Black people or did you live amongst the white people? John B.: No. We lived Black. Gottlieb: Did any of any other, did any of your relatives live with you on the farm? Any uncles, aunts, cousins, or anything like that? John B.: No, not that. We had one friend that lived with us. Fact he lived with us now quite a period. But he was no relation to us at all. But somehow or other he got in there before I could remember, and he-- but he finally left, but nobody never lived with us, directly, in the house with us. Not in the family. Right in the home. But this man, he wasn't any relationship to us. Gottlieb: But you don't know how he came to be family? John B.: No, that's what I was thinking with. And I don't know how, but I was quite fond of him. I considered him a friend. I was thinking about it, [unintelligible]. That fifty some years, now. I don't even know where he was, time I left.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me where some of your relatives have moved to the North? The ones that came up? John B.: There are, I have. I have quite a few moved, coming down there. And a couple that moved through there. And my sister come through there. And I have one cousin who can't [unintelligible]. Older than I am. But she both. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: Did only the one sister who moved to Philadelphia. Is that the only one of your brothers and sisters that came north?

John B.: Yeah, that's-- No. I had a brother that died that came North. But she was the only one that lived. But fact she, when he died ______[??], the two of them, two of them that were brother and sister. Gottlieb: Did they come up before you or after? John B.: Yeah, I was up before any of them, but I left, went in the service. First World War. And then I.

John B.: When I left the service I went back down South Carolina and stayed there for five years, which mean they were here then.

Gottlieb: How much schooling were you able to get in North Carolina? John B.: Schooling? Gottlieb: Yeah. Do you remember the school you went to for a while? John B.: Yeah, I went to-- old country school. And, uh, you had a _____[??]. [unintelligible]. Brought my books to school, that's how I do my trip. [unintelligible] Gottlieb: Were these women? John B.: Both of them were women. Gottlieb: Do you remember the the building, what the school buildings were like? Were they way out in the country? John B.: Yeah. Well, really, it was near the settlement, you know, that had the-- The Black people, who, they had the Black children.

John B.: And the white school, they didn't have anything [unintelligible]. Gottlieb: What times of year would you be in school? John B.: I think we-- in school about September, but after in August, I had to go to _____[??] school. Cause, uh, there were too many-- there were five of us. The master, back then, ______[??] was out, we helpin' on the farm or something. And then, out there, that's way you put it. Out there, you go to school.

Gottlieb: He needed you to help him. John B.: That's right. And you tell, my father has five or six [??]. Gottlieb: Did any of your brothers or sisters get the, more opportunity to attend school than you did? John B.: Well, yes. My youngest sister did. But the older ones-- I had brothers never went to school.

John B.: But, uh. And my younger brother, my youngest sister. [unintelligible] Gottlieb: So even when you were able to

Gottlieb: go to school, you didn't go regularly. John B.: That's right. There was, I think I had-- need to work something. never. I had to stay home and get work. Whenever I had to plow with the ____[??]. Gottlieb: What would you have rather been doing, sitting in the classroom or doing work on your father's farm? Do you remember how you felt about it back then? John B.: Yes. I've always wanted to go to school. I've always had it. And I did have a chance to go in to school after I grew up. I was about 18 then. I went up to school there quite a while. And, uh, the church. There was a social movement. They send me to school. Well, they didn't-- Didn't take me out of-- Didn't say that. Gotta admit. But any boy, anyone from that particular age, you haven't been. And I superintendent of Sunday School every time. And everybody wanted me to accept the invitation and go. Because they like me and I was ____[??] around there. But I wouldn't do it with my mother and father is getting old at the time and there was nobody home and I wanted to stay there and, you know, around my mother and father. And so. I take that opportunity, I never have left school, really [??]. Gottlieb: Oh, can you tell me a little bit about that, how you got the opportunity to go and what kind of things you studied? John B.: Night school. Gottlieb: Yes. John B.: I want to use this. You know, as I told you, first I want to make school things and other things [??]. So, had a school separated, ____[??]. Gottlieb: Where was the class held? John B.: In the Homestead. In the Homestead. In, and that in the-- one was in the church, and one was in the community.

Gottlieb: In Second Baptist Church? John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: He was teaching? John B.: That-- uh. I had a couple teachers. The teacher that ____[??], he the reverend. Because I take grammar before I _____[??] under. Let's see, what teachers, I had _____[??] in the Bible and Mr. Simpson. Professor Simpson, he taught a man religious, taught. [unintelligible] He one of the religious teachers. Gottlieb: Did he call Black people? What period of time was that when you were going to school? Night school. John B.: Oh, that was up here. Every time I go to school. Yeah, that was-- ____[??] period. Yeah, early stages. Gottlieb: Had there ever been any other opportunities for you to do this, or is this the first time you've been in? John B.: Yeah, yeah. I don't know. There might have been other opportunities, but not-- I never, you know. It never was offered to me, you know, confronted like this, like it was at this time, fact I could have got everything, you know. Far in any words. I got married in-- in '37. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Was there some particular circumstance which made you more interested in going to night school? John B.: Yeah, I realized that I was so far behind. You know. As I said, I was, do attended some school in North Carolina. Well, that wouldn't fit in here. [unintelligible] Because I did know enough, let's put it that way. I think I would never. And so. I knew I had a lot of catching up. Gottlieb: Did your father tell you very much about slavery? Did you ever talk to him much about that? John B.: He tried, but he said-- all he said, my father tried to avoid it. I've always thought so, anyhow. I've never heard him say it. I've never asked him. But I thought to myself, decided, boy, because I never, you know, hear him talk about. Gottlieb: Did your-- did your mother come up under slavery? John B.: Yes, but she's quite young. My mother-- [unintelligible]. Gottlieb: I think I might have interrupted

Gottlieb: you just before. You were mi-- Were you going to mention some things your father did say about slavery?

John B.: Well, that's-- he said quite a few things. But no, the thing it seems is that. I can remember. Only he said that-- I remember this very vividly that he said the one man that he were renting off of, he said, is just like his old master in slavery. And he's talking about that. He said, that he's always said, just like him. But at this time I feel like workin' under slavery. I said, you had to farm, sharecroppin', about first place. [unintelligible] That's like. Just like a master, you know, the master, one of them white fellas? Yeah. He doesn't, he wouldn't talk that much about it. Never would talk that much about that.

Gottlieb: Did you get along with your parents pretty well? John B.: Yeah. Oh I did. They refer to me as the good boy of the family. You'd have me telling you that. But that's the way it was. They always-- my brother. My brother in law, my oldest sister was married, after she got married and stayed with us for a while in the home. And my father and mother had to go to see another sister of mine way out in the country, she riding ____[??]. My mother. And on a Sunday, while they were there with the new sister, my youngest brother was died in Philadelphia, and one of my other brothers got in a fight with my brother in law at home and they knew we were down there. My father, before he left to come back home. And my father thought, round there that said no, he told me, Bill, they call, my name is John and they called me Bill. And my father also, his name John. I was named after my father. And he say no, Bill didn't do it. That's what he heard, that I was, you know, had ______[??]. And he said no. And it showed you how the ____[??] that he had in me, you know, and after he said that and after you got to me, I was determined then to always do right. So you could have that. If he thought at the time that I wouldn't do a thing like that, then I was holdin up. I was going to stand right and I did it from that day I live. And I had brothers, one of my brothers. He'd do anything. Poor fella. And then I had to-- I had two brothers two o'clock. They reckless [??]. I went there, two thousand [??]

John B.: They left me what on the street because of the fact that I was with a crowd and. I didn't build it now. I never been left with me. 'Cause the folk-- Five years ago? No, five years today, because I've been up there five years ago. I didn't go to school up on the hill in that year and so _____[??] grab me up there and [unintelligible].

John B.: The 1912.

Gottlieb: You spoke highly of your mother. You get along well with her?

John B.: Yeah, very well. Only she's a better Christian than myself. Not. And I don't mean she understood better, but she-- she, she, she believe.

John B.: She wanted to be better. She didn't believe in talking loud on Sunday. And if it's Sunday night, sit down and be quiet.

John B.: You couldn't sing certain songs. Couldn't smoke. She could read up here. She have her Bible. She could read the Bible too. But she was very, very-- I guess the rules. She was, even after she dead.

John B.: And I pass the door. I heard her call my name in a prayer. God said. I don't know [unintelligible] Called my name, Lord, blessed me and take care of me. Ask the Lord, askin' ____[??] I said,

John B.: How can I help you?

John B.: She is ______[??]. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: What kind of work would you be helping your parents with on the farm there when you got old enough to work? John B.: I plow. Sometimes they call it weedin'. [unintelligible] Use the hoe. Then you harvest, I help them collect. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: Were there particular kinds of jobs that the-- that young people would be asked to do there, or did they really help with almost anything that had to be done?

John B.: Well, in that particular day, in that day, them folks, they-- obey your parents. That's all, whatever they try and say, it was law and follow.

John B.: Not like now, we learn, nowadays parents say, always do it first. You know, so it's different now. But then whatever your parents did, it was that-- you might disobey behind your back or something like that. But, uh. You had to _________[??]

John B.: Because my father used to wear a piece of harness. And that is-- he took it off of the harness. Big piece of leather. He wear it for a belt. Round his head. Have it handy. And if you disobeyed him. You got it.

Gottlieb: Did your family ever take any of the crops into town to sell them in the market? John B.: Oh yes, yes. Every Saturday and sometimes during the week, have a wagon, I've got, I was goin', got a big wagon, have a scale sometimes, [unintelligible]. Watermelon, [unintelligible] That was when it rained. It rained, you have a measure.

John B.: Yeah, that's the way it was. Every Saturday. Take that money, take it home. Comes down to take three or four hours. Gottlieb: That was good money then. John B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: What town was it that you would take it to? John B.: Wilmington, North Carolina. Gottlieb: You take it to Wilmington. Okay. I wasn't sure that I understood that it was Wilmington that was close to you all the while you were growing up.

Gottlieb: Was it a large market? Were a lot of other people there selling their things? John B.: Oh, yeah. [unintelligible]. Some people would leave--