B., Caleb, April 9, 1976, tape 1, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: The following interview is with Mr. Caleb B., of 114 West 12th Avenue, Homestead, Pennsylvania. Recorded on the 9th of April 1976. [audio cuts]

Gottlieb: Maybe you can just tell me in your own words about your life. Where you come from and how you came up to Pittsburgh. Caleb B.: Yeah, I can't remember [unintelligible] from Marion. Gottlieb: From Marion? Caleb B.: Yeah. Marion, South Carolina.

Caleb B.: I came up here wondering for myself and came up by myself. And I got the boys in Richmond, Virginia, they came up here. And I've been up here ever since. Gottlieb: Um, let me ask you a little bit about South Carolina. Um, were your parents born right around the area you grew up?

Caleb B.: They were born down in South Carolina. All of them were born down in South Carolina. 16 of them were born down in South Carolina. Gottlieb: Are those your brothers and sisters? Caleb B.: All were born in South Carolina. Gottlieb: Uh huh. What about your grandparents? Did they also come from-- Caleb B.: Down in South Carolina. Gottlieb: Did you, uh, did you know your grandparents when you were growing up? Did they live around the area? Caleb B.: Yeah, I was a small boy, but I knew them. Yeah. Gottlieb: Do you remember anything about them? Caleb B.: No, sir, I don't remember nothing about them. My dad had me out there cuting-- he had two plantations. He had me out there cutting up, cutting-- weaving up stuff and cutting down trees and making farm. Yeah. Gottlieb: So your, your, uh, did your father own these places, or was he? Caleb B.: That's right. He owned them. Gottlieb: He owned them. Caleb B.: That's right. Gottlieb: Well, he must have been a fairly wealthy man for that period of time then. I don't think many Black people in South Carolina owned farms back then. Caleb B.: That's right. My dad owned two farms back then. You move from one farm to the other, and we cleaned that last farm up. Yeah. Gottlieb: Do you know how he got ahold of this land?

Caleb B.: No. I don't know how he got ahold of it. I don't know that. He had me out there plowing. I was so small, I had to plow. I had to ride that so low, I couldn't put my hand on it. I had to plow about right there, plowing. Gottlieb: Uh huh. What kind of things did your father raise on the farm?

Caleb B.: Corn and cotton and nothing, nothing, nothing--

Gottlieb: Did he raise any animals? Any livestock?

Caleb B.: Yeah. He had cows and hogs.

Gottlieb: Did you raise any vegetables there? I mean-- Caleb B.: Yes. Greens and black eyed peas and white potatoes, all that kind of stuff. Caleb B.: Um, you said there-- you had, did you have 15 brothers and sisters? Caleb B.: I got 16 all of them. Gottlieb: So there were 17 in all? 17 children? Caleb B.: Yes. That's right. Gottlieb: Were you the oldest boy or-- Caleb B.: No, sir, I'm the youngest boy. Gottlieb: Are you the youngest one? Caleb B.: Yes, sir. Gottlieb: What place are you in the 17? Caleb B.: I was down in Marion, South Carolina. Gottlieb: Yeah. no, what I meant to ask was, were you the eighth child? Ninth? Caleb B.: No, I've been. I've been the 10th shot, I think. Yeah. Gottlieb: When you were growing up there, did did you have any other relatives living with you besides, you know, your parents and your brothers and sisters?

Caleb B.: No it was only with my brothers and sisters.

Gottlieb: Did any of your, uh, relatives from South Carolina move north, or were you the only one? Caleb B.: No. A gang of them up here. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Caleb B.: Yeah, they just follow me. Gottlieb: But you were the first one to leave. Caleb B.: That's right. Gottlieb: Of all, of all your family, your mother's side. Your father's side. Caleb B.: That's right. I was forced to leave, so My daddy died in 66, and all my brothers died down there in Marion, South Carolina. But I got six. I got four sisters living down there now. Yeah. Gottlieb: Which of your relatives have moved up here since you came? Caleb B.: My older brother's daughter and-- it's my oldest brother's daughter, came up here following me. Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: Yeah. And that's the only relative from down there who's come up here. Caleb B.: Yeah, that's right. Gottlieb: Is she in Homestead? Caleb B.: Yeah she lived over here on the north side somewhere. Gottlieb: And every-- and all the other people stayed down there. Caleb B.: That's right. Gottlieb: What kind of work did your father have you doing on the farm besides plowing? Caleb B.: That's all. Plowing. Digging up ground for a farm. Yeah. Gottlieb: He and he-- you said he started you out pretty young. Caleb B.: Yeah, that's right. Gottlieb: Were you able to go to school Very much? Caleb B.: One week in my life. Gottlieb: Is that right? Caleb B.: One week in my life. When I leave South Carolina and came up here, I made a cross mark. Had to get hired. Well, I learned how to write songs since I came here to South Carolina. I mean to Pittsburgh.

Gottlieb: Who, who, who taught you how to write once you were here? Caleb B.: I dreamed it. Gottlieb: You dreamed it? Caleb B.: God called me to preach the gospel and told me-- I told God that I didn't want to preach because I don't have no education. He said, if you go preach, I will send you a man. He said, send me a man if I go preach. But I start out talking with God and he brought me a black fountain pen and said write in that same dream. I told him I can't write. He said, write. He took the pen out of my hand and he told me to write my name. And I never wrote my name in my life. Gottlieb: Huh. Caleb B.: Yeah. That's when I started out. Gottlieb: Did, uh-- did God ever send you a man to help you? He meant to send the Holy Spirit. Gottlieb: Uh huh. I see. Caleb B.: Did you ever go to any classes up here or any any kind of school? Caleb B.: No. No, sir. There was no kind of school up here? All I had a dream up here. Gottlieb: Did the other children in your family? Were they able to go to school? Caleb B.: Yes, they went to school. Gottlieb: Why weren't you able to? Caleb B.: I don't know. My dad had kept me plowing and doing something on the farm.

Caleb B.: I was so small, but he kept me there. He moved from one farm to the other one. And this farm he moved and all my trees and bushes and stuff and we cleaned that up. Yeah. Gottlieb: So there was too much work for you to do to to go to school? Caleb B.: That's right. Gottlieb: Did you ever have any jobs off your father's farm when you were living in South Carolina? Caleb B.: No, I went to the sawmill down there and had been a fireman. Out in the woods, and then came up here. Gottlieb: I see. Um, how old were you when you got the sawmill job in South Carolina? Caleb B.: I've been. I've been 16. 16. Gottlieb: And you had never. You had never worked at that sawmill before. This was the first time you were--? Caleb B.: First time. Gottlieb: Do you remember what time of year it was that? Caleb B.: No. I don't know what time of year it was. I didn't really think of that part. Gottlieb: Why did you-- why did you go to work at this sawmill at that time? Caleb B.: I wanted an automobile. I went to the sawmill to start working to work for my car. Yeah. Gottlieb: How long did you work at the sawmill? Caleb B.: Oh, about 2-- about 3 years. Gottlieb: About three years. Caleb B.: Yeah, I bought me a car. Gottlieb: Were you still living at home? Caleb B.: Yes, I was still living at home. Gottlieb: Were you, were you able to help out your father on the farm while you were working at the sawmill? Caleb B.: Helping my dad out on the farm.

Gottlieb: So you were working at two places. Really? Caleb B.: That's right. Gottlieb: Let me ask you, when, when you were-- during this period of time, the three years that you worked at the sawmill, did you spend some time at the sawmill and some time at your father's place, or did you work all year-- Caleb B.: yeah. Sometime at the sawmill Sometime my father's place. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Were there certain times of year that you would work at the sawmill and other times at your father's? Caleb B.: When the farm was done. Then I worked at the sawmill. Yeah, almost finished there. Gottlieb: I see that means when you were, when you had brought in the crop. Caleb B.: That's right. Gottlieb: You-- Caleb B.: That's right. You would go back to the sawmill? That's right. Gottlieb: Would that mean that you would be working at the sawmill pretty much during the winter months? Caleb B.: That's right. The winter months. Gottlieb: Well, what made you decide to move up here? Caleb B.: I heard talk of Homestead and I just said I was going to that I heard of the offer making good money. And I, I got the train and come to Richmond, Virginia, and got a ttransfer from Richmond, Virginia, here to Homestead. Gottlieb: Mm hmm. Who who did you hear talking about this? Caleb B.: Some. Some old man was talking about it.

Caleb B.: And I don't know the man's name now, but I said and I come up here to see this place. Gottlieb: Did. Did you say your father had died? Caleb B.: Yeah, He died at the age of 66. Gottlieb: Uh huh. And you said that in 1923. Caleb B.: That's right. Gottlieb: Did your did your family want you to carry on with the farm? To continue? Caleb B.: Well, my mother told me to come up here and be careful. She told me come up and be careful. Then I went back down there after my mother died and, and buried her. Then I turn around and come right back to Homestead. Yeah. Gottlieb: Did your-- were your brothers and sisters able to continue with the farm? Caleb B.: Yes, sir. That's Right.

Gottlieb: Did you stop anyplace between South Carolina and Richmond? No, I stopped in Richmond. That's all. Gottlieb: That was the first place.

Gottlieb: Had your parents, uh, raised any. Did your, did your parents not want you to work at the sawmill? Did they raise any objections to you doing-- Caleb B.: No, they didn't say anything about me working at the sawmill because I took my little bit of money. I get a dollar and a half a day, and I took my little money back to my mother. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Did-- and then she allowed you to have some of it or? Caleb B.: Yeah, she gives me some of that. Gottlieb: Yeah. Let me see you are 81 now.

Gottlieb: you came up here in 23. You must have been about 28 years old when you came. Caleb B.: Something like that. Yeah. Gottlieb: So you must have started working at the sawmill when you were about 25. Caleb B.: Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Gottlieb: When you had heard this man talking about Homestead, did he also talk about the transportation from Richmond? Caleb B.: Well, not very much, because I went to Richmond to come up here. It was no transportation to come. I stayed in Richmond three weeks. Then I got a transportation here to Homestead. Yeah. Gottlieb: Did you work in Richmond during those three weeks? Caleb B.: No. I didn't work in Richmond. Gottlieb: You were just waiting for the-- Caleb B.: Just waiting for the transportation to come here. Did, did somebody tell you about the transportation? Caleb B.: Some old man from up here was down there and he told me about it. Gottlieb: So you knew where to go when you got to Richmond? No, I didn't know where to go because a man from this place meet me at the train station down at Richmond and brought us back here to Homestead. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Why did you have to wait for those three weeks before you came up here? Caleb B.: I'm waiting on the transporter to come to come to Pittsburgh. Gottlieb: Yeah, yeah, so, hey, was this man Reverend Nelson? The man who-- from up here who was bringing people up from, From Richmond? Caleb B.: What'd you say about him? Gottlieb: Was his name Reverend Nelson? Caleb B.: Nelson? Gottlieb: Uh huh. Caleb B.: Yes, that's him. Gottlieb: Had you seen him in Richmond as soon as you got to Richmond and he told you you'd have to wait for three weeks? Caleb B.: That's right. Gottlieb: Yeah. Do you remember where you were living down there at that time while you waited for transportation? Caleb B.: I. I know I was living in the house down with somebody.

Caleb B.: I don't know who they were. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Were they friends of yours? Caleb B.: No. I've never seen them before. You were just staying in a room there or something. Caleb B.: That's right.

Gottlieb: Once you got up here, did you go back to South Carolina very often? Caleb B.: No, sir. Gottlieb: You just stayed up here. Caleb B.: I just stayed up here And see my sister, maybe stay a week or something like that. Come right back here. Gottlieb: Uh huh. How often did you do that? How often did you go back to visit? Caleb B.: No, just once a year. Gottlieb: Just once a year? Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Every year? Caleb B.: Yeah, every year until about 15 years when I quit going down. Gottlieb: Would you go back at the same time of year? Like, take a vacation? Caleb B.: No, no, not the same time. I was down one time, I buried my-- buried my mother. Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: And I went down two times to bury my, bury my brother. And I buried my sister. Gottlieb: Mm hm. Would you be going back down there whenever you got a chance, or? Caleb B.: Yes, yes, that right. I ain't been down or nothing in about five years since I've been down there. Gottlieb: But you're relatives are still there farming that same land? Caleb B.: That's right. My sisters. Not my brother, my brother's dead. It's my sisters down there. Gottlieb: Were you able to keep in touch with your people down there? Caleb B.: Oh, yes. We would write another. Gottlieb: Yeah. Well, you told me that you didn't know how to write when you came up here. Caleb B.: No, I didn't know how to write. I got people to write for me. Gottlieb: Oh, you got to write for you. Were the people who would write these letters for you just friends, or were they-- Caleb B.: Friends, yes. Yes, just friends. Gottlieb: Can you tell me how transportation used to work? What they would do with the men once they got them here? Caleb B.: Oh, in the middle there's a wait.

Caleb B.: That's all I know. Got off in traffic in the mill. Gottlieb: Did they give you a physical examination? Caleb B.: Yes. Yes. Gottlieb: Uh, and then they, did they take you to someplace where you could stay? Caleb B.: Well, yes. I stayed right here on Glen Street, housed in a rooming house on there. Gottlieb: Was that down in Lower Homestead at that time? Caleb B.: No that was right here on the second, second street from here. Gottlieb: Do you remember the family that you were staying with? Caleb B.: Old man Johnson was all I know. That his son was the cook. Yeah.

Gottlieb: What kind of a, what kind of a job did they give you down in the mill when you first started? Caleb B.: Carrying scrap. Gottlieb: Oh, yeah. Caleb B.: Yeah. Hardest job the company had. Gottlieb: Can you tell me about what you'd have to do there? Caleb B.: Yes. I took up the scrap and carry it to the chute. Then it's coming down, you couldn't go, throw it in the box and use the [unintelligible]. I kept the scrap like the rule. Gottlieb: So there would be a place where the scrap would have fallen [Caleb B.: Yes that's right] and you had to pick it up. Caleb B.: Put the scarp in the scrap box. Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: And the man's bac there cutting it off on the side. Gottlieb: How long did you have that job? Caleb B.: I had it until 1962. Gottlieb: You worked at that same position all the time? Caleb B.: On scrap. Yeah. Hardest job the company had. Gottlieb: Did you ever leave the mill and go look for a different job? Caleb B.: No, I stayed in the mills. I went in the mills for 36 years. Gottlieb: And you never had any other job? Caleb B.: No I had no other job. And I didn't lose a day in 36 years. Down to the mill in that years. It was a hard job.

Gottlieb: What, what department of the mill were you in? Caleb B.: I was in the whole, the whole up and down the river. 100 and a quarter. 118. 120. All those. All those [??]. I just moved, moved from one mill to the other. Gottlieb: Wherever they needed you to work. Caleb B.: That's right. Gottlieb: But no matter what department you were in, you were always doing that same job. Caleb B.: Same job, yeah. Same job up until 1962, they moved me to the slab yard, and I got on pension, my pension from the slab yard. Gottlieb: What kind of work were you doing there? Caleb B.: Chaining up. Gottlieb: Can you tell me how that, how that goes? Caleb B.: Put the lift down, I threw the chain up inside the crane who took it down in the yard. Gottlieb: So you're just kind of connecting up loads of things to the crane. Caleb B.: Yes, yes that's right. Gottlieb: How did that kind of work compare to working on the farm? Caleb B.: Crane up lift,picking up lift, taking it down there and the down there doing it. And I'm up here to the mill, chaning up, sending it down in the yard. Yeah. Gottlieb: Did you, did you like the-- did you like working in a steel mill better than you did working on a farm? Caleb B.: Yeah, I like it better. Gottlieb: Why? Caleb B.: Because I got money for it. Well, on the farm, you just plowing and pulling grass or something like that. I got money for the steel mill a dollar and a half a da when I first came here. Gottlieb: A dollar and a half a day. Caleb B.: Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Um. Do you think you could have had a better life if you had stayed down there? Caleb B.: No, sir. No, sir. I've had a better life by coming up here. If I had been down there, I wouldn't have the pension coming that I got now. Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Well, some people talk about, you know, living out in the country and having fresher air and better--

Caleb B.: We had fresher air all right but fresher air don't mean everything. Yeah, but I'm got my pension now and put in the mailbox every month. I don't have to worry about nothing no more. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Caleb B.: And my sisters and the thing down there are not doing as good as I'm doing because they got to work for it. Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: I don't have to work for it. Gottlieb: What about when, back when you were young? Do you think there was an advantage of being up here when you were a young man?

Caleb B.: No, I'd probably stay down there, I'd have gone down like the rest of them. Old and no, no, no getting around. Just moving. Just moving. Just moving. Gottlieb: Were you a single man when you came up here? Were you single? Caleb B.: My wife just died. Gottlieb: Oh, I meant when you first came up here in 1924. Caleb B.: Yeah, I was single when I first came up here. Gottlieb: What were you using the money you were earning for when you worked here? Caleb B.: For a farm. Yeah for a farm. Caleb B.: You were, you had planned to, to go back to the South? Caleb B.: Yeah, I had a mind to go back. But then my mind would change. I'd stay up here, I got the money to go back and my mind would change and I stayed. That's why I'm here today. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Caleb B.: Backwards and forewards. Backwards and forewards. Gottlieb: When did you finally decide to stay here? Caleb B.: After. after-- I got married. And I come up here to another woman from down South. And I said, I'll stay on up here. Yeah. Gottlieb: Cool. Do you remember about what time that was?

Caleb B.: No. I don't remember. I don't remember what time of year that was. It was the man I roomed with had a sister and she came up here to see him and I married her.

Gottlieb: But you never had wanted to go back to your parent's farm. You would want to get a farm of your own. Caleb B.: Yes. See, I had my dad farm down there. See? Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: My dad's farm. Gottlieb: Well, what did you need the money for from up here, then if you had your dad's farm already? Caleb B.: Buy different things. I was buying different things. Gottlieb: Did you ever start to do that? Do you ever go back down south and buy things for a farm? Caleb B.: No I was buying clothes and grocery, that's all. Just living is all. Gottlieb: Do you know what did you do with the car you had? Caleb B.: I give it to my brother and I came up here. Yeah. Gottlieb: Did you buy one up here? Caleb B.: No. Didn't have one up here.

Gottlieb: Did you know anybody from down in your home when you were living in Homestead? Was there anybody who had come up from there? Caleb B.: No. Nobody, Nobody but myself. They were all back down there. After I came here at that time, they started following me up here. After I was telling them how I was getting along up here and they're coming one by one. One by one. Yeah. Caleb B.: Were these friends of yours from down there? Caleb B.: Yes. Yes. Gottlieb: Would they be staying with you when they came up? Caleb B.: No. We all-- we had the rooming houses. There were sometimes 15, 20 people in that same rooming house. Gottlieb: Yeah. Would they get in touch with you when they got here? Caleb B.: Yeah, they got in touch with me. Gottlieb: Would you try and help them out? Caleb B.: I did all I could to help them out. Gottlieb: What, what kind of things would you do to help them?

Caleb B.: Give them my money until they get some. Possibly create a room with-- all of that?

Gottlieb: Yeah. Did you ever help them to get a job? Caleb B.: Well, no. They come up and the mill will give them a job. Gottlieb: Did you ever take them to a foreman or, foreman or something like that? Caleb B.: Yes I took them to my foreman. Mr. Nelson. Gottlieb: You would take them to Mr. Nelson? Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Was he your foreman? Caleb B.: Yeah, he's my foreman. Gottlieb: The same Reverend Nelson? Caleb B.: Yeah, that's right. Gottlieb: I didn't know that he worked in the mill. I thought he was in the personnel office. Caleb B.: Yeah, the personnel office. That's a connection to the mill, too. Gottlieb: Right. Caleb B.: He'd bring the boys down there. He took him down there in the morning, put them on the job. Then he wouldn't go back no more. Gottlieb: Yeah, right. Caleb B.: Bring on another crew, and he'd take them to the mill. Gottlieb: Right. So. So when your friends wanted a job, it was Nelson that you went to give him a job. Caleb B.: That's right. I went to Nelson. Very nice man. Gottlieb: What would-- would Nelson be trying to help the Black people from the South who were coming up here in some other way? Caleb B.: Well, he would meet them down in Richmond, Virginia, and bring them on up here [doorbell rings] on the train. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Wait a second. [audio cuts]

Gottlieb: Can you tell me the different places that you've lived in Homestead? Different addresses where you stayed? Caleb B.: Um, I stayed in a place called Glen Hazel. Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: Then I'd come back to Homestead.

Caleb B.: Then when my wife died, I moved in with my daughter. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: You first lived on Glen Street. Yeah: I'd first lived on Glen street. Caleb B.: How long did you stay there? Well, I stayed there, I guess, around two years. Rooming with them. Then I moved out on Sixth Avenue. Gottlieb: Mhm.

Caleb B.: I married this man's daughter. This wife died when I was living here, and then I moved with my daughter here.

Gottlieb: So from, so from sixth Avenue, you moved to Glen Hazel? Caleb B.: I moved from on this street here, to Sixth Avenue. Gottlieb: Oh, yeah, right. Caleb B.: Then I went to Glen Hazel. Gottlieb: Okay. And then back-- Caleb B.: Back. Back at Homestead. Yeah. Gottlieb: Was the wo-- I'm, I'm not sure I remember whether you told me this, but was the woman you married from South Carolina? Caleb B.: Yes, sir. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Caleb B.: South Carolina. Gottlieb: Had you known her before you moved up here? Caleb B.: No I was rooming with her brother. Her brother had a room in a house on Sixth Avenue. Where I could simply, I could cook for myself. And I leave this place here. Leave that on Sixth. Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: He sent for his daughter, his sister, to come up here. And I caught it in the mail. Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: The other people that knew you from your home in South Carolina, would they be coming up and staying at the same boarding house you were staying at? Caleb B.: [??] at the same boarding house, yeah. All they had then, a big boarding house, six and seven and 10, maybe 13 people, living in one house.

Gottlieb: Why did you move from the place at Glen Street down to Sixth Avenue? Caleb B.: The man down here would let me cook. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. Uh huh. And then this other place you had to eat your meals out. Caleb B.: No, eating in some houses the man cook for us. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. Caleb B.: The man cook for us on Glen Street. Gottlieb: didn't you like the food he made for you?

Caleb B.: No, I really cook for myself.

Gottlieb: Was the place up here in, in Glen Street was this area then Black neighborhood when you lived up here on on Glen Street? Caleb B.: Yes. Gottlieb: it was? Caleb B.: Yes.

Gottlieb: When you came up here, did you notice any difference between the Black people who were coming up from the South and the Black people who had been born in the north who were living up here. Caleb B.: Yes, I-- was different. Gottlieb: Can you tell me about them? Caleb B.: Up here the Black people had a better home than we did down south. The White man treated you right here. Better than he did down south. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Did a, did the Black people who had been born up in the North treat you, uh, any differently than the folks down home had treated you? Caleb B.: Well, uh, no. About the same cause I ain't been down home very much. I've had all the good treatment, I got it up here. Gottlieb: Is that right? Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Did they ever look down on you and make fun of you in any way? Caleb B.: No. No. One. One man-- you mean White or Black? Gottlieb: Oh, Black. I mean, the Black people who had been born up here at this point. Caleb B.: Oh, no, no. They just treat me right, as you said. I've known myself. Because if you treat me right enough down south, you can see all these kind of things to me. I tried to live a Christian life.

Gottlieb: Um, what did you think of Homestead when you first saw it? Caleb B.: Oh, I knew I was in Homestead. Yeah. Gottlieb: Did it impress you as a a good place to live, or did you not like it? Caleb B.: Yeah it's a good place to live. A good place to live. Gottlieb: Were there any things about it that you didn't like? Caleb B.: No. Everything was all right.

Gottlieb: Um, when did you join the Second Baptist Church? Caleb B.: Down here on Sixth Avenue. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Do you remember what year it was? Caleb B.: 1923. Gottlieb: When you first came up? Caleb B.: Yeah, I joined my church then. Gottlieb: Did, uh. Why-- there were two Baptist, Black Baptist churches in Homestead at that time. Why did you choose, uh, Second Baptist? Caleb B.: I lived right next door to the Clark Memorial. He had the foundation built, and I went down there to Sixth Avenue to Reverend Morton. And I joined that church because I liked it. Reverend Horton. Gottlieb: You liked-- it was because of Reverend Morton? Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Was, was it Reverend Jones who was up at Clark Memorial at that time when you were here? Caleb B.: No, I can't remember this was way back. I can't remember that man's name because he had a church, an old, old piece of house. We had no churches, we had nothing. They built that church. There's a sense of fondness of that church. Now living next to Eatonville. Gottlieb: Yeah. What did what did you like about Reverend Morton?

Caleb B.: He just a down home preacher. That's all I liked about him.

Caleb B.: Down home preacher. Gottlieb: Had you been brought up in the church in the South? Caleb B.: Yes, sir. Baptist Church down there. Gottlieb: Did you find that, uh, Second Baptist Church was pretty much like the church you'd been brought up in? Caleb B.: Yes. Gottlieb: It was? Caleb B.: Yes. Gottlieb: Did you notice any differences about Second Baptist Church in the church who had been brought up in. Caleb B.: Well, no. All religious churches. All I knew. Good religious church.

Gottlieb: Were there a lot of people from South Carolina who belonged to Second Baptist? Caleb B.: Yes there are. About 450 receiving on Sunday morning. Gottlieb: Oh yeah. We're down on Sixth Avenue. Caleb B.: No, that's since they moved up there. Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Did it seem to you that there were more people from South Carolina who belonged to Second Baptist than from any other state in the South? Caleb B.: Yes. And there had been more people who moved from down the South, to me.

Gottlieb: Had somebody told you about Reverend Morton or about Second Baptist Church or-- Caleb B.: When I first came here, I was grabbed by Reverand Morton's church working in the Mill. That's how I got in touch with it. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Do you ever talk to him before you started going to his church or. Caleb B.: Oh, yeah. I met him on the street another time And talked to him. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: What kind of man was he? Caleb B.: Really nice. Religious man. He talked nice to you. Preached good and everything. Gottlieb: Were you ever-- were you ever active in any other kind of church groups like the Choir or Missionary Society or anything? Caleb B.: No. I was put in the-- made president of the usher board. Gottlieb: Oh, is that right? Caleb B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: What kind of work did you have to do as president of the usher board. Caleb B.: Take care of the church inside. Seat the people and all like stuff like that. Gottlieb: Was that when you first joined or after you had been a member? Caleb B.: After I had been a member.

Gottlieb: Did you ever belong to any other kind of organizations in Homestead? Like fraternal societies? Anything? Caleb B.: No, sir. Gottlieb: You never-- Caleb B.: Nothing else. Gottlieb: Just the church. Caleb B.: Just the church. Gottlieb: How many children did you and your wife have? Caleb B.: Five. Gottlieb: Five. Are they still all living around here? Caleb B.: No. Four of them here. And the rest of them died down south? Gottlieb: Is that right? So some of them had. Some of them moved back south? Caleb B.: No, they moved down south. Just come up here and visit me, that's all. Gottlieb: Well, I believe that that's all the questions I had that I wanted to ask you. If you think that I've left out any question that would be important for me to understand what, you know, this period of history--

Gottlieb: I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me, but otherwise, I don't have any. I don't have any other questions. Caleb B.: Well, I was worried about that because I said you have to ask me what you want me to say because I didn't know so much. Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: Yeah. You know about your own life, though. That's what I was interested in. Caleb B.: So my life, a little church, man. Ever since I was big enough to go to church, in my life. I don't know. I don't remember about the world, but drinking and smoking and stuff like that. I don't know nothing about it. Never played a card in my life and do nothing. Yeah. Gottlieb: Were you ever able to do any preaching? Caleb B.: Preach to myself. Layes at night and preached. Gottlieb: Never preached to other folks, though? Caleb B.: Never. Never. Gottlieb: Did you want to? Caleb B.: Yeah, I wanted to, but it was a hard thing to do. Gottlieb: Yeah. Caleb B.: I wanted to preach, but I didn't go out and stand for the congregation after God sent me, he said he'd send me a man if I go. But I ain't going. Gottlieb: Did you ever have an opportunity to preach before a congregation? Caleb B.: Yes, sir. Amen. Somebody tell me to go ahead and preach. And after about a month he asked you ready to go preach, I said no. Gottlieb: Why did you say that? Caleb B.: Because I ain't ready to do it. Do you know that you don't have days vacation. That's a different. If I go, you send me a man. But he meant to send the Holy Spirit to tell me what I'm-- you asking me questions? Gottlieb: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't have any other questions, so thank you very much for helping me out. Caleb B.: Thank you very much. God bless.