B., Alfred, April 21, 1976, tape 1, side 2

Alfred B.: --Got to be there for the church, organize and come forward. Well, that makes-- that's, we'd call it the Second Baptist Church. We we we have our own sovereign pie and nobody to bother. We-- there's no split church. Yeah, we come, they come from scratch. That's why it is a second Baptist church.

Peter Gottlieb: Now the people who started Second Baptist, had they been members up here at Clark Memorial? Alfred B.: No. No.

Gottlieb: They hadn't been. Alfred B.: As I before stated. You live in a certain district waiting to hear whether you come or not. You know.

Gottlieb: Oh. Oh. Well, you said that your father had his family up here on the hill at one time. Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Well, that was close to Clark Memorial. Did he attend when he was living up here?

Alfred B.: Well, our church had been started then.

Gottlieb: Oh, I see. So he was going on down there.

Alfred B.: It was a, it was recognized in the Allegheny General Baptist Association in the year of 1908. Uh huh.

Gottlieb: It's-- why didn't the people who lived up here on the hill want to have anything to do with those down in the ward? Do you know?

Alfred B.: Just like any other society, you know, groups. You know, they want to want, uh, yeah, like, let's put it like this. Like in a rich district they don't want no poor man coming in or something like that. You know, I call it superiority complex. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: You think the people-- well, I won't ask you again.

Alfred B.: But now it's different. It's entirely different now. Gottlieb: Yeah. And got a different.

Gottlieb: Would you say that most of the people who live down in the ward at that time were poorer than the people who lived up here on the hill?

Alfred B.: No, there weren't any. I just made that as a parable. But, uh, no, there was no poorer because the people on the hill would come down here at night and have their fun. But when they get back to their hill in daylight, that was it. You see.

Gottlieb: I... I've heard the names of a couple of men who, along with your father, were involved with establishing Second Baptist Church. And I was wondering if you had ever known them-- a man by name Prince Cunningham.

Alfred B.: Prince Cunningham. He was a minister. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred B.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did he. Did he ever pastor Second Baptist Church?

Alfred B.: Yeah, he pastored. But he-- see what I mean by calling to take over the pastor-- the charge. See, yeah. We had what I call missionaries. You know, they come from-- evangelists, you know. When he comes from scratch. I remember when they used to have their meetings up over a blacksmith's shop. I can remember that they, you know, wherever they could get a place. Oh.

Gottlieb: What about Deacon Walker?

Gottlieb: Do you remember him? Alfred B.: He's one of the charter members too. Meade. Deacon Meade Walker. And there was a man by the name of Lacy, and he was a nice kid. Lynn.

Gottlieb: William Lynn. Was that the man? Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: He's still alive, is he not? Alfred B.: Yeah, he's still alive.

Alfred B.: Some of them, I just Can't call the name right off hand right now.

Gottlieb: Mm hmm. But... but at the time that the church got started, this was a group of people who lived down there.

Alfred B.: Yeah, A group of people got together and said they wanted to go to mission. They started out, like, as a mission. And later on, it took Reverend Morton. They selected him in 1914. He used to work in the mill, too.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Do you know what kind of job he used to have there?

Alfred B.: No, I don't. Because I was small then myself.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me what you remember about Reverend Morton? What kind of person he was?

Alfred B.: He's a great big giant of a man to me, you know. Six foot something. And he's very lovable, but he was very strict. But he said he meant and he couldn't find him in fault of anything, you know? And he tried to teach his congregation as he lived himself. Yes, and he--

Gottlieb: Was he looked up to you very much?

Alfred B.: Yes, indeed, very much so. He was a former minister-- not a minister, member of Clark Memorial when we called him.

Gottlieb: What about the people who lived up here on the hill? Do you think that they also looked up to Reverend Morton?

Alfred B.: Yes. Oh, yeah, with the highest respect. He was a great man. I know I had his picture--no, I got it. What happened to that? I don't know. I could have showed it to you. I got it put away somewhere. We had this picture down at the church. He was a very good man, hard worker.

Gottlieb: So your father had been one of this original group? [Alfred B.: Yeah, yeah, yeah] He was a charter member himself.

Alfred B.: One of the originators. My mother, too.

Gottlieb: Had there been any kind of, uh, I guess I might call it a theological disagreement between among members of Clark Memorial.

Alfred B.: No, no, no, no.

Gottlieb: Because you mentioned once or definitely that it wasn't a split church and it wasn't--

Alfred B.: No split church.

Gottlieb: I wasn't sure what you meant by that.

Alfred B.: Well, what I mean by split church, just like you take, take-- say you just take this, like this card here. That's a, that's a whole. One want to go one way and one want to go the other way. You just, that's a split. Well, they go and set up a church here and somebody goes and set up a church here. That's what they call a split church. That's a congregation going apart. Our church came from scratch.

Gottlieb: Uh. So what that would mean is that the people who started, like your father, who started Second Baptist Church, hadn't been members of [Alfred B.: No] Nevermore and they hadn't been.

Alfred B.: Members of no church.

Gottlieb: They hadn't had a church at all? Alfred B.: No. Gottlieb: Your father hadn't gone to church before Second Baptist began?

Alfred B.: Not that I know of, no.

Gottlieb: But he was a religious man. Alfred B.: Yeah

Gottlieb: Do you-- Alfred B.: H long the mission was, I don't know. Yeah, that was before I was born.

Gottlieb: Uh, do you remember if these other men who were charter members like Deacon Walker and Prince Cunningham and these people were also from the South, like your father was?

Alfred B.: Yeah. All of them came from the South. [Gottlieb: Do you--] What part of the South, I can't tell you that.

Gottlieb: That was going to be my next question.

Alfred B.: No, I couldn't tell you what part.

Gottlieb: One thing I've been interested in is it seems to me, and I'm not too sure that this is true or not, the older members of Second Baptist seem to be-- to me to be mainly from the states of South Carolina and North Carolina. Those who came up, those who were born in the South and came up.

Alfred B.: No, some of them might have been. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Gottlieb: But that. I'm not talking about your father's generation. I'm talking more about your generation. And but that the older members of Clark Memorial, because I've spoken to some of the members of that church, seem to be mainly from Virginia. Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Is that true?

Alfred B.: Reverend Jones? He was the first pastor that I, that I would know of. He was from the same place my father was from.

Gottlieb: Had they known each other down there?

Alfred B.: Oh yeah. They knew each other down there. Yeah. He pastored a church down there. Reverend Jones. So I hear them say. Yeah. Mm hmm. Then when he comes here, he took over the Clark Memorial Church. That church had made some strides too. Gottlieb: Clark Memorial? Alfred B.: Mhm

Gottlieb: Yeah. I've been reading the Pittsburgh Courier for my research, and I, I got to the point-- It was in 1923 when they opened this building over here. Alfred B.: With the new building. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Alfred B.: And the other building was just across the street. Gottlieb: From here? Alfred B.: No, from this, the new church. Gottlieb: Oh. Alfred B.: Their old church is right across the street from it. Well, Bob Turner, he has his body shop in there.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Well, I read about how they had a parade and they marched from the old building to the new building. And that Reverend Morton.

Alfred B.: Oh, that. You're talking about that Western Clark Memorial. You're talking about Reverend Morton? Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah. We marched from Sixth Avenue. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: That was 222. We marched from there to Fourth Avenue where we had bought a church. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Well, the Courier story was about Clark Memorial and how and how they had marched to their new church. But I--

Alfred B.: We just went across the street. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred B.: We went, we went to Fourth Avenue from Sixth. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah. On a bright, sunny morning too.

Gottlieb: So and but I was noticing in that story that Reverend Morton had preached a sermon in Clark Memorial at that time, so.

Alfred B.: Oh, yeah, he-- he was a young minister there. He was a member of the Clark Memorial. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: I also understand that he had pastored another church.

Alfred B.: Yeah. Out in I think it was Bruceton or someplace he had pastored. That's when we called him. We called him from that church. Yeah. He was pastoring out there. I think it was Bruceton. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Um, and this might be something you wouldn't remember, but I was wondering if you could recollect what kind of sermons used to be Reverend Morton's favorite kind of-- what kind of things he would like to talk about most often when he preached?

Alfred B.: Well, I remember some good sermons, you know what I mean? outstanding to me. One of them was as an eagle stirreth her nest. That was more of a parent teaching their young. You see, he'd go through the process of how that eagle would make up its nest. And when he got to the place that he, they'd get tired of feeding him, you know, time for him to be getting out on his own. Well, they'd push him out of the nest and if he couldn't make it, they'd swoop down under him and get him and bring him back to them. Oh, he. He outlined it and made it just as plain as it. That was one of his sermons. I can remember that. And he used to preach on the prodigal son. Yeah. And the gang of them. I just can't remember a whole lot.

Gottlieb: Was he a powerful speaker?

Alfred B.: Yes, he was. Dianetic [??]. Yeah. He was well loved by everybody. Gottlieb: That's what I've heard. Alfred B.: Yeah. Yeah. All walks of people looked up to him.

Gottlieb: Um, I've heard in connection with some other churches that when they needed some money for a building fund or something. Uh, a place like Carnegie would help them out. You know, help them, uh, you know, donate some money towards their church. Do you know, if there was ever that kind of relationship between the mill here and the Second Baptist.

Alfred B.: Well, the mills would give, uh, contributions, but we never did ask for any. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred B.: He was that kind of a leader. We just went out on our own.

Gottlieb: You know, whether there was any-- ever any kind of relationship between the church and the company.

Alfred B.: No, not that I know of.

Gottlieb: Do you know whether or not the church ever had any kind of special programs to help the people who were coming up from the South in great numbers? Well, you would have been a young man at the time, but not not so young you couldn't remember.

Alfred B.: No, they didn't have no program to go all out for that. No. No.

Gottlieb: They never made any particular attempt to get these people into the church?

Alfred B.: Well, they didn't have to make no attempt. The way he was, the leader he was they would come. Well, when the word was like wildfire, what church can I go to or something like that? Well, we tell them, go to all of them. Then you say you make your own choice.

Gottlieb: Um, do you recollect whether many of these people who were coming up at this period of time were, uh, uh, oriented towards, towards the church for, uh, religious people? Or did Homestead become a become a place where there are a lot of people who never paid any attention to religion?

Alfred B.: No, I can't say there was a lot of people who never did pay [telephone rings] any attention to them. Because Homestead is a religious town [telephone rings]. We have more churches here than any place else that I know of. Yeah, I know one, one street down there. I guess we have a block about-- around about, probably eight churches on it.

Gottlieb: Do you ever remember there being any what they used to call holiness churches in Homestead?

Alfred B.: Yeah. That would be one of the tours out the mill there. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me anything about those you know.

Alfred B.: No. Because I'd very seldom go to them. They kept me busy in my own. Yeah. But we had them.

Gottlieb: So was your father a deacon [Alfred B.: Yeah] of the Second Baptist right from the time it got started.

Alfred B.: From the start. From the start. Yeah. He would be.

Gottlieb: What kind of, uh, positions have you had in second-- in the Second Baptist Church.

Alfred B.: Well, right after his death, I succeeded him. Gottlieb: Oh, you did? Alfred B.: Mhm. And I've been the secretary from 37 up to 60. Oh no. Past 60.

Gottlieb: Mhm. And are you Deacon now. Alfred B.: Yeah.

Alfred B.: Then I was a Sunday school teacher as well as, uh, as assistant superintendent.[tape paused]

Gottlieb: Did your father ever belong to? Any lodges, fraternal associations, or anything like that?

Alfred B.: No, not that I know of.

Gottlieb: What about yourself? Alfred B.: Oh, yeah. Gottlieb: Which ones?

Alfred B.: Masonic.

Gottlieb: Do they have a fairly large following here in Homestead?

Alfred B.: Yeah. We have our own own temple down here, right across from Clark Memorial Church.

Gottlieb: Do you know how long it's existed in Homestead.

Alfred B.: That was before I was born too. First they had it over here on Ann Street. I hear him say. But when I joined him, there was down here.

Gottlieb: Have you ever belonged to any others besides Masons?

Alfred B.: No.

Gottlieb: Have you been very active in, in, in the lodge here?

Alfred B.: Yep. Gottlieb: Do you have-- Alfred B.: And still am.

Gottlieb: Do you--

Alfred B.: I'm passed masters. Gottlieb: Oh.

Gottlieb: Well, let me just look over my sheets here. I think I've gotten about to the end of what I wanted to talk to you about. If you think I've left out anything that you feel is important about your life or your father's life, I should ask you this before I, before I turn off the tape recorder. Did your mother ever have any jobs outside of the house?

Alfred B.: Yeah. She would go out and do housework. The people that she did. Not too much, but she went to people, they knew us very well and she would do a little work for 'em.

Gottlieb: Was this in Homestead? Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: She never went--

Alfred B.: No she'd go to Munhall. To Munhall. But she's-- from Homestead to Munhall. she never did come. And it was just about 1 or 2 families. And they kept her busy because most of the time when they go on vacations, they take her with them. Gottlieb: Is that right? Alfred B.: Yeah. They take her with them. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Were these wealthy families.

Alfred B.: Well, they weren't too poor. You know, superintendents of the Carnegie Steel there, you know. Well, maybe you heard of them. I know you would know them. The McCrady brothers, you know them? Gottlieb: McCrady? Alfred B.: Yes, they had McCrady Rogers. I know when they'd go on their vacations, you know, you know, go up to the what they call cabins or anything. She'd go along with them.

Gottlieb: Cook their meals for them?

Alfred B.: Yeah cooking meals for them and everything. Oh, in fact, that she just supervised, you know. She was well liked, as loved. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Was this a was this steady employment for her? Did she just do it from time to time?

Alfred B.: Well, whenever she felt like it.

Gottlieb: Didn't that create some kind of hardship around the around the home?

Alfred B.: No, no. No, no hardship, because my dad always-- whatever she wanted to do, you know, she'd go. He never would cramp her down and say, no, you can't do this. No, you can't do that. Whenever she felt like she wanted to go ahead and do it, well, that was for the betterment of the home too because she's pulling right with him, you know, helping him, which I think every woman should do. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Who looked after the Alfred B. household when she was out working?

Alfred B.: Well, she had an uncle there, my father's brother. Then my grandmother was there too.Then my older sisters, you know.

Gottlieb: They would all help too?

Alfred B.: Yeah. Oh, they better if they were going to stay under his roof. Gottlieb: Did you have-- Alfred B.: We had no problems at all.

Gottlieb: Did you have any duties you had to do around the house when you were a youngster?

Alfred B.: Oh, yeah I had chores. Yeah. Each one of us had chores. See, some of my brothers, they'd have to help around the tables, do the washing dishes and everything. My chore was-- in those times you burnt those kerosene lamps. Well, that was my job, to keep them filled and the chimneys clean and the wicks trim. That was my job for every day. But come on a Saturday, I was given the living room to keep clean.

Gottlieb: You had to keep it clean.

Alfred B.: Keep it clean. Oh, man. I had that strange time. And I wish I had kept some of that furniture now, would have been worth something. Gottieb: Yeah, you bet. Alfred B.: But you know how it is with young people when they get married. The women want this. Well, you have to satisfy your wife anyway.

Gottlieb: Which of the jobs that you have had in your lifetime gave you the most satisfaction?

Alfred B.: Well, I tell you the truth. All my jobs I've worked at, I was very much pleased with it. Every job I've ever had.

Gottlieb: Did anyone in particular give you a sense of [telephone rings] that you were getting something done? Really a, uh, doing a real necessary kind of job? A sense of accomplishment?

Alfred B.: No, not that I can say, no. Well, I believe it would have been much better. I think the wire mill would have been the job that sort of did that.

Gottlieb: Is there any reason that you didn't go back to that?

Alfred B.: Well, in the meantime, they moved out from Rankin there and went to Donora. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Donora, PA. And I think since they moved up there, I think they'd gone under. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: I'm pretty sure. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: And that was too far away from your home?

Alfred B.: Yeah, for me to travel from Homestead to Donora. And there are others that had moved there to see it. I think they had dissolved. I'm pretty sure.

Alfred B.: No, I don't hear about them too much. No.

Gottlieb: Mm. Wasn't there a streetcar that would run along the valley down to Donora from Homestead?

Alfred B.: No, I can't say that. I don't remember that. There might have been one, but I can't say. One thing I can say a streetcar. I know it was one time a streetcar was running from Homestead to New Homestead at that time along the side the road. But that was-- oh, that's been so far. You know, all I can remember was the tracks. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Well, like I say, if you think I've left anything out that is important concerning your life or your father's life. Uh, I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me, but otherwise, I've kind of gotten to the end of my questions.

Alfred B.: Well, isn't there very much more to say? I know how I was raised, and I try to live that way.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. What, what kind of values do you think were were your parents trying to give to their children? If you had to, uh, describe them.

Alfred B.: Well, all in a nutshell. As you wish to be treated, treat your neighbor.

Gottlieb: It's the golden rule.

Alfred B.: That's what they, they lived by. That's the best thing I can tell anybody, if you're not going to hurt yourself, don't hurt your neighbor.

Gottlieb: Did they stress education? Did they think it was.

Alfred B.: Yeah, yeah, very much so. They said get your education. Well, we didn't get an education. It wasn't their fault because they went as far as they could. You see, the fact that I'd packed had been ready-- he did want me to go to college, but he was ailing, and I know he couldn't put that money out. And better for me to stay here and help him because I made progress. Mhm. Things might have went kind of rough sometimes, but I never got to the place that I actually had to crawl.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Were you ever aware that your father wanted you to do a particular kind of work?

Alfred B.: I think he wanted me to go into the ministry.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Do you remember ever having any discussions about that or having differences with him about it?

Alfred B.: No, never. But he'd always say, I believe you-- but we would, we'd get to talking, you know, all of us together. And I'd like I could bring the scripture out more to him and everything. He'd watched me and my actions, motions and the speech he would tell my mother I believe he was called to the ministry. But I believe I was called to teach and instruct. I don't think I was called to pastor because a teacher, I didn't do good because I've studied myself. Yeah. They believe they was picked on that.

Gottlieb: You always had to go to church.

Alfred B.: No, they didn't force us to go to church. But the way they lived and the way they presented it, that you'd be always reaching out, seeing what you you'd be adventurous and want to see what it was all about. And in so doing, you grab something for yourself. You could realize what they wanted to do, but they never did believe in driving nobody because they did say if you drive, you just do it because we were saying so. And when you go I want you to go because you want to go. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Sound like they were very fine people.

Alfred B.: Oh, they were. And the whole length of their lifespan. I never did hear him call her a liar. I never did hear her call him a liar.

Gottlieb: Do you think they got on well together?

Alfred B.: None of these kids could say that we ever heard them spatting.

Gottlieb: There was something.

Alfred B.: He was 68. She was 84.

Gottlieb: Oh, is that right? Did any of your brothers or sisters ever leave Homestead, go live someplace else?

Alfred B.: Yeah. My sister, she went up to Creighton. You know, that's right across the river there from New Kensington.

Gottlieb: And she's the only one who ever moved out of home.

Alfred B.: No. Out of Homestead? Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah. Shew as the only one who ever left Homestead and...

Gottlieb: And all the rest of you stayed around.

Alfred B.: Stayed right around Homestead. Yeah. Gottlieb: So your-- Alfred B.: Of course I had one brother. He, he was a roamer. He just kept going. But mostly all of them just stayed around Homestead. But he would always returned back, though. All the rest of us stayed within Homestead.

Gottlieb: Um.

Alfred B.: That's so far as living, you know. Gottlieb: Right. Alfred B.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Well, thank you very much.

Alfred B.: Well I hope you've got something that'll do you some good. [tape ends]