B., Alfred, April 21, 1976, tape 1, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: Name of interviewer, Peter Gottlieb. Place, 106 West 13th Avenue. Homestead, Pennsylvania. Date, April 21st, 1976. Person being interviewed, Mr. Alfred B. He's a Black man, a municipal employee, Baptist. [recording paused]

Gottlieb: Um, tell me something about your father. Where he-- where he came from, how he came up here, and why he decided to come, as much as you know.

Alfred B.: Well, as much as I know about it, he was born in, uh, in Virginia. And he came to Homestead, I think, if I make no mistake, it was 1892. So he thought it would be much better for him and the family to raise a family much more better. When he came here-- well, he brought quite a large family when he came. Of course, I was born here in Homestead.

Gottlieb: Do you know what kind of work he did in Virginia?

Alfred B.: No, I don't. Not other than work on the farm or something like as far as I would know. Mhm. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did he own a farm there?

Alfred B.: No. No.

Gottlieb: Do you know what part of the state he was from?

Alfred B.: It was Montvale, Virginia. That's right down below Roanoke. It's about 7 or 8 miles from Roanoke.

Gottlieb: Was his family from all around that area?

Alfred B.: Yeah. He was born and raised there. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred B.: That's before coming to Homestead.

Gottlieb: Right. What about your mother's family? Were they from that area?

Alfred B.: Yeah. In the same area. Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Uh, and as far as you know, he, uh, worked on a farm or did some kind of farm work.

Alfred B.: Yeah. Did some kind of farm work. Of course he used to. Uh, I think I heard him say that he used to, uh, lay rails, you know? Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred B.: And he'd tell me about how they used to-- had to be a man then, you know, they'd, they'd drive in-- they'd drive the spikes. They had to put it down with three licks, take one lick the stick and, and-- no one is stick and three to drive it in and one on each side. And that's the way they went.

Gottlieb: Yeah. So he wasn't strictly a farmer?

Alfred B.: No, but mostly he was farm. He started to venturing out, you know.

Gottlieb: Do you have any idea about how old he was when he came up here?

Alfred B.: No, he was he was quite, quite young because I think when he died in 1933, I think he was around about 68 or something like that when he died. But he had to be young when he came.

Gottlieb: Um, do you remember him saying anything else about Virginia in the South about how things were down there aside from, uh, working on the railroad?

Alfred B.: No. Well, he never did talk much about that. No, he never was a man that always talked a whole lot about treatment or anything, he'd just move out when he didn't like anything.

Gottlieb: There was a big strike in Homestead in 1892.

Alfred B.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did he ever talk about that and--

Alfred B.: Oh, yes. He used to talk about how they-- how they charge those walls down there, you know, to keep the strikers out in the outside. Yeah, a lot of a lot of migration here at that time, too. You know, we had a-- that's where one of the big battles here was fought. Right on the Monongahela here, this river down here. Soldiers used to come up there in barges and everything. He will look-- search your history and you'll find that. It's called the Battle of Homestead?

Gottlieb: Yeah. Um, was he brought up on transportation? Anything like that, or did he come on his own.

Alfred B.: No, He came on his own. No, he wasn't. He didn't come on no transportation. Of course, there was quite a few people who came up here on transportation and everything.

Gottlieb: Um. Had somebody told him about Homestead or why did he decide to come to this part of, uh, the North?

Alfred B.: Well, you know how word go, as other way, how the word flies. You know, they hear of the mills and things and and better opportunities, you know, to work and at least raise a family, you know? Yes, indeed.

Gottlieb: Um, he never mentioned, you know, really how he decided to come up here and--

Alfred B.: No, only-- just for the better himself and family. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did he come ahead of his wife and children?

Alfred B.: Oh, yeah. He came and then he sent back for them. Yeah, he always. He always be the point, point, you know, the forerunner. And he see us because it would've been useless, him to bring a big family and no place to put them. And probably he wouldn't have liked it, you know, and he'd go back. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: But he made-- came and made arrangements about the family on up.

Gottlieb: Do you have any idea how long he was here before he brought his wife and children after him? Even a rough idea?

Alfred B.: No, I don't have any idea. But I know it wasn't-- wouldn't be too long.

Gottlieb: Did he go to work in the mill during the strike?

Alfred B.: Yeah, I think he did, because I used to hear him say how they-- the change in the mills and things because in his time and mine he said he used to have to charge them furnaces by hand. All everything was by manual work. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: And he used to tell me about them so therefore he must have been in there. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Um. Do you know what kind of job? What, what part of the mill he worked in and at what position?

Alfred B.: No, I don't. Because I know he lettered [??] greatly. He came out-- when he came out he was hired by the Munhall Borough in the Sanitation Department. There he worked until he passed.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Do you know what time he left the mill to take that job?

Alfred B.: No, I don't. But it was an early time, though I do remember that.

Gottlieb: He didn't work at the mill for very long.

Alfred B.: No, not too long. But far back as I can remember, when he was hired by the Munhall Borough, they put him foreman in there and that's where he was until he took a stroke on the job. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Was that some-- was that a job that you could get through, you know, political connections or something like that? A job like working for the borough?

Alfred B.: Well at that, at that time the Munhall Borough-- their employees, they weren't too much concerned mostly about uh, political stuff you know, because when you could, you could do the job, they would hire you. Not like now. Now it's all political, but--

Gottlieb: What kind of position did he have?

Alfred B.: He was over the Sanitation Department. Gottlieb: Oh, right you told me.

Gottlieb: They were collecting garbage. Alfred B.: Yeah. Mhm. Gottlieb: Uh, do you know what part of the uh, the uh, the town he lived in when he came here and brought his family.

Alfred B.: Homestead, here.

Gottlieb: Yeah, but what? What? You know, the address that he had there at first?

Alfred B.: No. Let me see. We used to live like-- we used to live in the ward. You know what it's called? The Second Ward. Then we, we moved back to, uh, to the Hill. We first lived up here on the hill.

Gottlieb: Mhm. What? What addresses were you raised at?

Alfred B.: Oh, no, I can't remember that one in the war. That was in Galway. We lived. But I do remember the one on Sixth. That was 318. Gottlieb: Sixth Avenue. Alfred B.: Mhm. Yeah.

Gottlieb: And later on you moved up here.

Alfred B.: Yeah. Well we-- at first we did live on the hill but he just moved you know, to better his condition you know.

Gottlieb: So he-- when he, when he first came here he lived on the hill. And then later he moved down to Sixth Avenue.

Alfred B.: Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Cause I'm usually I've heard the other way around. It seems to me it was the other way around. People usually first live down there and later when they got--

Alfred B.: No, I remember. Let me see. Moving from the hill about twice. Because each time he moved, he did better himself.

Gottlieb: How many children did your father and mother have?

Alfred B.: Well, about 13.

Gottlieb: And of those. 13, which are you?

Alfred B.: I'm the baby.

Gottlieb: You're the 13th. Alfred B.: I'm the baby. Gottlieb: When-- and when were you born?

Alfred B.: 1906. January the 13th. Only two of us live. I mean, three of us are living now. I have a brother in the Aspinwall Hospital. He's a soldier. First world brethren and my sister and myself.

Gottlieb: Do you have any rough idea how many children there were when he came up in 1892?

Alfred B.: No, but mostly all of his old family was when he'd come up. He brought them with him.

Gottlieb: By that you mean his brothers and sisters or anything like that? His parents or you mean his children?

Alfred B.: His children. Then later he brought my grandmother. I can remember her. I never did see my grandfathers

Gottlieb: Did you know her very well? Your grandmother?

Alfred B.: Oh, yeah. I got a good strapping from her many a time. I should know her. Yes, indeed.

Gottlieb: Did she ever used to talk about Virginia?

Alfred B.: No. Well, I'd tell you, they never did talk too much around us about hardship. They try to teach us the right way to go, you know, whether it be hard or easy. There never was anything to try to poison our minds or anything. A lot of people poison your mind. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: but regardless to how the things are, they always try to ride the waves.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Well, let me see if I figured this out right. Your father must have been born around 1865.

Alfred B.: Yes. He really like-- I do remember him saying, like, six months of being slave boy. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: So that was 65.

Gottlieb: Yeah. So your grandparents must have actually been slaves then. Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Uh huh. And just in that area of Virginia, just south of Roanoke.

Alfred B.: Yeah. Yeah. I heard him say that, like six months. He would have been a slave, well. And he was, uh-- he was born on July the 4th, 65.

Gottlieb: Uh, did he ever-- did he have any relatives up here when he came? Do you know?

Alfred B.: No.

Gottlieb: Did he ever bring-- did he ever-- did anyone in his family, like his brothers and sisters or uncles or aunts, ever follow him up here to Pennsylvania?

Alfred B.: Oh, yeah. Well, they, they came. They came later. His, his brother. Then he brought my, my grandmother, plus his family.

Gottlieb: Do you know if he was-- had been able to get any schooling in the South?

Alfred B.: No, not that I know of. But he could take care of the business, though. You know he had a good, uh, fair education.

Gottlieb: Did he ever used to go back to Virginia? That you were aware of?

Alfred B.: No, very little. Of course, my mother would go back more often than he did because her mother was there.

Gottlieb: Were there certain times of the year that she used to go back or would-- on, on, on what kind of occasion?

Alfred B.: Well, she'd go back on pleasure just to see, uh, see her mother. Sometimes she'd take me with her and, but she never did pick any certain time. Any time she made up her mind, she went.

Gottlieb: Do you think your father was able to, uh, uh, do better up here than he--

Alfred B.: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He did a whole lot better.

Gottlieb: Do you think he was able to, uh, earn enough money to keep his family in pretty good shape?

Alfred B.: Well he did do it.

Gottlieb: Yeah.

Alfred B.: Yeah, I believe he had more money then than I have now. Gottlieb: Is that right? Alfred B.: Yeah, because the dollar was a dollar then, you see. Yeah

Gottlieb: Did he. Did he ever used to have any other kind of work besides that being a foreman?

Alfred B.: No, no. He never did take up any other.

Gottlieb: Could you tell me what kind of place Homestead was back when you were growing up? Because I understand it's changed quite a bit from what it used to be.

Alfred B.: Well, uh, Homestead to me is just like the good old, old days as of now to me, because in Homestead, well, in a way of speaking, we rubbed shoulders together. All nationalities. We, we all played together. And in fact, some-- when I lived down the ward, we even visit each other and stay over night, ate from the same tables and everything. There was no strife between us. Mhm.

Gottlieb: All kinds of different nationalities lived down there?

Alfred B.: Yeah. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Do you remember any friends you had as a as a young boy down there who were who were White.

Alfred B.: Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Do you remember what nationalities they were? Could you recall that?

Alfred B.: Well some were from Ire-- Irish and the Slovaks and so I guess maybe we'll say a melting pot.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Did you ever pay particular attention to what nationality a person was?

Alfred B.: No, I never did come before me. I'm surprised that I didn't take up the language because I had plenty of time to do it. You know, they, they wanted to teach me, but I didn't pay no attention to it and now I wish I had.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. They used to speak it around their homes? Alfred B.: Huh? Gottlieb: They used to speak their own languages around their homes?

Alfred B.: yeah, yeah. They speak both English and their own language. Then they try to teach it to me. Well, a whole lot of the buddies and things, they took it up. They could speak it fluently.

Gottlieb: Some people have told me that Homestead, back around the time of the First World War and 1920s was a pretty wild place, you know?

Alfred B.: Oh, we wouldn't even have to go to New York then. We, we had fun until [coughs] that mill moved up in there. We always had for recreation and everything. We had places to go. Well, the same as Broadway in New York and the other place, we had a big high, like places and mostly then I like it for kids better because-- I had always had some kind of a program, for the youngsters and we never was out on the corners after that curfew rang. They enforced that which I wish they would do now.

Gottlieb: Yeah. What, what time did, did the curfew take effect?

Alfred B.: Ten o'clcok we had to be at home. We got two blasts, one about quarter to and the other to be on the hour at ten.

Gottlieb: You got-- I'm sorry. I didn't understand you. Two what? And--

Alfred B.: Two blasts. You know, the siren would blow. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred B.: And we caught on the street unescorted by an adult. We were asked questions and couldn't give them a direct answer. My parents would have to come and get us. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred B.: But if we had to go out by herself we had to have a note or something. Gottlieb: Hmm. Alfred B.: Which was much better. Then we-- but they gave us a nice recreation. We had our playgrounds, movies and everything like that. The community centers had boxing. Anything you want to do. All kind of sports and like that. You see, they look like they've got away away from that now. A nice police protection too, because we had beatman. It was such a thing as riding around in a car or something. Patrolmen all night long and as well as through the day.

Gottlieb: Were the policemen of all different nationalities.

Alfred B.: Yead. Homestead always had, had a mixed police force, so far as I know.

Gottlieb: Were there Black policemen? Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Who ran the center that you talked about, this community? Alfred B.: Well, far as I can remember--

Alfred B.: It was uh, well, it was mostly funded by Carnegie Steel, you know as well as a man by the name of Nelson, Reverend Nelson. And there was Charlie Betts. Maybe you've heard of him. He went back to the Hill District there. What was that kid? The club they had over there. It was in the Hill District. He and his brother, they were pretty-- he's, he's the, he's pretty well aged now. He's walking around and look like they were-- oh, Arthur got him. Arthur, right. Oh, yeah.

Gottlieb: But he's still living.

Alfred B.: Yeah, he's still living.

Gottlieb: His name was Charlie Betts?

Alfred B.: Yeah. Charlie Betts. I know if you've traveled through Pittsburgh, you can inquire, anybody will tell you about him. The Lo-- the Loendi club, I think it is on the Hill there. I think it's on Wiley. Uh huh. He-- until he got to the place, he couldn't carry on.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Um, and did Betts work for Carnegie Steel? Like [Alfred B.: Yeah] Nelson did.

Alfred B.: He was an assistant to Nelson there in the community center, you know.

Gottlieb: Did...did you go to school down in the ward? Did they have a school there?

Alfred B.: Yeah I Went to Second Ward, then I went to Fourth Ward. Mhm. You'd have to go to the school in what area you-- ward you moved into. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Were there quite a number of Black people living down there when you were growing up. Alfred B.: Oh yeah. Yeah. Gottlieb: But it, but you wouldn't say that it was a Black neighborhood or a ghetto or anything like that.

Alfred B.: No, no, no, no. It's just as I forestated, it was all mixed. Everybody lived together.

Gottlieb: Um. Perhaps you can tell me? I believe Mrs. Morton told me that your family used to take in boarders.

Alfred B.: Yeah. Yeah. Well, as the one woman named our house, was-- she named it the house by the wayside. My dad never did-- as far as my mother, too. They never would turn nobody away. They always would make a place for you if you was in need. And it was always a meal there at the table. Because he used to tell me, you know, I used to wonder when they used to say, you freely give, you can freely receive, you know. And that was one of his policies. He says, and says in-- being-- the scripture-- scripture says, it's better to give than to receive. I asked him what he meant by that. He says, Well, if you have enough for yourself, then have enough for somebody else. You will receive a blessing if you give it. And through that hard depression, he brought us through and I believe then we had more then, than we have now. Gottlieb: Is that right? Alfred B.: Yeah. Because it always seemed that the good Lord always provided a way that he always had something, never didn't want.

Gottlieb: Did-- was he able to keep his job through the Depression?

Alfred B.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Did your family used to get boarders from the mill?

Alfred B.: No, no, no. Just friends. You know that they knew that come by.

Gottlieb: Well, I was wondering if you remembered the time when many Black people were coming up to Homestead from the South, like during the First World War, when production was very high and a lot of, lot of people came from the South to, to Homestead.

Alfred B.: Oh, yeah. They, they, they would, they would travel. They'd send representatives through the side to bring those, bring the people up here if they want to work. That was such a break in strikes and everything. And they would, what do you call it, they migrate here, the representative would bring them and they'd have places for them. Before they left they know just how many they could board, be boarded. So they came here in droves like, you know.

Gottlieb: But your family didn't take any of these people?

Alfred B.: No, no they didn't. No, they didn't take in that. They came on their own initiative.

Gottlieb: Yeah. I meant that when these people were being brought up by the mill.

Alfred B.: No, we didn't take on boarders from the mill. No. Uh uh.

Gottlieb: It was just an occasional person who would come in.

Alfred B.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Do you have any memories of these? The men who came up around the time of the First World War and the 1920s? In particular do you remember anything about, about what kind of people they were? Did they make any kind of impression on the town coming in great numbers like like they did?

Alfred B.: Well, let's say to make an impression, I don't know. Because just like any place else that you go, you know they. Some wanted them and some didn't. You see, then some coming to a different place too, the environments were so much different. In fact, some of them took the advantage of it. You know what I mean? Otherwise.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Do you remember ever noticing any difference between the Black people who were native to Homestead and these people who were coming up from the South? Any kind of differences at all? Like the way they dress, the way they talk, the way they behave?

Alfred B.: Oh, yeah. It was... it was different. You know, you could tell that they were from the South, you know? Gottlieb: How? Alfred B.: By the, by the speech, you know, And just like afore stated, some of them took the advantage of the situation you know being here because some parts of the South you just did so certain things you know but here it was different. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Well could you, could you go into a little bit more detail there because that's what I'm interested in knowing about. How did these people act differently than the people who were-- who had been born here?

Alfred B.: Well, well, the people that had been born here, they-- just as I said, they'd-- we rubbed shoulders together and everything. But some of those fellows gee whiz. Well some Whites came to and man they, they, they some of them was on the bad side but not all of them. Now, you know, and you take any group of people, you find a bad apple in the barrel, you see. So that was just the reaction I had of them. Yeah. But we have some of them now in all kinds of races that I call lunatics, you see, and can't stand. I said he can't stand prosperity. That's it.

Gottlieb: Do you remember anything about the 1919 steel strike? Do you have any memories of that? You would have been fairly young then.

Alfred B.: Well, I was quite small. I was quite young then. Yeah. Yeah, I can remember some parts of it. I can remember when they brought the-- the, what we call the militia. They come in here, they they rode horseback and they was mounted. They took care of it, kept the place quiet. Otherwise the men and some, some of the men, they stayed in the mill, you know, they had bunks and everything for them. And some would come home and but they brought the militia in and, you know, keep the town in good shape.

Gottlieb: Do you remember now? You were, you were quite young at the time. You might not recollect. Do you remember whether or not generally Black people in Homestead supported the strikers or supported the company, generally speaking?

Alfred B.: Well, that's what I mean. They yeah, they supported it because why? I say they support it because they, they come from this side here and went in the mills. They broke the strike. Yeah. You see.

Gottlieb: But what about the, uh, people like your family who have been here for quite some time? How did they. How did they think about the strike?

Alfred B.: Well, they thought the strike was, was very good for what they was striking for, you see. In fact, I think I'm not sure, because I was small, you know, I think it was that union or something trying to get in. That's the greatness you know. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Do you remember any of the-- your friend's fathers being on strike at that time. That bring back any memories.

Alfred B.: Yeah, quite a few of them. My dad's friends worked in the mill here. Mhm. I was quite small then. I had some vague, you know, ideas of it because I was just a little kid running around and I'd see those men on horses with those great big nightsticks and side arms and everything. [Alfred B. laughs]

Gottlieb: Was there much violence in Homestead?

Alfred B.: No, no, no, no. No violence. Oh, you hear a fella or somebody getting in a big fight or killing, killing somebody or stabbing somebody. That was a big crime. But nowadays, gee whiz, any time you pick up the paper or listen to the news, that's all you hear. Like the other day, you remember hearing or reading about that girl stabbed the other girl?

Gottlieb: No, I don't think I saw it.

Alfred B.: Well, that was on the air, too. 18 years old. No. Talk about violence here. They'd curb that in a minute. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Was there any violence connected with this strike in 1919 that you can remember?

Alfred B.: No. No. Quite naturally, they had a few scrummages, but nothing to tell you. A big difference, you know? Because-- well, you couldn't stand no more-- I know, 4 or 5 in a group or something. Even on the corners, they always kept you moving, you see. So therefore, they didn't have the time to, you know, unite and come into any violence, of course they had scrummages though.

Gottlieb: How far through school did you go?

Alfred B.: Well, I, uh, I went to the high school and I graduated from the vocational school.

Gottlieb: Was there a vocational school in Homestead?

Alfred B.: Yeah. It's still here. Uh huh.

Alfred B.: Schwab. Schwab school? Yeah. [ed. note: Schwab Manual Training School]

Gottlieb: Did they teach you a trade there?

Alfred B.: Oh, yeah. Any trade you wanted. See, first we had to take up to two years of GIs. You have to call it General Industrial. And they took us through there. We went through each shop, you know, you know, had a taste of it. And then we'd make our own choice, you see.

Gottlieb: What, what, what line of work did you take up.

Alfred B.: Well, I took up-- I took up at that time-- which if I had it taken up earlier now I'd been better off. I took up as a machinist and at that time it was hardly a Black that could get a machine job, you see. But they asked me why did I want to take up machines? I said, Because I like it and I want and I want to. They couldn't refuse me of my of my choice. So I took up machinist and they gave me my basic training. Yeah

Gottlieb: And you were-- But you were never able to work in that?

Alfred B.: No. They wouldn't accept you-- a machinist. But now we do have Black machinist. But that's the times how the times have changed, you know. But I say I got my choice.

Gottlieb: Did you ever have any kind of part time jobs or odd jobs when you were going to school?

Alfred B.: Oh yeah. I used to go get a job in a mill. You know, I put my age up and I used to go to brickyards, you know, where they make brick and everything. Gottlieb: Down on Harbison-Walker. Alfred B.: Yeah. Harbison-Walker. And I worked in Rankin in the wire mill, you know.

Gottlieb: Would this be just during the summer?

Alfred B.: Yeah, during the summer. But they didn't know I was going to school. I put my age up every time I'd tell them, I always tell them I was going to leave when I was going to quit because I might want to come back again. They'd ask me where. Why would I want to quit? Because I was always a good worker. I stayed wherever they hired me. I said, Well, you never miss any days or anything, so why are you quitting? Well, I'd tell them I'm going away, you know, changing towns. That'd be my excuse. So when I come back. So when I got out of school and, you know, vacation time, I could go to them and ask and they said, oh, sure. They'd go back and look my record up. I always had a job when I come out of school. I wasn't no loafer. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Huh. Do you remember how old you were when you started taking these kind of summer jobs?

Alfred B.: Mhm. Well, let me see. I took jobs at an early age. Now I'm going to tell you, I had to put mine in someplace that even if, if it was possible, I could go back to them now. I'd have to remember what place because where to be that place that I put my age up or something. Well, I was quite young because a lot of them, my dad at the time, he didn't think I wouldn't make it. You know, I'd been so I was so young, but I was ambitious. Anything I set my head to do, I'd do it. I had to try to lick it. I would lick it. I wouldn't give up. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Um, did, did your parents want you to work at this age? They encouraged you to go out and find jobs?

Alfred B.: No, no, I wasn't pushed out. I went on my own. I figured if I could go out on my own, why should they take care of me? Because through my school terms they were buying my clothes and keeping me. Gottlieb: Mhm. Alfred B.: But why should I lay on them during the three month period when I could work and earn my own money?

Gottlieb: Did you in turn give them some of the money you had earned?

Alfred B.: Oh yeah, yeah. In fact I gave them most of my pay, but they didn't want to accept it. Gottlieb: They didn't? Alfred B.: No. They just want to take board or something. And I told them, No, just give me a little bit of spend. You see, as I said, a dollar was a dollar when I get out with my buddies. Well, all of us had some money.

Gottlieb: Did most of them do the same thing? Go to work during the summer? Most of your friends?

Alfred B.: Some of them, some, but not-- some of them spent their vacation as a vacation. Yeah, but I always sought work because I had my vacation when I was going to school. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Um, do you remember what kind of jobs they would give the boys your age when you went to someplace, let's say, like the mill here at the Homestead?

Alfred B.: Well, there at the Homestead at that time, they gave a boy a job, as-- they call them pull up boys. You know, they'd work the little levers. But when a first helper would tell him, he went to bring the door up so he could look in-- well, they had wicked holes, too. They could look through and when it's time to tap and they want to charge the furnace, instead of the first helper going over there, they had boys sitting there and he tell them which door to pull up. They call 'em pull up boys.

Gottlieb: Uh, huh. So you worked on an open hearth?

Alfred B.: Yeah, I worked. I didn't. I wasn't no pull up boy. I worked in the labor gang. Gottlieb: Oh. Alfred B.: yeah.

Gottlieb: So even at that young age, they would assign you to the-- to the labor gang, Because I've heard that's kind of heavy work.

Alfred B.: Oh, it is. Some parts of it was heavy, but they didn't tell you to kill yourself. You could kill yourself at anything, you know?

Gottlieb: Do you remember whether there were any parts of the Homestead works where there would only be Black people working? Other parts of the mill there would only be White people working?

Alfred B.: No, but some working in all the departments. But as I said, the higher up jobs they wasn't working that. No.

Gottlieb: What what about the labor gang that that you were assigned to? They did they mix White and Black there?

Alfred B.: Yeah. Yeah. The one I was in, we were mixed. Yeah.

Gottlieb: What kind of job would they give you if you went to a place like Harbison-Walker? Do you remember?

Alfred B.: Well, at that time, I ran the floor. What does that mean? Two boys would run the floor. We, we was given a task to do. Oh, how many thousand bricks. We had to put out about 2 or 3,000 bricks. And that was our task. There's two of us. And what I mean by running the floor, you see, we'd walk up the floor and see we had mould. The mould. We carried three bricks in it. Then we had a man and he was the moulder. He put the clay in the, in the mould and we'd walk the floor. And as I was going up, the other boy would be coming down just like that. We'd meet middle of the floor and we laid, you know, dumped a brick out on the floor. It was a hot floor. We had to run a hot floor. And that's where they cook the brick, like, then take them. Put them in the kilns. Gottlieb: I see. Alfred B.: For the finishing touch.

Gottlieb: So your job was just to carry these moulds and turn them out?

Alfred B.: Well, that was mixed too. A White boy and I worked together. He was my old school boy, too. He's. He's, he'd live around. Gottlieb: Oh yeah. Alfred B.: Mhm.

Gottlieb: Um. Do you remember how much those jobs used to pay?

Alfred B.: No, I couldn't tell you exactly amount right now. But whatever it was, it was it was a good pay. It was a good pay then, you know? Yeah.

Gottlieb: Do you remember what kind of job they gave you when you worked? When you went to Rankin and worked at the Wire Mill?

Alfred B.: Yeah, I worked on the nail machine that was making nails.

Gottlieb: Was that a job that they would give to young people your age at that time.

Alfred B.: Yeah. If they found you capable of doing it. Yeah, but mostly it was-- they looked for the heavyset men. I was just a little old skinny somebody. Yeah, but they, they watched me, though, and I kept up with some of those folks and one time we were eating lunch, and that fellow said, how old are you? I told him, I said, oh, I'm 21. And he said, I thought you were, said you're a hell of a man to be so small. We was carried them big wires. I was carrying them just like they were. I didn't call for no help, so he didn't know I was younger. But I said.

Gottlieb: What did you say you were carrying?

Alfred B.: Wire. You see they had spools like spindles, like when you'd have to take a roll of wire and put it over that spool and thread the machine with nails. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred B.: Here was made all different sized nails for wire fences, staples and everything like that. Gottlieb: Yeah. Hm.

Gottlieb: Uh, so this job at the Wire Mill you had just during the summer?

Alfred B.: Yeah it was a summer job, and, uh, I never did that. Mostly all my work was summer work. Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Did anybody. Did you ever know any people at the mill who helped you get jobs? Tell you about maybe some department hiring or something like that?

Alfred B.: No, no, no. Because I always made myself satisfied when I got a role at a nice job.

Gottlieb: Uh, how how would. How would a young person coming to do summer work get hired? Just go in the personnel office like anybody else?

Alfred B.: Well, they had an employment office. Yeah. You go there and they'd interview you. Well, at that time, you didn't have so much of an interview. They'd come, they'd come out and pick you out. And uh, write out what department they wish for you to go. You went in. He goes before the doctor and get get examined.

Gottlieb: Were you just lucky then, if you were in the personnel office to get picked out?

Alfred B.: Yeah. Yeah. Because it was all any number of people would be there.

Gottlieb: Mm hm. Well, what kind of work did you take up when you were finished with vocational school?

Alfred B.: Well, when I came out of-- came out of vocational school well my dad, he, he was ailing, you know. And I said, well-- I told him could he get me a job with him and he said, I'll see. I don't think he wanted me to go to work that much. And so he got, he finally got me a job. He told me I could come with him. And there I stayed until I did. I took over the family.

Gottlieb: And you were still working there?

Alfred B.: Yeah. No, I'm not working there now. I'm working for the Homestead Borough now.

Gottlieb: Same kind of work?

Alfred B.: No.

Gottlieb: Why? Why didn't he want you to come on that job with him?

Alfred B.: Well, he thought too, it was too much for me. At that time. You had. It was manual. It wasn't no machinery doing your work. You had to do that from the muscle. Well, he thought, you know, some of them old cans and things would be too rough for me. But as I before stated, I wouldn't let nothing lick me.

Gottlieb: Do you think anybody resented the fact that you got that job because you know your father was there?

Alfred B.: No, no, no, no.

Gottlieb: Were there all Black people working in the sanitation department at that time? Alfred B.: Yeah. Mm. Gottlieb: So how long did you stay there on that on the, on the-- Alfred B.: Munhall Borough?

Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: 33 years.

Gottlieb: You did. You spent most-- did you ever want to leave there and get another job? Did you ever think of doing that?

Alfred B.: No. No, I didn't. No another concern'd come in that's how I lost out there.

Gottlieb: Oh. They turned it over to private company.

Alfred B.: Yeah. And that's how I lost. Then I got a job over here in Homestead.

Gottlieb: Did you know anybody over here that helped you get hired or you just come down?

Alfred B.: Well. Well, there was a-- we had our Burgess their name by the name of Tommy Barrett. Maybe you've heard of him. No, he. He. He intercede for me to. Quite a few of them, I believe, spoke for me. But Tommy was a forerunner.

Gottlieb: Did your father own any of the homes that he had his family out here in Homestead? Alfred B.: No. No. Gottlieb: He was always renting?

Alfred B.: Always rented.

Gottlieb: Did he make that decision or did he just never really have enough money to buy a home?

Alfred B.: No, I don't know whether he made that decision or whether he just had and didn't have enough money or not. Cause the family's very large, you know, and taking it and then. Well, I don't know. But I do know he never did attempt to buy no property.

Gottlieb: How long did you stay at your parents house? Living at your parents house?

Alfred B.: Always did. Never did move out from them. All the rest moved out, you know. But I said I was going to stick with them.

Gottlieb: To help them out when they got old.

Alfred B.: Yeah. Yeah, I buried both of them.

Gottlieb: Were they buried up here or did they take them back to Virginia?

Alfred B.: No. Buried here.

Gottlieb: And the place, the address where they died. Is that this address here?

Alfred B.: No, my dad, he died when we lived on Sixth. Both of them. 318. That was the only house within that block between Ann and McClure Street. Right on the railroad. Gottlieb: Yeah, well. Alfred B.: that's the reason this woman called it the house, by the way. By the roadside. Uh huh. She's a very lovable woman.

Gottlieb: What's her name?

Alfred B.: Indiana James.

Gottlieb: Oh, yeah I've heard of her.

Alfred B.: Yes. She's a lovable woman. She's another one in kind of. She'll give you a right arm if she can to help you.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Uh, good. Maybe I should write to her because I've been-- She's been recommended to me as a person who could, you know, tell them about the church. And, um. Were you married when your parents died? Had you been gotten married by that time?

Alfred B.: I got married by the following year, after my dad. No, I got married in the same year my daddy died.

Gottlieb: 1933.

Alfred B.: Yeah. Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Was your wife born and raised in Homestead like yourself?

Alfred B.: No. Charleston, West Virginia.

Gottlieb: Had she been in Homestead for a long time or had she come up recently when you married her?

Alfred B.: Not too long, no, not too long.

Gottlieb: And did you stay there on Sixth Avenue after your parents died? Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Just took the house over.

Alfred B.: I took over.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me the other places you've lived in Homestead since then? Since you left Sixth Avenue?

Alfred B.: Well, when I left Sixth Avenue, I moved to, uh, back to the hill. Joseph Street.

Gottlieb: In Pittsburgh? You mean?

Alfred B.: No in Homestead.

Gottlieb: Yeah, okay.

Alfred B.: Uh, what I mean by the hill. See, we call that the lower part. Gottlieb: Right. Alfred B.: Because the other part I don't know-- from Joseph Street there I stayed until I got here.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Did you buy the house on Joseph Street?

Alfred B.: No, I rent it.

Gottlieb: And this house? Do you own this?

Alfred B.: We own it. Uh huh.

Gottlieb: Was there any particular reason why you decided to move from Joseph Street here? Did you need more room or?

Alfred B.: I need more room and better living conditions. Yeah. Then see there. Up there. There's people lived up overhead too.

Gottlieb: Oh. So you didn't have the entire building?

Alfred B.: No, it was first and second floor. You know, partner, [Gottlieb: how--] Here you can just do whatever I want and nobody annoy me. And I don't annoy anybody else. You see, kids get around here, they want to play the jukeboxes and things high as they can play them to see if nobody [??].

Gottlieb: Uh, did you move from Sixth Avenue when they tore down the lower part of Homestead? Is that when you moved up to Joseph Street? Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: That was about 1941? Alfred B.: Yeah, something like that.

Gottlieb: And how long have you lived here?

Alfred B.: Here, I've been in here about, I think it's about four years. 4 or 5 years.

Gottlieb: Yeah. That's not too long then. How many children-- [tape ends]