B., Benjamin L., November 30, 1973, tape 2, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: Did you know them as a, as a young man?

Benjamin B.: We grew up together. We grew up together. Sure. Grew up together. Gottlieb: How did it come to be that you all came up here together? Benjamin B.: Well, two of us come one month and a couple of monthsm two more came, you know, another came, that make three. Yeah. We three didn't come the same day, same week or month. Yeah.

Gottlieb: You-- had you all left South Carolina together, gone up to Wilmington or-- or two of you at least?

Benjamin B.: Two of us went to Wilmington.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. How did you-- Did you make the choice to move about the same time together, or did you make it together?

Benjamin B.: Me and him? Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamin B.: Because why he-- This particular fella, Wilkin Nelson. He had a cousin in Wilmington. Yeah, no, aunt in Wilmington. Well, the other fella didn't. Yeah. So we went there and I forgot now where he went. Anyhow, we got together. Yeah. He come up a month later. Pittsburgh. I mean, to Homestead.

Gottlieb: Are any of these men still around here? Or have they moved, have they moved on?

Benjamin B.: Dead. No. One of them, Wilkin, one I was talkin' about, he's down in Durham, North Carolina.

Gottlieb: Did they, did a lot of those other people from South Carolina settle down here like you did or did most of them go off--

Benjamin B.: Go different places. Different places. Yeah. Do you all it in a place like that.

Gottlieb: Were they staying at Mrs., Mrs. Carpenter's with you when you first came to--

Benjamin B.: Two of us stayed, but the other fellas stayed right up the street from us. Yeah, the three of us. You know, the other side of the street was too crowded and they took him but four doors up the street from us, you know. You know.

Gottlieb: All that part of town is gone now, but. Benjamin B.: Yeah, gone. Gottlieb: Do you remember when they started to tear it down?

Benjamin B.: Yeah. Believe, end of the war. I came down end of the war, I say at least five. Every time I been there.

Benjamin B.: That's with, all that place down there must be new mills. New bridge was-- wasn't there? You know, through the mill like most of them. Most days, you know. Check it out. Third Avenue and _____[??]. But the mills are all of that now. I had build that down with building pressure. They go by the mill so I retire, I remember one [??].

Gottlieb: Did, uh-- did people who lived up in this part of town, used to-- used to look down on people who lived down in the ward?

Benjamin B.: Lot of 'em. Lot of 'em. Many of 'em did, lot of 'em. Gottlieb: There was never any particular end to that?

Benjamin B.: No, no, there was no trouble, you know. Just like they was a little better that way. Yeah. That's-- and that's any part of the country now.

Gottlieb: Um, was it everybody that--?

Benjamin B.: And I mean that, the white and black. Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamin B.: Yeah. I knew that I was in. Yep.

Gottlieb: Were there any certain parts of Homestead where-- that were kind of segregated places for Black people to live when you came up here? Benjamin B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: There were?

Benjamin B.: Yeah, well.

Benjamin B.: Was-- Not too many Black living up in this part of town. A few, but not too many. But. Most of them was down below. Course, lot of the white down there. Lot of them down, whites down there with Blacks. People up here kind of look down on them. White and brown. Tell it like it is, white and Black. But there was more of them than there is Black.

Gottlieb: Was it everybody's ambition that live down the ward, to come up here sometime?

Benjamin B.: Not too much. Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamin B.: But see, they-- got white and Black. They go down at night. Daylight, they don't loaf down there. Go night, at night, you know. Roam around. See? Like daylight they up here. Just it, you know. Yeah. You know, but they couldn't fool us, you know? You know, we know. Sleeping around, you know. Yeah.

Gottlieb: There was a lot of it going on down in the ward at night.

Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed. That's why they come down there. Yeah, that's why they come down.

Gottlieb: Uh, now I remember a couple of things I wanted to talk to you about. Do you remember the-- The recreation center that Nelson was in charge of that that the company built? They called it a-- Benjamin B.: Community.

Benjamin B.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Fifth Avenue? Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamin B.: Sure.

Gottlieb: Did they-- did-- Did many people used to hang out around there?

Benjamin B.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, indeed. Yeah, I'm for one. Yeah.

Gottlieb: What, what kind of things would-- would they have for, uh--

Benjamin B.: Well, uh, boxing, playing pool, checkers and whatnot, you know, that was going on down there. Yeah. Then you have that, yeah.

Gottlieb: Was that-- Was that center just for Black men? Was it-- Or did white men come there, too?

Benjamin B.: No, was, they had two, now. They had one for the white. One for the Black. Yeah. Gottlieb: How long did that last? Benjamin B.: Not too long after-- After--

Benjamin B.: Christmas. I came down and-- at the mill and all that. Throw it out. Gottlieb: So that's when it all--

Gottlieb: So you didn't have any white men coming through the--

Benjamin B.: No, not, you know, because we were not.

Gottlieb: You-- Can you tell me about the other kinds of work that Nelson would do? He was in charge of this center. He would-- he would also be-- he would also be in charge of transportation.

Benjamin B.: Right.

Gottlieb: Did he have any other kinds of jobs?

Benjamin B.: [simultaneous talking] Not that I knew of. No. Other than preach.

Gottlieb: Did-- Did the people like him? Do people-- Benjamin B.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, indeed.

Gottlieb: Respect him? Benjamin B.: Yeah, they respected him.

Gottlieb: Did they look to him for help when they needed help?

Benjamin B.: Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

Gottlieb: Um. You used to go watch the Homestead Grays?

Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Lost 15 men, oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Gottlieb: Did you like sports?

Benjamin B.: From then, I like it from when I was down home, baseball, football and all that. I wasn't about it. But baseball, I grew up under that. Yeah, I played-- played ball up here since I've been up here on the team called the Red Legs, colored fellas organize a team. I played ball up here.

Gottlieb: Did they have-- did they have baseball games between different departments of the mill?

Benjamin B.: No, far as I don't know. Gottlieb: Did they have anything organized like that? Benjamin B.: No. Nothing I know of. Gottlieb: Can you tell me something about the baseball

Gottlieb: team that you played on, how-- how it was organized and wo played on it?

Benjamin B.: Oh, well, now, this was-- fella by the name of Timothy Williams. Who-- preacher after that. He had organized a team called the Homestead Red Legs.

Gottlieb: Was that during the same time that the Grays were? Benjamin B.: Yep, during the same time.

Gottlieb: Did you use to play other teams?

Benjamin B.: No, just only one.

Gottlieb: So you wouldn't go to other places like Braddock or someplace to play a team there?

Benjamin B.: Yeah. Yeah, we travel. Oh, that's what you mean? Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamin B.: Yeah, we. We wasn't that up, you know, but in that category, all in our category. Yeah. We went around. Oh yeah. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Were these-- were these teams made up just of Black men?

Benjamin B.: Yeah. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Do they, do they have--

Benjamin B.: They have Black men, yeah. But we play white. You know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gottlieb: Did they-- Do they have-- Well, let me ask you this. These weren't any kind of semi-pro teams or anything. Benjamin B.: No, no. Gottlieb: You didn't play for money.

Benjamin B.: Sandlot. No. Sandlot.

Gottlieb: Just did it for fun. Benjamin B.: Yeah, that's right.

Gottlieb: Um. And did they have teams in all the different towns around here? Benjamin B.: Yeah.

Benjamin B.: Rankin, Braddock, Munhall, right across the street there. Munhall. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Gottlieb: Do you remember any-- any of the other men who used to play on the Red Leg?

Benjamin B.: Well, they all of them dead. Yep. All of them dead. Yep.

Gottlieb: When did-- you have regular time to got together to practice play games? Benjamin B.: Mhm. Mhm.

Benjamin B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Can you tell me about what--

Gottlieb: Like, what days? I mean, this kind of details--

Benjamin B.: Well, sometimes when we off practice, maybe right now, in the evening, something like that. We practice quite a bit _______[??] Yeah.

Gottlieb: Was there a place across the river before they built the bridge where there were baseball fields? Walter Harris-- You know Walter Harris. He told me there was-- that when they built the bridge, they filled in a lot of land over there and there. But before they had done that, they used to be places over there where you could play-- play ball.

Benjamin B.: It was. It was. I wasn't playing then, but I remember.

Gottlieb: You know, when you would go to the Grays game, uh, the, a whole bunch of people would go together> Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed. Gottlieb: Can you tell me what it is, was it like a big game, or--?

Benjamin B.: Yes. When Homestead Grays gonna play the Baltimore Black Sox and different. Oh, yeah-- Yes, sir. Gottlieb: Can you tell me, like, where-- where the games were played and-- Benjamin B.: Forbes Field. Gottlieb: They were?

Benjamin B.: Forbes Field.

Gottlieb: Did you used to take food with you and to settle into the afternoon?

Benjamin B.: No. No. We didn't do that. You go, after the game, we go. Just so, it's just like you're doing now. You know, go around popping up like that. They didn't do that then, you know? Yeah, but you didn't get nothing.

Gottlieb: Did Black people come to watch those games?

Benjamin B.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Gottlieb: Yeah, the Grays are a good team. Benjamin B.: They were good. Yes, sir. I'm tell you, they were tough. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Did a lot

Gottlieb: of Black people from Homestead used to follow them?

Benjamin B.: [simultaneous talking] Yes, indeed. Yeah. Gottlieb: So it was a big thing to do, huh? Benjamin B.: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Why do you-- why do you figure that that Homestead of all the different places in the United States was the place that was more or less the capital of Black baseball?

Benjamin B.: Well now I don't know. I really don't know. No. Because, of course it might have been lot of 'em but you know, after I settled down, I quit running, you know, state to state. I quit running and probably was going the same way in other places. But, you know, I didn't participate in it because I was a rambler. So I-- you know, when you're traveling, you know. Yeah. Didn't settle down to do nothing, you know, but work, work. Go out and get some money and I'm gone.

Gottlieb: 'Cause it's my impression that Homestead was a little bit different from lots of other places and that it did have this, you know, a very good baseball team. Benjamin B.: [simultaneous talking] That's right. Gottlieb: Had a lot of good Black jazz musicians.

Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed. That's right.

Gottlieb: So I just wonderin' why it was Homestead and not--

Benjamin B.: Well, they tell me way, way back yonder, Homestead was named out of a family. Old man Homestead. That was his name then. Gottlieb: Oh yeah? Benjamin B.: Yeah, that's what I learned that way back. Just like Scranton. Scranton. Name after the Scrantons. You know, it used to be Governor Scranton. They tell me Scranton name after that family. Well, they tell me Homestead same way. And I was told that, you know, way back. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Well. I really. I really can't think of anything else to ask you about. Are there any things that have come to your mind that-- while we've been talking that I haven't touched on yet with my questions, anything that you remember? Anything that you can think that you used to do back then in that time that you think might be helpful to me? Anything about-- anything about the job, you do that, or what it was like to work in the mill?

Benjamin B.: Well, someplace there in the mill was a little bit discrimination, but not many. Not many. So few ain't even gonna talk about.

Gottlieb: Did you know about what would be going on in different parts of the mill if you were in open hearth?

Benjamin B.: No.

Gottlieb: Just like people were workin' in completely different place.

Benjamin B.: Right. Right. And I wasn't interested. They tell me what they do and I tell them what I do. You know, talking, you know? Yeah.

Gottlieb: Did most of the friends you had in the first years after you came up, were most of them also working in open hearth?

Benjamin B.: No, no. Spannin' different parts of the mill. Different parts of the mill. Gottlieb: Do you remember which parts? Benjamin B.: Plate mill, general labor and whatnot. Yeah, some janitor, you know.

Gottlieb: So they-- So when they bring people up on transportation, they just put them wherever they're needed?

Benjamin B.: Where they need them. That's the way it was, wherever they need them. Yeah, that's the way it was. Yeah. Spread them out, you know.

Gottlieb: Were there lots of Black men though, being employed in-- in open hearth?

Benjamin B.: Yeah. Sure. Oh yeah.

Gottlieb: Do you remember-- do you remember were there-- when you were-- when you first came up here and first working in the mill. Were there men-- were there Black men who had the very highly skilled positions in the mill? Benjamin B.: Of course. Yeah. Plate. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Benjamin B.: They had to try to get me down the leader, yeah. That's what they want.

Gottlieb: And they had those jobs when you first came on?

Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed.

Gottlieb: Had they been working-- Had those men working here a long time? Benjamin B.: Yeah.

Benjamin B.: You had to get them jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Had to work up to it. Gottlieb: Did you know any

Gottlieb: other men personally who had jobs here like roller or ______[??] or--

Benjamin B.: Yes, indeed. Shearman, whatnot. One of my friends livin' now. Gottlieb: You think __[??] want to? Benjamin B.: That's right. That's right. You know, you must have been there. Gottlieb: Yeah, I talked to him. Benjamin B.: Yeah, yeah. He's one of them. Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamin B.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: So he had been there for a pretty long time. Benjamin B.: Yeah.

Benjamin B.: Yeah. He's a personal friend of mine. Yeah. Gottlieb: He's a nice man too. Benjamin B.: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Well, uh, I think that, uh. I'll just shut the machine off now, if, uh. If you-- If you think of anything more that-- That you--

Benjamin B.: I think we've about covered everything. My recollection, I think we just think about it. My memory seemed to have moved bright today. And it probably this is business, you know, probably. I'm thinking more, you know, a whole lot of time, you know, show off what you know. But I enjoyed it very much.