B., Benjamin L., November 30, 1973, tape 1, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: At 241 East 18th Avenue, Homestead, Pennsylvania. Recorded on November 26th, 1973. At Mr. Gator's home.

Benjamin B.: Summerton, South Carolina. Clarendon County. Gottlieb: That's where you're born? Benjamn B.: [unintelligible]

Benjamn B.: I raised up down there. 1921 when I left, then I came up. Gottlieb: Um. Okay. Benjamn B.: I no worry. I came up to work to have something, I support them if I could, better than I could around the year '21. We ____[??] the church. I tell you what that mean, come down a way, got to go to ____[??] don't leave. I went down, Father said if you go,

Benjamn B.: Mine is on. But the main thing you wanted to do is take God with you. Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamn B.: I said, Mama, you give up me to go to every get. You ain't got to kids yet. There was four children. I was the oldest boy. [unintelligible]

Benjamn B.: 1923. Gottlieb: Can you tell us when you were born? I don't think--

Benjamn B.: October the 24th 1903.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me something about your parents? What kind of work they did? Benjamn B.: Farm. Gottlieb: They farmed down there? Can you tell me what kind of farm they had?

Benjamn B.: Cotton, cotton, corn and anything that you could raise on the farm down in that part of the country well you had to raise it. Gottlieb: Was your father-- Benjamn B.: He was a pig farmer, either.

Benjamn B.: Was the tenant of another, or did he have his farm? Benjamn B.: No. He rent.

Gottlieb: Well, can you tell me something about your education or the kind of jobs you had when you were a young man?

Benjamn B.: Well, down there at that time, we didn't have much chance of going to school. I just enter the fifth grade and I couldn't go to work. [unintelligible] So basically ________[??] I was in sixth grade, I had enough. [unintelligible]

Benjamn B.: Background. What I want to know.

Gottlieb: Did you have to help your parents on the farm growing up?

Benjamn B.: Yeah. Yeah, that's why I quit school. Gottlieb: Right. Benjamn B.: Plow.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Do you remember all the different kind of jobs that you'd had to do on the farm? Benjamn B.: Well.

Benjamn B.: Summer, summertime we're planting. Well, we was planting. I went to school, but after planting had to work on the farm. Bout ten months food and had to plow and cultivate the crops and September, last September, was the harvest. Harvesting and harvesting. Gottlieb: Yeah, that's quite a work. Benjamn B.: Quite a bit too. Get you, get you down there.

Gottlieb: What would happen after the crop was in? Was there as much activity?

Benjamn B.: Oh, you got to can it. 'Cause we, a garden, a farm stand there. Yeah. Then we raise, plow it and [unintelligible] and go to the range and increase.

Gottlieb: Um. So did you work at any other kinds of jobs? Were you employed?

Benjamn B.: Yes, I worked at the-- same. 19. And. The boat came down, we pull the port in there. We draw the cotton and not worry about that. We store the cotton and then have no alternative. He didn't to to load it people. So I asked people to let me go back to the here and said, that'll help a little bit because. I don't see where you want to pull out and what I work in the sawmill. I bring my paper, you give me what you want me to have out of it.

Benjamn B.: And he said, Well, you want to work for me? It's hard work. I said, I don't mind.

Benjamn B.: And _________[??] and he said he get to it and bring it to him with the home and whatever he want to want me to help, he give it to me. So a very little story. When I became 21, they asked me, says, I never get it. And the last two, when they kitchen, you know, and hand it back to me. What's going on? No, I ain't mad at me. I ain't done nothing. In the house. I heard a man holler so I _____[??] back and I guess we talked it over, you know, and that's a subject. And not looking for him. You, whatever you want. And you are supposed to take your-- your show-- your money and use whatever you want you to have. You give it to me instead of me taking and giving you what I want you to have out of you if you want. Now you're gone. You're 21. So you give me what you want me to have and you keep me up. And that was a job. Now what? How much you give him? I didn't know. I said well, Pop, I don't know. He said, All right, I tell you what you do. Give me what you think I ought to have. It's not enough, I tell you, it's too much, I'll tell you. And I give you too much. Only a couple dollars. It wasn't going, even a big pay. He said this is enough, you to give me. I want to please and give you money, 'cause got to stop, to the right there. And he give it back to me if you want to give it to him. He gave it back to me and. I think. But that what happened from then on. I must tell you the truth. I came up there in 1923. First pay down in the mill. You could take your board and board out, you know. You didn't see that money. My first pay, split pay, was $18. And I know what conditions Pop done had on the farm. And boy, we were down there. My first page, I sent him to ______[??]. 1923. You put me through this. And from then until December.

Benjamn B.: 15th, no, December 20th. So you go home for Christmas. $20 to $25 every pay day. Every pay day. So the postmaster, the Pop was a friend, you know, small town friends. And he went to the left kitchen window. He said, Paul. I said Paul, that's what he called him, Pop was in. All that would. He said, like it here? Yeah, he said. How did you raise that boy? How did you raise him. Let me tell you something. That group of boys went away from here. And you and your boys. I know every one of 'em. No one can read it down here. And your child the only one sending money to their parents. And I know because I'm the postmaster and I know them. Said your child the only sending money to you down through the years. How did you raise him? He said, Well, I did the best I could. He said, you are blessed, that he the only one to, every money ought to come to this post office. I know them. He said, Why them Black? I know them because I'm down there, small town. And he said, I just can't understand it. He said, Well, he did what he promised. I didn't want him to go, but I give up for him to go. But he did what he thought, he been payin' off. The mother look and said, son, don't send your Poppa so much money for them. You got 2 and $300 floatin' in his pocket down here and just play the real roaster, you know, mother of them Baptist. Anything happen, you can come home. That's right. I tell moms, don't worry, my railroad fare is in the post office and move aside. I'm doing what I'm doing.

Benjamn B.: Deacons of the church, men coming in and asking Poppa for a quarter of the church on a Sunday, and he got all that money floating around in his pocket. And so he think he's rich. I said, Mom, I'm doing what I born to do. All right. When you come home, you don't have to do a thing, bring your meal to your bed if you want to. And if you feel cold in the night, don't try to get up so your papa will get up and check it, you know? And it happened wintertime. Round about 2, 3:00 in the morning. I come in around 12 or 1:00, you know, tapping my feet down the cover. Call my mother quick. Call my mother quick, here. Put on your boy's feet be kind of cold. And he about jumped, under the cover, tapping my feet. And that's the way it was. That's the way it was. I ain't going to tell no lie. Gottlieb: Yeah, were your parents able to keep the farm then? Benjamn B.: Yeah, yeah. They kept, the boarders on the last, the last two years I think for regulation. I think two years. And after that they went all the way. Gottlieb: Drought [??] gon' hit that part of the country by 1921? By 19? Benjamn B.: Hits around, hits about 21. I was 21. And this round about 1922 because I left in 23. Yeah. Yeah. And they were terrible. Oh, my goodness. Ten acres of cotton. You might get two bales. Gottlieb: What would be a normal-- Benjamn B.: Normal be a bale an acre. Gottlieb: Okay. Benjamn B.: Yeah. Sometimes some people see good, good land. Lots's good. They get a bale on the half acre. And that's a big draw. Ten acres in one day? Yeah.

Gottlieb: Were there a lot of white cotton farmers, in that part of the-- That part of--

Benjamn B.: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of white farmers. But you had the Negroes working for them, you know. Yeah, they're working for them. Just like how we worked with farming because I've never done it. I. We-- they rent. You know, I don't mind going to work, but they're going to pay your salary. Work. It looks like you work in a sawmill. Yeah. Not no monster stuff. I know. I'm not going to be that. Don't even ask me, you know? You said no, so he allowed me to go to sawmill to work. Yeah. Yeah, but it's a lot of big farmers down there. Had Negroes working for them. Yeah, they-- they do goo, good though. Yeah. Gottlieb: Were there also small white farmers, like had farms beside the mill down there? Benjamn B.: Bigger farm. Gottlieb: Bigger. Benjamn B.: The white farm. Yeah. Yeah. Bigger. Five, six, seven, eight horse farm.

Gottlieb: Do you remember whether many white people had to leave? Out of the South, the same time that Black people--

Benjamn B.: Lots of them. Youngsters like I was. I don't know. I don't have to work. I have nothing to do. As I said, you asked me what my position at the sawmill. Well, fellas, bring the logs in on the cart and drop them on this day as you call it. And after dropping them, pull the cart off and I pull them down with my hook and roll them down to the fella who's going to put them. You put one log in the cab that's down there and bring them down to him. He doesn't get it and all. Go on the cab and destroy it from the carriage up and down, cutting his lumber, as you know, size wanted. And if my job was to fly him below so he goes up the but too near to my back house there I would have bring them logs down they roll them on, rolling. It wasn't just at the ground. We got a log putting out. Got to roll them on and I bring them down to him. Not too close because, you know, and I supply him and he wouldn't go so far to get them. Yeah, that's my job.

Gottlieb: Were there-- were there Black and white men working there?

Benjamn B.: No, no, no. All Black.

Gottlieb: They were just all Black? Benjamn B.: Mhm. Gottlieb: So was that, was that a job that many Black people who, who had farms would be, when they work sawmill there, would be?

Benjamn B.: Yep. Yep. Gottlieb: Was it-- Benjamn B.: The sawmill owned by the white man? Yeah, he owned it. Yeah, but he was working for him. But he gets power, you know?

Gottlieb: Um, was it pretty close to your home?

Benjamn B.: Two mile. Two mile.

Gottlieb: So could you tell me how it was that you came up to Pittsburgh area rather than going to some other part of the country when you got--

Benjamn B.: My choice. Gottlieb: Yeah. How'd you tell what--

Benjamn B.: Well, in reading, you know, I just really choose to come North. Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamn B.: Instead of going Deep South, we choose to come North. Gottlieb: Right. Benjamn B.: And we read about salary and whatnot. More money anyhow. So that's what we want.

Gottlieb: So can you tell me just about how-- how you came, what transportation you got?

Benjamn B.: All right. First, a group of us went to Wilmington, North Carolina, worked there-- Uh, let's see. January and February, worked two months in the fertilizer factory. And we keep on reading, fellas, coming from up here and telling us about how they worked up here in a steel mill and whatnot and save our money. And we left Wilmington, North Carolina, and came to Richmond, Richmond, Virginia, and got transportation. Got transportation from Richmond here. Gottlieb: What kind of work did you say you were doing in Wilmington? Benjamn B.: Fertilizer factory.

Gottlieb: So you were you boarding there at that time? Benjamn B.: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gottlieb: So can you tell me about your trip up to here, and who _____[??] and did you come into Homestead or come to Pittsburgh?

Benjamn B.: Come straight to Homestead from-- from Richmond straight into Homestead right down through the middle and let off, they let us off in the mill, take us up in the mill and brought us to the cafeteria. And we all say we got, we left around 7:00 that evening and got in there around 7:00 next morning. All of us got off and get our breakfast and went to the employment office, got examined. Then they went to different, somebody take you to different places. Where they going to board at? And me-- and me and my buddy, two of us got up on Sixth Avenue and, and took some, took some. Downtown, you know, just different area, you know, but we have to stop in Homestead. But the job here in Homestead. Yeah. We started about, you know, different places. Gottlieb: How many were there? All in all. Benjamn B.: Oh, I couldn't count them, but I can't do that. I couldn't count down by one. But the four of us from my home. But different-- it was different, they line up there. Yeah. Gottlieb: So there were quite a few of you coming in.

Benjamn B.: Yeah. For a lot of them, I didn't know where they were from. They part of the _____[??].

Gottlieb: Was there a man named Reverend Nelson?

Benjamn B.: Yeah, that's the one.

Gottlieb: Was he the one, then--

Benjamn B.: He was the one, 'cause, uh. He tell my buddy. I was the smallest one. He said now, that boy ain't 21 years old. I never forget it. I say, oh, yes sir, said, called him Reverend Nelson. But you can call me Mr. Nelson, whatever you want. He said Reverend, he is 21. He swear on his father and mother, kid, he's 21. And I tell you, he can work to, to work the sawmill and Reverend Nelson heardabout a sawmill, how hard that would be. Say, that's what we're doing, we work the sawmill a while and come up with a lot of facts and and we came here so he's 21. He look at me. Say, well. What's your name? He said, Nelson. Said, that's my name. Nothing. He said, well, Nelson, I'm going to take your word for it. He's mighty small to be 21. I took your word for it. All right. Sign me up. Sign us up. Yeah. Gottlieb: What was that down in Richmond? Benjamn B.: In Richmond. He brought me up, we left there 7:00, we got there, 3:00 in the evening.

Benjamn B.: And we board overnight, and we were told that, we went to Richmond to find other jobs. We didn't know anything about transportation. We didn't know until we got there and talking to others. And they said, oh, sure, I know what's going on here. So you're going to Pittsburgh. So they call it Pittsburgh then, the big mill there in Pittsburgh. And steel plant. So we applied. You see.

Benjamn B.: The employment office is open from 7 to 7. During the day. We there, got a room and we got to make do. When we got down the employment office, they sign us up. Sign us up in the city. I'll be right at the station. This officer will. Seven o'clock.

Benjamn B.: Get-- a little before that because you leave around seven. That's when you do, go down there. He said, you got a job. Don't worry about that. Said, be here. Gottlieb: Was Nelson the man who met you at Homestead when the train came in? Benjamn B.: Nelson, the man, he met us-- No, first, take it, they had a scout, you know, after he let us off in the mill and to the cafeteria to eat. He met us at the employment office. Yeah, those people brought us out of the mill to the employment office. And we met Nelson there again. Yeah. Then he went back to, Richmond, you know, because he got off here.

Gottlieb: Every time there would be workers from the South coming up here, he would make the trip with them?

Benjamn B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: I see.

Benjamn B.: No, wait a minute. I think I'm wrong. I think I'm wrong. He sent them and he stayed down because I think transport run every week or something like that, every two weeks, something like that. Now, that's what, I think, that's what it was.

Gottlieb: So there would be somebody else in the employment. Benjamn B.: That's right. That's right. Gottlieb: They make you fill out forms and that kind of. Benjamn B.: Yeah. Yeah.

Gottlieb: Mhm. Do you remember the people you were boarding with on Sixth Street?

Benjamn B.: Irene Carpenter. She was a widow and [unintelligible] everybody-- the two of us that had been, because it was filled up. So we was left with, you know, lucky we met a lot of friends there.

Gottlieb: Was she a Black woman? Benjamn B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Um, how many other people were there staying at-- Mrs. Carpenter's?

Benjamn B.: Uh, let's see. In the house-- two bedrooms. Gottlieb: So would you eat your meals there?

Benjamn B.: Yep. Room and board. Eight dollars a week. Gottlieb: That'd be taken out of your check? Benjamn B.: Out of my check. I don't see that money. What I get in that check is mine.

Gottlieb: Well can you tell me something about the-- the jobs you had when you first started working down at the mill?

Benjamn B.: At the very beginning.

Gottlieb: Yeah. Did you build the, uh, new mill at the time?

Benjamn B.: Uh-uh. No.

Benjamn B.: You see, this part of the mill, we was in the open hearth. You can see them. We was in the labor part, the labor part. You know, was not general labor part because the general labor and this is part of the mill

Gottlieb: So what was it actually that you had to do?

Benjamn B.: Well, I got manganese, it's called manganese and whatnot, whether we need it. You know, in that era, we did it.

Gottlieb: Did you have a straw box [??] that you used? Benjamn B.: Yep.

Benjamn B.: They call him pusher then. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Why did they call them pusher?

Benjamn B.: Well, that's. That's.

Gottlieb: Was he a Black man? Person working beside of you?

Benjamn B.: Pusher why I mentioned was Black.

Gottlieb: How many other men would be working in a gang?

Benjamn B.: Oh. Four. Six. Sometimes seven.

Gottlieb: When you started working at the mill, did they have the eight hour shift or were they still--

Benjamn B.: [simultaneous talking] No. Got eight hour shifts in May. 1923. [unintelligible] Yeah. Round May, I think. 1923. Got the eight hour.

Gottlieb: Did that make a big difference? Benjamn B.: Yes, it made a big difference. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: Uh, did you stay on the labor gang a very long time or did you move on to--

Benjamn B.: Now, I'm gonna tell you. Stayed there from-- I was around then, tell you like it is, until it is Christmas time. Coming to Christmas. We jacked up because got all our money and went home and wondered whether we will come back or no, we didn't know. But the boss and all that stuff. He said, Leave one team the mill so when they come back we wouldn't lose no time on the 6 to 30 days and come back, we wouldn't lose no time until I would be over. We couldn't see it. I mean, the stick of butter then we couldn't see it. We got all our money when we do that and we come back and we lost our privileges. Well, somehow or another in '24. You went home, came back in '24 and went home for Christmas again. And my buddy decided to go someplace else. I don't know.

Benjamn B.: But I came back here. And every year I go home and get the money going home and say probably and come back. You know, the last time I came back, you know, I'm just doing the first couple, we was well off then. But we were going. Well, I wasn't bothered then. I was a rambling man then. I didn't care because he was, well, you know, fixed up. And I came back every year I can, you know, come back here and in 1928 went back and I stayed 1928, 1930 up until now. Quit rambling. I come from a family. My parents were both in there three times. Yeah, but this one I had around about 40 some years of service in there. If I see, you know, before I came out thinking. I came back 1928 and I stayed. 1930, 1930. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: Well I'd say you can remember things pretty well.

Benjamn B.: I'm 41 years old. Gottlieb: That's right. A lot of people I talk to can remember [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: Um, so. So would it be around Christmas time is every year that you would go back?

Benjamn B.: That's right. Went home and have a good time. Youngsters, you know. Yeah. One thing I never get give my father any trouble. No, because I would say like this back there, you know, with and whatnot, you youngsters. But I never give him that much that-- not that, but a problem. Gottlieb: Right. Benjamn B.: I did go out on and I get drunk or I try to get home the best I can and go in to bed and that's all. Gottlieb: Mhm. Benjamn B.: And he wouldn't bother me. I didn't come home no way, come on, my bed and see you know I get over. Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamn B.: Back then, young, you know.

Gottlieb: Uh. What-- What-- what time of year would you usually come back to Homestead?

Benjamn B.: In January, in January and February. Gottlieb: So it's just a month, then. Benjamn B.: Right. That's right.

Gottlieb: And you did that every year from 1923 to 1928. Black: Yeah.

Benjamn B.: And now 1925. I stayed away. So 1927, 26 and 27. I came back and I work about five months. We come right back in January. Rambling and then come back and so, I couldn't get anything. Come back to get mill then, there wasn't any trouble at all. Bout four, five months, go back home again. Well, I just come for the census in 1928, so I'm going to settle down and sit around now and quit running. 28. Got the mill, going out.

Gottlieb: Did you-- did you get married [??] for what you were doing there? Did you call yourself a rounder?

Benjamn B.: A rambler, I said. Rambler. Gottlieb: Rambler. Benjamn B.: Wasn't doing nothing ____[??] just rambling. Traveling. Well, this is traveling. Yeah, that's right. Traveling.

Gottlieb: Well, there were a lot of Black people coming in and out of Homestead at that period. Benjamn B.: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Well did you-- would you come back to the labor gang in open hearth every time you--

Benjamn B.: I got back in the labor gang. Yeah. And work up you know, stay there long enough, you know, I stay there long enough to work up to paying job until-- until 19, 1940, because I tell you what happened. I got in, I came back in 28 and got the mill. Well, the Depression came on. So I laying off, I was young man in the mill, you know, no service, but I got laid off. Yeah. And I started working for Homestead Borough. So it wasn't, no, I didn't see no chance of getting in the mill then and cause things was tough. People in the soup line, everything else back there during that time. And I got a job with then to Borough. And I work the Borough, I got mad. I work that what I was doing, I got mad waiting for the bus, making more money than because they were getting one bit of the pay every time. Two days without making good money borough then. Yeah. So I stayed there. So after I got married, wife and I sit down to well, now political job was all right for a single person. But after, that's when my first child born. I get a job in the mill, every time, [unintelligible.]

Benjamn B.: I said, I'm going, I'm try to get back in the mill. She said, I think it's a good idea. Then can see you don't have to be beholden to anybody cause of votin this. Yep.

Benjamn B.: All right. It's 1940. I finished my job. We finished working that day around-- No. This time we can work on to.

Benjamn B.: Friday. I think Friday I went down to the mill. Oh, lotta fellas was down there. Wantin' job, looking, trying to get back in the mill. Well, there were Nelson. He was-- no more transportation then. And he was there. And he came out, said, well, boys, we ain't hirin' nobody this morning. I got a big, bought a load out to everybody left [??]. I said, I sit on that bench, almost went to sleep. Then somebody said, David-- You know, me down, going to sit, you know. He said, we ain't hirin' nobody this morning. So what are you doing? You still here? Well, I don't have no place to go. I'm looking for a job to run me out of here. I laugh, run, naw, you know, I'm not going to do that, say, listen. Get your corduroys on now, get you to the hospital. I'm going to give you a job. I'm the only man got hired that day, went down to ____[??] in the hospital. I said, What? Said, I'm going to give you a job. I said, Thank you. He said, All right, come on. Mill hop down there.

Benjamn B.: Get examine. He said, All right. You go on Friday. You be in this office on Monday morning. And I told those fellows, but they didn't believe it. He said he wasn't going to hire anybody so we left. I said, Well, I stay. And I'm going to work Monday. And oh, my goodness, it's 1940.

Benjamn B.: This was, uh. Stay there 1940.

Benjamn B.: And I stayed there. From then on, I stay there, work myself up. Job can second helper. I could have had first helper, but I turned it down with the team. But they were going to draft, and I had to go to the office and sign myself off. Gottlieb: Yeah. Benjamn B.: Yeah. And. When you work like that in open hearth, you be a good worker, work steady. They move you right up. You can go if you want to, but if you refuse, why, that's different. Yeah, but if the job needed so much, you're drafted. The drafting, wasn't going to draft me. But I told him to put the pieces up and there wasn't so much hard work and pressure, you know, and lookin like ____[??], know. So I came, I, to take the turn or somebody lay off. I took a turn, you know, helped them out like that. But I signed the offer like that. But I didn't want to upset it right now.

Gottlieb: Wouldn't it have paid you pretty good money?

Benjamn B.: Oh, yeah. I'm going to tell you.