G., Joseph, November 26, 1973, tape 1, side 2

Peter Gottlieb: Did you get back to Charleston much during the years-- Joseph Joseph G.: No. No, I, uh.

Joseph G.: I joined the mill here in '24. I guess I must have worked. I knew where he lived. Gottlieb: Yeah. Gottlieb: So here I didn't-- early in the morning, I didn't go there. I stopped at the rooming house. ________[??] He all, went into work, go in the hen house. Used to have, that was there-- I went to the house. He came home in the evening and he said, now I pass this morning. And all pass was you. Then-- that's long, 'fore. So in that time I went back there several times. I went back a half dozen times after that time. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: What-- What I meant to ask. I didn't make myself clear. When you were workin' on the carnival before you settled down here in Homestead, did your travel-- travel on the carnival bring you back to Charleston very much? Joseph G.: No. Gottlieb: Never. Joseph G.: No, I left there. Gottlieb: When you left in 1919, you didn't see Charleston. Joseph G.: No, no, no. My narration of the carnival was about, oh, hundred or so miles. We played Chesterfield, South Carolina. We left there, went down ______[??] nine hundred miles. They don't-- that far, but at one time they did. We left there, went to Savannah, [unintelligible], South Carolina. They didn't have their own train. The reason for the car, you'd be in the yard for several hours, [unintelligible]. But they didn't go overnight. No we never went back, yeah. Of course, that train now, like most places where they had carnivals around, didn't anymore. Build up, [unintelligible]. Same thing in Pittsburgh. We had spaces here but we'd be up around hills where fields had fields. _____[??] to go around. Walk back, deliver it, finally walk back. Like any other place, there was nothing. [unintelligible] Gottlieb: Did you enjoy that? Traveling around? Joseph G.: Oh, yeah, very, very much. Gottlieb: _________[??] have a place to come back every night [unintelligible]. Joseph G.: No, that didn't-- But as I mentioned, the main attraction is the travel because-- _____[??] about five dollars a week. And that'd be justified. I'd be a farmer for that. I make enough for foreman, well that job only pays $25. You didn't get that. What? I mean, you get some of that and some later and whatnot. [unintelligible] Ohio. And I moved up as a foreman.

Joseph G.: So I went to the bar to get nine dollars for room. The bar didn't have any. [unintelligible]borrowed five dollars from somebody. Get a room. Before that time, room, what are you talking about? You got to be out of your mind. Gottlieb: You just slept on the ground. Joseph G.: We were playing room in Pennsylvania for [unintelligible]. I get up the next morning where I was lying was wrong. But all over the. You see, I did have arthritis. Gottlieb: Yeah. Joseph G.: Another time. We were playing a little county down in South Carolina. And then I went in the tent. Stood in there. Why don't you lie down and sleep?

Joseph G.: I can't sleep on that-- bed. So I get up on my bunk. Fell asleep. Woke up next morning. Peek out of the tent. There's a fire over there. I couldn't get up. It's the bed. Took an effort to get myself. [unintelligible] Usually when the show closes might be. But if you won, you's the next day. But not too long. Usually, until they open up at night. Gottlieb: Do you remember any other things you liked to do particularly with your spare time? Working on the carnival? [unintelligible] Joseph G.: Mostly what I said. Examples on there. We got the biggest. But other than that. Because during the day. Well, we really have nothing to do. So the main job of setting up begin with wasn't til the end. And. The tent, of course. It didn't matter what happened in the rain. We roll them up, put them in the car, and don't let the sun shine on them rolled up. Gottlieb: Why? Joseph G.: For as long as it's raining. When the sunshine, we got to roll it out. Gottlieb: Did you make a lot of new friends? Joseph G.: Well, I didn't meet too many. It was the same guys. Well, that's about.

Gottlieb: Well can you tell me about how you finally came to settle here in Homestead? What made you decide?

Joseph G.: Well, I said. I really don't know. _______[??] the tour. The owner lived in the North Side. Of Pittsburgh. We stop here. I went back another year. I had the foreman job. They don't know why we settled here. I didn't want to stay here after I went out the mill. I wanted to go to Detroit. ________[??] plant. 'Course, I put one loner, in the winter you ain't _____[??]. You know, this one winter we were forced to hire. So here I went to work in the landlord's shop. [unintelligible] Didn't have any brains. I was packing boxes, 'course the whole thing started,

Joseph G.: Last thing started because I work in labor gang. [unintelligible]

Joseph G.: So here this evening, I'm reading. Reading up this stuff. I want to go home. Seven o'clock this morning. I said, why don't you go? He said, my money didn't come.

Joseph G.: I said, Oh, he said, you were over there in that section, or did you have anybody-- that guy quit. Don't have nobody. I said, why don't you give me the job? He said, you can have it. [unintelligible] Go ahead and pack the boxes. So there, I didn't have that thing but five minutes. Guy comes to me, Are you the box? I said, yeah. Well. See this one. So here I go over to all this stuff here we God blessing and the he says, Give me that kid.

Joseph G.: I want to practice my ___[??]. [unintelligible] I been here all night. I made it back to _____[??] I finally quit.

Joseph G.: The guy said, I'm sorry you're leaving, he come back and I'm here, [unintelligible]. Well now I'm ___[??] to quitting. The reason I quit, a buddy of mine, he would fill out that diesel engine. He didn't get in there [??] So then we apply for a pass, get ready for hire. We just left the job.

Joseph G.: Couldn't find a job. Of course the job paid $3.76 a day, you get time and a half for, over eight. Get time and a half for all the Sundays. That time, I couldn't go on less than $50. That'd be twice a month. Six months. [unintelligible] Today now I'd be retired railroader. I'd be lyin' if I ____[??] a train. But what do you anything. [unintelligible] Anytime I see ____[??] less than, we're not putting in forty years of railroad. Gottlieb: Did you always have to get a job during the winter layover? For the carnival? Joseph G.: [unintelligible] Gottlieb: Oh I see. Joseph G.: Well, we made it. We were. We went to court somewhere in Virginia one year. So they, I was a, I published a newspaper. [unintelligible] I was in news reporter and editor and printer. And I did all the work myself.

Joseph G.: But somehow we managed to live doing that. The boss's wife and, um. [unintelligible]

Joseph G.: Look, she said all winter. [unintelligible]

Joseph G.: There were three brothers. And each one's wife. So then that the, uh. The, uh. Man I work for. They call his wife Bessie, just to break the monotony. They all in the day [??]. [unintelligible] I was often a member take the stuff off. That's the oly way to _____[??]. [unintelligible] You know, I was the everything. Editor. News reporter. Printer. Gottlieb: So men would have to just find whatever job they could find? Joseph G.: In winter.

Joseph G.: Because money. Some of them left all of their home and then come back when it was over. But some of the fellas would save, want to save the money for that. Cause they were-- they were paying for ________[??] but there weren't too many doing that.

Joseph G.: I wasn't on that. No, I was on my own. News reporter. No, some would go home and come back.

Gottlieb: How many months was the-- would you be laying over for the winter?

Joseph G.: Oh, about. Five months. Gottlieb: Five. Joseph G.: Yeah just about five months. I told you earlier about [unintelligible] They come from the North. So many times they put in a few weeks there [unintelligible] 'Course that winter, [unintelligible]. Oh, they owed everybody. [unintelligible] So once after. They owed so much money.

Joseph G.: That the association there sent a man along with a bill to collect for them. They pay something about 20s or 10. Filled with. They would pay. So that's [unintelligible] They have a bad week [unintelligible] Revenue to pick up. Quite a few.

Gottlieb: Can you tell me how you heard about a job in the mills here and how you came to be working here?

Joseph G.: Well, see, at that time there was a shortage of men. The steel work lost in there to different places. They call that transportation. They would go, like, say to Richmond. Yeah. Yeah, of course they got. They were mostly from the South. They brought in transportation. In fact, most of the fellas in the plant came here on transportation. Gottlieb: Oh yeah? Joseph G.: Oh yeah. Most of the fellas. Gottlieb: You talking about Black men now? Joseph G.: Yeah. Yeah. 'Course, they brought in anyone and all that want to come. They were mostly fellas from the South. Anybody that want to come. They would go to Richmond and they would bring in a whole coachload of men. You know, you were one of the ones they were hire down there, bring you up. And then you got here and they took care of your food and lodging until you had earned enough to pay for it. Of course even after you earned a pay or two, they would deduct from your pay enough to pay the boardinghouses. [unintelligible] So they brought in enough to pay [unintelligible] Well, we're up in the 30s. Gottlieb: Really? Joseph G.: 'Course now, well actually, the most were Mexicans and so forth. See they went as far as Mexico to bring up the Mexicans. [unintelligible] Gottlieb: But that's not how you got here. Joseph G.: Oh, no, no, no. I came by just quitting on the carnival here.

Gottlieb: Had somebody told you or your buddies that there was work in Homestead as opposed to Braddock or Duquesne or one of those places, why was it this particular town?

Joseph G.: The reputation. Gottlieb: Oh, really? Joseph G.: The coal, if there's no work in Homestead, Detroit. The women. Gottlieb: Really. Joseph G.: Yeah. Homestead. Detroit. They was the steel mills here. The automotive in Detroit. Those two places. You may find a job anywhere, but if there's no job in those two places, well then forget it, there's ain't anything. There's always a great need for men here and Detroit back then. [unintelligible] When I want to work in the mill, the certain job there, they had 12 men on this particular job. So then finally, 1930. I worked as a foreman there. On that team. [unintelligible] They cut twelve to six. So finally. When I came out the mill eight years ago, it had three men on that same job. Gottlieb: They cut-- Joseph G.: But, well, this wasn't actually cut. It was machinery that made that second cut. But now when they had the 12 men.

Joseph G.: They just wanted, they didn't need that many there. Gottlieb: They just make the six work harder. Joseph G.: Yeah. Yeah. But when they had the twelve men, they didn't-- But now the six. They needed more than six. I would say eight men would have been working together. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: Did you just walk into the mill's office down there when you were-- Joseph G.: Oh yeah. You saw they had the sign. Anyone. They hire every day at that time.

Joseph G.: And now, it's periodic. Gottlieb: Did they ask you if you had any experience when you walked in? Joseph G.: No. Unless you applied for certain job. And then the big manager line up with. Gottlieb: You had never been in a big mill before. Joseph G.: No.

Gottlieb: What did it look like to you? Do you remember what, you know, what, all that stuff, how you reacted?

Joseph G.: Well, I was really I was a little frightened, you know, to see all that stuff. I only got. With my first job there, I worked in general labor. I stayed there, I think. Gottlieb: Was that in open hearth? Joseph G.: No. I was outside. Gottlieb: Out, out, out in the yard. Joseph G.: Out in the yard. Fact I have a big truck here. I was in the Labour gang when they were building that, and I worked 17 days there and it became so rough I decided to quit. And this buddy of mine, he was already on the inside of the plant. And he got me into shipping. That's why I continued. So after they _____[??]

Joseph G.: I want to go over there. But the reason I didn't go, feeling in my head about. Did I want about. Gottlieb: What truck was that? Joseph G.: Truck drill.

Joseph G.: Yeah, cause I got that, the time I got that job. [unintelligible] When I went there, there were no safety points. They have now. But you didn't need to wear gloves if you didn't want. [unintelligible] Uh, safety shoes came in year after I, one year after I ______[??]. Wear anything you wanted. [unintelligible] But then after that you have to wear your goggles. [unintelligible] Gottlieb: You know some companies _____[??] The accidents or job accidents, or the factory people working there-- Joseph G.: They did that. But now they don't because they tell you what to wear and you must wear it. So there's no there's no slip up there. Gottlieb: You think the fact that they were bringing

Gottlieb: Up a lot of Black men from the South who didn't have a lot of experience created a situation where that was more likely to happen? Joseph G.: No.

Joseph G.: I blame that on the mill. Gottlieb: Well, how would you most react to the ______[??] I mean, what would cause, how did the men-- Joseph G.: Well in reference to the structure of the mill. They have those big huge piles of beams piled up. Men would die [unintelligible]. Do you have an overhead crane in the meantime that the crane would hit one beam and. But of course, nowadays they're not piled up high and then they're more careful. So, uh, so one to be killed down there now is news. It really makes news. Because it happens so ___[??]. You don't get hurt down there nowadays, til you out. Gottlieb: Human life was cheaper back in those days. Joseph G.: Well they just didn't have experience. Not that the government [unintelligible]. Back there was a reward for ____[??]. [unintelligible] It didn't matter if you will, you'll have to work. You must, the gloves are worn, you get new gloves or you don't work. [unintelligible] They put in the hard hat and the goggles. Gottliebb: With the fire? Joseph G.: Everything else. Now in the open hall. They're using, they give you clothes. Protective clothes. The hard hats and the goggles ________[??] You wear glasses. You can get prescription goggles made. [unintelligible] You don't dare walk from one area to another without your hard hat. [unintelligible] And it must be worn unless you're under a helmet. Anytime you're away from the _____[??] hat must be on. [unintelligible] Gottlieb: What job did you get after you were on the labor gang? ____[??] Joseph G.: Shipping, yeah. So that's why I put off a year. Gottlieb: Oh you did? Joseph G.: Oh yeah. Gottlieb: That was just like, you had two different jobs in the mill the entire time. Joseph G.: Because as a foreman I worked the picketing line. Two jobs. From general labor to the shipping job. Gottlieb: What kind of work is involved in the shipping department? Joseph G.: Sorting. Working out-- ____[??] plates. _____[??] plates. They all come together. 'Course we separate the plates. Any of it. See some plates had to be inspected. Foreman, have a huge pile of a thousand different customers. That's way they did in shipment. Gottlieb: There's a different job that I've heard about. On the pile gang. In the plate mill. And they have to

Gottlieb: The boss of the pile gang

Gottlieb: Will have to separate the plates according to the order. Joseph G.: That was my job. Gottlieb: It was. Joseph G.: As foreman, yeah. Gottlieb: Oh, I see. You were in the _____[??] but not in the plate mill. Joseph G.: Now, the-- the, in the piling we was separated by order. What they have on some of the plates. Well, he just needed to get in the pile. Then they go in the yard and out in the yard. We do axe vill [??]. Definitely. Gottlieb: Oh I see. Joseph G.: He, he, he handled the hot stuff that was going on. Got to go out in the yard. And that's where most of the work was done out there. Gottlieb: Oh I see. Joseph G.: [unintelligible] Gottlieb: Uh huh. Was the old man named Silas Bart? Joseph G.: Silas-- is the relief man. Gottlieb: Oh, you were. Joseph G.: Yeah. Anytime he wasn't there, I was there. He was a foreman. I was a relief man. Gottlieb: I see, you worked up to be foreman after a while. Joseph G.: No. Here's what happened. I worked as the relief and the job became vacant. And here I didn't get the job. [unintelligible] I worked as a relief man. What happened-- what are you talking-- Said, what are you talking about? Said, I just had that job. Well, he said, not necessarily. So I want the first man coming in for the job. I say, well, look.

Joseph G.: You don't find another spare tire, gotta use what you have.

Joseph G.: So they got him a hat. So I would talk the union man, well now, what happened today, he said you folks should have gone there. I spoke with the boss chipper and he said you could have went _______[??] continue. He said, ___[??] when you ask for job, you don't get it, but then they offset you. But I had some questions. I thought, forget it. The reason I did, I said, well, now, if I get the union there, and they recommended it there, I would have to get the job. But can I keep the job? Well, I had this in mind that they'd find something wrong that wasn't wrong. So that's why I didn't. That's why I didn't fight for the job. But they still want me to do the relief foreman. And guy said to me, man, you're a fool. Because at that time the job paid $10. Gottlieb: [unintelligible] Joseph G.: Yeah. Today, about $50. He said, Now you're making $6.36 over here and over there you're making ten. I said I must be a fool, why would he ______[??] But you know the job thing. Here now I came off when Sunday morning and here the foreman didn't come back. They said, that you, you a foreman today or something. Why not? They had to almost shut the plant down trying to find someone to. Put me as a foreman. Gottlieb: But if you were talkin' to a union man, that would have been, the union came in 1937. So you worked in chipping department for a long time before you were able to move up to a foreman. Joseph G.: I could have gotten a job, I would have. Well now I just feared what would be said that actually wasn't true. You know, so I just was down there. Gottlieb: Til you got the job _____[??] anyway. Joseph G.: No, no, no. I just. I refuse to be the release man. So I just went back in chipping. I just-- what I was. Because actually my job was easier. Look at the supervisor. You don't use your muscles. Very well. Maybe down to one day. Look, I was foreman today. Look, you a foreman again today, I said, said well now, another day's rest won't hurt me. My job is when I rest. [unintelligible] Doing no muscle work. [unintelligible] It's like on a Sunday line. Everything stop for just two minutes. They come looking for me. Gottlieb: Oh yeah? Well, __________[??]. Joseph G.: Well, as you know, any supervisor, well he's in trouble. As long as you're going good, fine. Because I have those pictures, I had those trainmen to do the work. But they didn't find any guys _____[??]. They come-- walk up-- but that's the thing with any job. The manager, you's the prime target.