F., Jonnie, April 23, 1976, tape 1, side 1

Peter Gottlieb: Could you tell me what part of the South you're you're from?

Jonnie F.: At-- oh. Alabama. Down below. Montgomery, Alabama, called out there where we lived. They call that the Pike Road. Mhm. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. Road, that's what they call it. Alabama-- Bullock. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Uh huh. And see they had one part they called Bullock County and we stayed down there. Well then we moved up in Montgomery, you know. Uh, called, said they call it a place of, then Montgomery [??].

Gottlieb: Uh huh. And what-- What year were you born? Jonnie F.: Uh, now.

Jonnie F.: I was born sometime. I can't think of that. You--I was born-- I've been born so long, [laughs] I would guess but I'm 75 years old.

Gottlieb: Uh huh. Well, that would have been 1901 then. Jonnie F.: Mhm.

Jonnie F.: I will be this year. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Mhm.

Gottlieb: Um, well, what I'd most like to know about if you could tell me is what your parents did and what kind of work they did in the South and why they decided to come up North. Jonnie F.: Well, uh.

Jonnie F.: My, my father, he farmed. He raised cattle, corn, peas and, uh, wheat and wheat. And one time, he raised flour. Rice, you know, and-- and all the time we raised corn, peas and potatoes and cotton. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. You know, he used to uh, most people didn't want to have no corn, just cotton. Cotton. And then they learned to its benefit to have corn to feed the stock. They'd have corn to feed the stock you know. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. And now down there they don't raise much cotton. Gottlieb: No. Jonnie F.: Mm-mm. They raised some corn and stuff like that. But most people uh, go to town and get some kind of job, that's the way my brother's kids did. Now I-- I know they don't raise much cotton, but now if other people raise it, I wouldn't know that. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Well now I'm going on down there, I sees people have, you know, big farm. But my-- Just had a small farm and greens and peas and peanuts and a little cotton. He worked in town, you know. But he's dead now. And his son, they work in town. Mhm.

Gottlieb: What about your father? Did he ever go to town to work? Jonnie F.: Oh.

Jonnie F.: My father was in Birmingham. Who I was born from before he was married. He worked in Birmingham. And he pulled coke, I guess you know what that is. Gottlieb: Well-- Jonnie F.: They're more hard _____[??]. He poured coke. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Well, after he got married, well, he settled down. He settled down. He married my mother. Well, my mother died when I was going on three, and he takin' care of us. And, well, we got married again. He went off and stayed a while, but he come back and he got married and. Yeah, he raised. He raised. That's where he raised cotton and corn and peas and everything. He did pretty good, you know.

Gottlieb: Did he have his own farm or did he rent?

Jonnie F.: [simultaneous talking] Yeah. Yeah, sure. He had his own farm.

Gottlieb: What, was he renting it or did he own it? Jonnie F.: Well, he rented a farm.

Jonnie F.: And then he bought when he died. They got a great big farm down there. Got whole pack of land and a big pasture. Cows. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Jonnie F.: But, uh. Well, he's my. My father's wife's dead. And he's dead, too.

Gottlieb: And what was his name? His last name?

Jonnie F.: Frazier. Tom Frazier. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Mhm. That's what he was named. Tom Frazier. My granddaddy was named Henry Frazier. And my grandmother was named Mariah.

Gottlieb: Did you know them very well? Your grandpa?

Jonnie F.: Oh, yeah, I knew, uh-- my grand-- those grandparents good. My father's, uh, mother and father. But, uh, my-- My mother's mother died. 'Fore-- 'Fore before she got married. Well, I knew his daddy, and I knew my grand-- Her. Her daddy. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. But my grandmother, she help to raise me. She's named Mariah and Henry.

Gottlieb: So. So she lived with your-- With your parents and with the-- With the family?

Jonnie F.: Yeah, she did. She-- after my mother died, we stayed with her til my daddy got married. And then after, then my daddy takin' us. Takin' us over. And. And he was a very good father. Of course he was a poor father, but he was a sweet father because he was a nice looking father. And when, uh, my mother died, I was going on three and he wouldn't get married until I was going on nine. And then he was a young man, so to me, a nice looking young man. And he always takin' care of us, you know.

Gottlieb: How did he manage to do that? When he was working--

Jonnie F.: [simultaneous talking] Oh, he had a farm. He worked and got people to have him work and stayed with us and him and his daddy farmed together. Mhm. Yeah, I, I used to and after he got, after he married again. Well he was a little different. He had the job to please his wife, so, you understand. And my brother would talk, I said I thank God he's taking care of us till we got big enough together. Yeah. And I said now I let him live his own life. Wasn't that right. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Mhm. Oh, yeah. I thanks people for what they do for you because so many parents don't care for the kids, you know. But my daddy cared for us and so. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Yeah. He farmed the best he could and takin' care of us best he could, you know.

Gottlieb: Were you the oldest child. Jonnie F.: Mm.

Jonnie F.: No, my brother was the oldest. My brother was about four years older than I and he been dead about ten years. He was a miner. He left home. I don't know, maybe he's about 15. I don't know. I was small, and when I was a kid, I was a real kid. I didn't pay no attention to what happened. Nothing's gonna bother me, [laughs] I didn't. Anybody could die. I wouldn't know when they died. And nothing. I thought I was tending to my business. Mhm. But I know he left home because, uh, him and my, uh, stepmother couldn't get along, you know. Gottlieb: Mm. Jonnie F.: He see me go.

Gottlieb: And he-- He went to the mines? Did you say?

Jonnie F.: No. I don't know what he did then. I was kind of young. I don't know. He did some kind of work. He, I don't think he's quite old enough to go to the mine. Truthfully, as I say, I don't know what he did, but I know as I growed up, uh, he was a miner. He worked in a mine. But when he first went, I guess he might have been too young. I don't know.

Gottlieb: So he-- He came back to see you again? Jonnie F.: Oh, yeah.

Jonnie F.: He come back to see us. Sure. Sure. He come back and-- And, uh, he died in Virginia. Some parts of Virginia. I went to his family. He only stayed over there. He got hurt in the mine, too. And I. He come over here, stay with us some and go back to his place. And he died, so.

Jonnie F.: Just like all of us got to do, you know?

Gottlieb: Did any of your other brothers or sisters leave Alabama?

Jonnie F.: One-- one is in, uh, in New York. Rosie. Rosie. Right. She's in New York. Now she's the oldest one. I had, uh, I got two sisters, three sisters dead. And, uh, I have one sister down in Alabama. Sadie. Rosie is in, uh, New York. And my brothers. I had four. They-- They died. Uh, one of my brothers got killed in March. I went home Alabama, take a plane, buries him. Well, the baby boy, he got killed the same year, the 4th of July. I had to get a plan for back 'cause he got buried here. I ain't got any other brother.

Gottlieb: There were four boys and four girls? Jonnie F.: Mm.

Jonnie F.: And now let me see. Uh, yeah, let me see here. There were three girls. Three boys. There would have been four. But the baby boy died a long time ago. That's Henry and Cass. And Roosevelt, is just four of them, you know, live to get gone. Mm mm.

Gottlieb: Mm. And then four girls.

Jonnie F.: Four girl. Oh, yeah. I see me, I count. I was the oldest girl, Doc is [??], next is my sister Georgia. Sadie. Yeah, there was four of us. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. And ain't nobody living with her and Sadie. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Just her and Sadie, now she has her own home. Down here. And her daughter's in New York. And her son. She got a son down there. He's in Montgomery. I don't know what he so. Do something with tickets. I don't know. And, um. And where do you live at?

Gottlieb: I live in Pittsburgh. Jonnie F.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Over in Squirrel Hill.

Jonnie F.: Mhm. And you go around and find all stuff like that, huh?

Gottlieb: Yeah. Well, uh, the reason I do this is because if I try to find out about these things in books, people haven't written about them yet. Jonnie F.: Mm. Gottlieb: And it's just the people who have come up through the period of time I'm trying to learn about that-- that can tell me what I want to know. Jonnie F.: Mhm. Gottlieb: So I go around and talk to uh, all kinds of people about their life in the South and why they decided to come up here and things like that.

Jonnie F.: Well, because now you just think nothing of these stories. You know, you get tell the same thing over and over. Next somebody is come up here and do pretty good at tell you. Then that'll make you want to come see me. It's good to come, see you work down there for nothing. You know, 'cause men used to work, fifty cents a day, you know? And when they was making a dollar, they just making big wages. Yeah, that's right. That's what it is. It is getting better, better. And my granddad. Oh he-- Oh he was-- I don't know. He says, uh, he said it was going to get better, he said it top rail and the bottom rail is coming to the top. So he said it's going to get better. And, and I thought my granddad is crazy, just like my children thinks now. You know for that plant started. No, he first said he was going to be things running around here and then on mules pulling me. Even just people just going to be riding and it's going to be running around here and riding. I said, No, but I said, I said, Granddad, you got a Jesus [??] any one could ride on automobiles. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: And then he said again, people going to be up in the air, just riding and things just going everywhere. Riding and things. I said that's crazy. Well here come the airplanes. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.:Things just come in time. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Mhm.

Gottlieb: Did you say your grandfather helped your father farm the land?

Jonnie F.: [simultaneous talking] My grandfather? Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Uh, my grandfather. Yeah. Uh, they farmed together a while, not long because, uh, truthfully, my grandfather didn't seem to-- far as I could see, understand things, you know, he just wanted to work for nothing. And I was small little girl, and. And I remember I was going on nine years old. My dad was in, he was in-- in Birmingham. Then he started the town that morning. He had a bale of cotton. I knew he had some cotton. I don't know how many bale and he was going to town. My grandmother thought, well, he come on back and told my grandmother, say, I ain't going to town. She said, They said there was nothing in the cotton for me, wasn't nothing leading me to go on. But you see, I felt like he should have knew what he owed. You understand. Mhm. That's, that's that, that stayed with me. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: That he should-- And I can just see it as it were, you know, the morning, how it look. Now he should have known he didn't have nothing coming you know. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Now they work some people and give them what they wanted them to have you know. But they didn't do my daddy like that. Mm-mm. Because uh, you know, they would-- like you have a farm you would borrow money off--

Jonnie F.: I just say, I borrowed money off of you and uh, when I make my cotton, sell, I pay you. But some of them people, if I borrow money off of you when I pick my cotton, you take it and sell it and get your money yourself. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: But you didn't sell my daddy's cotton. He said listen I got money off of you, not cotton. That's what you gets, money, no cotton. Say no man sells my cotton. Gottlieb: Mm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. That's what my dad would tell him. But my granddaddy, he'd do anything they wanted to. Well you know he was just weak like that, you know. He didn't have nothing. None of his boys like that. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: He did-- He, uh, you see people buy mules and wagons and have horses and things. My granddaddy didn't never have nothing. Never done. But he rent and give half his cotton. And see, when you work on the hay, they supposed to get half everything, but they got all my granddaddy, give my granddad a little bit and take all. But you didn't do, you didn't do my daddy like that. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: No he didn't. And I say to just, just some, just some people [unintelligible].

Gottlieb: Was your father able to go to school?

Jonnie F.: Not far. He didn't go to school much but he knows how to read. Uh, but you know he didn't go to school much, but now his brother. Now you see I wasn't going down, I don't know. But I just think some things for myself. Uh, my uncle, he-- He knew how to read and write, and. But my father, he couldn't write. And-- but count? No, no. You like, you wear cotton and people be working with us. He tell you where it was, where you could get it to. You said so much and so much. Kind of just like that. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Uh huh. Now what I was going to say, I don't know how come he didn't go to school. You know, maybe he didn't want to go. And then, you know, way back in old time, old people didn't had no sense. If you didn't go to school, they make you do it again. Him say, I made it all right without an education. Yeah, sure.

Gottlieb: What about yourself? Were you able to go to school?

Jonnie F.: I didn't go to school a whole lot, so I went some. 'Cause down there then, when I was going to school, why you, um, just were pickin' cotton, and how, just pickin' cotton til December. And then, then we stopped at Christmas, see, Christmas. So we go to school, then we see January, February, about two months and a half. March, you got to stop to drop corn. So corn, see, see, we didn't have time, you know, but it's not like that now.

Gottlieb: Yeah. So when-- So when the cotton had to be planted and cultivated and harvested, no one went to school during that time.

Jonnie F.: No. Some people sent the kids to school. No, they didn't-- They didn't, none of them, 'cause the school close. It close. Now, I don't know what time in March but I know it closed in March. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. Stores. But they don't do that now. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: And they go just like they do up here. Mhm. Even with you in the country, they have a bus to come down and get you. And we had to walk down the house. Was a little wooden house, make a fire, smoke us to death [laughs]. But, but it's not like that anymore. It's just like, they down there and just like it is in town. Bus comes and picks them up and when they finish and they-- they do good. Most of them, when they finish high school, finish them off and go to college. Those don't go to college, they go find a job. Now, my-- my brother's daughter, she's a teacher. And all of his school, his children, has finished school. But the baby girl, she's about 13. I guess she ain't finished yet. She's very nice. He died and left-- and left his wife with five kids. But she ain't-- They ain't give her no trouble. Yeah, they come to get them. And I told him, I said we didn't have no chance to go to school, you know, 'course school started 'fore Christmas, but we had to pick cotton and we couldn't go. So. And so that's the way it is, you know?

Gottlieb: What kind of work did-- did you do around the-- around the house, around the farm when you were growing up?

Jonnie F.: I hoed-- and pick cotton and-- and sow cotton seed, drop corn, man [laughs]. Pick peas [laughs], you know, when the peas gettin' ripe. Pick peas. Yeah. And pull barley [??]. I didn't pull much barley for this, I, I just couldn't stand it. [unintelligible] But everything else, I did it.

Gottlieb: Did they ever have you plowing?

Jonnie F.: Oh, yeah. And I like to plant and sing my reels. I like that. And I plowed and drove the wagon. Hauled wood.

Gottlieb: Sounds like you did almost all kinds of work that a man did.

Jonnie F.: [simultaneous talking] I did. I did. I didn't mind. And I was strong. You know, when pick cotton, have them big old baskets and put them in a wagon and bring them up to the house. Shucks, I can't. I lift those 100 pound just like my brother did, throw them on my back child and I just jump them. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. It was fun then you know. But when you comes to getting older and work, work, work and stay the same, the same, you know-- you want to change. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm.

Gottlieb: Did you have to do things around the house too, like in the kitchen?

Jonnie F.: Sure. I cook, wash, iron, scrub. Sure. What's wrong, how come I didn't-- Did everything. Cooking, wash. Scrub. Sweep the yard, work in my flowers. Work in the garden. Yeah, sure, I come, I had to. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm.

Gottlieb: Did you get-- did you get a chance to go into town very often when you were living out on the farm or--

Jonnie F.: Well I didn't go to town, I didn't have nothing to go to town with. [laughs] I ain't have no business in town. No I didn't go-- I was about 15, four or five, 'fore I went to town. Gottlieb: Oh really? Jonnie F.: Mhm. Mm. Yeah. About 15. 16 probably.

Gottlieb: What about, what about your, uh, your--your parents. How often would they have to go into town?

Jonnie F.: Well, my daddy, um, didn't have to go to town, but once a month. Gottlieb: Once a month? Jonnie F.: Uh huh. He buy all his grocery, bring 'em-- they'd last a month. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: About once a month, go to town. But in the fall, I think he'd go regularly, you know, to sell his cotton, you know. But in the summer he didn't hardly go once a month. Buy 'em ready, go back with flour, big old lemon and meat [??]. And my daddy raised a lot of meat too. Raised his own hogs and his own cows and things like that. He's a pretty good provider. And we wasted up a lot of food too. And, you know, uh, because my dad said when he come up, he didn't have-- get enough to eat, you know? And he says he wanted us to eat well every day. She says, Well, I'll buy it, I'm not eatin' it [??]. And she was our stepmother. She was-- And she didn't believe in that. I was saying, you ain't used to having a lot of food. He said, That's what I worked for my kids to eat. She said, Well, they cookin', mess it up. He said, If they don't mess it up, they never learn how to cook, say they got to mess it up. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: And so when we cooked, I cooked anytime I want. I like cooking in the country. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: What was you raised in?

Gottlieb: I was, I grew up around in Northern Virginia. Near Washington D.C.. Jonnie F.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Been a long time since I've been there though. Jonnie F.: Mhm. Gottlieb: You can't, you can't really call that the South. I don't call it the South.

Jonnie F.: I don't know what you do. My brother was in all kinds of-- I mean, uh, Virginias and things, you know, where they had coal mines, cats [??], West Virginia. I can't think of many because I went to West Virginia and I went to two of the, uh, I can't say the name Virginia. He used to be, I used to go see him.

Gottlieb: How did you come to be in Pennsylvania?

Jonnie F.: 'Cause I just moved down ______[??] come on. Well, one thing, uh, we was in Birmingham, and my friend come up here, and she said it's just better off here. And me and my husband was coming up here.

Jonnie F.: Mhm. Yep, that's why people this ______[??].

Gottlieb: How old were you at that time when you came up here? Jonnie F.: I know maybe--

Jonnie F.: I say maybe aboout 28. Somethin' like that. And I been married.

Gottlieb: How old were you when you got married?

Jonnie F.: I was 18.

Gottlieb: And after you were married, you moved to Birmingham?

Jonnie F.: No, I quit that man. I'm-- I'm still here. I quit him.

Jonnie F.: And when I, when I-- Me and him was in the country, I couldn't remember which town. Worked in the-- and then I met this man. You know, you know, in Birmingham, and, we got married. 5000 [??], been married. We had kids. I and him got married.

Gottlieb: So you went to Birmingham on your own?

Jonnie F.: Yeah. Me and my-- me and-- me and a lady friend. Comes to Birmingham. And then she come to Birmingham on. Dale [??] brother.

Jonnie F.: And it another home, so. Let's see, that's-- that's the reaper [??].

Gottlieb: Did you have work there?

Jonnie F.: Yeah, I live in, then I work. Wasn't nobody give me nothing. I work. I didn't make much, but I made out with it. 'Cause then, you know, you just think-- 'course things were cheap. But when you made $5 a week, you was making good money. Yeah. Workin', $2 a week. You, 'course I didn't do nothin' much. As he didn't pay me nothin'. And you know, if I-- if I ever was out, I worked at they liked me a whole lot you know, and some of the white ladies down there didn't have no sense because I tell them anything, hear 'em say, don't pay my nurses no attention. She ain't got no sense. I said, I said, you ain't got no sense [laughs]. And yeah, I did. And I worked at one place and Mr. Solomon and I didn't do nothing but cook. And man, there's a great big stout girl. She said, she said, Nurse, you don't have to do nothing hard. Said, let a man to do it. And I didn't do nothing hard. You know, her husband, he'd leave on Monday. He tell me when he leaves. He said, Nurse, everything I buy, I buy for you and my kids. He said, if you don't do nothing but watch my kids, they don't make nothing any more. He said, Make kids mind you too. I said, okay. And, you know, um, people down there used to think colored folks didn't have any sense.

Jonnie F.: You know, they wanted to take me to another place with them, but I wasn't going. And the lady said to me, I looked at her, she thought I was crazy. I don't know what she thought. They thought they wanted nothing or something. She said, Oh, Jonnie, nursing-- the nursing, and I want you to go with us. I can't think of his name. They said, On Wednesday, that they have a good time. See you-- You go with their husband and they go with your husband. I said, Yeah, that's, you know, just just like that. I looked at him and I said, Now, what kind of good time you think? They think you didn't have no sense. Sit down and go? She said, Why? You know, I. I don't want to stay by myself. Ain't you got a boyfriend? I said, I don't stay with boyfriend. I don't like boyfriend staying with me. They think you got nothing, you know, ain't got no sense. I said, I want no man stayin' with me. And I heard her tell another lady, another lady says, Why don't you make nurse, one nurse stay out in the house? She said, nurse said she prayed [??]. But while she got a boyfriend, she's a nurse and she ain't got no boyfriend. You know, I figured just like you, if I had one, I want nothin' to do [laughs].

Gottlieb: Was this when you were in Birmingham?

Jonnie F.: Mhm. No, that was when I was in Montgomery, because I wasn't married to this man then, I've, I've just, you know by myself. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. Yeah. That's the way thought her people didn't and you know just mainly bad white people, these colored people. Gottlieb: Sure, sure. Jonnie F.: But they seem to think that colored people didn't have no sense. But some of them I guess they did sit down and tell them all they did. But I go there to work. I didn't go there to tell her my business.

Gottlieb: Did your husband come up to Pittsburgh ahead of you and then send for you?

Jonnie F.: No, let me see. Let me see. No, we come together. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Jonnie F.: Mhm.

Gottlieb: You said this friend of yours had come up here and then told you how--

Jonnie F.: [simultaneous talking] Yeah, well, she did-- Edmund Harris's wife. She come up first, and then my husband, me and my husband and his kids. I raised five kids for him. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: And the oldest one is living. She just is as nice to me 'cause I was her mother and everything I wanted she give it to me. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. She brought me a brand new suit and uh, I, I didn't want, I didn't need no coat and I told her and I thought-- she said, she said you want a coat. And I said, yeah, I said, I said, I make out with the coat I got. She said, you don't have to make out with nothing. And she gave, she just nice because now I was 12 years older than her. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: And, uh, and, um, we all, you know, we might as well, say, come up along together, you know. But I always was nice to her. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. Anything I could give her she wanted, I give it to her. You know, if I had been interested in things she wanted, I let her have, you know. I see. I get ______ [??]. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Gottlieb: What kind of work did your husband do in Alabama?

Jonnie F.: He worked at a cert factory [??]. He didn't, he didn't stay there long. He worked cert factory. And um, when we come up here for the day to-- he carried the hod of wire [??]. And, uh. And he told me one day, he said, I'm going to stop carrying the hod. I said, What you going to do, he said, I'm going to plaster. I said, How are you going to plaster? He said, just give me a trowel and I'm going to plaster. And that's just what he did. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Jonnie F.: He didn't get no school. You know, things just for you is easy. He said, I see way they're doing, I'm gonna do it, and that's the way he did. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Jonnie F.: And, uh, he plastered. He put on cement, you know, cement. And then he used to put up-- Put in gas pipes, you know. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: He's a carpenter. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Jonnie F.: Uh huh. He can do anything.

Gottlieb: When he was first up here, you said he was carrying hod.

Jonnie F.: Uh huh. Yeah, he carried the hod, and. And he'd do everything but paper. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: He would not paper. He said let somebody else do something. He said, Hire somebody. But I papered myself. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Jonnie F.: He said, you can paper if you want. He said, I ain't gonna paper. Said, you're gonna hire it, I asked you to do it. But sometimes get too hard to see it or not. But, uh, hire somebody to do it. You can do not just-- lay bricks. Well, all you get lay bricks. And they wouldn't let him lay bricks. He started to stop him because he wasn't immune. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: And it wouldn't make colored people younger, you know.

Gottlieb: So they couldn't lay bricks.

Jonnie F.: So he couldn't lay bricks. Well, now, I don't know whether he joined the union or not. I don't know nothing, but. Didn't let him lay bricks. But maybe they, now you know-- And now you know, it's much better than what they have been. But it's not quite even. Now, my brother, he could do all kind of things. Fixing houses. And, um, he did-- he worked, and they paid, paid the white people more than they did him. And when they get in a tack [??], it's always called him. Down South. But, you know, it was so much better because I don't know what he's making a day. But anyhow, it was so much than he-- he had ever made, you know, so he just-- he know-- he know it wasn't what they should have given but he was glad to get that. Gottlieb: Yeah.

Gottlieb: Mhm. What, what part of Pittsburgh did you live in when you first came up here? Jonnie F.: Mm.

Jonnie F.: I, I lived in this part.

Gottlieb: In East Liberty.

Jonnie F.: Yeah. In East Liberty. You know, Shakespeare. You know, I'm all around, all up in, you know, East Liberty, Shakespeare and, you know, Garfield Hill and stuff like that. He's in, huh? That's what-- Unidentified speaker: That's where we was born. In the same house. Jonnie F.: Mhm. Old things like that, and there wasn't any-- stay around in different places. Sometime we had to move, we got put out completely and we bought a house on Colombo. But after my husband died that house went down and then this house we stayed in, I'm able to make their livin' saying, what we doin', and it rent, and my sons died [??]. You know, we buy, uh, I say, you know, you buy the house, you say maybe some of them in the family will finish paying for it. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Paying all that much for rent, maybe someone will finish.

Gottlieb: So you lived in quite-- a quite a number of different places around this part of town?

Jonnie F.: Yeah. Not too many, no. Stayed on Shakespeare. Stayed on Columbo. Stayed down a place, called down there Harlem. They got, Washington Boulevard, once stayed there now. See, there's houses down there then. Washington Boulevard. And one five [??] ain't allowed. She says, they come along there. Tell 'em I just going to make her pray for it [??] down there. And she said, Dad, you're gonna-- Miss Bradley. That's what she's name. She said, Oh, Bradley was president, down the town, vandalizing [??], they ain't making' that-- the city ain't gonna make it for 30 years [laughs]. But they made it, you know, they be a long time making things. But they're putting you get to what they say they're going to do, but they don't worry. Yeah. We still got-- I still-- now she's crippled. Gottlieb: Mm. Jonnie F.: You can tell them by I think they'll make it for 30 years and uh. But they made Washington Boulevard, that's where we stayed. They had them in Harlem but they'd be [laughs], you know um-- you know, I look at my time when you come through times like that. But we was happy, you know, long as we could make ends meet. Things happen and go. We didn't know, invitin' no big money, you know, and stuff like that. And we was happy. But now things is so high. My God. You go to buy stuff. Mm. You make good money. But-- But we just have to be thankful to be here and do the best we can, that's all we can do.

Jonnie F.: Anything we can do. If God would grant thing to be changed it'd be changed. And if He say no, it's not. And that's what I know. I thank Him for being here as long as I is and don't have to ask nobody for nothing. Don't have to be on the people, you know? Gottlieb: Uh huh. Jonnie F.: And then I can have my place anywhere I want to go and take a trip. I can take it, you know. that's wonderful. I thank God for that. Don't feel beaten up. And I just thank God. And, you know, I said, Lord, if I get too high, bring me down. Gottlieb: Yeah. Jonnie F.: Hey, let me stay on the ground. I tells a lot of them. I got a grandson over, he ain't got no sense [??]. I look at him. Mhm. I say you try to beat everybody and laugh and be cute. And I, I said son I, I raised him and I said you know, I used to, couldn't get you to take a food stamp to the store, you know, I'd give him money. And I said now you's glad to get on the welfare [laughs]. Of course he not on it now, but he been on it [laughs] and that's why I said don't get too high. Gottlieb: Mhm.

Gottlieb: You were you always working when you lived in Pittsburgh?

Jonnie F.: Every time I wasn't havin' a baby I had a job [laughs]. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: I'm smart, you know. My husband was a plasterer. Gottlieb: Mhm. Jonnie F.: You know in times he didn't want me to work but I says I work now and I says if anything happen to you I got to work and then it would go hard with me because I'm not used to working. I said but if I'm used to working won't hurt me and I don't have enough not to work 'cause I don't like to feel for the lifestyle. And I worked. Gottlieb: What kind of work? Jonnie F.: I do washing and ironing, cleaning and scrub washing walls. Now, now I tell you about washing. Well, my husband didn't know I washed them. I washed them little kitchens, you know, he didn't know I washed. One day, I promise two ladies. I was gonna wash their kitchen and I washed mine. I didn't feel like washing anything. And-- And she called up to the house and was asking for me. My husband talked to her and he asked her, what does she want me? She said she wants to wash my kitchen now. He said, She lazy, ma'am [??], my wife don't wash no kitchen now. He said, I'm not coming. He said, That woman called me and said she wanted you to wash her kitchen now. She said-- So I told her, You don't wash. And I said, You did. And I said, I just finished washing [laughs].

Gottlieb: How did you go about finding work?

Jonnie F.: Oh, I don't know. Just-- Just-- People say they want you to work sometime. You put the ad in, they call you.

Gottlieb: You used to put an ad in the newspapers?

Jonnie F.: Yeah, a long time ago. But now girls don't want to work now. But I got a job now.

Gottlieb: Yeah, that's what Daddy [??] told me.

Jonnie F.: Mm. Now, it's not that. I can't sit down. I got to get up. Uh, you see, I do that sometimes. I get there by 9:00, and, uh. And I go over house, I'll do some cleaning, run the mop and wash the windows, open off [??], and I be through around about two, sometimes quarter two. Well, I make 15, $16 a day. I don't [??] think that's fair. And gettin' it started nine sometime 9:30 and getting through at two should-- ___________[??] [laughs].

Gottlieb: Why didn't your husband want you to work?

Jonnie F.: 'Cause he thought I was too good to work. I was staying, do with the kids [??]. That's why. Wanted me stay home, stay with the kids.

Gottlieb: When you were out working, who did look after the children?

Jonnie F.: I don't know, first one, then, you know. But, uh, my sister-in-law. But, uh. Yeah.

Gottlieb: What was your husband's name?

Jonnie F.: Seed. Now, my husband was named Grady Pierce, but they called him Seed, and, uh, he named-- He named his son Grady. And he named the other boy Seed. [laughs] Got his name. Unidentified speaker 2: So his son's name-- his son's Seed.

Jonnie F.: Mhm. Unidentified speaker 2: Asked, but--

Jonnie F.: Yeah, he, he was named Grady, but they always called him Seed. Gottlieb: Seed? S E E D? Jonnie F.: Mhm. And he named his son Grady and he told me, he said that was his-- That's my name Grady.

Gottlieb: Was he from the same part of Alabama that--

Jonnie F.: Yeah. He's from the same part. No, not-- little different. I thought that maybe something-- Otis, Alabama. Down fish patties [??] and-- and other pike roads, you know, little places like that. Mhm.

Gottlieb: Did you know him when you were growing up or did you just meet him shortly before you got married?

Jonnie F.: Oh, when I knew-- he was lots older than I were.

Jonnie F.: When I knew him. When I knew him. I was about ten years old and-- And he's married. No, he wasn't marry. He got married. Even his wife died. _________[??] Mhm.

Gottlieb: Um, when you were living up in Pittsburgh, did you used to go back to Alabama? Jonnie F.: Sure I

Jonnie F.: did. Don't know how many times I went back.

Gottlieb: Was there a particular time of year that you used to decide--

Jonnie F.: Write me and tell me my daddy was sick, that was the time of year. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Jonnie F.: That's the truth. That was the time of year, when they said Tom Frazier was sick. That was my time.

Gottlieb: What was it like to go back to Alabama after you were living up here? Jonnie F.: Hm?

Jonnie F.: Said, would I like to go back?

Gottlieb: I said, what? No. What was it like?

Jonnie F.: It's just like it was 'fore I left. Mhm.

Jonnie F.: It's just like it were before I left. Only little different. You see, they, uh. When I was there, I didn't have no lights or nothing. They got electric lights and-- And, uh, got gas stoves up in the house. And, you know, this is-- when I was down there last year and they didn't have no water. I had to haul water. Yeah. Cuz they, you know, they got something.

Jonnie F.: There's water again, I'm going down, something. But I'm just, goin' down this year to see.

Jonnie F.: Something we got new. But I always-- water, water. That's what it is, water. And don't really have gas. Water. Well, the most thing now, they going to get, they're going to get water toilets. You know, I don't know much about that anymore. [unintelligible]

Gottlieb: Did you-- people down there want to know about Pennsylvania when you came back? Did they ask you about what it was like living up here?

Jonnie F.: They ain't paid no attention to me, something down there there it would be down. There was one white lady asked me, I went to buy some pork chops and I asked her how much it was, she says seventy five cent pound.

Jonnie F.: I said okay. And she looked at me.

Jonnie F.: She said, You don't live down here, do you? That's been a long time before I got served. And I guess I look kind of pretty [laughs]. She said, You don't-- say, you don't live down here, do you. I said, Mm-mm. She said, Where are you--